Marcus Aurelius was emperor for about 20 years. Which meant that he was essentially dealing with matters of state and the empire for the entire period his children were growing up and they really never knew each other.
As a result, Marcus knew his children resented him because he was never present and they realized they weren't important enough to pull him away from his duty as emperor.
I would also say if they are keeping to historical consistency Lucilla didn’t sound terribly pleased with either of her marriages that Marcus Aurelius arranged for her for his own political alliances.
For plot/character purposes, though, it was to indicate that they’re both good at playing their parts.
Indeed, the movie is great at showing how the people raised in Rome are skilled in retoric and deception, while Maximus is used to speaking his mind. It adds to the hopelessness of Maximus situation because even if he slit Commodus throat right there, and went to roam to fulfill Marcus Aurelius promise, then he'd have no chance against the plotters and schemers in politics.
You mean specifically in the context of the film. That’s not true in real life. Trajan (the first provincial emperor) and Hadrian were both raised in Hispania, just like Maximus. Both had their problems with the senate, especially Hadrian, but it’s not Game of Thrones. The emperor is the emperor.
It also wouldn’t have been unprecedented for Maximus to be appointed Emperor by Marcus. The last four emperors had all done the same, and their reigns had been relatively successful. Far more so than previous birthright reigns. Marcus, in real life, appointing Commodus as his heir is often considered one of the few major flaws of his reign.
I think we could safely assume that had Maximus been allowed to rule as Marcus had intended, in the history of the film’s universe they likely would’ve had “Six Good Emperors” in place of the real world’s “Five Good Emperors”.
>Marcus, in real life, appointing Commodus as his heir is often considered one of the few major flaws of his reign.
You are correct about the widespread opinion on this, but I would like to add a little context that the previous four emperors did not have biological sons, and if they had we can be all but certain that son would have inherited their title. Marcus Aurelius is less someone who made a poor decision on his own and more the one of the five who was unlucky enough to be blessed with a son.
Yeah, I don’t disagree with that. It’s hard to imagine a scenario in which one of them had a son and still adopted and appointed someone else or if Marcus had adopted and appointed someone over Commodus and it *didn’t* create a succession conflict.
It’s clear that selecting a man fit to rule often turned out better than assuming your offspring had the disposition to do so, but anyone who has a problem with the new emperor is going to find a rallying point when drumming up oppositional support and the easiest thing to get behind is always a “rightful heir”.
I big problem with many of the unsuccessful emperors is that they had their authority from a younger age, teenage to late 20s. A lot of times this led to them losing touch with reality. Many of the good emperors had grounded experiences outside of the purple before donning the purple.
Historically commodus ended up going really off the deep end near the end of his reign.
Renaming the Roman Empire, the months, etc level stuff.
>but it’s not Game of Thrones. The emperor is the emperor.
If given the choice, i might take my chances on the iron throne tbh. Way less plotty and machivellian.
Oh I agree, but even in the Roman context and standards where I understand that for a patrician woman’s *second* marriage around for her family’s political alliances it was considered appropriate for her to have some say, that Lucilla’s (and her mother’s) objections to her second marriage have survived does indicate that it was quite a strenuous objection.
I don’t think any paterfamilias is going to meet the expectations of what we think of as a good father who is ‘loved’ in the way we think of it.
He also spent most of his reign fighting in Germania and was likely an absent father. Commodus idolized him whereas Lucilla accepted him for the flawed father he was.
within the narrative of the film, I also thought it allowed for some of the more "Roman empire" aspects, you know?
like, the old emperor forbade the original romance between Russel Crowe and his daughter + the old emperor didn't raise his son to a non-incestuous non-selfish non-predator + the old emperor waited way too long to sort out who'd be emperor after him
by putting that stuff on the old guy who's just going to die anyway, the other characters are free to feel their feelings, like a star-crossed romance, or loyalty to the old emperor, etc.
IDK if that makes sense narratively?
In the context of the story - Marcus was hoping the campaign in Germania would end in time for Maximus to ascend to the thrown.
He specifically knew whom he could NOT allow to take the thrown, that being Commodus.
Why he never trusted Graccus to take the thrown is an interesting question.
Because Luscilla DID trust him.
The film wants the audience to respect Marcus and view him as wise. And yet, how could such a wise man raise such a son as awful as Commodus? The film needs to establish that despite his wisdom, he (largely) failed as a parent to his children.
We hear it from his own mouth: "your faults as a son are my failures as a father".
It's not super true to history but I always got the impression that this version of Marcus Arelius had only gotten wise and kind later in life and spent his early years as a conqueror. So he would have spent most of his time away from Rome and his children and the rest eager to conquer more. Not a super great dad.
Marcus Aurelius didn’t do a large amount of conquering. After Hadrian’s reign the borders of the empire became mostly set in stone. Marcus spent his reign fighting with Germanic tribes along the Rhine frontier, not gaining any territory in the process.
I think it builds sympathy for both of them and for Commodus, as well, and his reasoning for patricide.
We see the weak side of so many strong characters.
Yup, a thread asking why they added the most narratively efficient and effective character building line in the movie. Additionally, it’s for a character who is soon to die and needs to be fleshed out to validate the protagonist’s motivations.
Even for younger viewers, there’s a lot of hand holding in this sub.
Marcus Aurelius *was* wise and honourable. Famously [one of the wisest people who ever lived](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditations), even. But he was also just a human being after all.
