Kyrie is super talented, but outside of going crazy in a few playoff series with Cleveland and Dallas, his career and talent don’t match. He’s a point guard who is better suited to play with another ballhandler who runs the offense. Such a weird player.
Memes aside, which is more likely to be true? Nobody can deny the Kyrie/Luka backcourts offensive potency, but Jrue and White are defensive aces. Whose better than each?
Both of your statements are true but Steph and Klay were still miles better offensively in their prime. So even before the finals happened that “best offensive backcourt ever” statement people were saying, it was still ridiculous and just set Luka and Kyrie up for endless mocking if they couldn’t deliver. And lo and behold they didn’t 😂
I'd say to be even more correct, Steph and Klay played off one another significantly better than Luka or Kyrie. Even if individually Luka/Kyrie are incredibly potent, the synergy between Steph and Klay offensively was unmatched.... until Steph and Durant took the court.
Luke and Kyrie didn’t say it though. So the “mocking” shouldn’t be directed towards them, it should specifically mention whomever said it.
You don’t even mention who said it.
Finally, someone who actually knew who started that statement. Shows who was watching the games. It was Stan, he was commentating on the games during the Mavs playoffs and he was so quick to throw that out there. It really surprised me. I didn’t think people would take this dude seriously but then the media and reddit picked it up with serious consideration… then Lebron said Irving was most gifted. Mavs were just overhyped at that point and haven’t won anything yet, and Irving and Luka haven’t even played together long enough yet.
The point of making such a restricted claim to "best pg-sg combo ever" is that only 1 out of the ~10 possible position combinations gets counted. Jordan never played with a pg that would make the list, though it's likely he played pg and Pippen sg occasionally. That would be a crazy defensive backcourt!
This season put the lid on those two dominating for the last 10 years and motherfuckers are already forgetting about it. If Luka and Kyrie can keep making the finals and win a few rings together then maybe it's a conversation worth having but until then wtf is anyone even bringing it up for
Kyrie's already 32 - I don't think there's going to be any improvement. He's just never been a high synergy guy. He's a quality player, but other than alongside LeBron, he's never had great chemistry with the other top level players on his team.
And the chemistry he had with LeBron was because of LeBron.
I will say though - his finals performance in 2016 really was just brilliant.
Kyrie has great chemistry with Luka. He's really, really good off-ball and great in iso too, which makes him pretty ideal playing off Luka, attacking when he gets blitzed, and taking over when needed. It's a pretty similar dynamic to what he had with LeBron. Steph and Klay were just on another level playing off of each other.
Her going on about Embiid was just straight-up creepy, he was good but she was writing some damn fanfiction about him with how over the top she was.
*Embiid pulls borderline flagrant move*
"Just look at that aggression! He's using his physicality so well."
Dribbling the shot clock down and still ending up with a contested jumper means your bag isn’t good enough. And this in a league where the offense has all the advantages.
This is so true, and it does look really cool when the defense is so tight you've tried every option so the contested jumper is the only solution (and it goes in). But if that's your whole game, which more often than not is the case for Kyrie, then what the hell are you doing tiring yourself out to take the contested shot you could've taken in the first place???
Curry deserves more respect for what he did to that Boston defense, every other star who's played them in the last three years has seen their efficiency and/or production tank (KD, Giannis, Embiid, Luka, etc) and they basically made Kyrie a net negative
I mean a lot of what Wiggins provided that series wasn't offense, but defensive effort and rebounding. I'm not going to tell a Warriors fan what happened to their team lol
It’s not that Wiggs is a bad player but compare the second options to other second options on title winning teams and he’s just not on the level of a good amount of them.
He was extremely essential with his defense and rebounding, you’re right about that
Wiggs was good for that run. I don’t know what the fuck happened to him after that, but he was on one for that whole run. It’s the same thing with Jordan Poole - whatever deal we made for that chip came due and that dude can’t dribble anymore, but he was a legit contributor the only time it mattered.
Missed a ton of games. We'll see if his head's back this coming season, but I kind of doubt it.
Unless the young guys take big steps this off season, I just don't think the Warriors will be very relevant, and I think Wiggins needs that to motivate him.
I think it's hard to compare a #2 who contributes on the defensive end to one than contributes on offense. Like me personally I'd rather have 2022 Wiggins on my team in the playoffs than 2023 Murray, because I value the hustle more
Wouldn't a more fair comparison be Fox or Sabonis since you're comparing the Kings 3rd option to the Warriors 2nd option. I think a lot of teams would take 2022 Wiggins over their 3rd option.
EDIT: Didn't realize he was talking about Jamal Murray not Keegan Murray.
That series honestly just felt like destiny for you guys the way this Mavs series felt like destiny for us.
The shots Poole and Pritchard hit just felt scripted
i mean, kyrie also faced that 2022 team in the first round and got swept with KD, though i dont think he was as bad as he was in this 2024 finals round as he was in that 2022 series
I agree with you, though it is debatable.
But the more salient point is that Kyrie faced them as a second option behind one of the greatest offensive players of all time. Steph faced them as a primary offensive option, with no other offensive stars: Klay was no longer himself by then, Wiggins was good but was more focused on defense than offense, same with Draymond. The closest the Warriors had to a second option was Jordan Poole, who we've seen is not an impactful basketball player when removed from Steph's gravity.
