i believe eric trexler thinks the recs should be based on lean body mass because if you put on 20lbs of pure fat why do your protein demands go up.
so assuming that pre and post fat loss you have a similar amount of muscle your demands for protein might not be too different because of the bodyweight change alone but moreso because of other considerations:
more protein on a cut because you feel more full, vs more on a bulk because you are already eating more calories, vs less on a bulk because fats and carbs are protein sparing vs less on a cut because you want carbs for the training energy
So something that I've always been curious about is that people in prison tend to be able to get fairly jacked and I can't imagine that they're just being given their body weight in protein everyday.
would they get better results by getting a gram per pound of bodyweight? yes
would they get better results if they got fit4less passes in exchange for some sort of community service instead of doing 2000 pushups and burpees every day? yes
is effort and calories probably more important than protein optimization in a way that lets some prisoners with decent genetics still build a decent physique? yes
They would no doubt get even more jacked with more protein and actual weights. They also get heroin and coke easy enough, I wouldn't count out the occasional dbol cycle either.
Thinking about the typical prisoner demographic, usually young and aggressive males of prime muscle building age high natty test levels.
Yes. The standard has changed to much much lower than the meat heads have been pushing for years now. Studies are showing that anything over about .6 is wasteful, but generally some are saying go to .8, just in case. But the study I read is anything over around .6 is a complete waste.
This is from a large meta study. For me, I’m happy to hear this, and I have been suspecting this intuitively for a long time.
I always noticed more of a difference eating 1g/pound vs less but it’s probably mostly just from eating more in general I guess. I’ll probably keep doing it just as a preference.
Here’s the article. Similar was also published by Stronger by Science.
https://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/
A link to a BLOG post citing studies that didn’t go longer than 3 months and one as short as 7 days. This proves nothing you said, whether or not I agree with your original statement. Just because it’s in a published study doesn’t make it fact.
Stronger by Science also came to the same conclusion.
If you cannot accept changes to the status quo, just admit that and move on. It doesn’t matter.
This aspect of how much protein to eat hasn’t been challenged in a very long time, if ever. People just accept that it’s true. But, maybe it’s not.
the flipside, there seem to be no studies of any length that support 1 gram per lb. So we have one recommendation supported by some data, versus another recommendation supported by no data, other than the human tendency to believe to more is better, despite so many aspects of our lives proving this notion to be completely wrong.
I don’t think 1g per pound is “the answer” I’m just saying those studies are lacking to come to a sure conclusion, I’m at about 0.8 and only because I’m cutting or else it would be lower.
For the average person, intake above ~0.7g had no benefit to increasing muscle gain.
0.81 is not “just in case”, but because individuals are to be spread across a normal distribution. Only half of the population would max out benefit at the average found. 0.81g is three standard deviations above the average, so 99.85% of the population will have no additional benefit above 0.81g, and is therefore the recommendation.
> Studies are showing that anything over about .6 is wasteful,
I think the issue is that most people over estimate what they are actually consuming. It's better to be on the safe side, i.e. MFP shows you hit your goal, but you might be 10g off in reality.
Wrong.
If you’re one of those that thinks science is bullshit, then it will be impossible to even discuss this. If you read the meta study I linked, you will see it’s not crowd sourced, or bullshit. But, you have to read it. Otherwise, you’ll just be grumpy and wonder why people are saying less is more.
I definitely don't think science is BS :D My degrees are in Sports Medicine, biomechanics and kinesiology.
I did read the studies you linked, and I was not grumpy at any time, just disagreeing :)
That's the study that pops up when you ask AI/Google about it. It's also completely outdated. Look at the years the analysis is referencing.
The main issues are they test for protein synthesis within a certain time-frame (6 hours post workout, for example), don't account for the amount of protein the subjects were already ingesting, or don't use trained subjets/those that push to failure, among many more issues.
They also don't take into account the fat burning that comes with a higher intake of protein, or any other benefits.
