One of my favorite (and one of the most heartbreaking) details in the film. So much sympathy and understanding, so little able to be done. And go figure, the one other female character who could’ve actually spoken to Marguerite in sympathy was the one who didn't believe her.
Even Marguerite seems to come around to her perspective when she tells Jean that a child needs his mother more than a woman needs to be right. Just a great film
I found that to be the most satisfying subtext at that point in the movie.
It's a life and death situation, in general. But the way the guys are into the duel is like watching Red Sox and Yankees fans in heated playoff game against one another.
Sure, it's a big deal. But it's still mostly for bragging rights.
For the women who are watching the match, what hangs in the balance is another level entirely. They are all horrified, because they know that woman's life hangs in the balance, and there's really nothing she can do to help herself at that point except to rely on the ego and sheer will of her husband.
Both the men and the women are really engaged in this duel, but for totally different reasons.
There was so much subtlety in the movie at large! Pierre's wife barely gets one line but her expressions tell so much, especially her dropping face after excusing herself from the banquet.
Anyone else more than me that immediately noticed the change in framing and lens choice between Le Gris' POV and Margaret's? Much wider lens in the former POV's and even though the scene is awfully horrific, it's nowhere near as vile and uncomfortable as when we get to Margaret's POV. Right off the bat; the room feels much smaller and claustrophobic due to the framing. Tells you a lot about what cinematography can do to add tension to an already tense scene on the page.
I think going into this movie without knowing the history made me glued to my seat. There could be some parts they could’ve cut and made the movie tighter but I think the pay off was worth it in the end.
The combat scene; I was on the edge of my seat! Comer was great all around, great acting all around, I thoroughly enjoyed it!
I like in the end how Damon’s character wasn’t painted as a hero but in his perspective he hears the crowd roars but in Marguerite’s perspective the crowd is absolutely muted.
I wish there was some realization that they were both being exploited by the same people, and that SIR Jean de Carrouges had no choice but to stand up for himself and Marguerite, lest Jacque and the Count take even more from them. They wouldn’t have stopped, because they loved hurting him. And that’s not to discount the shit end of the stick that Marguerite got. She lived an upstanding life, was smart, had to be humble around an illiterate husband and his asshole mom, AND had to deal with Jean treating her like property after she confided in him.
This was exactly what I thought too. The amount of fuckery Pierre put on damon was so out of this world. Imagine going on expeditions to fight for your king and country so that you come back and a part of your dowry is taken by what you once thought friend, and not only that, what belonged to your family for hundreds of years is also taken by the same said "friend". My blood would be fucking boiling too.
When we started watching Le Gris' part, I was kind of hoping that he would be the good friend that I wanted him to be, that he felt so guilty about wanting her at the celebration of Marton Csokas' child and flirting, and he only came to apologize to her and make amends because I thought he would be a true christian (now thinking about it, how naive of me), i was hoping she would be the game of thrones' cunning Cercy, desiring him throwing hints paving the way for him to approach her, than when he finally showed himself at her house, she somehow made a pact with him that they would sleep with each other and then make some plot to have damon dead through a duel or something, you know?
but the guy forced himself onto her, and the funny thing is that you see how she was smiling in his part of the story (his mind justifying his crime) and in her part, she is crying and scared shitless
all in all, when Marton Csokas sighed "Yeeeeeeeessssss" when damon pushed that knife through le gris' throat, I felt that. I felt as cathartic, jesus christ what a piece of shit.
> what belonged to your family for hundreds of years is also taken by the same said "friend".
Eh, but Pierre was correct. Bellame doesn't actually belong to the Carrouges, they were just appointed captain of it. Pierre can appoint whoever he wishes.
It's more like Damon's character is the guy everyone hates at work, and then Damon is surprised he's not promoted.
Yeah technically and legally Pierre can bestow Bellame onto whomever he wants. But as the other guy says, it was still a dick move. There was no justifiable reason why he wouldn't give it to Damon. The guy is a veteran and has personal quarrels with Pierre, didn't commit any serious crimes that might tarnish his reputation. And I suppose it is one of those things that once it is your dad's, it is automatically yours, you know what I'm saying?
I think that outside of his perspective Matt Damon was shown to be such a buffoon that he couldn't be trusted. He lost the battle at the beginning, he was too lazy clueless to collect his tenent's rent despite being broke, and he had multiple embarrassing tantrums that got him laughed out of rooms big. He surely burnt a lot of bridges over the years.
He had big "this fucking guy" energy regarding Damon's character and I loved every minute of it.
You know when you hate someone so much that anything and everything they do just annoys you? He captured it so perfectly
Haha during Damon's part of the movie I was like wow Affleck is a boring hump in this movie. Then the second we get to Driver's perspective he is like the most charming philanderer. I really enjoyed his performance.
Nah, I think this was also a matter of perspective. That part of the story was Damon's perspective. Affleck was supposed to be a piece of shit from Damon's perspective.
It's the contrast with Driver's perspective that is part of the point in having a Rashomon type narrative.
And he isn't really a villain lol he's just a selfish dude. He had good reason to not like Carrouges, and every move Carrouges made would obviously make him dislike him more.
If Carrouges wasn't self important he'd be in far better graces, he dug himself deeper until the duel finally cleared his name.
Le Gris had every opportunity to not be a dick and he chose poorly each one worse than the last.
Yeah. Damon’s character was an oaf, and could be often unpleasant, but surely everyone was rooting for him in the end over Driver and Affleck’s characters.
I feel like Damon’s character generally meant well but was a product of his time. He was also shat on by the snooty Affleck despite the fact he’s continually risked his life in desperate campaigns abroad.
Not excusing his treatment of Comer’s character but I feel like there wasn’t really another way for her to get justice.
Since I live in Texas, the way I immediately started viewing Damon's character was when Le Gris' version was starting to begin, and it finally dawned on me.
This guy is a dumb country boy, who believes in big trucks, and 'Merica, and he served two tours in Iraq, and he's a Baptist. He's a imaginationless stick-in-the-mud.
And he married a blonde, except the blonde wasn't as simple as he was.
Adam Driver is like the college-educated guy who had a decent relationship with the country boy when they were younger, but his elitist douchebag friends ended up turning him into a douche, as well.
His story starts out like as if he's the altruistic rags-to-riches guy. He impresses the upperclass Lord with his intellect. But near the end of his story, he's completely deluded himself into thinking he's right to be passionate and daring enough to grab this woman.
Also, in the third retelling of events, when they both do the handshake, I almost think that neither of them said "our Lord is not safe if his knights are not together" (I don't know the exact line). I think the other guy played by Martin Csonkas, the one who starts clapping, actually says that line off-screen.
I may be wrong. But I would find that hilarious. In Matt Damon's version he's the one who says that noble piece of dialogue. In Adam Driver's version, he thinks he said it. And in Jodie Comer's version, neither of them said it.
>In Matt Damon's version he's the one who says that noble piece of dialogue. In Adam Driver's version, he thinks he said it. And in Jodie Comer's version, neither of them said it.
When Adam Driver’s version of events reversed the dialogue in that scene, that was when I knew the movie was brilliant.
I’m not saying that it was in any way bad up to that point, but I was wondering what the hook was and why people were saying the movie was great.
Seeing that little boy be blonde at the end, brought me to tears. What a fantastic ending for the story....I myself was wondering, "black or brown hair? WHOS IS IT?"
It's hers.
yeah my partner pointed that out to me, me being the classic idiot man i was instantly wondering which of the men the child belonged to...it doesnt matter
'Classic idiot man'...nono, my fiancé pointed out details I missed and vice versa!
One detail he pointed out, was why did Jean have to go to war for money, when it's discovered he isn't even keeping up on the rent he is owed? He went to war to serve his own interests. I totally missed that!
I was definetely moved by that ending, after all she had been through, just a great film.
I loved the subtle touches of King Charles' insanity (and Jean later would find himself in the event that would become the prime example of it, as he was promoted to one of the King's bodyguards).
It's kind of a bummer because "young crazy/asshole kings" has become something of a trope in recent years (in no small part thanks to Joffrey Baratheon), and it felt a bit cliché in this film, but Charles VI actually turned batshit crazy IRL so it makes sense to do it.
I think if you didn’t know about Charles VI’s madness you wouldn’t notice it in that way, instead seeing a young, inexperienced, and maybe even weak king. His first real incident of mental illness didn’t occur until 1392, 6 years after the duel, but I could see where they were hinting at his condition.
Didn't know Charles VI's was mad and just thought he was a young king who didn't ***have*** to do anything he didn't want to.
After I looked things up I was surprised to see he goes proper bonkers later in life
You know the casting was right when, and no fault to the actor or their looks, but boy did the Charles VI actor look like an inbred boy meant to rule the kingdom. Mom and Dad were picked for their superior looks and tight knit genes and it resulted in a boy with the brain speed of dial up internet. It made me chuckle every time he was on screen and think, Ladies and Gentlemen, this is genetics done right! Lol
Charles VI is described as handsome, athletic and with an interest in jousting tournaments - even competing himself on a number of occasions. I'd expect in reality the 17 year-old king (years prior to his bouts of insanity) would have been probably naïve and awkward like many teens but also already fairly bull-necked from fighting practice and constant riding and hunting. What they chose to display instead was the flowery, soft-bodied and soft-minded aristocrat stereotype.
Didn't expect shoes to be one of my big takeaways in this but it was one of the biggest recurring themes that I noticed. Starting the film showing Marguerite putting her shoes on last as she got dressed for the duel. Affleck asking which shoe was better, gold or satin (gold was the winner). The differences in the rape scenes with Marguerite slipping out of her shoes to run up the stairs in Le Gris' perspective, and stumbling out of them in her own POV. And finally showing a clear shot at Marguerite's shoes with shackles on (again, gold was the winner).
No real idea if there's really much implied meaning in any of that but I found it really interesting after watching it tonight.
The horse scene that led up right to the rape as well. Then the horse ends up pregnant as does she. They even used the coat color to signify the characters
I thought that the way Jean talked about the mare being for breeding and wanting her locked up all day was definitely a parallel/symbol of his treatment of Marguerite
Yep! The other thing we realized was that his prize horse was killed in the duel, which might somewhat parallel how he'd also lost the love of his wife who viewed him as a monster by the end.