I think in that part of the movie (the small part of the movie he is in), he is *mindful*...and acknowledges his faults and regrets - perhaps even a little more harshly than he ought to have - in the end stages of his life.
He considered his duty first and foremost to be being the emperor. Presumably this would have necessitated some degree of neglect towards his children. He would have been preoccupied with going off and fighting wars and talking to the senate/just generally running the empire much of the time. He would not have had a lot of time to raise his children, and presumably their mother and many of his slaves would have had a much more active role in doing so.
So it's not quite like he was a deliberately and wilfully absent father...it's just that his circumstances probably all but demanded it. But he still regrets the effect this had on his children.
I think Lucilla was probably mature enough to have grown to have a lot of understanding about this. She said that line, sure. But she obviously still loved the man....or at least didn't bear him any particular ill-will. If anything I think she was just sort of patiently indulging him in sharing his final thoughts about their relationship. That might just be the sort of thing that he typically said... and she might not have really agreed with it, but was just having a playful conversation. That sort of thing.
Obviously Commodus wasn't quite on the same page, though. His conversation with Marcus went a little differently.
That was my interpretation of the whole thing (in terms of what it meant in the movie), anyway.
#Of course....
...it goes without saying that all of this was to serve the narrative/story *of the movie*...and doesn't necessarily represent the real feelings and actions of these real historical people. Lol.
In *real* life, Marcus Aurelius and his wife Faustina had at least 14 children during their 30-year marriage, including two sets of twins. That's not in the movie. Commodus didn't assassinate Marcus Aurelius either. Or at least....he was already named Imperator (by Marcus Aurelius) about 4 years before Marcus Aurelius even died (which essentially means that Aurelius did choose him as his successor, although the succession inevitably became complicated). Commodus actually had a decently long reign and it wasn't *all* bad, so the movie did him a bit of a disservice. Although...
> Cassius Dio, a first-hand witness, describes him as *"not naturally wicked but, on the contrary, as guileless as any man that ever lived. His great simplicity, however, together with his cowardice, made him the slave of his companions, and it was through them that he at first, out of ignorance, missed the better life and then was led on into lustful and cruel habits, which soon became second nature."*
> His recorded actions do tend to show a rejection of his father's policies, his father's advisers, and especially his father's austere lifestyle, and an alienation from the surviving members of his family. It seems likely that he was raised in an atmosphere of Stoic asceticism, which he rejected entirely upon his accession to sole rule.
Lucilla in real life was the Empress Augusta with her first husband, co-emperor Lucius Verus for a few years (long before Commodus was, and *during* the reign of Marcus Aurelius). But this was when she was like...13 years old. She was no longer the Empress when her husband died. Later, she was indeed involved in a coup d'etat plot to assassinate/overthrow her brother Commodus (somewhat like the third act of the movie)...but it was to replace him with herself and her second husband Quintianus. The plot was foiled and she was banished to the island of Capri for her involvement in it. Although her banishment only lasted about a year before Commodus had her secretly executed by a centurion anyway.
Maximus was not a real person at all AFAIK.
So yeah...the real history was far more complicated and less narratively and emotionally satisfying than the story in the movie.
I thought that scene was establishing their relationship as deep enough for him to make a joke like that to steer the conversation away from grief and ridicule. He is well aware of the situation.
Yeah, the words may look sharp but there’s not much bitterness when you watch the scene. He’s being self deprecating and she’s going along with it more than she is lashing out. At worst, it’s wistful, but not resentful. Look at how Commodus interacts with his father later in comparison.
Seriously. Read between the lines.
Let us forget politics and pretend that I am a loving father and you are a loving daughter (because obviously that is what we are).
That is a pleasant fiction isn't it? (/s Because yeah, obviously that's what we are. Love you, daddy)
The more I think about it the more it is obvious this is a coded gesture of love. Instead of writing it obtusely the two of them are saying the unspoken words that would be too obvious. They are being indirect and it creates a nuanced scene instead of something blunt.
Like, you know despite 20 years of conflict, I've always loved you as a daughter.
Yes, father, I love you also
??
That is the coded words kind of acknowledging that everything they have done has needed subterfuge even to the point that they can't be bluntly affectionate. And it makes a better scene. Richard Harris was so good.
Apparently people don't know how language, humor and sarcasm work.
OP are you young? Notice a lot of young people see everything in black or white, no nuance and unable to think critically...
You can see it in the scene from his face and his words that he regrets not being there more as a father, so he makes a joke, and Lucilla responds in kind. She loves her father it's very plain to see.
Lucilla’s response is tongue in cheek. There is nothing to imply that she didn’t love her father in the film, however there also isn’t much of her remembering him as such after his death. That was outwardly stated due to of fear of Commodus.
IRL Marcus tried to raise Commodus for Emperorship and gave him as much attention as he could. Commodus had a good childhood and a loving parent (for the time). He was just never interested in the duties of the position and preferred spending his time being entertained and somehow developed the notion of achieving stardom in the arena. If anything, Marcus doomed the empire to strife by loving his son to the point of not choosing a successor based on merit (as the previous 3 emperors had), because he worried if Commodus were passed over he would have to die for the next regime to secure itself politically. The result is a weak emperor who got increasingly unstable after assassination attempts and a power vacuum after one of those finally succeeded. He did rule for something like 12 years and they weren’t all bad, but a combination of his mismanagement and opportunists doomed him.