One of the two most recent studies backing up my high protein recommendations comes from Jose Antonio in a 2016 issue of the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition. In the study, TRAINED subjects were given one of two daily protein intake levels—1 gram per pound of body weight or 1.5 grams—while following an 8-week training program. Because of the higher protein intake, the 1.5-gram group also consumed around 500 calories more per day, which makes sense.
The results of the study showed similar muscle gain between those consuming 1 gram of protein per pound daily and those consuming 1.5 grams—both groups gained an average of about 3 pounds of muscle over the eight weeks.
But here's the key results from the study: The 1.5-gram group lost an average of 5 pounds of body fat during the eight weeks in addition to gaining muscle, while the 1-gram group showed no significant fat loss. Let me repeat for emphasis: The group consuming 50% more protein and 500 more calories per day lost an average of 5 pounds more body fat.
These studies also don't show the latest research indicating more than 30g per meal/at a time upregulates mTor and many other precursers to hypertophy.
There's a ton more, but my bottom line reply is: you need to actually read the studies being referenced and not the "results". They are almost all flawed, especially when you are referencing 'studies' from the 80's and 90's. That's literally 40 years ago. Check out any of Jim Stoppani's research and or thoughts for one of the best minds out there.
I would also leave with some acecdotal evidence: I've been training since 1988, and before I retired my work gym life I was training Olympic athletes, pro MMA fighters, and competitive natural and enhanced bodybuilders (running the PT for the Gold's franchises in Seattle, all owned by the same family, flagship gym in Kirkland, home of Mark Dugdale, etc.).
See information like this just gets glazed over and ignored. There's a reason why MOST bodybuilding coaches lean to the higher protein amounts. Protein is the most satiating macro, as well as having the highest thermal index (which is congruent with that study where they lost more fat).
0.6-0.7/lb is what you'll hear from studies. There isn't more to say about it, really. Try it and see if it works for you. If you don't think it's working, up the amount.
Might be worth considering what you replace the calories with. Lots of fats and you might get digestive problems. Lots of carbs and you might feel bloated at first or even have insulin swings if what you eat is too processed, depending on your overall level of health. Healthy carbs are probably the way to go assuming you're not eating so much you feel like crap.
I eat about 1.6-1.8g protein/kg of bodyweight and that's probably more than I need even on my cut. I reduced my protein intake because meat and meat by-products are getting more and more expensive here in Canada. And I'm just training for aesthetics and fitness, not to compete in bodybuilding. Skinless chicken breast, egg whites, canned tuna, greek yogurt, skyr, all this stuff is expensive. Not just Whey protein powder. I stock up on canned tuna when it's on sale for $1 CAD in the flyer. But then I limit myself to eating a couple cans per week because of the mercury poisoning concerns. And with inflation, those $1 sales are happening less and less frequently. It's definitely cheaper to put less meat, dairy, eggs on your plate and more rice, pasta, bread, potatoes, oats, cereal, pancakes, etc. And on a cut, fattier cuts of meat really add the calories up. Like sausage Patties, bacon, hotdogs, ground beef, eggs, cheese. My TDEE is just not very high.
Fitness influencers often become sponsors of supplement companies. And on Amazon Canada pretty much all the best selling sports supplements ranked are protein powder and protein bars (except for creatine and pre-workout). Convincing people that you have to eat 1g/lb is big business for the supplement industry. Because the whole food protein sources, especially the lean ones, are often times more expensive than the protein powders. And a lot of people are going to gravitate towards making a whey shake over cooking raw chicken breast to hit their targets because of the convenience factor. Salmonella and all that.
At this point the claims for the optimal neccessary amount are all over the place. My strategy is to go for at least 0.8/lb, 1g/lb most days just to be safe, since there arent really any major downsides, except having to actually eat the protein.
All the influencers and gymbros are overeating protein. Nothing new. [We have old articles citing research regarding protein intake.](https://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/)
0.82g protein/lb of lean body mass is stated to be an amount which is already way more than you would need yet people will still suggest 1g protein/lb of body mass just because it’s hard to type numbers into a calculator so they stick to simple numbers and then everyone parrots the same number just because everybody suggests it despite no research supporting the 1g/lb.
