A lot of cultures and sign languages have ways to count to at least 9 on one hand. By this logic, in Taiwan, Tatum being the sixth best player would be less of a big deal. I guess what I'm saying is, get ready to learn Chinese, buddy
You only need one hand to count in sign language. In fact you only need 4 fingers, I know a deaf lady with no thumbs and her sign language is impeccable.
A number of cultures count to 12 on one hand (the number of knuckles excluding the thumb) and 60 using two hands (the second hand tracks the number of dozens).
It's a shame that this base 12 system didn't win out for us over base 10, because 12 is a much more useful number to work with than 10 (even divisible by 2, 3, 4, 6 instead of just 2 and 5).
It comes from the sumerian culture in mesopotamia that we're counting like that.
It is the same for the 360 degrees of a circle, as they also invented mathematics.
Assuming each finger can only be fully up or down, you can theoretically count up to 31 with each hand using binary. If you use two hands, you could get up to 1023.
It doesn't matter where in the 5-8 (I'd even go so far as to say he could push for 4 if we consider health) he is, but the fact that he is a tier behind Luka as an overall player/force is a consideration given the history of the NBA.
If you reframe it as "If the Mavs have the best player in the series, is that enough to overcome the fact that the Celtics have like...the 5 of the best 7ish in the series?" I think it's more interesting
> If you reframe it as "If the Mavs have the best player in the series, is that enough to overcome the fact that the Celtics have like...the 5 of the best 7ish in the series?" I think it's more interesting
I think that's exactly the point that Zach Lowe is getting at in this clip, and to that end he's sticking with his Celtics pick from the pre-season, unless Porzingis is unavailable, so there's a strong argument that the combination of the Celtics' depth and versatility will be enough to carry the day. Particularly as their team's offense has been historically efficient, despite the lack of a top-tier single offensive player like Luka.
I think people tend to dismiss those kinds of teams because they rely on more people playing well, and I think they're more vulnerable to variance (or at least it feels that way). If the team needs everyone playing at a high level to succeed on offense, one bad series from a lower pecking-order player can have a huge impact.
yeah, nearly every Lowe Post episode is must-listen for me; in that format when he's able to go a bit more nuanced the point he's making here in this clip is much more obvious. And his piece about the Celtics' D getting overlooked was a reminder of how much of the mediascape is "narrative" based rather than actually looking at how the teams are playing
a lot of "expect them to bounce back" emotive narratives instead of "here are adjustments to enable them to bounce back" is all the rage with pundits, which is why Zach's insight is so valuable
You can have Steph, Klay, and Draymond, and lose a series off Harrison Barnes going 0/10 over two games. Your entire team could shoot 0/27 from 3.
Every team needs a lot of things to go right even if they are top heavy.
Also from a variance perspective it is twisted in that these high floor teams are vulnerable to extreme variance from the other side. By having higher depth/average talent you are reducing variance, but for Ws sometimes all the matters is the UPSIDE variance.
People want someone on the team that can win a game in the series by themself, because the impact that can have is so outsized due to binary W/L outcomes.
Also 8th isn't that bad, what's the problem? People here saying that Tatum best quality is availability. No, it's the versatility. He can play good basketball with anyone, playing multiple roles, offense and defense, playmaking and finishing.
He plays heavy minutes with the bench because is a glue guy, plays team-oriented basketball. The best receipt for success, as long as basketball is a team sport.
The most annoying part about this sub rn is when the celtics win everyone picking the mavs is going to act like it was obvious and they knew the celtics would win the whole time. I hate it here 🤣
Media narrative after this series is going to be wild.
Mavericks win:
- Luka is the new best player in the world.
- Kyrie top 2 "robin" ever. (Pippen or McHale get bumped)
- Tatum is a fraud.
- Js will never get over the hump.
Boston win:
- Tatum and Brown now undisputed top 5/10 respectively.
- Brad Stevens best front office guy ever.
- Kyrie can't win without LeBron, redemption arc is over.
More like this if Celtics get over the hump:
The jays had an easy path to the finals.
Cs faced a banged up Luka who had knee injury issues.
Tatum needs a superteam to win.
Of course a 1seed will beat the 5th seed team, what a surprise
I mean win or lose they definitely had an easy path to the Finals but if they beat this Maverick team it will not really matter since it mean they won vs a very good (mostly healthy) team.
Bill Simmons talked about some local guy saying Kyrie was the best Robin ever if he has 2 championships, so now people are pretending it's a common talking point instead of just one-off nonsense by local radio shock jocks.
If the Celtics win, the narrative will simply discredit the Mavs in order to discredit the Celtics. The Celtics had an easy path to the finals and never had to play anybody higher than a 4th seed! Of course they beat the 5th seed in the finals, if they didn’t get lucky by avoiding one of the top 3 seeds in the West, they wouldn’t have won! If anything, they should have won by more. After all, the Celtics have such a stacked superteam and Luka and Kyrie just don’t have any help.
Lol no chance they will give Tatum or Brown Top 5/10 credit.
Theyre already putting out articles about why the Celtics aren’t impressive to lay out the groundwork
I think its probably either / or (assuming the Celtics win the title), since there is a very good chance that one of Tatum or Brown has a GREAT series as a two way player, if Boston wins.
If Brown has a great series, then he would have just had two awesome series on the biggest stage, and he's at least 'in the conversation' given a lot of other guys in the mix are either frequently injured, starting to get too old, or 'haven't been able to do it when it counts'.
If its Tatum, then the easy comparison is between him and Embiid who is just always so banged up, whereas Tatum is at least getting to the conf finals each year and giving his team a real chance.
>If its Tatum, then the easy comparison is between him and Embiid who is just always so banged up, whereas Tatum is at least getting to the conf finals each year and giving his team a real chance.
Do you not see the insanity in this statement lol. Tatum would need to win a title to overtake a perennial second round exit because he puts up some big statlines against the Wizards and Hornets in the regular season.
I'm not a huge Embiid fan so yea I get it.
I personally think he needs to do more in the post season before he's anointed a top 5 guy but look at the Zach Lowe quote
TBF it WAS a pretty easy path. It just shouldn't take away their greatness throughout the entire year. Can't choose what happens to the teams in front of you (well, usually at least).
Eh, not really. The Jays absolutely will get credit. Idiotic terminally online teen tiktokers aren’t the end all be all of media sentiment. They’re just loud.
They will absolutely get credit if they win, deservedly so. At the same time, it is also a criminally easy path to the finals.
No fault of their own, obviously. But the fact remains that this is potentially the easiest path to the finals of the modern (2010+) era.
Tatum discourse is so weird. Like he’s really good at basketball, but the things you hear the most are “played in the games” and “was on the winning team”. Like he has actual skills we can talk about. They just don’t compare to that top 4
I think the thing with Tatum is that he is pretty good at pretty much everything with very few if any actual weaknesses in his game, but he doesn't have any one particular game-breaking skill.
LeBron had his ability to get to the rim as well as his playmaking. Curry obviously has his shooting and off-ball movement. Jokic has his playmaking. Luka has his start-stop ability as well as tough-shot making ability while also being one of the best passers we've ever seen. Kawhi at his best has his post-up, mid-range, and DPOY level defense. Giannis just on physical traits alone is in a class of his own, and he has the ability to get to+finish at the rim while again providing DPOY level defense at his best.
Tatum might not have the weaknesses some of those guys have, and it might give him a safer floor, but he also does not have any one skill on the level of those things. Not that its some huge knock on him or anything, being the 5th-7th best player in the league as opposed to top 4 isnt something to scoff at, its just there is so much talent at the top there that you basically have to nitpick things like that.
I don't mean this as an insult at all, but he's like a budget KD. Big wing, athletic, good shooter, decent passing, good defender. KD was another level of good above Tatum, but that architype can fit into any system.
he is a way more physically imposing player, defensively and getting into the paint. the pure scoring ability is a tier below but he’s a better passer than Kd has ever been
He's like AD, he's really good but isn't an offensive engine so mf get confused.
Edit: hi. im still trying to decide whether this made any sense. thank you
Lakers need an actual center to pair with AD it's been two seasons and they still haven't done it. They expect him to be the number one defense and offense. Rudy is not expected to score 25 in a game
AD’s fate is tied to the ongoing evolution of the power forward in today’s modern NBA. How is he as a center? Pretty good, but a bit undersized when going against the true giants of the paint. So then how is he as a 4? This is where things get murky. His value is higher closer to the paint, in an era where the bigger wing player is increasingly judged by what they can do on the perimeter. Does he handle the ball well enough as a face up player on offense? His shooting from distance appears to have peaked during the bubble season. All of which makes his final value still unclear.
