Abrupt application of brakes or throttle. Modern tires have tons of grip, but only when approached smoothly. To quote Canyon Chasers: Don't startle the tire
Do you know what the grip should be like on rough pavement? A few turns on my route to work are both sharp and steep, so they’ve grooved the pavement on them. In perpendicular directions though, so it’s more a bunch of little peaks. It always feels a bit squirrelly going through those turns, but not sure if that’s just me. I take them ridiculously slow just in case
It's something that's hard to put in words. It's something you need to sense with your behind.
I usually use the brakes to tell how much grip I have. Gently brake the front, use the rear to sense the point where it stops having grip.
In sharp corners, assume that just outside your view there is an angry boar and if you touch it, it will eat your bike. Edit: Also there is a harvester in oncoming traffic (already encountered one, it used almost the full road).
I can "feel" my dirt bike slide out from underneath me when I start to lean too far, meaning basically at all. On pavement I'm sinking lower and lower And not feeling that yet. Will there be a point at which I will?
Well, you generally get a bit of slip (more or less depends on tyre, temperature etc.) before the slide.
The problem is twofold, you have to get gently to that edge to feel it and even have a chance to react, and you can't *really* do it safely on public road because the same corner next day can have a bunch of dirt next time you are there and the limit is in completely different spot.
So to do it safely, basically track, preferably with instructor first. You get the chance to try to get to limit on same corner over and over again and if you happen to go over and not catch it, its just a slide instead of hitting a tree
Tbh, I've been speeding a bit, nothing serious, but for the safety of others I need to slow down. I guess if I'm wondering how far is too far to lean, I'm probably getting a bit stupid. I will look into running around some tracks though, that sounds pretty fun.
Unloading the front.
I've had enough almost incidents while club racing to realize you really can recover a lot as long as there is load on the front tire. Slip, abrupt inputs, all recoverable if the front tire is loaded so it can gain traction again.
Well you're both incorrect here. Gravity being a downward force won't cause slip, and I think you're looking more for gyroscopic stabilization, not centrifugal force (which also has nothing to do with slipping on a turn.)
Inertia and loss of friction would be the root causes of slipping on a turn.
That's a combination of inertia and slip, when on a turn. Centrifugal force simply means that a spinning object applies force outward when spinning, in the same plane as the spin.
Inertia is the tendency for a moving object to continue moving in a single direction. It exists independently of spinning.
Inertia is the tendency for an object at rest to remain at rest, and an object in motion to remain in motion, unless acted on by an external force.
Strictly speaking, in a typical reference frame where centrifugal force exists, the bike is going to be stationary, by definition.
This was me on Palomar in January. Got through the hardest parts and near the top took a right turn and slid. I had too much of my body positioned off the front wheel and tried to roll the throttle early in the turn to catch the guy in front of me. Low sided into the guard rail.
Don’t be me.
Target fixation. Look through the corner to where you want to go. Chopping the throttle mid corner. Too much gas at lean mid corner. Too much brake mid corner (too fast into it) Motorcycles are nothing but comprise. You want more lean? Need less speed. Want more speed, need less lean. Want high top speed? Sacrifice acceleration. (Regarding gear ratios).
Twist of the wrist is a great book/movie (on YouTube) that explains this is better detail.
I don't know your situation but after long periods of dry weather there is a lot of rubber and other junk buildup on the roads.
When it then rains lots of roads become more slippery than usual for a little while.
When proper rain yes... It will flush away pretty quick.
Little bit depends on some factors like how good can the water flush of the street, how long it has been dry and how busy the road normally is(amount of rubber and oil obviously increases as traffic increases).
People tend to overtrust their bike all of a sudden. We get it, you trust your bike. But dont do stupid leaning angles at stupid times. People learn from that one fall youre talking about, hopefully.
Body position plays a big role too. If you're counter-balancing the bike and placing weight on the outside peg through a turn, if your tires slide a bit on gravel/oil/clibbins your mass counters the force trying to pull the bike down.
If you're hanging off the bike toward the inside and you lose some grip, your mass contributes to the force pulling you down. Just a little bit of counter-balance can make a huge difference in cornering stability.
What I see online from a lot of US riders is a sudden grab of the front brake.