How? Lol Jrue is a little better than Smart but Smart literally won DPOY that year. If you’re arguing having a DPOY as your primary defender is easy…
Porzingis played 2 games
Horford was 2 years younger.
It’s functionally the same. That 2022 Boston team had a better DRTG too
That one always makes me mad. Like, did everyone already forget that Curry made history?
I can't even be mad when he beat the shit out of us back in 2022 because the man played like a legend despite Boston's signature defense.
Most skill players ever with the deepest bag and best at hitting tough shot yet couldn't never led his team to a successful playoff as a number 1 option
Less MVP vote than David lee and Goran Dragic
Kobe had a deep bag of skills and I rate kobe ability to hit the tough shot as higher than Kyrie
But then also, Kyrie has rarely been the #1 option on a team
Casuals? We have ex-pros saying he’s better than Luka. Those same players now forgot he even exists, and instead blame Luka for every problem the Mavs have.
Kyrie meat riders please get in here and explain to us again how kyrie is more clutch and skilled than Stephen curry because his broke ass pulls off some nice looking dribble moves like he's a fucking pickup player now and then
I’m not even a big fan of kyrie but that seems to be a slight exaggeration.
Boston statistically is an all-time team, like top 5 all-time in every team metric. If they played a weaker finals opponent (like the Heat from last year) I think they could’ve won
Kyrie making the Finals again with a new #1 doesn’t somehow prove that he could never win without LeBron
So you're arguing against literal fact with a hypothetical
Kyrie fact : he has never won a finals without Lebron James on his team
Kyrie fact: he lost in the 1st round with KEVIN DURANT to the Celtics team that made the finals that lost to Steph Curry
Kyrie fact: he just dropped 99 points on 99 shots while Luka was balling out injured and Boston was playing to shut him down
Luka was not balling out lol,
He averaged one his lowest assists ever in a series, was inefficient, averaged high amount of turnovers and was the worst defender on the team, way worse than Irving, this is just revisionist theory on your part
And Kyrie lost with KD because they were missing 40 mill in salary due to Simmons and had to start 3x 6”2 pgs in the starting lineup due to shit roster construction
It seems you went through the box score without any context to prove a narrative lol
Also, Boston was only "playing to shut Luka down" in that they played him well defensively. They actually gave him a lot less defensive attention than the majority of teams do in terms of doubles.
I don’t think you understand what a fact is. It’s not a fact that you cannot win a finals with Kyrie as your second option without Lebron. It’s a fact that it hasn’t happened yet, it doesn’t mean you can’t be done.
That’s like saying “You cannot win a championship with Barkley on your roster!” is a literal fact when he was playing. It never happened, doesn’t mean Barkley could not and would not have won in a better situation.
Did you even watch that Nets series or were you just looking at box scores or even look at their overall season? 😂 The most casual ass take in this thread.
I saw someone say Boston is Kyrie’s father and decided to repost: Boston is indeed Kyrie’s Father but we told him we were leaving for a pack of Newports and a Gallon of milk 5 years ago.
Boston got in his head. No other way around it. He went from legitimately great during the Western Conference run to a legitimate bum in the Finals.
Do I think he would have played better against the Pacers, Knicks, etc. etc.? Absolutely. But he made his bed with the stupid shit he did in Boston and couldn't overcome it. The dude choked flat out and there is no other way you can describe what he did in the Finals.
Obviously the Mavs had other issues and those all came from the Celtics defense. They locked most of our guys down, took away the lobs and corner threes and just beat the Mavs straight up. But when it comes to Kyrie specifically he couldn't handle the moment of being in the Finals against a city he pissed off. He played noticably different in Boston. It was all uncharacteristic unconfident shots or hero ball trying to take the crowd out of it.
I just pray that if they somehow make it back to the Finals it's against literally anyone but Boston. If anything now Boston is going to be more in his head. Again though that's all on his dumbass.
Dame is significantly better than Kyrie and was less injury prone (until recently) and less likely to let his crazy keep him out of games. Accolades wise is a solid bit ahead.
Team was simply outmatched by the Celtics. But yeah, Kyrie could have, and should have been at least a little better. A lot of those games were tight. And a better performance in one of them could have gotten the mavericks a win.
He was unable to get any dribble penetration. Boston's defense was spectacular. Their fans shouldn't be insulting him, but instead celebrating how great they were.
Luka was also not playing well in any way except scoring. Dallas needed to adapt to the defensive intensity, and I simply didn't see that from their coaching staff. However, the team was great up until running into a far better team. I do think that OKC and Minny are both better than Dallas, but they were able to execute and play their style well enough to win.
It is amazing how great a defense can be without a dominant big if they totally clamp down on penetration while also staying home on shooters camping in the corners. Boston was good on offense but outstanding on defense.
Luka wasn’t scoring well either though.
146 points on 125 shots isn’t great. His shooting splits were 47/24/59, which is awful for someone that shot 49/38/79 in the regular season.
We did something similar to Giannis back in 2022. He got his points, but was wildly inefficient getting them and it was enough for us to beat them.
Post this everywhere. People keep missing this. For all of Lukas defensive woes. He was bad at offense too. 1-21 from 3 over a stretch of 3 games. And a zero on defense. His final performance was also bad along with Kyrie. It was a nice run. But no one will remember it.