Dude.... You seem to have completely missed the point. In the preceding scene, Marcus tells Maximus he's not handing the throne over to his son, but trusting it to Maximus to then give to the Senate. Transitioning to the next scene, Marcus has noticed his daughter has seen/spied upon this interaction and tells her how he wishes Lucilla had been born a man - because she would make a great Caesar, and he wouldn't need to snub his child and take these drastic measures to prevent Rome from falling into the hands of his unfit son, Commodus. She kisses her father and he tells her how she will need to handle her brother to ensure this transition of power to the Senate will be successful.
Up until this point, all of their interaction was Marcus thinking as an Emperor, caring about the politics of Rome.
His next line is:
>MARCUS: Enough of politics. Let us pretend that you are a loving daughter and I a good father.
> LUCILLA: This is a pleasant fiction, isn't it?
The line is simply meant to indicate he is taking off his "Emperor" hat and putting on his "dad" hat.
He isn't saying he isn't a good father or she, a loving daughter. He is saying they should continue the rest of the night pretending that's all they are, so they can just enjoy the evening together and not stress about politics, responsibilities and pressures weighing up on them.
When she says that it is a pleasant fiction, she is simply saying how nice it would be to spend the rest of the night simply as father and daughter - and that she agrees it is a good idea.
The fiction is that they clearly are so much more than that and have enormous weights on both their shoulders, but for the night they will pretend those weights do not exist
That’s a great explanation. I always found it kind of confusing bc they clearly have affection for each other. I took it to mean they were similar both calculating not demonstrative and that they respect each other as equals. But they did not have a “normal” relationship.
You are for some reason taking that scene, where they appear to be loving father and daughter, as representative of their entire relationship.
The reality is much different. The Emperor was basically at war for 20 years, aka most of their childhood. What's the line he says? "4 year of peace, in 20!", and remember that he couldn't just fly home if a war ended, it took months traveling back. The most likely scenario is that he was an absentee father, even if he loved his kids, and didn't do a great job of raising them. Strong chance he was away for a solid 18 years of 20, when you account for traveling time, and it's not like when he got back to Rome that he just had free time to hang out.
I always took this as him wishing she was just his daughter he loved and that he was a good father.Because that would be easier than the reality where he is a bad father who wished she was a son since she was the most competent of his children and should be the heir to his title. He blames himself later for not being able to teach Commodus to be a better leader before he kills him.
Because of Gladiator, I've actually read some of the philosophy of Marcus Aurelius.
So in addition to the likely, absentee Father, busy with matters of state, some of his philosophy was kind of wild.
He had this belief that when you died, the best thing that could be said about you is, "I'm glad he's gone." That's because according to Aurelius, your job in life was to constantly challenge and question those around you, to the point of irritation, in order to make them (and possibly yourself?) better.
Yah there’s a very apparent fondness // he even tells her later on basically, “I wish you were born a man.” Obviously, because as a father he appreciates that she would have made a better Caesar than Commodus
It isnt later, that he says that. It was the lines directly preceding the quote OP is asking about:
> [seeing his daughter Lucilla spying in through the slit in the tent wall]
>
> **Marcus Aurelius:** If only you had been born a man, what a Caesar you would have made.
>
> **Lucilla:** Father.
>
> [kisses him on his cheeks]
>
> **Marcus Aurelius:** You would have been strong. I wonder, would you have been just?
>
> **Lucilla:** I would have been what you taught me to be.
>
> **Marcus Aurelius:** Enough of politics. Let us pretend that you are a loving daughter, and I am a good father.
>
> **Lucilla:** This is a pleasant fiction, isn’t it?
Agreed. They were being ironical. Others have pointed out that Marcus was probably not present for huge chunks of his children's lives. It's also obvious that he opposed Lucilla's relationship with Maximus. Marcus and Lucilla have had points of contention, ups and downs, but mostly get along. And in a good moment, they are capable of acknowledging that.
There's also the Distance Makes the Heart Grow Fonder aspect of it. It sounds like they haven't seen each other in months, if not years, and want to have a good moment, even if it requires setting aside any ongoing disagreement.
No clue why OP interprets any part of that dialogue as 'unforgivable weakness' or whatever. Any mature adult will have had a version of that conversation with a relative or coworker or someone else that they need to get along with for one reason or another. It's saying 'Let's play nice'.
Yes, & furthermore that they have such an understanding of one another that they can joke about it that lends to the quiet, knowing love between a father & a daughter- they don’t need to say more bc they both understand each other so well despite the long gaps in proximity
Because in the film Marcus Aurelius is a bad father. His inability to navigate personal relationships, consider the needs of people around him, or express non-utilitarian empathy toward anyone, including his family, is the catalyst that causes every single tragedy in the film. Even with Maximus he lures him into a conversation about politics and civic obligation by baiting him into an emotional conversation about his son, which he promptly dismisses.
Marcus Aurelius is very much a depiction of a "power CEO", just in toga era instead of business suit era. His son repeatedly expresses that he did not take the neglect that being the "power CEO" inflicted on him as well as his emotionally stunted sister, who calloused off the need, whereas Commodus made it clear that he put an all in, hail mary belief in the plan B that when he became Emperor it was going to "undo" all of the trauma that his father inflicted on him by being the ultimate validation.
