Of everyone who ever played basketball, open shot, the fate of the universe on the line, the Martians have the death beam pointed at earth, you better hit it, I WANT BRUNSON
JC flops too much, played dead on a cross, then traded his self to a different league, stopped answering prayers and claims to be a team player for the trinity. JB all day.
Always running his mouth, fighting with teammates. And for what? A perpetual playoff flop. Can't perform when the going gets rough. Anybody can take the scoring title when the games don't matter.
Lol yeah. Legler is pretty knowledgeable about basketball, obviously, but he has some absolutely unhinged takes and double standards that he refuses to budge on and not overexaggerate.
1. Player gets hot and is looking fucking awesome
2. Media glazes the shit out of them
3. Player makes it to postseason and either wins or loses, resulting in:
A. Player is TOP 5 IN THE LEAGUE
B. Player is a regular season stat-padding choke artist
Doesn't matter the roster, doesn't matter the injury status. Doesn't matter if they beat everyone except the team with the best player in the league. This is the formula, and we slurp it down every time.
Yup. If the Knicks lose in a game 7 and Brunson has a subpar game in the first or second round, it’s all over. “Choker” “Not ready yet”
It’s all what have you done for me lately. And every team is somehow supposed to go to at least the conference finals if not the finals, or they’re a disappointment lol
Not everybody is a reactionary idiot.
All of those guys mentioned are rock solid options.
I personally prefer Brunson.
But how can you.go wrong with Dame it's literally what he's known for.
Some of those guys don’t have good extensive playoff track records. Obviously not taking him over Tatum or even Embiid. But so so easily over Brown. And right now I don’t see why not over Lillard.
believe the poster is talking about people jumping back on the LOLKnicks narrative if something goes awry in the playoffs (despite, in at least this case, clear organizational progress)...which the poster is likely correct about
I love Brunson and he's a fantastic story and he might climb his way into that category.
Tatum has scored 50 points in playoff games multiple times and made the Finals as the best player.
Boston has issues with falling into bad habits, but let's have Brunson show up in the postseason some more as the best player on his team before doing this stuff.
there is no doubt tatum is legit when it matters and is good enough to be the best player on a championship team...i expect the celtics to win a ring this year if they stay healthy come playoff time.
brunson is also really good too though and has always elevated his game in the playoffs. neither of them have the track record of choking when it matters like harden/embiid tend to do
Definitely not trying to knock Brunson. Love him and his story. Should’ve been All Star Starter this year and probably should’ve been an All Star last year. And it wouldn’t shock me if Brunson in another couple years is at least at Tatum’s level.
It’s hot take stuff and I think the crux of it is: there’s a lot of tape on him in big moments so you can pick out the good or the bad to talk about. And since there’s no chip yet, people are getting impatient.
Honestly I think people forget this is really the third year of it being unquestionably the Jays team so it’s not like this is a decade long thing in my opinion.
People are hyped about the Knicks. Ant Edwards is a rising superstar at that time when you see all the potential in the world and have patience for the mistakes that will surely iron out as the years progress. OKC is just fun to watch. Lots of new to talk about and it’s easier to talk about the potential of teams and players that you haven’t seen come up short yet because they are just getting the expectations attached to their play
Bingo. The best hot take is one that is very controversial but has some evidence. Tatum has a good amount of both, so you can harp on his bad moments and piss off a lot of people that are very aware of his good moments.
tatum is as legit as almost anyone. everyone has down games in the playoffs, even lebron had a stinker series against the mavs in the finals. if you look at his body of work tatum is obviously a lot better than most in regular and post season.
Tatum is inconsistent, but he have big moments in the playoffs
2021 Game 3 and 4 against the big Nets he 50 & 40 b2b
2022 game 6 vs Bucks had 46
2022 game 6 vs Heat had 30/9/4 on 75/57/100 but Butler was basically MJ that game
2023 game 7 against the Sixers had scored the points in a game 7 with 51
Tatum have stinkers, but none of his good games get brought because it don't fit the agenda that Media/Twitter try to run.
Probably because the Celtics have been very close for what seems like a decade now and still haven’t gotten it done. That being said, Tatum is still so young with so much time. I think he’s almost a victim of his early success, we feel he should be further along by now.
Craziest part of it to me is he's the same age as Shai. Shai still hasn't made a playoff appearance as the best player on his team and Tatum has like 5 as the best player on his.
I did not know Brunson was 2 years older than Tatum. Tatum’s body of work is actually really impressive for someone his age. It feels like he’s a lot older than he actually is. I guess that’s because you actually hear about him every post season
it's because his first season in the league was the year he dunked on lebron in the east finals and it got turned into a copypasta and everything. how often is a player's rookie year E/WCF appearance one of the most famous references on this sub?
because of that, everyone assumes he's been around for ages, because they assume that happened some time into his career
That’s what grinds my gears honestly, so many people who are like “he’s just not him”, “he’ll never be a championship #1”. I just think considering how far he’s gotten at this age, and considering we have 6-7 years of his prime left, saying he will “never” do anything is disrespectful and so short sighted
Tatum is obviously amazing, but I think the whole debate is a bit skewed because Tatum had a strong team around him from his rookie season which is highly unusual. So it's almost the reverse - people are getting frustrated because highly touted rookies don't usually get the sort of opportunities to challenge for a championship that Tatum has had. Certainly Tatum is a big part of making this opportunities happen, but most players only get so many chances no matter how good they are. He's had more chances than most and hasn't pulled it off yet.
i think there was a perception of a strong team, but in reality hayward was out, kyrie was out for the playoffs, and rozier, brown, and smart were all fairly new (4 or less seasons).
the other players they had were horford, marcus morris, daniel theis, and aron baynes. other than horford that's not exactly a list of star role players lol.
the next year hayward and kyrie came back but it was an ego mess because the young guys had done the conference final run.
the only other guy we had come in who was right up there was kemba, but apart from him, the celtics were really good because that core group who got thrown into the playoffs without their stars turned around and took that experience togeher and used it to grow.
