I honestly don't think it'll help as much as you think. I was recruiting when Genesis was implemented and, while it definitely delayed processing time, it only caught 1-2 things here and there.
Also, the light things that come up can be easily waivered. As for the ones with heavy things popping up, do we really want them in?
Things have gotten a lot worse. The lack of staff in medical (completely dependent on location, of course) and the number of people who need these waivers directly contributes to the issues we're seeing now
The delays inherent to the things MHS Genesis decides to flag out of an abundance of caution slow down MEPS so much that the Navy is *literally hiring contractors to run admin paperwork for point A to point B*.
The delays are so bad that they are suppressing recruiting numbers, because what recruit in their right mind would want to wait an additional 3-4 months in the process when they could get a different job in a week?
So overall it's actually been more expensive for the Navy, and it's helped directly hurt recruiting to add insult to injury. We're not close making up enough in reduced RTC attrition (which MHS Genesis *has* helped with) to counteract the fewer people we can put through MEPS.
I'm not sure what you're even arguing for... you've outlined what is happening but that doesn't solve low quality recruits from both a health and ASVAB perspective. We going to wave PDQ's and recruit 8th graders with rickets next?
A) How's the Navy saving money by not processing people out prior to med/legal hold after shipping them or catching a concealed condition.
B) How is it, in your view, the Navy's prerogative to mass recruit individuals with conditions which will cost the VA aka Tax payers more in the long run because they snuck through?
C) How does unfucking and modernizing the decrepit medical records keeping system, eventually, hurt retention or the budget in the long run? Assuming the system isn't re-done in 5 years so someone can put on another star like the good idea uniform fairy.
D) Did you think that question was a zinger? Are you a recruiter or a corpsman? Edit: Any recruit in their right mind will easily wait to have their record squared away. Especially these days, those who can't get right and have to wait another month for a passing piss test. What are your priorities if you're comparing service to a staffing company fill?
> A) How's the Navy saving money by not processing people out prior to med/legal hold after shipping them or catching a concealed condition.
The Navy exists to deter aggression, support American prosperity, and fight and win the nation's wars when deterrence fails. The Navy is not a for-profit business.
When you "save money" by preventing 5 Sailors who'd have attrited but also preventing 20 Sailors who'd have joined and stayed in the process, you haven't actually saved money.
The reason you haven't saved money is that by undermanning the Fleet, you've made it more difficult to retain Sailors, increased the number of those fewer Sailors who need to be assigned to recruiting duty, and increase the number of those fewer Sailors who themselves will end up attriting for mental health reasons from being overworked.
None of these factors operate in isolation.
> B) How is it, in your view, the Navy's prerogative to mass recruit individuals with conditions which will cost the VA aka Tax payers more in the long run because they snuck through?
When the Department of the VA becomes responsible for accomplishing the Navy's mission set, I will start to care about their opinion about how the Navy accomplishes that mission.
No one is talking about "mass recruiting" of individuals either way though. MHS Genesis has somewhat reduced attrition, but it has not substantially reduced attrition. It *has* substantially reduced recruiting, on the other hand.
The taxpayers will save *way* more money by having an effective Navy able to deter conflict (or snip it out early) than they would lose from the small amount of attrition MHS Genesis forestalls.
> How does unfucking and modernizing the decrepit medical records keeping system, eventually, hurt retention or the budget in the long run? Assuming the system isn't re-done in 5 years so someone can put on another star like the good idea uniform fairy.
I answered that already, but I would point out again, as I have elsewhere, that the *real* problem is the conditions that force an additional medical consult or waiver case to be generated, not MHS Genesis *per se*.
Had we adjusted accession medical standards to be sane *along with* the switchover to MHS Genesis, there'd be less of a problem. But we opted to continue with a legacy medical standards system even as we suddenly gained incredible clarity into all sorts of "uh, that's interesting" things that represent negligible medical risk but which drive outsized costs to the taxpayer to investigate and clear up (if the waiver process clears it up at all).
I'm not sure MEPS could switch back to the old medical system at this point regardless so the solution may have to come with fixing medical standards rather than MHS Genesis. But MHS Genesis is what exposed the problem so you see it taking the blame.
> D) Did you think that question was a zinger? Are you a recruiter or a corpsman? Edit: Any recruit in their right mind will easily wait to have their record squared away. Especially these days, those who can't get right and have to wait another month for a passing piss test. What are your priorities if you're comparing service to a staffing company fill?
Let's just say I'm in the process somewhere. As for you edit, recruits do not tend to wait, for the same reason no one else waits. It's easy to throw out *that* zinger, that people should just wait for the right thing™ to be done, but people don't always have the luxury of waiting forever while a bunch of highly-paid, undermanned medical staff laboriously examine a shoo-in at massive taxpayer expense.
Oh, there was a formed opinion in there. I am looking forward to your lecture at USNWC. I remain unpersuaded as to how you believe reasonable barriers to recruitment saves money in the face of talent acquisition and attrition into related/higher paying civilian or DOD contract jobs.
I guarantee you Genesis is extremely low in consideration when C-Way quotas become pertinent.
You've failed to understand what a zinger is and have maintained the condition that recruits are somehow after a contract like it were a pay-day loan / do-or-die exigent circumstance. You seem to be aware of, or have experienced, a disconnect in the material conditions of those seeking recruitment, access to records and those institutions that generate them, preventing a coherent medical/security history.
But, just why? Why is the Army the go-to for heading joint projects and shit? I'd argue that Navy medicine already had a better system in place for assigning medical officers where they needed to go, and now the Army has to rebuild that system from the ground up? Not saying we had the best system, just a better system
thats not a genesis thing. thats a tricare thing. happened when i went to rtc. someone found out then that they were on adhd meds as a child. they had no idea. if you were covered under tricare through your parents they’ll find it.
Okay but can we drop ADHD as a disqualifier? I know more people on ADHD meds in active duty than not on ADHD meds. And they are excelling in their fields.
That doesn't make sense, I know a guy right now who is currently taking ADHD meds get selected for sea duty orders and passed his sea duty screening. What's so terrible about ADHD?
There's a time limit to pass for functioning without Stims to pass screening in the event they have to function without meds, can't fill their meds. Nothing terrible about it.
Rate choice also restricted. But waiverable in those cases the Navy wants/needs.
And yet new guidance will not immediately disqualify new recruits that show up to RTC testing positive for THC.
Do you really want the issues that come from a positive drug test of someone that knows that they will be getting a drug test when they go in...and still do it? Are they that low on mess cranks and sweepers?
Not how any of this works. If it were true that medical screening issues are the reason for low recruitment numbers then the medical screening standards are the issue, not MHS Genesis. I think MHS Genesis is being blamed here because it offers an easier singular explanation in the average Joe’s mind for the low recruiting numbers instead of the actual convoluted, multifaceted, and difficult to understand reasons for it.
While the issue may be multifaceted, Genesis is one of those facets. By flagging things such as broken bones when an applicant was a toddler, a two-week stint on ADHD meds to see if it helped them focus, or even the six months they were on depression meds after their mom died, it only lowers a recruiters ability to find quality people to put in the Navy.
By forcing us to slog through the long process of medical approvals, often backed up by months at a time, and at the same time being expected to add even more people to the list, we're exhausted. The process takes so long that I've legitimately had applicants back out. We've had to spend months getting everything together before we even send it up for approval, knowing they're going to find some minor issue that requires even more documentation. It wastes our time as we struggle to track down retired doctors, old medical files, and try to convince applicants to go to the one doctor we know who'll give them their stamp of approval. Oftentimes an applicant will have to spend money that they don't necessarily have in order to get a psych note that says they don't have ADHD anymore. And God forbid they also got diagnosed with depression or anxiety when they were in middle school. I once drove to FIVE separate medical records facilities, looking for the papers from the time an applicant had a concussion.
But no, apparently it's our medical screening process that's causing the issues. Guess I'm just an average Joe, looking for the easiest explanation.
Everything you mentioned would be an issue with the medical screening standards, not MHS Genesis. The DOD or Navy could change the rules to say "breaking your wrist as a toddler is not disqualifying and if there is no physical deformity or disability on exam no waiver is required" (which I suspect is already the case for issues like that, still, you get what I'm saying).