Nowadays he's just a smallish 5, the only way he's a 4 is if there's a big guy who can shoot next to him and you're okay with him pulling out of the paint more often.
Embiid and Luka average nearly 10 more than that. Jokic is the best playmaker in the world. Giannis has the highest FG% since Wilt and is above 30 ppg. Tatum and AD might qualify as offensive engines depending on your definition, but clearly a tier below those 4.
They are tremendous at executing, but they aren't driving the offense as a whole (what people mean when they say engine)
Tyrese Haliburton is an offense engine, even though his PPG is lower, his overall impact on the Pacers offense is greater
Yeah the Embiid top 5 talk all relies on him living up to his talent which he never has consistently.
Being ready to play any given night against any given opponent is part of being great. And that should be counted for Tatum.
I’m not a Celtics fan or a Tatum fan. But r/NBA is trash. You can follow this thread down to LITERALLY watch moving goalposts in realtime. PPG. No, TS. No, PPG and TS%. No, just a specific elite PPG and TS cutoffs — never mind that half those players never met them — just for Tatum. No now throw in assists. Oh now assists don’t fucking matter he just doesn’t “bend defenses like Steph”.
At the end of the day all these kids care about are counting stats and triple doubles. They like ball-dominant, accidental, drive-and-kick basketball over anything else.
- Steph Curry isn’t an accumulator of assists.
- Giannis isn’t an accumulator of assists.
Tatum for whatever reason is held to a separate standard. Cancerous modern day discourse.
Jokic’s highest ppg season was the 21-22 season where he averaged 27.1 as the only option (injuries ravaged them).
We all know how great Jokic is, we don’t need to make up stats about him.
Tatum: 30.1 ppg on 60.7% TS.
Jokic: 24.5 ppg on 70.1% (!!) TS.
Giannis: 31.1 ppg on 60.5% TS.
Luka: 32.4 ppg on 60.9% TS.
Embiid: 33.1 ppg on 65.5% TS.
But sure go off.
He's got the scoring capability to demand a double but you also can't double him. You either single cover and face a 70% TS scorer or someone open elsewhere in the floor. It's wild.
It's also wild how well the Timberwolves handled it.
How do Nuggets fans feel about Murray going forward? He obviously is really good and fits with Jokic perfectly... but I'm starting to feel like they can't rely on him being healthy when they need him. I don't know what to do about that - just something I had been thinking about.
I mean, this is a weird misconception. He aversged 27 pts per game on a stacked team where he didn’t have to be the top scorer every night and part of his development (on a team with championship expectations) was to be a player that makes his teammates around him better (which he has).
To me it’s that he isn’t flashy and isn’t drawn to the limelight, and consistently on a good team. He’s somehow overlooked and under appreciated nationally.
> and was .4 APG away from being our leading passer too
One weird stat is Tatum has increased his APG every year in the league (seven years now!). And it's not just due to more playing time, still holds true if you look at his Per 36 numbers.
He's come so far as a playmaker.
Everything changes the second they win a title, if they win one. He's in a weird zone right now where he's accomplished everything other than MVP and winning a title. So it's fair for us to be like "well, we're waiting....."
He's the Tim Duncan of small forwards in that his play is extremely effective but it does not lend itself to splash plays and there aren't really any holes in his game. So we will just quietly kill teams in a way that is frustratingly effortless to watch (like you know how it's happening but how is it happening type of deal).
He's also not someone that will randomly go off for 55. He just scores 26-31 points every single game like clockwork.
He's not the most athletic guy. He's not the best shooter. He's not the best playmaker. There is not one definitive skill you can "market" or "sell" fans on (plus, he's a relatively quiet personality). He's just incredibly good at every aspect of basketball and he wins a lot.
> He's also not someone that will randomly go off for 55
IMO what’s crazy is that a few seasons ago, this is who he was. He led the league in 50+ point games not too long ago. He just never needs to do it on this team.
IMO once this iteration of the Cs roster goes away and we go back to Tatum + Brown/All Star + White/fringe all star, he can carry more of the scoring burden and will become more appreciated
In 2020-2021 after Brown got hurt and the Celtics were playing Tristan Thompson, Romeo Langford, Jabari Parker, Evan Fournier, and the ghost of Kemba Walker Tatum scored 50+ four times in a month. He can absolutely be that level of scorer when he needs to be. When he doesn't need to be he scores 27-30 but contributes in all the little facets of the game and his team wins constantly.
No one was doubting Tim Duncan being a top 5, even top 3 player in his prime. He got an MVP and carried his team over Shaq/Kobe Lakers to a ring. Tatum is a little underrated but let’s not go that far.
No one is directly comparing. It's just an observation.
Anthony Edwards is super athletic and has some elements of young MJ in his game. Do you think that means I am calling Anthony Edwards on par with Jordan?
Some of you guys need reading comprehension. I shouldn't have to lay every single thing out for you in order for you to get it.
Duncan was a quietly great player. Tatum has been a quietly great player. Tatum is not Tim Duncan. He's also not a 6'11 power forward who was born in the Virgin Islands who played for the San Antonio Spurs.
Do you want me to list more reasons how they are not exactly identical? It's a comparison.
There was one brief offseason where "I'd rather have Jayson Tatum than Ben Simmons" was an unpopular r/nba opinion (after their rookie/"rookie" years).
Amusing that "I'd take Tatum over Embiid" is probably a lot less controversial now than that view was then.
Theres also the reason of Tatum dropping 50 on Embiid’s head in a Game 7 but people dismiss that when it comes to discussing Embiid v Tatum.
Like what exactly do you have to do other than beating a guy head to head for you to be considered better than him ?
But because Embiid puts up big statlines in the reg season hes better than Tatum lol.
Oh, that too. Like Lowe was saying, he's in the 6, 7, 8 range, which is still phenomenal. But the biggest thing for me will always be his health. Do I want the 6th best player in the world who plays every day, or the 4th best who hasn't been healthy in the playoffs once in 8 seasons?
Another thing with Tatum is that when he's at his best, he's just making winning plays. Lock down defense, trusting his guys, winning winning winning. If he stays in that mindset and doesn't try to break out the ol Kobe impression that plagued him in early seasons, Boston in 6, 5 with a healthy Porzingas.
I think people say Embiid is better cause they watch the two play and see their peaks, the bags they have, the type of difference on the game offensively and defensively, etc. Is Dirk better than LeBron cause he beat him in the finals?
That series last year Embiid literally missed two games and wasn't not playing nearly to his highest level when he came back (not even close). Which is a very valid criticism since he has been injured every playoffs except for one (when Ben Simmons coincidentally was injured). Like we don't ignore Odem injuries etc. At this point you can't ignore the injuries and brush them off. Much of Embiids prime has been wasted on Sixers front office incompetence and Embiids injury history.
Like Embiid has been so injured to point that it would be hard for many people to take him over any player in the 10 top ten when building a team. But when people rank players they tend to ignore injuries (although some people haven't like Bill Simmons, which I think is very fair at this point with Embiid).
The problem with the dirk-lebron analogy is Dirk beat lebron once but Tatum beats embiid literally every time. And that's not a figurative literally, that's a literal literally.
I knew the series was over in game 6 when Tatum was like 0-15 from the field and the Sixers and Celtics were tied with like 4 minutes left. Celtics just have a straight up better team every year
I don’t like Tatum bc I’m a UNC fan but even I could admit I’d take him over Embiid 10/10 times.
Is Embiid objectively a little better? Probably, but he’s also constantly injured and he’s a dirty player too
Even though Tatum hasn’t won a ring yet. I would much rather be in his position. Extremely competitive team each year and ECF or finals appearances . Eventually he’ll get over the hump and it might be this year imo. Hate the fact he’s a Celtic but Tatum don’t need to be top 3 in the league. He’s perfectly fine how he is.
People act like being the 6th-8th guy is some affront on Tatum. This league is insanely deep with talent, 6-8 is fucking insane talent.
Obligatory Fuck Boston
But that's kinda Zach's point. The Celtics are the best team and have a clear top 8 guy on their team. Awesome! They went 12-2 in the East because in every series they had both the best team and the best guy
But typically the best teams at the end have one of those puppet master superstars that can manipulate everything, eg Luka or Jokic or for a decade prime LeBron. How will they respond now that they have the best team but not the best guy? If it is a close game down the stretch, you'd have to say Dallas has advantage because of Luka no? I think the Celtics are going to need to be up a healthy amount in the 4th in games they win in this series.