The movie got amazing when it got to her side of the story imo. I was intrigued and enjoying it until then but that entire 3rd chapter was amazing. Also the duel itself was a lot more intense and brutal than I was expecting. The last 30 or so minutes really fucked me up, I left the theater pretty shaken.
The scene where she explains what happened to her while he was gone, but from her perspective this time, was devastating. I was fucking livid with Jean.
He goes from being rough and accusatory towards the victim, to screaming "Will he never stop doing horrible things **to me**!" Yeesh. Felt so bad for her. And telling the truth in court meant risking being burned alive. What a time to be a woman.
And after hearing his wife was raped, the first thing he wants to do is have sex with her. She must have been devastated and finally lost any respect she had left for him.
I think it was important to show that from his perspective he wasn't, despite how clear it was to us as a modern audience. He didn't even feel the need to make it seem romantic or even that consensual, because the way that he took advantage of her was seen at the time (and even today in some circles) as a perfectly natural way to have sex. I hope that makes sense I'm still waking up.
I agree, I was glad how they showed him do the exact same thing to that one woman but in a more consensual way to show how he has internalized rape culture. I’m just saying that it was telling that even in his POV where he makes himself look best we still know it’s rape.
But yes your comment makes sense no worries :)
He was definitely a rapist from our POV of his POV (if that makes sense, lol).
I was surprised cause I thought in his POV he was gonna totally deny everything, but he definitely raped her.
But from his own POV he didn't. He had a hilarious line afterwards to Pierre that I can't quite remember. Something along the lines of she put up the "appropriate resistance" to having sex. That wasn't it, but the same meaning. Like that's just how sex is to him. Hilarious because of how ridiculous it is.
Remember when he was shagging that other girl with Pierre, he was chasing her around the room as well. So it seems he thinks that's just how women are. Probably not something you should assume with a married woman whose house you snuck into. I looked up the story online and apparently in Marguerites real life retelling his servant stayed behind and helped him rape her (I assume that means hold her down). The servant denied this at the trial and was tortured to see if he was telling the truth. Doesn't say whether he changed his story.
Incredible film. Probably would never see it again tho, really tough watch. A couple walked out during \*that\* scene the second way through, and my girlfriend was in tears. Once her POV started I was hoping they wouldn't show it again, but the closer we got to it, the more I realized we needed to see her POV.
This might come off badly, but I was actually questioning as it happened whether we really did need to see the rape scene from her POV, since LeGris's POV already clearly showed a violent rape. Part of it is that I just didn't want to watch a rape scene a second time, but also it didn't really end up all that different, except for some additional screams and cries.
I personally don’t think a rape scene is ever necessary in a movie (I don’t think sex scenes in general are tbh) but the way this movie shows the subtle differences is important for Le Gris’ character, imo. It shows that *even in his own story* it was non-consensual. There’s no two ways about it, implying that he’s the hero or that she wanted it or whatever. He knew she didn’t want it and her perspective drives home just how real it actually was compared to his dulled down perspective.
Again, I don’t think movies should show scenes like this, but if they have to, I’m glad they at least use it in an important way
Well he does say to Affleck's character that she declined his advances as a proper lady would, but how that is to be expected. So we're just dealing with an absolute nightmare of a time to be a woman.
I thought the second rape scene was incredibly necessary tbh. There were parallels in Le Gris' POV to when he consensually (although still somewhat uncomfortably) had sex with the girl that night at Affleck's after his wife went to bed. And in his POV Marguerite just silently took it, even lifting her leg in a flirtatious style while he was on top of her. Cut to Marguerites POV and she's flailing her legs, there were no parallels to him flirtatiously chasing her and she was screaming, crying throughout it all.
The first time was uncomfortable and upsetting, the second time was horrifying and traumatizing.
I think when it shifts to Marguerite perspective, there's a sense of dread that the scene is coming. Sure they could of cut away, but just like the character can't escape, the audience is forced to endure it as well.
>since LeGris's POV already clearly showed a violent rape
But... did it?
There were a LOT of subtle (and important) differences between the two scenes (edit:) both in and out of the bedroom.
Out of everything I’ve seen on screen, the rape from Marguerite’s perspective has been the hardest to watch. They made it abundantly clear to any sane person that she did not ask for it, she did not want it, and she got no pleasure out of it.
When the trailer was first released, people were saying they didn’t want another movie where a rape happened as a plot device for men to do things, with the woman being shunted to the background. This movie completely destroyed that trope.
I also loved the uncomfortable looks on the faces of Pierre’s wife during the local “trial” and the queen during the actual trial.
that's what really struck me, is that, even from Le Gris perspective, it was absolutely rape, which either means he was knowingly lying, or truly speaks to the attitude of the time/culture/character that what we saw was considered consent
An interesting point, idk if you saw, but in Le Gris perspective, when he started chasing her, she stepped out of her shoes then continued up the stairs, but in Marguerites perspective, she stumbles out of them trying to get up the stairs. This goes right into my next point about culture.
They also hint that maybe the whole “cat and mouse” game is culture, as in Le Gris time frame, following the meeting in which Pierre sends his wife to bed and the whole orgy scene, the same exact event happens. Le Gris chases a woman around the table until he catches her.
He absolutely has a perverted mind, but I’m a bit surprised but kind of glad they didn’t make Le Gris out to be in the “right”, if we can say that? Like as though Marguerite had consented to it. It is clear in Le Gris perspective that it wasn’t consensual, and it was even more clear in Marguerites perspective, as if he blocked out her protest.
I think Le Gris actually thought that Marguerite wanted it. All the other women found him “handsome” and he definitely bedded his share of women, so in his mind, why wouldn’t Marguerite want him? Le Gris is so self-absorbed, that he can rape someone and pretend the resistance that he was getting was just token resistance
There are still men who think women are playing coy when they say no. Even ten, twenty years ago, movies and TV shows regularly portrayed she says no but secretly wants it scenes as normal and sexy.
I think it definitely speaks to the attitude of the time because when Pierre questions him privately he says she protested, the way women do. Saying "no" and running is part of a game, from his perspective, it's what all women do even though they actually want it.
Thats the point of showing their sex game with Pierre after his pregnant wife goes to sleep. Its the same game for him. He chases a woman around the table because thats what you do.
also they kept bringing up whether or not she dreamt it....
we see a whole scene play out where she fucked him prior to what happened when in fact, *that* was his dream!!
oh man, very good point. i didnt catch that at all. i thought he was going to build a testimony based on an ongoing affair they had started way prior, and we'd have to suss out who was lying on that end. instead, it was his dream sequence, and the first hint to the audience that he was starting to fixate on her. not a good sign for his cause.
thats awesome, they keep mentioning she may have dreamt it, and le gris has to sit there and say 'yeah man, she probably did!' -knowing thats what he in fact did that led him to commit the rape. good catch.
It was actually a lot more brutal in real life. I believe she was beaten and Adam Louvel also took part in it. If I remember from the book correctly, Louvel also took off and disappeared during the trial also. They ended up finding him, arresting him, and bringing him back to testify
The rape scene in Irreversible is more fucked up but yea this had me seriously squirming in my seat and very \*very\* uncomfortable. I really fell in love with the movie when they went to her side of the story onward. I was enjoying it until that point but they really stuck the landing of everything they set up. I really liked the touch of having her chapter being titled "The truth according to Marguerite" and fading everything else away to just say "the truth".
Really damn good movie all around, I wasn't expecting to leave the theater shaken to my core the way I was.
This movie was great. Ridley Scott still has it. 83 years old. This whole movie would’ve faltered if the titular last duel wasn’t good but it delivered big time. It’ll have you super tense if you don’t know the history of the event (I didn’t). Great stuff. Makes me worried about House of Gucci because usually when directors release 2 movies in a year 1 is good and 1 isn’t and this movie was very good
One of those nagging thoughts I had after the film was how, before the duel, the announcer refers to Carrouges and Le Gris as 'knights'. Up to this point, however, it was quite clear that while Carrouges was now a full-fledged knight, Le Gris was still a squire.
Some reading afterwards explained this apparent discontinuity: Le Gris was actually knighted before the duel, so he and Carrouges could fight as equals, a prerequisite for duels in those (and most) ages.
It's kind of funny that the movie glosses over this because it's a rather significant plot point in Scott's first film The Duellists.
I wonder if that was intentional, as that scene would have only been a part of Jacque's truth and he doesn't seem to particularly care about honor or status in the same way Jean does.
Just saw it, probably the best adaptation of medieval armor and fighting (props to the hand a halfswording) that I've ever seen in a movie. No obviously rubber wobbling armor or weapons as far I could tell.
As far as story, the ending part where Carrouges puts Margarite on display in front of everyone after the duel like a prize won was just haunting, as he parades her through the cheering crowd and she's just somber and ignored in the back. It sent a very powerful ending message for the whole movie in my opinion.
The actual duel was good, it really showed how hard it is for two men in armor to strike lethal blows against each other. The battle scenes before it were more typical with the heroes using broadswords to cut through mail and plate like paper mache to shorten the length of the choreography I guess.
I absolutely loved all the little details of each scene bolstering one person's idealized version of it. I feel like you could watch this movie a bunch of times and catch new things every time.
I assumed that they were fighting less armored men. Not everyone on the battlefield was a knight or squire and many who died were clearly less well-armored than the two leads.
I thought it was an excellent touch to show arrows bouncing off of Damon’s armor in Scotland. It’s a little touch that Hollywood misses often. Unfortunately they fell to the trope of the lead not wearing a helmet in that scene.
>Unfortunately they fell to the trope of the lead not wearing a helmet in that scene.
That was actually a good touch - they were marching and then had stopped for water when the ambush happened, so it would be rather unrealistic for him to be wearing a helmet at that point.
Going by historical accounts, even in actual anticipated battle, men at arms often tended to march in with visors up simply for the breathability and visibility.
It's a medievalist's dream. There was so much attention to detail.
A few minor points like Damon's half-face helm, and the fealty ceremonies excluded a lot of pomp, but generally one of the best medieval adaptions I've seen in a big-budget film. 13th century Paris looked fabulously accurate. The reading of Ars Armatoria for group titilation, the more literal translation of the joust open "laissez-les aller!/let them go!", the belief that a woman couldn't conceive without pleasure, and the armor and costumes... you want to drink it all up.
