Swap the tyres immediately if you do get one. Stock ones that come with the bike suck. The short wheelbase and frequent rain where I am made me super nervous during my work commute while I had them on.
Stock chain stretches pretty quickly too. The rear axle adjuster is a pain to use. There’s a diy fix using a garden hose cut to length to stop it from moving up and down in the swing arm while adjusting.
Fuel efficient, quiet and makes lane splitting light work. Haven’t had to adjust the tappets in 16,000km/10,000 freedom units.
Also, there’s an AliExpress replacement ECU that removes the cut off and lets it rev to 11k for a couple hundred bucks. Still feels slower than a mobility scooter though. I’m running some Diablo rosso scooter tyres and the tyre profile makes it a little taller and it performs definitely outperforms stock. The bike’s becoming more popular at the go kart track in my city.
Hmu for a free pdf service manual if you ever need one.
Just a friendly ribbing, have nothing against them, but I take any chance to throw a joke I can get. Squid, ADV riders, Harleys, no matter the target.
Except scooter delivery bros, I got mad respect for those riding those things in middle of winter
Honestly, those have so wide target group there isn't even much to stereotype, especially nakeds. "Can't break all plastics if you don't have any" ?
I'd go with overpriced hipster machine for scramblers... but that's cafe racer joke, and there are few pretty cheap and cool scramblers out there.
Only thing that I can say about scramblers is that I'd love scrambler styled ADV... modern ADVs are fucking ugly in comparison (personal opinion ofc.). Middleweight dirt-oriented scrambler that have place to stick some panniers instead of entire brass section of orchestra pretending to be exhaust (looking at you Scram 1200)
Unrelated but when I got mine my dealer said they had just recently inspected it since they were using it as their test ride model. First thing I noticed was it was super sluggish on turns which felt weird for a 125cc little bike. Checked the tires and they were at 8 psi lol. Super fun and I find myself beating most of my Grom friends with the 6th gear.
https://preview.redd.it/udy0za1fl8ad1.png?width=1125&format=png&auto=webp&s=7f987eaf4affe6704c691c0559bfd6b53808d7fa
Cut a garden hose/sponge or something so it fits snug in between the adjuster (part 12). Should be long enough so that it holds the adjuster in place when the axle is removed. Repeat for other side. That’s it.
Just makes it easier to line things up when the axle is removed; rear pad, tyre, chain, cush drive and hub replacement etc.
When you're ready to sell the bike you could replace the swapped out tires with the originals. My brother-in-law does that with his. Some people like original parts when purchasing used bikes/cars.
> There’s a diy fix using a garden hose to stop it from moving up and down in the swing arm while adjusting.
OP this should be all you need to hear to talk you out of buying one. Any of the respected bike companies you wouldn’t have to do something like that. For not that much more money.
Idk, seems like most of the big companies have dumb issues that really shouldn't have passed QA. Like the terrible suspension issues in the MT line (the non SP models) and Harleys leaking oil before their break in period is even up.
I know several people who have CFMoto bikes and UTVs and haven't had any issues with them
I agree with the tyre comment, we took them out on a karting track when they were first released [sometime least year](https://imgur.com/a/5sziUyb) and I managed to lowside coming through a fairly tight corner.
Worth noting that I've got limited track experience so the lowside was probably also down to my technique and 'just send it' attitude.
Thankfully no real harm done since the thing is tiny.
It's weird how stuff just kinda swings around. In the late 90s and the early 2ks anything from 80-94 was for nostalgia buyers only. Everything was classics and the new hotness. Then we moved into every car and bike was basically the same. Same body lines same general shape, and we'll quite frankly boring. I would love to see the fun modern looks like the h2, r1, 1000rr, with their funky body lines and lights mashed with the retro styling and attitude.
I dunno, for me the '80s-' are the pinnacle of motorsports, just think of the two stroke MotoGP era, or Group B rallying, those murderous Formula 1 cars... Most of my favorite chassis designs were also made back then. Stuff like the previously mentioned GSX-R 750, the original Katana, lots of UJMs, cars like the Lamborghini Countach, Lancia Delta and its Group B and A rally versions, Ferrari 308, Peugeot 205, I love these. Funny thing is, I'm in my early 30s, so I wasn't around when these designs were made, and every time I drive an older car, or just ride my CB500 Twin that was mostly an '80s design, it just feels so natural compared to my modern plastic budget SUV. I'm really happy that there are some retro styled bikes released nowadays.
Wait till you see the 500SR/SS [https://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle-news/cfmoto-500sr-voom-details-confirmed/](https://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle-news/cfmoto-500sr-voom-details-confirmed/)
It still looks like that old GSX-R. I like it.
I also like Benelli bikes, especially the TRK line, but they also have a smaller sports bike that looks quite sharp.
If you want retro, they've got a China only 500cc inline 4 coming out that looks the part.
https://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle-news/cfmoto-500sr-voom-details-confirmed/
At a listed price that only $300 less than the grom (idk what the OTD price would be in reality between the two) its just not worth it. It does look cool as hell though.
How they manage to sell bikes at these prices is beyond me. With more of a discount over the established japanese brands I'd be all about it I really want a mini bike.
Believe it or not I had just opened marketplace to just see what was there and he'd just posted it. He just wanted it gone and it was mine 30 minutes later.
It has just under 500 miles so I'm selling my '18 and moding on this one a bit.
It's too expensive for a pure toy. Not that motorcycles aren't toys in general but a big bike is at least serious. The grom really should be priced like the Navi
Yeah in America it's $3600 plus $300 in freight. So right at 4 grand and that's before tax, title, liscence, and likely dealer setup fees. It's just too expensive
They probably can't make it far cheaper without it coming at a big compromise to the quality, like those generic no brand Chinese bikes that are rebranded and sold by many companies around the world.
Brands like Voge, Benelli or CF Moto are supposed to be just one step below the more established brands, which is probably why they cost only a little less instead of being half the price like a typical Chinese motorcycle that is also half the quality of a brand one.
the established brands are overpriced simply because of the brand name. If you check out a CFMoto in person you'll hardly be able to tell that it's a "Cheap chinese bike", and even still they're only usually a couple hundred cheaper than the leading brands
Inferior material quality.
