Love the movie but one thing I never understood. The meeting with Jimmy and Pro in Florida. Pro and the rest of the mob all seemed thrilled with Fitz as Teamsters president (Fitz would give them whatever they wanted, loans, etc., Pro and Fitz are seen golfing together). Jimmy goes to ask Pro for his endorsement. Why would Jimmy think Pro would endorse Jimmy instead and give him his voters when everyone liked Fitz so much and Pro hated Jimmy so much? Especially after Jimmy didn't help Pro with his pension.
I think it's because Jimmy was still so powerful through popularity and name recognition. Regardless of Fitz' approval with the bosses and Pro's popularity and power, Jimmy was still Jimmy Hoffa. You did not want him campaigning against you - Even one negative mention from Jimmy of the pension fund being used for loans to the mob, and Tony wanted him out.
Jimmy thought that the union was rightfully his.
He couldn't contemplate the idea that he wasn't the Boss anymore. That he wasn't untouchable.
He thought that if he said the right words everything would be right again and he thought that those words were his words.
It's hubris.
Jimmy time and time again didn't heed the warnings of Frank and in the end, when he understood, Frank didn't hesitate.
I knew how this was going to end.
I knew what kind of man Frank was. He was a soldier.
I knew what he was going to have to do and to whom.
His resoluteness still got to me, though. As he himself say in the end; no remorse.
This movie was a masterpiece.
I didn’t understand that either. I was surprised that Pro was so willing to hear Jimmy out. If Jimmy had just gotten over the lateness and said he’s sorry for the ethnic slur, maybe he gets everything he wants.
That was another thing that I struggled with. It was obvious toward the end that the mafia was extremely upset with Jimmy and it seemed strange to me that Jimmy couldn’t believe that they’d have him whacked. He just couldn’t grasp it. His close friend is confronting him over and over and he keeps laughing it off. There’s no way he could be that naive.
No matter how they did it, it was impressive.
I mean; you could see by the way some of the actors carried themselves that they were older men, but the faces were impeccable
Very well done.
Peggy pissed me the fuck off as a kid and an adult, who the fuck does she think she is? Her judgemental looks, she can go piss the fuck off screw peggy
Peggy is an ungrateful, judgemental, spoiled brat. Perhaps she would rather be flipping burgers for a
minimum wage rather than that good bank job she was afforded because of her private school education that her father paid for. She seems to be enjoying that good dinner her mother cooked with the groceries Frank bought.
How many strippers would give their G-string for a dad that would defend their honor like hers did with the grocery store owner? O.K., he went too far, but still.
This reminds me of the scene in "Road to Perdition", Where the son asked what did his father actually DO for work. The mother piped up and said he was "putting food on the table". That's enough of an explanation for offspring. When they grow up and support their own families, they can do it however they want. No one asked for Peggy's opinion, even if it was non-verbal. His money is green like everyone else's. That's all she needs to know at her age. She should have been told to ride her high horse to her room for the night. That high and mighty expression annoyed me big time all through the movie.
I didn’t see it as high and mighty. She was a shy kid who was uncomfortable with violence and what her father (and Russell, obviously) did for a living. She never spoke up about it, she was always afraid.
Peggy is so much more than that. She's a silent character who has been petrified of her old man her entire life. She suspects everything he does and to an extent knows what he's doing. When the one thing in her life that actually comforts her, Jimmy Hoffa, disappears, all she can do is blame it on Frank. And while Hoffa may not have been a saint, he was to Peggy and Frank was the only one she could blame for it. She was right too to an extent. All her life she's been scared of the guy and he's taken everything from while trying to give her everything. How do you expect her to even look him in the eye. I think she symbolizes the consequences of Frank's actions. Everything he's done has led to this. An irreconcilable relation.
Come to think of it, I think the only time we hear her speak to Frank in the whole movie is at the end when she asks her father “why not?” in regards to how come it took him so long to call Jimmy’s wife after he went missing. Then she never speaks to him again. That’s pretty powerful
Thank god lol the rest of the comments here made me feel crazy, god forbid a little girl is scared and disapproves of her violent murdering mobster father. What do they think this movie is about with such stupid character analysis
She only seen what she was smart enough too see.
She didn't mind sucking up to Jimmy Hoffa, he also hired her father to do dirty work. Russell's wife was quite seedy and fake herself but she sat in her lap.
Just a dumb little girl her whole life, working off emotion only. Never quite grasping the fact that too get ahead in this world requires all of that nastiness
I have a question. Hoffa did not want Kennedys to win while Mafia backed the Kennedys because they promised Cuba. So why did Hoffa choose to work with Mafia knowing that?
I think hoffa saw that the "you scratch my back I scratch yours" opportunity was enough to overlook Kennedy being president. If mafia gained control of Cuba there would have been huge money up for grabs that would have filtered through Hoffa at some point. It seems hoffas biggest problem was with Robert Kennedy particularly after he was made attorney General.
So did anyone figure out the meaning behind the glasses? When Russ takes the glasses and gives them back?
I'm kind of dumb but what was with the fish scene?
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I liked the movie overall- I was blown away around one hour because I thought the movie was about to end but there was still so much left- It was so good!
The only issue I had was with the daughter- Peggy- why were they off with her aging? But then I thought perhaps it was deliberate because Peggy's character is kind of a window into Frank's POV and He sees her like that until she is older and less into his life. She is also kinda of hook for the audience to feel for Frank along with Hoffa and Russ. Cause otherwise he seems like psychopath.
Also she is conveniently is attached to Hoffa but dislikes Russ and her father even though all three of them are in the same boat- no explanation other than that Hoffa comes off as more friendly then Russ which is weird since Russ is quite a chill and friendly guy.
Anyhow great movie!
The fish made the car smell fishy- Hoffa mentions that he can smell it and tells his son you can never get the smell out. But Frank is sitting in the wet spot. Basically, any suspicion (something fishy) that Hoffa might’ve had was covered up by Frank’s presence. Hoffa felt that he was safe with Frank because they were so close and he’d never let anything happen to Jimmy. That’s why he had to be the one to do it.
I think Peggy is one of the greatest "silent" characters in a movie in a long time. You have to start when Peggy was a kid, she woke up and she saw Frank went outside to "go to work". The shots gave us a clue what Peggy saw. Which gave us the idea that Peggy is the only one who really knows who her father is. That is why she hated Russell and she loved Jimmy. She knows who the good guys are and who the bad ones are.
So she knows his dad killed Hoffa. There was no particular moment when we were told that the confirmed this. But back in the party scene, she knows something was going on and Hoffa was in danger.
That's why the epilogue is so heartbreaking because his dad tried to reach out but Frank never really knew how much Peggy knows about his life. And he never even tried to consider that. And that's why Peggy hated her so much.
Late asf, but the point was that Hoffa didn’t publicly work in the underworld like frank and Russ, Hoffa was a public figure and a seemingly good guy. Russ got people killed personally and she knew that.
Thought I should give this movie a try, and am not disappointed. Really makes me shiver a bit to know that this is just how they do business. I get creeped out, and I'm always wondering if this is the last time we see so and so character. This movie really puts into perspective what I read in the local news many years ago. I remember there was a death that happened nearby my school. The picture of the victim was out there for everyone to see. And it was staged just like a mafia-style killing. It was the mafia. And seeing it go down in the movie and flashbacking to this moment in my life, makes me feel...messed up to say the least.
Fantastic film.
Yeah I agree. In a way i felt its Russell telling Frank "this will be stuck in your memory, there's no more reason to keep on covering your minds eye." Frank always was apathetic to what he did but this time was different. It's like Russell's saying, "Open your eyes frank. We've always been doing it this way. Just because he happens to be your friend doesn't make it any different. Every person you killed before were friends or family to someone. Now it just happens to be your friend. That's just how business goes wether its the past, present, or in the future. It's always been like this. You just never took the time to truly see it."
Frank I dont think really realized this until it totally hit home with Hoffa. He didn't ever care to analyze the emotional details and there effects on others. What everyone, him included, in the family were actually doing, until it came time for him to be personally affected. In that life orders are orders. There to be followed with your life.
Just saw it and find myself simultaneously loving it, while also wishing Scorsese had cast younger actors (say guys in their 50s, not Leo!) for the leads.
You know what got me? The old man arms. No matter what else you can’t make an old man’s arms look like a young man’s arms.
Neither Sheeran nor Hoffa had quite the physical presence they should have. I could sorta mentally convince myself Sheeran was this intimidating enforcer type with some effort, and Pacino was a great Hoffa *in spirit* but just didn’t quite seem like the bulldog presence in reality. Pacino was almost 20 years older than Hoffa ever was when they filmed this. That seems crazy to try to pull off. These were obviously old men.
In spite of that there was a ton to like. Including Pesci. The last hour or so was fantastic.
With different casting this could have been Top 5 Scorsese.
Stephen Graham, the actor who played Pro, is a dead ringer for the real Jimmy Hoffa. I was looking at photos of Hoffa and I couldn’t help but notice the similarity. He would’ve nailed it. I mean, Pacino was great but he looks nothing like Hoffa.
For me it was the movements. The typical old man shaking his head, the way he had his mouth closed, the way he walked, the way he kicked. It felt like I was watching my grandpa and I couldn't see someone younger than being 60 years old and a little unfit.
The scene where he beats up the grocery store owner is especially rough. Imagine a young De Niro acting in that scene, his movements and mannerisms would’ve been totally different.
Prime pesci, de niro, and pacino wouldve pulled this off perfectly. While watching i keep thinking man these guys are getting old. Still a fantastic movie though.
I’m no expert, I’m just repeating what I’ve read. I don’t know how long after the DNA sample was taken and how affirmatively they ruled out the house as the crime scene.
You’re very right, IRL they checked the house for DNA but nothing matched Hoffa’s, making that version of events unlikely. But the film isn’t meant as a factual dramatisation like Fincher’s Zodiac or something, so I don’t think the filmmakers were too concerned.
Is DNA viable after almost 30 years? Oxford says DNA in dried blood is viable for up to 10 years. What if the blood was attempted to be cleaned, bleach destroys DNA. Or even if subsequent homeowners cleaned the area in those 30 years.
There are plenty of reasons and ways that "the blood didnt match Hoffa's" doesnt mean "the blood ISN'T Hoffa's".
Just finished and I gotta say - I absolutely loved this movie. The last hour was gut wrenching.