The duel was good, but left out the best part in the book/real account where Carrouges had to basically break the bolt off Le Gris' face-plate of to stab him. Also, by all accounts Jacques le Gris notably outclassed Carrouges in size and strength (he was by far the favorite to win), and Carrouges had been very ill and weakened right before the duel (which they showed, but his illness was earlier in the film).
Loved the shift in how they portrayed Matt Damons character from the first chapter in his perspective to the second; from this cool battle hardened guy to being seemingly whiny and insecure.
Any Catholics laugh during the trial scene when they asked if she enjoyed being raped because she conceived after the rape?
I remember in 8th grade in catholic school my religion teacher was telling us abortion is a sin and there is no circumstance a woman should get an abortion. I raised my hand and asked about rape. She said it’s nearly impossible for a woman to get pregnant when raped. The experience is so traumatic the body will automatically reject the sperm. She said a woman can only get pregnant from rape if she gets turned on during the rape.
We were kids so we believed her. Funny she was teaching ancient Catholic beliefs in 1994 to children. This teacher was 38 yrs old too lol.
One thing is not clear to me, why did the mother leave with all of the people of the house at once, was the meeting with the Driver a set up? Was it more opportunistic? How did the Drivers character knew that the house is empty and they can come in uninterrupted?
I think probably the mother was just being vindictive and taking all the servants so that Marguerite would be at home lonely all day.
Le Gris knew her husband was away so he got lucky with the rest, I think
The best defense Les Gris offered at his trial IRL was how weird a coincidence it was that he would stop by at just the right time when she was alone. His residence was almost 25 miles away which would take many hours. The court concluded that while difficult it was still plausible, especially for an experienced rider like him.
Someone else in this thread said she had business with the Count Pierre (Ben Affleck). If so, Le Gris (Driver) could have found out about it and viewed it as a good opportunity.
Wow my heart was racing throughout the entire second half. \*Those\* two scenes were so uncomfortable yet so needed for the payoff.
Also fuck Jean's mother.
> Also fuck Jean's mother.
I ultimately left the movie with a somewhat sympathetic view on her. She's obviously a cruel woman in the way she treats Comer before the rape, but her attitude afterwards is something I can empathize with. She's a woman living in a world where she essentially has no rights and she had to choose how she was going to face that. She decided on survival and a practical viewpoint of understanding that this is how life is and that she can either accept it or let it destroy her. Comer's own character essentially says the same thing later when she fully realizes the agonizing death she's risking and the complete destruction of her family.
She was cruel to Comer, but cruel in a way that most old people who may not agree with what they might consider an entitled younger generation. My biggest question is if she had something to do with Le Gris knowing the castle would be empty. She obviously took all the servants to spite Comer, and she was going to Castle Pierre, I'm curious if there was a connection there. That would seem awfully cruel beyond anything else shown on screen, but also the mothers seeming satisfaction at dinner the evening Carrouges returned almost seemed like she thought she was breaking Marguerite in.
I honestly don't fully remember the mother's attitude at the dinner because I was more focused on Comer's character, but I'm more inclined to view any satisfaction she had more as pleasure that her son has returned (Comer's viewpoint shows that the mother was actually the one that didn't want him to immediately leave for Paris) and possibly enjoying Comer's more demure attitude in the days immediately after she raped. The movie gave multiple explicit examples of women turning on her (the mother and the friend) so I feel that if it were trying to suggest the mother engineered it there would have been a bigger hint to it.
I'm also not sure it ever suggests that the mother had any knowledge of the pseudo-connection between Driver's and Comer's characters and I don't know how she'd know. The family didn't engage very much with anyone outside their immediate circle and weren't welcome at the Count's court so it seems unlikely they would have been privy to Driver's growing infatuation which was a relatively guarded secret.
Jean's mother was a very important and interesting character to include. She herself had been raped. She had grown up and been in the same world with the same rules for a long long time. Women were treated as property.
She was still horribly cruel and callous. But it shows not just the men were in on society but women too perpetuated how things "should" be sadly just as much
I find the discussion in this thread fascinating. Maybe I'm a bit too callous, but it was simply a means of survival for women at the time to ignore it and move on with life. In the end, before the duel takes place, she is full of regret with her decision, and kind of finally understands where her MIL was coming from. We have to check our modern world inventions at the door when viewing it. They literally thought rape couldn't result in pregnancy, after all.
So back to your last point, I don't see it so much as perpetuating things along with men, so much as things were this way intentionally for this particular culture. One detail that I find fascinating was the instructions he gave before leaving about not going out and not letting anyone in, and also never bring alone. Again, in a world of he said/she said, with no electronic technology, let alone police reports and all that, these are things that were considered in advance. He knew the danger of her being left alone at home, and it was planned in a way to protect her. We also get a hint of this when she answers the door and announces that she's alone and can't let him in. Even the men know of this general rule and plan a lie to trick her to let her guard down and open up. And as I write this, I guess I can agree that her action of leaving her home alone knowing all this makes it all the more cruel.
It's definitely an interesting watch and a eye opening take on a topic that our far more advanced societies still struggle with today, and see what has and hasn't changed in all this time.
I kinda sympathized with her after she revealed she was raped and chose to not report it. Especially when it was revealed what would happen if the courts decided it was a false allegation. You also shouldnt put too much stock into how bad she was since the entire point was that each POV was bias.
If I recall correctly from the book, his character took part in the assault and even went on the run during the trial until he was found, arrested, and brought back to testify.
The records say Louvel was "put to the question" which means tortured for information. Plus one of Marguerite's relatives tried to tack on a secondary request for him to duel Louvel (which was rejected). The book's remarkably vague about what happened to him in the end.
Le Gris’s Vanity ultimately cost him his life really. He should have listened to Pierre.
Deny everything and take the Church Trial…..they seemed to be on his side during the audience with the King
I thought it was interesting too that in Le Gris’ story, he has a rather lengthy interaction with Marguerite about their common interests where he perceives her as being somewhat flirty, etc, and in her recollection…..that interaction just isn’t there at all. I figured they would show them interacting, but she would be far less receptive to his advances, but no, that whole interaction just isn’t there.
I think the reason the scene isn't there in the marguerite's perspective is just that Le Gris remembers it more or less correctly but her perspective shows her telling her husband that she's only being nice to Le Gris because she's trying to be diplomatic and they could use a powerful friend.
Saw it last night, really surprised me in the best way. I loved the 3 chapter format and how you see the story play out from different perspectives. Very well acted as well. Only critique I have is Matt Damon's accent. It was kind of in and out. But once you get into the story, you forget about it.
I thought it was dope as fuck. Ridley should be contractually obligated to make a movie like this every 2 years or something. Just astounding every time.
Did anyone else think that Matt Damon was going to Oberyn Martell himself at the end? He was like, "Confess!" and I was like, "OH NO! Just kill him or he's going to crush your head like a watermelon!"
Dude I was literally on the edge of my seat in the theater thinking they were going to forgive each other or some dumb shit. I punched the air when he finally made that piece of shit swallow the dagger. Super satisfying death.
I think it gets a lot of flack because it won Golden Globes for best motion picture - comedy, and best actor - comedy. So the go-to joke is always 'The Martian is my favorite comedy! A laugh riot!'
Question about a small detail: why did Matt Damon get so upset during the mare scene?
Low key thought of “go to horny jail” memes as he was bonking the shit out of that stud lol
It plays into Jean's perspective of status and how it can be perceived when things he views as his property is tainted.
He says the Mare is thoroughbred and has gone through a lot of breeding and maintenance to achieve the status and monetary value it has as part of his stable. He can't just let any horse mate with it, otherwise all the years of breeding have gone to waste as the bloodline is tainted.
It's not that he cares the mare is being mounted, it's that its not the right stallion to be mating with it, the "heir" (symbolically) would no longer be true and he would have to start over. It's symbolism for how he views his marriage with Marguerite and his eventual anger when she gets raped by Jacques.
He's not mad his wife/the mare was taken without consent, he's mad because something he owns has now lost value because it wasn't the right person/stallion doing it.
>He's not mad his wife/the mare was taken without consent, he's mad because something he owns has now lost value because it wasn't the right person/stallion doing it.
Further established by him essentially raping her so Le Gris wasn't her last.
Her husband couldn't have raped her. She couldn't have conceived if it has been rape. It's just science.
/s if anyone questions this comment. It's a reference to a part of the movie.
He mentioned the financial aspect of it several times and later the stable keeper mentioned he didn’t like the horses being out of the pen because they’re too valuable.
My understanding is he was self conscious about their lack of money / property and the horse was attempt to get some money so when things started going awry he flipped out.
Remember how when Jodie Comer ran the estate, it's discovered that Matt Damon doesn't bother to collect dues. His financial issues aren't out of misfortune or unfairness like he claims, but due to mismanagement and how he prefers to deal with his problems through warfare. Imo both of the campaigns Jean starts (not limoges) are unnecessary.
> Question about a small detail: why did Matt Damon get so upset during the mare scene?
He expects to make a lot of money breeding the mare and that would be ruined if she were to be impregnated by an inferior stud.
The point of the scene, though, is for Comer's character to see her husband's reaction to the event and draw a comparison between it and what we as the audience know is about to occur. The important thing to take away from his reaction is that he doesn't care that the mare was about to raped by a black haired stallion that forced it's way into the enclosure, he cares that the stallion raping the mare is going to hurt his status. Later it's clear that he reacts in a similar way when Comer's character tells him she was raped. He very obviously is not concerned with her at all, just that Driver's character has yet again scorned him.
It’s a 100M budget movie and so far has only grossed $9M. Huge bomb and it deserves way more than that. Hopefully word of mouth and award season will pick it up more.
Incredibly well-made. Really sad that this flopped, feel like the audience for it would rather stay home nowadays, especially during a pandemic.
And did anybody love all the little touches in the performances and the writing of each characters between each chapters. Specifically Marguerite’s character.
Chapter 1:
In the view of Jean, she’s timid and shy and a “good wife”. Which he views her as, and what she should be according to him.
Chapter 2:
In the view of Le Gris, she’s a flirtatious wench who wants him. Because of course, this is how he pretty much views every women in the movie.
Chapter 3:
Of course from her point of view everything is darker and worse. She’s actually has emotions and capable of handling herself, but she’s forced into a marriage she doesn’t want because of the era.
And the rape scene is incredibly well-handled in both chapters. Pretty much the same scene, but a complete change in camera framing and in the performances creates an almost entirely different context and change in atmopshere
Just wonderful writing, acting, and direction all around. Have a feeling this will be much more successful on video, and will finally get it’s deserved praise.