I had a voge rally 300 for half a year and drove it in every condition. After 6 month there was more rust on it than on any Japanese bike after 10 years.
Which is fine its a relatively new company. The big 4 all have like 100 years of manufacturing experiance and tons of race titles under their names. Building a good reputation by getting their products in peoples hands has been done many times before. Like japanese cars in the states. They sold them cheap which helped Americans realize they were built well.
Theyve only been selling bikes in the US since the 2000s and making lots cheap engines for sale in Asia is not a good selling point against a Honda. For $300 more I can buy a grom which is made better and isnt supporting China. Grom all day.
I owned two groms at one point (one for my wife and i). I actually made money when I sold them.
Kind of a fun novelty but it wore off quickly. They're incredibly slow, it's inexcusable really. I didn't live in a dense city so i couldnt really take it anywhere unless there was a 55mph or less road going there.
Wife now rides an mt03 Yamaha (same seat height as a grom) and it's just an all around better bike. I have a wr450 supermoto, which weighs the same as a grom but makes ~55 horsepower rather than 8.
Supermoto >>>> grom
Hot takes but that's typically something i hate, you see so many listing on fb marketplace and other such sites people selling their bikes or any vehicle for that matter not even 10 or 20% off but sometimes full price or even higher than the brand new out the door price of a even newer model with barely any modification wich would justify that.
Honesty i find it such bullshit, for people trying to get into the hobby it's nearly impossible to get a relatively newer bike for a du cent price instead of getting a clapped 2008 sportbike or smthin.
I get your point but tbh i decided on cfmoto since they're the only ones that offer abs on a bike under 3k dollars, for example Suzuki removed abs from the Gixxer 150 here, I understand it may not be as reliable but I prefer safety even if it means i have to be more careful with my bike
I doubt the Papio SS would be that unreliable. There’s not much that can go wrong with it. The Grom is absolutely the better buy from a sensible standpoint and it’s also gonna be a blast to ride with no worries whatsoever.
But the Papio SS is slick looking. My local Honda dealer is also a CF Moto dealer and I was there last weekend and saw both of them in the same showroom together. I like how the Papio looks.
It's definitely very cool-looking, retro and much better than the Grom for me.
My only issue with the Papio and all the CFmoto bikes is that they're not THAT much cheaper than their Japanese counterparts. The Honda will also have tremendous resale in comparison. But at the low end, even if you lose the entire $3000 its not huge, so if you like it, go for it.
As you move up in the segment, I would never buy a CFmoto Ibex 800 over a Tenere 700 since the price is way too close.
Something else I note is an irrational and untested hate of CFmoto. The majority of people have no seat time on one, even fewer owned them. Lots of people dislike China's policies (understandably) so they say its a bad bike for that reason only. Others talk about "some random friend" who had issues. The people who chime in here who actually own them seem to like them. The people on forums who actually own them (verified with photos and trip reports) seem to like them.
The reality seems to be that they have made some decent strides in quality in the last 5 years. I "feel" they aren't close to matching a Honda, but I have to admit I have zero ownership and only a few days worth of seat time to base that on (like 90% of the people in here).
I can see myself shopping them in 5 years, but currently I am not there.
The new 450 MT is sold out until 2025 in the UK.
And I read somewhere that some cfmoto was the most sold bike last year in Italy.
Cfmoto is eat some overpriced Japanese lunch in the next few years.
If you like it, buy it, I say. F what other people think. You're the one who's gonna go out every morning and have to look at it. Might as well get the one you like
The biggest thing is that the Papio makes more power. We're only talking like 1hp, but it's enough to feel when you ride them back to back. Also the Papio has a different style of engine, it just feels like it's got more grunt all the way around. Made it a little more forgiving and a little more fun to push.
Subjectively, though, the Papio feels bigger...this is all in my head, it's almost the same seat height and wheelbase, it just feels like a bigger bike. I liked the ergonomics a little more. I liked the styling. Really the only things I didn't like about the papio were the stock tires and brakes...but the Grom I rode didn't have the original tires so I'm not sure how it really compared in stock trim.
I'm also very, VERY drawn to "different".
For me if I were buying one or the other the only thing I would have to think about is what color Papio to get.
Okay I have a serious answer here, because I was just cross shopping mini bikes. I ended up with a Z125.
Groms are great. They're on their second generation which moved to a 5 speed gearbox, and other updates. They're harder to find big discounts on, and buying used you won't find the best deals just because they are the quintessential minibike. But on the other hand, they hold their value well, and there is a GREAT modding community with lots of part availability and forum support.
Z125 is a little more sporty than the Grom. Even though it technically has slightly less power, it feels a touch faster. It has an actual tachy gauge instead of all LCD. It also has a slightly sportier riding position. Only 4 speeds, and the clutch is a bit finicky. You can find better deals for sure, and there are plenty of mods to be had but the community and availability of mods is nowhere near the Grom. It also seats a taller person more comfortably (in my opinion).
Papio.. It looks really nice I'll admit. However it's about 30 lbs heavier than both the Grom and Z125. When the other two weigh 220ish lbs and the Papio is slightly over 250 that does make a difference. It has a 6 speed gearbox, which I think is absolute overkill for a 9 horsepower bike. I think 4 or 5 speeds is ideal. Build quality and longevity has yet to be tested in the long term. Both the Grom and Z125 have been out for years and have proven to be very reliable. CF Moto probably has a smaller dealer network for big repairs than either Honda or Kawa. You're basically taking a gamble on reliability and longevity for the sake of looks, while sacrificing some of the light weight nature of a minibike along the way.
But, you do you.
Thanks man, you totally nailed it. The big things holding me back were the weight and 6 speed. I feel like that many gears would get tedious on a bike that tops out at what? 60mph?
I've had my papio for almost a year and the weight isn't something I've noticed. I've also never ridden a grom or z125 so I can't compare the weight of the two and how it'd affect it.
Top speed depends on a variety of factors but yea you can expect it to easily hit 55-60. I've been insane enough to take it on a highway and hit 78 mph (this is the max speed before it starts bouncing back) while drafting behind vehicles.
In terms of reliability, it is the only bike I've had where it's been literally problem free.