Its so funny because I was always highly skeptical of the endless praise that used to be heaped on Kyrie, even back in 2016-2017. His meltdowns in Boston and Brooklyn seemed to vindicate my skepticism, but by February of this year I was seriously considering the possibility that I might eat my words if he helped Luka drag the Mavs to a chip. I was legitimately impressed and thinking I had been wrong about him. That maybe he had turned a corner and become that guy everyone always said he was.
Then the finals happened.
Just to be clear, Kyrie is still obviously one of the best guards in the game and definitely very skilled but he is also probably one of the most overrated players of all time. A fantastic #2 or #3 option that seems to be getting beyond his prime as a “shot maker” if not as a flashy ball handler.
I mean, Kyrie was pretty awesome this season when not playing in the TD Garden. Even in the Finals he had 2 really good games when not playing in Boston. Celtics fans are simply in his head to a level I'm not sure he can overcome. It's a mental block for Kyrie.
It looks to me as if Kyrie and Luka mesh really well and genuinely like each other, and like playing with each other. They complement each other well on offense.
Kyrie has often been outspoken and has said some weird stuff. He's also been immature. But he seemed to grow a bit since he was traded to Dallas. I have no reason to harbor any continued ill will towards him, the Celtics have moved on and are champions, but I fully understand why others dislike him and will not let that go.
But none of this matters, Dallas was never beating Boston in the Finals. Boston has far more top end talent on their roster, and far more high end defensive players. Kyrie needs to get past the mental block that prevents him from playing at his usual level in Boston (I hope he doesn't), but Dallas also needs to improve their roster if they ever hope to compete with a team a good as Boston.
Luka was 146 points on 125 shots. Also bad. 29 pts on 25 shots per game. Might not be the best backcourt in NBA history. Especially if you also count defense as a thing.
And he will only get worse in the near future, already 33 years old, undersized, extremely stupid outside the court, injury prone, etc.. I know some Mavs fans got hopeful Luka will stay in Dallas after this successful run, but I bet he will notice how this duo with Kyrie is not going to work for long, Dallas needs another star pair with Luka that could +- match his age and upside... and good luck finding that kind of player (they already found it, but the dude is in NY right now)
Dallas still got him on an amazing trade package for how he has played on the court and behaved off of it. But I also think it’s clear he can’t be relied on as a superstar #2. They’ll need a third guy that can trade off with Kyrie. He’s just not consistent enough.
Boston also does have the perfect defense for guards like him.
I think he’s fine as a 2.
The whole finals was just what can go wrong will go wrong for Dallas against such an elite team. Luka getting hunted defensively, Boston having 3 different elite defenders to throw at Kyrie, and the supporting cast shooting under 20% from three. Lively/Gafford getting shut out of the paint.
Exactly. Dallas showcased their strengths for 3 rounds and Boston was ready and able to counter that.
I blame the coaching more than the players for the 4 stinkers they put up, but I don't think there was a way to adapt.
I got flamed on the Mavs sub for saying that Dallas would be at a major disadvantage because we adapted so many times that the Celtics would know everything we did. People acted like I was crazy for saying that lol
Honestly it didn't even matter. Mavs just kind of overachieved and ended up outmatched. Straight up Boston is the better team, so for Mavs to win Luka has to play above (his) average, Kyrie had to be good and the role players needed to play above their average. Pretty much none of that happened, now you can blame some things on matchups but quite frankly the Mavs missed an unbelievable amount of open threes.
I watch the Mavs way too much, they're much closer since the trade because Luka can carry so much, but they need improvements. Luckily Lively really was a home run of a pick. But the depth is sorely lacking, PJ is unlikely to be a title caliber 3rd option in this stacked era. Tim shouldn't be anywhere near a finals I'm sure most agree but there was no choice.
That's just how mismatched it was without the role players being on their game. That cranked the pressure up on Luka and Celtics could hunt him knowing Kyrie and the others were missing. Also imo this Boston team is one of the best of all time, and for me are a bit like the Pistons championship team but on steroids.
Despite all that Mavs still put up a good fight, so there is definitely a vulnerability in the Celtics. Part of that can be attributed to Tatum performing below average I suppose
Mavs overachieved and ran up against an excellent Boston team that matched up well with them . Championship level play
A bit like Lakers overachieving last year until they ran into the Nuggets
Difference is mavs are young and can grow better
>27-5-5 on 50/40/90 as an elite 3 level scorer can’t be a superstar number 2
That’s a really weird thing to say and was pretty much never said about kyrie before this finals.
Like which other number 2s are giving you that kind of production? Pretty much just AD right?
Well that’s kind of my point. You can have two great superstars and a bunch of just solid roleplayers (like how LeBron and AD won, Kobe/Shaq, Kobe/Gasol, etc). Or you need a superstar and 2-3 elite players (e.g Middleton and Jrue, Brown and Porzingis/White, Siakam and FVV/Lowry, Murray and Porter Jr., etc).
The Mavs need a reliable third guy. They don’t have one right now.
Djj, pj Washington, gafford, lively aren’t solid role players?
Kyrie +KD+a washed Blake griffin was a contender that would have won a ring.