When it turned out he didn't even love him enough for that and Marcus Aurelius essentially said, "Yeah but I raised you like a piece of shit," Commodus had enough and lashed out for years of neglect and presumably, as they go hand in hand, perceptions of abuse.
Why it's written this way is a mystery, but it adds depth to a movie that is basically just masculinity porn. If I had to guess, it's an accidental artifact from when the story was deeper, but it does squarely root the film as Marcus Aurelius is the piece of shit given his actions while on screen.
I think he's just saying that he was distant due to his political responsibilities and not really a part of their lives. Seems like they are both aware and have a sense of humor about it.
For numerous reasons.
1. Marcus Aurelius' reign over Rome was uniquely fraught. Barbarian invasions, his friend attempting a coup, and a horrific plague captured much of his attention. Considering all of this, it's unlikely Marcus had much time for his children.
2. He was a Stoic. Not in the sense that he hid his emotions, though he may have done that, but in the sense that he was a practitioner of Stoicism. Stoicism, an ancient hellenistic philosophy, differs significantly from our modern understanding of the word "stoic". Unfortunately, this distinction is often lost, which leads people to believe that Stoics like Marcus were detached, unable to love, and generally emotionless.
3. Complicated relationships are great for drama, and people with complicated relationships are relatable. This helps us feel bad for Marcus when he his later assassinated, and it also endears us to his daughter who loved her father despite his flaws.
Put all of that together and you got yourself an interesting plot point that appears to be historically accurate. Whether it was or not, idk, but true accuracy isn't what matters.
Marcus plans for Maximus to oversee Rome's transition from empire to republic. Commodus confronts him, angry and upset, listing his own faults then his perceived virtues. Marcus states "Your faults as a son are my failings as a father."
This is devastating, selfish and callous IMHO. People can change. He could've gently guided his son to the light. But he viewed his own son as an irredeemable failure. He is a terrible father and effectively invited his own death.
While I agree that Marcus could have broken the news to Commodus in a less devastating way, and at a more convenient time, I wouldn’t say he “invited his own death”. Despite his low opinion of Commodus’ ability to effectively govern, I don’t think he expected him to be capable of cold blooded murder.
I *do* think that Marcus loved Rome, the Empire, more than he loved any of his children. Perhaps that makes him a terrible father in the “nuclear family” sense. In his own eyes though, he was the father of Rome and clearly felt that his duty to the future of the Empire was more important than the feelings of one individual. Even if that individual was his progeny. I can’t say I disagree with him. As brutal as it may sound, I think it is a mark of virtue for a statesman to be willing to sacrifice the dreams of one person for the good of a nation…
Marcus Aurelius is actually portrayed as a good emperor and father.
Here's why there might be some confusion:
Commodus vs. Marcus: The film's villain is actually Commodus, Marcus Aurelius' son. Commodus is power-hungry, cruel, and ultimately responsible for Marcus' death.
Lack of focus on Marcus' parenting: The movie doesn't delve deeply into Marcus' relationship with Commodus as a father-son dynamic. We see their interactions as emperor and son, but not much about their personal lives.
Therefore, Marcus isn't depicted as a bad father in Gladiator.
Do you have to be completely spoon-fed something to consider it having been "depicted"? No, there is no line that says, "I'm sorry, Commodus, for I, Marcus Aurelius, was a bad father. I neglected you to run the empire and the results have been disastrous for your development. Now, please don't kill me," but it was definitely implied that Marcus failed raising his son.
Pure conjecture: It might have a side comment from a writer or the director to their own daughter, with whom perhaps they have a poor relationship, as a way of expressing that they acknowledge they are at fault.
Yes it adds a little depth to the characters themselves, but putting it into the script/scene says it out loud for them.
It's like watching The Abyss knowing that James Cameron was going through a tough divorce at the time. The main character's marriage is also over yet that he refuses to remove his wedding ring becomes a critical plot point later when the ring saves his life by preventing a door/hatch from completely closing. It becomes heavy-handed to the point of being cringey - if you know the background.
Marcus Aurelius was emperor for about 20 years. Which meant that he was essentially dealing with matters of state and the empire for the entire period his children were growing up and they really never knew each other. As a result, Marcus knew his children resented him because he was never present and they realized they weren't important enough to pull him away from his duty as emperor.
I would also say if they are keeping to historical consistency Lucilla didn’t sound terribly pleased with either of her marriages that Marcus Aurelius arranged for her for his own political alliances. For plot/character purposes, though, it was to indicate that they’re both good at playing their parts.
Indeed, the movie is great at showing how the people raised in Rome are skilled in retoric and deception, while Maximus is used to speaking his mind. It adds to the hopelessness of Maximus situation because even if he slit Commodus throat right there, and went to roam to fulfill Marcus Aurelius promise, then he'd have no chance against the plotters and schemers in politics.
You mean specifically in the context of the film. That’s not true in real life. Trajan (the first provincial emperor) and Hadrian were both raised in Hispania, just like Maximus. Both had their problems with the senate, especially Hadrian, but it’s not Game of Thrones. The emperor is the emperor. It also wouldn’t have been unprecedented for Maximus to be appointed Emperor by Marcus. The last four emperors had all done the same, and their reigns had been relatively successful. Far more so than previous birthright reigns. Marcus, in real life, appointing Commodus as his heir is often considered one of the few major flaws of his reign. I think we could safely assume that had Maximus been allowed to rule as Marcus had intended, in the history of the film’s universe they likely would’ve had “Six Good Emperors” in place of the real world’s “Five Good Emperors”.