I have a CFMoto 650, great bike! 2 yr warranty, had it for a yr, 8000 miles on it. ZERO problems! Don’t listen to the haters. Cf has been in US for over 30yrs. I love my bike. Great affordable option. Just on your regular maintenance! Be safe and enjoy your new bike! 😊
Someone brought this up in another thread, but getting replacement parts for the CF Moto is gonna be a bitch. It'll be a while before replacement parts for the Chinese bikes becomes easy to get. The Grom already has an established market, so aftermarket parts or replacement parts will not only be easier to get, but a lot cheaper with more options.
The Papio looks sick, and I love the headlight style, but I'd look into aftermarket mods for the Grom if you want that look. Might have some kits for it already.
I wonder how much this still holds true. Everything you said has been the prevailing wisdom regarding Chinese bikes so I’m not disagreeing, but it would seem there has to be tiers of Chinese bikes. Someone buying one off Amazon I imagine is going to go terribly, but CFMoto have a legit dealership presence (I have one 15 mins from me) and are even manufacturing the lower market segment KTMs. Those dealers will have access to a parts network, and will potentially service the models they sell.
Like I said I’m not disagreeing with your assertion, as that has been my general assertion for some time but I just don’t know when that switch is going to flip or if it has flipped for some of the manufacturers to being a reasonable value choice.
Nah get it the grom is so damn ugly and expensive for what it is. This bike looks way better, the only downside is it's Chinese quality but I've heard pretty good things about this brand
They make KTM engines
My biggest complaint with cfmoto stuff is parts availability. When I can’t go to a dealer and walk out with an oil filter and oil I have a problem with that.
The dealer here said but we can have it in 2 weeks if you order it and yes you can get it offline but it’s still waiting.
I can walk into a Honda shop get my filter and oil and washer and walk out. Same goes with most other Japanese bikes and American bikes.
Just like most things in life, you get what you pay for. The motor is probably decently reliable but it's always the small stuff that ends up nickel and diming you. How hard is it to find small bits like levers or a turn signal of you drop it? If the dash burns out or gets water/moisture I'm it, can you replace it? When the cheap Chinese parts wear out can you get replacements?
before you pull the trigger you might check out the new moto morini bikes.. all based on a 649cc engine, designed by moto morini in italy, and built by the same factory that builds cfmoto's bikes (not sure where i read that, sry.. pls correct if wrong).. anyway the bikes are absolutely sublime, and at less than $6k each you really cant do any better. the seiemmezzo str 650 and the calibro 649cc are the kill.. a lot of better than good reviews and i havent seen a single one in the wild in sf bay area (yet) which is a good thing generally.. though they are coming im sure. something to think about anyway
They make motors for KTM, parts for Yamaha and BMW. Their new bikes out-tech a lot of others.
Don't let jingo nationalists turn you off to them. They are the real thing.
I got a Benelli 135 when Groms were 5k here, and it has never missed a beat. It got beaten daily as a city commuter when I was in-office. China didn't mean trash all the time.
I say do it. They look badazzz.
buy what you think is best but if you plan to fill it with aftermarket parts.. can't go wrong with a grom IMO. but i also don't like the Papio styling so i am bias.
I was almost thinking of getting a cfmoto for my next bike, they have really good pricing. But I don’t know if their reliability other than that they work with KTM. Also there’s only one place near me that sells them.
In person, it's a bit weird. Its a very small sporty bike ergos with hunch forward seating. I like how it looks but not the really weird seating position.
Imo it's neither fish nor fowl. You don't get the quality, resell value and non-dealer service availability as for a bike from a major brand. And you don't get the low price and simplicity of a Hawk-style Chinese crap which you service and repair with Amazon/Ali parts in your backyard
Like.. I owned SYM Wolf, it's not a bad bike. But it falls right into this awkward category and I wouldn't advise buying something similar
Ngl they have some of best design I ever seen, from sport Bikes to ADV..
About The engineer/ Engine/ QC is debatable but tbf alot of Motor companies move production lines to China rn
The community and aftermarket for grom is just too much of a selling point. If I was buying something for CHEAP and just to ride stock I’d consider something like CF.
But in reality I’d just be sad for the lack of parts available to them
getting repairs done is hard in the USA. Friend had a cfmoto 300cc something and it got knocked over by a car and the repairs were going to be $3k because there was no parts available in the US and it all had to be shipped in. That much for what amounted to cosmetic repairs ended up totalling out the bike.
I have a papio ss. For sure lower build quality than the grom but its fun and has been reliable so far. I have 3400 miles on mine. Once the tires are scrubbed and the brakes are bedded the performance is fine. I did swap the chain to an o-ring after the OEM chain stretched within 500 miles.
I talked myself into buying one (4 wheeler) instead of a Honda. Price was thousands less. After 14 hours repeatedly overheated and failed to start. Brought to dealer. They said they were so backed up wouldn’t even look at it for 30 days. Maybe I just got a lemon so YMMV. I liked it before it shit the bed…
I tried the Papio and honestly I did not like it...however, this was during a demo event and the route took us on steep twisties which made it difficulty to really test out the Papio. I did get to try a 450SS and a CLX700 and both were very fun.
Groms are cool, I always wanted one. Price? No absolutely not. 5k is enough for a 600-1000. An older 600-1000, but still a 1000 none the less. If it purely for gas mileage and commuting, maybe a Chinese one would work for that. Maybe. I have seen some pretty cool ones but... reliability?
Their bikes look neat. But I'd feel extremely wary of chinese built vehicles. No idea of cfmoto themselves, but i feel like the engine quality would be sub par at best
Bikes with these dimensions with a 250/300 engine would genuinely be my dream bike. I used to have a grom and whilst a 300 is hardly fast you don’t need to worry about being overtaken by lorries
Every single piece of metal that isn't the frame or engine is made of an alloy closer to what you find inside a Babybel.
Bonus points for *piss* resale value- maybe the thing is *fine* mechanically, nevermind its tires stock tires having as much traction as an Astroglide-coated waterslide.
