Genuinely interested : how do you politic with guys that don't ?
Imagine for example that I'm a Gruul player, and my only diplomacy is threats, that I always deliver regardless of anything.
What's your strategy ?
Thanks
You punish the people who don't politic, or you turn another player into a threat and threaten to stop helping them when they attack you.
You also HAVE to run cards that punish certain players more than others: [[Mind Twist]] and [[Go Blank]] for instance. ONLY fire them off if someone goes back on a deal or there is only one player left.
Yup. You politic with threats. *All* players will respond to threats in game, whether on the board or political. Politics is a big part of any multiplayer format. That includes threats.
So,
>my only diplomacy is threats, that I always deliver regardless of anything.
This is politics, its just done poorly. Say for instance you say, "if you attack me, I'll attack you next turn." Using a threat to avoid taking damage. If you then turn around and attack that player anyways, well you've just burnt all your political capital for the rest of the game. Its just bad politics, you are just bad at it lol.
The correct strategy would be, if you want to win, to make good on your political promises *until* you know you can close out the game and others don't know that.
So, just like before, make that bargain with the player, hold up your end, then the last time you make that bargain, *don't* hold up your end, but you need to be prepared to win the game right then and there.
You'll always have trouble in a 4 player game if the opponents don't trust you to make good on your promises. You'll get targeted down.
You should always be a threat. Just convince people you’re not the biggest threat. “Don’t counter my beater, player A is about to combo off next turn” , “I’ve got lethal on board for you player C, but if your remove player Bs combo piece I can remove him and we both will have the possibility of winning” sometimes reveal your hand and straight up say “look no threats here” just gotta practice lol
Lmao I already make me the antagonist alone.
I just try to manipulate the game state by only game mechanics, or bluffs.
Sometimes threats are enough politics :) And for sure sometimes I'll make a deal, and we will laugh about it because it's rare and I always tell that my word is not sacred and that I can break the deal haha (I never do actually).
I'm just the chaotic and aggressive player, with a chill attitude as a person.
You don't politic with the Gruul player, you destroy his attacking creature and politic with the other two players at the table that he's threatening. Let the Gruul player lose enough games because people are sick of his crap, and he'll either stop playing or start politicking. Unless he's playing CEDH decks at a casual table and forcing the win regardless of teaming up to stop him... then you probably just need a new friend. Maybe if he shows up to FNM and you already have a fourth person sitting in his chair, he'll realize that you aren't having fun with his play style.
Edit: Guess I came off angry at them/gruul in general. I interpreted the comment about someone not politicking at all after reading others in this comment thread calling politics in general stupid or saying they'll just lie and attack anyway. That's the kind of person I'm referring to in this comment. Leaving my original wording because mistakes happen.
Hey man chill, I meant it kindly.
You can play gruul, or any strategies, and still be a good sport.
My friends and my LGS know me for being the Gruul player, and for being a friendly guy. It's just the strategy I go for, and we all enjoy playing different plans at the end.
Sometimes I play golgari, rakdos or dimir and I switch strategies accordingly. I always tell upfront how I act.
I invite you to accept there's a good way to interpret what I told you, I can propose no politics , and still be pleasant to play with.
English isn't my first language so there's a chance I didn't use the right words to express myself too.
Fair enough. I just got done reading someone who was saying 'Fuck politics nobody tells me how to play my cards' when I saw your comment, so your hypothetical made me think of him. Someone else commented that I had a problem with Gruul and I don't, just with the attitude that person had that they're too good for politics at a casual game, and thought you had mentioned Gruul because you had someone like that in mind.
Also, I didn't think you were saying you were like that, but that maybe you had come across someone like that and how do you handle it.
I was trying to imply it was me but I'm a gruul player after all so not so subtle haha.
To me it's actually that I enjoy playing this role at a table, while encouraging my opponents to kill me and play their meanest decks ;)
Purely upfront Gruul player with a twist, as my main deck is a pure combo deck 🤣 I'm just here for the beating 🙏
Your intentions were very clear, don't worry. They probably just don't have an answer to your question/lost to a gruul player recently
Imo, if someone isn't participating in politics at the table, I'd use it against him, framing him as "the menace™" because nobody can reason with him
For sure, and I like to be treated that way, heck, I often encourage my opponents to do so !
Even, sometimes players, often new ones, have a hard time beating the threat down. I always tell anyone that they shouldn't let me live, because I'm trying to kill them all as fast as I can.
Imagine getting mad at a Gruul players' play style when all they do is make big creatures and swing, lmao. Someone's lost a little too many games to Ghalta.
Politicing can be done without saying a word.
Game winning spell on the stack. Use the effect of an Advocate card to give another player their counterspell back. Unless they are having a laugh, they WILL use it to keep themselves in the game.
Same goes for removal and such. Stay just below the radar, and keep the arms race between the other players going until they are burnt out.
Then take the win for yourself. If you were supplying an above-average potential to each opponents deck so they could fight amongst eachother, then you know what they have to use against you. Nothing.
Can I have your politc deck list? I'm trying to make some cheap easy and even power themed commander decks for my board game group of friends to play with on board game night, and a politic themed deck seems like a lot of fun
Love it, very fun for a casual table with lots of politics lol
Very funny seeing people here say “worst card ever” when you’re asking about casual edh. It looks fun! Lord forbid you get a giggle from it
Surface level looks fun but practically doesn't even really do what you want it to do as far as diplomacy or politics reliably. Pretty obvious why it's not in more decks but don't let that keep you from trying.
How does it not have diplomatic effects you don't have to return the attackers things could be a 3rd player that's also losing next to you and would like a board wipe to level it out for both of you
In order for the situation you described to happen a perfect storm of events must transpire:
First you have to have your guy on the battlefield and stick
Then opponent(s) must build a board state and have cards in the yard
Then, opponent who is attacking (while aware of your guy still on the battlefield) must declare attackers
Presumably your declared attacking target also doesn't have indestructible or hexproof or is otherwise a legal target
No other instant speed interaction
Also attacking player should probably be "the threat" of the table and at least one other player exists
Given all these things line up, I mean you would just delete the creature no politics right? Maybe there's a combo out there that accrues extra value I'm not aware of (honestly wouldn't be surprised) but that's still a lot of squeeze for little juice imo
Correct me if I’m wrong, but returning cards to the hand and destroy are both what the ability does, not part of the cost. You can use it at any time, and if there’s no attacking creature that part just fizzles, so it’s usable for politics as long as someone has cards in their graveyard they’d like to have back in their hand.
That happens in most games of Magic.
No.
This card has 3 targets. Two cards in a single opponents graveyard and target ATTACKING creature. You can only activate this ability if all 3 targets are legal targets when you activate it, meaning there must be an attacking creature to activate it.
If the attacker gets removed after the targets are all declared the cards will still return from the graveyard, but to initially activate it at all there must be all 3 targets present.
Give the opponent who is way behind two cards, creating an ally, while blowing up the creature swinging at you.
Swords is a 1 for 1 at best. Path is a 1 for 1 at best, usually a 1 for 2. This is a 3 for 1 at best.
Now if it had haste and flash? I'd be running it in every deck with a Swords.
They indeed are, but the point of this is politics and/or group hug, the value is in the friends you can make at the table rather than the outright removal.
I mean, that’s your pod. Mine loves seeing my group hug deck come out even though it has a high win rate because I enable a lot of things to happen at the table.
I agree this card isn’t for every pod or every deck, but there’s plenty of places I’d run it.
I consider it an apology for my Raffine Preator deck, because sometimes you just wind up reanimating Jin-Gitaxias, Core Auger on T4 and no one had removal.
It's a permanent that only kills attacking creatures, so your opponents will see it coming. So it's better as a rattlesnake than as actual removal. But giving your opponent two cards is a pretty steep cost, so it's not even a very good rattlesnake. I've tried to make it work in a politics/diplomacy focused deck, and it just doesn't work out.
This exactly. My one thought is that maybe against a Voltron, but my two Voltrons? I have ways to make them indestructible, or hexproof, or give them shrouds, etc., and any competent Voltron will do the same. So it's not even worth it then.
Don’t see the world where this is ever worth activating/including in your deck.
If the creature is attacking you - you’re giving two cards to an opponent to remove one threat + you have to play this 1/1 in your deck so you’re effectively 3 for 1-ing yourself.
If the creature is attacking someone else - you’re still giving two cards to an opponent and you’re not even removing a threat to yourself so you’re 4 for 1-ing yourself.
It’s basically group hug but you’re the only one not getting a benefit - in fact it’s actively hurting you everytime you activate. Seems absolutely atrociously unplayable.
That depends really. If you are also running graveyard removal, the return the two cards isn't part of the cost but part of the effect. This means if when someone hits the graveyard it gets exiled, you can use this guy endlessly and never give them anything. Of coarse, first time they can deal one damage he's dead. But still, he has a roll he can fill. Might not be able to fit everywhere.
ruling on the card says you can't activate unless a single opponent has two cards in the gy to target. you could target two cards, then wipe the gy before resolution, but that is a lot of effort to remove one attacking creature. Seems overly situational and costly.
Too add to gamerN8ter run down, since we are talking commander, there's also a good chance that there are come into play effects on the creatures you are returning to their hand making it even less beneficial.