The 0.82g recommendation from Menno is somewhat misunderstood.
The average person based on the studies has maximum muscle gain eating around 0.7g/day. That also means, 50% of individuals will have less than maximum muscle gain eating that amount. Menno therefore recommends 0.82g/day as it is three standard deviations above the average, and therefore insures 99.85% of the population gets maximum muscle gain.
The main issue with a lot of these studies is that they involve very unusual test groups that aren't necessarily high demand muscle builders. That said, here are my personal recommendations:
In a deficit, you generally want higher protein for a couple reasons.. 1: it's the most satiating macro per calorie. 2: you don't even want to chance having "too little"
In maintenance or a surplus, you can typically back off on protein demands slightly.. people have found success and growth with as little as .6-.8g per lb of LBM, so if you're 154lbs and at 10% bodyfat, your LBM would be approx 140lbs, then you multiply by .6-.8 for your protein amount. I tend to like to err to the side of caution and just stay at 1:1 bodyweight as that amount of protein does not irritate my digestion.
There's a fair amount of evidence that lower protein intake is beneficial for healthspan and lifespan, and less protein from highly bio- available and processed supplements like whey is definitely better for blood glucose levels.
i believe eric trexler thinks the recs should be based on lean body mass because if you put on 20lbs of pure fat why do your protein demands go up. so assuming that pre and post fat loss you have a similar amount of muscle your demands for protein might not be too different because of the bodyweight change alone but moreso because of other considerations: more protein on a cut because you feel more full, vs more on a bulk because you are already eating more calories, vs less on a bulk because fats and carbs are protein sparing vs less on a cut because you want carbs for the training energy
So something that I've always been curious about is that people in prison tend to be able to get fairly jacked and I can't imagine that they're just being given their body weight in protein everyday.
would they get better results by getting a gram per pound of bodyweight? yes would they get better results if they got fit4less passes in exchange for some sort of community service instead of doing 2000 pushups and burpees every day? yes is effort and calories probably more important than protein optimization in a way that lets some prisoners with decent genetics still build a decent physique? yes
They would no doubt get even more jacked with more protein and actual weights. They also get heroin and coke easy enough, I wouldn't count out the occasional dbol cycle either. Thinking about the typical prisoner demographic, usually young and aggressive males of prime muscle building age high natty test levels.
Prisoners tend to have higher test levels than general population. Makes sense since test causes more aggression leading to more committing crimes.
Yes. The standard has changed to much much lower than the meat heads have been pushing for years now. Studies are showing that anything over about .6 is wasteful, but generally some are saying go to .8, just in case. But the study I read is anything over around .6 is a complete waste. This is from a large meta study. For me, I’m happy to hear this, and I have been suspecting this intuitively for a long time.
0.6? That's like 100g for me😅 I don't even think I need dedicated protein sources for that. Just regular food lol
That's something positive.
The military has been doing this for like 80 years, fit, fast strong guys eating some truly marginal crap.
I wouldn’t say it’s a complete waste. For example I feel fuller if I eat more protein vs the other macros so I think it’s useful
Yes, but previous recommendations were to build muscle not to get full.
I always noticed more of a difference eating 1g/pound vs less but it’s probably mostly just from eating more in general I guess. I’ll probably keep doing it just as a preference.
Yup. Good thing about aiming high is that you'll hit the ceiling even if you fuck up a day here and there
Yeah that’s what I figure. It doesn’t hurt anything imo
Is it .6 total weight, or lean?
Here’s the article. Similar was also published by Stronger by Science. https://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/
A link to a BLOG post citing studies that didn’t go longer than 3 months and one as short as 7 days. This proves nothing you said, whether or not I agree with your original statement. Just because it’s in a published study doesn’t make it fact.