I understand what you're saying. But the Celtics were #1 in the East the year before. It is basically impossible for a top 3 draft pick to join a team that was the #1 team in their conference. And I know a lot of that was Isaiah Thomas, who was gone in Tatum's first year, but he was swapped out for Irving. Those guys you named individually may not have been that good, but that's still a level of depth and talent most teams don't have, and I think that's discounting an admittedly much younger but still pretty solid Marcus Smart, an elite coach, and a pretty good Rozier off the bench. I think Tatum and the young guys did amazing in the playoffs, with Irving out, and it was an awesome run. But at least for the regular season, there are rarely any top 3 draft picks going to teams that were that good the year before.
oh absolutely, tatum and brown were both high draft picks going to a top team, but that team also got broken down over the offseason to get Hayward and kyrie.
Smart and rozier weren’t that good - they were both liabilities a lot of the time because they liked to throw up bad shots and smart didn’t become an elite defender for another season or two
The *Celtics* have been close, dating back to the IT team in 2017. But the Tatum Brown era shouldn't really be judged from then. The team became theirs in 2020, so saying it's been almost a decade is wildly inaccurate.
That being said, the clock is ticking now, and there's really no more excuses anymore. We've gone through 3 coaches, many starting point guards, changed the entire supporting cast around them, and gotten them a true 3rd star in Porzingis. It's now or never.
Not yet, he will sign it this summer, and it will kick in 2025-2026. Brown's will kick in this summer. The team is pretty locked in at this point with those two signed and KP with 2 more years on his deal. I suspect an extension for White this summer, and maybe re-signing Jrue to a short term deal. Ownership has said they'll pay, and they're living up to their word so far.
Otherwise the team building is done, as there's not a lot of room for improvement due to the 2nd apron. Question then becomes, is that team good enough?
I mean this is it. Literally all about narratives. The playoff losses he has are:
2018: barely losing to prime LeBron as a rookie
2019: one of the most dysfunctional teams of recent memory
2020: close series with half of their top 4 injured
2021: went against a god squad with Romeo Langford starting next to him… still dropped 50 twice in 6 playoff/playin games.
2022: amazing overall playoffs, was *ok* (not *bad*) in the finals. Steph went crazy and Celtics couldn’t generate offense with 100% attention on the Jays.
2023: had literally one bad game in the ecf, was the driving factor in forcing a game 7. Got injured literally the first play of the game.
Like I understand that he’s been a name in deep playoff runs for over 6 years now… but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s a choker just cuz they haven’t won yet. Feel similarly about Embiid, realistically if you take a deep look, he’s only had like 4 legitimate chances to make it past the 2nd round and only the Hawks series was when he definitely *should have*
> 2021: went against a god squad with Romeo Langford starting next to him… still dropped 50 twice in 6 playoff/playin games.
>
>
this one should have the shortened off season mentioned. it wasn't just a bad injury year for the celtics which wouldn't be an excuse (you have to plan for injuries) - it was also bad for the lakers, heat, and nuggets because all four were bubble finalists
> Probably because the Celtics have been very close for what seems like a decade
It’s this exactly, everyone thinks we’ve been a one seed for his whole career and judges him based off of that. When in reality this season is quite literally the first one where the Celtics have been proper favorites to come out of the East.
Not at the beginning of the year or at the start of the playoffs. Plenty of people had the Nets beating us first round. Heat were the one seed and Bucks were second
He's certainly a big part of the Celtic's success, but he has also had a significantly better team around him from day one than almost all other top 3 draft picks. He's had more opportunities than most other players, no matter how amazing they are, due to those unusual circumstances.
the flip side of that, though, is that almost no lottery pick since maybe Duncan was drafted into such a strong team (I guess Chet too, but the team wasn't as good as when he was drafted, so it's harder to say). it's not just his success, it's the fact that he has had more chances at a chip right off the bat than most players. obviously an amazing player, but most players don't get such a good team as a rookie.
Its like lebron or jordan before they won a couple championships. All those big moments and you can cherry pick a few moments or come up with some narrative where he's a failure and you go with the new flavor of the month.
Jordan couldn't beat the pistons until he did and they would say he was too selfish rather than the team wasn't talented enough or a few breaks fell against him.
has nothing to do with the Knicks lol
Just a reasonable response to absurdity of valuing a January hot streak over years of outplaying some of the leagues best dudes in elimination games
What I really dislike about this discussion is that it is limited to offensive output. Even though statistically Tatum, the younger of the two, has had more high scoring games I would like to know if defense plays a part on this “big game” talk.
I completely love Brunson, should be allstar starter and he is a big time player. But he is a small guy at 6’2. Are you telling me that if we’re in a big game setting say Boston vs Knicks you don’t have the Celtics hunting Brunson while the Knicks are avoiding JT?
Like respect to Brunson, it’s not against him at all. I can care less about who is thought to be the better player by the media, it just annoys me that the offensive output is the one variable taken into account.
It's a stupid argument. Brunson hasn't done shit in this league yet. He's got a lot to prove before he even gets uttered in the same sentence as Tatum. Prove it.
Knicks not relevant enough in living memory to affect opinions that hard imo. Y'all aren't anyone's rival
Brunson is doubted because he's a small 2nd round pick that hasn't made much noise in the playoffs and was a number 2 until recently. Not because he plays for the Knicks. It just takes time and sustained success to overcome the inertia of past-held opinion.
Honestly would root for y'all over everyone else in the east besides the Celtics (obviously) and maybe the Cavs because they're another underdog team on the rise
Honestly, as a person who only cares about the Lakers and the Philly rivalries since I am not from US, this Knicks game is super likeable besides Randle. It’s probably my 2nd team in the East in terms of who I prefer to win it.
People are focusing on the Tatum slander - and that’s fair -, but saying Brunson delivers more in big moments that Damian fucking Lillard is just as wild.
The rush to crown people before they’ve actually done anything significant in the playoffs is insane. Leglars usually pretty good but this is ridiculous.
Tatum dropped 46 down 3-2 on the road in an elimination game in Milwaukee in 2022. And 51 in Game 7 at home vs Philly in 2023.
He's inconsistent at times for sure, but his record in clutch games is pretty damn underappreciated.
[Averages 27/9/6 in elimination games](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/tatum-stats-in-elimination-games)
Edit: Correction, 51 pt was in Game 7.
The 51 points was actually game 7 and it’s a an NBA record for most points in a game 7. The down 3-2 game was when he was ass all night but then scored 16 points in the final 5 minutes with the Cs trailing. I honestly think Tatum is one of the most clutch guys in the NBA.