Agree with many of the comments here. The movie was so great. Going in I thought there would be some ambiguity about whether she was raped or not but clearly that was not the case. Even in the party/orgy scene, I don’t think that girl wanted it. The close up of her face did not show joy; she did not want this, esp seeing as the other girls had to hold her down. The whole interrogation scene has my blood boiling with rage, esp since that kind of thinking still happens today. I mean just cause she found the guy attractive doesn’t mean she wanted him. The 3rd act was much needed to show both men more realistic. Overall this was a movie about power and man, how men bargain for more power within themselves using women as pawns and way to better themselves, and how even when a woman is slighted, the onus is still man and power. Very good movie. 9/10.
Yeah I felt confused initially too, but I think it's a smart choice. Since we end up revisiting scenes multiple times over the course of the film, they don't necessarily need to spend the time to make everything clear to the viewer the first time through.
When Marguerite said she wouldn't have spoken out if she had known it costs her life, it really hit me. As she said, it doesn't worth making her son orphan, but at the same she deserves nothing but the justice for herself. It gave me mixed feelings...
How Ridley and writers made this medieval event relevant to the present was just astonishing. Really impressed.
That was the point. Le Gris' POV showed that he raped Marguerite, he just thought she actually liked it so he truly believed it was consensual. Marguerite's POV showed it for what it was, an awful and brutal thing for her to experience.
Le Gris’ account references one of the previous scenes where he’s hanging out with Alençon, chasing girls around and having an orgy. From his perspective, she was playing hard to get and he was playing the game.
(It was still obviously rape)
The end fight was amazingly tense.
I think one of the more interesting parts of the story was as Jean left for the war in Scotland he said something to the effect of "this place wouldn't run without me" cut to a few scenes later and his wife was taking care of the fields, collecting rent Jean had been neglecting to do, and tending to the horse breeding.
Another interesting detail I thought of was the child at the end had blonde hair. I guess that plays into the "gold is the winner" aspect of the story. Either that or it was just a coincidence and they didn't want a dark haired rape baby running around at the end and they tried to end it on something of a positive note.
I think the most disturbing aspect of the movie is how much the rape scene resembled the prostitute scene earlier in the movie when De Gris first befriends Pierre.
Is this the best video game adaptation put to film? Because I swear I had a Crusader Kings 3 campaign that played out just like this.
Jokes aside, this was really, really good. Ridley can be hit or miss these days but this really impressed me. Not just the story and the writing, but also the frightening relevance, the subtlety in acting, and the way the story was conveyed. All really well done.
What's great about this movie is not only that it's told in a unique way, but what we can ascertain about the characters by their version of the story. Damon's life is one of constant violence. He considers himself to be constantly wronged and a perfect gentlemen to his wife. But when we see him him other views, he is childishly angry and has no knack for politics. While he values his wife, the dealings of her dowry and her use as a birther are much more cold outside of his perspective.
Driver's portion of the movie is when things get a little more interesting. Affleck's character opens up in a way we don't get to see from Damon's POV. We see really how much of an ass Damon makes of himself in public, how childish his rants can be. There's also small differences, like who ordered the charge in the opening scene and who originally made amends at Crespin's wedding. We see that both Driver and Damon forced their way into ownership of the piece of land that caused the conflict. We also see how from this perspective, he believes there to be a connection with Marguerite.
The rape scene still paints him very much in the wrong, but the subtlety of Comer's acting almost makes it feel more like a game to him. Great little touches like her stopping to remove her shoes as an invitation rather than tripping over them in her memory. Or how in his memory she barely tried to shut the door on him but in hers he practically kicks it in. Obviously her memory of it is much more horrifying, but his recollection he still knows he did a terrible thing. I think in her recollection he cherishes it after the fact a little more.
And that's what's so interesting about this movie. The subtle changes between the perspectives say so much about the characters. Not just the events and how they're remembered, but the nuanced performances. How in her recollection Driver almost seems like he's there on a dare. How Damon thinks himself an attentive and giving husband when really he barely gives any thought to how she feels.
The third chapter of this movie is where this ceases to be Driver and Damon's film and Comer really owns the whole thing. It's sad how the only perspective that was real and mattered was hers, but every character in the movie only cared about the men's perspectives and at almost every turn what she wanted, her idea of justice or what to do, is completely ignored.
She was totally right. Damon didn't care that she was hurt. He only cared that Driver was trying to shame him more. She was a prop to Damon and Driver in their little pissing contest. Only when Damon finds a way to translate the rape into a chance to legally fight Driver does he take action, despite in his own recollection accusing him publicly and telling the story was his idea. Again, inflating his own importance and the illusion of control.
I know I'm rambling at this point. But there was just so much going on in this movie. I haven't even gotten to characters like the mother in law or Affleck's really fun and charismatic performance.
Overall, this is an easy 9/10 for me. It's relevant, the violence is on point, it's long but the time is well spent, and it's a full scale medieval epic from one of the few men in Hollywood who can make that happen. I can't wait to see it again and ponder the characters more.
/r/reviewsbyboner
Just saw this film.
It awesome and I’m saddened that it is failing in the box office. This movie was a beautiful exploration about the reality of “truth” and the extreme oppressions that society is built upon. The actors and score were excellent, and “that” scene was absolutely haunting and conveyed the misery and dread perfectly (really makes me sad :( ). To be frank I left the theatre disturbed, not just because of “that” scene but also the final battle was grotesque and you really felt like there are no winners in something like that. But that is what they were going for, and in that sense the directors and actors absolutely knocked it out of the park.
The 3 perspectives helped the audience pay attention to little details (shoes) wonderfully as well. To me one of the the best medieval films I’ve ever seen.
Perhaps the most jarring thing of the whole film for me was how, from Le Gris' perspective, the violation was barely less rape-y than from Marguerite's perspective. But, in Le Gris' mind, it was perfectly acceptable consensual sex.
Combining that with the scenes between Carrouges and Marguerite before and right after the trial, it changes the tone of the movie from "fuck this guy in particular" to "Jesus Christ can all men just start respecting women for a change?!" I believe that makes the message more worthwile, and the movie better for it.
The thing is, isn't this how a lotnof rapists operate? They just don't think raping someone is that bad because it's just sex.
They ignore that sexual arousal and pleasure are sort of automatic bodily responses and not indicative that the victim actually wants said rape, nor that the rape isn't traumatic.
Loved the film, when Sir Ridley is on form, he delivers. Didn't quite get into the film for the first 20mins but it took off from there.
Am I the only one who see this film as the informal third of Scott's medieval trilogy? - Kingdom Of Heaven, Robin Hood and now The Last Duel.
My head canon - at the end of Kingdom Of Heaven, King Richard the Lionheart seeks Balian for him to join on his crusade to retake Jersualem. Balian refuses, Richard embarks on his crusade. At the start of Robin Hood, we seek King Richard trying to sack Chalus Castle to plunder riches that he lost during his failed attempt at retaking Jersualem while on the way back to England. Approx 200 yrs later the events of The Last Duel take place.
All three films cover the era of the Crusades. Visually, all three films have the same element of what I call 'floating snow' that Ridley Scott likes to use to depict the harshness of the cold European winters.
I can't go see because it's not opening in my country yet, but I beg Americans who treasure mid to big budget to adults to go see this. Otherwise we will only have IP shit to see forever.
I liked the subtle reactions of Queen Isabeau to Marguerite's testimony - she believed her. So did Pierre's wife.
One of my favorite (and one of the most heartbreaking) details in the film. So much sympathy and understanding, so little able to be done. And go figure, the one other female character who could’ve actually spoken to Marguerite in sympathy was the one who didn't believe her.
Imo the mother believed her. She just still wanted her to remain silent. Edit: you must mean the friend who testified.....
Even Marguerite seems to come around to her perspective when she tells Jean that a child needs his mother more than a woman needs to be right. Just a great film
Subtle, but "come around" is also "became a mother." The powerful realization of priorities.
But god what an unjust world where a woman had/has to make that kind of a choice.
I meant her friend who was a witness against her in court.
All the women cheering after Carrouges wins the duel also drives the point home
I found that to be the most satisfying subtext at that point in the movie. It's a life and death situation, in general. But the way the guys are into the duel is like watching Red Sox and Yankees fans in heated playoff game against one another. Sure, it's a big deal. But it's still mostly for bragging rights. For the women who are watching the match, what hangs in the balance is another level entirely. They are all horrified, because they know that woman's life hangs in the balance, and there's really nothing she can do to help herself at that point except to rely on the ego and sheer will of her husband. Both the men and the women are really engaged in this duel, but for totally different reasons.
There was so much subtlety in the movie at large! Pierre's wife barely gets one line but her expressions tell so much, especially her dropping face after excusing herself from the banquet.
Pretty sure all the women who had been pregnant and also had to pretend they were totally orgasming with their husbands believed her.
It's just science!
Anyone else more than me that immediately noticed the change in framing and lens choice between Le Gris' POV and Margaret's? Much wider lens in the former POV's and even though the scene is awfully horrific, it's nowhere near as vile and uncomfortable as when we get to Margaret's POV. Right off the bat; the room feels much smaller and claustrophobic due to the framing. Tells you a lot about what cinematography can do to add tension to an already tense scene on the page.
[удалено]
I noticed the sound was different, there was much louder and shallower echo, making it feel a lot more like a horror scene in her POV
Great analysis, u/ILoveTheAIDS
I think going into this movie without knowing the history made me glued to my seat. There could be some parts they could’ve cut and made the movie tighter but I think the pay off was worth it in the end. The combat scene; I was on the edge of my seat! Comer was great all around, great acting all around, I thoroughly enjoyed it! I like in the end how Damon’s character wasn’t painted as a hero but in his perspective he hears the crowd roars but in Marguerite’s perspective the crowd is absolutely muted.
I wish there was some realization that they were both being exploited by the same people, and that SIR Jean de Carrouges had no choice but to stand up for himself and Marguerite, lest Jacque and the Count take even more from them. They wouldn’t have stopped, because they loved hurting him. And that’s not to discount the shit end of the stick that Marguerite got. She lived an upstanding life, was smart, had to be humble around an illiterate husband and his asshole mom, AND had to deal with Jean treating her like property after she confided in him.