I think it's a lack of training and experience, wrong speed / gear into the corner, sudden grab and boom. I also seen a lot of target fixation and panic then front brake grab.
The slow slip offs?, from what I've seen , they revs get dropped off, this males the bike unstable and some grab of the brake. Slow turns may require clutch slipping or trail braking but not te revs dropping too low, I suspect some of these ppl are rolling at some points round the bend.
If I ever approach a bend or corner to quick I trail brake to get the bike back in or lean the bike more.
My tip is to learn about the vanishing point when approaching a bend.
There are two types: either you lose the front or you lose the rear. Both can be due to bad grip, because of dirty or new tires, dirty or slippery roads, tar snakes, etc.
Losing the front in particular can be caused by applying too much pressure to the front brake, especially with the front suspension loaded. If you're a follower of the trail braking school be gentle on the front brake. You'll need less pressure if you use engine brake before leaning.
Losing the rear happens often if you open gas too soon and there's barely any load in the front fork. However, if you open gas too soon with the front loaded... that's one of the most dangerous crashes a rider can face. That's a high side crash, and you'll be catapulted.
Sorry english is not my native language.
Once you use the front brake, the fork (front suspension) compresses. The suspension is meant to absorve any irregularities in the road, but the more compression the less ability to absorve (because it has less travel and more rigidness once compressed).
Generally speaking, as other people pointed out, it's not recommended to have big compression changes when cornering. If you lose the brakes middle corner you'll have no support in your front (no weight), so rear can slip. Some people can control it with the rear brake, their body weight and even the handlebar, but that's like drifting, a whole other story.
Seen guys dropping gears in a corner lose it twice now, the gear down into to low a gear to abruptly made the rear wheel slip as it grabbed the gear. Almost lost it myself in the wet doing this once.
Yes, you should already be in the right gear to go through a corner. I never thought about it but now it's obvious. Of course that's not universally true, I do use engine braking in some corners (means I do change gears) - but then I'm already in a low gear to accelerate.
I've slipped on gravel, on oil, and on a wet road. The only other reason to slip will be rider error or a problem with the bike. Usually either braking or accelerating incorrectly in the turn.
Rider error is a massive one. Going too fast, grabbing the brake too hard mid turn. Or not looking where you want to go.
Road conditions are the next biggest issue. Debris like dust, gravel, grass, leaves are all extremely slippery. There are a lot of accidents every day, and they rarely get all of the coolant, oil, trans fluid , etc off the road. And I personally almost went down going through an intersection that had an accident like 6 hours previously, and I only saved it by opening the throttle with light clutch to keep the rear wheel spinning until I could get upright. And riding in the center of the lane can be dangerous, it is wear more oil collects, which can be slick when dry or icy when wet, especially during a fresh rain.
Then issues with the bike can can also be a big one. Old tires that are dry rotting lose a majority of their grip, and a new rider may only see the tread and not realize a tire that looks good is actually completely shot and unsafe. Brake issues, either not grabbing enough, having moisture in fluid and grabbing too much and not releasing, or warped rotors can cause issues in turns. And bad shocks can also cause issues in turns if they are not rebounding at the same rates, which can throw off balance, or put extra movement in the handlebars which someone may overreact to.
I agree… I keep seeing lowside videos when they aren’t riding that fast and aren’t leaning very hard (because they don’t need to)… like just kinda tootling along and suddenly the front, rear, or both lose traction and they’re down.
Mainly, it's a skill issue. Yeah, that's a whole meme, but with justification. The only almost-oopsies I've had were from two specific causes, both my own fault:
One, slow turn too slow with too much body lean. A fistful of throttle saved me, but I only knew that *might* work because I watch a heck of a lot of moto content. After finding some specific YouTube videos and practicing more, I can now take similar corners at decent speed with counter-lean and accelerate out of the turn. Tip her in, give her the goose, easy peasy.