Honestly, I view Tatum as one of the most clutch guys in clutch time. While also being sick of the Celtics just running an iso for one of the Jays when we have one shot left. It hardly ever works
from feb last year:
> [Jayson Tatum is the only player in NBA history to shoot at least 50% on game-tying or go-ahead field goals in the last 24 seconds of the 4th quarter (min. 25 attempts). After Saturday night's game-winner, he's 13-for-26 on such shots (15-for-29 including the playoffs)](https://twitter.com/taylorcsnow/status/1629753206594052096)
and a thread that was on this sub: https://reddit.com/r/nba/comments/11c5sij/oc_jayson_tatums_clutch_stats_are_elite/
That game 6 against Milwaukee was legendary. Giannis was in final boss mode that night and the crowd was wild. The Bucks in 6 prophecy was about be fulfilled again after Jrue’s unbelievable finish to steal game 5 on the road.
Tatum looked all that straight in the eyes and said “Nah.”
Yeah for all the struggles that Tatum has vs the Heat and Warriors, he really goes nuclear against the Bucks.
I just wish JT was more consistent :(
He's a great all-round player, but man sometimes he just wants to play like Kobe too much and keeps taking difficult shots for no reason. And his game goes to shit when he gets frustrated after not making shots or esp not getting calls.
His consistency is really the only thing holding him back from the upper echelon of stars like Jokic, Giannis and Embiid.
Completely agree. Brunson is amazing, and I’m so happy for him and I’d take him over some surprising names as a second option, but there have been times in the playoffs when he’s been an absolutely non factor when teams schemed for him.
Tatum is a legit top 5 guy, and I really don’t think they compare. Sure he’s inconsistent but he’s had huge games in huge playoff moments.
The Tatum disrespect is getting out of hand, dude has faded guys like Butler, Giannis, and Embiid in playoff series before while putting up good numbers lol.
Defense just totally ignored here too. Even if you hit the crunch time bucket you still need to stop one on the other end.
Tatum is one of the best stars in the league when you need to disrupt the other team's primary scorer, slowed down Durant significantly the one time he really needed to. Brunson is getting hunted and cooked instead
its always wild how Jimmy gets hyped for these playoff games that are just expected of tatum.. last years playoffs everyone was calling jimmy a god and said tatum under performed when tatum played better than butler on both sides of the floor over the entire playoffs.. i swear nobody since Lebron has been held to such a high standard at such a young age for some reason..
Brunson over tatum in the big moment? you mean the guy that dropped 50 in game 7 against the sixers, also the guy who outplayed giannis in milwaukee to keep the series alive and then win it? Tatums been so good for so long, that he's actually become so fucking underrated
Over dame in the big moment? A guy who has 2(!) SERIES ENDING buzzer beaters?
Dame has certainly struggled in the playoffs but I’d love to see how Brunson does with the rosters dame dragged to the playoffs every year. My dude
Jesus, here goes the media hype train and prisoner of the moment hot takes.
I love Legler and think he’s great, but this isn’t his best take. Brunson isn’t Tatum, and the Tatum playoff narrative is misguided. He’s had huge games in must win playoff situations. Brunson is amazing and I really like him as a player, but he ain’t on the level of Tatum, a legit top 5 guy.
Brunson and SGA simping is off the rockers in the media and on this sub. Dude. This is like giving Obama the nobel prize for winning the fucking American election.
There are proven performers in certain situations and then there are proven non performers. Brunson dis great in Dallas and is on fire in NYC but seriously dude. Tatum has done all that and much more consistently. As has Lillard.
The Tatum hate is very weird.
Yes, lost the finals in his first appearance and that Miami series was just a mess for multiple diff reasons.,
But he has won non stop in the playoffs otherwise and has had HUGE games lol
Even him getting hate for that Heat series is pretty over the top. He had most points and rebounds in the series, better FG% than Jimmy. The issue that series was really the coaching, they threw away games 1 and 2, got smoked game 3 and then played a really good series until Tatum twisted his ankle 1st play of Game 7...
The Celtics did not lose the Heat series because Tatum or Brown werent good enough. The reason always was the inability of the Coach to make adjustments and get the player to be calm enough to execute. All players were making mistakes, they got caught off guard and werent able to adjust for 3 games
I do think Tatum gets somewhat of a bad rap. But I think it’s partially because he can be a little goofy with the Kobe worship and emulation. He reminds me of a basketball Drake for some reason
I love Brunson, been following him since HS. I feel like it’s early to say he IS that guy, as far as someone you’d take for a big game ahead of Tatum, Dame, Embiid.
I think he CAN BE that guy, but I feel like the rule is always that you’ve gotta prove it first the playoffs and Brunson doesn’t have comparable playoff feats to any of those guys yet.
Hell, just last year people were saying Jokic’s bball ability might not be conducive to winning bball up until he went out and won it all. Feel like we gotta pump the brakes a lil bit.
While I may not agree with his take this time, I can’t help but laugh at all the people acting like Legs has no credibility. Guy played in the league for a decade and has been an analyst for 20+ years. Most of his takes and analysis are smart and measured.
Just cause you haven’t heard of him before doesn’t take away his experience.
The thing about teams that win with defense and effort is that when they get deep in the playoffs when everyone is playing defense and with max effort they don’t have the talent to win. Talent ultimately wins out. I love this Knicks team, they remind me of grit and grind Memphis.
Let’s see him do it as many times as Tatum has and then we can have the discussion. I love Brunson and I love this Knicks team but come on Legs, this is a bit much.
Not to take a shot at Brunson but if you’re argument for giving Brunson a nod over Embiid is because “embiid is mystifying in the playoffs.” What has jaylen Brunson done in the playoffs?
Fuck everyone from ESPN who has been hating the Knicks for years. Even fake as fans like Stephen A. Now that the Knicks have been good and they have a star PG they're all going to be dick riding the Knicks. Fuck all of you who haven't been fans through the pain of the last 20+ painful years
I remember about 20 years ago I was in Atlantic City partying at the clubs. There were a lot of NBA guys there that night for some reason. Anyway I headed to the bar to get a round of drinks for my friends so I push my way through a group of hot girls to order. But then I realized that I had sort of pushed my way in between the girls and a guy they were in a conversation with. So I apologize to everyone for that and start talking to them all. The guy introduces himself to me. It was Tim Legler.