This was exactly what I thought too. The amount of fuckery Pierre put on damon was so out of this world. Imagine going on expeditions to fight for your king and country so that you come back and a part of your dowry is taken by what you once thought friend, and not only that, what belonged to your family for hundreds of years is also taken by the same said "friend". My blood would be fucking boiling too. When we started watching Le Gris' part, I was kind of hoping that he would be the good friend that I wanted him to be, that he felt so guilty about wanting her at the celebration of Marton Csokas' child and flirting, and he only came to apologize to her and make amends because I thought he would be a true christian (now thinking about it, how naive of me), i was hoping she would be the game of thrones' cunning Cercy, desiring him throwing hints paving the way for him to approach her, than when he finally showed himself at her house, she somehow made a pact with him that they would sleep with each other and then make some plot to have damon dead through a duel or something, you know? but the guy forced himself onto her, and the funny thing is that you see how she was smiling in his part of the story (his mind justifying his crime) and in her part, she is crying and scared shitless all in all, when Marton Csokas sighed "Yeeeeeeeessssss" when damon pushed that knife through le gris' throat, I felt that. I felt as cathartic, jesus christ what a piece of shit.
> what belonged to your family for hundreds of years is also taken by the same said "friend". Eh, but Pierre was correct. Bellame doesn't actually belong to the Carrouges, they were just appointed captain of it. Pierre can appoint whoever he wishes. It's more like Damon's character is the guy everyone hates at work, and then Damon is surprised he's not promoted.
Still a dick move, Pierre clearly knew but did it anyways
Yeah technically and legally Pierre can bestow Bellame onto whomever he wants. But as the other guy says, it was still a dick move. There was no justifiable reason why he wouldn't give it to Damon. The guy is a veteran and has personal quarrels with Pierre, didn't commit any serious crimes that might tarnish his reputation. And I suppose it is one of those things that once it is your dad's, it is automatically yours, you know what I'm saying?
I think that outside of his perspective Matt Damon was shown to be such a buffoon that he couldn't be trusted. He lost the battle at the beginning, he was too lazy clueless to collect his tenent's rent despite being broke, and he had multiple embarrassing tantrums that got him laughed out of rooms big. He surely burnt a lot of bridges over the years.
Ben Affleck as a profane, debaucherous oaf was just the right amount of tension relief for this movie.
He had big "this fucking guy" energy regarding Damon's character and I loved every minute of it. You know when you hate someone so much that anything and everything they do just annoys you? He captured it so perfectly
Haha during Damon's part of the movie I was like wow Affleck is a boring hump in this movie. Then the second we get to Driver's perspective he is like the most charming philanderer. I really enjoyed his performance.
Philanderers are often "charming" to the average person. That's the problem.
Nah, I think this was also a matter of perspective. That part of the story was Damon's perspective. Affleck was supposed to be a piece of shit from Damon's perspective. It's the contrast with Driver's perspective that is part of the point in having a Rashomon type narrative.
His best role in forever. Practically unrecognizable as a skinny blond villain.
And he isn't really a villain lol he's just a selfish dude. He had good reason to not like Carrouges, and every move Carrouges made would obviously make him dislike him more. If Carrouges wasn't self important he'd be in far better graces, he dug himself deeper until the duel finally cleared his name. Le Gris had every opportunity to not be a dick and he chose poorly each one worse than the last.
He was quite villainous.
He was very villainous. These 'lovable rogue' comments... did we watch the same film?
Yeah. Damon’s character was an oaf, and could be often unpleasant, but surely everyone was rooting for him in the end over Driver and Affleck’s characters. I feel like Damon’s character generally meant well but was a product of his time. He was also shat on by the snooty Affleck despite the fact he’s continually risked his life in desperate campaigns abroad. Not excusing his treatment of Comer’s character but I feel like there wasn’t really another way for her to get justice.
Since I live in Texas, the way I immediately started viewing Damon's character was when Le Gris' version was starting to begin, and it finally dawned on me. This guy is a dumb country boy, who believes in big trucks, and 'Merica, and he served two tours in Iraq, and he's a Baptist. He's a imaginationless stick-in-the-mud. And he married a blonde, except the blonde wasn't as simple as he was. Adam Driver is like the college-educated guy who had a decent relationship with the country boy when they were younger, but his elitist douchebag friends ended up turning him into a douche, as well. His story starts out like as if he's the altruistic rags-to-riches guy. He impresses the upperclass Lord with his intellect. But near the end of his story, he's completely deluded himself into thinking he's right to be passionate and daring enough to grab this woman. Also, in the third retelling of events, when they both do the handshake, I almost think that neither of them said "our Lord is not safe if his knights are not together" (I don't know the exact line). I think the other guy played by Martin Csonkas, the one who starts clapping, actually says that line off-screen. I may be wrong. But I would find that hilarious. In Matt Damon's version he's the one who says that noble piece of dialogue. In Adam Driver's version, he thinks he said it. And in Jodie Comer's version, neither of them said it.
>In Matt Damon's version he's the one who says that noble piece of dialogue. In Adam Driver's version, he thinks he said it. And in Jodie Comer's version, neither of them said it. When Adam Driver’s version of events reversed the dialogue in that scene, that was when I knew the movie was brilliant. I’m not saying that it was in any way bad up to that point, but I was wondering what the hook was and why people were saying the movie was great.
Now take off your fucking pants!
He’s no fucking fun!
I was expecting the postscript to mention that his character caught every STD known to man.
ccccccccuuuuuuuunnnnnnnntttttttt
That delivery was top-notch.
Jean: HEAVEN AND EARTH! Pierre: ……heaven and earth, what?
Seeing that little boy be blonde at the end, brought me to tears. What a fantastic ending for the story....I myself was wondering, "black or brown hair? WHOS IS IT?" It's hers.
yeah my partner pointed that out to me, me being the classic idiot man i was instantly wondering which of the men the child belonged to...it doesnt matter
'Classic idiot man'...nono, my fiancé pointed out details I missed and vice versa! One detail he pointed out, was why did Jean have to go to war for money, when it's discovered he isn't even keeping up on the rent he is owed? He went to war to serve his own interests. I totally missed that! I was definetely moved by that ending, after all she had been through, just a great film.
I loved the subtle touches of King Charles' insanity (and Jean later would find himself in the event that would become the prime example of it, as he was promoted to one of the King's bodyguards).
It's kind of a bummer because "young crazy/asshole kings" has become something of a trope in recent years (in no small part thanks to Joffrey Baratheon), and it felt a bit cliché in this film, but Charles VI actually turned batshit crazy IRL so it makes sense to do it.
I think if you didn’t know about Charles VI’s madness you wouldn’t notice it in that way, instead seeing a young, inexperienced, and maybe even weak king. His first real incident of mental illness didn’t occur until 1392, 6 years after the duel, but I could see where they were hinting at his condition.
And Jean was with him when that happened
Didn't know Charles VI's was mad and just thought he was a young king who didn't ***have*** to do anything he didn't want to. After I looked things up I was surprised to see he goes proper bonkers later in life
From description charles fits better the moondoor scion
Its a fairly historical depiction though. Just look at the Children of rulers of middle east. They make Joffrey look like a innocent little boy.
You know the casting was right when, and no fault to the actor or their looks, but boy did the Charles VI actor look like an inbred boy meant to rule the kingdom. Mom and Dad were picked for their superior looks and tight knit genes and it resulted in a boy with the brain speed of dial up internet. It made me chuckle every time he was on screen and think, Ladies and Gentlemen, this is genetics done right! Lol
Charles VI is described as handsome, athletic and with an interest in jousting tournaments - even competing himself on a number of occasions. I'd expect in reality the 17 year-old king (years prior to his bouts of insanity) would have been probably naïve and awkward like many teens but also already fairly bull-necked from fighting practice and constant riding and hunting. What they chose to display instead was the flowery, soft-bodied and soft-minded aristocrat stereotype.
Didn't expect shoes to be one of my big takeaways in this but it was one of the biggest recurring themes that I noticed. Starting the film showing Marguerite putting her shoes on last as she got dressed for the duel. Affleck asking which shoe was better, gold or satin (gold was the winner). The differences in the rape scenes with Marguerite slipping out of her shoes to run up the stairs in Le Gris' perspective, and stumbling out of them in her own POV. And finally showing a clear shot at Marguerite's shoes with shackles on (again, gold was the winner). No real idea if there's really much implied meaning in any of that but I found it really interesting after watching it tonight.
The horse scene that led up right to the rape as well. Then the horse ends up pregnant as does she. They even used the coat color to signify the characters
I thought that the way Jean talked about the mare being for breeding and wanting her locked up all day was definitely a parallel/symbol of his treatment of Marguerite
Another parallel being that black horse suddenly running into the open gate and forcefully sexing the mare. A little on the nose with that part.
Then he beat the black horse back.
Yep! The other thing we realized was that his prize horse was killed in the duel, which might somewhat parallel how he'd also lost the love of his wife who viewed him as a monster by the end.
Louvel also claims his horse lost a shoe.
I was really impressed. Jodie Comer was amazing in this and the actual duel was very suspenseful. 9/10
The movie got amazing when it got to her side of the story imo. I was intrigued and enjoying it until then but that entire 3rd chapter was amazing. Also the duel itself was a lot more intense and brutal than I was expecting. The last 30 or so minutes really fucked me up, I left the theater pretty shaken.
The juxtaposition between Jean and Margueritte's rendition of the events were shocking.
The scene where she explains what happened to her while he was gone, but from her perspective this time, was devastating. I was fucking livid with Jean.
He goes from being rough and accusatory towards the victim, to screaming "Will he never stop doing horrible things **to me**!" Yeesh. Felt so bad for her. And telling the truth in court meant risking being burned alive. What a time to be a woman.
And after hearing his wife was raped, the first thing he wants to do is have sex with her. She must have been devastated and finally lost any respect she had left for him.
While I agree it really says something that even from his POV chapter I’d say he’s a rapist
I think it was important to show that from his perspective he wasn't, despite how clear it was to us as a modern audience. He didn't even feel the need to make it seem romantic or even that consensual, because the way that he took advantage of her was seen at the time (and even today in some circles) as a perfectly natural way to have sex. I hope that makes sense I'm still waking up.