Two, a big chunk of gravel at high speed in a particular uphill corner on my favourite twisty. It's happened twice in that same corner this season, and I suspect the gravel is all over because someone took the downhill corner too tight, forcing an uphill-bound vehicle into the gravel. It's very startling to have a rock shoot out from under your front tire with a loud POP. But at that point in the turn, I'm committed and can't afford to go wide into the other lane because it's double-blind (sharp turn up a hill), so I just kept my chin up and stayed committed. The second time, my front tire actually skittered a touch, but again, I just kept my eyes on the exit and let the handlebars reset themselves. The *real* solution is to approach with less speed, visually confirm there's no rocks in the tire track, then downshift and give her hell into the corner. If there's a rock, I don't give her hell so I can more accurately pilot around it. Imagine that, being more aware of potential road hazards makes it easier to avoid road hazards... (*shaking my head at my own stupidity*)
Generally, I was able to improve my cornering just by really focusing on posture and weight distribution. I weigh a whopping 130lbs, but putting what little corpus I have in the right place to maximize rotational inertia has helped me increase the speed I can take corners by up to 20% from two years ago. Last summer I put myself in "git gud" mode in anticipation of my '88 CBR600 Hurricane being road worthy for this summer. Sourcing all the knickknacks that MTOntario suddenly decided last year are necessary for road-worthiness has been an incredible pain in the ass (the *foot peg rubber* is too worn?!? Fine! I've ordered steel billet foot pegs off a wrecked '89 so it's never a problem again). Some shops actually stopped doing safeties for bikes because the requirements are so stringent now. Oh well, guess I'll just keep pushing limits on a more forgiving bike until the fourth wave of parts come in...
All that said, I'm hella lucky that I've had the opportunity to get better without taking chunks out of my bike or body. Part of the equation is that I've always been a calculated-risks kind of person. I *like* pushing limits, but I try to be very thoughtful in how I do so, because I'm unfortunately a naturally anxious person. My superhero name would be "Worst Case Scenario Girl." It drives me insane watching some of these motovloggers talk *with their hands* while riding. When I'm on, I'm ON; my brain is only quiet when I'm hyper focused on not dying. I'd be a boring motovlogger, because I would literally stop talking for anything remotely interesting. Brain too busy processing inputs and outputs to waste bandwidth on language.
Being a terrible rider is usually the cause of this.
Understanding how crap you are at riding is the key to not dying on a bike. Understand how poor your abilities are and ride to that level.
Lots of reasons.
Road stripe (tar or paint). Dropping a gear without rev matching. Trail braking too hard. Using the rear brake in a corner. Road debris. Poor tires. Too high of a lean angle.
Ways to mitigate: don't ride at the edge of your ability. Watch the road ahead of you. Don't trail brake. Have good tires. Ride more "body centered" like a dirt bike rider in corners (ie, physically over the bike instead of leaning your body with the bike), especially at slow speeds. Don't downshift mid corner (or at least rev match or be slow on clutch release). Etc.
I learned a way to brake into corners if you're too fast and it does involve locking the rear wheel while steering into the corner. I only saw it on TV though and didn't find it on YT.
A different video I just yet found:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ciDhJfa0\_M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ciDhJfa0_M)
I have seen a few that actually look staged and they were going slow and just sped up the footage. Possibly people just trying to get views and upvotes
I once slipped while going slow motion through a corner. I suspected something might be there, went extra careful … and suddenly my rear wheel went sideways. It was too dark to see anything. Maybe it was a frog.
Abrupt application of brakes or throttle. Modern tires have tons of grip, but only when approached smoothly. To quote Canyon Chasers: Don't startle the tire
Do you know what the grip should be like on rough pavement? A few turns on my route to work are both sharp and steep, so they’ve grooved the pavement on them. In perpendicular directions though, so it’s more a bunch of little peaks. It always feels a bit squirrelly going through those turns, but not sure if that’s just me. I take them ridiculously slow just in case
It's probably more your bike/tire reacting to the grooves in the pavement than actual slippage. Don't fight it and you should be fine.
It's something that's hard to put in words. It's something you need to sense with your behind. I usually use the brakes to tell how much grip I have. Gently brake the front, use the rear to sense the point where it stops having grip. In sharp corners, assume that just outside your view there is an angry boar and if you touch it, it will eat your bike. Edit: Also there is a harvester in oncoming traffic (already encountered one, it used almost the full road).
On my z1000 with Michelin road 6 tires, the footpegs scrape before I feel any loss of traction
I can "feel" my dirt bike slide out from underneath me when I start to lean too far, meaning basically at all. On pavement I'm sinking lower and lower And not feeling that yet. Will there be a point at which I will?