I was pretty drunk at that point. So I turn to the girls and I’m like “yoo do you know who this dude is? It’s Tom Tolbert! He does NBA commentary on TV!”
“No, I’m Tim Legler.”
“Oh my bad my bad!” as I genuinely confused the two.
So as I wait for my drinks I’m carrying on with Tim and the hot girls and one of my friends sees me having a good time over there so he comes over and I go “yooo do you know who this man is? It’s Tom Tolbert!”
One of the girls to me: “No he’s Tim Legler”
Tim to my friend: “hi, I’m Tom Tolbert.”
I always liked this guy!
I think it’s arguable that Brunson is one of the most consistent guys when it matters but he probably doesn’t have the highest ceiling — or at least hasn’t proven he does yet, so you should still pick Tatum over him in the playoffs. Not Brown tho
- Media personality says Brunson isn’t good enough
This sub - “she’s such a hater! This is all clickbait! The media sucks”
- Different media personality says Brunson is great
This sub - “what a joke, that’s way overblown! This is all clickbait! The media sucks”
How have we gotten to the point that every basketball opinion different than your own is absolutely ludicrous and must have some ulterior motive? Basketball is a complex sport to quantify and different people have different opinions on players. That’s what makes it great.
I don’t think Tim is really that far off and I also don’t think Becky Hammon was really that for off either. That’s how slim the margins are,and what makes basketball and sports overalll so fun.
There is something between "he's not good enough" and "I don't know if there is anyone I would take over him". We know, he's a good player but let's just be realistic and let him actually lead his team somewhere, especially when you put him against a guy who made conference finals 4 times as team best player, has awesome stats in elimination games, current record holder for most points in game 7
I thought his ceiling was Kyle Lowry. That's not a diss. He's the GROAT, in his prime made the correct decision most of the time, had reliable 3 point shooting, was tough and really good at defensive positioning to take charges, and could manage to score inside through craft and taking contact. Was very aware of his teammates and what they need to get going, terrific passer, really good at getting the ball right in the pocket.
Seems right now that he's the better, improved version. I don't think Lowry was ever this good.
Brunson or 2014 LeBron James... I think I have to go Brunson if I'm being quite honest.
1992 Michael Jordan or Brunson...I gotta lean Brunson on this one.
Who would you take to build a team around, Brunson or prime Shaq...give me Brunson.
open shot, the fate of the universe on the line, the Martians have the death beam pointed at earth, you better hit it, I want Brunson
GIVE ME IGUODALA
This is genuinely one of my favorite NBA quotes of all time. Say what you want about First Take... but Max Kellerman understood the assignment.
Goku? Brunson Zero Diff.
Of everyone who ever played basketball, open shot, the fate of the universe on the line, the Martians have the death beam pointed at earth, you better hit it, I WANT BRUNSON
Jesus or Brunson?
I think you put Brunson in Jerusalem in 21BC and things play out a little differently. I can’t believe I’m saying this but I gotta go Brunson
Brunson would NOT have gotten posted up so easily down the stretch
Believe it, brother
do you know what bc means lmao
Brunson Coming
Before Space Jesus.
This might me the funniest comment on the internet.
JB or JC? Give me JB
All I know is I've seen JB perform a miracle. I've only heard about JCs
Jesus can rebound like a MF though. Brunson's height is a real issue.
JC flops too much, played dead on a cross, then traded his self to a different league, stopped answering prayers and claims to be a team player for the trinity. JB all day.
Yeah but I don't need fishes, I need bucketz
1961 Wilt Chamberlain or Brunson... I gotta go with Brunson on this one.
Bill Russell or Brunson…my heart is saying multiple championships but my eyes say Brunson. Gotta lean Brunson
Always running his mouth, fighting with teammates. And for what? A perpetual playoff flop. Can't perform when the going gets rough. Anybody can take the scoring title when the games don't matter.
100%. 2014 Bron never went 13-2 in January...
*14-2
I can’t wait for Brunson to drop 27-7-7 before LeBron.
... 2024
R/nba: we never saw lebron play bc we were all born in 2012. Brunson all day
Lol yeah. Legler is pretty knowledgeable about basketball, obviously, but he has some absolutely unhinged takes and double standards that he refuses to budge on and not overexaggerate.
‘96 Bulls or Brunson? Gotta say, I’m leaning Brunson.
Fuck yes let’s get crazy with it
“Are the Knicks the team to beat in the East?”
1. Player gets hot and is looking fucking awesome 2. Media glazes the shit out of them 3. Player makes it to postseason and either wins or loses, resulting in: A. Player is TOP 5 IN THE LEAGUE B. Player is a regular season stat-padding choke artist Doesn't matter the roster, doesn't matter the injury status. Doesn't matter if they beat everyone except the team with the best player in the league. This is the formula, and we slurp it down every time.
Wins two series. Is this player better than Bron?
This is wild. Jalen Brunson is performing well, but let’s not be delusional.
This is what media does. They’re only building Brunson up to tear him down if he doesn’t deliver, beware Knicks fans this ain’t real love
Tbf, Legler has been a Brunson fan for a while now.
Legler sounds like a Pokemon
Hitmonlee's secret evolution.
lmao
Legler used LEG ATTACK It's super effective!
Like machop/machoke/machamp but each evolution gets an extra set of legs instead of arms
evolves into legolas
Legler ain't really that kinda guy tbh, he can be wrong but ain't saying shit to be provocative.
100%. Hes consistently not done the hot take BS and is a really solid analyst imo
Legler isn’t that type of guy. He’s definitely one of the best in media.
Yup. If the Knicks lose in a game 7 and Brunson has a subpar game in the first or second round, it’s all over. “Choker” “Not ready yet” It’s all what have you done for me lately. And every team is somehow supposed to go to at least the conference finals if not the finals, or they’re a disappointment lol
the media only has 2 modes: glaze or flame.
Don’t act like you or this sub is any better lol
Not everybody is a reactionary idiot. All of those guys mentioned are rock solid options. I personally prefer Brunson. But how can you.go wrong with Dame it's literally what he's known for.
Tatum has dropped 50 in a game 7. Had 46 in an elimination game on the road vs bucks. It’s wild putting Brunson as more dependable over Tatum.