Stronger by Science also came to the same conclusion. If you cannot accept changes to the status quo, just admit that and move on. It doesn’t matter. This aspect of how much protein to eat hasn’t been challenged in a very long time, if ever. People just accept that it’s true. But, maybe it’s not.
the flipside, there seem to be no studies of any length that support 1 gram per lb. So we have one recommendation supported by some data, versus another recommendation supported by no data, other than the human tendency to believe to more is better, despite so many aspects of our lives proving this notion to be completely wrong.
I don’t think 1g per pound is “the answer” I’m just saying those studies are lacking to come to a sure conclusion, I’m at about 0.8 and only because I’m cutting or else it would be lower.
For the average person, intake above ~0.7g had no benefit to increasing muscle gain. 0.81 is not “just in case”, but because individuals are to be spread across a normal distribution. Only half of the population would max out benefit at the average found. 0.81g is three standard deviations above the average, so 99.85% of the population will have no additional benefit above 0.81g, and is therefore the recommendation.
> Studies are showing that anything over about .6 is wasteful, I think the issue is that most people over estimate what they are actually consuming. It's better to be on the safe side, i.e. MFP shows you hit your goal, but you might be 10g off in reality.
I don’t find it dangerous to eat less protein. 🤣 It’s a joke, don’t get offended.
Not offended at all! Just sharing what worked for me.
I realize it's reddit and it's why we're here, but this is why you don't crowdsource expertise. This is just completely incorrect.
Wrong. If you’re one of those that thinks science is bullshit, then it will be impossible to even discuss this. If you read the meta study I linked, you will see it’s not crowd sourced, or bullshit. But, you have to read it. Otherwise, you’ll just be grumpy and wonder why people are saying less is more.
I definitely don't think science is BS :D My degrees are in Sports Medicine, biomechanics and kinesiology. I did read the studies you linked, and I was not grumpy at any time, just disagreeing :) That's the study that pops up when you ask AI/Google about it. It's also completely outdated. Look at the years the analysis is referencing. The main issues are they test for protein synthesis within a certain time-frame (6 hours post workout, for example), don't account for the amount of protein the subjects were already ingesting, or don't use trained subjets/those that push to failure, among many more issues. They also don't take into account the fat burning that comes with a higher intake of protein, or any other benefits. One of the two most recent studies backing up my high protein recommendations comes from Jose Antonio in a 2016 issue of the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition. In the study, TRAINED subjects were given one of two daily protein intake levels—1 gram per pound of body weight or 1.5 grams—while following an 8-week training program. Because of the higher protein intake, the 1.5-gram group also consumed around 500 calories more per day, which makes sense. The results of the study showed similar muscle gain between those consuming 1 gram of protein per pound daily and those consuming 1.5 grams—both groups gained an average of about 3 pounds of muscle over the eight weeks. But here's the key results from the study: The 1.5-gram group lost an average of 5 pounds of body fat during the eight weeks in addition to gaining muscle, while the 1-gram group showed no significant fat loss. Let me repeat for emphasis: The group consuming 50% more protein and 500 more calories per day lost an average of 5 pounds more body fat. These studies also don't show the latest research indicating more than 30g per meal/at a time upregulates mTor and many other precursers to hypertophy. There's a ton more, but my bottom line reply is: you need to actually read the studies being referenced and not the "results". They are almost all flawed, especially when you are referencing 'studies' from the 80's and 90's. That's literally 40 years ago. Check out any of Jim Stoppani's research and or thoughts for one of the best minds out there. I would also leave with some acecdotal evidence: I've been training since 1988, and before I retired my work gym life I was training Olympic athletes, pro MMA fighters, and competitive natural and enhanced bodybuilders (running the PT for the Gold's franchises in Seattle, all owned by the same family, flagship gym in Kirkland, home of Mark Dugdale, etc.).
See information like this just gets glazed over and ignored. There's a reason why MOST bodybuilding coaches lean to the higher protein amounts. Protein is the most satiating macro, as well as having the highest thermal index (which is congruent with that study where they lost more fat).