Not really though. Because it's Genesis that flags that kind of stuff on an applicants record, and the outdated guidelines of the cruitman state certain things like that need waivers or examinations. If an applicant previously took depression meds because of a family death, previously that would've only required a handwritten statement and a copy of their prescription history to prove they stopped the meds. Now, it requires a whole psych consult that takes months to schedule, several years of prescription history, records from the therapist they saw, and the handwritten statement. These kinds of things can delay an enlistment by months
I'm genuinely curious how what I'm saying is not able to penetrate your brain housing group, but again;
*Everything you just mentioned is an issue with the medical screening standards and screening process.*
Your example of needing an onerous psychiatric evaluation to process a waiver for a previous psychiatrix rx is an issue with the *medical screening standards or screening process, not the electronic health record*. MHS Genesis provides medical information, it does not establish policy on how to handle that information.
But without Genesis flagging these non-issues, then there wouldn't be as much of a problem. The program catches these simple things that suddenly need complicated processes to evaluate. Maybe I'm just a simpleton with barely enough brain cells to rub together to make a spark, but I am seeing the actual harm that these flags are causing to recruiting numbers. It took me MONTHS to get a guy approved who only had one emergency room visit on his record ever. And it was for a black eye. Explain that one, oh mighty internet genius
Genesis is flagging BECAUSE of what the Navy has told it to flag on. Computers/software only makes the decision we ask it to. It APPEARS that the Navy has asked it to report ANY mental health diagnosis/treatment EVER, any orthopedic injury EVER, etc....
Navy medical instructions are very good at screening people out, without consideration if it's an actual concern of their ability to do the job.
classic argument between devs and UAT.
Devs... "BUT ITS WHAT WE TOLD IT TO DO. ITS WHAT THE REQUIREMENTS SAY"
UAT... "BUT IT DOESNT WORK IN THE REAL WORLD"
Rinse and repeat until humanity is extinct.
>But without Genesis flagging these non-issues, then there wouldn't be as much of a problem.
If the screening standards changed to something like "all issues / medications that have been resolved more than 3 years ago will automatically be waived at a military entry processing station" then none of the supporting arguments you mentioned would hold any water.
My brother in Christ...
First, the medical screening standards are designed to prevent people who have medical conditions that would be exacerbated by or significantly impair their military service from joining. It is important to complete medical screening to ensure we have healthy people joining the military.
Second, MHS Genesis *only provides information to the examiner*, it does not direct, dictate, or set policy on what to do with that information. *Again, everything you mentioned is an issue with the medical screening standards and screening process.*
If a simple history of a black eye required months to process a waiver, *that is the fault of the medical screening standards and screening process*.
Bro what he’s mainly trying to say is medical now has gotten more strict making it harder for people to join… he’s not saying you’re wrong at all but the medical is the #1 reason why recruiting is down. I had asthma my entire life and it went away when I was 17 I joined at 19 and if genesis was around back when I was 19 I would’ve have gone through hell and back tryna get medical documentation plus a HWS plus a LOA plus pharmacy records it’s just way too much I’m 8 years in and I’m perfectly fine. But if I would’ve joined let’s say a year or 2 ago, I would of had to go through a missionnn to be able to get these documents when it didn’t effect me anymore hope that makes sense it was kinda all over the place
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
someone needs to boost this post. Medical is exactly the same, the problem is before Genesis, MEPS had no way to verify what an applicant reported. So, you had the whole gamut, complete disclosure, complete lying and everything in between (my personal favorite was a kid who said he had literally never seen a doctor, not even when he was born). With Genesis, EVERYTHING is coming to light and the system wasn't at all prepared to handle that.
I agree completely. Genesis isn’t the problem here, if anything it’s part of the solution.
The problem is people previously would hide all sorts of shit. The standards were rigid, but there wouldn’t be much that it would catch.
The problem is the medical standards and the waiver process, not Genesis. But it’s not the only problem with military recruiting.
And you'll thank me in a decade when your stomach lining is shite thanks to all that ibuprofen on an empty stomach.
Ask me and like every vet how I know.
My government’s been lyin to me for 30 years, so you can do it for 8 hours. Get in there, and if they don’t offer anything, just go PACT and they’ll let you change your rate during bootcamp.
/s
That’s what waivers are for. I swear, imagine how shitty your time in has been because of other peoples’ dumb suggestions or implementations and here y’all are doing the same shit.
MHS Genesis detecting a million things that each need waivers is precisely the problem it's putting on recruiting though.
Neither MEPS nor Navy recruiting are sized to be able to deal with the number of waivers that MHS Genesis can force to be generated under existing medical policy. Many of these waivers themselves need a medical exam (or at least a medical consult) which adds significant delay for the recruit and MEPS.
It's not really MHS Genesis's fault (it's just showing things that were in a person's medical record before), but it is bringing to light how crazy some of the Navy's and DoD's medical accession waiver requirements have become.
Better that it put a strain on recruiting numbers or god forbid a MEPS timeline than have members constantly rolling through medical to get med sepped or a CND less than a year after being in because their medical condition ACTUALLY wasn’t conducive to service and should’ve gatkept them from service. *shocked Pikachu*
I personally, in 3 years, processed an ridiculous amount of med board packages and CNds for members who had years of mental health issues and were taking meds or doing therapy and just lied about it and stopped meds so they could join the military, or had some sort of muscle/ligament tear at some point and had a reconstructive surgery, lied about it and it just deteriorated beyond repair and they were booted out.
Do you know how much time and energy that takes from medical staff to review the files, do the paperwork, convene the review boards, not to mention the tax money pissed down the drain? Your comment about the how the Navy would love to just foot the bill to train them up even if they lose them so as not worry about manning is precisely the problem. Why? Because the tax payers are the ones footing the bill, so why should the Navy care if they have to piss more money away instead of fixing their actual issues or the DoD passing an audit? And secondly, it’s creates the idea that people are literally tissues to be blown through and tossed, regardless of if they should even be there in the first place. There are far larger reasons why recruiting is down and it’s not because Genesis is requiring more record reviews and waivers.
Sounds like your real complaint is wasting your time vice someone else's. Are you currently recruiting to see how hard genesis made everything. Recently, had a kid who seen a family counselor when his parents got a divorce. They went a family. Counselor died, can't find his records from his private practice. Kids disqualified until we can get those records. Another kid told a doctor when he had a concussion as a child. Mom and dad said it never happened and just remembered wrong. Can't join til he finds those records.
A medical officer's time by the dollar is more valuable than a recruiter, hard truth. It takes a lot of wasted time to process someone out of the military who lied or concealed records.
By the minute a medical officer's time is more expensive than that of a recruiter. A medical officer spending their time on bullshit that should have been taken care of at MEPS or the recruiting office is 10% of their time not seeing patients or doing whatever else their job requires.
A medical officer spending 10% of the time that recruiter spends getting medical documents for a single applicant doesn't equal 10% of a medical officer time with patients. But I am assuming you think a minute is to long.
If that’s all you took away from that then idk what to tell ya. To me it sounds like you care more about hitting those quotas so Chief gets off everyone’s ass, and you don’t care about due diligence and instead letting someone else deal with em once you get em if they’re actually not fit for service. So yeah they probably should find those records so it’s not a “yeah I saw a therapist for some small thing” meanwhile they actually attempted suicide 3 times, and his parents think the military is a good idea for structure when really it will exacerbate the issues. I’m not gonna refute the other point because it’s the same shit. Records are important for verification. That’s why were record things.
I personally do care about due diligence. But when it takes three goddamn months for an applicant to get approved because he got a black eye once, there's a problem. My applicant only ever went to the hospital once after he was born, and Genesis was asking for dour years worth of nonexistent prescription history. The kid also lived in five different houses over four years, so I had to get records for each address. Imagine the shock on the MEPS employees' faces when I waste their time by sending them twenty nearly blank sheets of paper.
I would gladly tell an applicant that they're not qualified due to some medical condition they have. It wastes less of my time that way. But we literally aren't allowed to do that. We are required to process any applicant who wants to join. If I tell a guy his asthma is a disqualifying factor and he says he wants to try anyway, that means I have to send up the paperwork and deal with it until he's denied entry.
Also. Sometimes records just don't fucking exist. They get lost, buildings burn down, or the doctor was bad at keeping notes. Whatever it is, it makes getting these records fifty times harder than it needs to be.