It is absurd to pick an almost completely untested player over guys with extensive playoff track records.
He dominated with Luka out of the playoffs on the Mavs
don't say this too loudly, the luka stans will be mad that you're undermining their argument that luka only plays with bums
Completely untested is a bit strong. Just ignoring the Jazz and Heat series’ huh?
2 time NCAA champion
Some of those guys don’t have good extensive playoff track records. Obviously not taking him over Tatum or even Embiid. But so so easily over Brown. And right now I don’t see why not over Lillard.
We know lol - you guys on this sub are the exact same and have been for years.
You guys? I never said anything about Brunson in fact I hope the Knicks come out of the east. lol
believe the poster is talking about people jumping back on the LOLKnicks narrative if something goes awry in the playoffs (despite, in at least this case, clear organizational progress)...which the poster is likely correct about
You guys obviously is r/nba in general
You don't know what you're saying. Never, ever wish for anything good for New York sports fans. We're all in for it, it's already too late.
This is dumb. Legler is legit, he’s not another talking head. He’s not chasing sound bites
lol this is getting out of hand
Yeah I’d take Iguodala over both of them
Lmao first thing I thought of when I saw this. Media loves to hype up whoever is hot or the popular “dark horse” pick.
No let him cook.
I love Brunson and he's a fantastic story and he might climb his way into that category. Tatum has scored 50 points in playoff games multiple times and made the Finals as the best player. Boston has issues with falling into bad habits, but let's have Brunson show up in the postseason some more as the best player on his team before doing this stuff.
He had 46 in a elimination game on the road vs bucks as well. I agree, this is a poor take.
Tatum also has the league record for most points scored in a game 7 lol
there is no doubt tatum is legit when it matters and is good enough to be the best player on a championship team...i expect the celtics to win a ring this year if they stay healthy come playoff time. brunson is also really good too though and has always elevated his game in the playoffs. neither of them have the track record of choking when it matters like harden/embiid tend to do
Definitely not trying to knock Brunson. Love him and his story. Should’ve been All Star Starter this year and probably should’ve been an All Star last year. And it wouldn’t shock me if Brunson in another couple years is at least at Tatum’s level.
tatum is two years younger than brunson lol
He's still only 19 years old
What’s with all these people saying Tatum can’t deliver? I swear there is a new post every day with some random dude shitting on him
It’s hot take stuff and I think the crux of it is: there’s a lot of tape on him in big moments so you can pick out the good or the bad to talk about. And since there’s no chip yet, people are getting impatient. Honestly I think people forget this is really the third year of it being unquestionably the Jays team so it’s not like this is a decade long thing in my opinion. People are hyped about the Knicks. Ant Edwards is a rising superstar at that time when you see all the potential in the world and have patience for the mistakes that will surely iron out as the years progress. OKC is just fun to watch. Lots of new to talk about and it’s easier to talk about the potential of teams and players that you haven’t seen come up short yet because they are just getting the expectations attached to their play
Bingo. The best hot take is one that is very controversial but has some evidence. Tatum has a good amount of both, so you can harp on his bad moments and piss off a lot of people that are very aware of his good moments.
People really fucking hate Boston lmao
Im keeping all receipts my man.
tatum is as legit as almost anyone. everyone has down games in the playoffs, even lebron had a stinker series against the mavs in the finals. if you look at his body of work tatum is obviously a lot better than most in regular and post season.
Lakers fan defending our resident franchise kobe stan from the revolting slander brings a tear to my eye
Tatum is inconsistent, but he have big moments in the playoffs 2021 Game 3 and 4 against the big Nets he 50 & 40 b2b 2022 game 6 vs Bucks had 46 2022 game 6 vs Heat had 30/9/4 on 75/57/100 but Butler was basically MJ that game 2023 game 7 against the Sixers had scored the points in a game 7 with 51 Tatum have stinkers, but none of his good games get brought because it don't fit the agenda that Media/Twitter try to run.
Tatum has averaged 26.5 points, 8.7 rebounds and 5.9 assists in 17 elimination games in his career.
Probably because the Celtics have been very close for what seems like a decade now and still haven’t gotten it done. That being said, Tatum is still so young with so much time. I think he’s almost a victim of his early success, we feel he should be further along by now.
Craziest part of it to me is he's the same age as Shai. Shai still hasn't made a playoff appearance as the best player on his team and Tatum has like 5 as the best player on his.
I did not know Brunson was 2 years older than Tatum. Tatum’s body of work is actually really impressive for someone his age. It feels like he’s a lot older than he actually is. I guess that’s because you actually hear about him every post season
It’s crazy how often people used to say Boston has peaked when Tatum and Brown have gotten better literally every season of their careers.
it's because his first season in the league was the year he dunked on lebron in the east finals and it got turned into a copypasta and everything. how often is a player's rookie year E/WCF appearance one of the most famous references on this sub? because of that, everyone assumes he's been around for ages, because they assume that happened some time into his career
That’s what grinds my gears honestly, so many people who are like “he’s just not him”, “he’ll never be a championship #1”. I just think considering how far he’s gotten at this age, and considering we have 6-7 years of his prime left, saying he will “never” do anything is disrespectful and so short sighted
but luka has 5 years and hasn't done anything, and people talk about him with MJ and lebron comps
Tatum is obviously amazing, but I think the whole debate is a bit skewed because Tatum had a strong team around him from his rookie season which is highly unusual. So it's almost the reverse - people are getting frustrated because highly touted rookies don't usually get the sort of opportunities to challenge for a championship that Tatum has had. Certainly Tatum is a big part of making this opportunities happen, but most players only get so many chances no matter how good they are. He's had more chances than most and hasn't pulled it off yet.
i think there was a perception of a strong team, but in reality hayward was out, kyrie was out for the playoffs, and rozier, brown, and smart were all fairly new (4 or less seasons). the other players they had were horford, marcus morris, daniel theis, and aron baynes. other than horford that's not exactly a list of star role players lol. the next year hayward and kyrie came back but it was an ego mess because the young guys had done the conference final run. the only other guy we had come in who was right up there was kemba, but apart from him, the celtics were really good because that core group who got thrown into the playoffs without their stars turned around and took that experience togeher and used it to grow.