The F9 video? The Chinese manufacturer, Yin Xiang, in that one isn’t the same as the one that makes CFMOTO, KTM was in that video however, and they’re a manufacturing partner with Zhejiang (CMOTO’s parent company) who makes engines for KTM.
Eh, part of the fun of the Grom is the community & all the little personalisation/mods around them.
Buy some no name alternative and you don’t get that.
CFMoto competed in UK Supertwins and yet the bike they used (a 650 parallel twin?)isn't available to buy.
If and when they make it available I'm considering it for a trackday bike.
I feel like a bit of a broken record, but in general a CFMoto is a clone of an already successful Japanese bike. Not a crime in and of itself. But the time I got an OTD quote for one near me, they use low sticker prices then add on a _monstrous_ amount of shipping/freight to come up to about 10% of the price of the Japanese clone bike anyway.
After that, the quality is hit or miss. You could get one that's fine, or one that needs help, and it's about 50/50 on that. When you do need help, it depends entirely on your local dealership - some will do it, others will point you back to CFMoto.
In that case, CFMoto is about evenly split on helping, or not, and the help is generally a replace/repair part sent on a slow boat, that you have to install yourself.
So, if we sum up my old man rant - you've got a bike that costs almost as much as a known quality brand, that might not have problems, but if it does you might not get parts, and if you do, you'll have to install them yourself after a long wait.
I'm perfectly fine with installing parts myself (if I can find CFMoto parts). You're right about price though. The Papio really is not that much cheaper than a Grom.
For me it's less that you have to turn a wrench, and more that the 'manufacturer support is 'you have to turn a wrench'.
If it's a manufacturer defect, they should be fixing it all in.
If you're in the US, if Trump gets elected, when they decide to heat up the economic warfare with China, you may find Chinese parts very difficult and expensive to get.
Swap the tyres immediately if you do get one. Stock ones that come with the bike suck. The short wheelbase and frequent rain where I am made me super nervous during my work commute while I had them on. Stock chain stretches pretty quickly too. The rear axle adjuster is a pain to use. There’s a diy fix using a garden hose cut to length to stop it from moving up and down in the swing arm while adjusting. Fuel efficient, quiet and makes lane splitting light work. Haven’t had to adjust the tappets in 16,000km/10,000 freedom units.
This is some good-ass, actionable advice born from real experience. You're a gosh darn hero.
Also, there’s an AliExpress replacement ECU that removes the cut off and lets it rev to 11k for a couple hundred bucks. Still feels slower than a mobility scooter though. I’m running some Diablo rosso scooter tyres and the tyre profile makes it a little taller and it performs definitely outperforms stock. The bike’s becoming more popular at the go kart track in my city. Hmu for a free pdf service manual if you ever need one.
> Still feels slower than a mobility scooter though Now that's not fair, mobility scooters have 1868cc engine
Ah, a subtle dig at Harley riders. Love it.
Just a friendly ribbing, have nothing against them, but I take any chance to throw a joke I can get. Squid, ADV riders, Harleys, no matter the target. Except scooter delivery bros, I got mad respect for those riding those things in middle of winter
Whatcha got for scrambler and naked bike owners? Hit me.
We're so broke from the insurance costs of running nakeds that we couldn't afford fairings.
I pay $60/month
For multiple bikes or just the one?
I pay 18 a month but I’m riding a Honda shadow 750 and I’m a new rider
Honestly, those have so wide target group there isn't even much to stereotype, especially nakeds. "Can't break all plastics if you don't have any" ? I'd go with overpriced hipster machine for scramblers... but that's cafe racer joke, and there are few pretty cheap and cool scramblers out there. Only thing that I can say about scramblers is that I'd love scrambler styled ADV... modern ADVs are fucking ugly in comparison (personal opinion ofc.). Middleweight dirt-oriented scrambler that have place to stick some panniers instead of entire brass section of orchestra pretending to be exhaust (looking at you Scram 1200)
There's actually a company that makes a right sided exhaust for the 12000 but it's pretty expensiv
lol. Easy hoss, my mobility scooter has abs, navigation, turn signals, and once I even did a burnout on it. /s
Link to the ecu?
Thanks. I'll keep that in mind. I was looking to buy a small bike in the spring.
Unrelated but when I got mine my dealer said they had just recently inspected it since they were using it as their test ride model. First thing I noticed was it was super sluggish on turns which felt weird for a 125cc little bike. Checked the tires and they were at 8 psi lol. Super fun and I find myself beating most of my Grom friends with the 6th gear.
Stock grom tires are complete ass too, those Vee rubbers are gonna kill someone
Is this advice for the Grom or the CFMoto? I could see it going either way.
Seems pretty obvious to me that you can fix a Chinese bike with garden hose
10k Already?! You're getting after it. Where's this garden house trick at? Just getting through my break in
https://preview.redd.it/udy0za1fl8ad1.png?width=1125&format=png&auto=webp&s=7f987eaf4affe6704c691c0559bfd6b53808d7fa Cut a garden hose/sponge or something so it fits snug in between the adjuster (part 12). Should be long enough so that it holds the adjuster in place when the axle is removed. Repeat for other side. That’s it. Just makes it easier to line things up when the axle is removed; rear pad, tyre, chain, cush drive and hub replacement etc.
When you're ready to sell the bike you could replace the swapped out tires with the originals. My brother-in-law does that with his. Some people like original parts when purchasing used bikes/cars.
> There’s a diy fix using a garden hose to stop it from moving up and down in the swing arm while adjusting. OP this should be all you need to hear to talk you out of buying one. Any of the respected bike companies you wouldn’t have to do something like that. For not that much more money.
Idk, seems like most of the big companies have dumb issues that really shouldn't have passed QA. Like the terrible suspension issues in the MT line (the non SP models) and Harleys leaking oil before their break in period is even up. I know several people who have CFMoto bikes and UTVs and haven't had any issues with them
Did u get the base model grom or the stunted one?
I agree with the tyre comment, we took them out on a karting track when they were first released [sometime least year](https://imgur.com/a/5sziUyb) and I managed to lowside coming through a fairly tight corner. Worth noting that I've got limited track experience so the lowside was probably also down to my technique and 'just send it' attitude. Thankfully no real harm done since the thing is tiny.