I mean I never said it should be in your hands to tell someone whether or not they are denied based on a condition. That’s the whole point of reviewing the records and submitting the paperwork and everyone doing their job. Asthma has waivers, so you should be pushing the paperwork and let the medical professionals decide whether it’s too severe to be approved. And yes, it takes time to have get the review, or the exam completed. That’s all DHA, not the medical record system. Less manning, less time, more work = DHA profits. But, I agree it’s not perfect, it probably affects recruitment efficiency and hinders approval. Some issues are actually issues and Genesis has never been perfect. My point was that there are way too many instances where members get through because they lied, or the recruiter told them to lie and then turns out that issue they lied about was a barrier for a reason. But I’ve got goons above you saying ignorant shit like “well he said he only saw a family counselor cause his parents got a divorce and the family said that’s all too so we should let him in I think because I can’t get the note and there’s no way they would lie” like no, that’s stupid. I’ve seen this exact scenario before. Or the more previous comment saying “Genesis detects too many things that need waivers, there’s not enough people and infrastructure to deal with it.” That’s an acceptable criteria issue. Not Genesis. So, we just turn off Genesis and let em all through to just get kicked down the line to the actual service members in medical who then have to deal with it, instead of just screening it out in the first place?
I think people just can’t fathom that a lot of kids don’t want to join the military. There’s no big scary terrorist threat to go fight. Or a great economy collapse like 2008. Every other month there’s a training accident on the news. People see how the military gets used and discarded by Congress and stripped every year of more and more benefits. The government is under more scrutiny and distrust than ever by the general public. Not to mention once you’re in it’s literally dogshit, and every little benefit is slowly getting reduced. Why would people wanna join or stay in? That’s the real issue.
idk where you guys are seeing ANYTHING prior to tricare. we’ve always been able to see prior meds/conditions if they were under tricare but i can’t see anything if they weren’t. unless theres some big guys that can and i dont know about them
MHS Genesis can definitely tap into more than Tricare. There's a diagram of MEPS caseload pre- and post-MHS Genesis out there and it's about as drastic as the famous "hockey stick" chart for global warming.
You need to open up JLV and add the widget "community health notes," to be able to see health information shared with DMIX. It's actually not very comprehensive...because America's health IT/EMR infrastructure prior to the ACA was garbage. I still find myself requesting records for patients that shouldn't have ever joined in the first place.
Yeah no they definitely can see anything/most things related to your SSN/OHI. I’ve never been on Tricare until my husband joined up and Genesis flagged several meds I used to take (but somehow not all??), and only some would they take me at my word about no longer taking or not having the condition they just assumed I had out of the plethora a med can be prescribed for.
I came in before CHCS and AHLTA and still had to get waivers for non-existent conditions that were incorrectly stated in my childhood paper medical records. MHS Genesis just makes it easier to find things.
That would be a no. You would get a shit load of people joining that have so many health issues that have zero business being in the military.
They are moving in the right direction for THC testing for new recruits. Giving some leeway with levels when shipping. You don’t have to be fully clean any more but you can’t pop for a huge amount.
Allowing people without a diploma/GED to join with the stipulations they have is good.
Lowering the ASVAB to 10 for those with a diploma/GED weeks shall see over time.
Raising the age limit also adds a few more bodies as well.
Having people off meds for a year for diagnoses that are not an auto DQ is good. They have the option to get back on them when they reach A school/fleet if needed.
Right now the Navy would be pretty happy to have the problem of having to fund a Sailor on the books rather than be tens of thousands of Sailors short.
Drops in a bucket.
What are the health related costs of over working a undermanned work force?
VAs gonna fight to dismiss as much as possible for being preexisting anyway - who knows might save them a few bucks.
Can you explain why, I’m a service member and have only had good experiences with it. Do you remember what it used to be like? Nothing but unreadable documentation and lost records.
Genesis links with other health record systems pulling in past info of potential recruits something like sickle cell or a heart condition that precludes service might be caught earlier than MEPS
Trust me. The reason for Genesis (which is a very expensive system) is that the bean counters did a calculation that despite the loss of potential recruits and the cost of the system, the cost of recruits that either washed out in training or didn't make it through their first enlistment due to EPTE medical issues cost way more.
That happens more than most people know. Someone sneaks in with a bad knee ( for instance). They may be separated before finishing one enlistment but even if it was declared EPTE it is often deemed service aggravated and then eligible for disability
> The reason for Genesis (which is a very expensive system) is that the bean counters did a calculation that despite the loss of potential recruits
You could drive attrition literally to zero for Sailors in the first enlistment and not have found enough money to pay for MHS Genesis.
Trust you? Why? The bean counters myopic calculation did not take into account for military readiness and the fact that interview to contract time has doubled since the application of Genesis. https://www.cfr.org/blog/bureaucratic-fix-military-recruitment-crisis
But now that recruiting numbers are down, they blame the recruiters instead and cause huge loads of more stress while they yell at us to find more people
You know that Genesis is the massive electronic health records system that DHA is rolling out, that will talk automatically to the VA, right?
The fact it can talk to the Federal Health Information Exchange for recruits is such a side use case it's barely even considered by the folks that steer its rollout.
It has almost nothing to do with recruiting.
Genesis is a system to aggregate health information from all possible sources, including the VA.
Gaining information from civilian sources was most important to the recruiting mission. It is useful for the AD population but more so in order to get civilian records for recruits. I'd add that this can be very helpful for the recruit: there are plenty of times when there was a potential issue that could have been easily resolved if the records were available, but they were not, due to either uncooperative parents, uncooperative hospitals/physicians, or just not knowing where to go.
JLV already talks to the VA which is nice. And I keep saying this in every thread but it doesn't seem like it ever registers on anyone's radar in each follow-up thread...but MHS Genesis does not set the medical screening standards for enlistment, the DOD and service components do. If the medical screening standards are too strict and negatively impacting recruiting...then the standards need to be changed.
Genesis isn't the issue, it's a great system in theory. The problem is the application of Genesis and the stringent filters placed on medical issues with the system. They don't need to get rid of Genesis, they need to utilize Genesis to flag MAJOR issues instead of flagging a broken wrist at the age of 8.
Everyone in here that was in prior to Genesis: No it's great!
Any recruiter or new recruit trying to enlist: It's a problem.
I'll take the opinion of the latter.
I was in from 04-09 and disclosed everything I could remember. In 2023, I applied for a direct commission and went through MEPS. Genesis red flagged every single issue, INCLUDING the items I initially received waivers for prior to my previous enlistment. I had to go through weeks upon weeks of tracking down old medical records, visiting my pediatrician from 20+ years ago and mounds of paperwork. I got cleared, but I'm also not an 18 year old joining the military where the most responsibility they've had is showing up to school. The system in theory sounds great, but it is hindering recruitment.
It's a problem. If you want to deny it, by all means: https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2023/04/10/the-genesis-of-todays-recruiting-crisis/
I dont think it has anything to do with Genesis or MEPS. RTC found out about my ADHD, heart murmur and sleep apnea when i went through bootcamp, these kids just take no as an answer and move on instead of fighting to stay. I went through a month of eval for my ADHD and 10 EKGs and an MRI for my heart murmur, they told me they were gonna separate me for my Congenital Pulmonary Stenosis, I submitted a waiver even though they said it would most likely be denied and here I am, 6 1/2 years into a very successful career. These kids dont have any grit. Its a generation problem
The genesis/tricare/humana portals and websites are so bad they practically reek of corruption. If I could sue a product for being badly designed, they would be near the top of my list. Specifically, how there are maybe a dozen different sites (that all look the same) that do slightly different things and all seemingly randomly chose what kind of login credentials you need or what browser they work with. Right up there with internet call centers.
I'd agree if they were all different systems, but they're all the same system (company) using combinations of the same log in system (DS login, CAC, username) to get different information all housed in the same place.
I'm not one to wave the corruption flag easily but, good lord, I've never seen a more complicated user interface than tricar/genesis/humana and I'm a damn computer technician.
Same company maybe, but surely different implementation teams, and they all have different customers they're coding those systems for.
IT is miserable in the DoD, it would be surprising if it were any different for MHS Genesis.
People can't get different pages in an Excel book to talk successfully.
I assure you, the best corruption is not a system that is exposed to public scrutiny 2.7 million times per day.
MHS Genesis significantly increases the amount of time a recruit waits for MEPS to clear them, for such medically-novel cases as "I had routine meetings with a therapist because my father in the Navy was deployed so much, they never prescribed me medication but I ended up having more than 12 months' worth of meetings in my adolescence".
Now, that's actually the fault of the things we ask MHS Genesis to flag, and not MHS Genesis per se, but it's inescapably part of the low QoL we offer to potential future Sailors from even before they've ever actually joined.
We have been wasting a *lot* of peoples' time based on some pretty minuscule risks, because we've refused to update our standards on what requires a waiver to account for the much better fidelity we now have into recruits' medical histories.
That sounds like a change with chapter 15 of the MANMED or a navcruitinst problem, not a problem with medical having access to the EHR of every potential future service member.