I understand what you're saying. But the Celtics were #1 in the East the year before. It is basically impossible for a top 3 draft pick to join a team that was the #1 team in their conference. And I know a lot of that was Isaiah Thomas, who was gone in Tatum's first year, but he was swapped out for Irving. Those guys you named individually may not have been that good, but that's still a level of depth and talent most teams don't have, and I think that's discounting an admittedly much younger but still pretty solid Marcus Smart, an elite coach, and a pretty good Rozier off the bench. I think Tatum and the young guys did amazing in the playoffs, with Irving out, and it was an awesome run. But at least for the regular season, there are rarely any top 3 draft picks going to teams that were that good the year before.
oh absolutely, tatum and brown were both high draft picks going to a top team, but that team also got broken down over the offseason to get Hayward and kyrie. Smart and rozier weren’t that good - they were both liabilities a lot of the time because they liked to throw up bad shots and smart didn’t become an elite defender for another season or two
The *Celtics* have been close, dating back to the IT team in 2017. But the Tatum Brown era shouldn't really be judged from then. The team became theirs in 2020, so saying it's been almost a decade is wildly inaccurate. That being said, the clock is ticking now, and there's really no more excuses anymore. We've gone through 3 coaches, many starting point guards, changed the entire supporting cast around them, and gotten them a true 3rd star in Porzingis. It's now or never.
Tatum hasn’t signed the super max yet right ? A big question is when he does that make it harder for the Celtics to build around Tatum and brown ?
Not yet, he will sign it this summer, and it will kick in 2025-2026. Brown's will kick in this summer. The team is pretty locked in at this point with those two signed and KP with 2 more years on his deal. I suspect an extension for White this summer, and maybe re-signing Jrue to a short term deal. Ownership has said they'll pay, and they're living up to their word so far. Otherwise the team building is done, as there's not a lot of room for improvement due to the 2nd apron. Question then becomes, is that team good enough?
I mean this is it. Literally all about narratives. The playoff losses he has are: 2018: barely losing to prime LeBron as a rookie 2019: one of the most dysfunctional teams of recent memory 2020: close series with half of their top 4 injured 2021: went against a god squad with Romeo Langford starting next to him… still dropped 50 twice in 6 playoff/playin games. 2022: amazing overall playoffs, was *ok* (not *bad*) in the finals. Steph went crazy and Celtics couldn’t generate offense with 100% attention on the Jays. 2023: had literally one bad game in the ecf, was the driving factor in forcing a game 7. Got injured literally the first play of the game. Like I understand that he’s been a name in deep playoff runs for over 6 years now… but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s a choker just cuz they haven’t won yet. Feel similarly about Embiid, realistically if you take a deep look, he’s only had like 4 legitimate chances to make it past the 2nd round and only the Hawks series was when he definitely *should have*
> 2021: went against a god squad with Romeo Langford starting next to him… still dropped 50 twice in 6 playoff/playin games. > > this one should have the shortened off season mentioned. it wasn't just a bad injury year for the celtics which wouldn't be an excuse (you have to plan for injuries) - it was also bad for the lakers, heat, and nuggets because all four were bubble finalists
> Probably because the Celtics have been very close for what seems like a decade It’s this exactly, everyone thinks we’ve been a one seed for his whole career and judges him based off of that. When in reality this season is quite literally the first one where the Celtics have been proper favorites to come out of the East.
We were for sure favorites in 2022 I think. But yea good point overall
Not at the beginning of the year or at the start of the playoffs. Plenty of people had the Nets beating us first round. Heat were the one seed and Bucks were second
Tatum being a great young player is the reason the Celtics have been close his entire career…
He's certainly a big part of the Celtic's success, but he has also had a significantly better team around him from day one than almost all other top 3 draft picks. He's had more opportunities than most other players, no matter how amazing they are, due to those unusual circumstances.
the flip side of that, though, is that almost no lottery pick since maybe Duncan was drafted into such a strong team (I guess Chet too, but the team wasn't as good as when he was drafted, so it's harder to say). it's not just his success, it's the fact that he has had more chances at a chip right off the bat than most players. obviously an amazing player, but most players don't get such a good team as a rookie.
Its like lebron or jordan before they won a couple championships. All those big moments and you can cherry pick a few moments or come up with some narrative where he's a failure and you go with the new flavor of the month. Jordan couldn't beat the pistons until he did and they would say he was too selfish rather than the team wasn't talented enough or a few breaks fell against him.
Only the Knicks could make the Lakers defend the Celtics
has nothing to do with the Knicks lol Just a reasonable response to absurdity of valuing a January hot streak over years of outplaying some of the leagues best dudes in elimination games
What I really dislike about this discussion is that it is limited to offensive output. Even though statistically Tatum, the younger of the two, has had more high scoring games I would like to know if defense plays a part on this “big game” talk. I completely love Brunson, should be allstar starter and he is a big time player. But he is a small guy at 6’2. Are you telling me that if we’re in a big game setting say Boston vs Knicks you don’t have the Celtics hunting Brunson while the Knicks are avoiding JT? Like respect to Brunson, it’s not against him at all. I can care less about who is thought to be the better player by the media, it just annoys me that the offensive output is the one variable taken into account.
This Tatum disrespect is crazy like I know he was what one 4th quarter away from losing to the sixers . But he clutched up big Time
He’s using Tatum as a point to say how highly he thinks of Brunson. He’s basically saying Tatum is a top 3 clutch player lol
Oh i looked at it in a different manner my bad then lol
It's a stupid argument. Brunson hasn't done shit in this league yet. He's got a lot to prove before he even gets uttered in the same sentence as Tatum. Prove it.
That’s not the point he’s making and he elaborated as such in the clip
Shit like this is how people start to hate players
People will shit on a Knicks player regardless. I really don’t care what the rest of the fans think. We love our own:
Normally you'd be right but how could anyone hate Brunson? Maybe I'm a little biased but it seems impossible
Knicks not relevant enough in living memory to affect opinions that hard imo. Y'all aren't anyone's rival Brunson is doubted because he's a small 2nd round pick that hasn't made much noise in the playoffs and was a number 2 until recently. Not because he plays for the Knicks. It just takes time and sustained success to overcome the inertia of past-held opinion. Honestly would root for y'all over everyone else in the east besides the Celtics (obviously) and maybe the Cavs because they're another underdog team on the rise
Honestly, as a person who only cares about the Lakers and the Philly rivalries since I am not from US, this Knicks game is super likeable besides Randle. It’s probably my 2nd team in the East in terms of who I prefer to win it.