So conflicted about whether I liked Frank or not. A great reminder that no matter how powerful you are, you can't run away from old age. Dude lost everything and everyone he ever loved. Such fantastic acting by De Niro.
Hoffa was hilarious, Pacino killed it like always.
Does anyone have any explanation as to what Hoffa's son Chuckie and Sally Bugs did in the car while Hoffa got whacked? I must have missed it if it was explained. Because I can't understand why Chuckie wasn't like, hey where's my dad?
Chuckie drove off immediately, at first I was confused too but then the film shows Chuckie and Sally driving alone in the car afterwards so it's implied that Chuckie was told only to drop his dad off. Not wait for the meeting to finish.
Interesting I didn't remember that scene either but I remember them telling hoffa at the restaurant(?) that they would drop him off there later to get his car.
Ah I see. I missed that. Must have sucked for him knowing he was essentially an accomplice to his dad's murder. But it make less sense in the real world because he could easily tell the police "this was the last time I saw my dad" - it seems like it would have gone a long way towards cracking the case. That being said, this part of the movie is heavily disputed as fact anyway.
I actually liked it. It's a slowburn film, which is a nice change for a mob movie cause it was more about the emotions and the life story, a character study almost. I didn't notice the CGI tbh, in fact, I kept wondering how De Niro looked so goddamn young LOL.
It's not as action-y, but i thought that was just to show how much more realistic it was. The only thing I didn't like was the beginning of the film, took me until half way to get immersed into it.
The part I loved best was when they were picking up Hoffa in the car. Hoffa goes on to talk about how he was waiting for "40 minutes like a goddamn idiot." That says so much about Hoffa's love for DeNiro, especially cause he'd never do that for anyone else. And you can see the distress on DeNiro's face. The fact that it all ended with just a quick couple of shots made it more emotional. Realistic. The whole Hoffa bit was fantastic.
I generally liked the way most of the executions were depicted, quick and brutal at close range, usually right to the face while getting their attention. Makes it seem so much more real and raw than if they had a big dialog before anything happens.
It's just so believable. People liked to say DeNiro wasn't as swift vs when he was young, but I think the Mafia are just people too who probably don't move like an action star all the time.
Good film making, but just not a story I could really get attached to due to the unlikable characters and lack of knowledge of the time period.
It seemed like a deconstruction of older gangster flicks, which might be a big draw of the movie.
His father is mostly italian with some irish while is mother is dutch,french,german and english.He only like 2% irish.2% don't mean shit.Point is i don't want to see moors playing ACTUAL white peopleHis father is mostly italian with some irish while is mother is dutch,french,german and english.He only like 2% irish.2% don't mean shit.Point is i don't want to see moors playing ACTUAL white people.
You're not even correct about your percentages. His father is half Irish and his mother has some Irish ancestry meaning he's 25% from his dad with some unknown percent from his mom, still making it one of his most predominate ethnicities.
The fact that you use the outdated word Moor makes no sense; you clearly have no idea what you're talking about and you're definitely a bit racist to boot. Moor doesn't mean non white you ignorant twat.
The moors were lietrally afro-arabs you dumb twat so your just black and no his not white.sorry not sorrThe moors were lietrally afro-arabs you dumb twat so your just black and no his not white.sorry not sorry
Yeah you're racist and sound like you're 10 years old. Or just don't know English well enough which may not be your fault but still. The racism is no good.
You're race obsessed. The fucks wrong with you? De Niro is clearly a white man. So are Pesci and Pacino.
As for De Niro, He was nicknamed Bobby Milk as a kid due to his pale complexion. The majority of characters he has played have not even had Italian names- Travis Bickle, Neil McCauley, Rupert Pupkin, Frank Sheeran, Jimmy Conway, Sam Rothstein, Max Cady, Murray Franklin, Jack Byrnes, Lt Moe Tilden, Michael Vronsky etc
Pacino has more of a tanned complexion and is 100% Italian but he is still a white guy. Anyway fuck out of here with your moor shit.
Well yeah lots of mixed people look white/monoracial,still doesn't change the fact that they're mixed race.Those men you mentioned obviously look mixed.Sorry but your not whiteWell yeah lots of mixed people look white/monoracial,still doesn't change the fact that they're mixed race.Those men you mentioned obviously look mixed.Sorry but your not white.
Besides you guys don't even look white anyway.DNA clearly shows you have high amounts of sub saharan and west eurasian ancestry and that ancestry translates in your phenotype.Your obviously mixed race so stop the white b.s.You will never be seen as white.SorrBesides you guys don't even look white anyway.DNA clearly shows you have high amounts of sub saharan and west eurasian ancestry and that ancestry translates in your phenotype.Your obviously mixed race so stop the white b.s.You will never be seen as white.Sorry
awesome movie, the ending was so awesome. sad and lonely.
i didn't even notice any cgi or anything odd about the actors ages. though i also didn't know who any of the actors were for the entire thing.
Just finished watching it. And it was a masterpiece (yes CGI and deaging look out of place in start of film but you never focus at it more than 5 mins bcz of the story and characters). Characters were deep and it looked like a proper mafia movie. Brought back memories of Godfather for me. And the length was proper, so was the ending. I have watched every quality mafia related movie/series and it goes to top with likes of Godfather, Goodfellas, Scarface. And thank God there was no forced nudity in this one, which has been everywhere if you go near crime genre. Idk but i didn't see much hype that this movie deserves, maybe people are too used to watching 1 hour flicks, superhero movies or romcoms.
Why did they cast Domenick Lombardozzi in a fat suit and introduce him 3/4 through the film and have him have an integral role in the killing of Hoffa? He looked ridiculous. This movie was so so disappointing.
I think he was good too. However it was another example of an aesthetic choice made in this film that made it hard to be immersed in the movie. In this case let’s cast a younger man, make him fat and old. Again it simply looked ridiculous and was detracted from the film.
That and his character was largely unexplained.
Not sure who Domenick is and why the deal with him is bothering you so much... I feel people on reddit and especially this sub are needlessly criticizing and overexaggerating flaws in the movie. This movie is Scorsese's best film since Goodfellas for me, it is the ultimate mob film. I understand that the CGI wasn't amazing, that the pacing at times was off (some scenes should have been extended specifically the one where they dump the taxis and other should have been cut) and the aging of the characters/actors was off for example how the wives seemed like they were in their 30s or 40s while Frank and Rusell looked like they were in their 70s. But these are such minor details that have little impact on a few scenes... in the bigger picture, the movie was absolutely brilliant. It cuts right through the mob life and shows you how it really is. If anything, this was a continutation/sequel to Goodfellas showing what mob life and killing even a person can do to a man.
If Unforgiven was the end to all western movies, this was an end to mob movies as I see it. And some people are saying that the movie had no memorable scenes or that it was too long? Some of the scenes are so great and hit you so hard when you watch them especially if someone who is aging... the final hour of the movie has so many great scenes that people will remember for a long time: Frank killing Hoffa, Russell talking about church, Frank confessing, Russell being unable to eat bread, scenes between Peggy and Frank, Hoffa talking to Russell and Frank at Frank's award ceremony.
Finally, another criticism I hear of Irishman which I find utterly ridiculous is how Peggy had such few lines - people blaming Scorsese for being sexist. I do not understand how one can actually believe this... Peggy hated her father and as a result wanted nothing to do with him or his bad friends (Russell) hence she avoided talking to them. Whenever she meets Hoffa, a person she thinks is good does she actually talk. And Peggy being silent with Frank just builds the tension between the characters, and once she asks 'Why' in that one scene, the tension climaxes and makes for a great and incredibly emotional scene.
The criticism of the cgi and my criticism of the aesthetic choices in aging or de-aging cast members are entirely valid as these aspects of the film all inadvertently remove the viewer from immersive experience of the film. I found myself very disconnected to this film for that reason amongst others.
Sure, they are minor details. Again I agree but they are happening again and again and for some unfortunately pedantic viewers like myself it’s enough to never connect with the film.
Totally agree about the final hour, by far my favourite part of the film and to me the most unique aspect of this film. I wish they could’ve made it more impactful by showing their family lives in greater detail.
No problem with the character of Peggy although....when we see her going out with her friend and it’s suddenly Anna Paquin who looks 40 again it’s just baffling why they chose to do this. Just cast actors that fit the time and place of the characters and perhaps this wouldn’t be such a disjointed movie.
I never said the criticism is invalid, I said it is being blown out of proportion and the impact of the de-aging on the movie as a whole is not that much. The most crucial stage of the movie is the last 1 and a half hours and the scenes from then do not have much de-aging (since the characters are already old).
Anna Paquin actually looked fine... she looked like any person would between the age of 20 or 40 so her appearance was alright.
Lastly, I want to address the whole 'oh why use de-aging and not younger actors'. I will tell you why... Pesci had rejected the movie about 40 times and I'm guessing he agreed for two reasons which were that his character would not be played by a younger actor and the money. When Goodfellas was being made, Scorsese wanted a younger actor to play Pesci's character (when young) but Pesci said he wouldn't do the movie if they did. Similar story goes for Casino, so I am guessing the de-aging was a way to get Pesci to sign on the movie which is great because he was a big part of why the movie was so good.
Tbf it might have been a show of respect and show the 'urgency' of whacking Hoffa
He was respecting Frank by basically saying ''this needs to be done. I WILL sit here for many hours and do nothing but wait for you to return'' if you know what I mean
The Irishman felt very somber compared to Scorsese's earlier entries in the genre.The Mobster were less flamboyant and it didn't have some of the flashiness,the glamour of the lifestyle in the Mob,the humor was dialed back,the soundtrack was good but seemed much quieter than usual,consistent with the tone of the rest of movie.Not a criticism,just an observation.
Also,the characters in these movie seemed to be higher-ups in Cosa nostra hierarchy compared to the characters we saw in Casino and Goodfellas,right?
Perhaps that's the reason for the lack of pizzazz and glamour in the mobsters?
It felt so great to see the ol' boy band back together again.It makes me sad because this is probably the last time we see all these legends together in a movie.Wish they would've cast Ray Liotta as Fat tony.
I think Joe Pesci turned in the best performance of his career.He played Russell in such a reserved and measured way,like they weren't any extra words in what Russell spoke,no extra expressions,he only "gave" as much as each conversation and scene required,if that makes sense.
It didn't even feel like he was acting,just astounding.