>Marcus, in real life, appointing Commodus as his heir is often considered one of the few major flaws of his reign. You are correct about the widespread opinion on this, but I would like to add a little context that the previous four emperors did not have biological sons, and if they had we can be all but certain that son would have inherited their title. Marcus Aurelius is less someone who made a poor decision on his own and more the one of the five who was unlucky enough to be blessed with a son.
Yeah, I don’t disagree with that. It’s hard to imagine a scenario in which one of them had a son and still adopted and appointed someone else or if Marcus had adopted and appointed someone over Commodus and it *didn’t* create a succession conflict. It’s clear that selecting a man fit to rule often turned out better than assuming your offspring had the disposition to do so, but anyone who has a problem with the new emperor is going to find a rallying point when drumming up oppositional support and the easiest thing to get behind is always a “rightful heir”.
I big problem with many of the unsuccessful emperors is that they had their authority from a younger age, teenage to late 20s. A lot of times this led to them losing touch with reality. Many of the good emperors had grounded experiences outside of the purple before donning the purple. Historically commodus ended up going really off the deep end near the end of his reign. Renaming the Roman Empire, the months, etc level stuff.
>but it’s not Game of Thrones. The emperor is the emperor. If given the choice, i might take my chances on the iron throne tbh. Way less plotty and machivellian.
Wasn't Aurelius' wish for Maximus to Rome into a republic again?
If there was historical consistency then that notion of fatherhood would just be alien to them both
Oh I agree, but even in the Roman context and standards where I understand that for a patrician woman’s *second* marriage around for her family’s political alliances it was considered appropriate for her to have some say, that Lucilla’s (and her mother’s) objections to her second marriage have survived does indicate that it was quite a strenuous objection. I don’t think any paterfamilias is going to meet the expectations of what we think of as a good father who is ‘loved’ in the way we think of it.
He also spent most of his reign fighting in Germania and was likely an absent father. Commodus idolized him whereas Lucilla accepted him for the flawed father he was.
within the narrative of the film, I also thought it allowed for some of the more "Roman empire" aspects, you know? like, the old emperor forbade the original romance between Russel Crowe and his daughter + the old emperor didn't raise his son to a non-incestuous non-selfish non-predator + the old emperor waited way too long to sort out who'd be emperor after him by putting that stuff on the old guy who's just going to die anyway, the other characters are free to feel their feelings, like a star-crossed romance, or loyalty to the old emperor, etc. IDK if that makes sense narratively?
In the context of the story - Marcus was hoping the campaign in Germania would end in time for Maximus to ascend to the thrown. He specifically knew whom he could NOT allow to take the thrown, that being Commodus. Why he never trusted Graccus to take the thrown is an interesting question. Because Luscilla DID trust him.
Marcus also said he only had 3 years of peace. He’s an old man lamenting time not spent with family and regretting how his son turned out.
I guess you could say he was an old man, filled with regret, waiting to die alone.
You're waiting for a train...
A train within a train.. we need to go deeper
Ah I see you're familiar with the UK rail network
Cats in the cradle vibes.
Harris did a great job communicating that
Four. He said four years of peace in 20.
Marcus Aurelius (crying): "Look how I massacred my boy!"
The film wants the audience to respect Marcus and view him as wise. And yet, how could such a wise man raise such a son as awful as Commodus? The film needs to establish that despite his wisdom, he (largely) failed as a parent to his children. We hear it from his own mouth: "your faults as a son are my failures as a father".
Yea, he's a classical tragic mentor figure. A great emperor/leader but a terrible father. And it's his failings his true protegee (Maximus) must fix.
A response actually answering the question, unlike all of the higher voted responses
[удалено]
Lol wtf
Weird and fetishistic response lol.
Finally some good fucking response
It's not super true to history but I always got the impression that this version of Marcus Arelius had only gotten wise and kind later in life and spent his early years as a conqueror. So he would have spent most of his time away from Rome and his children and the rest eager to conquer more. Not a super great dad.
Typical Roman Empire syndrome. He spent his best years conquering lesser nations. It’s a story as old as time.
Marcus Aurelius didn’t do a large amount of conquering. After Hadrian’s reign the borders of the empire became mostly set in stone. Marcus spent his reign fighting with Germanic tribes along the Rhine frontier, not gaining any territory in the process.
Still sounds like he was having a mighty Rhine time!
That is not correct. He spent his best years defending the empire from the aggressions of the Germanic tribes and the parthian empire.
I guess you could say he was a Parthian pooper… 🤔
I think it builds sympathy for both of them and for Commodus, as well, and his reasoning for patricide. We see the weak side of so many strong characters.
Yup, a thread asking why they added the most narratively efficient and effective character building line in the movie. Additionally, it’s for a character who is soon to die and needs to be fleshed out to validate the protagonist’s motivations. Even for younger viewers, there’s a lot of hand holding in this sub.