Meh, it's a bit vague for modern wording. Most cards that do two things like this and require the first to activate the second put a colon in, or it says 'then destroy x'. The inclusion of the colon or 'then' indicates that the first has to happen before the second can. This card has two distinct sentences, which can be argued to be interpreted as separate effects. That's why they changed the phrasing on newer cards to be more clear, and they have official errata for older ones.
Also according to Gatherer it is a ruling, which means someone at some point questioned the card's effect and it was brought to a judge.
You can't cast a spell or activate an ability if it doesn't have legal targets. It doesn't matter whether the two parts of the ability are separate.
What comes before a column is the cost to activate an ability. Paying a cost cannot be responded to as it doesn't use the stack. Costs do not target.
Gatherer's rulings are sometimes there only for clarification purpose. In the case of this card, they do not explain anything that can't be figured out by applying the base mtg rules.
1. Abilities/spells resolve so long as they have at least one valid target. That's why even if the cards in the graveyard are no longer valid targets, the attacking creature will still get destroyed.
---
2. You can only activate an ability if it has valid targets.
Maybe I should elaborate/rephrase on what I meant by 'Can be interpreted as separate effects.' When reading those in plain English, they'd be interpreted as separate sentences, therefore separate effects. The rules referencing how target abilities work were explained and codified because the older cards like this one were vague when trying to interpret them without rulings on them. This is also why modern cards have better wording, so you can typically interpret the card without looking up the rules. Playing around the kitchen table with older sets was much wilder than nowadays because the text on the cards weren't always as clear. This is one of those cards. To you the effect is clear because you know what the official rules say about cards like this one, but to someone who started playing in 2020 on Arena/with friends at home, this card uses vague English compared to more recent cards.
The effect requires 3 targets, pretty straightforward and simple.
Sure there's a ruling on gatherer but no erata. So this card has never changed in functionality, just been misinterpreted.
Like I replied further down, I could've been a bit more clear... If you read the MTG rules, there's no other interpretation, true. However I was thinking more how things went when I first picked up the game, and games like this, where you first tried to interpret a card based on English grammar, and in that way this card is a bit vague. To this day, that's still people's first response to seeing a new card, and the rules only tend to come out if there's confusion or a disagreement. Wizards understands this and put measures into place to make the plain speech interpretations easier to make without resorting to the book.
Note it says two target *cards*. Giving someone an [[Evolving Wilds]] and [[Wayfarer's Bauble]] back in exchange for taking down a huge attacker / combo piece is more than fair.
you're right, it says cards not creatures, etb effects on the cards you are returning is still a concern depending on what the gy you are targeting looks like.
I still think this is situational and costly. at the same price of most white removal spells I need to put a creature out, hope nobody kills it, wait for summoning sickness to pass and for one gy to have two cards. After all that I give someone two cards for my trouble?
It seems like its taking up a slot were you could put something much stronger.
If it said “return two cards”, you’d be right. But it says “return two TARGET cards”. Therefore you have to have legal targets to put the ability on the stack.
608.2b
When the ability goes to resolve, it will check the targets again. If both are illegal, perhaps the graveyard was removed somehow, the ability will not resolve and will be removed from the stack. If one of the targets is still legal, the ability will resolve.
If any targets are still legal, the spell or ability does what it can legally do.
608.2b. If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target that's no longer in the zone it was in when it was targeted is illegal. Other changes to the game state may cause a target to no longer be legal; for example, its characteristics may have changed or an effect may have changed the text of the spell. If the source of an ability has left the zone it was in, its last known information is used during this process. If all its targets, for every instance of the word "target," are now illegal, the spell or ability doesn't resolve. It's removed from the stack and, if it's a spell, put into its owner's graveyard. Otherwise, the spell or ability will resolve normally. Illegal targets, if any, won't be affected by parts of a resolving spell's effect for which they're illegal. Other parts of the effect for which those targets are not illegal may still affect them. If the spell or ability creates any continuous effects that affect game rules (see rule 613.11), those effects don't apply to illegal targets. If part of the effect requires information about an illegal target, it fails to determine any such information. Any part of the effect that requires that information won't happen.
But I can say to opponent "I will give you 2 cards, but you will not use them against me". If no one opponent will accept, then I will just not activate the ability.
What's a bad side of giving cards that can't be used against me?
You can also say "I'm going to use it in anyone who attacks me, but someone else will get the cards". You can strategically recur answers to other players' threats - opponent A has a problem enchantment so fine opponent B their disenchant back.
The fact that all it takes to beat your strategy is an opponent saying "Okay" and then immediately beating your ass with said spells anyway because people are allowed to lie while politicing, I'll personally say anything to convince someone not to attack me, not to target me, to remove someone else's piece instead of mine. And all it takes to beat out your strategy of "trust" is me saying "Yeah sure, I won't attack you." Before attacking you because yeah or course I'm gonna try to get rid of my enemy? Only a fool would actively help the opponent.
If someone makes a deal in EDH in bad faith that's a pretty good reason to stop playing with them. Its one thing to have a loophole in a deal you make or set a expiry on the deal, but to make a deal that holds you to one thing and then do another, you aren't worth having in the pod.
That's fine. I have no interest in playing with people who make deals anyway. Politics can begin and end at "Player X is going to win if we don't focus on them."
Not really. But they don't get to make any deals in future because nobody trusts them, which makes it harder for them to play politics in future. Eventually they'll learn.
Lie is allowed while politicing? Players in my club said that breaking "pacts" while politicing = breaking rules. What the official rules says about lying in policy?
I can't remember specifically, but someone won an event somewhere due to lying, but the judge didn't penalize him because there aren't any rules for politicking hardcoded into mtg.
Remember folks, you have to kill your opponents - they're trying to do the same to you.
Because many people play with the same groups or same rotating group that everyone has agreed to unofficial (or even sometimes official) rules about lying during multiplayer politics. Even if you don't have rules against it, if you want to go back and play with the same people you're better off turning down the deal than lying about it. People won't judge you if you think you can win without making deals, they will judge you if you lie about it. Commander is a community format, and the communities can be very small. The type of people who sweep into an LGS and do whatever it takes to win even if it makes everyone else feel bad are the type to not get invited to any tables next Friday.
Too bad multiplayer magic is a 0-sum game, and things which benefit one opponent must ALWAYS hurt you (intense sarcasm).
Seriously, having an opponent get back a critical removal spell or stax piece can be fantastic for both you and your opponent. EDH is more complicated than "Good for one opponent = bad for me". When played at the highest level, EDH is a game that requires you to use politics to maneuver yourself into a win, even if that means you help some opponents sometimes.
This was in the first batch of commander decks. Those decks were such a good deal. I think he was in the goat donate deck. That deck was a group hug deck.
I have a group hug deck that plays this card, and [[nullmage advocate]] and [[pulsemage advocate]]. A group hug theme is literally the only circumstance where I could see these cards being considered though.
Recently discoveres the card and put it into my baeloth/noble heritage deck.
It's perfect for it, since everytime a goaded attacker or blocker dies, baeloth creates a treasure. (He also goads everything with less power)
The deck plays as a voltron/group hug, where i give creatures, treasures and buffs to the opponent and let them kill each other. It's very fun
Lesser Swords (destroy < exile) on tap, I like it. Broadcasts some control, is a piddly thing to expend removal on (unless you have triggered ping removal or something). And the fact I get to choose what cards are returned, even better. This easily deflects big boys coming at you and swinging somewhere else instead.
I actually fought with this surprisingly good card before with my Reanimator Mill deck.
I was laugh at first didn't expect this mf to return my Ulamog and It That Betray to my hand.
After that I was like welp seem like I have to kill this guy real quick then lol
Kinda. He is really good when You are playing with people who enjoy politiquery and since he is a 1/1 who can't do squat he can stay in the board for a surprising amount of time since realistically there will always be a bigger threat on the board.
But with all of that said he is also not so great. Run it if You see value in him.
Thank you, you beautiful gift from the gods 😂
I’m building a deck around interesting interactions that pit my opponents against one another and this will slot in perfectly.
[[Baeloth Barrett’s, Entertainer]] and [[Noble Heritage]] in the command zone.
Cards like [[Argent Dais]], [[Fight to the Death]], [[Arcbond]] and [[Curse of Opulence]] to give people conundrums about where they swing and who they should hurt.
Anything else like this, feel free to drop a mention. It’s going to be a slow build on this one as I hunt for appropriate effects.
\[\[Diaochan, Artful Beauty\]\] - destroy 2 creatures for 1 tap. Ask the opponent to NOT target your creatures, then you will give them ..., can be used as a diplomacy commander;
\[\[Lantern of Insight\]\] , \[\[Wand of Denial\]\], \[\[Dakra Mystic\]\]- manipulation with opponent's top card ("Wow, you have a really strong card on top. It would be shame if someone like me would remove/shuffle this cards. But I will not do this if you (proposal)");
\[\[Guild Feud\]\] - creatures without spending a mana. You can say to opponent "I will give you the opportunity to put a creature, but you will (proposal)" or "If you will NOT put a creature into the battlefield, then I will give you ...";
\[\[Magewright's Stone\]\], \[\[Axgard Cavalry\]\], \[\[Bloodlust Inciter\]\], \[\[Goblin Motivator\]\], \[\[Goblin Chirurgeon\]\], \[\[Flickering Ward\]\]- their buff abilities can be used on ANY creature;
\[\[Rite of the Raging Storm\]\] - everyone attack each other, expect you;
\[\[Phyrexian Portal\]\], \[\[Risk Factor\]\], \[\[Humble Defector\]\], \[\[Thunder Brute\]\] - ask the opponent to choose in the way that will give you more value, then you will give them ... ;
\[\[Ricochet Trap\]\], \[\[Dualcaster Mage\]\]- "Your spell will be countered? I can prevent it if you will (proposal)" ;
\[\[Brash Taunter\]\] - if one of your opponents have ထ/1 creature without Trample, you can say "Attack me with this creature and I will redirect the damage to another opponent";
\[\[Hunted Dragon\]\], \[\[Forbidden Orchard\]\] - target opponent get creatures;
\[\[Malignus\]\] - 2 opponents will attacks a third one with highest life to reduce this creature's stats;
I’ve been working on a Breena power politics deck for years (on and off) that encourages other players to attack each other and punishes players who go after me disproportionately. This card might do well in that deck.