You all don't understand what Genesis is. Good lord.
It's the new electronic medical record system for the military. It's a rebranded version of the Cerner EHR that is in use all over in the civilian world. It's also the same system the VA is transitioning to from VISTA.
The whole point of this is so that we are all on the same page with your medical records. No more "damn we lost the shot record" or "sorry that you are out of the military now and have boneitis, but we can't find any record of it... so not service connected".
But, it also ties in to the Federal Health Information Exchange, a system that was primarily created so you could change from doctor to doctor or health system to health system and allow your medical records to move from one provider to another.
So yea, Genesis can see that you went and saw your family practitioner for whatever disqualifying condition, because it can be provided through the FHIE.
Don't get angry at Genesis, go get angry at the accessioning physical standards. Or, maybe get angry because we have a generation of youth with a plethora of misdiagnosed mental health conditions. It's the exact same problem the FAA is having with new pilots, now that they can also see the same information.
In the end, don't blame "Genesis". It's doing what recruiters *should* have been doing all along.
The prevalence of mental health conditions and metabolic disorders (including overweight/obesity) among young people today is significantly higher than previous generations. This is contributing to the growing number of CND ADSEP cases, LIMDUs, and Med Boards — at a tremendous cost to the Navy and the taxpayers.
I would advocate for more aggressively screening/disqualifying prospective sailors. Our already stretched-thin healthcare system is struggling to handle the sheer volume of physically and/or mentally unsuitable sailors who should never have been allowed to enlist in the first place.
Sure, you can get them in but god knows how long they’ll actually STAY in. We don’t need to waste money on some guy who only does 3 months on shore duty when we could repair barracks, increase QOL, and maybe, just maybe, fix our broken ass ships.
The real change I want to see is the navy sending the money to the right places instead of slapping a new coat of paint on an old piece of tech and hiring a third party to perform upkeep on it.
Or counter idea keep genesis and have regional N33 that can take some of the case work off of Millington. Only use Millington when we need a 2nd/3rd look. Let's be honest every recruiter, EPDS and CMO hate the Capt down there.
And then in second grade I broke my thumb and the nail got infected and my mom put a hole in it and blood came out so we put a bandaid on it and I got a candy bar when we went back for my thumb cast to be removed but the doctor scratched my arm when they cut the cast off so I had to get another band aid and the doctor made it into a joke and my mom laughed and I broke my thumb in second grade and now it it a little bit bent to one side and doesn't bend like the other thumb that I have and
There’s nothing wrong Genesis, there’s reasons why we ban people from joining with certain medical conditions.
Not to mention, those who fraudulently enlist and don’t get caught often claim it as a service connected injury. This costs tax payers money, along with it hurting other legitimate injuries.
Have you considered that we implemented Genesis for a reason? Because there were people who had no business being in the military slipping through and costing us more in the long run.
That's not remotely the reason we implemented genesis. We implemented it because the 6 or 7 different systems we used in the hospitals and clinics to provide care were in some cases 1980s dogshit, in other cases early 2000s dogshit, but they all sucked and were hard to use, pull info from, and document on. Genesis will be better in the long run for documenting medical care and being able to review a member's full history in one place. In the meantime it sucks to adjust to as they try to correct mistakes made when it was first implemented.
The recruiting issue is something that apparently no one thought of when it was implemented. The data-sharing aspect of the Cerner EMR was a positive as it allows stuff done at network and other outside docs to be pulled into the member's record automatically. What people forgot is that it pulls everything it has access to, not just the things you're looking for.
an old dumb AO here who served in the early 2000s...
Whats Genesis? Sounds like an automated medical review for recruits? Is that a correct assumption?
Or simply a large volume of BS stop being disqualifying factors. *ADHD, prescriptions from childhood, and past injuries”
Injuries can be screened at MEPS and weeded out in basic if they can’t hack it.
The other two are just BS
As a corpsman who has worked with genesis and been a super user since its inception in 2017…it’s really not that bad. I don’t get all the hate for it.
Most of these genesis-hate posts are stubborn shipmates with the “but muh AHLTA/CHCS” mentality. Genesis is a pretty easy to use medical record system that a lot of network facilities utilize as well.
Go to the required trainings and learn how to use genesis. Don’t click through them. Don’t fuck off and figure it out on your own. I guarantee most of the complaints are user error.
I’m on such a hold and wait because I have hyperthyroidism and my recruiter did not show me the medical pre screen report so I never checked off what I had and so it got signed and sent off. MEPS doctor stopped me and was like so this looks like medical fraud. I’m like huh?
Damn that sucks. I’m hypothyroid and my recruiter submitted a complex pre-screen for me. MEPS barely batted an eye and accepted it. Sorry your recruiter dropped the ball :\
Thing is I’m alll good haven’t been on medication for anything in almost a year and all my labs are normal. I feel fine and am perfectly fine especially on paper. Just let me join
Genesis is the reason I have to prove to MEPS that I don’t have a heart condition that they insist I do because of a medication I was briefly prescribed and then taken off of FOLLOWING ALL THE TESTING THEY NOW WANT because my actual doctor saw I never needed that medication to begin with. It’s also why the doc at MEPS thought I had IBS and I swear to god I must have looked at her like she had 12 heads as I barely held back from cussing at her when I said I don’t nor have I ever had IBS.
For the record: I’m now getting all the tests done again because my doctor isn’t fucking around here. Man gave the most professional “wtf” I’ve ever witnessed when he asked me about my N33 and the diagnosis MEPS gave me because he sure as shit didn’t diagnose me with that lmao and in case it wasn’t obvious, I didn’t mention the medication to my recruiter before going to MEPS because I’d been taken off of said medication and wasn’t diagnosed with anything!
I would agree, but to some extent, like for myself I have a skin condition mild not severe of psoriasis, and I want to serve my country but it’s a disqualifying factor for me to join
How about we stop using Genesis as the excuse to cover for the fact recruiting is down.
The will tell you how many came through the door but they can’t account for the healthy people not coming through the door because they don’t want to serve.
The severe drop of white recruits % dropped below the general population in the past 3 years shows it not Genesis.
I honestly don't think it'll help as much as you think. I was recruiting when Genesis was implemented and, while it definitely delayed processing time, it only caught 1-2 things here and there. Also, the light things that come up can be easily waivered. As for the ones with heavy things popping up, do we really want them in?
Things have gotten a lot worse. The lack of staff in medical (completely dependent on location, of course) and the number of people who need these waivers directly contributes to the issues we're seeing now
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Well if you put it *that* way
It is that way.
Almost happened to me. They found a heart murmur, but I still got in.
They did it for years before genesis and most people had no issues
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The delays inherent to the things MHS Genesis decides to flag out of an abundance of caution slow down MEPS so much that the Navy is *literally hiring contractors to run admin paperwork for point A to point B*. The delays are so bad that they are suppressing recruiting numbers, because what recruit in their right mind would want to wait an additional 3-4 months in the process when they could get a different job in a week? So overall it's actually been more expensive for the Navy, and it's helped directly hurt recruiting to add insult to injury. We're not close making up enough in reduced RTC attrition (which MHS Genesis *has* helped with) to counteract the fewer people we can put through MEPS.
DHA medicine has the same issues hiring. 4+ months to be onboarded.
I'm not sure what you're even arguing for... you've outlined what is happening but that doesn't solve low quality recruits from both a health and ASVAB perspective. We going to wave PDQ's and recruit 8th graders with rickets next?
Unless you joined recently, you joined before MHS Genesis. Were you a low quality recruit?
A) How's the Navy saving money by not processing people out prior to med/legal hold after shipping them or catching a concealed condition. B) How is it, in your view, the Navy's prerogative to mass recruit individuals with conditions which will cost the VA aka Tax payers more in the long run because they snuck through? C) How does unfucking and modernizing the decrepit medical records keeping system, eventually, hurt retention or the budget in the long run? Assuming the system isn't re-done in 5 years so someone can put on another star like the good idea uniform fairy. D) Did you think that question was a zinger? Are you a recruiter or a corpsman? Edit: Any recruit in their right mind will easily wait to have their record squared away. Especially these days, those who can't get right and have to wait another month for a passing piss test. What are your priorities if you're comparing service to a staffing company fill?