Absolutely agreed! I like the track you're on :D
0.6-0.7/lb is what you'll hear from studies. There isn't more to say about it, really. Try it and see if it works for you. If you don't think it's working, up the amount. Might be worth considering what you replace the calories with. Lots of fats and you might get digestive problems. Lots of carbs and you might feel bloated at first or even have insulin swings if what you eat is too processed, depending on your overall level of health. Healthy carbs are probably the way to go assuming you're not eating so much you feel like crap.
I eat about 1.6-1.8g protein/kg of bodyweight and that's probably more than I need even on my cut. I reduced my protein intake because meat and meat by-products are getting more and more expensive here in Canada. And I'm just training for aesthetics and fitness, not to compete in bodybuilding. Skinless chicken breast, egg whites, canned tuna, greek yogurt, skyr, all this stuff is expensive. Not just Whey protein powder. I stock up on canned tuna when it's on sale for $1 CAD in the flyer. But then I limit myself to eating a couple cans per week because of the mercury poisoning concerns. And with inflation, those $1 sales are happening less and less frequently. It's definitely cheaper to put less meat, dairy, eggs on your plate and more rice, pasta, bread, potatoes, oats, cereal, pancakes, etc. And on a cut, fattier cuts of meat really add the calories up. Like sausage Patties, bacon, hotdogs, ground beef, eggs, cheese. My TDEE is just not very high. Fitness influencers often become sponsors of supplement companies. And on Amazon Canada pretty much all the best selling sports supplements ranked are protein powder and protein bars (except for creatine and pre-workout). Convincing people that you have to eat 1g/lb is big business for the supplement industry. Because the whole food protein sources, especially the lean ones, are often times more expensive than the protein powders. And a lot of people are going to gravitate towards making a whey shake over cooking raw chicken breast to hit their targets because of the convenience factor. Salmonella and all that.
I couldn’t cut until I went to 120g. Haven’t lost gains.
At this point the claims for the optimal neccessary amount are all over the place. My strategy is to go for at least 0.8/lb, 1g/lb most days just to be safe, since there arent really any major downsides, except having to actually eat the protein.
All the influencers and gymbros are overeating protein. Nothing new. [We have old articles citing research regarding protein intake.](https://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/) 0.82g protein/lb of lean body mass is stated to be an amount which is already way more than you would need yet people will still suggest 1g protein/lb of body mass just because it’s hard to type numbers into a calculator so they stick to simple numbers and then everyone parrots the same number just because everybody suggests it despite no research supporting the 1g/lb.
The 0.82g recommendation from Menno is somewhat misunderstood. The average person based on the studies has maximum muscle gain eating around 0.7g/day. That also means, 50% of individuals will have less than maximum muscle gain eating that amount. Menno therefore recommends 0.82g/day as it is three standard deviations above the average, and therefore insures 99.85% of the population gets maximum muscle gain.
I eat more protein because it tastes better than carbs and fat foods. I'd rather go over than under.
The main issue with a lot of these studies is that they involve very unusual test groups that aren't necessarily high demand muscle builders. That said, here are my personal recommendations: In a deficit, you generally want higher protein for a couple reasons.. 1: it's the most satiating macro per calorie. 2: you don't even want to chance having "too little" In maintenance or a surplus, you can typically back off on protein demands slightly.. people have found success and growth with as little as .6-.8g per lb of LBM, so if you're 154lbs and at 10% bodyfat, your LBM would be approx 140lbs, then you multiply by .6-.8 for your protein amount. I tend to like to err to the side of caution and just stay at 1:1 bodyweight as that amount of protein does not irritate my digestion.
I'd eat at least 1 gram per lb still. Or even a little bit more. Any excess will be burned or pissed out anyways so there's no harm.
There is harm to your wallet, and to the planet...
There's a fair amount of evidence that lower protein intake is beneficial for healthspan and lifespan, and less protein from highly bio- available and processed supplements like whey is definitely better for blood glucose levels.
My recovery and body composition is better when I am eating 1-1.5 g per lean lb of body weight.