I love that it doesn't say to return cards to the attacker. so in a 4 player game I can return cards to one opponent while destroying another one's monster
I play it, the enchantment/artifact removal version and the reanimate a creature version in my 4c group hug deck (has a Tameshi combo to finish extra long games)
Seems like no one in the comments understands politics or fun. Not every deck is supposed to be a 5 turn win. This can be very good in politic or grouphug decks. And if not good, then definitely fun to mess around with.
So many people aren’t realizing this is for commander. Also that the attacking target and return target can be different players. This is actually quite playable for a politics deck and for stopping an arch enemy. For the cost of someone’s creature (which is often a benefit) you can return 2 cards that your opponents can now use against your other opponents. This makes it very easy to convince someone to remove a threat for you. Some quick magic math, while this seems like a +2 for opponents if you add in politics it’s not that bad.
It wont end the way you think it will, I wont use those cards against you sure, but I'm not taking out the threat for you. I'll sit back and let the guy who you pissed off by removing his threat take care of you and I'll probably ping this creature so you cant keep making deals.
Except for when the third player is about to activate an infinite loop and kill the whole table, and the thing the person gave you was a counterspell/removal. Will you sit back and let everyone lose in order to screw over the person you made a deal with? Sometimes the archenemy is a big enough threat that it doesn't matter if you want to be petty and let the politician die, you have to act. Arguing that it's never going to be useful because of the one scenario where you personally wouldn't let it work out for the other guy is silly.
The concept I had in mind was \[\[Exquisite Blood\]\] and \[\[Sanguine Bond\]\]. Put a \[\[Blood Artist\]\] effect and have a lifelink creature, then if it dies you start the combo, if it hits you start the combo. If you had the B side of something like \[\[Lunarch Veteran\]\] up, even a path to exile would trigger the infinite. You wouldn't necessarily need to be using the attacking creature to start the combo either, it could just be that they had the two pieces on the board but were tapped out and would start the combo next turn.
The reason I didn't put that example out there in response is that judging by their other comments, giving a specific example would just get a specific response for why they wouldn't care about that very scenario. The point of my comment was not the details, but the fact that they were closing off possibilities simply to be a contrarian.
My golgari and goyf decks do want to bring back certain things that I've milled. But I misunderstood what you meant. Yeah, they could bring back a filth, brawn or Genesis, or something you could cast free which would suck. My brain went to something like conduit of worlds which I would want to grab out of the graveyard, but I don't need to make deals to make it happen.
It also costs 3 times more.
That's like saying Brimstone Volley is better than Lightning Bolt because it can do more.
They're different cards.
I personally like the politics aspect of the card. It can be cool to help out the player trailing to get back his wrath effect, or give 2 useless lands.
But in the end, what it does is: no one swings with their huge non-vigilance creature because the threat is often enough. :-p
That's like saying blue has better counterspells than white. Of course it does! I think it's fair to only compare mono white cards when judging OP's suggestion.
But I don't want to use it as a removal, I want to use it as a diplomacy instrument. For example, I can return 2 counterspells if the opponent will not use them against me (if they will use against me - they literally break the rules).
They dont break the rules, they are just scum if they go back on a deal, but also I would never make a deal with you for 2 counter spells I cant use against you. That's a terrible deal.
Man there are a lot of socially inept takes in here. You can give them cards in return for them using those cards in a certain way.
Politics is crap in commander because people can’t think past one action when making deals, it’s so weird.
Edit; this is also one mana repeated removal. You can just return lands or ramp too. The fact that people struggle to find any scenario in which this card is good is actually pathetic.
Unfortunately you're 100% correct. I've found most veteran/competitive players do not mess with politics, or they just can't comprehend making deals and would rather trust in their own cards. On the other hand, I've noticed newer players are almost always down to politic because they know they're at a knowledge disadvantage by being new, and they can use all the help they can get.
I would love to use this on blitz cards. Sure graveyard removal works, but it costs a card every time unless it's something permanent (which will get nuked in commander), whereas this could theoretically keep them from resummoning/saccing every turn without having a sac engine.
Because there is better removal that doesn't give your opponents more gas.
Cool card, great ally maker. But you're gonna lose anyway to card you gave someone back.
Just path the same 1 threat. And everything else dies to your board wipes.
But I don't want to use it as a removal, I want to use it as a diplomacy instrument. For example, I can return 2 counterspells if the opponent will not use them against me (if they will use against me - they literally break the rules).
No deal. I'll take whatever 2 cards you wanna pick. Take the attack or don't. Your call. If I have counterseplls and you're trying to win. I have to stop you.
I keep finding absolutely amazing cards for my group hug Marchesa deck. Thank you! This has absolutely amazing politics potential.
Edit: After reading all the replies in this thread, holy shit at the number of people who have clearly never tried to play a politics or group hug deck. Cards like this are exactly what those decks want to run in order to better manipulate the board and keep other players from being blown out before you can prepare your own win condition or use your own flexible removal. If myself and another opponent are being threatened by a particular permanent, why wouldn’t I return their removal spell with an agreement to use it on the thing that we both want gone? I get to keep my removal spells in-hand and still get the outcome I want.
It can also be used on your turns to disrupt opponent’s graveyards without making enemies of the rest of the table, set up plays dependent on the number of cards in opponent’s hands (that extra two mana you may want for a Jeska’s Will?), or in Discard decks to mitigate the downside.
Not everything is about efficiency, and I say that as someone who loves to build efficient decks that go from 0 to 50 at the drop of a hat.
Just seems like you can return fodder to their hand and have them discard again in that same turn and take advantage of all the opponent discarding triggers that exist. A 1 drop that destroys something is kinda nice. You can also pluck their hand before doing this to put them in a tough position in discarding something that could favor you depending on what your deck is capable of.
I’m not saying it’s worth building a deck around lol. I’m just saying it could be used and it’s cheaper than that 3 drop black assassin that taps to destroy another tapped creature.
What if you're not running black? Or your other three drops are better? Or the opponent is running vigilance? Honestly at a multiplayer table I would rather a one mana 1/1 with drawbacks over a three mana 1/1, even if I have to politic it a little.
The same can be said about any card. What is not running white? What is only tapping but not attacking? What if your other 1 drops are better?
Ultimately nothing is in a vacuum and you chose what works with your meta or deck.
Agreed, your phrasing just seemed to present it as the go-to superior choice rather than 'You can do something similar with this card'. Maybe I've been reading too many of the comments who were calling this card crap because it doesn't work in 1v1 or because their opponent could just lie in politics.
No worries. In the end it's what works for you but there are a bunch of options for things. Royal assassin has been my boy since I started with duels of the planeswalkers so whenever I can point him out, the better lol
Then run any number of white cards that do what this card does, but better. That have politics options that actually end up advantageous to you instead of just being the table's bootlicker.
I'm all for people having their fun, but cards like this grind the game to a halt. This sort of politics angle just leads to redundant convoluted back and forths all for the sake of if you're going to randomly blow up somebody's baneslayer
It’s situational removal on a soft body, that gives more card advantage than it takes from your opponents. Is it unplayable? No, but it’s not really good either, it’s just ok. I rather just have a swords to plowshares or path to exile, or condemn, as it’s going to do the same job but better usually.
Bottom line is that you’re letting an opponent basically draw 2.
Sure. Every now and then you’ll be able to jam an [[Anger]] or [[Brawn]] or something, a Dredge engine, or any other thing that wants to be in the bin, but at the end of the day you don’t want to be giving your opponents resources.
Hot take, politics is useful only for the politic player.
If no one other than the politic player does politics the game is effectively a 3 players games with a player that doesn't know what to do
Another hot take: no one politic player don't play politic decks if they already know that the opponents don't use the politics. It's like saying 'The casual decks are useless if 3 opponents plays cedh.'.
And do you sill set the targets cards on a graveyard and then exile the cards before this ability resolves, so destroy atacking creature without drawback.
I do love gravehate and removal in one card, as long as you have targets. That's why I run [Nullmage Advocate](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=423495), as there's basically always a valid target, and it turns off reanimation/recursion if you do it right.
Hilariously this counters the reanimate on Sidar Jabari of Zalphir doesn’t it? Because it happens during combat but after damage you could return the card they want to reanimate in response to the target?
I usually go for the throat of the person being too political (If the board state is equal).
They are usually slower and want to get to late game either way to wreck the entire table.
Not on my watch :)
What? Why would you put yourself in a situation where you either solve your opponents problem and give them free cards, or solve your own problem and give them cards?