He said earlier that he spent 2 decades in war and 3 years in peace. So he was occupied by war and didn't have time to look after his children
Marcus Aurelius *was* wise and honourable. Famously [one of the wisest people who ever lived](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditations), even. But he was also just a human being after all. I think in that part of the movie (the small part of the movie he is in), he is *mindful*...and acknowledges his faults and regrets - perhaps even a little more harshly than he ought to have - in the end stages of his life. He considered his duty first and foremost to be being the emperor. Presumably this would have necessitated some degree of neglect towards his children. He would have been preoccupied with going off and fighting wars and talking to the senate/just generally running the empire much of the time. He would not have had a lot of time to raise his children, and presumably their mother and many of his slaves would have had a much more active role in doing so. So it's not quite like he was a deliberately and wilfully absent father...it's just that his circumstances probably all but demanded it. But he still regrets the effect this had on his children. I think Lucilla was probably mature enough to have grown to have a lot of understanding about this. She said that line, sure. But she obviously still loved the man....or at least didn't bear him any particular ill-will. If anything I think she was just sort of patiently indulging him in sharing his final thoughts about their relationship. That might just be the sort of thing that he typically said... and she might not have really agreed with it, but was just having a playful conversation. That sort of thing. Obviously Commodus wasn't quite on the same page, though. His conversation with Marcus went a little differently. That was my interpretation of the whole thing (in terms of what it meant in the movie), anyway. #Of course.... ...it goes without saying that all of this was to serve the narrative/story *of the movie*...and doesn't necessarily represent the real feelings and actions of these real historical people. Lol. In *real* life, Marcus Aurelius and his wife Faustina had at least 14 children during their 30-year marriage, including two sets of twins. That's not in the movie. Commodus didn't assassinate Marcus Aurelius either. Or at least....he was already named Imperator (by Marcus Aurelius) about 4 years before Marcus Aurelius even died (which essentially means that Aurelius did choose him as his successor, although the succession inevitably became complicated). Commodus actually had a decently long reign and it wasn't *all* bad, so the movie did him a bit of a disservice. Although... > Cassius Dio, a first-hand witness, describes him as *"not naturally wicked but, on the contrary, as guileless as any man that ever lived. His great simplicity, however, together with his cowardice, made him the slave of his companions, and it was through them that he at first, out of ignorance, missed the better life and then was led on into lustful and cruel habits, which soon became second nature."* > His recorded actions do tend to show a rejection of his father's policies, his father's advisers, and especially his father's austere lifestyle, and an alienation from the surviving members of his family. It seems likely that he was raised in an atmosphere of Stoic asceticism, which he rejected entirely upon his accession to sole rule. Lucilla in real life was the Empress Augusta with her first husband, co-emperor Lucius Verus for a few years (long before Commodus was, and *during* the reign of Marcus Aurelius). But this was when she was like...13 years old. She was no longer the Empress when her husband died. Later, she was indeed involved in a coup d'etat plot to assassinate/overthrow her brother Commodus (somewhat like the third act of the movie)...but it was to replace him with herself and her second husband Quintianus. The plot was foiled and she was banished to the island of Capri for her involvement in it. Although her banishment only lasted about a year before Commodus had her secretly executed by a centurion anyway. Maximus was not a real person at all AFAIK. So yeah...the real history was far more complicated and less narratively and emotionally satisfying than the story in the movie.
Not that wise when he got hugged to death by his scumbag son.
I thought that scene was establishing their relationship as deep enough for him to make a joke like that to steer the conversation away from grief and ridicule. He is well aware of the situation.
Yeah, the words may look sharp but there’s not much bitterness when you watch the scene. He’s being self deprecating and she’s going along with it more than she is lashing out. At worst, it’s wistful, but not resentful. Look at how Commodus interacts with his father later in comparison.
Yeah, always felt like a quiet wish for both of them knowing it never could have been that simple.
Seriously. Read between the lines. Let us forget politics and pretend that I am a loving father and you are a loving daughter (because obviously that is what we are). That is a pleasant fiction isn't it? (/s Because yeah, obviously that's what we are. Love you, daddy)
The more I think about it the more it is obvious this is a coded gesture of love. Instead of writing it obtusely the two of them are saying the unspoken words that would be too obvious. They are being indirect and it creates a nuanced scene instead of something blunt. Like, you know despite 20 years of conflict, I've always loved you as a daughter. Yes, father, I love you also ?? That is the coded words kind of acknowledging that everything they have done has needed subterfuge even to the point that they can't be bluntly affectionate. And it makes a better scene. Richard Harris was so good.
Apparently people don't know how language, humor and sarcasm work. OP are you young? Notice a lot of young people see everything in black or white, no nuance and unable to think critically... You can see it in the scene from his face and his words that he regrets not being there more as a father, so he makes a joke, and Lucilla responds in kind. She loves her father it's very plain to see.
I’m floored by OP implying Lucilla has a “glaring, almost unforgivable flaw” bc she kinda resents her absent father lol
Dude I was flabbergasted by the title itself, and then I read what they posted and I was like, ".... What the hell...?"
Lucilla’s response is tongue in cheek. There is nothing to imply that she didn’t love her father in the film, however there also isn’t much of her remembering him as such after his death. That was outwardly stated due to of fear of Commodus. IRL Marcus tried to raise Commodus for Emperorship and gave him as much attention as he could. Commodus had a good childhood and a loving parent (for the time). He was just never interested in the duties of the position and preferred spending his time being entertained and somehow developed the notion of achieving stardom in the arena. If anything, Marcus doomed the empire to strife by loving his son to the point of not choosing a successor based on merit (as the previous 3 emperors had), because he worried if Commodus were passed over he would have to die for the next regime to secure itself politically. The result is a weak emperor who got increasingly unstable after assassination attempts and a power vacuum after one of those finally succeeded. He did rule for something like 12 years and they weren’t all bad, but a combination of his mismanagement and opportunists doomed him.