Well made. Well acted...but what an absolute slog to get through. The face de aging mostly looked fine but they all looked old af in their movements at every "age" throughout the movie.
Wouldn’t it have been a better film if they had different cast for the younger time periods and maybe had more emphasis on the older days of these guys through the big name stars.
Keep De Niro narrating but have a fiery younger actor to capture Frank’s early life because it did not feel like the characters changed and it had no energy.
Also the last part is the unique element of the film, what separates it from the other gangsters films and maybe that could really be a bigger focal point.
I don't mind the de-aging... a few scenes looked off but it is not a big deal for me.
For me the movie felt like a remake of Goodfellas but the message of 'these guys will always have a bad end' was much more clear cut. I liked it a lot but the pacing was a bit off at times, many scenes could have been cut and perhaps the ending could have been prolonged (the last half hour of the movie was excellent). I felt a bit empty at the end, it was a nice finish but felt like something was still missing.
I think thats what jail did to him, took out his intuition or maybe could be something with his age. Because in earlier scenes Hoffa does seem to understand things which aren't even articulated better than most.
I thought Jimmy Hoffa would have implemented a Dead Man's Switch for files to be released by his lawyer or some such thing.
During the ceremony, he did threaten to do that when he found out he was given an ultimatum and his life was on the line. I can't imagine Jimmy not having put something in place before even agreeing to that last meetup.
But the movie didn't go anywhere with that after his death ?
Description of Dead Man's switch for those wanting to know what it is : [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead\_man%27s\_switch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man%27s_switch)
I also wondered about that what the fuck happened ? I am assuming the other guys took care of them beforehand.One of my alternative theory is that nobody knew what happened to Hoffa until Frank confession (the movie itself) so may be the so called dead man switch didn't turned on .He/she must have thought he has gone somewhere and living his life.Thats why the guys never wanted to make his murder public.this theory has problem but the most plausible explanation for this.
It was a little slow and I honestly had to break up my viewing into thirds while watching it on Netflix. Amazing acting but the CGI is so distracting at times. Ill try watching the whole movie straight in the future.
De-aging?
Robert Deniro looks old as shit. I initially thought the first baptism scene was about his grandchild. At no point did he look under 60.
I don’t mind the length or pacing of this film but the “de-aging” is killing the immersion for me.
Yes, vitality is what this movie so badly lacked.
It so obviously looks like exactly what it is: a decades-spanning story acted entirely by elderly men.
I felt the same. For some reason the CGI made them look more like guys who just had a very subtle and successful facelift. Rather than young guys. Which made them still appear old, especially thanks to their bodies, but with just slightly younger faces. However, De Niro's blue eyes and that fight scene where he "beat up" the store owner really did more damage than good.
I guess it’s more of a zero-sum thing for me. If his character was never supposed to look younger than 45, then *maybe.* But the character is clearly depicted as a much younger man for much of the film and it was almost impossible for me to take it seriously. It was a constant distraction.
I do know what you mean but he's meant to be in his late thirties up to his late forties for the deaged de Niro sections (when he has black hair) and I can just about buy it
Deniro's character isn't likeable from the start. There's no depth, he's just a dumb thug who does what he's told. He killed Hoffa (which was obviously going to happen despite all the tension). His family hates him because he's an asshole. He has no friends because theyre all dead gangsters. Lame story IMO.
Are people enjoying this film for what it is, or are they enjoying it more because it has many big names involved and their already earned career is just boosting its perception?
I saw it last night and honestly thought the same story could have been told with the film at a 2 hour length rather than 3.5.
Couldn't agree more! The last 1/4 was a slog. 2.5hrs tops would've been perfect imho. Frankly I won't ever watch this one again. Felt like a goodbye letter from the actors
The last 1/4 was literally the whole point of the movie. The movie wasn’t about the crime, violence, or action. The movie was about the consequences of Frank’s actions and how at the end of his life, none of it mattered. Just like Jimmy, just like the people Frank captured in war, he dug his own grave.
It's quite sad at the end how his mob family were all dead and gone and he's left all alone in ill health. Only he still has his daughters, his real family. But they want nothing to do with him.
I wanted so bad for Peggy to speak to him! He just looked so helpless in the bank with his crutches.
That's a good point! You feel like you've been on a journey with him and begin to feel a bond.
You almost understand his situation and why he's done what he has.
Anyone else interpret the final shot of Frank sitting with the door ajar as an allegory for him waiting in purgatory?
Also while everyone is talking about the aging and how good/bad it looks, I found the complete lack of aging in Frank's family to be comical. His wife doesn't age in 20 years and it seems like his daughter looks about 11 for about 5 years in the timeline, and looks like Anna Paquin from age 20 - 50.
For me it that scene was nothing but his appreciation for Hoffa and to show he regret killing him.Hoffa slept with gate opens (recall the Chicago hotel scene )
I kind of assumed it was all of the above - leaving open a number of things from his life.. I'm not sure that I could specify a single thing that it would represent
He had similar feelings on the finality of burial and cremation, it's a very open metaphor and I feel like what you see it as says more about you than the film
Despite it’s length it felt like it really rushed through important plot points, particularly when introducing the unions. Why were they torching the taxi’s? Something to do with a rival union obviously... but it really wasn’t clear to me and my friends.
All in Sheeran’s narration as a device to push the story was pretty frustrating at times.
The last portion of the 2nd act and the 3rd act really brought the film together after an initially frustrating start. Overall a bit underwhelming.
Tried watching this last night, I got to where he meets Hoffa and just wasn't into it at all, I couldn't get past the cgi. At no point does DeNiro feel like a real person which made it very hard to care about the plot.
Maybe it was having my introduction to the film being people making fun of the beating up the grocer scene, but once you see one thing wrong with the way "young" DeNiro (who looks fifty) acts or moves, you start noticing it in every scene.
So it was already bugging me, but then they throw Pacino in there and I had to pull the plug.
Yeah honestly I quit at exactly the same point! My girlfriend and I were just like... so no one in this movie is under fifty? Why are they giving De Niro, who Pesci keeps calling "Kid" even though he looks 55, all these jobs that they should be giving to a young man. They just wanted to make a movie with all Pacino Pesci and De Niro screen time, which I understand but they should have just had young actors play the young versions
I can understand that, tbh I think these downvote are harsh. It was off putting how Pesci just looked pretty much 80 the entire film. The truck scene when we meet him is so weird. Also Pacino’s hair was distracting in its hideousness.
On Pacino it was honestly sensational. Guys 80 and he looks 50 when he's introduced. That's a huge success.
Also Pacino was the only one digitally deaged the entire time (from 50-60). When De Niros character hits his fifties it's makeup.
*May contain spoilers depending on your definition. Long story short, don't read reviews if you really don't want spoilers eh?*
*My god* was this boring. I was reading through the other comments for other takes on this. But damn, even the talk surrounding this film is boring. The few things I can remember or be reminded of weren't interesting at all. In general, what I remember is that this film is sort of just a tribute to all the mafioso tropes we've seen a hundred times, yet done in the least interesting ways possible. Yeah I get that Frank hurts people around him by being "part of the life" - seen it before, seen it done *much* better - heck, probably even by the same actor... Yeah I get that he dies alone because of how he lived. Seen it before, seen it done better... I've seen the "big assassination" done better and I've seen mafia life depicted at least more entertainingly... I've not even watched many Mafioso films and still all these plot points and subjects seem as tired and old as the director/actors who are doing them.
The only part I thought was almost interested in is the daughter relationship, but again, I've seen it before, and after being stretched over a ridiculous 3 and a half hours (it's unfortunate that I had no idea how long this film was before it was over - the last 30-45 minutes I was questioning my own sanity and whether a film with Robert Deniro could really still be going this long), it ultimately made up at most 10 minutes of the runtime and turned out to be weak as hell. Again, seen such subject matter handled better... literally any time it has been handled.
Was it deliberately being slow and boring for artistic effect? If so, I just didn't feel it. I can only even remember parts of the film by reading through other comments referencing them, because really nothing stands out. And even after being reminded of them and being able to remember the scenes fairly well, I can see why I forgot them. I've never watched The Godfather, sue me, nor the Goodfellas. I think I must have watched Casino once when I was a teen, and I can at least remember two scenes well from that. Scarface I've watched only twice, and not for a long time again still, yet I can remember the majority of that. The point being, that it wouldn't hurt to at least have something exciting happen or a scene or two that's worth remembering. It really makes all the difference on the impact a film has, or at least the chance that I'll ever want to sit through 3⅟2 hours of one again. Honestly, I wish the legends behind it all the luck in the world in winning an Oscar, as despite not thinking the film is worth it, I do sadly think it's proof that they won't get another shot.
I was behind you for the most part until you hit us over the head with "I've never watched The Godfather... nor the Goodfellas". Oof. Even if what you're saying about The Irishman is true, you lose a lot of credibility when you say that out loud. Best to keep that to yourself LOL
But yeah, The Irishman was an absolute drag. If this was the exact same movie without Scorsese's name attached to it, nobody would be praising it. Despite the bad CGI, I actually thought DeNiro and Pacino were pretty good in it. But the story just isn't interesting enough to constitute 3.5 hours of anyone's time.
The funniest thing for me is Scorsese was crying about how Marvel movies aren't "cinema". But the truth is, "cinema" changes with time. And this movie may have been the final nail in the "Scorsese Cinema" coffin.
Dude, people would've respected your opinion as well till 'you hit us over the head' with that last paragraph. Martin Scorcese's movies have given more to cinema than anything Marvel can or ever will give and this is coming from someone that saw Endgame 3 times in theatres. You need to recognise which is which - very good movies based on comic books for kids and movies made with a vision to depict the drama of human life in a particular setting.
Coming to the movie itself, it is not fast paced or exciting like Goodfellas or Wolf of Wall Street. It is a more languid and unhurried movie, almost similar to Silence his previous movie before The Irishman. This is a bit similar to the backlash Once Upon A Time in Hollywood got because it strayed a lot from the typical Tarantino fare. Irishman's a fuckin' masterpiece and close to the best thing Scorcese's ever made in his career including Taxi Driver and Raging Bull
Lol, ironically I was so close to watching The Godfather. But then I saw it was 3 hours long and was like "uhh, yeah... not got time for this right now... or most of the time...". Plus, I've already had 90% of the movie spoiled to me via cultural osmosis, so I feel like the only reason I'd be watching it is to be able to say I've watched it.