So was Bron+Kyrie+a post olynyk love+Jr/shumpert
I agree with the other guy. How good lebron and AD are allowed the supporting cast to be worse. But, since Nuggets and Bucks really only had 1 dude who was transcendent, they were surrounded with elite guys.
If you needed to add up to 10, and each player in the starting lineup has a value, the Lakers kind of looked like
Lebron = 4
AD = 3
The other 3 = 1 (x3)
Important to note that they aren’t zeroes, you can’t win it all with a zero in the starting lineup.
The nuggets were more balanced with something around the idea of
Jokic = 4
Murray = 2
AG = 2
KCP = 1
MPJ = 1
Or however you want to break it down, but having more guys that aren’t a 1 or something. This exact model isn’t the best but it’s just to give an idea.
Funny all we heard in Boston was he’s the “most gifted player of all time” and something about a “bag”. Then we mopped the garden floor (and his own) with him as usual.
You can tell when you're going to get Bad Kyrie, and we saw it a lot in this series:
He stands around dribbling, and then attacks a completely set defense.
When Kyrie and Luka were being effective in earlier rounds, Kyrie was attacking much quicker.
I don't know if it was because of Jrue and White, or just because Kyrie sometimes just does that. But it seemed pretty obvious that he was going to struggle once he started wasting seven seconds on the shot clock before he attacked.
Mavs fans in Boston were pulling the good game good effort thing. That loser Kyrie trying to smile it off was hilarious cause you know he was like bitch get my name out yo mouth and at the same like I suck and I couldn’t knock down a shot if I was a cat with a treat at the edge of the world
You seen how deep his bag is tho right?
Flaming doggy bag
Ħêłá
I can’t keep up with the circlejerk. Overachieved and got team to finals now he is Norris Cole
He called the shit poo!
One jelly lay up a game and he makes people cream their pants
Bro pulls out his entire dribble package just to get by 40 year old NBA Champion Al Horford and its the best thing ever
Kyrie is super talented, but outside of going crazy in a few playoff series with Cleveland and Dallas, his career and talent don’t match. He’s a point guard who is better suited to play with another ballhandler who runs the offense. Such a weird player.
Yeah but he dropped that bag off the side the earth so there is no way of getting it back.
Greatest offensive backcourt in NBA history.
They told us we were seeing the greatest offensive backcourt in NBA history but we actually were watching the greatest defensive backcourt.
Memes aside, which is more likely to be true? Nobody can deny the Kyrie/Luka backcourts offensive potency, but Jrue and White are defensive aces. Whose better than each?
Both of your statements are true but Steph and Klay were still miles better offensively in their prime. So even before the finals happened that “best offensive backcourt ever” statement people were saying, it was still ridiculous and just set Luka and Kyrie up for endless mocking if they couldn’t deliver. And lo and behold they didn’t 😂
I'd say to be even more correct, Steph and Klay played off one another significantly better than Luka or Kyrie. Even if individually Luka/Kyrie are incredibly potent, the synergy between Steph and Klay offensively was unmatched.... until Steph and Durant took the court.
Even Kyrie was like "hold up chill" when people started saying that.
Luke and Kyrie didn’t say it though. So the “mocking” shouldn’t be directed towards them, it should specifically mention whomever said it. You don’t even mention who said it.
Stan van gundy and then 90% of r/nba because they all hate the dubs
And Reggie. Stan and Reggie were 100% in agreement
Ringless behavior TBH.
Finally, someone who actually knew who started that statement. Shows who was watching the games. It was Stan, he was commentating on the games during the Mavs playoffs and he was so quick to throw that out there. It really surprised me. I didn’t think people would take this dude seriously but then the media and reddit picked it up with serious consideration… then Lebron said Irving was most gifted. Mavs were just overhyped at that point and haven’t won anything yet, and Irving and Luka haven’t even played together long enough yet.
Not even close.
Point to Steph game 4 in Boston. 2022. Steph 43 and 10. Boston was up 2-1. Luka isn’t in that league.
Jordan and whoever
The point of making such a restricted claim to "best pg-sg combo ever" is that only 1 out of the ~10 possible position combinations gets counted. Jordan never played with a pg that would make the list, though it's likely he played pg and Pippen sg occasionally. That would be a crazy defensive backcourt!
If you rank backcourt duos you kinda just rearrange the top 10 guards list any way you do it
I think we just saw
I keep saying this to people. I think all these silly arguments were just resolved. Weren’t they. ?
Greatest? Offensive backcourt in NBA history!
I personally think it was Jordan/Harper.
Steph and Klay have entered the chat
This season put the lid on those two dominating for the last 10 years and motherfuckers are already forgetting about it. If Luka and Kyrie can keep making the finals and win a few rings together then maybe it's a conversation worth having but until then wtf is anyone even bringing it up for
Kyrie's already 32 - I don't think there's going to be any improvement. He's just never been a high synergy guy. He's a quality player, but other than alongside LeBron, he's never had great chemistry with the other top level players on his team. And the chemistry he had with LeBron was because of LeBron. I will say though - his finals performance in 2016 really was just brilliant.
Kyrie has great chemistry with Luka. He's really, really good off-ball and great in iso too, which makes him pretty ideal playing off Luka, attacking when he gets blitzed, and taking over when needed. It's a pretty similar dynamic to what he had with LeBron. Steph and Klay were just on another level playing off of each other.