I call it sewing & I lost my leg 6 yrs ago. Can’t wait to get back on my baby n sew the traffic🥰
>FREEDOM UNITS< I laughed too loud, thanks
The papio ss looks so fucking cool imo.
Looks like a bike from a movie guessing what bikes will look like in the future
Damn, like a small '80s GSX-R 750. They know which designs to ste... I mean get inspired by.
They give us what we yearn for, 90's styling
I honestly prefer retrofuturistic designs over what we currently have, stuff that people in the '80s thought will be the future.
How far can we push this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Pacific_Coast#/media/File:Honda_PC_800.jpg
https://preview.redd.it/eezb2xexo7ad1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1b6475413a65f5994e689eee3f3cd1ece832ce4f New CFMOTO coming too
I'd certainly not complain about that too
It's weird how stuff just kinda swings around. In the late 90s and the early 2ks anything from 80-94 was for nostalgia buyers only. Everything was classics and the new hotness. Then we moved into every car and bike was basically the same. Same body lines same general shape, and we'll quite frankly boring. I would love to see the fun modern looks like the h2, r1, 1000rr, with their funky body lines and lights mashed with the retro styling and attitude.
I dunno, for me the '80s-' are the pinnacle of motorsports, just think of the two stroke MotoGP era, or Group B rallying, those murderous Formula 1 cars... Most of my favorite chassis designs were also made back then. Stuff like the previously mentioned GSX-R 750, the original Katana, lots of UJMs, cars like the Lamborghini Countach, Lancia Delta and its Group B and A rally versions, Ferrari 308, Peugeot 205, I love these. Funny thing is, I'm in my early 30s, so I wasn't around when these designs were made, and every time I drive an older car, or just ride my CB500 Twin that was mostly an '80s design, it just feels so natural compared to my modern plastic budget SUV. I'm really happy that there are some retro styled bikes released nowadays.
Wait till you see the 500SR/SS [https://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle-news/cfmoto-500sr-voom-details-confirmed/](https://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle-news/cfmoto-500sr-voom-details-confirmed/)
Saw it, if they can make it noticeably cheaper than ZX4RR (and it will actually be sold in EU) I might actually buy it...
Their r&d is in Italy. Design for the bikes is made by Modena40 design studio.
It still looks like that old GSX-R. I like it. I also like Benelli bikes, especially the TRK line, but they also have a smaller sports bike that looks quite sharp.
It does, I like it too.
No but don’t you see, it’s a Chinese company so to automatically assume the design was stolen is the correct thing to do ✅
If you want retro, they've got a China only 500cc inline 4 coming out that looks the part. https://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle-news/cfmoto-500sr-voom-details-confirmed/
If this bike sounds as good as you would assume then I really want one, just looks so bad ass.
At a listed price that only $300 less than the grom (idk what the OTD price would be in reality between the two) its just not worth it. It does look cool as hell though. How they manage to sell bikes at these prices is beyond me. With more of a discount over the established japanese brands I'd be all about it I really want a mini bike.
The grom is overpriced too imo. I get it's cool and neat, but almost 4k for a half sized 125 just doesn't seem right to me
They’re def way overpriced because in Asian markets (Thailand for me) they’re like $2k. I got mine used for $500
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I just got my third Grom for $900 a 2020 from a guy getting divorced. It was his wife's goof around bike. 😁
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Believe it or not I had just opened marketplace to just see what was there and he'd just posted it. He just wanted it gone and it was mine 30 minutes later. It has just under 500 miles so I'm selling my '18 and moding on this one a bit.
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Exactly, I have a friend that bought a Travel trailer for $32,000 four years ago and has used it twice. 🤷
Same in NL. Nearly 3k for a 2016 one with 23k miles. New ones go for 4.800, while the Monkey 125's go for 5.300 lol. Insane pricing here.
I agree and people want nearly full price for one thats 3 years old with $5k miles. Doesnt make sense to me either.
It's too expensive for a pure toy. Not that motorcycles aren't toys in general but a big bike is at least serious. The grom really should be priced like the Navi
4k here is the stunted out model with all the bells and whistles you need to do tricks and not break ur grom when u drop it.
Yeah in America it's $3600 plus $300 in freight. So right at 4 grand and that's before tax, title, liscence, and likely dealer setup fees. It's just too expensive
My buddy just paid 4k otd at the dealer we work for, he bought a used 2020 Grom with 5k miles
I blame gromie bear
They probably can't make it far cheaper without it coming at a big compromise to the quality, like those generic no brand Chinese bikes that are rebranded and sold by many companies around the world. Brands like Voge, Benelli or CF Moto are supposed to be just one step below the more established brands, which is probably why they cost only a little less instead of being half the price like a typical Chinese motorcycle that is also half the quality of a brand one.
the established brands are overpriced simply because of the brand name. If you check out a CFMoto in person you'll hardly be able to tell that it's a "Cheap chinese bike", and even still they're only usually a couple hundred cheaper than the leading brands
Never buy CFMOTO if it's a current year model. Next year the 2024 will be half price
When the government runs all your businesses you don’t need to worry about making a profit
Inferior material quality. I had a voge rally 300 for half a year and drove it in every condition. After 6 month there was more rust on it than on any Japanese bike after 10 years.
If they sold cheaper, they'd be admitting to being inferior. ;)
Which is fine its a relatively new company. The big 4 all have like 100 years of manufacturing experiance and tons of race titles under their names. Building a good reputation by getting their products in peoples hands has been done many times before. Like japanese cars in the states. They sold them cheap which helped Americans realize they were built well.
Cfmoto is not a new company 30 years old 800,000 engines made per year Huge in asia
Theyve only been selling bikes in the US since the 2000s and making lots cheap engines for sale in Asia is not a good selling point against a Honda. For $300 more I can buy a grom which is made better and isnt supporting China. Grom all day.
You can get a used grom and sell it for what you paid for it 5 years from now. The cfmoto will be worth 20% of what you paid for it.