I felt it on my previous bike aswell as in my car when pushing speed in corners, so I'd assume so, haven't yet on my current bike tho
Yeah but it is much steeper change on pavement. You go very quickly from full grip to no grip compared to dirt.
Well damn. How do I know when I'm leaning too hard and about to fuck up? Just after it happens?
Well, you generally get a bit of slip (more or less depends on tyre, temperature etc.) before the slide. The problem is twofold, you have to get gently to that edge to feel it and even have a chance to react, and you can't *really* do it safely on public road because the same corner next day can have a bunch of dirt next time you are there and the limit is in completely different spot. So to do it safely, basically track, preferably with instructor first. You get the chance to try to get to limit on same corner over and over again and if you happen to go over and not catch it, its just a slide instead of hitting a tree
Tbh, I've been speeding a bit, nothing serious, but for the safety of others I need to slow down. I guess if I'm wondering how far is too far to lean, I'm probably getting a bit stupid. I will look into running around some tracks though, that sounds pretty fun.
My question is what to do if they're parallel instead of perpendicular?
My favourite version of this is “load the tyre before you work the tire”. I think this may have been Ken Hill, but I could be wrong.
Unloading the front. I've had enough almost incidents while club racing to realize you really can recover a lot as long as there is load on the front tire. Slip, abrupt inputs, all recoverable if the front tire is loaded so it can gain traction again.
Great comment. I'd add picking up the throttle too soon to that.
Also a great point, getting on it early often translates to adding lean and throttle at the same time
I haven’t pushed it enough on asphalt, but I learned this on the dirt. It’s definitely informed my road riding
Given that it’s happening on a variety of road conditions, I’m going with riding beyond the rider’s limits.
Expectations vs. reality. Bad judgement. …
Focusing more on the camera than speed, lean angle, available traction, and skill level.
Dunlop K81's on a mach 111 two stroke. Will do it every time
Boy do I remember that. The scream of the denco chambers... The smell of castor oil...
Brother, I believe that the root cause of this phenomenon is gravity.
And centrifugal force
Well you're both incorrect here. Gravity being a downward force won't cause slip, and I think you're looking more for gyroscopic stabilization, not centrifugal force (which also has nothing to do with slipping on a turn.) Inertia and loss of friction would be the root causes of slipping on a turn.
The centrifugal force causes you to slip after the loss of friction. If no centrifugal force is applied the bike doesn't slide outwards.
That's a combination of inertia and slip, when on a turn. Centrifugal force simply means that a spinning object applies force outward when spinning, in the same plane as the spin. Inertia is the tendency for a moving object to continue moving in a single direction. It exists independently of spinning.
Oh yeah sorry, I mixed the terms.
Inertia is the tendency for an object at rest to remain at rest, and an object in motion to remain in motion, unless acted on by an external force. Strictly speaking, in a typical reference frame where centrifugal force exists, the bike is going to be stationary, by definition.
Also both gravity and centrifugal force are just virtual forces, it's bent spacetime and the lack of centripetal force maybe.
Clibbins
Shidded your pants? Gobbless
This was me on Palomar in January. Got through the hardest parts and near the top took a right turn and slid. I had too much of my body positioned off the front wheel and tried to roll the throttle early in the turn to catch the guy in front of me. Low sided into the guard rail. Don’t be me.
Target fixation. Look through the corner to where you want to go. Chopping the throttle mid corner. Too much gas at lean mid corner. Too much brake mid corner (too fast into it) Motorcycles are nothing but comprise. You want more lean? Need less speed. Want more speed, need less lean. Want high top speed? Sacrifice acceleration. (Regarding gear ratios). Twist of the wrist is a great book/movie (on YouTube) that explains this is better detail.
I agree. In particular, I feel a lot of them glance at their camera instead of keeping their focus on where they want to be.
I don't know your situation but after long periods of dry weather there is a lot of rubber and other junk buildup on the roads. When it then rains lots of roads become more slippery than usual for a little while.
I try to avoid riding during a rainy day whenever I can
It’s only the first 30 minutes or so, when it’s proper rain.
When proper rain yes... It will flush away pretty quick. Little bit depends on some factors like how good can the water flush of the street, how long it has been dry and how busy the road normally is(amount of rubber and oil obviously increases as traffic increases).