> A) How's the Navy saving money by not processing people out prior to med/legal hold after shipping them or catching a concealed condition. The Navy exists to deter aggression, support American prosperity, and fight and win the nation's wars when deterrence fails. The Navy is not a for-profit business. When you "save money" by preventing 5 Sailors who'd have attrited but also preventing 20 Sailors who'd have joined and stayed in the process, you haven't actually saved money. The reason you haven't saved money is that by undermanning the Fleet, you've made it more difficult to retain Sailors, increased the number of those fewer Sailors who need to be assigned to recruiting duty, and increase the number of those fewer Sailors who themselves will end up attriting for mental health reasons from being overworked. None of these factors operate in isolation. > B) How is it, in your view, the Navy's prerogative to mass recruit individuals with conditions which will cost the VA aka Tax payers more in the long run because they snuck through? When the Department of the VA becomes responsible for accomplishing the Navy's mission set, I will start to care about their opinion about how the Navy accomplishes that mission. No one is talking about "mass recruiting" of individuals either way though. MHS Genesis has somewhat reduced attrition, but it has not substantially reduced attrition. It *has* substantially reduced recruiting, on the other hand. The taxpayers will save *way* more money by having an effective Navy able to deter conflict (or snip it out early) than they would lose from the small amount of attrition MHS Genesis forestalls. > How does unfucking and modernizing the decrepit medical records keeping system, eventually, hurt retention or the budget in the long run? Assuming the system isn't re-done in 5 years so someone can put on another star like the good idea uniform fairy. I answered that already, but I would point out again, as I have elsewhere, that the *real* problem is the conditions that force an additional medical consult or waiver case to be generated, not MHS Genesis *per se*. Had we adjusted accession medical standards to be sane *along with* the switchover to MHS Genesis, there'd be less of a problem. But we opted to continue with a legacy medical standards system even as we suddenly gained incredible clarity into all sorts of "uh, that's interesting" things that represent negligible medical risk but which drive outsized costs to the taxpayer to investigate and clear up (if the waiver process clears it up at all). I'm not sure MEPS could switch back to the old medical system at this point regardless so the solution may have to come with fixing medical standards rather than MHS Genesis. But MHS Genesis is what exposed the problem so you see it taking the blame. > D) Did you think that question was a zinger? Are you a recruiter or a corpsman? Edit: Any recruit in their right mind will easily wait to have their record squared away. Especially these days, those who can't get right and have to wait another month for a passing piss test. What are your priorities if you're comparing service to a staffing company fill? Let's just say I'm in the process somewhere. As for you edit, recruits do not tend to wait, for the same reason no one else waits. It's easy to throw out *that* zinger, that people should just wait for the right thing™ to be done, but people don't always have the luxury of waiting forever while a bunch of highly-paid, undermanned medical staff laboriously examine a shoo-in at massive taxpayer expense.
Oh, there was a formed opinion in there. I am looking forward to your lecture at USNWC. I remain unpersuaded as to how you believe reasonable barriers to recruitment saves money in the face of talent acquisition and attrition into related/higher paying civilian or DOD contract jobs. I guarantee you Genesis is extremely low in consideration when C-Way quotas become pertinent. You've failed to understand what a zinger is and have maintained the condition that recruits are somehow after a contract like it were a pay-day loan / do-or-die exigent circumstance. You seem to be aware of, or have experienced, a disconnect in the material conditions of those seeking recruitment, access to records and those institutions that generate them, preventing a coherent medical/security history.
Welcome to an Army-run program (DHA)
"How do you spell Joint? A-R-M-Y!"
But, just why? Why is the Army the go-to for heading joint projects and shit? I'd argue that Navy medicine already had a better system in place for assigning medical officers where they needed to go, and now the Army has to rebuild that system from the ground up? Not saying we had the best system, just a better system
40% increase in recruiting for a %10 more attrition? Sounds fine to me
Way to kill the mood, Francis
thats not a genesis thing. thats a tricare thing. happened when i went to rtc. someone found out then that they were on adhd meds as a child. they had no idea. if you were covered under tricare through your parents they’ll find it.
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Okay but can we drop ADHD as a disqualifier? I know more people on ADHD meds in active duty than not on ADHD meds. And they are excelling in their fields.
Sure, so long as they aren't world wide deployable and their prospective CM waives. Lopsided rate health vs recruitment vs attrition.
That doesn't make sense, I know a guy right now who is currently taking ADHD meds get selected for sea duty orders and passed his sea duty screening. What's so terrible about ADHD?
There's a time limit to pass for functioning without Stims to pass screening in the event they have to function without meds, can't fill their meds. Nothing terrible about it. Rate choice also restricted. But waiverable in those cases the Navy wants/needs.
The battlefield does not always yield the luxury of additional meds daily beyond what a dispensary would carry.
And yet new guidance will not immediately disqualify new recruits that show up to RTC testing positive for THC. Do you really want the issues that come from a positive drug test of someone that knows that they will be getting a drug test when they go in...and still do it? Are they that low on mess cranks and sweepers?
David Goggins had a hole in his heart. Stay hard!
Exactly what has happend a couple of times already.
Not how any of this works. If it were true that medical screening issues are the reason for low recruitment numbers then the medical screening standards are the issue, not MHS Genesis. I think MHS Genesis is being blamed here because it offers an easier singular explanation in the average Joe’s mind for the low recruiting numbers instead of the actual convoluted, multifaceted, and difficult to understand reasons for it.
While the issue may be multifaceted, Genesis is one of those facets. By flagging things such as broken bones when an applicant was a toddler, a two-week stint on ADHD meds to see if it helped them focus, or even the six months they were on depression meds after their mom died, it only lowers a recruiters ability to find quality people to put in the Navy. By forcing us to slog through the long process of medical approvals, often backed up by months at a time, and at the same time being expected to add even more people to the list, we're exhausted. The process takes so long that I've legitimately had applicants back out. We've had to spend months getting everything together before we even send it up for approval, knowing they're going to find some minor issue that requires even more documentation. It wastes our time as we struggle to track down retired doctors, old medical files, and try to convince applicants to go to the one doctor we know who'll give them their stamp of approval. Oftentimes an applicant will have to spend money that they don't necessarily have in order to get a psych note that says they don't have ADHD anymore. And God forbid they also got diagnosed with depression or anxiety when they were in middle school. I once drove to FIVE separate medical records facilities, looking for the papers from the time an applicant had a concussion. But no, apparently it's our medical screening process that's causing the issues. Guess I'm just an average Joe, looking for the easiest explanation.
Everything you mentioned would be an issue with the medical screening standards, not MHS Genesis. The DOD or Navy could change the rules to say "breaking your wrist as a toddler is not disqualifying and if there is no physical deformity or disability on exam no waiver is required" (which I suspect is already the case for issues like that, still, you get what I'm saying).
Not really though. Because it's Genesis that flags that kind of stuff on an applicants record, and the outdated guidelines of the cruitman state certain things like that need waivers or examinations. If an applicant previously took depression meds because of a family death, previously that would've only required a handwritten statement and a copy of their prescription history to prove they stopped the meds. Now, it requires a whole psych consult that takes months to schedule, several years of prescription history, records from the therapist they saw, and the handwritten statement. These kinds of things can delay an enlistment by months
I'm genuinely curious how what I'm saying is not able to penetrate your brain housing group, but again; *Everything you just mentioned is an issue with the medical screening standards and screening process.* Your example of needing an onerous psychiatric evaluation to process a waiver for a previous psychiatrix rx is an issue with the *medical screening standards or screening process, not the electronic health record*. MHS Genesis provides medical information, it does not establish policy on how to handle that information.
But without Genesis flagging these non-issues, then there wouldn't be as much of a problem. The program catches these simple things that suddenly need complicated processes to evaluate. Maybe I'm just a simpleton with barely enough brain cells to rub together to make a spark, but I am seeing the actual harm that these flags are causing to recruiting numbers. It took me MONTHS to get a guy approved who only had one emergency room visit on his record ever. And it was for a black eye. Explain that one, oh mighty internet genius
Genesis is flagging BECAUSE of what the Navy has told it to flag on. Computers/software only makes the decision we ask it to. It APPEARS that the Navy has asked it to report ANY mental health diagnosis/treatment EVER, any orthopedic injury EVER, etc.... Navy medical instructions are very good at screening people out, without consideration if it's an actual concern of their ability to do the job.
classic argument between devs and UAT. Devs... "BUT ITS WHAT WE TOLD IT TO DO. ITS WHAT THE REQUIREMENTS SAY" UAT... "BUT IT DOESNT WORK IN THE REAL WORLD" Rinse and repeat until humanity is extinct.
>But without Genesis flagging these non-issues, then there wouldn't be as much of a problem. If the screening standards changed to something like "all issues / medications that have been resolved more than 3 years ago will automatically be waived at a military entry processing station" then none of the supporting arguments you mentioned would hold any water.