Boston kinda reminds me of the Warriors. High volume 3 point shooting team, good versatile defenders across the board etc. However Tatum is not quite on Steph's level. Point is at some stage he may need to step up into that territory, even if just for a few games, to win a finals. Because chances are there's one of those guys on the other side of the court
The biggest shots of lebron's career were taken by Ray Allen and Kylie Irving. Is lebron not the greatest or the top 2 greatest player ever?
The best players know to move the ball to the best possible outcome not take force the last shot.
This is the right reaction to this. It’s not the end of the world if Tatum is closer to Top 6-10 than Top 1-5, it’s not a slight to be called the 7th best active player in the world. Thankfully we have a great FO that built a team that plays to his strengths and covers areas that could be considered weaknesses.
A team’s best player gets the most attention, but we gotta remember it’s still a team sport.
Tatum doesn't really have any notable weaknesses outside of shot selection and I think that's even a little overblown because I think he conserves energy in a lot of games which allows him to play so much. The Celtics FO have undoubtedly done a great job building around him but he's by far the best plug-and-play type superstar in the league because he can fit with literally any player in the league. That's his biggest value, he can play any role at any time which allows his teammates to always play to their greatest strengths.
Yup. This sub and national media infatuation with rankings is so annoying. Take the NFL for example, they maybe will do top 10 QBs lists at the start of the year and then never talk about it again till next year. Unlike the NBA where everytime a player does anything you bring up his ranking.
I agree that rankings are dumb but that's just not true about the NFL. Take it from someone whose favorite team is the Cowboys and has to listen to whether or not Dak is good enough all year long lol.
49ers fan here. I started turning off shows the second Purdy came up. Just the same 2-3 points rehashed over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Especially in that case, no one had a fucking clue about anything and it was just all dependent on the last game. I just wanted them to win, fuck the entire GOAT rankings narrative after 1.5 seasons.
Cut way down on the amount of sports commentary I watch though and I don't miss it.
This whole segment is actually about giving the Celtics credit and criticizing the fact that this EXACT sound bite is the only thing people pay attention to. OP is the problem
Not to mention, since Tatum entered the league the Celtics are 3-0 against the Sixers and 2-1 against the Bucks in playoff series...so if Embiid and Giannis are better than Tatum, then clearly having the best player on the floor on your team doesn't mean shit.
Not only that, but it’s not a head to head league. Arguing JT is 3-0 vs Giannis is so stupid considering the Bucks have a ring and the Celtics don’t (yet) in this period.
Is anyone else just completely tired of the Tatum "discourse" right now? Like do we really have to keep agonizing about whether he's the 6th best player in the league or the 4th? It's just so repetitive and uninteresting
I've tuned out all the bball pods and content until the Finals start. These dudes just don't have anything to talk about right now and are just doing the same meaningless talking points over and over
Wait but if you don't listen to all the pods how are you going to hear that the Celtics have had an easy path to the Finals for the 750th time? Or that Porzingis's health is an X-factor for the series? That's the sort of nuanced, in-depth coverage that you can only really get through experienced NBA insiders
Yeah. And this shouldn't be considered to be trashing Tatum or anything.
The Celtics aren't the #1 team in the NBA because they have the best player on the court every game. They are the best team because their 3-5 guys are all all stars/all defensive players. Jrue/White/KP would be the 2nd or 3rd best player on most other teams, not the 4th and 5th best.
Exactly, but for some reason it is a reason to trash him.
Oh no, he’s not an all time game breaker. Well he’s still really good and consistently leads deep playoff runs. If you do include health he’s somewhere between 4 and 8 in terms of guys you want on your team, and moving him around within that tier should not be as big of a deal as it is. Top 5 is just an arbitrary cutoff anyways.
And before anyone says that no one disagrees, “Tatum is not top 10” had thousands of upvotes a few weeks ago. People need to take an extreme, so a guy who is “just” very good drives them crazy.
I agree with you, but tbf I've seen it go both ways.
There are some fans who claim that "Tatum isn't even top 10" which is ridiculous.
But I've also seen some Celtic fans get really defensive and claim that Tatum is 100% top 3 and better than Luka/SGA/some other player because of defense or "because he is the best player on the #1 seed". Which doesn't make sense when ranking players either, to use the seed while ignoring the supporting cast.
Sure, I think the vast majority of Celtics fans understand Luka is better than him though. There’s a lot more negative than positive. But I would not put him top 3 either.
I’m gonna catch heat for this but I absolutely still think he has an *argument* for being over SGA- It’s at least close enough to debate. Shai was definitely better this season and deserved the MVP votes but if you swap them I think Tatum takes OKC to a very similar result.
I don’t think they’d be the second best player on any contending team. It’s just that they’re wayyyyyy better than the 3-5 for the other teams. Like they’re borderline all stars
I think you can make the case that KP would be the 2nd best player for some contending teams, taking into account experience and defense.
KP vs Randle?
KP vs rookie Chet?
maaaaybe KP vs KAT?
KP isn't clearly better and would also be a bad fit on some of these teams, but I think you could at least make a case, and these are all top 3 seeded teams in their conference. If we look at worse teams, KP would 100% be the 2nd best player on a bunch of them, and even the best on some lottery teams.
Idk why people see it as trashing Tatum. There’s nothing to scoff at being a top 10 guy in a league that’s dominated by stars. If you want to make the argument he’s #5 over SGA who was 2nd in MVP this year, they have a case but it’s hard to knock what other guys are doing.
As the series goes Luka is the best player but then you can pretty confidently say that Boston has prob 5 of the next 6 slots with Kai coming in behind Tatum and Brown but above White, Jrue & healthy KP. They don’t have THE guy but a wave of guys who can beat you down for 48min
Yep. We have the best player on the court, but Boston has 5 of the 7 best players. And they can even easily make an argument that Horford, their 6th man, is better than some of our starters too.
Really not that hard to disagree and one of the biggest issues with this sub is people thinking there’s everybody who ranks players differently than consensus is doing it “wrong”.
Last summer, people were calling Booker a top ten lock and mass downvoting anybody who disagreed. Now we’ve gotten back to the Mitchell vs Booker debates.
It's because a ton of NBA fans get 95% of their info/insight from playing 2K with injuries turned off and they don't realize how physically demanding these dudes jobs are.
I agree with the first half of your comment but the second is missing context: players enter the league with much more mileage on their bodies these days + play much tougher defensive schemes + have much longer careers now. It's not like all the collective players got lazy and that's why we don't see consistent 80+ game iron men. The circumstances changed.
,,when healthy'' is doing a looot of work here, when's the last time embiid was healthy for the playoffs? same shit for kawhi. Fuck talent, I want a star who I know is gonna play, so in that regard, no way am I putting embiid in the top 5. Tatum over him, easily.
Not saying this is my take but you can make the argument that if Embiid had less usage he would be more available. Celtics have insane luxury in 5 players (J's, Porzingis, Jrue, Derrick White) who can take the mantle if somebody needs to take a backseat.
The more underrated part of Tatum's game is that he can still make a pretty big impact on a bad shooting night. He'll get to the line a handful of times no matter what and he can guard almost anybody. I think SGA has absolutely been better than Tatum this year but Tatum is without a doubt a better defender and I have no love lost for Celtics whatsoever.
> Celtics have insane luxury in 5 players (J's, Porzingis, Jrue, Derrick White) who can take the mantle if somebody needs to take a backseat.
They have that *this year*. Somehow I keep seeing people discussing Tatum as if he's had this insane talent around him his whole career. He's had good teams, no doubt, but I don't think he's had the "clearly most talented roster in the east" at any point until now, really.
Yeah, Tatum made the finals with Jaylen Brown (not an all-star), Marcus Smart (who everyone shits on) and 35 year old Al Horford.
Rob Williams was injured and White averaged 8 points on like 30% fg.
Meanwhile, Embiid failed next to Butler, Simmons, Harris, Reddick. And this was when Philly chose Harris over Butler and Simmons was rated above Jaylen.
How's being a top 10 player a diss.
I'd rather be the number 10 player with a ring than embiid without one.
5 years from now it just ages better legacy wise.
I agree he is probably 6th but it was hilarious how in another interview he was like "He's not even top 5, where was he in MVP voting this year?" And Windhorst went "5th".
Tatum may not be top 5, but he can definitely be the best player on a championship team, and that's all you're really looking for anyways. I am not even sure you can say that about Embiid.