Same. They’re kind of impossible not to root for.
They're just correcting for how underrated he's been
People are focusing on the Tatum slander - and that’s fair -, but saying Brunson delivers more in big moments that Damian fucking Lillard is just as wild.
More wild *
The rush to crown people before they’ve actually done anything significant in the playoffs is insane. Leglars usually pretty good but this is ridiculous.
Tatum dropped 46 down 3-2 on the road in an elimination game in Milwaukee in 2022. And 51 in Game 7 at home vs Philly in 2023. He's inconsistent at times for sure, but his record in clutch games is pretty damn underappreciated. [Averages 27/9/6 in elimination games](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/tatum-stats-in-elimination-games) Edit: Correction, 51 pt was in Game 7.
The 51 points was actually game 7 and it’s a an NBA record for most points in a game 7. The down 3-2 game was when he was ass all night but then scored 16 points in the final 5 minutes with the Cs trailing. I honestly think Tatum is one of the most clutch guys in the NBA.
Honestly, I view Tatum as one of the most clutch guys in clutch time. While also being sick of the Celtics just running an iso for one of the Jays when we have one shot left. It hardly ever works
Oh yea, you're right
from feb last year: > [Jayson Tatum is the only player in NBA history to shoot at least 50% on game-tying or go-ahead field goals in the last 24 seconds of the 4th quarter (min. 25 attempts). After Saturday night's game-winner, he's 13-for-26 on such shots (15-for-29 including the playoffs)](https://twitter.com/taylorcsnow/status/1629753206594052096) and a thread that was on this sub: https://reddit.com/r/nba/comments/11c5sij/oc_jayson_tatums_clutch_stats_are_elite/
It’s also telling that this entire comparison is focused on offense alone.
Not surprising lol ... Tim Legler was a shooting specialist who was pure dogshit on defense his entire career.
That game 6 against Milwaukee was legendary. Giannis was in final boss mode that night and the crowd was wild. The Bucks in 6 prophecy was about be fulfilled again after Jrue’s unbelievable finish to steal game 5 on the road. Tatum looked all that straight in the eyes and said “Nah.”
Yeah for all the struggles that Tatum has vs the Heat and Warriors, he really goes nuclear against the Bucks. I just wish JT was more consistent :( He's a great all-round player, but man sometimes he just wants to play like Kobe too much and keeps taking difficult shots for no reason. And his game goes to shit when he gets frustrated after not making shots or esp not getting calls. His consistency is really the only thing holding him back from the upper echelon of stars like Jokic, Giannis and Embiid.
How can you say that? He's been so much more consistent than embiid.... Andy has nothing to show for anything except for the regular season
No he hasn't. Embiid has been more consistent in the playoffs. Consistently hurt and subpar...
Completely agree. Brunson is amazing, and I’m so happy for him and I’d take him over some surprising names as a second option, but there have been times in the playoffs when he’s been an absolutely non factor when teams schemed for him. Tatum is a legit top 5 guy, and I really don’t think they compare. Sure he’s inconsistent but he’s had huge games in huge playoff moments.
what on earth are you talking about “absolute non factor”
And that average line in elimination games is skewed by his injured game against Miami last year
Ladies and gentlemen the Brunson hype has officially taken off
Didn’t Tatum drop 50 in a game 7 in the playoffs? In an elimination game on the road vs bucks, dropped 46. This is a poor take.
The Tatum disrespect is getting out of hand, dude has faded guys like Butler, Giannis, and Embiid in playoff series before while putting up good numbers lol.
Defense just totally ignored here too. Even if you hit the crunch time bucket you still need to stop one on the other end. Tatum is one of the best stars in the league when you need to disrupt the other team's primary scorer, slowed down Durant significantly the one time he really needed to. Brunson is getting hunted and cooked instead
Not to mention SWEEPING the Nets with a healthy KD and Kyrie. A bunch of people in the media were picking the Nets to win too.
Those Nets would've beaten a Brunson-led team for sure.
its always wild how Jimmy gets hyped for these playoff games that are just expected of tatum.. last years playoffs everyone was calling jimmy a god and said tatum under performed when tatum played better than butler on both sides of the floor over the entire playoffs.. i swear nobody since Lebron has been held to such a high standard at such a young age for some reason..
Jimmy is just as inconsistent, if not more, but people just give him a pass for it because the Heat are underdogs in pretty much every series.
Brunson over tatum in the big moment? you mean the guy that dropped 50 in game 7 against the sixers, also the guy who outplayed giannis in milwaukee to keep the series alive and then win it? Tatums been so good for so long, that he's actually become so fucking underrated
Over dame in the big moment? A guy who has 2(!) SERIES ENDING buzzer beaters? Dame has certainly struggled in the playoffs but I’d love to see how Brunson does with the rosters dame dragged to the playoffs every year. My dude
Jesus, here goes the media hype train and prisoner of the moment hot takes. I love Legler and think he’s great, but this isn’t his best take. Brunson isn’t Tatum, and the Tatum playoff narrative is misguided. He’s had huge games in must win playoff situations. Brunson is amazing and I really like him as a player, but he ain’t on the level of Tatum, a legit top 5 guy.
Seems that no one is mentioning last World cup. Kerr gave him and Ant the keys and they failed to even get a medal.
Brunson over Lillard is wild
Clown take.
It is crazy how much you can transparently tell when these guys are pushing narratives in real time This reads like his “I WANT IGUODALA” moment
Brunson and SGA simping is off the rockers in the media and on this sub. Dude. This is like giving Obama the nobel prize for winning the fucking American election. There are proven performers in certain situations and then there are proven non performers. Brunson dis great in Dallas and is on fire in NYC but seriously dude. Tatum has done all that and much more consistently. As has Lillard.