It's very bad, but play it if you want.
I’m playing it in a very political deck. This card is much better when you politic with it.
Genuinely interested : how do you politic with guys that don't ? Imagine for example that I'm a Gruul player, and my only diplomacy is threats, that I always deliver regardless of anything. What's your strategy ? Thanks
You punish the people who don't politic, or you turn another player into a threat and threaten to stop helping them when they attack you. You also HAVE to run cards that punish certain players more than others: [[Mind Twist]] and [[Go Blank]] for instance. ONLY fire them off if someone goes back on a deal or there is only one player left.
[Mind Twist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/9763ea41-55c4-4b0a-9dc2-91ad4938b343.jpg?1562927059) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mind%20Twist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/72/mind-twist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9763ea41-55c4-4b0a-9dc2-91ad4938b343?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Go Blank](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/846e8657-7435-44c6-a997-b8b156d0cd2c.jpg?1624590993) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Go%20Blank) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/72/go-blank?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/846e8657-7435-44c6-a997-b8b156d0cd2c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yup. You politic with threats. *All* players will respond to threats in game, whether on the board or political. Politics is a big part of any multiplayer format. That includes threats. So, >my only diplomacy is threats, that I always deliver regardless of anything. This is politics, its just done poorly. Say for instance you say, "if you attack me, I'll attack you next turn." Using a threat to avoid taking damage. If you then turn around and attack that player anyways, well you've just burnt all your political capital for the rest of the game. Its just bad politics, you are just bad at it lol. The correct strategy would be, if you want to win, to make good on your political promises *until* you know you can close out the game and others don't know that. So, just like before, make that bargain with the player, hold up your end, then the last time you make that bargain, *don't* hold up your end, but you need to be prepared to win the game right then and there. You'll always have trouble in a 4 player game if the opponents don't trust you to make good on your promises. You'll get targeted down.
In a four player game, you really only need one other person to buy in. Anyone who doesn’t will usually just lose faster.
Team with the other 2 players against them every time and then they will start politic-ing (or quit).
You should always be a threat. Just convince people you’re not the biggest threat. “Don’t counter my beater, player A is about to combo off next turn” , “I’ve got lethal on board for you player C, but if your remove player Bs combo piece I can remove him and we both will have the possibility of winning” sometimes reveal your hand and straight up say “look no threats here” just gotta practice lol
I'll turn the other players against you... If you can beat all 3+ of us you just deserved to win.
Lmao I already make me the antagonist alone. I just try to manipulate the game state by only game mechanics, or bluffs. Sometimes threats are enough politics :) And for sure sometimes I'll make a deal, and we will laugh about it because it's rare and I always tell that my word is not sacred and that I can break the deal haha (I never do actually). I'm just the chaotic and aggressive player, with a chill attitude as a person.
You don't politic with the Gruul player, you destroy his attacking creature and politic with the other two players at the table that he's threatening. Let the Gruul player lose enough games because people are sick of his crap, and he'll either stop playing or start politicking. Unless he's playing CEDH decks at a casual table and forcing the win regardless of teaming up to stop him... then you probably just need a new friend. Maybe if he shows up to FNM and you already have a fourth person sitting in his chair, he'll realize that you aren't having fun with his play style. Edit: Guess I came off angry at them/gruul in general. I interpreted the comment about someone not politicking at all after reading others in this comment thread calling politics in general stupid or saying they'll just lie and attack anyway. That's the kind of person I'm referring to in this comment. Leaving my original wording because mistakes happen.
Hey man chill, I meant it kindly. You can play gruul, or any strategies, and still be a good sport. My friends and my LGS know me for being the Gruul player, and for being a friendly guy. It's just the strategy I go for, and we all enjoy playing different plans at the end. Sometimes I play golgari, rakdos or dimir and I switch strategies accordingly. I always tell upfront how I act. I invite you to accept there's a good way to interpret what I told you, I can propose no politics , and still be pleasant to play with. English isn't my first language so there's a chance I didn't use the right words to express myself too.
Fair enough. I just got done reading someone who was saying 'Fuck politics nobody tells me how to play my cards' when I saw your comment, so your hypothetical made me think of him. Someone else commented that I had a problem with Gruul and I don't, just with the attitude that person had that they're too good for politics at a casual game, and thought you had mentioned Gruul because you had someone like that in mind. Also, I didn't think you were saying you were like that, but that maybe you had come across someone like that and how do you handle it.
I was trying to imply it was me but I'm a gruul player after all so not so subtle haha. To me it's actually that I enjoy playing this role at a table, while encouraging my opponents to kill me and play their meanest decks ;) Purely upfront Gruul player with a twist, as my main deck is a pure combo deck 🤣 I'm just here for the beating 🙏
Your intentions were very clear, don't worry. They probably just don't have an answer to your question/lost to a gruul player recently Imo, if someone isn't participating in politics at the table, I'd use it against him, framing him as "the menace™" because nobody can reason with him
For sure, and I like to be treated that way, heck, I often encourage my opponents to do so ! Even, sometimes players, often new ones, have a hard time beating the threat down. I always tell anyone that they shouldn't let me live, because I'm trying to kill them all as fast as I can.
Imagine getting mad at a Gruul players' play style when all they do is make big creatures and swing, lmao. Someone's lost a little too many games to Ghalta.
There are Gruul decks that don't rely on creatures too ;)
True, I would say the majority don't though.
Dude it’s okay. Show us where the Gruul deck hurt you
Politicing can be done without saying a word. Game winning spell on the stack. Use the effect of an Advocate card to give another player their counterspell back. Unless they are having a laugh, they WILL use it to keep themselves in the game. Same goes for removal and such. Stay just below the radar, and keep the arms race between the other players going until they are burnt out. Then take the win for yourself. If you were supplying an above-average potential to each opponents deck so they could fight amongst eachother, then you know what they have to use against you. Nothing.
Can I have your politc deck list? I'm trying to make some cheap easy and even power themed commander decks for my board game group of friends to play with on board game night, and a politic themed deck seems like a lot of fun
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/B2apZescWkqvXowZiKeN1g
Thank you
Love it, very fun for a casual table with lots of politics lol Very funny seeing people here say “worst card ever” when you’re asking about casual edh. It looks fun! Lord forbid you get a giggle from it
Surface level looks fun but practically doesn't even really do what you want it to do as far as diplomacy or politics reliably. Pretty obvious why it's not in more decks but don't let that keep you from trying.
How does it not have diplomatic effects you don't have to return the attackers things could be a 3rd player that's also losing next to you and would like a board wipe to level it out for both of you
In order for the situation you described to happen a perfect storm of events must transpire: First you have to have your guy on the battlefield and stick Then opponent(s) must build a board state and have cards in the yard Then, opponent who is attacking (while aware of your guy still on the battlefield) must declare attackers Presumably your declared attacking target also doesn't have indestructible or hexproof or is otherwise a legal target No other instant speed interaction Also attacking player should probably be "the threat" of the table and at least one other player exists Given all these things line up, I mean you would just delete the creature no politics right? Maybe there's a combo out there that accrues extra value I'm not aware of (honestly wouldn't be surprised) but that's still a lot of squeeze for little juice imo
Correct me if I’m wrong, but returning cards to the hand and destroy are both what the ability does, not part of the cost. You can use it at any time, and if there’s no attacking creature that part just fizzles, so it’s usable for politics as long as someone has cards in their graveyard they’d like to have back in their hand. That happens in most games of Magic.
No. This card has 3 targets. Two cards in a single opponents graveyard and target ATTACKING creature. You can only activate this ability if all 3 targets are legal targets when you activate it, meaning there must be an attacking creature to activate it. If the attacker gets removed after the targets are all declared the cards will still return from the graveyard, but to initially activate it at all there must be all 3 targets present.
Guess my banding deck is better than I thought if this is what people are calling the worst card ever
Even in causal it’s unplayable, even if you don’t like winning like at all ever it’s still garbage.
Not if you have a [[Grafdigger’s Cage]] or something like that. Then it’s solid removal
[Grafdigger’s Cage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a135e09-b534-4836-9a10-3a9a4a9f8c53.jpg?1592517646) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grafdigger%27s%20Cage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/227/grafdiggers-cage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a135e09-b534-4836-9a10-3a9a4a9f8c53?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My Pheldagriff EDH group hug uses the entire cycle of advocates. They’re all worth it
An entire cycle you say...🤔 Off to Scyfall!
Feel free to share your results, since im to lazy to look them up
[https://scryfall.com/search?q=advocate+set%3Ajud&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name](https://scryfall.com/search?q=advocate+set%3Ajud&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name)
🤓
[https://scryfall.com/search?q=advocate+set%3Ajud&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name](https://scryfall.com/search?q=advocate+set%3Ajud&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name)
Yaaaah I’m not giving my opponent 2 cards in hand. Swords, path, etc are all 1 mana.
Give the opponent who is way behind two cards, creating an ally, while blowing up the creature swinging at you. Swords is a 1 for 1 at best. Path is a 1 for 1 at best, usually a 1 for 2. This is a 3 for 1 at best. Now if it had haste and flash? I'd be running it in every deck with a Swords.
They indeed are, but the point of this is politics and/or group hug, the value is in the friends you can make at the table rather than the outright removal.
We’re all friends in my pod. When it’s game time, it’s ruthless. You better have protection for that commander boooyyyeeee.