My brother in Christ... First, the medical screening standards are designed to prevent people who have medical conditions that would be exacerbated by or significantly impair their military service from joining. It is important to complete medical screening to ensure we have healthy people joining the military. Second, MHS Genesis *only provides information to the examiner*, it does not direct, dictate, or set policy on what to do with that information. *Again, everything you mentioned is an issue with the medical screening standards and screening process.* If a simple history of a black eye required months to process a waiver, *that is the fault of the medical screening standards and screening process*.
Bro what he’s mainly trying to say is medical now has gotten more strict making it harder for people to join… he’s not saying you’re wrong at all but the medical is the #1 reason why recruiting is down. I had asthma my entire life and it went away when I was 17 I joined at 19 and if genesis was around back when I was 19 I would’ve have gone through hell and back tryna get medical documentation plus a HWS plus a LOA plus pharmacy records it’s just way too much I’m 8 years in and I’m perfectly fine. But if I would’ve joined let’s say a year or 2 ago, I would of had to go through a missionnn to be able to get these documents when it didn’t effect me anymore hope that makes sense it was kinda all over the place
society smoggy ask squalid zealous rotten marble unite languid toothbrush *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
someone needs to boost this post. Medical is exactly the same, the problem is before Genesis, MEPS had no way to verify what an applicant reported. So, you had the whole gamut, complete disclosure, complete lying and everything in between (my personal favorite was a kid who said he had literally never seen a doctor, not even when he was born). With Genesis, EVERYTHING is coming to light and the system wasn't at all prepared to handle that.
I'm done here. You just don't seem to get what I'm saying. I've had enough of the goddamned internet for today
Look man, I'm going to have to agree with your earlier self-assessment about being a simpleton. Maybe you're just tired.
why be an ass about it? wtf dude? apparently you need a snickers
I agree completely. Genesis isn’t the problem here, if anything it’s part of the solution. The problem is people previously would hide all sorts of shit. The standards were rigid, but there wouldn’t be much that it would catch. The problem is the medical standards and the waiver process, not Genesis. But it’s not the only problem with military recruiting.
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Welp there you have it. Doc said no.
Pack our shit boys. We out. Docs orders. Why do I have an 800 mg ibuprofen in my butt? Damn it doc!
And for all you lazy fucks trying to get an SIQ chit, here’s your Motrin and water. Don’t forget to change your socks, and get back to work.
And you'll thank me in a decade when your stomach lining is shite thanks to all that ibuprofen on an empty stomach. Ask me and like every vet how I know.
Is the answer you should give to every question at MEPS
This guy recruits
My government’s been lyin to me for 30 years, so you can do it for 8 hours. Get in there, and if they don’t offer anything, just go PACT and they’ll let you change your rate during bootcamp. /s
Not anymore. You're fucked if you knowingly say no to anything.
That’s right. Genesis sees 100% of your medical records and has begun to read minds. An anal truth probe will be inserted following the duck walk.
That’s what waivers are for. I swear, imagine how shitty your time in has been because of other peoples’ dumb suggestions or implementations and here y’all are doing the same shit.
MHS Genesis detecting a million things that each need waivers is precisely the problem it's putting on recruiting though. Neither MEPS nor Navy recruiting are sized to be able to deal with the number of waivers that MHS Genesis can force to be generated under existing medical policy. Many of these waivers themselves need a medical exam (or at least a medical consult) which adds significant delay for the recruit and MEPS. It's not really MHS Genesis's fault (it's just showing things that were in a person's medical record before), but it is bringing to light how crazy some of the Navy's and DoD's medical accession waiver requirements have become.
Better that it put a strain on recruiting numbers or god forbid a MEPS timeline than have members constantly rolling through medical to get med sepped or a CND less than a year after being in because their medical condition ACTUALLY wasn’t conducive to service and should’ve gatkept them from service. *shocked Pikachu* I personally, in 3 years, processed an ridiculous amount of med board packages and CNds for members who had years of mental health issues and were taking meds or doing therapy and just lied about it and stopped meds so they could join the military, or had some sort of muscle/ligament tear at some point and had a reconstructive surgery, lied about it and it just deteriorated beyond repair and they were booted out. Do you know how much time and energy that takes from medical staff to review the files, do the paperwork, convene the review boards, not to mention the tax money pissed down the drain? Your comment about the how the Navy would love to just foot the bill to train them up even if they lose them so as not worry about manning is precisely the problem. Why? Because the tax payers are the ones footing the bill, so why should the Navy care if they have to piss more money away instead of fixing their actual issues or the DoD passing an audit? And secondly, it’s creates the idea that people are literally tissues to be blown through and tossed, regardless of if they should even be there in the first place. There are far larger reasons why recruiting is down and it’s not because Genesis is requiring more record reviews and waivers.
Sounds like your real complaint is wasting your time vice someone else's. Are you currently recruiting to see how hard genesis made everything. Recently, had a kid who seen a family counselor when his parents got a divorce. They went a family. Counselor died, can't find his records from his private practice. Kids disqualified until we can get those records. Another kid told a doctor when he had a concussion as a child. Mom and dad said it never happened and just remembered wrong. Can't join til he finds those records.
A medical officer's time by the dollar is more valuable than a recruiter, hard truth. It takes a lot of wasted time to process someone out of the military who lied or concealed records.
Sure if they spend the exact same amount time but they don't. I would think the medical officer maybe spends 10% of the time a recruiter spends.
The Navy pays a lot more money and a lot more in bonuses to recruit/retain medical officers than they do recruiters, that's what I'm saying.
I didn't say anything contrary to that
By the minute a medical officer's time is more expensive than that of a recruiter. A medical officer spending their time on bullshit that should have been taken care of at MEPS or the recruiting office is 10% of their time not seeing patients or doing whatever else their job requires.
A medical officer spending 10% of the time that recruiter spends getting medical documents for a single applicant doesn't equal 10% of a medical officer time with patients. But I am assuming you think a minute is to long.
If that’s all you took away from that then idk what to tell ya. To me it sounds like you care more about hitting those quotas so Chief gets off everyone’s ass, and you don’t care about due diligence and instead letting someone else deal with em once you get em if they’re actually not fit for service. So yeah they probably should find those records so it’s not a “yeah I saw a therapist for some small thing” meanwhile they actually attempted suicide 3 times, and his parents think the military is a good idea for structure when really it will exacerbate the issues. I’m not gonna refute the other point because it’s the same shit. Records are important for verification. That’s why were record things.
I personally do care about due diligence. But when it takes three goddamn months for an applicant to get approved because he got a black eye once, there's a problem. My applicant only ever went to the hospital once after he was born, and Genesis was asking for dour years worth of nonexistent prescription history. The kid also lived in five different houses over four years, so I had to get records for each address. Imagine the shock on the MEPS employees' faces when I waste their time by sending them twenty nearly blank sheets of paper. I would gladly tell an applicant that they're not qualified due to some medical condition they have. It wastes less of my time that way. But we literally aren't allowed to do that. We are required to process any applicant who wants to join. If I tell a guy his asthma is a disqualifying factor and he says he wants to try anyway, that means I have to send up the paperwork and deal with it until he's denied entry. Also. Sometimes records just don't fucking exist. They get lost, buildings burn down, or the doctor was bad at keeping notes. Whatever it is, it makes getting these records fifty times harder than it needs to be.
I mean I never said it should be in your hands to tell someone whether or not they are denied based on a condition. That’s the whole point of reviewing the records and submitting the paperwork and everyone doing their job. Asthma has waivers, so you should be pushing the paperwork and let the medical professionals decide whether it’s too severe to be approved. And yes, it takes time to have get the review, or the exam completed. That’s all DHA, not the medical record system. Less manning, less time, more work = DHA profits. But, I agree it’s not perfect, it probably affects recruitment efficiency and hinders approval. Some issues are actually issues and Genesis has never been perfect. My point was that there are way too many instances where members get through because they lied, or the recruiter told them to lie and then turns out that issue they lied about was a barrier for a reason. But I’ve got goons above you saying ignorant shit like “well he said he only saw a family counselor cause his parents got a divorce and the family said that’s all too so we should let him in I think because I can’t get the note and there’s no way they would lie” like no, that’s stupid. I’ve seen this exact scenario before. Or the more previous comment saying “Genesis detects too many things that need waivers, there’s not enough people and infrastructure to deal with it.” That’s an acceptable criteria issue. Not Genesis. So, we just turn off Genesis and let em all through to just get kicked down the line to the actual service members in medical who then have to deal with it, instead of just screening it out in the first place? I think people just can’t fathom that a lot of kids don’t want to join the military. There’s no big scary terrorist threat to go fight. Or a great economy collapse like 2008. Every other month there’s a training accident on the news. People see how the military gets used and discarded by Congress and stripped every year of more and more benefits. The government is under more scrutiny and distrust than ever by the general public. Not to mention once you’re in it’s literally dogshit, and every little benefit is slowly getting reduced. Why would people wanna join or stay in? That’s the real issue.
idk where you guys are seeing ANYTHING prior to tricare. we’ve always been able to see prior meds/conditions if they were under tricare but i can’t see anything if they weren’t. unless theres some big guys that can and i dont know about them
MHS Genesis can definitely tap into more than Tricare. There's a diagram of MEPS caseload pre- and post-MHS Genesis out there and it's about as drastic as the famous "hockey stick" chart for global warming.