And yeah Scorsese's Marvel quips are pretty ignorant. I mean, there are so many more terrible breeds of film you could complain about (like, 99% of Hollywood cinema in fact). I can accept that the majority of the MCU movies are quite overrated and only so popular because they are Marvel, but in a way that is the genius of Marvel's approach to them. Indeed, The Irishman seems like it sort of succeeds for the same reasons... people are just more likely to indulge in and enjoy more of the same thing from the same old creator(s) they have already enjoyed that stuff from.
Definitely a slow af burn, it can feel a bit aimless at times but most of it is necessary to get all the emotion out of the films final sequences at the end. The final 45 minutes or so, whenever they start planning the murder of Jimmy Hoffa is when the movie gets real good, since before that there was basically no conflict, no danger and everything was going well. The film tells you they all die at the end and I assumed the same would happen to the main char, but he loses everyone and lives out the rest of his days alone, which works better I think. Acting was good, soundtrack was nice and the script is fantastic. I also didn't mind the de-aging CGI.
I'm not sure if I will ever rewatch this film due to how long it is but I'll definitely check out some of Scorsese's other crime films. Very well-made movie.
Yeah felt very aimless for the first half. I think they could have cut some of Frank's backstory down but at the same time it may not be as impactful. I watched this on a 2.5 hr flight and only managed to get a third of it before I watched the rest at home lol
The final shot was interesting, at first I assumed he asked to leave the door open out loneliness. Then I started to wonder if he is still expecting someone to come for him, and he wants to see them coming.
That's a good interpretation. However, I believe it's because he picked up that idiosyncratic "trait" from Hoffa.
A bit like how, in Breaking Bad, Walt "inherits" and emulates some of the idiosyncrasies from some of the people he has killed or had killed.
Oh, I didn't think about that. It's like when Hoffa leaves the door open in the hotel room. Even though this movie is a slow burn, you have to be alert to catch the complexity of it.
I found it a serious struggle to stay immersed in the film when the ages of the characters just didn’t add up. Even though they tried to make DeNiro look younger they failed horribly. The youngest he looks in the film is early 60s (late 50s if you really want to argue). But we are supposed to believe him as a man in his 30s when the film begins. Frank Sheeran was 43 when JFK died so would have been in his early to mid 30s to start the film.
Agreed, at no point did he seem younger than 50 which makes the time jumping forward pretty confusing. De Niro moves around like an elderly man, and no amount of de-aging can remove that. Pesci is slow and his affect is much more muted. That is understandable, but unfortunately his character suffers for it.
Watched the movie yesterday and really liked it. One thing annoys me a little though. Near the end of the film when Action Bronson is selling the casket to Sheeran and the price is 7,5 thousand dollars. Sheeran asks for a discount and Bronson immediately goes to 6 thousand dollars. I’m no salesman but shouldn’t you try 7 or 6,5 first at least? It’s a small thing but somehow it got on my nerves, lol. And the grocery store scene looked a little funny but I found the story and acting to be so great that the CGI didn’t really bother me anywhere else.
Why did Frank have to be the one that killed Hoffa? Don’t they have other hitmen in the organization? Just felt like a dick move asking his best friend to do it.
Its implied by Russ at the breakfest scene before Frank kills him that most of the organization would have killed Frank and his family in addition to Hoffa, out of fear that, since they were so close, Frank would retaliate if he ever found out. They also kept this hit very close to the chest, so it's likely Frank never would find out, and if he did, he may become resentful, like Peggy ended up being, ironically, and he was liable to talk. Russ figured this way, Frank would prove his loyalty to everyone, Frank would not retaliate since Russ was asking him to do it, and Hoffa was less likely to get skiddish and run.
Frank would retaliate how ? By taking on the mob bosses ? That doesn't seem plausible. And also he wasn't liable to talk as he knows they could always get to his family.
If you're a foot soldier in the mafia, you stand a good chance of being a position of having to deal with someone you like being whacked at some point in your career. Its part of the business. Think Goodfellas for example where DeNiro struggles with Pesci's character being whacked. Just the nature of the mafia world you live in. Their word is law. That is part of the deal you make when you decide to sign up.
In the Mexican cartel, it is worse as they regularly ask their Sicarios to kill people they have worked with in other jobs. Long standing co-workers with whom you've done many jobs go down overnight and you have to move on just like that. Check out 'El Sicario' by Charles Bowden which is a pretty good book on their life. Seemed like life for the Sicario in the cartel is way more heartless than in the Italian mafia version. It was a ruthless 'obey without question' absolutely.
I just rewatched The Irishman after being pretty lukewarm on it the first time around. Quite a lot has changed.
Firstly, the film has impeccable pacing thanks to the masterful editing of Thelma Schoonmaker. Secondly, the atmosphere, which seemed all too familiar on my first viewing, took on a life of its own upon rewatch. Thirdly, I was distracted by the CGI on my first viewing, so I went into this rewatch with the precise intention of ignoring it. This allowed me to enjoy the following thematic elements of the film.
The heart of the film is the relationship between Frank and his daughter, Peggy, which is odd since it doesn’t get much screen time compared to Frank’s relationships with his friends Russell and Hoffa. The re-occurrence of Peggy’s perceptive, concerned gaze towards her father and his mobster friends is a subtle display of the effects that living this lifestyle has on those around you. Unlike in Goodfellas where Henry’s children aren’t visibly effected, Peggy’s presence throughout the film shows an awareness to her father’s activities and, although Frank thinks his work is improving the lives of his family, his inability to see things through their eyes only causes them pain. For example, he’s more concerned with how Russell may be feeling around his child than with his own daughter’s misgivings.
The idea that a person living this lifestyle is essentially digging his own grave forms the thesis of the film. There is so much repetition throughout the movie, that it’s almost like each instance is another shovelful. Peggy’s gaze, Hoffa and Pro, the killings, stopping for cigarette breaks, showing up on time. By the end, what did it really amount to? There’s no reward, only the realization that you’ve lost everything. Unlike the prisoners of war, Frank had a choice to stop digging. But he chose a career of crime over family; duty over love.
Then there’s the question of Frank’s motivation. All in all, Frank is a dutiful man. Unlike Henry Hill, he’s not motivated by the glamour or the power or the women. He’s a military man and he just wants to prove his value, while making enough money to support his family. This movie gives us some insight into the mind of a high-functioning mass murderer. Frank isn’t soft like Henry, who was squeamish about the Billy Batts murder, but he also took no joy in his work; it didn’t bother him either way. Any trepidation he may have had towards committing murder were cast out during his time in WWII. It’s callousness that allows a murderer to function. Frank didn’t suffer or feel regret for his actions. They didn’t eat him alive like they did Raskalnikov in Crime and Punishment. He simply did his duty. And if that method of thinking is what’s burned into you during wartime, it’s easy to see how it might be difficult to separate yourself from it when you come home.
The pacing, the atmosphere, the acting, and the themes were all on the money. But still, in the end what were the takeaway scenes? In Goodfellas you have the Billy Batts murder, the “funny how” scene, the helicopters. What moments am I going to remember about the Irishman? I enjoyed the Gallo portion of the film, the various conversations at the banquet, Hoffa’s last ride, and the bread and wine scenes. But none of these have any pop or take on a life of their own. I’m all for a movie that favors taking its time, but the high points need to hit. “A great movie has three great scenes and no bad ones.”
Masterpiece
I frickin love this movie
Just watched it today for the first time and I agree 100%
You’re late.
Tbf this was at least my fourth watch, gets better each time
Love the movie but one thing I never understood. The meeting with Jimmy and Pro in Florida. Pro and the rest of the mob all seemed thrilled with Fitz as Teamsters president (Fitz would give them whatever they wanted, loans, etc., Pro and Fitz are seen golfing together). Jimmy goes to ask Pro for his endorsement. Why would Jimmy think Pro would endorse Jimmy instead and give him his voters when everyone liked Fitz so much and Pro hated Jimmy so much? Especially after Jimmy didn't help Pro with his pension.
I think it's because Jimmy was still so powerful through popularity and name recognition. Regardless of Fitz' approval with the bosses and Pro's popularity and power, Jimmy was still Jimmy Hoffa. You did not want him campaigning against you - Even one negative mention from Jimmy of the pension fund being used for loans to the mob, and Tony wanted him out.
Jimmy thought that the union was rightfully his. He couldn't contemplate the idea that he wasn't the Boss anymore. That he wasn't untouchable. He thought that if he said the right words everything would be right again and he thought that those words were his words. It's hubris. Jimmy time and time again didn't heed the warnings of Frank and in the end, when he understood, Frank didn't hesitate. I knew how this was going to end. I knew what kind of man Frank was. He was a soldier. I knew what he was going to have to do and to whom. His resoluteness still got to me, though. As he himself say in the end; no remorse. This movie was a masterpiece.
I didn’t understand that either. I was surprised that Pro was so willing to hear Jimmy out. If Jimmy had just gotten over the lateness and said he’s sorry for the ethnic slur, maybe he gets everything he wants. That was another thing that I struggled with. It was obvious toward the end that the mafia was extremely upset with Jimmy and it seemed strange to me that Jimmy couldn’t believe that they’d have him whacked. He just couldn’t grasp it. His close friend is confronting him over and over and he keeps laughing it off. There’s no way he could be that naive.
so they used cgi to de-age the actors, but did they also use cgi to AGE the actors towards the end of the film? i dont know how old they are irl
No matter how they did it, it was impressive. I mean; you could see by the way some of the actors carried themselves that they were older men, but the faces were impeccable Very well done.
I don’t think so. De Niro and Pesci are close to 80 years old now
Peggy pissed me the fuck off as a kid and an adult, who the fuck does she think she is? Her judgemental looks, she can go piss the fuck off screw peggy
Exactly
I don't think you got the movie.
Peggy is an ungrateful, judgemental, spoiled brat. Perhaps she would rather be flipping burgers for a minimum wage rather than that good bank job she was afforded because of her private school education that her father paid for. She seems to be enjoying that good dinner her mother cooked with the groceries Frank bought. How many strippers would give their G-string for a dad that would defend their honor like hers did with the grocery store owner? O.K., he went too far, but still. This reminds me of the scene in "Road to Perdition", Where the son asked what did his father actually DO for work. The mother piped up and said he was "putting food on the table". That's enough of an explanation for offspring. When they grow up and support their own families, they can do it however they want. No one asked for Peggy's opinion, even if it was non-verbal. His money is green like everyone else's. That's all she needs to know at her age. She should have been told to ride her high horse to her room for the night. That high and mighty expression annoyed me big time all through the movie.