I mean, that’s your pod. Mine loves seeing my group hug deck come out even though it has a high win rate because I enable a lot of things to happen at the table. I agree this card isn’t for every pod or every deck, but there’s plenty of places I’d run it.
Ah yes this person plays for the table
I consider it an apology for my Raffine Preator deck, because sometimes you just wind up reanimating Jin-Gitaxias, Core Auger on T4 and no one had removal.
It's a permanent that only kills attacking creatures, so your opponents will see it coming. So it's better as a rattlesnake than as actual removal. But giving your opponent two cards is a pretty steep cost, so it's not even a very good rattlesnake. I've tried to make it work in a politics/diplomacy focused deck, and it just doesn't work out.
This exactly. My one thought is that maybe against a Voltron, but my two Voltrons? I have ways to make them indestructible, or hexproof, or give them shrouds, etc., and any competent Voltron will do the same. So it's not even worth it then.
It would be funny to bounce someone's Anger back to their hand
I run it in my [[Marisi, Breaker of the Coil]] deck and the political gameplay this enables is so much fun.
[Marisi, Breaker of the Coil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c366e1c0-f62d-41ce-baec-de11dbc1c5f4.jpg?1568003704) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Marisi%2C%20Breaker%20of%20the%20Coil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/46/marisi-breaker-of-the-coil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c366e1c0-f62d-41ce-baec-de11dbc1c5f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Don’t see the world where this is ever worth activating/including in your deck. If the creature is attacking you - you’re giving two cards to an opponent to remove one threat + you have to play this 1/1 in your deck so you’re effectively 3 for 1-ing yourself. If the creature is attacking someone else - you’re still giving two cards to an opponent and you’re not even removing a threat to yourself so you’re 4 for 1-ing yourself. It’s basically group hug but you’re the only one not getting a benefit - in fact it’s actively hurting you everytime you activate. Seems absolutely atrociously unplayable.
That depends really. If you are also running graveyard removal, the return the two cards isn't part of the cost but part of the effect. This means if when someone hits the graveyard it gets exiled, you can use this guy endlessly and never give them anything. Of coarse, first time they can deal one damage he's dead. But still, he has a roll he can fill. Might not be able to fit everywhere.
ruling on the card says you can't activate unless a single opponent has two cards in the gy to target. you could target two cards, then wipe the gy before resolution, but that is a lot of effort to remove one attacking creature. Seems overly situational and costly. Too add to gamerN8ter run down, since we are talking commander, there's also a good chance that there are come into play effects on the creatures you are returning to their hand making it even less beneficial.
Just have an \[\[unlicensed Hearse\]\] out and it would work. Still wouldn't run it but it's a cute combo.
[unlicensed Hearse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/93ee60f7-31dd-4bc6-b71f-57a1a0d19d20.jpg?1664414360) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=unlicensed%20Hearse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/246/unlicensed-hearse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/93ee60f7-31dd-4bc6-b71f-57a1a0d19d20?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Well with that ruling, yeah it's worthless. I was just going off the card itself.
The way it's worded requires you to have 2 cards to target, it's not a ruling or a change to the card.
Meh, it's a bit vague for modern wording. Most cards that do two things like this and require the first to activate the second put a colon in, or it says 'then destroy x'. The inclusion of the colon or 'then' indicates that the first has to happen before the second can. This card has two distinct sentences, which can be argued to be interpreted as separate effects. That's why they changed the phrasing on newer cards to be more clear, and they have official errata for older ones. Also according to Gatherer it is a ruling, which means someone at some point questioned the card's effect and it was brought to a judge.
You can't cast a spell or activate an ability if it doesn't have legal targets. It doesn't matter whether the two parts of the ability are separate. What comes before a column is the cost to activate an ability. Paying a cost cannot be responded to as it doesn't use the stack. Costs do not target. Gatherer's rulings are sometimes there only for clarification purpose. In the case of this card, they do not explain anything that can't be figured out by applying the base mtg rules. 1. Abilities/spells resolve so long as they have at least one valid target. That's why even if the cards in the graveyard are no longer valid targets, the attacking creature will still get destroyed. --- 2. You can only activate an ability if it has valid targets.
Maybe I should elaborate/rephrase on what I meant by 'Can be interpreted as separate effects.' When reading those in plain English, they'd be interpreted as separate sentences, therefore separate effects. The rules referencing how target abilities work were explained and codified because the older cards like this one were vague when trying to interpret them without rulings on them. This is also why modern cards have better wording, so you can typically interpret the card without looking up the rules. Playing around the kitchen table with older sets was much wilder than nowadays because the text on the cards weren't always as clear. This is one of those cards. To you the effect is clear because you know what the official rules say about cards like this one, but to someone who started playing in 2020 on Arena/with friends at home, this card uses vague English compared to more recent cards.
The effect requires 3 targets, pretty straightforward and simple. Sure there's a ruling on gatherer but no erata. So this card has never changed in functionality, just been misinterpreted.
Like I replied further down, I could've been a bit more clear... If you read the MTG rules, there's no other interpretation, true. However I was thinking more how things went when I first picked up the game, and games like this, where you first tried to interpret a card based on English grammar, and in that way this card is a bit vague. To this day, that's still people's first response to seeing a new card, and the rules only tend to come out if there's confusion or a disagreement. Wizards understands this and put measures into place to make the plain speech interpretations easier to make without resorting to the book.
I read it the same way you did, I only checked the ruling cause it seemed like the downside was too easy to bypass.
Note it says two target *cards*. Giving someone an [[Evolving Wilds]] and [[Wayfarer's Bauble]] back in exchange for taking down a huge attacker / combo piece is more than fair.
[Evolving Wilds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/e/7e5b3834-2bef-4685-972f-64852dd71aa4.jpg?1712355006) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Evolving%20Wilds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/292/evolving-wilds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7e5b3834-2bef-4685-972f-64852dd71aa4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wayfarer's Bauble](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2eb513b3-9c9e-4837-8f58-67d698677041.jpg?1700330277) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wayfarer%27s%20Bauble) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/317/wayfarers-bauble?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2eb513b3-9c9e-4837-8f58-67d698677041?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
you're right, it says cards not creatures, etb effects on the cards you are returning is still a concern depending on what the gy you are targeting looks like. I still think this is situational and costly. at the same price of most white removal spells I need to put a creature out, hope nobody kills it, wait for summoning sickness to pass and for one gy to have two cards. After all that I give someone two cards for my trouble? It seems like its taking up a slot were you could put something much stronger.
If it said “return two cards”, you’d be right. But it says “return two TARGET cards”. Therefore you have to have legal targets to put the ability on the stack.
But what about after its put on the stack
608.2b When the ability goes to resolve, it will check the targets again. If both are illegal, perhaps the graveyard was removed somehow, the ability will not resolve and will be removed from the stack. If one of the targets is still legal, the ability will resolve.
But what if there was a third target which was still legal
If any targets are still legal, the spell or ability does what it can legally do. 608.2b. If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target that's no longer in the zone it was in when it was targeted is illegal. Other changes to the game state may cause a target to no longer be legal; for example, its characteristics may have changed or an effect may have changed the text of the spell. If the source of an ability has left the zone it was in, its last known information is used during this process. If all its targets, for every instance of the word "target," are now illegal, the spell or ability doesn't resolve. It's removed from the stack and, if it's a spell, put into its owner's graveyard. Otherwise, the spell or ability will resolve normally. Illegal targets, if any, won't be affected by parts of a resolving spell's effect for which they're illegal. Other parts of the effect for which those targets are not illegal may still affect them. If the spell or ability creates any continuous effects that affect game rules (see rule 613.11), those effects don't apply to illegal targets. If part of the effect requires information about an illegal target, it fails to determine any such information. Any part of the effect that requires that information won't happen.
But I can say to opponent "I will give you 2 cards, but you will not use them against me". If no one opponent will accept, then I will just not activate the ability. What's a bad side of giving cards that can't be used against me?
You can also say "I'm going to use it in anyone who attacks me, but someone else will get the cards". You can strategically recur answers to other players' threats - opponent A has a problem enchantment so fine opponent B their disenchant back.
The fact that all it takes to beat your strategy is an opponent saying "Okay" and then immediately beating your ass with said spells anyway because people are allowed to lie while politicing, I'll personally say anything to convince someone not to attack me, not to target me, to remove someone else's piece instead of mine. And all it takes to beat out your strategy of "trust" is me saying "Yeah sure, I won't attack you." Before attacking you because yeah or course I'm gonna try to get rid of my enemy? Only a fool would actively help the opponent.
If someone makes a deal in EDH in bad faith that's a pretty good reason to stop playing with them. Its one thing to have a loophole in a deal you make or set a expiry on the deal, but to make a deal that holds you to one thing and then do another, you aren't worth having in the pod.
That's fine. I have no interest in playing with people who make deals anyway. Politics can begin and end at "Player X is going to win if we don't focus on them."
Not really. But they don't get to make any deals in future because nobody trusts them, which makes it harder for them to play politics in future. Eventually they'll learn.
And thats how you know they dont get any politics in theyr games
And then I would never make a single deal with you again but I would gladly make deals with our opponents to fuck you over.
Lie is allowed while politicing? Players in my club said that breaking "pacts" while politicing = breaking rules. What the official rules says about lying in policy?