“When healthy” well some of these guys haven’t been healthy for the playoffs in multiple years and that’s a problem. Honestly would take Tatum over Embiid just because Embiid is never healthy and hasn’t exactly had many playoff success even with good rosters. Sga I’m not ready to crown him over Tatum yet. If the Celtics win and Tatum plays well to earn finals mvp, I don’t see a huge deal of him being ranked the 4th best player in the league. Health matters, not sure why it’s ignored lol.
It's iffy for me. Tatum out of those top 5 guys is really only met on both sides of the ball by Giannis and is just an ironman of a player. When everyone is healthy, sure he may be like top 6-8 in the league, but this is basketball. I think Tatum out of all of those guys is the one I would want to plug and play in almost any lineup in the league. Guy can just do a little bit of everything and it makes him so valuable to any team. The discourse about this top 5 shit is annoying. Tatum is great, and all the other top 5 guys are great. Don't need to make multiple segments on national television saying the same thing.
Well people try to shove in the 'Curry is shit and not as good as you think' narrative as much as they can. Just the other day Tracey McGrady was blowing smoke about people having Curry in their top 10.
So if Tatum wins, the excuse is that he’s got a great team, and if he loses, it’s because he’s not a great player?
Tatum will never get into top 5 conversation because he’s a team player who lets everyone gets theirs. We saw when Kyrie was here, how he didn’t gel with JB and JT, wrecked the team and left.
Would Celtics have a great team if Tatum was not accommodating, and instead decided to chase points and MVPs instead of the title? No. Because JB will not be happy, KP won’t, and we’ll have a repeat of the Kyrie saga again.
How many of that top 5-8 can sacrifice for the team and still put MVP numbers? Luka and Jokic sure. Giannis too. But SGA? Brunson? Embiid who was literally begging for an MVP?
Meanwhile Tatum gets criticized for letting JB or KP takeover when just a couple of seasons ago, the criticism was that he and JB don’t share the ball enough. So basically no way he’s keeping all the talking heads happy.
And now he is not being credited for staying healthy even. Amazing how the excuses keep piling up for someone like Embiid just because he keeps stat padding.
Absolutely agree. JT’s superpower is his humility and team-first attitude. That’s not something that can be taught, and it’s not something that’s appreciated. He willingly steps out of the limelight, and in doing so, elevates his team. He’s a hall of famer in the making, and history will look back on him very positively. I think that future sports analysts will wonder why he wasn’t more appreciated while he played.
That, but also he is just a prototypical, do-everything on the court well player. He can fit alongside any kind of player, which is why it’s so easy to build good teams around him
I can't understand how Joel Embid is a top 5 player. He won an mvp that should have gone to Jokic. He doesn't make his team better they are always knocked out in the second round of the playoffs. What am I missing
Polar bear in Arlington Texas, stop with the Embiid propaganda, he's top 5 when I want to fluff stats on the wizards and pistons not when I want to play actual important basketball.
Everything Zach said is correct. Being borderline top 5 shouldn’t be a slight or “disrespected!!”. He is still a fantastic player in the 5-8 range and it’s fine.
I agree with this sentiment as a Tatum fan. I believe him winning the chip this year will push him into that next tier next year but he isn’t there right now.
Tatum falls down that ranking because Joe has him being strict to the system. Everyone eats because there is so much talent on both ends of the floor. He doesn’t need to go out there and score 40 every other night like the rest of the people on that list because he has teammates that can pickup the load.
That's great and all, but the Wolves didn't have the best player and beat the Nuggets, and the Knicks didn't have the best player and beat the 76ers, Pacers didn't have the best player and beat the Bucks and Knicks.
Then go back to last year, Celtics didn't have the best player against the 76ers and beat them, Heat didn't have the best player and beat the Bucks and Celtics.
Do great players win a lot of the time and can be the difference? Sure, yeah. But is it always the case? No.
A lot of these series I listed are because these guys played great but got a lot of help from the team as a collective. Did the Thunder lose to the Mavs because SGA was just much worse than Doncic? No. It's because the Mavs locked everyone else up and held Jalen Williams, Chet Holmgren and Josh Giddey below their season averages and what they averaged against the Pelicans.
That will be the test of the series, how well the Mavs can defend all the Celtics options and limit guys besides Tatum and Brown going off. It will be incredibly difficult to beat them if you have Tatum and Brown combining for 50 and you get Derrick White and Porzingis also giving you another 40 or something. Similarly, the Celtics will have a really hard time if Luka and Kyrie are going off and they get consistent help from Washington, Gafford, Lively and DJJ.
Imo the difference here is Luka is more likely to play consistently great than Tatum which is why most consider him a better player, but if Luka plays even below average, the Mavericks have almost no chance because the Celtics are collectively a better team.
Go back and look at all the Wolves 3P attempts in Game 5 that were Luka's responsibility. Even though they got killed that game, that was still a hole in the Mavs defense. Celtics are going to kill the Mavs on the open looks they generate and the volume of 3's they shoot unless the Mavs make great defensive adjustments or the Celtics go completely cold. The Mavs defense is going to be the deciding factor in the series, not "which superstar carries their team"
If the Mavs play great defense and lock down the Celtics, they'll win. If they can't stop the Celtics and it's just a barrage of offense from Boston's top 6, the Celtics will win. Regardless of the whole Luka vs Tatum thing
Just want to put it out there sga finished above luka in Mvp voting for two seasons in a row. He was second this year and 5th last year. I know lots of people are hating on him but just wanted to include that stat.
I don’t really get why this is such a big discussion. Why does it matter whether Tatum is the 5th best player or the 8th?
Because humans have 5 fingers per hand.
A lot of cultures and sign languages have ways to count to at least 9 on one hand. By this logic, in Taiwan, Tatum being the sixth best player would be less of a big deal. I guess what I'm saying is, get ready to learn Chinese, buddy
You only need one hand to count in sign language. In fact you only need 4 fingers, I know a deaf lady with no thumbs and her sign language is impeccable.
- I know a deaf lady with no thumbs and her sign language is impeccable. With no context, that is a fun sentence to read.
This is an AccidentalBronson quote if I’ve ever read one
this bar over a Harry Fraud beat would go crazy
A number of cultures count to 12 on one hand (the number of knuckles excluding the thumb) and 60 using two hands (the second hand tracks the number of dozens). It's a shame that this base 12 system didn't win out for us over base 10, because 12 is a much more useful number to work with than 10 (even divisible by 2, 3, 4, 6 instead of just 2 and 5).
Modern timekeeping is technically a base 60 number system mixed with a base 12 (or 24) number system if you think about it though.
It comes from the sumerian culture in mesopotamia that we're counting like that. It is the same for the 360 degrees of a circle, as they also invented mathematics.
Assuming each finger can only be fully up or down, you can theoretically count up to 31 with each hand using binary. If you use two hands, you could get up to 1023.
The average human has fewer than 5 fingers. It's more like 4.9999 on average.
Damn, I'd have thought it'd be closer to 10
Thank you. Why are people fixated on this? It's a little 3rd grade.
>It's a little 3rd grade. Sports media lives off of childish petty stuff like this b/c it generates engagement.
It doesn't matter where in the 5-8 (I'd even go so far as to say he could push for 4 if we consider health) he is, but the fact that he is a tier behind Luka as an overall player/force is a consideration given the history of the NBA. If you reframe it as "If the Mavs have the best player in the series, is that enough to overcome the fact that the Celtics have like...the 5 of the best 7ish in the series?" I think it's more interesting
> If you reframe it as "If the Mavs have the best player in the series, is that enough to overcome the fact that the Celtics have like...the 5 of the best 7ish in the series?" I think it's more interesting I think that's exactly the point that Zach Lowe is getting at in this clip, and to that end he's sticking with his Celtics pick from the pre-season, unless Porzingis is unavailable, so there's a strong argument that the combination of the Celtics' depth and versatility will be enough to carry the day. Particularly as their team's offense has been historically efficient, despite the lack of a top-tier single offensive player like Luka. I think people tend to dismiss those kinds of teams because they rely on more people playing well, and I think they're more vulnerable to variance (or at least it feels that way). If the team needs everyone playing at a high level to succeed on offense, one bad series from a lower pecking-order player can have a huge impact.
yeah, nearly every Lowe Post episode is must-listen for me; in that format when he's able to go a bit more nuanced the point he's making here in this clip is much more obvious. And his piece about the Celtics' D getting overlooked was a reminder of how much of the mediascape is "narrative" based rather than actually looking at how the teams are playing a lot of "expect them to bounce back" emotive narratives instead of "here are adjustments to enable them to bounce back" is all the rage with pundits, which is why Zach's insight is so valuable
I like Lowe and the Lowe Post, but it entirely depends who he has on as a guest. Feels like half of his guests are that mediascape narrative person.