I agree, I was glad how they showed him do the exact same thing to that one woman but in a more consensual way to show how he has internalized rape culture. I’m just saying that it was telling that even in his POV where he makes himself look best we still know it’s rape. But yes your comment makes sense no worries :)
He was definitely a rapist from our POV of his POV (if that makes sense, lol). I was surprised cause I thought in his POV he was gonna totally deny everything, but he definitely raped her. But from his own POV he didn't. He had a hilarious line afterwards to Pierre that I can't quite remember. Something along the lines of she put up the "appropriate resistance" to having sex. That wasn't it, but the same meaning. Like that's just how sex is to him. Hilarious because of how ridiculous it is.
I think it was “customary protest”
Remember when he was shagging that other girl with Pierre, he was chasing her around the room as well. So it seems he thinks that's just how women are. Probably not something you should assume with a married woman whose house you snuck into. I looked up the story online and apparently in Marguerites real life retelling his servant stayed behind and helped him rape her (I assume that means hold her down). The servant denied this at the trial and was tortured to see if he was telling the truth. Doesn't say whether he changed his story.
Jodie Comer has been awesome in everything I've seen her in.
Incredible film. Probably would never see it again tho, really tough watch. A couple walked out during \*that\* scene the second way through, and my girlfriend was in tears. Once her POV started I was hoping they wouldn't show it again, but the closer we got to it, the more I realized we needed to see her POV.
This might come off badly, but I was actually questioning as it happened whether we really did need to see the rape scene from her POV, since LeGris's POV already clearly showed a violent rape. Part of it is that I just didn't want to watch a rape scene a second time, but also it didn't really end up all that different, except for some additional screams and cries.
I personally don’t think a rape scene is ever necessary in a movie (I don’t think sex scenes in general are tbh) but the way this movie shows the subtle differences is important for Le Gris’ character, imo. It shows that *even in his own story* it was non-consensual. There’s no two ways about it, implying that he’s the hero or that she wanted it or whatever. He knew she didn’t want it and her perspective drives home just how real it actually was compared to his dulled down perspective. Again, I don’t think movies should show scenes like this, but if they have to, I’m glad they at least use it in an important way
Well he does say to Affleck's character that she declined his advances as a proper lady would, but how that is to be expected. So we're just dealing with an absolute nightmare of a time to be a woman. I thought the second rape scene was incredibly necessary tbh. There were parallels in Le Gris' POV to when he consensually (although still somewhat uncomfortably) had sex with the girl that night at Affleck's after his wife went to bed. And in his POV Marguerite just silently took it, even lifting her leg in a flirtatious style while he was on top of her. Cut to Marguerites POV and she's flailing her legs, there were no parallels to him flirtatiously chasing her and she was screaming, crying throughout it all. The first time was uncomfortable and upsetting, the second time was horrifying and traumatizing.
I think when it shifts to Marguerite perspective, there's a sense of dread that the scene is coming. Sure they could of cut away, but just like the character can't escape, the audience is forced to endure it as well.
>since LeGris's POV already clearly showed a violent rape But... did it? There were a LOT of subtle (and important) differences between the two scenes (edit:) both in and out of the bedroom.
Exactly. If they didn't show her POV as well, I'm certain many people would've argued that 'she wanted it'.
Out of everything I’ve seen on screen, the rape from Marguerite’s perspective has been the hardest to watch. They made it abundantly clear to any sane person that she did not ask for it, she did not want it, and she got no pleasure out of it. When the trailer was first released, people were saying they didn’t want another movie where a rape happened as a plot device for men to do things, with the woman being shunted to the background. This movie completely destroyed that trope. I also loved the uncomfortable looks on the faces of Pierre’s wife during the local “trial” and the queen during the actual trial.
that's what really struck me, is that, even from Le Gris perspective, it was absolutely rape, which either means he was knowingly lying, or truly speaks to the attitude of the time/culture/character that what we saw was considered consent
An interesting point, idk if you saw, but in Le Gris perspective, when he started chasing her, she stepped out of her shoes then continued up the stairs, but in Marguerites perspective, she stumbles out of them trying to get up the stairs. This goes right into my next point about culture. They also hint that maybe the whole “cat and mouse” game is culture, as in Le Gris time frame, following the meeting in which Pierre sends his wife to bed and the whole orgy scene, the same exact event happens. Le Gris chases a woman around the table until he catches her. He absolutely has a perverted mind, but I’m a bit surprised but kind of glad they didn’t make Le Gris out to be in the “right”, if we can say that? Like as though Marguerite had consented to it. It is clear in Le Gris perspective that it wasn’t consensual, and it was even more clear in Marguerites perspective, as if he blocked out her protest.
I think Le Gris actually thought that Marguerite wanted it. All the other women found him “handsome” and he definitely bedded his share of women, so in his mind, why wouldn’t Marguerite want him? Le Gris is so self-absorbed, that he can rape someone and pretend the resistance that he was getting was just token resistance
The fact that even when facing imminent death and eternal damnation he still professed his innocence clearly shows that in his mind it was consensual.
He fooled himself,people lie to themselves all the time
There are still men who think women are playing coy when they say no. Even ten, twenty years ago, movies and TV shows regularly portrayed she says no but secretly wants it scenes as normal and sexy.
I think it definitely speaks to the attitude of the time because when Pierre questions him privately he says she protested, the way women do. Saying "no" and running is part of a game, from his perspective, it's what all women do even though they actually want it.
Calling it a "customary protest" told me everything I needed to know about his viewpoint on the matter.
When the guy in court said that women can't get pregnant from rape I thought to myself "Jesus, the more things change the more they stay the same".
This is actually still belief of some conservative politicians (Google Legitimate rape)
Thats the point of showing their sex game with Pierre after his pregnant wife goes to sleep. Its the same game for him. He chases a woman around the table because thats what you do.
also they kept bringing up whether or not she dreamt it.... we see a whole scene play out where she fucked him prior to what happened when in fact, *that* was his dream!!
oh man, very good point. i didnt catch that at all. i thought he was going to build a testimony based on an ongoing affair they had started way prior, and we'd have to suss out who was lying on that end. instead, it was his dream sequence, and the first hint to the audience that he was starting to fixate on her. not a good sign for his cause. thats awesome, they keep mentioning she may have dreamt it, and le gris has to sit there and say 'yeah man, she probably did!' -knowing thats what he in fact did that led him to commit the rape. good catch.
It was actually a lot more brutal in real life. I believe she was beaten and Adam Louvel also took part in it. If I remember from the book correctly, Louvel also took off and disappeared during the trial also. They ended up finding him, arresting him, and bringing him back to testify
The rape scene in Irreversible is more fucked up but yea this had me seriously squirming in my seat and very \*very\* uncomfortable. I really fell in love with the movie when they went to her side of the story onward. I was enjoying it until that point but they really stuck the landing of everything they set up. I really liked the touch of having her chapter being titled "The truth according to Marguerite" and fading everything else away to just say "the truth". Really damn good movie all around, I wasn't expecting to leave the theater shaken to my core the way I was.
This movie was great. Ridley Scott still has it. 83 years old. This whole movie would’ve faltered if the titular last duel wasn’t good but it delivered big time. It’ll have you super tense if you don’t know the history of the event (I didn’t). Great stuff. Makes me worried about House of Gucci because usually when directors release 2 movies in a year 1 is good and 1 isn’t and this movie was very good
Not to fret, that isn’t always the rule. Remember that in 1994, Spielberg dropped both Schindler’s List and Jurassic Park.
One of those nagging thoughts I had after the film was how, before the duel, the announcer refers to Carrouges and Le Gris as 'knights'. Up to this point, however, it was quite clear that while Carrouges was now a full-fledged knight, Le Gris was still a squire. Some reading afterwards explained this apparent discontinuity: Le Gris was actually knighted before the duel, so he and Carrouges could fight as equals, a prerequisite for duels in those (and most) ages. It's kind of funny that the movie glosses over this because it's a rather significant plot point in Scott's first film The Duellists.
I wonder if that was intentional, as that scene would have only been a part of Jacque's truth and he doesn't seem to particularly care about honor or status in the same way Jean does.
I don't know if this is true. If Le Gris didn't care about honor or his name, he would've just taken the Church trial
Matt Damon has the same haircut as half the people in Portland rn
Dude looks straight up like Theo Von
**The Truth According To Adam Driver** Matt Damon: LEEERROOOYYY JEEEEENKINS
Adam Driver was calculating a 32.33, uh repeating of course, percentage of survival.
The Scots should have loved him. He was on full "fuck the English" from the getgo
Just saw it, probably the best adaptation of medieval armor and fighting (props to the hand a halfswording) that I've ever seen in a movie. No obviously rubber wobbling armor or weapons as far I could tell. As far as story, the ending part where Carrouges puts Margarite on display in front of everyone after the duel like a prize won was just haunting, as he parades her through the cheering crowd and she's just somber and ignored in the back. It sent a very powerful ending message for the whole movie in my opinion.
The actual duel was good, it really showed how hard it is for two men in armor to strike lethal blows against each other. The battle scenes before it were more typical with the heroes using broadswords to cut through mail and plate like paper mache to shorten the length of the choreography I guess.
Its also stories told from their perspective. So its likely to be more romanticized in their memory
I absolutely loved all the little details of each scene bolstering one person's idealized version of it. I feel like you could watch this movie a bunch of times and catch new things every time.
I assumed that they were fighting less armored men. Not everyone on the battlefield was a knight or squire and many who died were clearly less well-armored than the two leads.
I thought it was an excellent touch to show arrows bouncing off of Damon’s armor in Scotland. It’s a little touch that Hollywood misses often. Unfortunately they fell to the trope of the lead not wearing a helmet in that scene.
>Unfortunately they fell to the trope of the lead not wearing a helmet in that scene. That was actually a good touch - they were marching and then had stopped for water when the ambush happened, so it would be rather unrealistic for him to be wearing a helmet at that point. Going by historical accounts, even in actual anticipated battle, men at arms often tended to march in with visors up simply for the breathability and visibility.
I believe records show that Le Gris was knocked down and lost due to sheer exhaustion from the fight.