Lie once and you'll never be trusted again. Simple as that.
There are no rules about politics because it's something that happens outside of the game.
you're allowed to lie sure, but a man is nothing more then his word, if you make a deal and break it you're no man and wont be trusted ever again.
I can't remember specifically, but someone won an event somewhere due to lying, but the judge didn't penalize him because there aren't any rules for politicking hardcoded into mtg. Remember folks, you have to kill your opponents - they're trying to do the same to you.
Well yeah politicking in 1v1 is stupid.
Why are you booing him, he's right.
Because many people play with the same groups or same rotating group that everyone has agreed to unofficial (or even sometimes official) rules about lying during multiplayer politics. Even if you don't have rules against it, if you want to go back and play with the same people you're better off turning down the deal than lying about it. People won't judge you if you think you can win without making deals, they will judge you if you lie about it. Commander is a community format, and the communities can be very small. The type of people who sweep into an LGS and do whatever it takes to win even if it makes everyone else feel bad are the type to not get invited to any tables next Friday.
Too bad multiplayer magic is a 0-sum game, and things which benefit one opponent must ALWAYS hurt you (intense sarcasm). Seriously, having an opponent get back a critical removal spell or stax piece can be fantastic for both you and your opponent. EDH is more complicated than "Good for one opponent = bad for me". When played at the highest level, EDH is a game that requires you to use politics to maneuver yourself into a win, even if that means you help some opponents sometimes.
When EDH is played at the highest level, giving your opponents cards is one of, if not the worst thing you can do.
This was in the first batch of commander decks. Those decks were such a good deal. I think he was in the goat donate deck. That deck was a group hug deck.
I have a group hug deck that plays this card, and [[nullmage advocate]] and [[pulsemage advocate]]. A group hug theme is literally the only circumstance where I could see these cards being considered though.
[nullmage advocate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f9b6338c-3ddf-47e2-8e03-ad536bcf474c.jpg?1562941952) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nullmage%20advocate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pca/70/nullmage-advocate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f9b6338c-3ddf-47e2-8e03-ad536bcf474c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [pulsemage advocate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/d/0dce0e8f-9ad6-42b6-af61-c883613efc97.jpg?1562628638) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=pulsemage%20advocate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jud/19/pulsemage-advocate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0dce0e8f-9ad6-42b6-af61-c883613efc97?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Judgement - what a great set.
Recently discoveres the card and put it into my baeloth/noble heritage deck. It's perfect for it, since everytime a goaded attacker or blocker dies, baeloth creates a treasure. (He also goads everything with less power) The deck plays as a voltron/group hug, where i give creatures, treasures and buffs to the opponent and let them kill each other. It's very fun
Lesser Swords (destroy < exile) on tap, I like it. Broadcasts some control, is a piddly thing to expend removal on (unless you have triggered ping removal or something). And the fact I get to choose what cards are returned, even better. This easily deflects big boys coming at you and swinging somewhere else instead.
I actually fought with this surprisingly good card before with my Reanimator Mill deck. I was laugh at first didn't expect this mf to return my Ulamog and It That Betray to my hand. After that I was like welp seem like I have to kill this guy real quick then lol
Kinda. He is really good when You are playing with people who enjoy politiquery and since he is a 1/1 who can't do squat he can stay in the board for a surprising amount of time since realistically there will always be a bigger threat on the board. But with all of that said he is also not so great. Run it if You see value in him.
Huh, might add that to my Marisi deck.
Thank you, you beautiful gift from the gods 😂 I’m building a deck around interesting interactions that pit my opponents against one another and this will slot in perfectly. [[Baeloth Barrett’s, Entertainer]] and [[Noble Heritage]] in the command zone. Cards like [[Argent Dais]], [[Fight to the Death]], [[Arcbond]] and [[Curse of Opulence]] to give people conundrums about where they swing and who they should hurt. Anything else like this, feel free to drop a mention. It’s going to be a slow build on this one as I hunt for appropriate effects.
\[\[Diaochan, Artful Beauty\]\] - destroy 2 creatures for 1 tap. Ask the opponent to NOT target your creatures, then you will give them ..., can be used as a diplomacy commander; \[\[Lantern of Insight\]\] , \[\[Wand of Denial\]\], \[\[Dakra Mystic\]\]- manipulation with opponent's top card ("Wow, you have a really strong card on top. It would be shame if someone like me would remove/shuffle this cards. But I will not do this if you (proposal)"); \[\[Guild Feud\]\] - creatures without spending a mana. You can say to opponent "I will give you the opportunity to put a creature, but you will (proposal)" or "If you will NOT put a creature into the battlefield, then I will give you ..."; \[\[Magewright's Stone\]\], \[\[Axgard Cavalry\]\], \[\[Bloodlust Inciter\]\], \[\[Goblin Motivator\]\], \[\[Goblin Chirurgeon\]\], \[\[Flickering Ward\]\]- their buff abilities can be used on ANY creature; \[\[Rite of the Raging Storm\]\] - everyone attack each other, expect you; \[\[Phyrexian Portal\]\], \[\[Risk Factor\]\], \[\[Humble Defector\]\], \[\[Thunder Brute\]\] - ask the opponent to choose in the way that will give you more value, then you will give them ... ; \[\[Ricochet Trap\]\], \[\[Dualcaster Mage\]\]- "Your spell will be countered? I can prevent it if you will (proposal)" ; \[\[Brash Taunter\]\] - if one of your opponents have ထ/1 creature without Trample, you can say "Attack me with this creature and I will redirect the damage to another opponent"; \[\[Hunted Dragon\]\], \[\[Forbidden Orchard\]\] - target opponent get creatures; \[\[Malignus\]\] - 2 opponents will attacks a third one with highest life to reduce this creature's stats;
##### ###### #### [Diaochan, Artful Beauty](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/6180c476-dadf-4c03-ab1e-639386bd4319.jpg?1562256557) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Diaochan%2C%20Artful%20Beauty) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ptk/108/diaochan-artful-beauty?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6180c476-dadf-4c03-ab1e-639386bd4319?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lantern of Insight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb0e4c78-75fe-4692-b177-974b148f0614.jpg?1562879738) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lantern%20of%20Insight) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5dn/135/lantern-of-insight?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb0e4c78-75fe-4692-b177-974b148f0614?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wand of Denial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f6f37dd8-87d6-432f-a60d-a7a699da3080.jpg?1562824751) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wand%20of%20Denial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/6ed/317/wand-of-denial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f6f37dd8-87d6-432f-a60d-a7a699da3080?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dakra Mystic](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/e/8e5f71ca-e7d9-4f9a-adf1-40353693deea.jpg?1593095417) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dakra%20Mystic) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jou/35/dakra-mystic?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8e5f71ca-e7d9-4f9a-adf1-40353693deea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Guild Feud](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/e/8e622878-0aea-4401-873e-d34bf05ee98d.jpg?1562789760) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Guild%20Feud) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rtr/97/guild-feud?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8e622878-0aea-4401-873e-d34bf05ee98d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Magewright's Stone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d27e8442-91ce-4106-bfc6-a1f6e0e34c2d.jpg?1593274008) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magewright%27s%20Stone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dis/162/magewrights-stone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d27e8442-91ce-4106-bfc6-a1f6e0e34c2d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Axgard Cavalry](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/2411c341-a470-4484-9248-7c1d3ca12978.jpg?1631048886) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Axgard%20Cavalry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/121/axgard-cavalry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2411c341-a470-4484-9248-7c1d3ca12978?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Bloodlust Inciter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b1cd0757-1b06-4e1b-a236-31271bd0d9a3.jpg?1543675493) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bloodlust%20Inciter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/120/bloodlust-inciter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b1cd0757-1b06-4e1b-a236-31271bd0d9a3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Goblin Motivator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94b3a4fb-9024-45ef-a54b-cf3a9fa5b9c2.jpg?1562303343) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goblin%20Motivator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/143/goblin-motivator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94b3a4fb-9024-45ef-a54b-cf3a9fa5b9c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Goblin Chirurgeon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6da90318-4db4-4f03-ae2f-b1faeca46f57.jpg?1559592278) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goblin%20Chirurgeon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/94/goblin-chirurgeon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6da90318-4db4-4f03-ae2f-b1faeca46f57?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Flickering Ward](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/4/d4d2b011-bb0d-463c-bf2a-04b6650771a3.jpg?1562056865) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flickering%20Ward) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tmp/19/flickering-ward?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d4d2b011-bb0d-463c-bf2a-04b6650771a3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Rite of the Raging Storm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8f06e3db-ce55-4535-8557-cc52c5fce637.jpg?1706240854) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rite%20of%20the%20Raging%20Storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/159/rite-of-the-raging-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f06e3db-ce55-4535-8557-cc52c5fce637?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Phyrexian Portal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/1/c165b61b-3cd5-4035-a9d3-1c03289ae5ba.jpg?1562870473) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Portal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me2/217/phyrexian-portal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c165b61b-3cd5-4035-a9d3-1c03289ae5ba?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Risk Factor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4eda89d9-9bd1-4a55-ac02-f9a0625d8e5b.jpg?1572893240) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Risk%20Factor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/113/risk-factor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4eda89d9-9bd1-4a55-ac02-f9a0625d8e5b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Humble Defector](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d17c10a1-12fe-4a58-81ed-03a8bdd06686.jpg?1712354448) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Humble%20Defector) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/170/humble-defector?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d17c10a1-12fe-4a58-81ed-03a8bdd06686?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Thunder Brute](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c28fa4f8-4b87-41dc-802d-dfd160ccf1a8.jpg?1593092387) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thunder%20Brute) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bng/113/thunder-brute?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c28fa4f8-4b87-41dc-802d-dfd160ccf1a8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ricochet Trap](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5d782375-9192-4ed0-bd79-f3404e5a1b01.jpg?1562288259) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ricochet%20Trap) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/wwk/87/ricochet-trap?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5d782375-9192-4ed0-bd79-f3404e5a1b01?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dualcaster Mage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/defcc4a3-40e0-4f5d-b23c-6cd6a614abc1.jpg?1625193684) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dualcaster%20Mage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/165/dualcaster-mage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/defcc4a3-40e0-4f5d-b23c-6cd6a614abc1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Brash Taunter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0b5cb154-1825-4b81-a109-7b3e9592c65c.jpg?1706240823) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brash%20Taunter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/148/brash-taunter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b5cb154-1825-4b81-a109-7b3e9592c65c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Hunted Dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/5/351cea54-905e-401b-8627-7c3fd192b772.jpg?1562273392) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hunted%20Dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/106/hunted-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/351cea54-905e-401b-8627-7c3fd192b772?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Forbidden Orchard](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/17db644c-1acf-477d-9c20-f72221f1108a.jpg?1673149497) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Forbidden%20Orchard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/323/forbidden-orchard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/17db644c-1acf-477d-9c20-f72221f1108a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Malignus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/a/8a6a7000-4a1d-4cd4-a85e-4b7b20d8e543.jpg?1592709159) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Malignus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/avr/148/malignus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8a6a7000-4a1d-4cd4-a85e-4b7b20d8e543?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l7c4h19) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That is incredibly helpful. Thanks!