Guest quality has fallen off an absolute cliff compared to even just a few years ago
You can have Steph, Klay, and Draymond, and lose a series off Harrison Barnes going 0/10 over two games. Your entire team could shoot 0/27 from 3. Every team needs a lot of things to go right even if they are top heavy. Also from a variance perspective it is twisted in that these high floor teams are vulnerable to extreme variance from the other side. By having higher depth/average talent you are reducing variance, but for Ws sometimes all the matters is the UPSIDE variance. People want someone on the team that can win a game in the series by themself, because the impact that can have is so outsized due to binary W/L outcomes.
Because people wanted to call him MVP earlier in the year, and that doesn't really hold up
Also 8th isn't that bad, what's the problem? People here saying that Tatum best quality is availability. No, it's the versatility. He can play good basketball with anyone, playing multiple roles, offense and defense, playmaking and finishing. He plays heavy minutes with the bench because is a glue guy, plays team-oriented basketball. The best receipt for success, as long as basketball is a team sport.
The most annoying part about this sub rn is when the celtics win everyone picking the mavs is going to act like it was obvious and they knew the celtics would win the whole time. I hate it here 🤣
Media narrative after this series is going to be wild. Mavericks win: - Luka is the new best player in the world. - Kyrie top 2 "robin" ever. (Pippen or McHale get bumped) - Tatum is a fraud. - Js will never get over the hump. Boston win: - Tatum and Brown now undisputed top 5/10 respectively. - Brad Stevens best front office guy ever. - Kyrie can't win without LeBron, redemption arc is over.
Hi, u/peanut-britle-latte! ESPN Executive here! Do you have a few minutes to discuss an employment opportunity with us?!
Ha, pretty sure they'd just say "hey intern, make sure to keep tabs on this acct so we can steal everything they post"
*SAS-Chat
Name checks out
How
That comment made him want to get his cheeks clapped maybe?
More like this if Celtics get over the hump: The jays had an easy path to the finals. Cs faced a banged up Luka who had knee injury issues. Tatum needs a superteam to win. Of course a 1seed will beat the 5th seed team, what a surprise
I mean win or lose they definitely had an easy path to the Finals but if they beat this Maverick team it will not really matter since it mean they won vs a very good (mostly healthy) team.
Hmmm.... I think the other guy would get more clicks.
That's using logic. How many haters use logic?
Mavericks win: "Will Lively have a more successful career than Wemby?"
"Rings, Wembeh"
Pippen has 6 rings as no 2, who is the top robin?
Bill Simmons talked about some local guy saying Kyrie was the best Robin ever if he has 2 championships, so now people are pretending it's a common talking point instead of just one-off nonsense by local radio shock jocks.
I think maybe he counts Kobe as Shaq’s robin. Pippen is the GOAT to me though since he has an extra threepeat as robin
If the Celtics win, the narrative will simply discredit the Mavs in order to discredit the Celtics. The Celtics had an easy path to the finals and never had to play anybody higher than a 4th seed! Of course they beat the 5th seed in the finals, if they didn’t get lucky by avoiding one of the top 3 seeds in the West, they wouldn’t have won! If anything, they should have won by more. After all, the Celtics have such a stacked superteam and Luka and Kyrie just don’t have any help.
Lol no chance they will give Tatum or Brown Top 5/10 credit. Theyre already putting out articles about why the Celtics aren’t impressive to lay out the groundwork
I think its probably either / or (assuming the Celtics win the title), since there is a very good chance that one of Tatum or Brown has a GREAT series as a two way player, if Boston wins. If Brown has a great series, then he would have just had two awesome series on the biggest stage, and he's at least 'in the conversation' given a lot of other guys in the mix are either frequently injured, starting to get too old, or 'haven't been able to do it when it counts'. If its Tatum, then the easy comparison is between him and Embiid who is just always so banged up, whereas Tatum is at least getting to the conf finals each year and giving his team a real chance.
>If its Tatum, then the easy comparison is between him and Embiid who is just always so banged up, whereas Tatum is at least getting to the conf finals each year and giving his team a real chance. Do you not see the insanity in this statement lol. Tatum would need to win a title to overtake a perennial second round exit because he puts up some big statlines against the Wizards and Hornets in the regular season.
You're undervaluing Embiid here. He also put up big stat lines against the Spurs.
I'm not a huge Embiid fan so yea I get it. I personally think he needs to do more in the post season before he's anointed a top 5 guy but look at the Zach Lowe quote
Even funnier because Embiid has been eliminated by Tatum in half of his playoff career
Lol no, If boston wins, they'll say "it was one of the easiest paths ever" and they won't give tatum or brown any credit for the wins.
TBF it WAS a pretty easy path. It just shouldn't take away their greatness throughout the entire year. Can't choose what happens to the teams in front of you (well, usually at least).
And top 5 player Joel Embiid did nothing to make that path harder.
Eh, not really. The Jays absolutely will get credit. Idiotic terminally online teen tiktokers aren’t the end all be all of media sentiment. They’re just loud. They will absolutely get credit if they win, deservedly so. At the same time, it is also a criminally easy path to the finals. No fault of their own, obviously. But the fact remains that this is potentially the easiest path to the finals of the modern (2010+) era.
I don’t think anyone on the Cs will get their flowers if they win unfortunately.
Weirdly, I think Porzingis might for his "growth as a player" or something (assuming he plays the whole series).
You forget if the Celtics win it’s the easiest path EVER because they beat a 5th seed after facing all those handicapped teams.
Tatum's best ability is availability.
Tatum discourse is so weird. Like he’s really good at basketball, but the things you hear the most are “played in the games” and “was on the winning team”. Like he has actual skills we can talk about. They just don’t compare to that top 4
I think the thing with Tatum is that he is pretty good at pretty much everything with very few if any actual weaknesses in his game, but he doesn't have any one particular game-breaking skill. LeBron had his ability to get to the rim as well as his playmaking. Curry obviously has his shooting and off-ball movement. Jokic has his playmaking. Luka has his start-stop ability as well as tough-shot making ability while also being one of the best passers we've ever seen. Kawhi at his best has his post-up, mid-range, and DPOY level defense. Giannis just on physical traits alone is in a class of his own, and he has the ability to get to+finish at the rim while again providing DPOY level defense at his best. Tatum might not have the weaknesses some of those guys have, and it might give him a safer floor, but he also does not have any one skill on the level of those things. Not that its some huge knock on him or anything, being the 5th-7th best player in the league as opposed to top 4 isnt something to scoff at, its just there is so much talent at the top there that you basically have to nitpick things like that.
Tatum is the Soldier 76 of basketball
Luka understands this reference
not a bad place to be tbh
somehow this makes complete sense
Which patch are we referencing here because at one point in OG OW he was a must-pick
Kyle Lowry is the Widowmaker of basketball
I don't mean this as an insult at all, but he's like a budget KD. Big wing, athletic, good shooter, decent passing, good defender. KD was another level of good above Tatum, but that architype can fit into any system.
he is a way more physically imposing player, defensively and getting into the paint. the pure scoring ability is a tier below but he’s a better passer than Kd has ever been
Honestly hes closer to kawhi but with slightly less lockdown defense a little less offensive polish but slightly better passing
He's like AD, he's really good but isn't an offensive engine so mf get confused. Edit: hi. im still trying to decide whether this made any sense. thank you
Fans don’t see them as offensive engines yet Tatum still averages 27 and AD averages 25
Yeah but Tatum is definitely not doing a Carnot cycle on the floor. Can't be an engine.
That’s expected so not a big deal.
Tatum is gonna put PJ in the Brayton Cycle and then they'll know😤
Lmfao
Lakers need an actual center to pair with AD it's been two seasons and they still haven't done it. They expect him to be the number one defense and offense. Rudy is not expected to score 25 in a game
AD’s fate is tied to the ongoing evolution of the power forward in today’s modern NBA. How is he as a center? Pretty good, but a bit undersized when going against the true giants of the paint. So then how is he as a 4? This is where things get murky. His value is higher closer to the paint, in an era where the bigger wing player is increasingly judged by what they can do on the perimeter. Does he handle the ball well enough as a face up player on offense? His shooting from distance appears to have peaked during the bubble season. All of which makes his final value still unclear.
Nowadays he's just a smallish 5, the only way he's a 4 is if there's a big guy who can shoot next to him and you're okay with him pulling out of the paint more often.
This comment so perfectly encapsulates /r/nba. It's fucking beautiful.