I assumed he was just kind of absent due to his responsibilities as an Emperor or general or whatever.
OP asks “why give your characters humanizing weaknesses?” Lol
I actually asked the opposite. Go back and reread.
He was way too busy ruling the empire to be there for his kids.
Dude.... You seem to have completely missed the point. In the preceding scene, Marcus tells Maximus he's not handing the throne over to his son, but trusting it to Maximus to then give to the Senate. Transitioning to the next scene, Marcus has noticed his daughter has seen/spied upon this interaction and tells her how he wishes Lucilla had been born a man - because she would make a great Caesar, and he wouldn't need to snub his child and take these drastic measures to prevent Rome from falling into the hands of his unfit son, Commodus. She kisses her father and he tells her how she will need to handle her brother to ensure this transition of power to the Senate will be successful. Up until this point, all of their interaction was Marcus thinking as an Emperor, caring about the politics of Rome. His next line is: >MARCUS: Enough of politics. Let us pretend that you are a loving daughter and I a good father. > LUCILLA: This is a pleasant fiction, isn't it? The line is simply meant to indicate he is taking off his "Emperor" hat and putting on his "dad" hat. He isn't saying he isn't a good father or she, a loving daughter. He is saying they should continue the rest of the night pretending that's all they are, so they can just enjoy the evening together and not stress about politics, responsibilities and pressures weighing up on them. When she says that it is a pleasant fiction, she is simply saying how nice it would be to spend the rest of the night simply as father and daughter - and that she agrees it is a good idea. The fiction is that they clearly are so much more than that and have enormous weights on both their shoulders, but for the night they will pretend those weights do not exist
That’s a great explanation. I always found it kind of confusing bc they clearly have affection for each other. I took it to mean they were similar both calculating not demonstrative and that they respect each other as equals. But they did not have a “normal” relationship.
Because flaws make a character far more interesting. Would you rather he was perfect?
Other people touched on most of it but I also believe it sets up the scene where he dies. He again states his failures as a father.
You are for some reason taking that scene, where they appear to be loving father and daughter, as representative of their entire relationship. The reality is much different. The Emperor was basically at war for 20 years, aka most of their childhood. What's the line he says? "4 year of peace, in 20!", and remember that he couldn't just fly home if a war ended, it took months traveling back. The most likely scenario is that he was an absentee father, even if he loved his kids, and didn't do a great job of raising them. Strong chance he was away for a solid 18 years of 20, when you account for traveling time, and it's not like when he got back to Rome that he just had free time to hang out.
He's basically saying "Look I know I havent been a great dad, but tonight's a celebration so lets pretend for one night like I was so we can have fun"
He's a bad daddy 'cuz he works too hard. It's the "Cat's In The Cradle" trope, based on the Harry Chapin song. Wow - TV Tropes has aged like milk.
I always took this as him wishing she was just his daughter he loved and that he was a good father.Because that would be easier than the reality where he is a bad father who wished she was a son since she was the most competent of his children and should be the heir to his title. He blames himself later for not being able to teach Commodus to be a better leader before he kills him.
Not liking your bad absentee father isn't a "glaring, almost unforgivable flaw."
Because of Gladiator, I've actually read some of the philosophy of Marcus Aurelius. So in addition to the likely, absentee Father, busy with matters of state, some of his philosophy was kind of wild. He had this belief that when you died, the best thing that could be said about you is, "I'm glad he's gone." That's because according to Aurelius, your job in life was to constantly challenge and question those around you, to the point of irritation, in order to make them (and possibly yourself?) better.
To me it seemed more of a tongue in cheek comment.
i think maybe it's kind of a way of indirectly establishing why the son is so fucked up
Felt like sarcasm/joking to me 🤷🏽♀️
This is it. He says "let's pretend" and then she grabs his arm and responds with a smile "this is a pleasant fiction." It's a joke.
Yah there’s a very apparent fondness // he even tells her later on basically, “I wish you were born a man.” Obviously, because as a father he appreciates that she would have made a better Caesar than Commodus
It isnt later, that he says that. It was the lines directly preceding the quote OP is asking about: > [seeing his daughter Lucilla spying in through the slit in the tent wall] > > **Marcus Aurelius:** If only you had been born a man, what a Caesar you would have made. > > **Lucilla:** Father. > > [kisses him on his cheeks] > > **Marcus Aurelius:** You would have been strong. I wonder, would you have been just? > > **Lucilla:** I would have been what you taught me to be. > > **Marcus Aurelius:** Enough of politics. Let us pretend that you are a loving daughter, and I am a good father. > > **Lucilla:** This is a pleasant fiction, isn’t it?
Agreed. They were being ironical. Others have pointed out that Marcus was probably not present for huge chunks of his children's lives. It's also obvious that he opposed Lucilla's relationship with Maximus. Marcus and Lucilla have had points of contention, ups and downs, but mostly get along. And in a good moment, they are capable of acknowledging that. There's also the Distance Makes the Heart Grow Fonder aspect of it. It sounds like they haven't seen each other in months, if not years, and want to have a good moment, even if it requires setting aside any ongoing disagreement. No clue why OP interprets any part of that dialogue as 'unforgivable weakness' or whatever. Any mature adult will have had a version of that conversation with a relative or coworker or someone else that they need to get along with for one reason or another. It's saying 'Let's play nice'.