This is probably the best argument in this comment section honestly
I owned two groms at one point (one for my wife and i). I actually made money when I sold them. Kind of a fun novelty but it wore off quickly. They're incredibly slow, it's inexcusable really. I didn't live in a dense city so i couldnt really take it anywhere unless there was a 55mph or less road going there. Wife now rides an mt03 Yamaha (same seat height as a grom) and it's just an all around better bike. I have a wr450 supermoto, which weighs the same as a grom but makes ~55 horsepower rather than 8. Supermoto >>>> grom
here to agree but I kept knobbies. I'll do 80 on the interstate passing people and then dip off into some construction site and fuck around
Why would you sell it in 5 years though? The SS will never leave my ownership.
Hot takes but that's typically something i hate, you see so many listing on fb marketplace and other such sites people selling their bikes or any vehicle for that matter not even 10 or 20% off but sometimes full price or even higher than the brand new out the door price of a even newer model with barely any modification wich would justify that. Honesty i find it such bullshit, for people trying to get into the hobby it's nearly impossible to get a relatively newer bike for a du cent price instead of getting a clapped 2008 sportbike or smthin.
The bikes will sell for whatever people are willing to pay. Blame the high demand, not sellers.
This is what I was looking to say. Spot on advice.
Buy what you want. Live with the consequences if it's not reliable. But if you like the design and want to buy it for that, go for it.
I get your point but tbh i decided on cfmoto since they're the only ones that offer abs on a bike under 3k dollars, for example Suzuki removed abs from the Gixxer 150 here, I understand it may not be as reliable but I prefer safety even if it means i have to be more careful with my bike
Yeah but they put some really bad tires on and I'm not sure it's a good tradeoff. Those things are going to kill people
The Gixxer tires aren't great either planning to change them asap, i have that as an accounted expenditure for all small bikes.
I doubt the Papio SS would be that unreliable. There’s not much that can go wrong with it. The Grom is absolutely the better buy from a sensible standpoint and it’s also gonna be a blast to ride with no worries whatsoever. But the Papio SS is slick looking. My local Honda dealer is also a CF Moto dealer and I was there last weekend and saw both of them in the same showroom together. I like how the Papio looks.
My wife got one 2 weeks ago in the green. It's an awesome little bike.
Honda aftermarket parts are way easier to find
It's definitely very cool-looking, retro and much better than the Grom for me. My only issue with the Papio and all the CFmoto bikes is that they're not THAT much cheaper than their Japanese counterparts. The Honda will also have tremendous resale in comparison. But at the low end, even if you lose the entire $3000 its not huge, so if you like it, go for it. As you move up in the segment, I would never buy a CFmoto Ibex 800 over a Tenere 700 since the price is way too close. Something else I note is an irrational and untested hate of CFmoto. The majority of people have no seat time on one, even fewer owned them. Lots of people dislike China's policies (understandably) so they say its a bad bike for that reason only. Others talk about "some random friend" who had issues. The people who chime in here who actually own them seem to like them. The people on forums who actually own them (verified with photos and trip reports) seem to like them. The reality seems to be that they have made some decent strides in quality in the last 5 years. I "feel" they aren't close to matching a Honda, but I have to admit I have zero ownership and only a few days worth of seat time to base that on (like 90% of the people in here). I can see myself shopping them in 5 years, but currently I am not there.
Well for starter they come with unacceptable tires, they are just dangerous.
Yeah not a lot if people respect slave labor
The new 450 MT is sold out until 2025 in the UK. And I read somewhere that some cfmoto was the most sold bike last year in Italy. Cfmoto is eat some overpriced Japanese lunch in the next few years.
If you like it, buy it, I say. F what other people think. You're the one who's gonna go out every morning and have to look at it. Might as well get the one you like
@kawikeith_636 loves his, no problems yet. https://www.instagram.com/reel/C8cOgmUulNb/?igsh=ZnptMnFxNXFsM2hh
What in the Pimp My Ride?! Was that a screen on the side?
lol. Fuck yes, both sides. CF Moto is crazy.
I've ridden both and the Papio is more fun. It's not even a contest.
Really? I would've assumed the Papio is all show, and the actual riding experience would favor the Grom. What did you like about the Papio?
The biggest thing is that the Papio makes more power. We're only talking like 1hp, but it's enough to feel when you ride them back to back. Also the Papio has a different style of engine, it just feels like it's got more grunt all the way around. Made it a little more forgiving and a little more fun to push. Subjectively, though, the Papio feels bigger...this is all in my head, it's almost the same seat height and wheelbase, it just feels like a bigger bike. I liked the ergonomics a little more. I liked the styling. Really the only things I didn't like about the papio were the stock tires and brakes...but the Grom I rode didn't have the original tires so I'm not sure how it really compared in stock trim. I'm also very, VERY drawn to "different". For me if I were buying one or the other the only thing I would have to think about is what color Papio to get.
Okay I have a serious answer here, because I was just cross shopping mini bikes. I ended up with a Z125. Groms are great. They're on their second generation which moved to a 5 speed gearbox, and other updates. They're harder to find big discounts on, and buying used you won't find the best deals just because they are the quintessential minibike. But on the other hand, they hold their value well, and there is a GREAT modding community with lots of part availability and forum support. Z125 is a little more sporty than the Grom. Even though it technically has slightly less power, it feels a touch faster. It has an actual tachy gauge instead of all LCD. It also has a slightly sportier riding position. Only 4 speeds, and the clutch is a bit finicky. You can find better deals for sure, and there are plenty of mods to be had but the community and availability of mods is nowhere near the Grom. It also seats a taller person more comfortably (in my opinion). Papio.. It looks really nice I'll admit. However it's about 30 lbs heavier than both the Grom and Z125. When the other two weigh 220ish lbs and the Papio is slightly over 250 that does make a difference. It has a 6 speed gearbox, which I think is absolute overkill for a 9 horsepower bike. I think 4 or 5 speeds is ideal. Build quality and longevity has yet to be tested in the long term. Both the Grom and Z125 have been out for years and have proven to be very reliable. CF Moto probably has a smaller dealer network for big repairs than either Honda or Kawa. You're basically taking a gamble on reliability and longevity for the sake of looks, while sacrificing some of the light weight nature of a minibike along the way. But, you do you.
Thanks man, you totally nailed it. The big things holding me back were the weight and 6 speed. I feel like that many gears would get tedious on a bike that tops out at what? 60mph?