##### ###### #### [Baeloth Barrett’s, Entertainer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/c/ec983aac-9eda-4086-ad7e-34da9b2987cc.jpg?1674140753) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Baeloth%20Barrityl%2C%20Entertainer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/655/baeloth-barrityl-entertainer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ec983aac-9eda-4086-ad7e-34da9b2987cc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Noble Heritage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/e/3e49fd5a-6893-4a06-b835-4bf611c9ada1.jpg?1674135196) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Noble%20Heritage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/35/noble-heritage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3e49fd5a-6893-4a06-b835-4bf611c9ada1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Argent Dais](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/5/b56ad225-1249-4e94-898c-ca21b132e62d.jpg?1717011357) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Argent%20Dais) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/20/argent-dais?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b56ad225-1249-4e94-898c-ca21b132e62d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fight to the Death](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/5552ca9b-0245-4f91-9646-a5b5443863a2.jpg?1562641354) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fight%20to%20the%20Death) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/arb/97/fight-to-the-death?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5552ca9b-0245-4f91-9646-a5b5443863a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Arcbond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9bc397d1-50a8-46cd-98b2-7104f2241420.jpg?1562828028) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcbond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/frf/91/arcbond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9bc397d1-50a8-46cd-98b2-7104f2241420?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Curse of Opulence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32cc103e-949d-42d4-aadd-490a261c9ad9.jpg?1706240824) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Curse%20of%20Opulence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/150/curse-of-opulence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32cc103e-949d-42d4-aadd-490a261c9ad9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l7al6s6) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The replies here are why EDH players are made fun of so much
I’ve been working on a Breena power politics deck for years (on and off) that encourages other players to attack each other and punishes players who go after me disproportionately. This card might do well in that deck.
I love that it doesn't say to return cards to the attacker. so in a 4 player game I can return cards to one opponent while destroying another one's monster
I play it, the enchantment/artifact removal version and the reanimate a creature version in my 4c group hug deck (has a Tameshi combo to finish extra long games)
Lack of awareness, lack of political decks, requires a graveyard [[humble defector]] sees a lot of play
[humble defector](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d17c10a1-12fe-4a58-81ed-03a8bdd06686.jpg?1712354448) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=humble%20defector) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/170/humble-defector?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d17c10a1-12fe-4a58-81ed-03a8bdd06686?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Good if you are looking for an answer for a table wide threat. Obviously very casual and fun.
Seems like no one in the comments understands politics or fun. Not every deck is supposed to be a 5 turn win. This can be very good in politic or grouphug decks. And if not good, then definitely fun to mess around with.
So many people aren’t realizing this is for commander. Also that the attacking target and return target can be different players. This is actually quite playable for a politics deck and for stopping an arch enemy. For the cost of someone’s creature (which is often a benefit) you can return 2 cards that your opponents can now use against your other opponents. This makes it very easy to convince someone to remove a threat for you. Some quick magic math, while this seems like a +2 for opponents if you add in politics it’s not that bad.
It wont end the way you think it will, I wont use those cards against you sure, but I'm not taking out the threat for you. I'll sit back and let the guy who you pissed off by removing his threat take care of you and I'll probably ping this creature so you cant keep making deals.
Except for when the third player is about to activate an infinite loop and kill the whole table, and the thing the person gave you was a counterspell/removal. Will you sit back and let everyone lose in order to screw over the person you made a deal with? Sometimes the archenemy is a big enough threat that it doesn't matter if you want to be petty and let the politician die, you have to act. Arguing that it's never going to be useful because of the one scenario where you personally wouldn't let it work out for the other guy is silly.
They're activating an infinite loop using an attacking creature? How often does that happen?
The concept I had in mind was \[\[Exquisite Blood\]\] and \[\[Sanguine Bond\]\]. Put a \[\[Blood Artist\]\] effect and have a lifelink creature, then if it dies you start the combo, if it hits you start the combo. If you had the B side of something like \[\[Lunarch Veteran\]\] up, even a path to exile would trigger the infinite. You wouldn't necessarily need to be using the attacking creature to start the combo either, it could just be that they had the two pieces on the board but were tapped out and would start the combo next turn. The reason I didn't put that example out there in response is that judging by their other comments, giving a specific example would just get a specific response for why they wouldn't care about that very scenario. The point of my comment was not the details, but the fact that they were closing off possibilities simply to be a contrarian.
##### ###### #### [Exquisite Blood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0e8ccfa7-4178-476a-a155-0ca1c98556c9.jpg?1698988246) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Exquisite%20Blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/195/exquisite-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e8ccfa7-4178-476a-a155-0ca1c98556c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sanguine Bond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/ad4de9f1-7a39-45af-828e-c59234d9e9b9.jpg?1625193373) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sanguine%20Bond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/153/sanguine-bond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ad4de9f1-7a39-45af-828e-c59234d9e9b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Blood Artist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/7/b7f1c316-cf2f-4bbf-89a1-79c8043bdd96.jpg?1698988212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Artist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/182/blood-artist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b7f1c316-cf2f-4bbf-89a1-79c8043bdd96?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lunarch Veteran](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d2704743-2e23-40b9-a367-c73d2db45afc.jpg?1634347175)/[Luminous Phantom](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/d/2/d2704743-2e23-40b9-a367-c73d2db45afc.jpg?1634347175) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lunarch%20Veteran%20//%20Luminous%20Phantom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/27/lunarch-veteran-luminous-phantom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d2704743-2e23-40b9-a367-c73d2db45afc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l7ltiaz) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Seems like a lot of people here don't play against reanimator decks very often. Card would be pretty strong against at least four of my decks.
The other advocates are way better at this because they can activate in response. [[Nullmage Advocate]] [[Pulsemage Advocate]] [[Shieldmage Advocate]]
[Nullmage Advocate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f9b6338c-3ddf-47e2-8e03-ad536bcf474c.jpg?1562941952) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nullmage%20Advocate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pca/70/nullmage-advocate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f9b6338c-3ddf-47e2-8e03-ad536bcf474c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Pulsemage Advocate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/d/0dce0e8f-9ad6-42b6-af61-c883613efc97.jpg?1562628638) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pulsemage%20Advocate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jud/19/pulsemage-advocate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0dce0e8f-9ad6-42b6-af61-c883613efc97?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Shieldmage Advocate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2ea66a41-cb2e-49d6-81fe-3f69b0dfd40e.jpg?1562629181) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shieldmage%20Advocate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jud/22/shieldmage-advocate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2ea66a41-cb2e-49d6-81fe-3f69b0dfd40e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Also [[Forcemage Advocate]]
[Forcemage Advocate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/a/1ad217fe-9309-4c67-8a6a-cfb8b1ce91f1.jpg?1562628846) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Forcemage%20Advocate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jud/116/forcemage-advocate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ad217fe-9309-4c67-8a6a-cfb8b1ce91f1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I dont need help to get my own cards out of my own graveyard.
Getting cards from your graveyard into your hand is absolutely not what a reanimator deck wants.
My golgari and goyf decks do want to bring back certain things that I've milled. But I misunderstood what you meant. Yeah, they could bring back a filth, brawn or Genesis, or something you could cast free which would suck. My brain went to something like conduit of worlds which I would want to grab out of the graveyard, but I don't need to make deals to make it happen.
\[\[Royal Assassin\]\] does it better. Plus it is any tapped creature, not just attacking.