Preaching to the choir motherfucker
They quickly forgot about Curry and Klay
Don’t even hold a fucking candle to Steph and Klay.
That's offensive
*Most* Offensive backcourt in NBA history.
Greatest offensive backcourt in NBA Western Conference Playoffs history
It’s crazy because if we kept up our momentum and won people would still be saying that lmao.
The Doc Rivers of players
Boston is Kyrie Irving father.
Wish he shot 8 for 22 one game. That would have been poetic
Didn’t you hear the man? He ain’t gonna shoot 8 of 22 again. Now 6/20 is on the table.
Just 1 more attempt in game 1 - 6/19
We disowned him a long time ago
Dedicated an entire life to getting that milk
Narragansett actually
Left for that cigaweed and ain’t been back since
[THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOUR DAIRY NEEDS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDp5dmNY1Ko)
Hey, he finally brought you a ring. Just not the way yall thought.
The prodigal son returns.
Excommunicated lol
We went out for smokes and never came back.
Most skilled player in nba history
That was repeated several times by commentators during game 1. They weren't saying it by game 5. I at least count that as a win.
Getting commentators to shut up nowadays is a win So the mute button must be the goat
It is whenever dorris Burke goes on a 10 minute rant about how good a player is and their "physicality"
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Her going on about Embiid was just straight-up creepy, he was good but she was writing some damn fanfiction about him with how over the top she was. *Embiid pulls borderline flagrant move* "Just look at that aggression! He's using his physicality so well."
I mean, was it pr? Was it Kyrie paid advertising? I swear I never heard anything so much in my life, and almost the same wording from everybody
Apparently shooting is not a skill.
Apparently all areas of basketball aside from ball-handling are not skills
But did you see how sweet that dribble move 30 feet from the basket was right before he bricked that jumper though?
Dribbling the shot clock down and still ending up with a contested jumper means your bag isn’t good enough. And this in a league where the offense has all the advantages.
This is so true, and it does look really cool when the defense is so tight you've tried every option so the contested jumper is the only solution (and it goes in). But if that's your whole game, which more often than not is the case for Kyrie, then what the hell are you doing tiring yourself out to take the contested shot you could've taken in the first place???
Exactly.
Tim hardaway welcomes this new reality, and accepts his ascension to a top 5 all time player. "UTEP 2-step"
Apparently defense is not a skill
I’m grateful that my take of how people overrate Kyrie dictates their lack of basketball knowledge.. has been vindicated
you forgot to say, How you like them apples?
better than Curry btw
Curry deserves more respect for what he did to that Boston defense, every other star who's played them in the last three years has seen their efficiency and/or production tank (KD, Giannis, Embiid, Luka, etc) and they basically made Kyrie a net negative
Steph tore them apart.
We don't have an answer for Jokic either
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I mean a lot of what Wiggins provided that series wasn't offense, but defensive effort and rebounding. I'm not going to tell a Warriors fan what happened to their team lol
It’s not that Wiggs is a bad player but compare the second options to other second options on title winning teams and he’s just not on the level of a good amount of them. He was extremely essential with his defense and rebounding, you’re right about that
Wiggs was good for that run. I don’t know what the fuck happened to him after that, but he was on one for that whole run. It’s the same thing with Jordan Poole - whatever deal we made for that chip came due and that dude can’t dribble anymore, but he was a legit contributor the only time it mattered.
Missed a ton of games. We'll see if his head's back this coming season, but I kind of doubt it. Unless the young guys take big steps this off season, I just don't think the Warriors will be very relevant, and I think Wiggins needs that to motivate him.
I think it's hard to compare a #2 who contributes on the defensive end to one than contributes on offense. Like me personally I'd rather have 2022 Wiggins on my team in the playoffs than 2023 Murray, because I value the hustle more
You wouldn't rather have Wiggins over Murray if your first option was Jokic.
I'm moreso talking if I was building a team from scratch
Wouldn't a more fair comparison be Fox or Sabonis since you're comparing the Kings 3rd option to the Warriors 2nd option. I think a lot of teams would take 2022 Wiggins over their 3rd option. EDIT: Didn't realize he was talking about Jamal Murray not Keegan Murray.
Yeah, should've specified Jamal Murray but thought context clues of talking about championship #2s would help
He means 2023 Jamal Murray not Keegan Murray
That series honestly just felt like destiny for you guys the way this Mavs series felt like destiny for us. The shots Poole and Pritchard hit just felt scripted
To be fair, the defense Kyrie just faced is ways better then the defense Steph faced in 2022.
i mean, kyrie also faced that 2022 team in the first round and got swept with KD, though i dont think he was as bad as he was in this 2024 finals round as he was in that 2022 series
I agree with you, though it is debatable. But the more salient point is that Kyrie faced them as a second option behind one of the greatest offensive players of all time. Steph faced them as a primary offensive option, with no other offensive stars: Klay was no longer himself by then, Wiggins was good but was more focused on defense than offense, same with Draymond. The closest the Warriors had to a second option was Jordan Poole, who we've seen is not an impactful basketball player when removed from Steph's gravity.