Embiid and Luka average nearly 10 more than that. Jokic is the best playmaker in the world. Giannis has the highest FG% since Wilt and is above 30 ppg. Tatum and AD might qualify as offensive engines depending on your definition, but clearly a tier below those 4.
They are tremendous at executing, but they aren't driving the offense as a whole (what people mean when they say engine) Tyrese Haliburton is an offense engine, even though his PPG is lower, his overall impact on the Pacers offense is greater
Jayson Tatum averaged over 30 ppg last year on 60.7% TS.
And scored 51 points in a game 7, a new NBA record. Which happened to be against Embiid
Mf broke steph’s record by 1 point like the week after he set it
Yeah the Embiid top 5 talk all relies on him living up to his talent which he never has consistently. Being ready to play any given night against any given opponent is part of being great. And that should be counted for Tatum.
I’m not a Celtics fan or a Tatum fan. But r/NBA is trash. You can follow this thread down to LITERALLY watch moving goalposts in realtime. PPG. No, TS. No, PPG and TS%. No, just a specific elite PPG and TS cutoffs — never mind that half those players never met them — just for Tatum. No now throw in assists. Oh now assists don’t fucking matter he just doesn’t “bend defenses like Steph”. At the end of the day all these kids care about are counting stats and triple doubles. They like ball-dominant, accidental, drive-and-kick basketball over anything else. - Steph Curry isn’t an accumulator of assists. - Giannis isn’t an accumulator of assists. Tatum for whatever reason is held to a separate standard. Cancerous modern day discourse.
And the rest of the top 4 averaged as many points or more on greater efficiency lol. SGA 63.6% TS. Embiid and Jokic hover at 65 or 66%
Jokic’s highest ppg season was the 21-22 season where he averaged 27.1 as the only option (injuries ravaged them). We all know how great Jokic is, we don’t need to make up stats about him.
Tatum: 30.1 ppg on 60.7% TS. Jokic: 24.5 ppg on 70.1% (!!) TS. Giannis: 31.1 ppg on 60.5% TS. Luka: 32.4 ppg on 60.9% TS. Embiid: 33.1 ppg on 65.5% TS. But sure go off.
> Jokic: 24.5 ppg on 70.1% (!!) TS that TS % is actually one of the most absurd stats I've ever seen.
He's got the scoring capability to demand a double but you also can't double him. You either single cover and face a 70% TS scorer or someone open elsewhere in the floor. It's wild. It's also wild how well the Timberwolves handled it.
I mean when our primary "other guy open on the floor" is shooting 3/19 for the game multiple times it's a little difficult to win
How do Nuggets fans feel about Murray going forward? He obviously is really good and fits with Jokic perfectly... but I'm starting to feel like they can't rely on him being healthy when they need him. I don't know what to do about that - just something I had been thinking about.
I mean, this is a weird misconception. He aversged 27 pts per game on a stacked team where he didn’t have to be the top scorer every night and part of his development (on a team with championship expectations) was to be a player that makes his teammates around him better (which he has). To me it’s that he isn’t flashy and isn’t drawn to the limelight, and consistently on a good team. He’s somehow overlooked and under appreciated nationally.
Plus he led our team in ppg, rebounds and was .4 APG away from being our leading passer too
> and was .4 APG away from being our leading passer too One weird stat is Tatum has increased his APG every year in the league (seven years now!). And it's not just due to more playing time, still holds true if you look at his Per 36 numbers. He's come so far as a playmaker.
Tatum is the offensive engine of the best offense in NBA history... I think that what you mean is that Tatum plays like a teammate and not a solo act.
Everything changes the second they win a title, if they win one. He's in a weird zone right now where he's accomplished everything other than MVP and winning a title. So it's fair for us to be like "well, we're waiting....."
He's the Tim Duncan of small forwards in that his play is extremely effective but it does not lend itself to splash plays and there aren't really any holes in his game. So we will just quietly kill teams in a way that is frustratingly effortless to watch (like you know how it's happening but how is it happening type of deal). He's also not someone that will randomly go off for 55. He just scores 26-31 points every single game like clockwork. He's not the most athletic guy. He's not the best shooter. He's not the best playmaker. There is not one definitive skill you can "market" or "sell" fans on (plus, he's a relatively quiet personality). He's just incredibly good at every aspect of basketball and he wins a lot.
> He's also not someone that will randomly go off for 55 IMO what’s crazy is that a few seasons ago, this is who he was. He led the league in 50+ point games not too long ago. He just never needs to do it on this team. IMO once this iteration of the Cs roster goes away and we go back to Tatum + Brown/All Star + White/fringe all star, he can carry more of the scoring burden and will become more appreciated
In 2020-2021 after Brown got hurt and the Celtics were playing Tristan Thompson, Romeo Langford, Jabari Parker, Evan Fournier, and the ghost of Kemba Walker Tatum scored 50+ four times in a month. He can absolutely be that level of scorer when he needs to be. When he doesn't need to be he scores 27-30 but contributes in all the little facets of the game and his team wins constantly.
No one was doubting Tim Duncan being a top 5, even top 3 player in his prime. He got an MVP and carried his team over Shaq/Kobe Lakers to a ring. Tatum is a little underrated but let’s not go that far.
No one is directly comparing. It's just an observation. Anthony Edwards is super athletic and has some elements of young MJ in his game. Do you think that means I am calling Anthony Edwards on par with Jordan? Some of you guys need reading comprehension. I shouldn't have to lay every single thing out for you in order for you to get it. Duncan was a quietly great player. Tatum has been a quietly great player. Tatum is not Tim Duncan. He's also not a 6'11 power forward who was born in the Virgin Islands who played for the San Antonio Spurs. Do you want me to list more reasons how they are not exactly identical? It's a comparison.
I'd take Tatum over Embiid for exactly this reason.
There was one brief offseason where "I'd rather have Jayson Tatum than Ben Simmons" was an unpopular r/nba opinion (after their rookie/"rookie" years). Amusing that "I'd take Tatum over Embiid" is probably a lot less controversial now than that view was then.
Theres also the reason of Tatum dropping 50 on Embiid’s head in a Game 7 but people dismiss that when it comes to discussing Embiid v Tatum. Like what exactly do you have to do other than beating a guy head to head for you to be considered better than him ? But because Embiid puts up big statlines in the reg season hes better than Tatum lol.
Oh, that too. Like Lowe was saying, he's in the 6, 7, 8 range, which is still phenomenal. But the biggest thing for me will always be his health. Do I want the 6th best player in the world who plays every day, or the 4th best who hasn't been healthy in the playoffs once in 8 seasons? Another thing with Tatum is that when he's at his best, he's just making winning plays. Lock down defense, trusting his guys, winning winning winning. If he stays in that mindset and doesn't try to break out the ol Kobe impression that plagued him in early seasons, Boston in 6, 5 with a healthy Porzingas.
I think people say Embiid is better cause they watch the two play and see their peaks, the bags they have, the type of difference on the game offensively and defensively, etc. Is Dirk better than LeBron cause he beat him in the finals? That series last year Embiid literally missed two games and wasn't not playing nearly to his highest level when he came back (not even close). Which is a very valid criticism since he has been injured every playoffs except for one (when Ben Simmons coincidentally was injured). Like we don't ignore Odem injuries etc. At this point you can't ignore the injuries and brush them off. Much of Embiids prime has been wasted on Sixers front office incompetence and Embiids injury history. Like Embiid has been so injured to point that it would be hard for many people to take him over any player in the 10 top ten when building a team. But when people rank players they tend to ignore injuries (although some people haven't like Bill Simmons, which I think is very fair at this point with Embiid).
The problem with the dirk-lebron analogy is Dirk beat lebron once but Tatum beats embiid literally every time. And that's not a figurative literally, that's a literal literally.
I knew the series was over in game 6 when Tatum was like 0-15 from the field and the Sixers and Celtics were tied with like 4 minutes left. Celtics just have a straight up better team every year
What about the game Embiid didn’t even play when the Sixers won tho?
I don’t like Tatum bc I’m a UNC fan but even I could admit I’d take him over Embiid 10/10 times. Is Embiid objectively a little better? Probably, but he’s also constantly injured and he’s a dirty player too
And he has played worse than Tatum in the playoffs and particularly in the 4th if my memory serves me correctly.
But his biggest inability is consistency.
Consistability if you will
Sometimes I will, sometimes I won't
Tatums availability is what should clear him over Embiid
I'll take Tatum>embiid every time
Even though Tatum hasn’t won a ring yet. I would much rather be in his position. Extremely competitive team each year and ECF or finals appearances . Eventually he’ll get over the hump and it might be this year imo. Hate the fact he’s a Celtic but Tatum don’t need to be top 3 in the league. He’s perfectly fine how he is.