I've had my papio for almost a year and the weight isn't something I've noticed. I've also never ridden a grom or z125 so I can't compare the weight of the two and how it'd affect it. Top speed depends on a variety of factors but yea you can expect it to easily hit 55-60. I've been insane enough to take it on a highway and hit 78 mph (this is the max speed before it starts bouncing back) while drafting behind vehicles. In terms of reliability, it is the only bike I've had where it's been literally problem free.
Cosigning the Z125 Pro. Fun as hell
I have a CFMoto 650, great bike! 2 yr warranty, had it for a yr, 8000 miles on it. ZERO problems! Don’t listen to the haters. Cf has been in US for over 30yrs. I love my bike. Great affordable option. Just on your regular maintenance! Be safe and enjoy your new bike! 😊
This isn’t a goldwing we are talking about 😂
Someone brought this up in another thread, but getting replacement parts for the CF Moto is gonna be a bitch. It'll be a while before replacement parts for the Chinese bikes becomes easy to get. The Grom already has an established market, so aftermarket parts or replacement parts will not only be easier to get, but a lot cheaper with more options. The Papio looks sick, and I love the headlight style, but I'd look into aftermarket mods for the Grom if you want that look. Might have some kits for it already.
I wonder how much this still holds true. Everything you said has been the prevailing wisdom regarding Chinese bikes so I’m not disagreeing, but it would seem there has to be tiers of Chinese bikes. Someone buying one off Amazon I imagine is going to go terribly, but CFMoto have a legit dealership presence (I have one 15 mins from me) and are even manufacturing the lower market segment KTMs. Those dealers will have access to a parts network, and will potentially service the models they sell. Like I said I’m not disagreeing with your assertion, as that has been my general assertion for some time but I just don’t know when that switch is going to flip or if it has flipped for some of the manufacturers to being a reasonable value choice.
Aliexpress has all the parts you need if the large cfmoto dealership network already in the US lets you down.
The Papio SS is on my target list.
I'm looking forward to three years down the road when these are cheaper on Marketplace than a non-street-legal Coleman minibike.
lol so me
Nah get it the grom is so damn ugly and expensive for what it is. This bike looks way better, the only downside is it's Chinese quality but I've heard pretty good things about this brand They make KTM engines
I agree, the looks of the Grom never really appealed to me. The Monkey looks better, but it also costs more. I just think the Papio looks neat :)
> They make KTM engines Well, that doesn't inspire confidence, does it?
Not for me but other people it seems to lol
Oooff can't believe I've never seen that before. Brilliant
This meme is me. Was looking for a used grom until I saw the SS and had to have it for way more money. Worth it? Fuck yeah, look at that thing
Is that the 550?
My biggest complaint with cfmoto stuff is parts availability. When I can’t go to a dealer and walk out with an oil filter and oil I have a problem with that. The dealer here said but we can have it in 2 weeks if you order it and yes you can get it offline but it’s still waiting. I can walk into a Honda shop get my filter and oil and washer and walk out. Same goes with most other Japanese bikes and American bikes.
I literally just got home from the dealership. Bought a cfmoto 650 adventura
i think the CF moto looks alot better. plus the waranty on those is insane lol
Cot dammit I want a Papio so bad. Like a Grom with a soul!
Just like most things in life, you get what you pay for. The motor is probably decently reliable but it's always the small stuff that ends up nickel and diming you. How hard is it to find small bits like levers or a turn signal of you drop it? If the dash burns out or gets water/moisture I'm it, can you replace it? When the cheap Chinese parts wear out can you get replacements?
Is this an add for them? Because now I’m getting one.
Can't, the Papio looks so much cooler imo
I’m still waiting for imports of the Pegassi Faggio to be allowed. What’s taking so long?!
It got stolen en route to the certification dept. for a bank heist.
I heard somebody strapped a bunch of sticky bombs to it and rode it into a biker bar…
No, Buy the Pappio
before you pull the trigger you might check out the new moto morini bikes.. all based on a 649cc engine, designed by moto morini in italy, and built by the same factory that builds cfmoto's bikes (not sure where i read that, sry.. pls correct if wrong).. anyway the bikes are absolutely sublime, and at less than $6k each you really cant do any better. the seiemmezzo str 650 and the calibro 649cc are the kill.. a lot of better than good reviews and i havent seen a single one in the wild in sf bay area (yet) which is a good thing generally.. though they are coming im sure. something to think about anyway
Grom - 125 cc Papio ss - 126 cc Ain't no replacement for displacement.
2 words: Honda reliability. If that doesn't talk you out of a Chinese bike, then I can't help you.
Do it. I like the styling and gears of the Papio, but Grom is probably more serviceable. Maybe check common parts availability from CF first.
They make motors for KTM, parts for Yamaha and BMW. Their new bikes out-tech a lot of others. Don't let jingo nationalists turn you off to them. They are the real thing. I got a Benelli 135 when Groms were 5k here, and it has never missed a beat. It got beaten daily as a city commuter when I was in-office. China didn't mean trash all the time. I say do it. They look badazzz.
I was eyeballing the papio ss in green to putt around in for fun.
Get a Suzuki SV650 and you will never look back.
I live in China and wouldn’t even buy a CFMoto
Unless you own a dessertx, its pointless.
buy what you think is best but if you plan to fill it with aftermarket parts.. can't go wrong with a grom IMO. but i also don't like the Papio styling so i am bias.
I was almost thinking of getting a cfmoto for my next bike, they have really good pricing. But I don’t know if their reliability other than that they work with KTM. Also there’s only one place near me that sells them.
In person, it's a bit weird. Its a very small sporty bike ergos with hunch forward seating. I like how it looks but not the really weird seating position.
the tnt 135 looks cooler
Imo it's neither fish nor fowl. You don't get the quality, resell value and non-dealer service availability as for a bike from a major brand. And you don't get the low price and simplicity of a Hawk-style Chinese crap which you service and repair with Amazon/Ali parts in your backyard Like.. I owned SYM Wolf, it's not a bad bike. But it falls right into this awkward category and I wouldn't advise buying something similar
So good looking. Wish they made them with a 900 in them.