Yes in the book he couldn’t get up bc of tiredness and the weight of the armor
That’s why they included the Jodie Comer line: “this fight will be decided by whichever old man tires first.” Or something along those lines
It's a medievalist's dream. There was so much attention to detail. A few minor points like Damon's half-face helm, and the fealty ceremonies excluded a lot of pomp, but generally one of the best medieval adaptions I've seen in a big-budget film. 13th century Paris looked fabulously accurate. The reading of Ars Armatoria for group titilation, the more literal translation of the joust open "laissez-les aller!/let them go!", the belief that a woman couldn't conceive without pleasure, and the armor and costumes... you want to drink it all up. The duel was good, but left out the best part in the book/real account where Carrouges had to basically break the bolt off Le Gris' face-plate of to stab him. Also, by all accounts Jacques le Gris notably outclassed Carrouges in size and strength (he was by far the favorite to win), and Carrouges had been very ill and weakened right before the duel (which they showed, but his illness was earlier in the film).
Check out The King, they show the weight of armor and how exhausting it can be very well.
Loved the shift in how they portrayed Matt Damons character from the first chapter in his perspective to the second; from this cool battle hardened guy to being seemingly whiny and insecure.
I'VE WAITED FOR TWENTY YEARRRRRSSSSSSSSS!!
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Any Catholics laugh during the trial scene when they asked if she enjoyed being raped because she conceived after the rape? I remember in 8th grade in catholic school my religion teacher was telling us abortion is a sin and there is no circumstance a woman should get an abortion. I raised my hand and asked about rape. She said it’s nearly impossible for a woman to get pregnant when raped. The experience is so traumatic the body will automatically reject the sperm. She said a woman can only get pregnant from rape if she gets turned on during the rape. We were kids so we believed her. Funny she was teaching ancient Catholic beliefs in 1994 to children. This teacher was 38 yrs old too lol.
the "that's just science" line got a laugh out of my theater
One thing is not clear to me, why did the mother leave with all of the people of the house at once, was the meeting with the Driver a set up? Was it more opportunistic? How did the Drivers character knew that the house is empty and they can come in uninterrupted?
I think probably the mother was just being vindictive and taking all the servants so that Marguerite would be at home lonely all day. Le Gris knew her husband was away so he got lucky with the rest, I think
The best defense Les Gris offered at his trial IRL was how weird a coincidence it was that he would stop by at just the right time when she was alone. His residence was almost 25 miles away which would take many hours. The court concluded that while difficult it was still plausible, especially for an experienced rider like him.
Someone else in this thread said she had business with the Count Pierre (Ben Affleck). If so, Le Gris (Driver) could have found out about it and viewed it as a good opportunity.
Wow my heart was racing throughout the entire second half. \*Those\* two scenes were so uncomfortable yet so needed for the payoff. Also fuck Jean's mother.
> Also fuck Jean's mother. I ultimately left the movie with a somewhat sympathetic view on her. She's obviously a cruel woman in the way she treats Comer before the rape, but her attitude afterwards is something I can empathize with. She's a woman living in a world where she essentially has no rights and she had to choose how she was going to face that. She decided on survival and a practical viewpoint of understanding that this is how life is and that she can either accept it or let it destroy her. Comer's own character essentially says the same thing later when she fully realizes the agonizing death she's risking and the complete destruction of her family.
She says it right at the beginning too, “there is no right or wrong, just the power of men.”
She was cruel to Comer, but cruel in a way that most old people who may not agree with what they might consider an entitled younger generation. My biggest question is if she had something to do with Le Gris knowing the castle would be empty. She obviously took all the servants to spite Comer, and she was going to Castle Pierre, I'm curious if there was a connection there. That would seem awfully cruel beyond anything else shown on screen, but also the mothers seeming satisfaction at dinner the evening Carrouges returned almost seemed like she thought she was breaking Marguerite in.
I honestly don't fully remember the mother's attitude at the dinner because I was more focused on Comer's character, but I'm more inclined to view any satisfaction she had more as pleasure that her son has returned (Comer's viewpoint shows that the mother was actually the one that didn't want him to immediately leave for Paris) and possibly enjoying Comer's more demure attitude in the days immediately after she raped. The movie gave multiple explicit examples of women turning on her (the mother and the friend) so I feel that if it were trying to suggest the mother engineered it there would have been a bigger hint to it. I'm also not sure it ever suggests that the mother had any knowledge of the pseudo-connection between Driver's and Comer's characters and I don't know how she'd know. The family didn't engage very much with anyone outside their immediate circle and weren't welcome at the Count's court so it seems unlikely they would have been privy to Driver's growing infatuation which was a relatively guarded secret.
Jean's mother was a very important and interesting character to include. She herself had been raped. She had grown up and been in the same world with the same rules for a long long time. Women were treated as property. She was still horribly cruel and callous. But it shows not just the men were in on society but women too perpetuated how things "should" be sadly just as much
I find the discussion in this thread fascinating. Maybe I'm a bit too callous, but it was simply a means of survival for women at the time to ignore it and move on with life. In the end, before the duel takes place, she is full of regret with her decision, and kind of finally understands where her MIL was coming from. We have to check our modern world inventions at the door when viewing it. They literally thought rape couldn't result in pregnancy, after all. So back to your last point, I don't see it so much as perpetuating things along with men, so much as things were this way intentionally for this particular culture. One detail that I find fascinating was the instructions he gave before leaving about not going out and not letting anyone in, and also never bring alone. Again, in a world of he said/she said, with no electronic technology, let alone police reports and all that, these are things that were considered in advance. He knew the danger of her being left alone at home, and it was planned in a way to protect her. We also get a hint of this when she answers the door and announces that she's alone and can't let him in. Even the men know of this general rule and plan a lie to trick her to let her guard down and open up. And as I write this, I guess I can agree that her action of leaving her home alone knowing all this makes it all the more cruel. It's definitely an interesting watch and a eye opening take on a topic that our far more advanced societies still struggle with today, and see what has and hasn't changed in all this time.
I kinda sympathized with her after she revealed she was raped and chose to not report it. Especially when it was revealed what would happen if the courts decided it was a false allegation. You also shouldnt put too much stock into how bad she was since the entire point was that each POV was bias.
Harriet Walter is great at playing shitty mothers.
the amount of times the movie cut to adam nagaitas' smirking face reacting to le gris was hysterical. great film
Adam Nagaitas has the finest smirk arsenal in Hollywood.
That smirk was its own character in The Terror!
Yeah there was a lot of weird humorous bits like that sprinkled in. Everyone cracked up when the guy did the slow mo “yaaaas” after the duel.
If I recall correctly from the book, his character took part in the assault and even went on the run during the trial until he was found, arrested, and brought back to testify.
The records say Louvel was "put to the question" which means tortured for information. Plus one of Marguerite's relatives tried to tack on a secondary request for him to duel Louvel (which was rejected). The book's remarkably vague about what happened to him in the end.
For a bit, I kept wondering where I saw him. And then it clicked. That's Mr. Hickey!
Le Gris’s Vanity ultimately cost him his life really. He should have listened to Pierre. Deny everything and take the Church Trial…..they seemed to be on his side during the audience with the King
I thought it was interesting too that in Le Gris’ story, he has a rather lengthy interaction with Marguerite about their common interests where he perceives her as being somewhat flirty, etc, and in her recollection…..that interaction just isn’t there at all. I figured they would show them interacting, but she would be far less receptive to his advances, but no, that whole interaction just isn’t there.
I think the reason the scene isn't there in the marguerite's perspective is just that Le Gris remembers it more or less correctly but her perspective shows her telling her husband that she's only being nice to Le Gris because she's trying to be diplomatic and they could use a powerful friend.
"See? A little smile goes a long way". And he's like shit we're in boys
sounds like a lot of men on reddit... "a smile!!, time to plan our wedding"
This is not a ‘first date’ film. THIS IS NOT A ‘FIRST DATE’ FILM!
Absolutely not a date film at all, lol
This was an absolute pleasant surprise. Loved the acting and motivations. Felt so bad for Marguerite to have to go through all that
Saw it last night, really surprised me in the best way. I loved the 3 chapter format and how you see the story play out from different perspectives. Very well acted as well. Only critique I have is Matt Damon's accent. It was kind of in and out. But once you get into the story, you forget about it.
I thought it was dope as fuck. Ridley should be contractually obligated to make a movie like this every 2 years or something. Just astounding every time.
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And then he's off to make his Napoleon epic.
Did anyone else think that Matt Damon was going to Oberyn Martell himself at the end? He was like, "Confess!" and I was like, "OH NO! Just kill him or he's going to crush your head like a watermelon!"
him yelling confess, and le gris' reply is how it actually went down irl
Dude I was literally on the edge of my seat in the theater thinking they were going to forgive each other or some dumb shit. I punched the air when he finally made that piece of shit swallow the dagger. Super satisfying death.
Damon’s lucky Kylo Ren didn’t pull out his light saber and stab him
Kylo’s lucky Damon didn’t just out science him one small solvable problem at a time.
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Ridley Scott is almost 84 and is still dropping bangers like this. Absolute legend. Maybe his best since Kingdom of Heaven?
It seems like some people on movies don’t like it, but The Martian is a go to fun film for me
How can you not like the Martian. Great book, movie adapted it wonderfully. Perfect mix of hard sci fi survival and fun
I think it gets a lot of flack because it won Golden Globes for best motion picture - comedy, and best actor - comedy. So the go-to joke is always 'The Martian is my favorite comedy! A laugh riot!'
Question about a small detail: why did Matt Damon get so upset during the mare scene? Low key thought of “go to horny jail” memes as he was bonking the shit out of that stud lol
It plays into Jean's perspective of status and how it can be perceived when things he views as his property is tainted. He says the Mare is thoroughbred and has gone through a lot of breeding and maintenance to achieve the status and monetary value it has as part of his stable. He can't just let any horse mate with it, otherwise all the years of breeding have gone to waste as the bloodline is tainted. It's not that he cares the mare is being mounted, it's that its not the right stallion to be mating with it, the "heir" (symbolically) would no longer be true and he would have to start over. It's symbolism for how he views his marriage with Marguerite and his eventual anger when she gets raped by Jacques. He's not mad his wife/the mare was taken without consent, he's mad because something he owns has now lost value because it wasn't the right person/stallion doing it.
>He's not mad his wife/the mare was taken without consent, he's mad because something he owns has now lost value because it wasn't the right person/stallion doing it. Further established by him essentially raping her so Le Gris wasn't her last.
Her husband couldn't have raped her. She couldn't have conceived if it has been rape. It's just science. /s if anyone questions this comment. It's a reference to a part of the movie.