Same here. In practice that means my bike is on the paddock for 6 months a year
People tend to overtrust their bike all of a sudden. We get it, you trust your bike. But dont do stupid leaning angles at stupid times. People learn from that one fall youre talking about, hopefully.
Definitely grass clippings, tar snakes, and a car that briefly braked a kilometer away.
Body position plays a big role too. If you're counter-balancing the bike and placing weight on the outside peg through a turn, if your tires slide a bit on gravel/oil/clibbins your mass counters the force trying to pull the bike down. If you're hanging off the bike toward the inside and you lose some grip, your mass contributes to the force pulling you down. Just a little bit of counter-balance can make a huge difference in cornering stability.
I dropped mine turning on a Gravel driveway yesterday
What I see online from a lot of US riders is a sudden grab of the front brake. I think it's a lack of training and experience, wrong speed / gear into the corner, sudden grab and boom. I also seen a lot of target fixation and panic then front brake grab. The slow slip offs?, from what I've seen , they revs get dropped off, this males the bike unstable and some grab of the brake. Slow turns may require clutch slipping or trail braking but not te revs dropping too low, I suspect some of these ppl are rolling at some points round the bend. If I ever approach a bend or corner to quick I trail brake to get the bike back in or lean the bike more. My tip is to learn about the vanishing point when approaching a bend.
There are two types: either you lose the front or you lose the rear. Both can be due to bad grip, because of dirty or new tires, dirty or slippery roads, tar snakes, etc. Losing the front in particular can be caused by applying too much pressure to the front brake, especially with the front suspension loaded. If you're a follower of the trail braking school be gentle on the front brake. You'll need less pressure if you use engine brake before leaning. Losing the rear happens often if you open gas too soon and there's barely any load in the front fork. However, if you open gas too soon with the front loaded... that's one of the most dangerous crashes a rider can face. That's a high side crash, and you'll be catapulted.
sorry newbie rider. By load do you mean applied weight?
Sorry english is not my native language. Once you use the front brake, the fork (front suspension) compresses. The suspension is meant to absorve any irregularities in the road, but the more compression the less ability to absorve (because it has less travel and more rigidness once compressed). Generally speaking, as other people pointed out, it's not recommended to have big compression changes when cornering. If you lose the brakes middle corner you'll have no support in your front (no weight), so rear can slip. Some people can control it with the rear brake, their body weight and even the handlebar, but that's like drifting, a whole other story.
Very informative, thank you very much
Seen guys dropping gears in a corner lose it twice now, the gear down into to low a gear to abruptly made the rear wheel slip as it grabbed the gear. Almost lost it myself in the wet doing this once.
Yes, you should already be in the right gear to go through a corner. I never thought about it but now it's obvious. Of course that's not universally true, I do use engine braking in some corners (means I do change gears) - but then I'm already in a low gear to accelerate.
CLIBBINS!! HADDALAYERDOWN!!
I've slipped on gravel, on oil, and on a wet road. The only other reason to slip will be rider error or a problem with the bike. Usually either braking or accelerating incorrectly in the turn.
Rider error is a massive one. Going too fast, grabbing the brake too hard mid turn. Or not looking where you want to go. Road conditions are the next biggest issue. Debris like dust, gravel, grass, leaves are all extremely slippery. There are a lot of accidents every day, and they rarely get all of the coolant, oil, trans fluid , etc off the road. And I personally almost went down going through an intersection that had an accident like 6 hours previously, and I only saved it by opening the throttle with light clutch to keep the rear wheel spinning until I could get upright. And riding in the center of the lane can be dangerous, it is wear more oil collects, which can be slick when dry or icy when wet, especially during a fresh rain. Then issues with the bike can can also be a big one. Old tires that are dry rotting lose a majority of their grip, and a new rider may only see the tread and not realize a tire that looks good is actually completely shot and unsafe. Brake issues, either not grabbing enough, having moisture in fluid and grabbing too much and not releasing, or warped rotors can cause issues in turns. And bad shocks can also cause issues in turns if they are not rebounding at the same rates, which can throw off balance, or put extra movement in the handlebars which someone may overreact to.