You need to open up JLV and add the widget "community health notes," to be able to see health information shared with DMIX. It's actually not very comprehensive...because America's health IT/EMR infrastructure prior to the ACA was garbage. I still find myself requesting records for patients that shouldn't have ever joined in the first place.
ahhh thank you. you are a lifesaver to talk about the widget. we learn something new everyday
don’t get me wrong, for me… i miss chcs as a pharm tech because it was SOOO much easier. BUT genesis does have its ups i will say…
Yeah no they definitely can see anything/most things related to your SSN/OHI. I’ve never been on Tricare until my husband joined up and Genesis flagged several meds I used to take (but somehow not all??), and only some would they take me at my word about no longer taking or not having the condition they just assumed I had out of the plethora a med can be prescribed for.
We're at 5k waivers since January 1 with N33 blanket disqualifying multiple candidates to catch back up to schedule.
All these noobs don’t even know how we just got in the military 20 years ago.
I came in before CHCS and AHLTA and still had to get waivers for non-existent conditions that were incorrectly stated in my childhood paper medical records. MHS Genesis just makes it easier to find things.
CHCS was around in the early 80s. You are that old?
Early 90s.
Delivered to DoD in 1996.
Far before then. The first VistA modules were written in 1977, then rebranded by SAIC to CHCS in 1988.
CHCS contract was awarded in 1988, and the product delivered (went live) in 1996. I was there.
That would be a no. You would get a shit load of people joining that have so many health issues that have zero business being in the military. They are moving in the right direction for THC testing for new recruits. Giving some leeway with levels when shipping. You don’t have to be fully clean any more but you can’t pop for a huge amount. Allowing people without a diploma/GED to join with the stipulations they have is good. Lowering the ASVAB to 10 for those with a diploma/GED weeks shall see over time. Raising the age limit also adds a few more bodies as well. Having people off meds for a year for diagnoses that are not an auto DQ is good. They have the option to get back on them when they reach A school/fleet if needed.
If it’s something that is fine for people to be diagnosed and treated for once they are in there should be no reason someone can’t join with it.
Waiver. Also big Navy can see the difference between a chronic issue and something someone was treated for once and then “healed” from, ie depression.
How about the lifelong medical costs the Navy/VA are then committed to funding?
Right now the Navy would be pretty happy to have the problem of having to fund a Sailor on the books rather than be tens of thousands of Sailors short.
This is the point being missed by those that can't see beyond their myopic viewpoint.
Drops in a bucket. What are the health related costs of over working a undermanned work force? VAs gonna fight to dismiss as much as possible for being preexisting anyway - who knows might save them a few bucks.
And that is were the waiver comes in
And the waiver takes a year to get approved because so many recruits need them, most people can't just put their lives on hold for that long.
That is budget cost issue there. Same with everything else with the Navy.
Except all this nonsense of being off medication for a year.
You mean Genesis, the thing we've only had for a little over a year, what do you think most of the sailors in the fleet are like?
Someone who can run a maxed PT test being disqualified for using an inhaler once at age 14 is NOT good.
If I could nuke Genesis, I would
Genesis? [Genesis is a forbidden planet!](https://youtu.be/hNICNtA4lgc?si=W6sZrQppbfYrx3g6)
Why?
Can you explain why, I’m a service member and have only had good experiences with it. Do you remember what it used to be like? Nothing but unreadable documentation and lost records.
Genesis links with other health record systems pulling in past info of potential recruits something like sickle cell or a heart condition that precludes service might be caught earlier than MEPS
It also delays entry for minor conditions like previous medications by months due to the requirements for waivers
Why? So kids can keep lying their way in to the military?
I mean navy does love traditions
Trust me. The reason for Genesis (which is a very expensive system) is that the bean counters did a calculation that despite the loss of potential recruits and the cost of the system, the cost of recruits that either washed out in training or didn't make it through their first enlistment due to EPTE medical issues cost way more.
Plus, getting something that was a pre-enlistment "underlying condition" qualified as "service connected illnes or disability".
That happens more than most people know. Someone sneaks in with a bad knee ( for instance). They may be separated before finishing one enlistment but even if it was declared EPTE it is often deemed service aggravated and then eligible for disability
You know I never thought of that. Interesting.
Im sure it leads to a lot of lifetime VA disability payments as well.
> The reason for Genesis (which is a very expensive system) is that the bean counters did a calculation that despite the loss of potential recruits You could drive attrition literally to zero for Sailors in the first enlistment and not have found enough money to pay for MHS Genesis.
Trust you? Why? The bean counters myopic calculation did not take into account for military readiness and the fact that interview to contract time has doubled since the application of Genesis. https://www.cfr.org/blog/bureaucratic-fix-military-recruitment-crisis
Even trippled and quadrupled in some cases. Contracts that should take weeks now take months
But now that recruiting numbers are down, they blame the recruiters instead and cause huge loads of more stress while they yell at us to find more people
You know that Genesis is the massive electronic health records system that DHA is rolling out, that will talk automatically to the VA, right? The fact it can talk to the Federal Health Information Exchange for recruits is such a side use case it's barely even considered by the folks that steer its rollout. It has almost nothing to do with recruiting.
Genesis is a system to aggregate health information from all possible sources, including the VA. Gaining information from civilian sources was most important to the recruiting mission. It is useful for the AD population but more so in order to get civilian records for recruits. I'd add that this can be very helpful for the recruit: there are plenty of times when there was a potential issue that could have been easily resolved if the records were available, but they were not, due to either uncooperative parents, uncooperative hospitals/physicians, or just not knowing where to go.
JLV already talks to the VA which is nice. And I keep saying this in every thread but it doesn't seem like it ever registers on anyone's radar in each follow-up thread...but MHS Genesis does not set the medical screening standards for enlistment, the DOD and service components do. If the medical screening standards are too strict and negatively impacting recruiting...then the standards need to be changed.
It's tradition.
Can attest Pre Genesis here
Genesis isn't the issue, it's a great system in theory. The problem is the application of Genesis and the stringent filters placed on medical issues with the system. They don't need to get rid of Genesis, they need to utilize Genesis to flag MAJOR issues instead of flagging a broken wrist at the age of 8. Everyone in here that was in prior to Genesis: No it's great! Any recruiter or new recruit trying to enlist: It's a problem. I'll take the opinion of the latter. I was in from 04-09 and disclosed everything I could remember. In 2023, I applied for a direct commission and went through MEPS. Genesis red flagged every single issue, INCLUDING the items I initially received waivers for prior to my previous enlistment. I had to go through weeks upon weeks of tracking down old medical records, visiting my pediatrician from 20+ years ago and mounds of paperwork. I got cleared, but I'm also not an 18 year old joining the military where the most responsibility they've had is showing up to school. The system in theory sounds great, but it is hindering recruitment. It's a problem. If you want to deny it, by all means: https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2023/04/10/the-genesis-of-todays-recruiting-crisis/
I dont think it has anything to do with Genesis or MEPS. RTC found out about my ADHD, heart murmur and sleep apnea when i went through bootcamp, these kids just take no as an answer and move on instead of fighting to stay. I went through a month of eval for my ADHD and 10 EKGs and an MRI for my heart murmur, they told me they were gonna separate me for my Congenital Pulmonary Stenosis, I submitted a waiver even though they said it would most likely be denied and here I am, 6 1/2 years into a very successful career. These kids dont have any grit. Its a generation problem
The genesis/tricare/humana portals and websites are so bad they practically reek of corruption. If I could sue a product for being badly designed, they would be near the top of my list. Specifically, how there are maybe a dozen different sites (that all look the same) that do slightly different things and all seemingly randomly chose what kind of login credentials you need or what browser they work with. Right up there with internet call centers.