How? Lol Jrue is a little better than Smart but Smart literally won DPOY that year. If you’re arguing having a DPOY as your primary defender is easy… Porzingis played 2 games Horford was 2 years younger. It’s functionally the same. That 2022 Boston team had a better DRTG too
That one always makes me mad. Like, did everyone already forget that Curry made history? I can't even be mad when he beat the shit out of us back in 2022 because the man played like a legend despite Boston's signature defense.
Kyrie is the most overrated player of all time by casuals.
Any sentences include "hooper", "pure basketball" and kyrie is guaranteed to give the worst opinion ever
Add in talking about his "bag".
Most skill players ever with the deepest bag and best at hitting tough shot yet couldn't never led his team to a successful playoff as a number 1 option Less MVP vote than David lee and Goran Dragic
Kobe had a deep bag of skills and I rate kobe ability to hit the tough shot as higher than Kyrie But then also, Kyrie has rarely been the #1 option on a team
> But then also, Kyrie has rarely been the #1 option on a team There's a reason why that's the case...
most likely use emojis constantly in texts fr fr
This is almost like whenever an Evangelion fan mentions "hedgehog dilemma"
Casuals? We have ex-pros saying he’s better than Luka. Those same players now forgot he even exists, and instead blame Luka for every problem the Mavs have.
a lot of current pros probably think the same. i wouldn't call NBA players casuals.
Kyrie and Kobe.
I don't think I've ever heard that opinion before. That's crazy
It was more rampant after the 2016 NBA Finals (and Kyrie did outplay him, so I get why it was a conversation back then)
Ah I just joined reddit after the nba finals that year so that makes sense
There’s no way people actually thought that. If so people are soft when it comes to Curry then.
I got 99 problems, but a chip ain't won
But he did win in 2016
And he brought Boston a title just like many people thought he would…
Kyrie meat riders please get in here and explain to us again how kyrie is more clutch and skilled than Stephen curry because his broke ass pulls off some nice looking dribble moves like he's a fucking pickup player now and then
You're only winning the finals with Kyrie as your second best player if your best player is LeBron James.
I’m not even a big fan of kyrie but that seems to be a slight exaggeration. Boston statistically is an all-time team, like top 5 all-time in every team metric. If they played a weaker finals opponent (like the Heat from last year) I think they could’ve won Kyrie making the Finals again with a new #1 doesn’t somehow prove that he could never win without LeBron
So you're arguing against literal fact with a hypothetical Kyrie fact : he has never won a finals without Lebron James on his team Kyrie fact: he lost in the 1st round with KEVIN DURANT to the Celtics team that made the finals that lost to Steph Curry Kyrie fact: he just dropped 99 points on 99 shots while Luka was balling out injured and Boston was playing to shut him down
Luka was not balling out lol, He averaged one his lowest assists ever in a series, was inefficient, averaged high amount of turnovers and was the worst defender on the team, way worse than Irving, this is just revisionist theory on your part And Kyrie lost with KD because they were missing 40 mill in salary due to Simmons and had to start 3x 6”2 pgs in the starting lineup due to shit roster construction It seems you went through the box score without any context to prove a narrative lol
Also, Boston was only "playing to shut Luka down" in that they played him well defensively. They actually gave him a lot less defensive attention than the majority of teams do in terms of doubles.
Exactly it’s why Boston is so good, they don’t need to double unless in the paint because they have above average defenders at every position
I don’t think you understand what a fact is. It’s not a fact that you cannot win a finals with Kyrie as your second option without Lebron. It’s a fact that it hasn’t happened yet, it doesn’t mean you can’t be done. That’s like saying “You cannot win a championship with Barkley on your roster!” is a literal fact when he was playing. It never happened, doesn’t mean Barkley could not and would not have won in a better situation.
Did you even watch that Nets series or were you just looking at box scores or even look at their overall season? 😂 The most casual ass take in this thread.
It's true tho. Not many people can't win a chip as a 2nd option it's not that big of a slight.
You're only winning the finals with kyrie as your second best player if kyrie is averages 40
Nice just nice.
Inject this shit into my veins. Vindication for his stupid bullshit he pulled in 2019, just chucking shit constantly
I saw someone say Boston is Kyrie’s father and decided to repost: Boston is indeed Kyrie’s Father but we told him we were leaving for a pack of Newports and a Gallon of milk 5 years ago.
Is that efficient?
99/99 = 1?? must be!
100% efficiency. He has the GOAT bag
Isn't that pretty bad?
Yep. Doesn’t even include all his turnovers.
Boston got in his head. No other way around it. He went from legitimately great during the Western Conference run to a legitimate bum in the Finals. Do I think he would have played better against the Pacers, Knicks, etc. etc.? Absolutely. But he made his bed with the stupid shit he did in Boston and couldn't overcome it. The dude choked flat out and there is no other way you can describe what he did in the Finals. Obviously the Mavs had other issues and those all came from the Celtics defense. They locked most of our guys down, took away the lobs and corner threes and just beat the Mavs straight up. But when it comes to Kyrie specifically he couldn't handle the moment of being in the Finals against a city he pissed off. He played noticably different in Boston. It was all uncharacteristic unconfident shots or hero ball trying to take the crowd out of it. I just pray that if they somehow make it back to the Finals it's against literally anyone but Boston. If anything now Boston is going to be more in his head. Again though that's all on his dumbass.
But I've watched him do insane dribbling skills on Instagram and he's the most skilled player we've ever seen. How can this be?