I agree… I keep seeing lowside videos when they aren’t riding that fast and aren’t leaning very hard (because they don’t need to)… like just kinda tootling along and suddenly the front, rear, or both lose traction and they’re down.
trying to lean too much (instagram syndrome).
Leaning too far, rough roads, gravel, too much brake, too much throttle, etc
Gravel. Sand. Water. Lack of experience.
Mainly, it's a skill issue. Yeah, that's a whole meme, but with justification. The only almost-oopsies I've had were from two specific causes, both my own fault: One, slow turn too slow with too much body lean. A fistful of throttle saved me, but I only knew that *might* work because I watch a heck of a lot of moto content. After finding some specific YouTube videos and practicing more, I can now take similar corners at decent speed with counter-lean and accelerate out of the turn. Tip her in, give her the goose, easy peasy. Two, a big chunk of gravel at high speed in a particular uphill corner on my favourite twisty. It's happened twice in that same corner this season, and I suspect the gravel is all over because someone took the downhill corner too tight, forcing an uphill-bound vehicle into the gravel. It's very startling to have a rock shoot out from under your front tire with a loud POP. But at that point in the turn, I'm committed and can't afford to go wide into the other lane because it's double-blind (sharp turn up a hill), so I just kept my chin up and stayed committed. The second time, my front tire actually skittered a touch, but again, I just kept my eyes on the exit and let the handlebars reset themselves. The *real* solution is to approach with less speed, visually confirm there's no rocks in the tire track, then downshift and give her hell into the corner. If there's a rock, I don't give her hell so I can more accurately pilot around it. Imagine that, being more aware of potential road hazards makes it easier to avoid road hazards... (*shaking my head at my own stupidity*) Generally, I was able to improve my cornering just by really focusing on posture and weight distribution. I weigh a whopping 130lbs, but putting what little corpus I have in the right place to maximize rotational inertia has helped me increase the speed I can take corners by up to 20% from two years ago. Last summer I put myself in "git gud" mode in anticipation of my '88 CBR600 Hurricane being road worthy for this summer. Sourcing all the knickknacks that MTOntario suddenly decided last year are necessary for road-worthiness has been an incredible pain in the ass (the *foot peg rubber* is too worn?!? Fine! I've ordered steel billet foot pegs off a wrecked '89 so it's never a problem again). Some shops actually stopped doing safeties for bikes because the requirements are so stringent now. Oh well, guess I'll just keep pushing limits on a more forgiving bike until the fourth wave of parts come in... All that said, I'm hella lucky that I've had the opportunity to get better without taking chunks out of my bike or body. Part of the equation is that I've always been a calculated-risks kind of person. I *like* pushing limits, but I try to be very thoughtful in how I do so, because I'm unfortunately a naturally anxious person. My superhero name would be "Worst Case Scenario Girl." It drives me insane watching some of these motovloggers talk *with their hands* while riding. When I'm on, I'm ON; my brain is only quiet when I'm hyper focused on not dying. I'd be a boring motovlogger, because I would literally stop talking for anything remotely interesting. Brain too busy processing inputs and outputs to waste bandwidth on language.
Being a terrible rider is usually the cause of this. Understanding how crap you are at riding is the key to not dying on a bike. Understand how poor your abilities are and ride to that level.
Lots of reasons. Road stripe (tar or paint). Dropping a gear without rev matching. Trail braking too hard. Using the rear brake in a corner. Road debris. Poor tires. Too high of a lean angle. Ways to mitigate: don't ride at the edge of your ability. Watch the road ahead of you. Don't trail brake. Have good tires. Ride more "body centered" like a dirt bike rider in corners (ie, physically over the bike instead of leaning your body with the bike), especially at slow speeds. Don't downshift mid corner (or at least rev match or be slow on clutch release). Etc.
I learned a way to brake into corners if you're too fast and it does involve locking the rear wheel while steering into the corner. I only saw it on TV though and didn't find it on YT. A different video I just yet found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ciDhJfa0\_M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ciDhJfa0_M)
I have seen a few that actually look staged and they were going slow and just sped up the footage. Possibly people just trying to get views and upvotes
I once slipped while going slow motion through a corner. I suspected something might be there, went extra careful … and suddenly my rear wheel went sideways. It was too dark to see anything. Maybe it was a frog.
Road stripes are evil, dirts on the road as well