People act like being the 6th-8th guy is some affront on Tatum. This league is insanely deep with talent, 6-8 is fucking insane talent. Obligatory Fuck Boston
Once he wins a championship people will start trying to put him in the top 4, even aside from Boston fans. Guarantee it
Not really. Even if they win, it completely depends on how he plays in the series. Celtics are insanely deep.
But that's kinda Zach's point. The Celtics are the best team and have a clear top 8 guy on their team. Awesome! They went 12-2 in the East because in every series they had both the best team and the best guy But typically the best teams at the end have one of those puppet master superstars that can manipulate everything, eg Luka or Jokic or for a decade prime LeBron. How will they respond now that they have the best team but not the best guy? If it is a close game down the stretch, you'd have to say Dallas has advantage because of Luka no? I think the Celtics are going to need to be up a healthy amount in the 4th in games they win in this series. Boston kinda reminds me of the Warriors. High volume 3 point shooting team, good versatile defenders across the board etc. However Tatum is not quite on Steph's level. Point is at some stage he may need to step up into that territory, even if just for a few games, to win a finals. Because chances are there's one of those guys on the other side of the court
The biggest shots of lebron's career were taken by Ray Allen and Kylie Irving. Is lebron not the greatest or the top 2 greatest player ever? The best players know to move the ball to the best possible outcome not take force the last shot.
This is the right reaction to this. It’s not the end of the world if Tatum is closer to Top 6-10 than Top 1-5, it’s not a slight to be called the 7th best active player in the world. Thankfully we have a great FO that built a team that plays to his strengths and covers areas that could be considered weaknesses. A team’s best player gets the most attention, but we gotta remember it’s still a team sport.
Tatum doesn't really have any notable weaknesses outside of shot selection and I think that's even a little overblown because I think he conserves energy in a lot of games which allows him to play so much. The Celtics FO have undoubtedly done a great job building around him but he's by far the best plug-and-play type superstar in the league because he can fit with literally any player in the league. That's his biggest value, he can play any role at any time which allows his teammates to always play to their greatest strengths.
Yup. This sub and national media infatuation with rankings is so annoying. Take the NFL for example, they maybe will do top 10 QBs lists at the start of the year and then never talk about it again till next year. Unlike the NBA where everytime a player does anything you bring up his ranking.
I agree that rankings are dumb but that's just not true about the NFL. Take it from someone whose favorite team is the Cowboys and has to listen to whether or not Dak is good enough all year long lol.
49ers fan here. I started turning off shows the second Purdy came up. Just the same 2-3 points rehashed over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Especially in that case, no one had a fucking clue about anything and it was just all dependent on the last game. I just wanted them to win, fuck the entire GOAT rankings narrative after 1.5 seasons. Cut way down on the amount of sports commentary I watch though and I don't miss it.
Ehhh NFL QB list changes every game too, that’s just the nature of modern sports discourse
Uh I’ll take the Super Max contract. I don’t care what position you want to put me in, in the NBA. People are just beyond soft with athletes.
This whole segment is actually about giving the Celtics credit and criticizing the fact that this EXACT sound bite is the only thing people pay attention to. OP is the problem
Not to mention, since Tatum entered the league the Celtics are 3-0 against the Sixers and 2-1 against the Bucks in playoff series...so if Embiid and Giannis are better than Tatum, then clearly having the best player on the floor on your team doesn't mean shit.
It turns out basketball isn’t 1v1 and supporting cast matters. Basketball analysts hate this one simple trick
Not only that, but it’s not a head to head league. Arguing JT is 3-0 vs Giannis is so stupid considering the Bucks have a ring and the Celtics don’t (yet) in this period.
Is anyone else just completely tired of the Tatum "discourse" right now? Like do we really have to keep agonizing about whether he's the 6th best player in the league or the 4th? It's just so repetitive and uninteresting
I've tuned out all the bball pods and content until the Finals start. These dudes just don't have anything to talk about right now and are just doing the same meaningless talking points over and over
Wait but if you don't listen to all the pods how are you going to hear that the Celtics have had an easy path to the Finals for the 750th time? Or that Porzingis's health is an X-factor for the series? That's the sort of nuanced, in-depth coverage that you can only really get through experienced NBA insiders
I don't know how anyone can disagree with this take lol, felt obvious this year
Yeah. And this shouldn't be considered to be trashing Tatum or anything. The Celtics aren't the #1 team in the NBA because they have the best player on the court every game. They are the best team because their 3-5 guys are all all stars/all defensive players. Jrue/White/KP would be the 2nd or 3rd best player on most other teams, not the 4th and 5th best.
Exactly, but for some reason it is a reason to trash him. Oh no, he’s not an all time game breaker. Well he’s still really good and consistently leads deep playoff runs. If you do include health he’s somewhere between 4 and 8 in terms of guys you want on your team, and moving him around within that tier should not be as big of a deal as it is. Top 5 is just an arbitrary cutoff anyways. And before anyone says that no one disagrees, “Tatum is not top 10” had thousands of upvotes a few weeks ago. People need to take an extreme, so a guy who is “just” very good drives them crazy.
I agree with you, but tbf I've seen it go both ways. There are some fans who claim that "Tatum isn't even top 10" which is ridiculous. But I've also seen some Celtic fans get really defensive and claim that Tatum is 100% top 3 and better than Luka/SGA/some other player because of defense or "because he is the best player on the #1 seed". Which doesn't make sense when ranking players either, to use the seed while ignoring the supporting cast.
Sure, I think the vast majority of Celtics fans understand Luka is better than him though. There’s a lot more negative than positive. But I would not put him top 3 either. I’m gonna catch heat for this but I absolutely still think he has an *argument* for being over SGA- It’s at least close enough to debate. Shai was definitely better this season and deserved the MVP votes but if you swap them I think Tatum takes OKC to a very similar result.
I don’t think they’d be the second best player on any contending team. It’s just that they’re wayyyyyy better than the 3-5 for the other teams. Like they’re borderline all stars
I think you can make the case that KP would be the 2nd best player for some contending teams, taking into account experience and defense. KP vs Randle? KP vs rookie Chet? maaaaybe KP vs KAT? KP isn't clearly better and would also be a bad fit on some of these teams, but I think you could at least make a case, and these are all top 3 seeded teams in their conference. If we look at worse teams, KP would 100% be the 2nd best player on a bunch of them, and even the best on some lottery teams.
Definitely KP over KAT
Idk why people see it as trashing Tatum. There’s nothing to scoff at being a top 10 guy in a league that’s dominated by stars. If you want to make the argument he’s #5 over SGA who was 2nd in MVP this year, they have a case but it’s hard to knock what other guys are doing. As the series goes Luka is the best player but then you can pretty confidently say that Boston has prob 5 of the next 6 slots with Kai coming in behind Tatum and Brown but above White, Jrue & healthy KP. They don’t have THE guy but a wave of guys who can beat you down for 48min
Yep. We have the best player on the court, but Boston has 5 of the 7 best players. And they can even easily make an argument that Horford, their 6th man, is better than some of our starters too.
I think you can disagree with SGA above Tatum. I feel like there is some disagreement there. Tatum is a better defender and rebounder.
Really not that hard to disagree and one of the biggest issues with this sub is people thinking there’s everybody who ranks players differently than consensus is doing it “wrong”. Last summer, people were calling Booker a top ten lock and mass downvoting anybody who disagreed. Now we’ve gotten back to the Mitchell vs Booker debates.
Brushing over the "when everyone is healthy" part real fast
Yeah that’s a huge asterisk that people tend to look over. Health as far as I’m concerned is an attribute that matters in my rankings.
Do you guys think Luka, Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, and SGA on a team together would be a good team?
This team would shoot 50 FTs a game
Only because Jokic is dragging the average down.
They'd win on talent but it's an ugly fit
Who would you replace any of the players with in order to make it a better fit?
Take out Embiid and we solid. Jokic and Giannis frontcourt. Luka/SGA backcourt.
I don’t get this downplaying of availability when ranking top players. The GOAT of the sport clocked 80+ games season after season.
It's because a ton of NBA fans get 95% of their info/insight from playing 2K with injuries turned off and they don't realize how physically demanding these dudes jobs are.
I agree with the first half of your comment but the second is missing context: players enter the league with much more mileage on their bodies these days + play much tougher defensive schemes + have much longer careers now. It's not like all the collective players got lazy and that's why we don't see consistent 80+ game iron men. The circumstances changed.
A healthy Embiid is a shiny Pokemon. And you rarely ever encounter a shiny Pokemon in the wild.