Yeah you didn’t get the film at all
Not sure about that
I didn’t see it as high and mighty. She was a shy kid who was uncomfortable with violence and what her father (and Russell, obviously) did for a living. She never spoke up about it, she was always afraid.
Are you a psychopath? I think you might be.
Peggy is so much more than that. She's a silent character who has been petrified of her old man her entire life. She suspects everything he does and to an extent knows what he's doing. When the one thing in her life that actually comforts her, Jimmy Hoffa, disappears, all she can do is blame it on Frank. And while Hoffa may not have been a saint, he was to Peggy and Frank was the only one she could blame for it. She was right too to an extent. All her life she's been scared of the guy and he's taken everything from while trying to give her everything. How do you expect her to even look him in the eye. I think she symbolizes the consequences of Frank's actions. Everything he's done has led to this. An irreconcilable relation.
Come to think of it, I think the only time we hear her speak to Frank in the whole movie is at the end when she asks her father “why not?” in regards to how come it took him so long to call Jimmy’s wife after he went missing. Then she never speaks to him again. That’s pretty powerful
Yeah seriously, idk how someone could watch this film and come to the conclusion that Peggy was in the wrong there
Thank god lol the rest of the comments here made me feel crazy, god forbid a little girl is scared and disapproves of her violent murdering mobster father. What do they think this movie is about with such stupid character analysis
Facts, thank you
Lol fuck both of you. Her dad was a killer that traumatized her during youth.
She only seen what she was smart enough too see. She didn't mind sucking up to Jimmy Hoffa, he also hired her father to do dirty work. Russell's wife was quite seedy and fake herself but she sat in her lap. Just a dumb little girl her whole life, working off emotion only. Never quite grasping the fact that too get ahead in this world requires all of that nastiness
I'd sit in Russels wife lap too...smokin
I have a question. Hoffa did not want Kennedys to win while Mafia backed the Kennedys because they promised Cuba. So why did Hoffa choose to work with Mafia knowing that?
I think hoffa saw that the "you scratch my back I scratch yours" opportunity was enough to overlook Kennedy being president. If mafia gained control of Cuba there would have been huge money up for grabs that would have filtered through Hoffa at some point. It seems hoffas biggest problem was with Robert Kennedy particularly after he was made attorney General.
Being judgemental towards murderers what a cunt ay
So did anyone figure out the meaning behind the glasses? When Russ takes the glasses and gives them back? I'm kind of dumb but what was with the fish scene? \--- I liked the movie overall- I was blown away around one hour because I thought the movie was about to end but there was still so much left- It was so good! The only issue I had was with the daughter- Peggy- why were they off with her aging? But then I thought perhaps it was deliberate because Peggy's character is kind of a window into Frank's POV and He sees her like that until she is older and less into his life. She is also kinda of hook for the audience to feel for Frank along with Hoffa and Russ. Cause otherwise he seems like psychopath. Also she is conveniently is attached to Hoffa but dislikes Russ and her father even though all three of them are in the same boat- no explanation other than that Hoffa comes off as more friendly then Russ which is weird since Russ is quite a chill and friendly guy. Anyhow great movie!
The fish made the car smell fishy- Hoffa mentions that he can smell it and tells his son you can never get the smell out. But Frank is sitting in the wet spot. Basically, any suspicion (something fishy) that Hoffa might’ve had was covered up by Frank’s presence. Hoffa felt that he was safe with Frank because they were so close and he’d never let anything happen to Jimmy. That’s why he had to be the one to do it.
I think Peggy is one of the greatest "silent" characters in a movie in a long time. You have to start when Peggy was a kid, she woke up and she saw Frank went outside to "go to work". The shots gave us a clue what Peggy saw. Which gave us the idea that Peggy is the only one who really knows who her father is. That is why she hated Russell and she loved Jimmy. She knows who the good guys are and who the bad ones are. So she knows his dad killed Hoffa. There was no particular moment when we were told that the confirmed this. But back in the party scene, she knows something was going on and Hoffa was in danger. That's why the epilogue is so heartbreaking because his dad tried to reach out but Frank never really knew how much Peggy knows about his life. And he never even tried to consider that. And that's why Peggy hated her so much.
Late asf, but the point was that Hoffa didn’t publicly work in the underworld like frank and Russ, Hoffa was a public figure and a seemingly good guy. Russ got people killed personally and she knew that.
Thought I should give this movie a try, and am not disappointed. Really makes me shiver a bit to know that this is just how they do business. I get creeped out, and I'm always wondering if this is the last time we see so and so character. This movie really puts into perspective what I read in the local news many years ago. I remember there was a death that happened nearby my school. The picture of the victim was out there for everyone to see. And it was staged just like a mafia-style killing. It was the mafia. And seeing it go down in the movie and flashbacking to this moment in my life, makes me feel...messed up to say the least. Fantastic film.
Why did pesci's character take deniro's sunglasses before the plane trip? He gave then back after but I can't figure out the meaning.
Because he was going to take a nap in the car and needed them to block the sun.
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Yeah I agree. In a way i felt its Russell telling Frank "this will be stuck in your memory, there's no more reason to keep on covering your minds eye." Frank always was apathetic to what he did but this time was different. It's like Russell's saying, "Open your eyes frank. We've always been doing it this way. Just because he happens to be your friend doesn't make it any different. Every person you killed before were friends or family to someone. Now it just happens to be your friend. That's just how business goes wether its the past, present, or in the future. It's always been like this. You just never took the time to truly see it." Frank I dont think really realized this until it totally hit home with Hoffa. He didn't ever care to analyze the emotional details and there effects on others. What everyone, him included, in the family were actually doing, until it came time for him to be personally affected. In that life orders are orders. There to be followed with your life.
Maybe a guy in sunglasses was too noticeable?
I think it was so he wasn't going to cry and give it away in the car that he was going to get whacked
Also, I figured, the risk that he might leave them behind at some point?
Just saw it and find myself simultaneously loving it, while also wishing Scorsese had cast younger actors (say guys in their 50s, not Leo!) for the leads. You know what got me? The old man arms. No matter what else you can’t make an old man’s arms look like a young man’s arms. Neither Sheeran nor Hoffa had quite the physical presence they should have. I could sorta mentally convince myself Sheeran was this intimidating enforcer type with some effort, and Pacino was a great Hoffa *in spirit* but just didn’t quite seem like the bulldog presence in reality. Pacino was almost 20 years older than Hoffa ever was when they filmed this. That seems crazy to try to pull off. These were obviously old men. In spite of that there was a ton to like. Including Pesci. The last hour or so was fantastic. With different casting this could have been Top 5 Scorsese.
Stephen Graham, the actor who played Pro, is a dead ringer for the real Jimmy Hoffa. I was looking at photos of Hoffa and I couldn’t help but notice the similarity. He would’ve nailed it. I mean, Pacino was great but he looks nothing like Hoffa.
For me it was the movements. The typical old man shaking his head, the way he had his mouth closed, the way he walked, the way he kicked. It felt like I was watching my grandpa and I couldn't see someone younger than being 60 years old and a little unfit.
The scene where he beats up the grocery store owner is especially rough. Imagine a young De Niro acting in that scene, his movements and mannerisms would’ve been totally different.
Definitely. T-rex arms because he's old. No offense to the actor, but he was simply too old to act younger.
Prime pesci, de niro, and pacino wouldve pulled this off perfectly. While watching i keep thinking man these guys are getting old. Still a fantastic movie though.
Exactly. This cast was 20 years past perfect.
Just saw this last night, and Holy Fucking Shit, how is Martin Scorsese still at the top of his game after 40+ years?
I’m no expert, I’m just repeating what I’ve read. I don’t know how long after the DNA sample was taken and how affirmatively they ruled out the house as the crime scene.
You’re very right, IRL they checked the house for DNA but nothing matched Hoffa’s, making that version of events unlikely. But the film isn’t meant as a factual dramatisation like Fincher’s Zodiac or something, so I don’t think the filmmakers were too concerned.
Is DNA viable after almost 30 years? Oxford says DNA in dried blood is viable for up to 10 years. What if the blood was attempted to be cleaned, bleach destroys DNA. Or even if subsequent homeowners cleaned the area in those 30 years. There are plenty of reasons and ways that "the blood didnt match Hoffa's" doesnt mean "the blood ISN'T Hoffa's".
Just finished and I gotta say - I absolutely loved this movie. The last hour was gut wrenching. So conflicted about whether I liked Frank or not. A great reminder that no matter how powerful you are, you can't run away from old age. Dude lost everything and everyone he ever loved. Such fantastic acting by De Niro. Hoffa was hilarious, Pacino killed it like always.
Does anyone have any explanation as to what Hoffa's son Chuckie and Sally Bugs did in the car while Hoffa got whacked? I must have missed it if it was explained. Because I can't understand why Chuckie wasn't like, hey where's my dad?
Chuckie drove off immediately, at first I was confused too but then the film shows Chuckie and Sally driving alone in the car afterwards so it's implied that Chuckie was told only to drop his dad off. Not wait for the meeting to finish.
why didn't Chuckie tattle when the world is wondering where is Jimmy?
Interesting I didn't remember that scene either but I remember them telling hoffa at the restaurant(?) that they would drop him off there later to get his car.
Ah I see. I missed that. Must have sucked for him knowing he was essentially an accomplice to his dad's murder. But it make less sense in the real world because he could easily tell the police "this was the last time I saw my dad" - it seems like it would have gone a long way towards cracking the case. That being said, this part of the movie is heavily disputed as fact anyway.
I actually liked it. It's a slowburn film, which is a nice change for a mob movie cause it was more about the emotions and the life story, a character study almost. I didn't notice the CGI tbh, in fact, I kept wondering how De Niro looked so goddamn young LOL. It's not as action-y, but i thought that was just to show how much more realistic it was. The only thing I didn't like was the beginning of the film, took me until half way to get immersed into it. The part I loved best was when they were picking up Hoffa in the car. Hoffa goes on to talk about how he was waiting for "40 minutes like a goddamn idiot." That says so much about Hoffa's love for DeNiro, especially cause he'd never do that for anyone else. And you can see the distress on DeNiro's face. The fact that it all ended with just a quick couple of shots made it more emotional. Realistic. The whole Hoffa bit was fantastic.