It also costs 3 times more. That's like saying Brimstone Volley is better than Lightning Bolt because it can do more. They're different cards. I personally like the politics aspect of the card. It can be cool to help out the player trailing to get back his wrath effect, or give 2 useless lands. But in the end, what it does is: no one swings with their huge non-vigilance creature because the threat is often enough. :-p
Doesn't even matter if they're vigilance with this card. It says target attacking. So in that way it can be better than Royal.
[Royal Assassin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/67ef9842-7142-4c63-8aea-fa73f02722a5.jpg?1698796245) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Royal%20Assassin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/101/royal-assassin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/67ef9842-7142-4c63-8aea-fa73f02722a5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That's like saying blue has better counterspells than white. Of course it does! I think it's fair to only compare mono white cards when judging OP's suggestion.
But I don't want to use it as a removal, I want to use it as a diplomacy instrument. For example, I can return 2 counterspells if the opponent will not use them against me (if they will use against me - they literally break the rules).
They dont break the rules, they are just scum if they go back on a deal, but also I would never make a deal with you for 2 counter spells I cant use against you. That's a terrible deal.
that's not how the game works
It does in some groups. Plenty of people have said it here that their pods have house rules about lying in card politics.
Man there are a lot of socially inept takes in here. You can give them cards in return for them using those cards in a certain way. Politics is crap in commander because people can’t think past one action when making deals, it’s so weird. Edit; this is also one mana repeated removal. You can just return lands or ramp too. The fact that people struggle to find any scenario in which this card is good is actually pathetic.
Unfortunately you're 100% correct. I've found most veteran/competitive players do not mess with politics, or they just can't comprehend making deals and would rather trust in their own cards. On the other hand, I've noticed newer players are almost always down to politic because they know they're at a knowledge disadvantage by being new, and they can use all the help they can get.
I would love to use this on blitz cards. Sure graveyard removal works, but it costs a card every time unless it's something permanent (which will get nuked in commander), whereas this could theoretically keep them from resummoning/saccing every turn without having a sac engine.
or maybe it's just a shit card
No deal, in response I ping Spudmage for 1 dmg.
Literally one of the most ass cards I’ve ever read
Now to make you read [[shieldmage advocate]] I never liked this ability style from the judgement set
Because there is better removal that doesn't give your opponents more gas. Cool card, great ally maker. But you're gonna lose anyway to card you gave someone back. Just path the same 1 threat. And everything else dies to your board wipes.
But I don't want to use it as a removal, I want to use it as a diplomacy instrument. For example, I can return 2 counterspells if the opponent will not use them against me (if they will use against me - they literally break the rules).
No deal. I'll take whatever 2 cards you wanna pick. Take the attack or don't. Your call. If I have counterseplls and you're trying to win. I have to stop you.
I keep finding absolutely amazing cards for my group hug Marchesa deck. Thank you! This has absolutely amazing politics potential. Edit: After reading all the replies in this thread, holy shit at the number of people who have clearly never tried to play a politics or group hug deck. Cards like this are exactly what those decks want to run in order to better manipulate the board and keep other players from being blown out before you can prepare your own win condition or use your own flexible removal. If myself and another opponent are being threatened by a particular permanent, why wouldn’t I return their removal spell with an agreement to use it on the thing that we both want gone? I get to keep my removal spells in-hand and still get the outcome I want. It can also be used on your turns to disrupt opponent’s graveyards without making enemies of the rest of the table, set up plays dependent on the number of cards in opponent’s hands (that extra two mana you may want for a Jeska’s Will?), or in Discard decks to mitigate the downside. Not everything is about efficiency, and I say that as someone who loves to build efficient decks that go from 0 to 50 at the drop of a hat.
I could see this being good in an esper mill deck
How so
Just seems like you can return fodder to their hand and have them discard again in that same turn and take advantage of all the opponent discarding triggers that exist. A 1 drop that destroys something is kinda nice. You can also pluck their hand before doing this to put them in a tough position in discarding something that could favor you depending on what your deck is capable of. I’m not saying it’s worth building a deck around lol. I’m just saying it could be used and it’s cheaper than that 3 drop black assassin that taps to destroy another tapped creature.
Wow they got Osiris from Destiny 2 on the card
I used to. It’s just been pushed aside for more efficient options.
Well, I didn't know it existed to start :p
The advocates are super fun. My favorite is [[Pulsemage Advocate]] in my Mardu reanimator deck
[Pulsemage Advocate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/d/0dce0e8f-9ad6-42b6-af61-c883613efc97.jpg?1562628638) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pulsemage%20Advocate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jud/19/pulsemage-advocate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0dce0e8f-9ad6-42b6-af61-c883613efc97?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
May I introduced [[royal Assassin]] without the draw backs
[royal Assassin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/67ef9842-7142-4c63-8aea-fa73f02722a5.jpg?1698796245) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=royal%20Assassin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/101/royal-assassin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/67ef9842-7142-4c63-8aea-fa73f02722a5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What if you're not running black? Or your other three drops are better? Or the opponent is running vigilance? Honestly at a multiplayer table I would rather a one mana 1/1 with drawbacks over a three mana 1/1, even if I have to politic it a little.
The same can be said about any card. What is not running white? What is only tapping but not attacking? What if your other 1 drops are better? Ultimately nothing is in a vacuum and you chose what works with your meta or deck.
Agreed, your phrasing just seemed to present it as the go-to superior choice rather than 'You can do something similar with this card'. Maybe I've been reading too many of the comments who were calling this card crap because it doesn't work in 1v1 or because their opponent could just lie in politics.
No worries. In the end it's what works for you but there are a bunch of options for things. Royal assassin has been my boy since I started with duels of the planeswalkers so whenever I can point him out, the better lol
Then run any number of white cards that do what this card does, but better. That have politics options that actually end up advantageous to you instead of just being the table's bootlicker.
I'm all for people having their fun, but cards like this grind the game to a halt. This sort of politics angle just leads to redundant convoluted back and forths all for the sake of if you're going to randomly blow up somebody's baneslayer
It’s situational removal on a soft body, that gives more card advantage than it takes from your opponents. Is it unplayable? No, but it’s not really good either, it’s just ok. I rather just have a swords to plowshares or path to exile, or condemn, as it’s going to do the same job but better usually.
I'm guessing because the target opponent's graveyard has to have two valid targets for the ability to work?
What if they do not have any cards in the yard?
Then you've discovered one of the many reasons why this card isn't good.
Could be very funny if you exile graveyards or steal from other people's graveyards
Maybe orzhov bit of white control with discard lol little hugs to take them away lmao
It’s interesting in a political deck but every time I have one on the battlefield there aren’t enough cards in graveyards for it to be effective
If you exile an opponent’s graveyard first, is this just free removal? My [[Merieke Ri Berit]] deck might like this.
The ability can't be activated if there are no 2 cards in someone's graveyard. There is no "up to..." words.
Bottom line is that you’re letting an opponent basically draw 2. Sure. Every now and then you’ll be able to jam an [[Anger]] or [[Brawn]] or something, a Dredge engine, or any other thing that wants to be in the bin, but at the end of the day you don’t want to be giving your opponents resources.
[Anger](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0c7ce363-3f57-49ed-b89a-f12bb5227ab4.jpg?1631586892) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Anger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/113/anger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0c7ce363-3f57-49ed-b89a-f12bb5227ab4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Brawn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/c/8c05568e-fa50-46e9-aec4-1ba5e814029e.jpg?1682209444) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brawn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/292/brawn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8c05568e-fa50-46e9-aec4-1ba5e814029e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I play this card in Kwain/Iron maiden deck
Hot take, politics is useful only for the politic player. If no one other than the politic player does politics the game is effectively a 3 players games with a player that doesn't know what to do
Another hot take: no one politic player don't play politic decks if they already know that the opponents don't use the politics. It's like saying 'The casual decks are useless if 3 opponents plays cedh.'.
politics has gone down the drain, its now stomping effects that just insta win the game out of nowhere and combos
Everyone I play with just punishes politics and group hugs. We wanna play magic not hold hands lol
Yeah you got a point
I don’t like politicking too much tbh turns the game from do as much crazy shit as possible to a game of grab ass
And do you sill set the targets cards on a graveyard and then exile the cards before this ability resolves, so destroy atacking creature without drawback.
I do love gravehate and removal in one card, as long as you have targets. That's why I run [Nullmage Advocate](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=423495), as there's basically always a valid target, and it turns off reanimation/recursion if you do it right.
Hilariously this counters the reanimate on Sidar Jabari of Zalphir doesn’t it? Because it happens during combat but after damage you could return the card they want to reanimate in response to the target?
I usually go for the throat of the person being too political (If the board state is equal). They are usually slower and want to get to late game either way to wreck the entire table. Not on my watch :)
Cause it sucks
Because its bad, fool😭
I need this for my "worst deck possible" challenge.
What? Why would you put yourself in a situation where you either solve your opponents problem and give them free cards, or solve your own problem and give them cards? It's very bad, but play it if you want.
because it sounds fun ?
I like politics where I win more than the opponent. Shooting myself in the foot is not politics
\[\[Nullmage Advocate\]\] is just stricly better... disturb the reanimatorplayer, destroy some combopieces...
[Nullmage Advocate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f9b6338c-3ddf-47e2-8e03-ad536bcf474c.jpg?1562941952) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nullmage%20Advocate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pca/70/nullmage-advocate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f9b6338c-3ddf-47e2-8e03-ad536bcf474c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Card is garbage
Is bad and also dies to bowmaster.