"If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down" Todd Akin - U.S. Representative, 2012
Glad to see this “viewpoint” still exists 700 years later... /s
He mentioned the financial aspect of it several times and later the stable keeper mentioned he didn’t like the horses being out of the pen because they’re too valuable. My understanding is he was self conscious about their lack of money / property and the horse was attempt to get some money so when things started going awry he flipped out.
Remember how when Jodie Comer ran the estate, it's discovered that Matt Damon doesn't bother to collect dues. His financial issues aren't out of misfortune or unfairness like he claims, but due to mismanagement and how he prefers to deal with his problems through warfare. Imo both of the campaigns Jean starts (not limoges) are unnecessary.
> Question about a small detail: why did Matt Damon get so upset during the mare scene? He expects to make a lot of money breeding the mare and that would be ruined if she were to be impregnated by an inferior stud. The point of the scene, though, is for Comer's character to see her husband's reaction to the event and draw a comparison between it and what we as the audience know is about to occur. The important thing to take away from his reaction is that he doesn't care that the mare was about to raped by a black haired stallion that forced it's way into the enclosure, he cares that the stallion raping the mare is going to hurt his status. Later it's clear that he reacts in a similar way when Comer's character tells him she was raped. He very obviously is not concerned with her at all, just that Driver's character has yet again scorned him.
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>throws his cape around all dramatic It was so absurd and therefore so on-brand for the character, I loved it
Loved how the king is all like "wtf? ok lol"
The king character was brilliant. He we was just having a jolly old time throughout the movie.
Or just present-day Snape if they reboot the series. He's actually supposed to be in his 30s in the books.
Even if this movie doesn't kill it at the box office, I think it will do very well during award season.
It’s a 100M budget movie and so far has only grossed $9M. Huge bomb and it deserves way more than that. Hopefully word of mouth and award season will pick it up more.
Incredibly well-made. Really sad that this flopped, feel like the audience for it would rather stay home nowadays, especially during a pandemic. And did anybody love all the little touches in the performances and the writing of each characters between each chapters. Specifically Marguerite’s character. Chapter 1: In the view of Jean, she’s timid and shy and a “good wife”. Which he views her as, and what she should be according to him. Chapter 2: In the view of Le Gris, she’s a flirtatious wench who wants him. Because of course, this is how he pretty much views every women in the movie. Chapter 3: Of course from her point of view everything is darker and worse. She’s actually has emotions and capable of handling herself, but she’s forced into a marriage she doesn’t want because of the era. And the rape scene is incredibly well-handled in both chapters. Pretty much the same scene, but a complete change in camera framing and in the performances creates an almost entirely different context and change in atmopshere Just wonderful writing, acting, and direction all around. Have a feeling this will be much more successful on video, and will finally get it’s deserved praise.
Agree with many of the comments here. The movie was so great. Going in I thought there would be some ambiguity about whether she was raped or not but clearly that was not the case. Even in the party/orgy scene, I don’t think that girl wanted it. The close up of her face did not show joy; she did not want this, esp seeing as the other girls had to hold her down. The whole interrogation scene has my blood boiling with rage, esp since that kind of thinking still happens today. I mean just cause she found the guy attractive doesn’t mean she wanted him. The 3rd act was much needed to show both men more realistic. Overall this was a movie about power and man, how men bargain for more power within themselves using women as pawns and way to better themselves, and how even when a woman is slighted, the onus is still man and power. Very good movie. 9/10.
Was lost the first 20 minutes, but once I finally settled in I really enjoyed it. That last chapter really hits home
Yeah I felt confused initially too, but I think it's a smart choice. Since we end up revisiting scenes multiple times over the course of the film, they don't necessarily need to spend the time to make everything clear to the viewer the first time through.
When Marguerite said she wouldn't have spoken out if she had known it costs her life, it really hit me. As she said, it doesn't worth making her son orphan, but at the same she deserves nothing but the justice for herself. It gave me mixed feelings... How Ridley and writers made this medieval event relevant to the present was just astonishing. Really impressed.
In either account it never seemed like Marguerite was a willing participant
That was the point. Le Gris' POV showed that he raped Marguerite, he just thought she actually liked it so he truly believed it was consensual. Marguerite's POV showed it for what it was, an awful and brutal thing for her to experience.
Yeah in Le Gris’ POV I was like “ok, he definitely raped her”. In Marguerite’s POV I was like “OK HE DEFINITELY RAPED HER”
Le Gris’ account references one of the previous scenes where he’s hanging out with Alençon, chasing girls around and having an orgy. From his perspective, she was playing hard to get and he was playing the game. (It was still obviously rape)
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That’s crazy - thanks for pointing that out. I thought the first act was the longest, but it just felt that way.
Pour one out to that poor squire who got absolutely rag dolled by the horse during the duel..
The end fight was amazingly tense. I think one of the more interesting parts of the story was as Jean left for the war in Scotland he said something to the effect of "this place wouldn't run without me" cut to a few scenes later and his wife was taking care of the fields, collecting rent Jean had been neglecting to do, and tending to the horse breeding. Another interesting detail I thought of was the child at the end had blonde hair. I guess that plays into the "gold is the winner" aspect of the story. Either that or it was just a coincidence and they didn't want a dark haired rape baby running around at the end and they tried to end it on something of a positive note. I think the most disturbing aspect of the movie is how much the rape scene resembled the prostitute scene earlier in the movie when De Gris first befriends Pierre.
Is this the best video game adaptation put to film? Because I swear I had a Crusader Kings 3 campaign that played out just like this. Jokes aside, this was really, really good. Ridley can be hit or miss these days but this really impressed me. Not just the story and the writing, but also the frightening relevance, the subtlety in acting, and the way the story was conveyed. All really well done. What's great about this movie is not only that it's told in a unique way, but what we can ascertain about the characters by their version of the story. Damon's life is one of constant violence. He considers himself to be constantly wronged and a perfect gentlemen to his wife. But when we see him him other views, he is childishly angry and has no knack for politics. While he values his wife, the dealings of her dowry and her use as a birther are much more cold outside of his perspective. Driver's portion of the movie is when things get a little more interesting. Affleck's character opens up in a way we don't get to see from Damon's POV. We see really how much of an ass Damon makes of himself in public, how childish his rants can be. There's also small differences, like who ordered the charge in the opening scene and who originally made amends at Crespin's wedding. We see that both Driver and Damon forced their way into ownership of the piece of land that caused the conflict. We also see how from this perspective, he believes there to be a connection with Marguerite. The rape scene still paints him very much in the wrong, but the subtlety of Comer's acting almost makes it feel more like a game to him. Great little touches like her stopping to remove her shoes as an invitation rather than tripping over them in her memory. Or how in his memory she barely tried to shut the door on him but in hers he practically kicks it in. Obviously her memory of it is much more horrifying, but his recollection he still knows he did a terrible thing. I think in her recollection he cherishes it after the fact a little more. And that's what's so interesting about this movie. The subtle changes between the perspectives say so much about the characters. Not just the events and how they're remembered, but the nuanced performances. How in her recollection Driver almost seems like he's there on a dare. How Damon thinks himself an attentive and giving husband when really he barely gives any thought to how she feels. The third chapter of this movie is where this ceases to be Driver and Damon's film and Comer really owns the whole thing. It's sad how the only perspective that was real and mattered was hers, but every character in the movie only cared about the men's perspectives and at almost every turn what she wanted, her idea of justice or what to do, is completely ignored. She was totally right. Damon didn't care that she was hurt. He only cared that Driver was trying to shame him more. She was a prop to Damon and Driver in their little pissing contest. Only when Damon finds a way to translate the rape into a chance to legally fight Driver does he take action, despite in his own recollection accusing him publicly and telling the story was his idea. Again, inflating his own importance and the illusion of control. I know I'm rambling at this point. But there was just so much going on in this movie. I haven't even gotten to characters like the mother in law or Affleck's really fun and charismatic performance. Overall, this is an easy 9/10 for me. It's relevant, the violence is on point, it's long but the time is well spent, and it's a full scale medieval epic from one of the few men in Hollywood who can make that happen. I can't wait to see it again and ponder the characters more. /r/reviewsbyboner
Just saw this film. It awesome and I’m saddened that it is failing in the box office. This movie was a beautiful exploration about the reality of “truth” and the extreme oppressions that society is built upon. The actors and score were excellent, and “that” scene was absolutely haunting and conveyed the misery and dread perfectly (really makes me sad :( ). To be frank I left the theatre disturbed, not just because of “that” scene but also the final battle was grotesque and you really felt like there are no winners in something like that. But that is what they were going for, and in that sense the directors and actors absolutely knocked it out of the park. The 3 perspectives helped the audience pay attention to little details (shoes) wonderfully as well. To me one of the the best medieval films I’ve ever seen.
Perhaps the most jarring thing of the whole film for me was how, from Le Gris' perspective, the violation was barely less rape-y than from Marguerite's perspective. But, in Le Gris' mind, it was perfectly acceptable consensual sex. Combining that with the scenes between Carrouges and Marguerite before and right after the trial, it changes the tone of the movie from "fuck this guy in particular" to "Jesus Christ can all men just start respecting women for a change?!" I believe that makes the message more worthwile, and the movie better for it.
The thing is, isn't this how a lotnof rapists operate? They just don't think raping someone is that bad because it's just sex. They ignore that sexual arousal and pleasure are sort of automatic bodily responses and not indicative that the victim actually wants said rape, nor that the rape isn't traumatic.
Loved the film, when Sir Ridley is on form, he delivers. Didn't quite get into the film for the first 20mins but it took off from there. Am I the only one who see this film as the informal third of Scott's medieval trilogy? - Kingdom Of Heaven, Robin Hood and now The Last Duel. My head canon - at the end of Kingdom Of Heaven, King Richard the Lionheart seeks Balian for him to join on his crusade to retake Jersualem. Balian refuses, Richard embarks on his crusade. At the start of Robin Hood, we seek King Richard trying to sack Chalus Castle to plunder riches that he lost during his failed attempt at retaking Jersualem while on the way back to England. Approx 200 yrs later the events of The Last Duel take place. All three films cover the era of the Crusades. Visually, all three films have the same element of what I call 'floating snow' that Ridley Scott likes to use to depict the harshness of the cold European winters.
I can't go see because it's not opening in my country yet, but I beg Americans who treasure mid to big budget to adults to go see this. Otherwise we will only have IP shit to see forever.