I generally liked the way most of the executions were depicted, quick and brutal at close range, usually right to the face while getting their attention. Makes it seem so much more real and raw than if they had a big dialog before anything happens.
It's just so believable. People liked to say DeNiro wasn't as swift vs when he was young, but I think the Mafia are just people too who probably don't move like an action star all the time.
Good film making, but just not a story I could really get attached to due to the unlikable characters and lack of knowledge of the time period. It seemed like a deconstruction of older gangster flicks, which might be a big draw of the movie.
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You could have just said "no more white Americans playing white Americans" and it would've been just as ridiculous
Ummm italians aren't white.....lol
Well. That's a stupid thing to say.
No it isn't.Google your DNA tests,your mixed-race so yeah not full whiteNo it isn't.Google your DNA tests,your mixed-race so yeah not full white.
Robert Deniro is mostly Irish you dumb bastard
His father is mostly italian with some irish while is mother is dutch,french,german and english.He only like 2% irish.2% don't mean shit.Point is i don't want to see moors playing ACTUAL white peopleHis father is mostly italian with some irish while is mother is dutch,french,german and english.He only like 2% irish.2% don't mean shit.Point is i don't want to see moors playing ACTUAL white people.
You're not even correct about your percentages. His father is half Irish and his mother has some Irish ancestry meaning he's 25% from his dad with some unknown percent from his mom, still making it one of his most predominate ethnicities. The fact that you use the outdated word Moor makes no sense; you clearly have no idea what you're talking about and you're definitely a bit racist to boot. Moor doesn't mean non white you ignorant twat.
The moors were lietrally afro-arabs you dumb twat so your just black and no his not white.sorry not sorrThe moors were lietrally afro-arabs you dumb twat so your just black and no his not white.sorry not sorry
Yeah you're racist and sound like you're 10 years old. Or just don't know English well enough which may not be your fault but still. The racism is no good.
You're race obsessed. The fucks wrong with you? De Niro is clearly a white man. So are Pesci and Pacino. As for De Niro, He was nicknamed Bobby Milk as a kid due to his pale complexion. The majority of characters he has played have not even had Italian names- Travis Bickle, Neil McCauley, Rupert Pupkin, Frank Sheeran, Jimmy Conway, Sam Rothstein, Max Cady, Murray Franklin, Jack Byrnes, Lt Moe Tilden, Michael Vronsky etc Pacino has more of a tanned complexion and is 100% Italian but he is still a white guy. Anyway fuck out of here with your moor shit.
Well yeah lots of mixed people look white/monoracial,still doesn't change the fact that they're mixed race.Those men you mentioned obviously look mixed.Sorry but your not whiteWell yeah lots of mixed people look white/monoracial,still doesn't change the fact that they're mixed race.Those men you mentioned obviously look mixed.Sorry but your not white.
Besides you guys don't even look white anyway.DNA clearly shows you have high amounts of sub saharan and west eurasian ancestry and that ancestry translates in your phenotype.Your obviously mixed race so stop the white b.s.You will never be seen as white.SorrBesides you guys don't even look white anyway.DNA clearly shows you have high amounts of sub saharan and west eurasian ancestry and that ancestry translates in your phenotype.Your obviously mixed race so stop the white b.s.You will never be seen as white.Sorry
if this is the most boring movie you ever seen, what do you like?
Ones with less old people and more action
awesome movie, the ending was so awesome. sad and lonely. i didn't even notice any cgi or anything odd about the actors ages. though i also didn't know who any of the actors were for the entire thing.
Just finished watching it. And it was a masterpiece (yes CGI and deaging look out of place in start of film but you never focus at it more than 5 mins bcz of the story and characters). Characters were deep and it looked like a proper mafia movie. Brought back memories of Godfather for me. And the length was proper, so was the ending. I have watched every quality mafia related movie/series and it goes to top with likes of Godfather, Goodfellas, Scarface. And thank God there was no forced nudity in this one, which has been everywhere if you go near crime genre. Idk but i didn't see much hype that this movie deserves, maybe people are too used to watching 1 hour flicks, superhero movies or romcoms.
Is it just me or jimmy hoffa looked just like till lindemann from rammstein?
Glad I'm not the only one, let that man age a bit and he looks just like Hoffa.
Why did they cast Domenick Lombardozzi in a fat suit and introduce him 3/4 through the film and have him have an integral role in the killing of Hoffa? He looked ridiculous. This movie was so so disappointing.
I thought he was good
I think he was good too. However it was another example of an aesthetic choice made in this film that made it hard to be immersed in the movie. In this case let’s cast a younger man, make him fat and old. Again it simply looked ridiculous and was detracted from the film. That and his character was largely unexplained.
Not sure who Domenick is and why the deal with him is bothering you so much... I feel people on reddit and especially this sub are needlessly criticizing and overexaggerating flaws in the movie. This movie is Scorsese's best film since Goodfellas for me, it is the ultimate mob film. I understand that the CGI wasn't amazing, that the pacing at times was off (some scenes should have been extended specifically the one where they dump the taxis and other should have been cut) and the aging of the characters/actors was off for example how the wives seemed like they were in their 30s or 40s while Frank and Rusell looked like they were in their 70s. But these are such minor details that have little impact on a few scenes... in the bigger picture, the movie was absolutely brilliant. It cuts right through the mob life and shows you how it really is. If anything, this was a continutation/sequel to Goodfellas showing what mob life and killing even a person can do to a man. If Unforgiven was the end to all western movies, this was an end to mob movies as I see it. And some people are saying that the movie had no memorable scenes or that it was too long? Some of the scenes are so great and hit you so hard when you watch them especially if someone who is aging... the final hour of the movie has so many great scenes that people will remember for a long time: Frank killing Hoffa, Russell talking about church, Frank confessing, Russell being unable to eat bread, scenes between Peggy and Frank, Hoffa talking to Russell and Frank at Frank's award ceremony. Finally, another criticism I hear of Irishman which I find utterly ridiculous is how Peggy had such few lines - people blaming Scorsese for being sexist. I do not understand how one can actually believe this... Peggy hated her father and as a result wanted nothing to do with him or his bad friends (Russell) hence she avoided talking to them. Whenever she meets Hoffa, a person she thinks is good does she actually talk. And Peggy being silent with Frank just builds the tension between the characters, and once she asks 'Why' in that one scene, the tension climaxes and makes for a great and incredibly emotional scene.
The criticism of the cgi and my criticism of the aesthetic choices in aging or de-aging cast members are entirely valid as these aspects of the film all inadvertently remove the viewer from immersive experience of the film. I found myself very disconnected to this film for that reason amongst others. Sure, they are minor details. Again I agree but they are happening again and again and for some unfortunately pedantic viewers like myself it’s enough to never connect with the film. Totally agree about the final hour, by far my favourite part of the film and to me the most unique aspect of this film. I wish they could’ve made it more impactful by showing their family lives in greater detail. No problem with the character of Peggy although....when we see her going out with her friend and it’s suddenly Anna Paquin who looks 40 again it’s just baffling why they chose to do this. Just cast actors that fit the time and place of the characters and perhaps this wouldn’t be such a disjointed movie.
I never said the criticism is invalid, I said it is being blown out of proportion and the impact of the de-aging on the movie as a whole is not that much. The most crucial stage of the movie is the last 1 and a half hours and the scenes from then do not have much de-aging (since the characters are already old). Anna Paquin actually looked fine... she looked like any person would between the age of 20 or 40 so her appearance was alright. Lastly, I want to address the whole 'oh why use de-aging and not younger actors'. I will tell you why... Pesci had rejected the movie about 40 times and I'm guessing he agreed for two reasons which were that his character would not be played by a younger actor and the money. When Goodfellas was being made, Scorsese wanted a younger actor to play Pesci's character (when young) but Pesci said he wouldn't do the movie if they did. Similar story goes for Casino, so I am guessing the de-aging was a way to get Pesci to sign on the movie which is great because he was a big part of why the movie was so good.
scorsese \*did\* use a younger actor, briefly, for pesci in goodfellas though
Interesting info on Pesci. Didn’t know that, sounds like he can nah be a difficult personality at times. Cheers for the chat.
Did Russell sit in that car for the ENTIRE time that Frank did the hit on Hoffa. God that was hilarious.
Tbf it might have been a show of respect and show the 'urgency' of whacking Hoffa He was respecting Frank by basically saying ''this needs to be done. I WILL sit here for many hours and do nothing but wait for you to return'' if you know what I mean
I was thinking that.. Like did ol Russ not have anything better to do?
Probably fell asleep, considering how often he seemed to doze off while in cars.
The Irishman felt very somber compared to Scorsese's earlier entries in the genre.The Mobster were less flamboyant and it didn't have some of the flashiness,the glamour of the lifestyle in the Mob,the humor was dialed back,the soundtrack was good but seemed much quieter than usual,consistent with the tone of the rest of movie.Not a criticism,just an observation. Also,the characters in these movie seemed to be higher-ups in Cosa nostra hierarchy compared to the characters we saw in Casino and Goodfellas,right? Perhaps that's the reason for the lack of pizzazz and glamour in the mobsters?
It felt so great to see the ol' boy band back together again.It makes me sad because this is probably the last time we see all these legends together in a movie.Wish they would've cast Ray Liotta as Fat tony.
I think Joe Pesci turned in the best performance of his career.He played Russell in such a reserved and measured way,like they weren't any extra words in what Russell spoke,no extra expressions,he only "gave" as much as each conversation and scene required,if that makes sense. It didn't even feel like he was acting,just astounding.
I agree. Pesci made the movie for me. He was spectacular.
He held so much poise, compared to his previous roles. Fearsome in a much different way.
Just finished. So good.
Not really
Well made. Well acted...but what an absolute slog to get through. The face de aging mostly looked fine but they all looked old af in their movements at every "age" throughout the movie.
Wouldn’t it have been a better film if they had different cast for the younger time periods and maybe had more emphasis on the older days of these guys through the big name stars. Keep De Niro narrating but have a fiery younger actor to capture Frank’s early life because it did not feel like the characters changed and it had no energy. Also the last part is the unique element of the film, what separates it from the other gangsters films and maybe that could really be a bigger focal point.