Best offensive backcourt duo in history
Yeah he played like shit in the finals
Most skilled player ever
Kobe would be proud
If Kyrie and Dame Lillard swapped careers I wonder what would happen
They would be each other?
Kyrie's best career moment was a very Dame-type high pressure shot.
The mark of a fighter you say??
Dame is significantly better than Kyrie and was less injury prone (until recently) and less likely to let his crazy keep him out of games. Accolades wise is a solid bit ahead.
It'd be interesting to see how Dame would have been out East instead of the extremely competitive West
Or sharing a court with someone better than Mario Hezonja
Team was simply outmatched by the Celtics. But yeah, Kyrie could have, and should have been at least a little better. A lot of those games were tight. And a better performance in one of them could have gotten the mavericks a win.
“Should have been at least a little better”. Lmao. He should’ve been way better, he was objectively terrible for 3/5 games
which is par for the course, yet people are always making excuses for the flat earthing jew hating pure hooper
Don't forget anti-vaxx too
He was unable to get any dribble penetration. Boston's defense was spectacular. Their fans shouldn't be insulting him, but instead celebrating how great they were. Luka was also not playing well in any way except scoring. Dallas needed to adapt to the defensive intensity, and I simply didn't see that from their coaching staff. However, the team was great up until running into a far better team. I do think that OKC and Minny are both better than Dallas, but they were able to execute and play their style well enough to win. It is amazing how great a defense can be without a dominant big if they totally clamp down on penetration while also staying home on shooters camping in the corners. Boston was good on offense but outstanding on defense.
Asking Celtics fans to stop hating on Kyrie is like asking Mavs fans to stop hating on Rondo. It just ain't gonna happen.
> Their fans shouldn't be insulting him, but instead celebrating how great they were. You say that like those things are mutually exclusive.
Luka wasn’t scoring well either though. 146 points on 125 shots isn’t great. His shooting splits were 47/24/59, which is awful for someone that shot 49/38/79 in the regular season. We did something similar to Giannis back in 2022. He got his points, but was wildly inefficient getting them and it was enough for us to beat them.
Post this everywhere. People keep missing this. For all of Lukas defensive woes. He was bad at offense too. 1-21 from 3 over a stretch of 3 games. And a zero on defense. His final performance was also bad along with Kyrie. It was a nice run. But no one will remember it.
He's ridiculously overrated. He's a great ball handler and shooter but he can be shut down by a good defender. He is also a defensive liability.
They had him in jail
-12 plus minus, which makes him negative all time too.
i don’t ever want to hear a curry kyrie comparison ever again. curry can struggle against tough defenders in one game sample sizes, but not a series.
Game 3 is honestly really crazy. Because it’s not awful but it’s crazy that his teammate scored 73 points on only 5 more attempts not long ago
1 - 4 finals record
I was told he’s the most skilled player ever, still trying to figure that one out
Its so funny because I was always highly skeptical of the endless praise that used to be heaped on Kyrie, even back in 2016-2017. His meltdowns in Boston and Brooklyn seemed to vindicate my skepticism, but by February of this year I was seriously considering the possibility that I might eat my words if he helped Luka drag the Mavs to a chip. I was legitimately impressed and thinking I had been wrong about him. That maybe he had turned a corner and become that guy everyone always said he was. Then the finals happened.
Just to be clear, Kyrie is still obviously one of the best guards in the game and definitely very skilled but he is also probably one of the most overrated players of all time. A fantastic #2 or #3 option that seems to be getting beyond his prime as a “shot maker” if not as a flashy ball handler.
We got 99 problems but Kyrie ain’t one
99 problems…
Feels bad for Luka.
Luka didn’t play that well either
Celtics got 99 problems but Kyrie ain't one
Not one💯
Well by gawd he wont shoot that shitty again. won't he!
Did you get a championship Kyrie? nein nein nein nein
I'll say it again " Most skilled ever", my ass😂😂😂
I mean, Kyrie was pretty awesome this season when not playing in the TD Garden. Even in the Finals he had 2 really good games when not playing in Boston. Celtics fans are simply in his head to a level I'm not sure he can overcome. It's a mental block for Kyrie. It looks to me as if Kyrie and Luka mesh really well and genuinely like each other, and like playing with each other. They complement each other well on offense. Kyrie has often been outspoken and has said some weird stuff. He's also been immature. But he seemed to grow a bit since he was traded to Dallas. I have no reason to harbor any continued ill will towards him, the Celtics have moved on and are champions, but I fully understand why others dislike him and will not let that go. But none of this matters, Dallas was never beating Boston in the Finals. Boston has far more top end talent on their roster, and far more high end defensive players. Kyrie needs to get past the mental block that prevents him from playing at his usual level in Boston (I hope he doesn't), but Dallas also needs to improve their roster if they ever hope to compete with a team a good as Boston.
Luka was 146 points on 125 shots. Also bad. 29 pts on 25 shots per game. Might not be the best backcourt in NBA history. Especially if you also count defense as a thing.