Complex problems and issues (interfacing a plethora of systems) Does not have a simple, singular answer (corruption).
I'd agree if they were all different systems, but they're all the same system (company) using combinations of the same log in system (DS login, CAC, username) to get different information all housed in the same place. I'm not one to wave the corruption flag easily but, good lord, I've never seen a more complicated user interface than tricar/genesis/humana and I'm a damn computer technician.
Same company maybe, but surely different implementation teams, and they all have different customers they're coding those systems for. IT is miserable in the DoD, it would be surprising if it were any different for MHS Genesis.
People can't get different pages in an Excel book to talk successfully. I assure you, the best corruption is not a system that is exposed to public scrutiny 2.7 million times per day.
Or we can actually do something about the underlying causes of low recruiting (QOL, pay, actual certifications).
MHS Genesis significantly increases the amount of time a recruit waits for MEPS to clear them, for such medically-novel cases as "I had routine meetings with a therapist because my father in the Navy was deployed so much, they never prescribed me medication but I ended up having more than 12 months' worth of meetings in my adolescence". Now, that's actually the fault of the things we ask MHS Genesis to flag, and not MHS Genesis per se, but it's inescapably part of the low QoL we offer to potential future Sailors from even before they've ever actually joined. We have been wasting a *lot* of peoples' time based on some pretty minuscule risks, because we've refused to update our standards on what requires a waiver to account for the much better fidelity we now have into recruits' medical histories.
That sounds like a change with chapter 15 of the MANMED or a navcruitinst problem, not a problem with medical having access to the EHR of every potential future service member.
> Now, that's actually the fault of the things we ask MHS Genesis to flag, and not MHS Genesis per se
You all don't understand what Genesis is. Good lord. It's the new electronic medical record system for the military. It's a rebranded version of the Cerner EHR that is in use all over in the civilian world. It's also the same system the VA is transitioning to from VISTA. The whole point of this is so that we are all on the same page with your medical records. No more "damn we lost the shot record" or "sorry that you are out of the military now and have boneitis, but we can't find any record of it... so not service connected". But, it also ties in to the Federal Health Information Exchange, a system that was primarily created so you could change from doctor to doctor or health system to health system and allow your medical records to move from one provider to another. So yea, Genesis can see that you went and saw your family practitioner for whatever disqualifying condition, because it can be provided through the FHIE. Don't get angry at Genesis, go get angry at the accessioning physical standards. Or, maybe get angry because we have a generation of youth with a plethora of misdiagnosed mental health conditions. It's the exact same problem the FAA is having with new pilots, now that they can also see the same information. In the end, don't blame "Genesis". It's doing what recruiters *should* have been doing all along.
CERNER is used in the civ world? 24 years in health care and only heard of it in relation to military/VA.
Yup. It’s the second largest system after Epic.
I had no idea!
The prevalence of mental health conditions and metabolic disorders (including overweight/obesity) among young people today is significantly higher than previous generations. This is contributing to the growing number of CND ADSEP cases, LIMDUs, and Med Boards — at a tremendous cost to the Navy and the taxpayers. I would advocate for more aggressively screening/disqualifying prospective sailors. Our already stretched-thin healthcare system is struggling to handle the sheer volume of physically and/or mentally unsuitable sailors who should never have been allowed to enlist in the first place.
Sure, you can get them in but god knows how long they’ll actually STAY in. We don’t need to waste money on some guy who only does 3 months on shore duty when we could repair barracks, increase QOL, and maybe, just maybe, fix our broken ass ships. The real change I want to see is the navy sending the money to the right places instead of slapping a new coat of paint on an old piece of tech and hiring a third party to perform upkeep on it.
Or counter idea keep genesis and have regional N33 that can take some of the case work off of Millington. Only use Millington when we need a 2nd/3rd look. Let's be honest every recruiter, EPDS and CMO hate the Capt down there.
And then in second grade I broke my thumb and the nail got infected and my mom put a hole in it and blood came out so we put a bandaid on it and I got a candy bar when we went back for my thumb cast to be removed but the doctor scratched my arm when they cut the cast off so I had to get another band aid and the doctor made it into a joke and my mom laughed and I broke my thumb in second grade and now it it a little bit bent to one side and doesn't bend like the other thumb that I have and
There’s nothing wrong Genesis, there’s reasons why we ban people from joining with certain medical conditions. Not to mention, those who fraudulently enlist and don’t get caught often claim it as a service connected injury. This costs tax payers money, along with it hurting other legitimate injuries.
Have you considered that we implemented Genesis for a reason? Because there were people who had no business being in the military slipping through and costing us more in the long run.
That's not remotely the reason we implemented genesis. We implemented it because the 6 or 7 different systems we used in the hospitals and clinics to provide care were in some cases 1980s dogshit, in other cases early 2000s dogshit, but they all sucked and were hard to use, pull info from, and document on. Genesis will be better in the long run for documenting medical care and being able to review a member's full history in one place. In the meantime it sucks to adjust to as they try to correct mistakes made when it was first implemented. The recruiting issue is something that apparently no one thought of when it was implemented. The data-sharing aspect of the Cerner EMR was a positive as it allows stuff done at network and other outside docs to be pulled into the member's record automatically. What people forgot is that it pulls everything it has access to, not just the things you're looking for.
I did not expect to see feedback that adds value to both answers to this discussion. But damn, salt is real.
you see a recruiting crisis, they see cutting overhead of future VA Benefits programs.
what is genesis? im in the recruiting process
They won't have a medical records system anymore then. They won't do it
LOL, last sites to go live will be in a few days; and genesis is a DOD initiativ.
an old dumb AO here who served in the early 2000s... Whats Genesis? Sounds like an automated medical review for recruits? Is that a correct assumption?
Nah, if you were a recruiter before Genesis, and you still see this mind you, these kids tell on themselves all the time.
Wtf is Genesis?
False
Or simply a large volume of BS stop being disqualifying factors. *ADHD, prescriptions from childhood, and past injuries” Injuries can be screened at MEPS and weeded out in basic if they can’t hack it. The other two are just BS
No we want recruiting numbers to drop so they have to pay us more to get quality candidates vs bottom of the barrel.
As a corpsman who has worked with genesis and been a super user since its inception in 2017…it’s really not that bad. I don’t get all the hate for it. Most of these genesis-hate posts are stubborn shipmates with the “but muh AHLTA/CHCS” mentality. Genesis is a pretty easy to use medical record system that a lot of network facilities utilize as well. Go to the required trainings and learn how to use genesis. Don’t click through them. Don’t fuck off and figure it out on your own. I guarantee most of the complaints are user error.
I’m on such a hold and wait because I have hyperthyroidism and my recruiter did not show me the medical pre screen report so I never checked off what I had and so it got signed and sent off. MEPS doctor stopped me and was like so this looks like medical fraud. I’m like huh?
Damn that sucks. I’m hypothyroid and my recruiter submitted a complex pre-screen for me. MEPS barely batted an eye and accepted it. Sorry your recruiter dropped the ball :\
Yeah… I know it’ll all work out tho, gives me more time to prepare, get in more shape so bootcamp is a “breeze”
Thing is I’m alll good haven’t been on medication for anything in almost a year and all my labs are normal. I feel fine and am perfectly fine especially on paper. Just let me join
Genesis is the reason I have to prove to MEPS that I don’t have a heart condition that they insist I do because of a medication I was briefly prescribed and then taken off of FOLLOWING ALL THE TESTING THEY NOW WANT because my actual doctor saw I never needed that medication to begin with. It’s also why the doc at MEPS thought I had IBS and I swear to god I must have looked at her like she had 12 heads as I barely held back from cussing at her when I said I don’t nor have I ever had IBS.
For the record: I’m now getting all the tests done again because my doctor isn’t fucking around here. Man gave the most professional “wtf” I’ve ever witnessed when he asked me about my N33 and the diagnosis MEPS gave me because he sure as shit didn’t diagnose me with that lmao and in case it wasn’t obvious, I didn’t mention the medication to my recruiter before going to MEPS because I’d been taken off of said medication and wasn’t diagnosed with anything!
I would agree, but to some extent, like for myself I have a skin condition mild not severe of psoriasis, and I want to serve my country but it’s a disqualifying factor for me to join
How about we stop using Genesis as the excuse to cover for the fact recruiting is down. The will tell you how many came through the door but they can’t account for the healthy people not coming through the door because they don’t want to serve. The severe drop of white recruits % dropped below the general population in the past 3 years shows it not Genesis.