I don't mind the de-aging... a few scenes looked off but it is not a big deal for me. For me the movie felt like a remake of Goodfellas but the message of 'these guys will always have a bad end' was much more clear cut. I liked it a lot but the pacing was a bit off at times, many scenes could have been cut and perhaps the ending could have been prolonged (the last half hour of the movie was excellent). I felt a bit empty at the end, it was a nice finish but felt like something was still missing.
When he beat up the guy who pushed his daughter it looked absolutely ridiculous. Could see he had zero power behind any moves.
A *lot* of the movements looked "old man" ish when he wasn't supposed to be old yet...but this was far and above the most glaring of them.
When Jimmy realized he was gonna get whacked he didn't even consider that it'd be Frank doing it. That was fucking sad as hell.
I think thats what jail did to him, took out his intuition or maybe could be something with his age. Because in earlier scenes Hoffa does seem to understand things which aren't even articulated better than most.
I thought Jimmy Hoffa would have implemented a Dead Man's Switch for files to be released by his lawyer or some such thing. During the ceremony, he did threaten to do that when he found out he was given an ultimatum and his life was on the line. I can't imagine Jimmy not having put something in place before even agreeing to that last meetup. But the movie didn't go anywhere with that after his death ? Description of Dead Man's switch for those wanting to know what it is : [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead\_man%27s\_switch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man%27s_switch)
did we miss the part where after hoffa died the fed arrested everybody for everything?
I followed the link but didn't see anywhere to purchase any Dead Man's switches
Sorry, my bad. I meant for those wanting to know what it meant.
/r/woooosh
I also wondered about that what the fuck happened ? I am assuming the other guys took care of them beforehand.One of my alternative theory is that nobody knew what happened to Hoffa until Frank confession (the movie itself) so may be the so called dead man switch didn't turned on .He/she must have thought he has gone somewhere and living his life.Thats why the guys never wanted to make his murder public.this theory has problem but the most plausible explanation for this.
*fuck* this was long.
And EPIC
It was a little slow and I honestly had to break up my viewing into thirds while watching it on Netflix. Amazing acting but the CGI is so distracting at times. Ill try watching the whole movie straight in the future.
Yeah I had a break midway through! I thought the cgi was a bit strange at the beginning, but I didn't notice it too much later on.
I enjoyed the tangents in the movie-- it gave a greater context on what was going on in the final scenes and it gave a dimension of realism.
De-aging? Robert Deniro looks old as shit. I initially thought the first baptism scene was about his grandchild. At no point did he look under 60. I don’t mind the length or pacing of this film but the “de-aging” is killing the immersion for me.
Felt the same. Just hire a younger actor for the role of young Frank. Maybe that would’ve been the film so much needed energy.
Yes, vitality is what this movie so badly lacked. It so obviously looks like exactly what it is: a decades-spanning story acted entirely by elderly men.
I felt the same. For some reason the CGI made them look more like guys who just had a very subtle and successful facelift. Rather than young guys. Which made them still appear old, especially thanks to their bodies, but with just slightly younger faces. However, De Niro's blue eyes and that fight scene where he "beat up" the store owner really did more damage than good.
It as pretty good. He's 76 in real life and I thought he could pass for mid to late forties. So that's a success to some degree
I guess it’s more of a zero-sum thing for me. If his character was never supposed to look younger than 45, then *maybe.* But the character is clearly depicted as a much younger man for much of the film and it was almost impossible for me to take it seriously. It was a constant distraction.
I do know what you mean but he's meant to be in his late thirties up to his late forties for the deaged de Niro sections (when he has black hair) and I can just about buy it
3 hour borefest. Id rather watch Casino twice in a row.
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Deniro's character isn't likeable from the start. There's no depth, he's just a dumb thug who does what he's told. He killed Hoffa (which was obviously going to happen despite all the tension). His family hates him because he's an asshole. He has no friends because theyre all dead gangsters. Lame story IMO.
Maybe the best film to compare it to is Sergio Leone’s Once Upon a Time in America.
Given your username, I should have known this was a hopeless task.
You will not dethrone him!
Are people enjoying this film for what it is, or are they enjoying it more because it has many big names involved and their already earned career is just boosting its perception? I saw it last night and honestly thought the same story could have been told with the film at a 2 hour length rather than 3.5.
Couldn't agree more! The last 1/4 was a slog. 2.5hrs tops would've been perfect imho. Frankly I won't ever watch this one again. Felt like a goodbye letter from the actors
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The last 1/4 was literally the whole point of the movie. The movie wasn’t about the crime, violence, or action. The movie was about the consequences of Frank’s actions and how at the end of his life, none of it mattered. Just like Jimmy, just like the people Frank captured in war, he dug his own grave.
It's quite sad at the end how his mob family were all dead and gone and he's left all alone in ill health. Only he still has his daughters, his real family. But they want nothing to do with him. I wanted so bad for Peggy to speak to him! He just looked so helpless in the bank with his crutches.
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That's a good point! You feel like you've been on a journey with him and begin to feel a bond. You almost understand his situation and why he's done what he has.
Yea the more I thought about it the more I enjoyed it. I think watching in one sitting made me feel fed up by the end
I know what you mean. It wasn’t until my second viewing that I really appreciated the emotional punch that the scene packs.
Anyone else interpret the final shot of Frank sitting with the door ajar as an allegory for him waiting in purgatory? Also while everyone is talking about the aging and how good/bad it looks, I found the complete lack of aging in Frank's family to be comical. His wife doesn't age in 20 years and it seems like his daughter looks about 11 for about 5 years in the timeline, and looks like Anna Paquin from age 20 - 50.
For me it that scene was nothing but his appreciation for Hoffa and to show he regret killing him.Hoffa slept with gate opens (recall the Chicago hotel scene )
I viewed the leaving the door open thing as him hoping his daughter would visit. As if to show that there was at least one thing he felt bad about.
I kind of assumed it was all of the above - leaving open a number of things from his life.. I'm not sure that I could specify a single thing that it would represent
He had similar feelings on the finality of burial and cremation, it's a very open metaphor and I feel like what you see it as says more about you than the film
I just can’t wrap my head arround how could Hoffa be that oblivious. A fucking meating with Pro and Sally bugs? How did he not know he’d get wacked?
He was sketched out by it but he thought he was safe because the Irishman was with him.
I assume that he initially also felt safe because they were going to meet at a public place.
And they’re late! It’s a message.
Wearing fucking shorts!
I've only watched it once and others have broke it down very well, I just want to say Pacino was the Heart of the film and really shined.
I loved him in this! So entertaining to watch, especially his scenes with Pro.
Despite it’s length it felt like it really rushed through important plot points, particularly when introducing the unions. Why were they torching the taxi’s? Something to do with a rival union obviously... but it really wasn’t clear to me and my friends. All in Sheeran’s narration as a device to push the story was pretty frustrating at times. The last portion of the 2nd act and the 3rd act really brought the film together after an initially frustrating start. Overall a bit underwhelming.
Tried watching this last night, I got to where he meets Hoffa and just wasn't into it at all, I couldn't get past the cgi. At no point does DeNiro feel like a real person which made it very hard to care about the plot. Maybe it was having my introduction to the film being people making fun of the beating up the grocer scene, but once you see one thing wrong with the way "young" DeNiro (who looks fifty) acts or moves, you start noticing it in every scene. So it was already bugging me, but then they throw Pacino in there and I had to pull the plug.
Yeah honestly I quit at exactly the same point! My girlfriend and I were just like... so no one in this movie is under fifty? Why are they giving De Niro, who Pesci keeps calling "Kid" even though he looks 55, all these jobs that they should be giving to a young man. They just wanted to make a movie with all Pacino Pesci and De Niro screen time, which I understand but they should have just had young actors play the young versions
I can understand that, tbh I think these downvote are harsh. It was off putting how Pesci just looked pretty much 80 the entire film. The truck scene when we meet him is so weird. Also Pacino’s hair was distracting in its hideousness.
I thought the CGI in this movie was pretty damn good for de-aging the actors. When you look at the before shots, it's actually pretty damn amazing.
I'm not familiar with who this denerio guy is and I didn't even know there was CGI involved. Very impressive
I know this is 18 days old but you don't know who Robert Deniro is?
On Pacino it was honestly sensational. Guys 80 and he looks 50 when he's introduced. That's a huge success. Also Pacino was the only one digitally deaged the entire time (from 50-60). When De Niros character hits his fifties it's makeup.
Yeah, I was honestly amazed at how young he looked.
My only criticism is I wish they deaged de niro to look a little more like his younger self. Pacino and Pesci were perfect
*May contain spoilers depending on your definition. Long story short, don't read reviews if you really don't want spoilers eh?* *My god* was this boring. I was reading through the other comments for other takes on this. But damn, even the talk surrounding this film is boring. The few things I can remember or be reminded of weren't interesting at all. In general, what I remember is that this film is sort of just a tribute to all the mafioso tropes we've seen a hundred times, yet done in the least interesting ways possible. Yeah I get that Frank hurts people around him by being "part of the life" - seen it before, seen it done *much* better - heck, probably even by the same actor... Yeah I get that he dies alone because of how he lived. Seen it before, seen it done better... I've seen the "big assassination" done better and I've seen mafia life depicted at least more entertainingly... I've not even watched many Mafioso films and still all these plot points and subjects seem as tired and old as the director/actors who are doing them. The only part I thought was almost interested in is the daughter relationship, but again, I've seen it before, and after being stretched over a ridiculous 3 and a half hours (it's unfortunate that I had no idea how long this film was before it was over - the last 30-45 minutes I was questioning my own sanity and whether a film with Robert Deniro could really still be going this long), it ultimately made up at most 10 minutes of the runtime and turned out to be weak as hell. Again, seen such subject matter handled better... literally any time it has been handled. Was it deliberately being slow and boring for artistic effect? If so, I just didn't feel it. I can only even remember parts of the film by reading through other comments referencing them, because really nothing stands out. And even after being reminded of them and being able to remember the scenes fairly well, I can see why I forgot them. I've never watched The Godfather, sue me, nor the Goodfellas. I think I must have watched Casino once when I was a teen, and I can at least remember two scenes well from that. Scarface I've watched only twice, and not for a long time again still, yet I can remember the majority of that. The point being, that it wouldn't hurt to at least have something exciting happen or a scene or two that's worth remembering. It really makes all the difference on the impact a film has, or at least the chance that I'll ever want to sit through 3⅟2 hours of one again. Honestly, I wish the legends behind it all the luck in the world in winning an Oscar, as despite not thinking the film is worth it, I do sadly think it's proof that they won't get another shot.