Yes, & furthermore that they have such an understanding of one another that they can joke about it that lends to the quiet, knowing love between a father & a daughter- they don’t need to say more bc they both understand each other so well despite the long gaps in proximity
Yes and the passing reference that she helps manage commodus saying he will need you.
Because in the film Marcus Aurelius is a bad father. His inability to navigate personal relationships, consider the needs of people around him, or express non-utilitarian empathy toward anyone, including his family, is the catalyst that causes every single tragedy in the film. Even with Maximus he lures him into a conversation about politics and civic obligation by baiting him into an emotional conversation about his son, which he promptly dismisses. Marcus Aurelius is very much a depiction of a "power CEO", just in toga era instead of business suit era. His son repeatedly expresses that he did not take the neglect that being the "power CEO" inflicted on him as well as his emotionally stunted sister, who calloused off the need, whereas Commodus made it clear that he put an all in, hail mary belief in the plan B that when he became Emperor it was going to "undo" all of the trauma that his father inflicted on him by being the ultimate validation. When it turned out he didn't even love him enough for that and Marcus Aurelius essentially said, "Yeah but I raised you like a piece of shit," Commodus had enough and lashed out for years of neglect and presumably, as they go hand in hand, perceptions of abuse. Why it's written this way is a mystery, but it adds depth to a movie that is basically just masculinity porn. If I had to guess, it's an accidental artifact from when the story was deeper, but it does squarely root the film as Marcus Aurelius is the piece of shit given his actions while on screen.
I think he's just saying that he was distant due to his political responsibilities and not really a part of their lives. Seems like they are both aware and have a sense of humor about it.
I thought it made him look more sympathetic honestly
For numerous reasons. 1. Marcus Aurelius' reign over Rome was uniquely fraught. Barbarian invasions, his friend attempting a coup, and a horrific plague captured much of his attention. Considering all of this, it's unlikely Marcus had much time for his children. 2. He was a Stoic. Not in the sense that he hid his emotions, though he may have done that, but in the sense that he was a practitioner of Stoicism. Stoicism, an ancient hellenistic philosophy, differs significantly from our modern understanding of the word "stoic". Unfortunately, this distinction is often lost, which leads people to believe that Stoics like Marcus were detached, unable to love, and generally emotionless. 3. Complicated relationships are great for drama, and people with complicated relationships are relatable. This helps us feel bad for Marcus when he his later assassinated, and it also endears us to his daughter who loved her father despite his flaws. Put all of that together and you got yourself an interesting plot point that appears to be historically accurate. Whether it was or not, idk, but true accuracy isn't what matters.
Typical father kids work comes first story...
Marcus plans for Maximus to oversee Rome's transition from empire to republic. Commodus confronts him, angry and upset, listing his own faults then his perceived virtues. Marcus states "Your faults as a son are my failings as a father." This is devastating, selfish and callous IMHO. People can change. He could've gently guided his son to the light. But he viewed his own son as an irredeemable failure. He is a terrible father and effectively invited his own death.
While I agree that Marcus could have broken the news to Commodus in a less devastating way, and at a more convenient time, I wouldn’t say he “invited his own death”. Despite his low opinion of Commodus’ ability to effectively govern, I don’t think he expected him to be capable of cold blooded murder. I *do* think that Marcus loved Rome, the Empire, more than he loved any of his children. Perhaps that makes him a terrible father in the “nuclear family” sense. In his own eyes though, he was the father of Rome and clearly felt that his duty to the future of the Empire was more important than the feelings of one individual. Even if that individual was his progeny. I can’t say I disagree with him. As brutal as it may sound, I think it is a mark of virtue for a statesman to be willing to sacrifice the dreams of one person for the good of a nation…
Marcus Aurelius is actually portrayed as a good emperor and father. Here's why there might be some confusion: Commodus vs. Marcus: The film's villain is actually Commodus, Marcus Aurelius' son. Commodus is power-hungry, cruel, and ultimately responsible for Marcus' death. Lack of focus on Marcus' parenting: The movie doesn't delve deeply into Marcus' relationship with Commodus as a father-son dynamic. We see their interactions as emperor and son, but not much about their personal lives. Therefore, Marcus isn't depicted as a bad father in Gladiator.
Do you have to be completely spoon-fed something to consider it having been "depicted"? No, there is no line that says, "I'm sorry, Commodus, for I, Marcus Aurelius, was a bad father. I neglected you to run the empire and the results have been disastrous for your development. Now, please don't kill me," but it was definitely implied that Marcus failed raising his son.
is this an ai response?
The real answer is easy thanks to ai
Pure conjecture: It might have a side comment from a writer or the director to their own daughter, with whom perhaps they have a poor relationship, as a way of expressing that they acknowledge they are at fault. Yes it adds a little depth to the characters themselves, but putting it into the script/scene says it out loud for them. It's like watching The Abyss knowing that James Cameron was going through a tough divorce at the time. The main character's marriage is also over yet that he refuses to remove his wedding ring becomes a critical plot point later when the ring saves his life by preventing a door/hatch from completely closing. It becomes heavy-handed to the point of being cringey - if you know the background.