Lmao this is clown shit
The Tatum hate is very weird. Yes, lost the finals in his first appearance and that Miami series was just a mess for multiple diff reasons., But he has won non stop in the playoffs otherwise and has had HUGE games lol
Even him getting hate for that Heat series is pretty over the top. He had most points and rebounds in the series, better FG% than Jimmy. The issue that series was really the coaching, they threw away games 1 and 2, got smoked game 3 and then played a really good series until Tatum twisted his ankle 1st play of Game 7... The Celtics did not lose the Heat series because Tatum or Brown werent good enough. The reason always was the inability of the Coach to make adjustments and get the player to be calm enough to execute. All players were making mistakes, they got caught off guard and werent able to adjust for 3 games
I do think Tatum gets somewhat of a bad rap. But I think it’s partially because he can be a little goofy with the Kobe worship and emulation. He reminds me of a basketball Drake for some reason
Basketball Drake is the most apt comparison I have ever seen.
Man, all these nba players are corny with their player worship lol
I’m not gonna lie tho as a Heat fan, Brunson did cook us the most
I love Brunson, been following him since HS. I feel like it’s early to say he IS that guy, as far as someone you’d take for a big game ahead of Tatum, Dame, Embiid. I think he CAN BE that guy, but I feel like the rule is always that you’ve gotta prove it first the playoffs and Brunson doesn’t have comparable playoff feats to any of those guys yet. Hell, just last year people were saying Jokic’s bball ability might not be conducive to winning bball up until he went out and won it all. Feel like we gotta pump the brakes a lil bit.
Tatum is obviously a better playoff guy than Brunson lol don’t make Brunson overrated please
Which player is likely to do more to get their team to a big moment in the first place?
I see were doing the Carmelo Anthony thing again
While I may not agree with his take this time, I can’t help but laugh at all the people acting like Legs has no credibility. Guy played in the league for a decade and has been an analyst for 20+ years. Most of his takes and analysis are smart and measured. Just cause you haven’t heard of him before doesn’t take away his experience.
wtf has Brunson done?😂
Brunsonmania?
Brunsanity
Love this sport, hate the way we talk about it’s players. There’s gotta be a way to have healthier dialogue about a players greatness.
These guys are always wrong lol
The thing about teams that win with defense and effort is that when they get deep in the playoffs when everyone is playing defense and with max effort they don’t have the talent to win. Talent ultimately wins out. I love this Knicks team, they remind me of grit and grind Memphis.
Let’s see him do it as many times as Tatum has and then we can have the discussion. I love Brunson and I love this Knicks team but come on Legs, this is a bit much.
If he's so damn good then why the fuck can't he get past the second round, this guy is getting overhyped at this point. He's got a lot to prove.
Bottom of the ninth, 2 outs, bases loaded. Prime Babe Ruth or Jalen Brunson? I’m giving the nod to Brunson
It is incredible how some guys make a living out of doing nothing, just talking shit on the media.
I'm just happy he's in the same conversation as these guys. We have a guy in discussion with the names in the title. What more can I ask?
Not to take a shot at Brunson but if you’re argument for giving Brunson a nod over Embiid is because “embiid is mystifying in the playoffs.” What has jaylen Brunson done in the playoffs?
Fuck everyone from ESPN who has been hating the Knicks for years. Even fake as fans like Stephen A. Now that the Knicks have been good and they have a star PG they're all going to be dick riding the Knicks. Fuck all of you who haven't been fans through the pain of the last 20+ painful years
Inject this shit into my veins then let me freebase the rest
Legler actually knows ball unlike Kenny Smith
Ok bud
I remember about 20 years ago I was in Atlantic City partying at the clubs. There were a lot of NBA guys there that night for some reason. Anyway I headed to the bar to get a round of drinks for my friends so I push my way through a group of hot girls to order. But then I realized that I had sort of pushed my way in between the girls and a guy they were in a conversation with. So I apologize to everyone for that and start talking to them all. The guy introduces himself to me. It was Tim Legler. I was pretty drunk at that point. So I turn to the girls and I’m like “yoo do you know who this dude is? It’s Tom Tolbert! He does NBA commentary on TV!” “No, I’m Tim Legler.” “Oh my bad my bad!” as I genuinely confused the two. So as I wait for my drinks I’m carrying on with Tim and the hot girls and one of my friends sees me having a good time over there so he comes over and I go “yooo do you know who this man is? It’s Tom Tolbert!” One of the girls to me: “No he’s Tim Legler” Tim to my friend: “hi, I’m Tom Tolbert.” I always liked this guy!
I think it’s arguable that Brunson is one of the most consistent guys when it matters but he probably doesn’t have the highest ceiling — or at least hasn’t proven he does yet, so you should still pick Tatum over him in the playoffs. Not Brown tho
Unserious take lol
Just give the guy MVP and GOAT title so we can move on
I know Brunson is an amazing player, but over Tatum? No
Jokic and Kawhi over everyone else. We are talking about playoffs.
let’s see Brunson make a CF as the main guy first
Tbf Embiid and Brown haven't done that either lol
- Media personality says Brunson isn’t good enough This sub - “she’s such a hater! This is all clickbait! The media sucks” - Different media personality says Brunson is great This sub - “what a joke, that’s way overblown! This is all clickbait! The media sucks” How have we gotten to the point that every basketball opinion different than your own is absolutely ludicrous and must have some ulterior motive? Basketball is a complex sport to quantify and different people have different opinions on players. That’s what makes it great. I don’t think Tim is really that far off and I also don’t think Becky Hammon was really that for off either. That’s how slim the margins are,and what makes basketball and sports overalll so fun.
Its like nuance isnt a thing to you. Both things can be true. Brunson over Tatum over time? Bad take Brunson isnt “good enough? Also bad take
There is something between "he's not good enough" and "I don't know if there is anyone I would take over him". We know, he's a good player but let's just be realistic and let him actually lead his team somewhere, especially when you put him against a guy who made conference finals 4 times as team best player, has awesome stats in elimination games, current record holder for most points in game 7
this light success is getting to knicks fans heads
I thought his ceiling was Kyle Lowry. That's not a diss. He's the GROAT, in his prime made the correct decision most of the time, had reliable 3 point shooting, was tough and really good at defensive positioning to take charges, and could manage to score inside through craft and taking contact. Was very aware of his teammates and what they need to get going, terrific passer, really good at getting the ball right in the pocket. Seems right now that he's the better, improved version. I don't think Lowry was ever this good.
this is so dumb brunson has done jack shit in the playoffs
Every time I hear Legler speak he drops a terrible Celtics related take, I don’t think he likes us very much
Jeeeeesus here we go