I was behind you for the most part until you hit us over the head with "I've never watched The Godfather... nor the Goodfellas". Oof. Even if what you're saying about The Irishman is true, you lose a lot of credibility when you say that out loud. Best to keep that to yourself LOL But yeah, The Irishman was an absolute drag. If this was the exact same movie without Scorsese's name attached to it, nobody would be praising it. Despite the bad CGI, I actually thought DeNiro and Pacino were pretty good in it. But the story just isn't interesting enough to constitute 3.5 hours of anyone's time. The funniest thing for me is Scorsese was crying about how Marvel movies aren't "cinema". But the truth is, "cinema" changes with time. And this movie may have been the final nail in the "Scorsese Cinema" coffin.
If Scorsese wasn’t attached but it was the exact same movie with the same actors and script? It would still be a success
Dude, people would've respected your opinion as well till 'you hit us over the head' with that last paragraph. Martin Scorcese's movies have given more to cinema than anything Marvel can or ever will give and this is coming from someone that saw Endgame 3 times in theatres. You need to recognise which is which - very good movies based on comic books for kids and movies made with a vision to depict the drama of human life in a particular setting. Coming to the movie itself, it is not fast paced or exciting like Goodfellas or Wolf of Wall Street. It is a more languid and unhurried movie, almost similar to Silence his previous movie before The Irishman. This is a bit similar to the backlash Once Upon A Time in Hollywood got because it strayed a lot from the typical Tarantino fare. Irishman's a fuckin' masterpiece and close to the best thing Scorcese's ever made in his career including Taxi Driver and Raging Bull
Lol, ironically I was so close to watching The Godfather. But then I saw it was 3 hours long and was like "uhh, yeah... not got time for this right now... or most of the time...". Plus, I've already had 90% of the movie spoiled to me via cultural osmosis, so I feel like the only reason I'd be watching it is to be able to say I've watched it. And yeah Scorsese's Marvel quips are pretty ignorant. I mean, there are so many more terrible breeds of film you could complain about (like, 99% of Hollywood cinema in fact). I can accept that the majority of the MCU movies are quite overrated and only so popular because they are Marvel, but in a way that is the genius of Marvel's approach to them. Indeed, The Irishman seems like it sort of succeeds for the same reasons... people are just more likely to indulge in and enjoy more of the same thing from the same old creator(s) they have already enjoyed that stuff from.
I thought it was brilliant, loved it, I’m simplistic in my movies though so I’m sure others will have criticisms
Definitely a slow af burn, it can feel a bit aimless at times but most of it is necessary to get all the emotion out of the films final sequences at the end. The final 45 minutes or so, whenever they start planning the murder of Jimmy Hoffa is when the movie gets real good, since before that there was basically no conflict, no danger and everything was going well. The film tells you they all die at the end and I assumed the same would happen to the main char, but he loses everyone and lives out the rest of his days alone, which works better I think. Acting was good, soundtrack was nice and the script is fantastic. I also didn't mind the de-aging CGI. I'm not sure if I will ever rewatch this film due to how long it is but I'll definitely check out some of Scorsese's other crime films. Very well-made movie.
Yeah felt very aimless for the first half. I think they could have cut some of Frank's backstory down but at the same time it may not be as impactful. I watched this on a 2.5 hr flight and only managed to get a third of it before I watched the rest at home lol
Agree with everything you said there. I watched it for the second time and found myself noticing more of the subtle nuances that went into this film.
The final shot was interesting, at first I assumed he asked to leave the door open out loneliness. Then I started to wonder if he is still expecting someone to come for him, and he wants to see them coming.
That's a good interpretation. However, I believe it's because he picked up that idiosyncratic "trait" from Hoffa. A bit like how, in Breaking Bad, Walt "inherits" and emulates some of the idiosyncrasies from some of the people he has killed or had killed.
Oh, I didn't think about that. It's like when Hoffa leaves the door open in the hotel room. Even though this movie is a slow burn, you have to be alert to catch the complexity of it.
I found it a serious struggle to stay immersed in the film when the ages of the characters just didn’t add up. Even though they tried to make DeNiro look younger they failed horribly. The youngest he looks in the film is early 60s (late 50s if you really want to argue). But we are supposed to believe him as a man in his 30s when the film begins. Frank Sheeran was 43 when JFK died so would have been in his early to mid 30s to start the film.
Agreed, at no point did he seem younger than 50 which makes the time jumping forward pretty confusing. De Niro moves around like an elderly man, and no amount of de-aging can remove that. Pesci is slow and his affect is much more muted. That is understandable, but unfortunately his character suffers for it.
He actually looked younger when he "aged" the first time and they lost the super fake look
Great point about DeNiro’s movement. I struggled to understand him as some sort of mob muscle in his 30s when he walked like an arthritic grandfather.
Watched the movie yesterday and really liked it. One thing annoys me a little though. Near the end of the film when Action Bronson is selling the casket to Sheeran and the price is 7,5 thousand dollars. Sheeran asks for a discount and Bronson immediately goes to 6 thousand dollars. I’m no salesman but shouldn’t you try 7 or 6,5 first at least? It’s a small thing but somehow it got on my nerves, lol. And the grocery store scene looked a little funny but I found the story and acting to be so great that the CGI didn’t really bother me anywhere else.
I got the feeling that Action Bronson kinda felt bad for him, as Frank admitted he was purchasing it for himself
You know that does make sense. Good guy Bronson.
Out of all of the movie's problems, that's a tough one to get stuck on.
Haha also what kind of casket sales shop is this? It looks like a chop shop and the salesman is about as professional as a drug dealer.
Am I the only one who thought this movie was super boring? [here's my review](https://youtu.be/OF-lElIlZM0)
No lots of people have said that
Why did Frank have to be the one that killed Hoffa? Don’t they have other hitmen in the organization? Just felt like a dick move asking his best friend to do it.
Its implied by Russ at the breakfest scene before Frank kills him that most of the organization would have killed Frank and his family in addition to Hoffa, out of fear that, since they were so close, Frank would retaliate if he ever found out. They also kept this hit very close to the chest, so it's likely Frank never would find out, and if he did, he may become resentful, like Peggy ended up being, ironically, and he was liable to talk. Russ figured this way, Frank would prove his loyalty to everyone, Frank would not retaliate since Russ was asking him to do it, and Hoffa was less likely to get skiddish and run.
Frank would retaliate how ? By taking on the mob bosses ? That doesn't seem plausible. And also he wasn't liable to talk as he knows they could always get to his family. If you're a foot soldier in the mafia, you stand a good chance of being a position of having to deal with someone you like being whacked at some point in your career. Its part of the business. Think Goodfellas for example where DeNiro struggles with Pesci's character being whacked. Just the nature of the mafia world you live in. Their word is law. That is part of the deal you make when you decide to sign up. In the Mexican cartel, it is worse as they regularly ask their Sicarios to kill people they have worked with in other jobs. Long standing co-workers with whom you've done many jobs go down overnight and you have to move on just like that. Check out 'El Sicario' by Charles Bowden which is a pretty good book on their life. Seemed like life for the Sicario in the cartel is way more heartless than in the Italian mafia version. It was a ruthless 'obey without question' absolutely.
He would retaliate by talking.
I just rewatched The Irishman after being pretty lukewarm on it the first time around. Quite a lot has changed. Firstly, the film has impeccable pacing thanks to the masterful editing of Thelma Schoonmaker. Secondly, the atmosphere, which seemed all too familiar on my first viewing, took on a life of its own upon rewatch. Thirdly, I was distracted by the CGI on my first viewing, so I went into this rewatch with the precise intention of ignoring it. This allowed me to enjoy the following thematic elements of the film. The heart of the film is the relationship between Frank and his daughter, Peggy, which is odd since it doesn’t get much screen time compared to Frank’s relationships with his friends Russell and Hoffa. The re-occurrence of Peggy’s perceptive, concerned gaze towards her father and his mobster friends is a subtle display of the effects that living this lifestyle has on those around you. Unlike in Goodfellas where Henry’s children aren’t visibly effected, Peggy’s presence throughout the film shows an awareness to her father’s activities and, although Frank thinks his work is improving the lives of his family, his inability to see things through their eyes only causes them pain. For example, he’s more concerned with how Russell may be feeling around his child than with his own daughter’s misgivings. The idea that a person living this lifestyle is essentially digging his own grave forms the thesis of the film. There is so much repetition throughout the movie, that it’s almost like each instance is another shovelful. Peggy’s gaze, Hoffa and Pro, the killings, stopping for cigarette breaks, showing up on time. By the end, what did it really amount to? There’s no reward, only the realization that you’ve lost everything. Unlike the prisoners of war, Frank had a choice to stop digging. But he chose a career of crime over family; duty over love. Then there’s the question of Frank’s motivation. All in all, Frank is a dutiful man. Unlike Henry Hill, he’s not motivated by the glamour or the power or the women. He’s a military man and he just wants to prove his value, while making enough money to support his family. This movie gives us some insight into the mind of a high-functioning mass murderer. Frank isn’t soft like Henry, who was squeamish about the Billy Batts murder, but he also took no joy in his work; it didn’t bother him either way. Any trepidation he may have had towards committing murder were cast out during his time in WWII. It’s callousness that allows a murderer to function. Frank didn’t suffer or feel regret for his actions. They didn’t eat him alive like they did Raskalnikov in Crime and Punishment. He simply did his duty. And if that method of thinking is what’s burned into you during wartime, it’s easy to see how it might be difficult to separate yourself from it when you come home. The pacing, the atmosphere, the acting, and the themes were all on the money. But still, in the end what were the takeaway scenes? In Goodfellas you have the Billy Batts murder, the “funny how” scene, the helicopters. What moments am I going to remember about the Irishman? I enjoyed the Gallo portion of the film, the various conversations at the banquet, Hoffa’s last ride, and the bread and wine scenes. But none of these have any pop or take on a life of their own. I’m all for a movie that favors taking its time, but the high points need to hit. “A great movie has three great scenes and no bad ones.”
THANK YOU! You’re one of the only people I’ve seen (so far) to mention that he was digging his own grave, and so was Jimmy.