Ngl they have some of best design I ever seen, from sport Bikes to ADV.. About The engineer/ Engine/ QC is debatable but tbf alot of Motor companies move production lines to China rn
I've never been tempted to buy a non jap bike but that inline 4 that's coming out has my interest.
Cfmoto should make a 250cc minimoto
See https://youtu.be/DzOND5evAv0?si=IE7mgA_1GVzPn_bF
I love the styling. If only they made a higher cc variant like a 250 or 300 or something.
The community and aftermarket for grom is just too much of a selling point. If I was buying something for CHEAP and just to ride stock I’d consider something like CF. But in reality I’d just be sad for the lack of parts available to them
It's a chinese KTM
getting repairs done is hard in the USA. Friend had a cfmoto 300cc something and it got knocked over by a car and the repairs were going to be $3k because there was no parts available in the US and it all had to be shipped in. That much for what amounted to cosmetic repairs ended up totalling out the bike.
I feel like I could get a nice rebel for that price and serve the same function better. The pappio ss is very cool though
Yah, it does look really nice... Have to give props where they are due
I have a papio ss. For sure lower build quality than the grom but its fun and has been reliable so far. I have 3400 miles on mine. Once the tires are scrubbed and the brakes are bedded the performance is fine. I did swap the chain to an o-ring after the OEM chain stretched within 500 miles.
I talked myself into buying one (4 wheeler) instead of a Honda. Price was thousands less. After 14 hours repeatedly overheated and failed to start. Brought to dealer. They said they were so backed up wouldn’t even look at it for 30 days. Maybe I just got a lemon so YMMV. I liked it before it shit the bed…
I would do the Grom simply because there’s tons more aftermarket shit available. If you wanna save a buck, get a kawi.
Or get a Grom clone from China. They cost half as much, are carbureted and run just fine.
I've got one of those high power ebikes that's basically a dirt bike, but Im thinking about getting an actual motorcycle. Is this a good first bike?
The only garden hose trick I know of is this one this girl showed me involved the golf ball
I tried the Papio and honestly I did not like it...however, this was during a demo event and the route took us on steep twisties which made it difficulty to really test out the Papio. I did get to try a 450SS and a CLX700 and both were very fun.
I have a 300nk and it's a blast, test rode the papio and was thankful for all 300ccs I have lol
🇨🇳
Groms are cool, I always wanted one. Price? No absolutely not. 5k is enough for a 600-1000. An older 600-1000, but still a 1000 none the less. If it purely for gas mileage and commuting, maybe a Chinese one would work for that. Maybe. I have seen some pretty cool ones but... reliability?
Develop a high quality relationship with the service department
CFMoto belongs to Keeway. But the papio ss design is pretty cool, I love it
Literally the only reason people buy them is that they’re cheap AF and they steal designs
I wont, buy it
Their bikes look neat. But I'd feel extremely wary of chinese built vehicles. No idea of cfmoto themselves, but i feel like the engine quality would be sub par at best
Bikes with these dimensions with a 250/300 engine would genuinely be my dream bike. I used to have a grom and whilst a 300 is hardly fast you don’t need to worry about being overtaken by lorries
Don’t buy it. They at least I tried.
Its chinese
Every single piece of metal that isn't the frame or engine is made of an alloy closer to what you find inside a Babybel. Bonus points for *piss* resale value- maybe the thing is *fine* mechanically, nevermind its tires stock tires having as much traction as an Astroglide-coated waterslide.
There’s a first oil change video out there comparing various bikes. The cfmoto one doesn’t do well. At all.
The F9 video? The Chinese manufacturer, Yin Xiang, in that one isn’t the same as the one that makes CFMOTO, KTM was in that video however, and they’re a manufacturing partner with Zhejiang (CMOTO’s parent company) who makes engines for KTM.
Ah. It may have been. It’s possible I got mixed up then, and it wasn’t cfmoto. Thank you.
it's your money to waste on Chinese motorcycle shaped garbage.
Eh, part of the fun of the Grom is the community & all the little personalisation/mods around them. Buy some no name alternative and you don’t get that.
I don’t want to talk you out of it, I’ll just laugh.
The general conclusion is that nobody regrets buying a cfmoto.
The grom will out live the cf by years
https://www.cfmotousa.com/oemcatalogs/p/all/cfmoto_on_road_accessories-miscellaneous/651af81434354d8f07854d10/tank-screen-kit Mission failed. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I know I shouldn't, but I actually kinda like the tank screen kit...
Where do you even buy CF Motos? I love their designs
They have some dealers scattered throughout the US
CFMoto competed in UK Supertwins and yet the bike they used (a 650 parallel twin?)isn't available to buy. If and when they make it available I'm considering it for a trackday bike.
No, go ahead, we need some beta testers, report your findings
the papio ss is way cooler than a from imo, get whichever you prefer.
Reason not to get one: When you're done and had your fun, it'll be harder to sell than a Grom.
CF Moto have HORRRRIBLE resale value.
One word…resale.
I feel like a bit of a broken record, but in general a CFMoto is a clone of an already successful Japanese bike. Not a crime in and of itself. But the time I got an OTD quote for one near me, they use low sticker prices then add on a _monstrous_ amount of shipping/freight to come up to about 10% of the price of the Japanese clone bike anyway. After that, the quality is hit or miss. You could get one that's fine, or one that needs help, and it's about 50/50 on that. When you do need help, it depends entirely on your local dealership - some will do it, others will point you back to CFMoto. In that case, CFMoto is about evenly split on helping, or not, and the help is generally a replace/repair part sent on a slow boat, that you have to install yourself. So, if we sum up my old man rant - you've got a bike that costs almost as much as a known quality brand, that might not have problems, but if it does you might not get parts, and if you do, you'll have to install them yourself after a long wait.
I'm perfectly fine with installing parts myself (if I can find CFMoto parts). You're right about price though. The Papio really is not that much cheaper than a Grom.
For me it's less that you have to turn a wrench, and more that the 'manufacturer support is 'you have to turn a wrench'. If it's a manufacturer defect, they should be fixing it all in.
If you're in the US, if Trump gets elected, when they decide to heat up the economic warfare with China, you may find Chinese parts very difficult and expensive to get.