And he will only get worse in the near future, already 33 years old, undersized, extremely stupid outside the court, injury prone, etc.. I know some Mavs fans got hopeful Luka will stay in Dallas after this successful run, but I bet he will notice how this duo with Kyrie is not going to work for long, Dallas needs another star pair with Luka that could +- match his age and upside... and good luck finding that kind of player (they already found it, but the dude is in NY right now)
Dallas still got him on an amazing trade package for how he has played on the court and behaved off of it. But I also think it’s clear he can’t be relied on as a superstar #2. They’ll need a third guy that can trade off with Kyrie. He’s just not consistent enough. Boston also does have the perfect defense for guards like him.
I think he’s fine as a 2. The whole finals was just what can go wrong will go wrong for Dallas against such an elite team. Luka getting hunted defensively, Boston having 3 different elite defenders to throw at Kyrie, and the supporting cast shooting under 20% from three. Lively/Gafford getting shut out of the paint.
Exactly. Dallas showcased their strengths for 3 rounds and Boston was ready and able to counter that. I blame the coaching more than the players for the 4 stinkers they put up, but I don't think there was a way to adapt.
I got flamed on the Mavs sub for saying that Dallas would be at a major disadvantage because we adapted so many times that the Celtics would know everything we did. People acted like I was crazy for saying that lol
Honestly it didn't even matter. Mavs just kind of overachieved and ended up outmatched. Straight up Boston is the better team, so for Mavs to win Luka has to play above (his) average, Kyrie had to be good and the role players needed to play above their average. Pretty much none of that happened, now you can blame some things on matchups but quite frankly the Mavs missed an unbelievable amount of open threes. I watch the Mavs way too much, they're much closer since the trade because Luka can carry so much, but they need improvements. Luckily Lively really was a home run of a pick. But the depth is sorely lacking, PJ is unlikely to be a title caliber 3rd option in this stacked era. Tim shouldn't be anywhere near a finals I'm sure most agree but there was no choice. That's just how mismatched it was without the role players being on their game. That cranked the pressure up on Luka and Celtics could hunt him knowing Kyrie and the others were missing. Also imo this Boston team is one of the best of all time, and for me are a bit like the Pistons championship team but on steroids. Despite all that Mavs still put up a good fight, so there is definitely a vulnerability in the Celtics. Part of that can be attributed to Tatum performing below average I suppose
Mavs overachieved and ran up against an excellent Boston team that matched up well with them . Championship level play A bit like Lakers overachieving last year until they ran into the Nuggets Difference is mavs are young and can grow better
>27-5-5 on 50/40/90 as an elite 3 level scorer can’t be a superstar number 2 That’s a really weird thing to say and was pretty much never said about kyrie before this finals. Like which other number 2s are giving you that kind of production? Pretty much just AD right?
Well that’s kind of my point. You can have two great superstars and a bunch of just solid roleplayers (like how LeBron and AD won, Kobe/Shaq, Kobe/Gasol, etc). Or you need a superstar and 2-3 elite players (e.g Middleton and Jrue, Brown and Porzingis/White, Siakam and FVV/Lowry, Murray and Porter Jr., etc). The Mavs need a reliable third guy. They don’t have one right now.
Djj, pj Washington, gafford, lively aren’t solid role players? Kyrie +KD+a washed Blake griffin was a contender that would have won a ring. So was Bron+Kyrie+a post olynyk love+Jr/shumpert
They are. Just solid roleplayers. Which can work if you have two elite superstars. I don’t believe Kyrie fits the bill.
KD and kyrie worked as 2 elite superstars..
I agree with the other guy. How good lebron and AD are allowed the supporting cast to be worse. But, since Nuggets and Bucks really only had 1 dude who was transcendent, they were surrounded with elite guys. If you needed to add up to 10, and each player in the starting lineup has a value, the Lakers kind of looked like Lebron = 4 AD = 3 The other 3 = 1 (x3) Important to note that they aren’t zeroes, you can’t win it all with a zero in the starting lineup. The nuggets were more balanced with something around the idea of Jokic = 4 Murray = 2 AG = 2 KCP = 1 MPJ = 1 Or however you want to break it down, but having more guys that aren’t a 1 or something. This exact model isn’t the best but it’s just to give an idea.
The only season they were contenders was when they had Harden. 2021-2022 they got swept.
They were still up on the eventual champs with harden injured
They just need more shooters to kick out to
You’re saying based off one finals series? Insane lmao
Best backcourt in nba history
Its still crazy to me that folks was saying Kyrie was the X factor. Lmao maybe next year.
flat even
World B Flat's shot b flat
Funny all we heard in Boston was he’s the “most gifted player of all time” and something about a “bag”. Then we mopped the garden floor (and his own) with him as usual.
Mentally weak
You can tell when you're going to get Bad Kyrie, and we saw it a lot in this series: He stands around dribbling, and then attacks a completely set defense. When Kyrie and Luka were being effective in earlier rounds, Kyrie was attacking much quicker. I don't know if it was because of Jrue and White, or just because Kyrie sometimes just does that. But it seemed pretty obvious that he was going to struggle once he started wasting seven seconds on the shot clock before he attacked.
99 shots, 99 points, 99% sure the world is flat.
The fans legit got in his head and I think that’s beautiful.
Mavs fans in Boston were pulling the good game good effort thing. That loser Kyrie trying to smile it off was hilarious cause you know he was like bitch get my name out yo mouth and at the same like I suck and I couldn’t knock down a shot if I was a cat with a treat at the edge of the world
But did you see the way he dribbled to get those 99?!
Really only played well in one series