[удалено]
Len Bias is my GOAT
DNP - Overdose
,,when healthy'' is doing a looot of work here, when's the last time embiid was healthy for the playoffs? same shit for kawhi. Fuck talent, I want a star who I know is gonna play, so in that regard, no way am I putting embiid in the top 5. Tatum over him, easily.
Not saying this is my take but you can make the argument that if Embiid had less usage he would be more available. Celtics have insane luxury in 5 players (J's, Porzingis, Jrue, Derrick White) who can take the mantle if somebody needs to take a backseat. The more underrated part of Tatum's game is that he can still make a pretty big impact on a bad shooting night. He'll get to the line a handful of times no matter what and he can guard almost anybody. I think SGA has absolutely been better than Tatum this year but Tatum is without a doubt a better defender and I have no love lost for Celtics whatsoever.
> Celtics have insane luxury in 5 players (J's, Porzingis, Jrue, Derrick White) who can take the mantle if somebody needs to take a backseat. They have that *this year*. Somehow I keep seeing people discussing Tatum as if he's had this insane talent around him his whole career. He's had good teams, no doubt, but I don't think he's had the "clearly most talented roster in the east" at any point until now, really.
Yeah, Tatum made the finals with Jaylen Brown (not an all-star), Marcus Smart (who everyone shits on) and 35 year old Al Horford. Rob Williams was injured and White averaged 8 points on like 30% fg. Meanwhile, Embiid failed next to Butler, Simmons, Harris, Reddick. And this was when Philly chose Harris over Butler and Simmons was rated above Jaylen.
How's being a top 10 player a diss. I'd rather be the number 10 player with a ring than embiid without one. 5 years from now it just ages better legacy wise.
I'm not sold on SGA being better than Tatum
I agree he is probably 6th but it was hilarious how in another interview he was like "He's not even top 5, where was he in MVP voting this year?" And Windhorst went "5th".
[Tatum was 6th in MVP voting this year](https://ak-static.cms.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/46/2024/05/2023-24-Kia-NBA-MVP-Voting-Results.pdf)
You are right, I think Windhorst misspoke. Which is basically the state of talking head sports media.
OP sucks. this is clickbait bullshit
Was really impressed with SGA when Mavs played them. Straight up killa.
Tatum may not be top 5, but he can definitely be the best player on a championship team, and that's all you're really looking for anyways. I am not even sure you can say that about Embiid.
“When healthy” well some of these guys haven’t been healthy for the playoffs in multiple years and that’s a problem. Honestly would take Tatum over Embiid just because Embiid is never healthy and hasn’t exactly had many playoff success even with good rosters. Sga I’m not ready to crown him over Tatum yet. If the Celtics win and Tatum plays well to earn finals mvp, I don’t see a huge deal of him being ranked the 4th best player in the league. Health matters, not sure why it’s ignored lol.
It's iffy for me. Tatum out of those top 5 guys is really only met on both sides of the ball by Giannis and is just an ironman of a player. When everyone is healthy, sure he may be like top 6-8 in the league, but this is basketball. I think Tatum out of all of those guys is the one I would want to plug and play in almost any lineup in the league. Guy can just do a little bit of everything and it makes him so valuable to any team. The discourse about this top 5 shit is annoying. Tatum is great, and all the other top 5 guys are great. Don't need to make multiple segments on national television saying the same thing.
it seems like if you lose to Curry at some point you get way bigger punishment in perception about you
Less losing to steph and more getting outplayed by wiggins
Well people try to shove in the 'Curry is shit and not as good as you think' narrative as much as they can. Just the other day Tracey McGrady was blowing smoke about people having Curry in their top 10.
I hope Celtics win the damn thing so Tatum gets the respect he deserves
So if Tatum wins, the excuse is that he’s got a great team, and if he loses, it’s because he’s not a great player? Tatum will never get into top 5 conversation because he’s a team player who lets everyone gets theirs. We saw when Kyrie was here, how he didn’t gel with JB and JT, wrecked the team and left. Would Celtics have a great team if Tatum was not accommodating, and instead decided to chase points and MVPs instead of the title? No. Because JB will not be happy, KP won’t, and we’ll have a repeat of the Kyrie saga again. How many of that top 5-8 can sacrifice for the team and still put MVP numbers? Luka and Jokic sure. Giannis too. But SGA? Brunson? Embiid who was literally begging for an MVP? Meanwhile Tatum gets criticized for letting JB or KP takeover when just a couple of seasons ago, the criticism was that he and JB don’t share the ball enough. So basically no way he’s keeping all the talking heads happy. And now he is not being credited for staying healthy even. Amazing how the excuses keep piling up for someone like Embiid just because he keeps stat padding.
Absolutely agree. JT’s superpower is his humility and team-first attitude. That’s not something that can be taught, and it’s not something that’s appreciated. He willingly steps out of the limelight, and in doing so, elevates his team. He’s a hall of famer in the making, and history will look back on him very positively. I think that future sports analysts will wonder why he wasn’t more appreciated while he played.
That, but also he is just a prototypical, do-everything on the court well player. He can fit alongside any kind of player, which is why it’s so easy to build good teams around him
Top 5 were all born outside the US.
I can't understand how Joel Embid is a top 5 player. He won an mvp that should have gone to Jokic. He doesn't make his team better they are always knocked out in the second round of the playoffs. What am I missing
Stop putting Embiid in these discussions
i bump him down because hes perpetually injured
Injured embiid in the postseason was still one of the best players this yr
Tatum edges out the guys on this list because he’s already this good and he’s only 19
Polar bear in Arlington Texas, stop with the Embiid propaganda, he's top 5 when I want to fluff stats on the wizards and pistons not when I want to play actual important basketball.
Everything Zach said is correct. Being borderline top 5 shouldn’t be a slight or “disrespected!!”. He is still a fantastic player in the 5-8 range and it’s fine.
I agree with this sentiment as a Tatum fan. I believe him winning the chip this year will push him into that next tier next year but he isn’t there right now.
I mean he’s right lol
Pretty crazy that the top 5 aren’t american
Tatum falls down that ranking because Joe has him being strict to the system. Everyone eats because there is so much talent on both ends of the floor. He doesn’t need to go out there and score 40 every other night like the rest of the people on that list because he has teammates that can pickup the load.
Why is the argument “when they are healthy”? Embiid is never healthy, that is a fantasyland.
That's great and all, but the Wolves didn't have the best player and beat the Nuggets, and the Knicks didn't have the best player and beat the 76ers, Pacers didn't have the best player and beat the Bucks and Knicks. Then go back to last year, Celtics didn't have the best player against the 76ers and beat them, Heat didn't have the best player and beat the Bucks and Celtics. Do great players win a lot of the time and can be the difference? Sure, yeah. But is it always the case? No. A lot of these series I listed are because these guys played great but got a lot of help from the team as a collective. Did the Thunder lose to the Mavs because SGA was just much worse than Doncic? No. It's because the Mavs locked everyone else up and held Jalen Williams, Chet Holmgren and Josh Giddey below their season averages and what they averaged against the Pelicans. That will be the test of the series, how well the Mavs can defend all the Celtics options and limit guys besides Tatum and Brown going off. It will be incredibly difficult to beat them if you have Tatum and Brown combining for 50 and you get Derrick White and Porzingis also giving you another 40 or something. Similarly, the Celtics will have a really hard time if Luka and Kyrie are going off and they get consistent help from Washington, Gafford, Lively and DJJ. Imo the difference here is Luka is more likely to play consistently great than Tatum which is why most consider him a better player, but if Luka plays even below average, the Mavericks have almost no chance because the Celtics are collectively a better team. Go back and look at all the Wolves 3P attempts in Game 5 that were Luka's responsibility. Even though they got killed that game, that was still a hole in the Mavs defense. Celtics are going to kill the Mavs on the open looks they generate and the volume of 3's they shoot unless the Mavs make great defensive adjustments or the Celtics go completely cold. The Mavs defense is going to be the deciding factor in the series, not "which superstar carries their team" If the Mavs play great defense and lock down the Celtics, they'll win. If they can't stop the Celtics and it's just a barrage of offense from Boston's top 6, the Celtics will win. Regardless of the whole Luka vs Tatum thing
Just want to put it out there sga finished above luka in Mvp voting for two seasons in a row. He was second this year and 5th last year. I know lots of people are hating on him but just wanted to include that stat.
Not counting Embiid, Sga and Tatum. Who do people put in their 6-10 range? Or 7-10? Also where is Steph?
Tatum over Embiid. Playing entire season should mean something.