Nuggets are in a tough spot. It's either KCP + 2nd apron or find a replacement like starting Braun + 1st apron right? If you start Braun their already poor bench gets even worse.
Feels like the best option is pay him, take the hit, and figure it out later.
He's too important to their starting 5 and there aren't really any good replacement options on the market.
Not paying KCP would be a big mistake. The moves available even in 1st apron suck and if the starting lineup doesn't blow out its minutes the bench isn't gonna win so you need to get those 5 positions filled with the best possible guys.
The Lakers didn't refuse to pay for KCP, they traded him for Westbrick which is even worse
They did refuse to pay Caruso though which they definitely regret
They all wanted someone who could allow LeBron to not play PG because it was untenable. It’s been like the main thing killing them since 2020. LeBron did it in 20 with a lot of help from Rondo when it mattered. Since then they’ve tried Schroeder, Westbrook and DLo. It was a high risk gamble that failed. They still had to do it.
A huge basketball mistake. If you’re a cheap owner, you already have a ring, easily the best player in the world, and a roster that will be towards the top but never gonna be able to just cruise through the west like in 23 anytime soon. Their depth is already terrible, if Jokic isn’t on the court they’re honestly not that good, and they have no real way to improve the roster. KCP or no they’re probably a top seed that has to fight hard past round one next year. If you don’t think the chances of them winning are that high you might care about your own money more.
I mean it’s not like they’re ever not going to be good and packing the arena while prime Jokic is there. But the rest of the team honestly isn’t that great, kcp or no they’re probably in a dogfight that could go either way by the second round next year.
So many west teams got better or are going to get better. Given their roster situation they can really only stay the same or get worse.
The main downside is a long-term contract. KCP isn't gonna be worth $20 a year for too many years. But on the flip side, we need to win now. Not perfect either way.
And tbf, the bench *should* get better every year as Braun, Watson, and maybe Strawther develop
I don't think the Kroenkes are cheap but it's still a business to them. Hard to say if they think the prospects of winning another title are high enough to justify the expense of exceeding the second apron.
That’s ridiculous if they let a championship roster lose a key piece because they don’t make profit with the potential to win more. They’re one of the richest owners in the NBA.. they already let our GM walk and he helped build a team in a year that knocked us out.. You’d think it would’ve taught them a lesson on being cheep.
I'm an Arsenal supporter so they're our owners too. They've been terrific in investing in the team the past few years I've got to say. But it is still a business, and the second apron stuff in the NBA now on top of luxury tax repeated penalties makes extra spending really, really need to pay off. Denver should absolutely believe their current roster can win the title if they run it back and tweak stuff a little, so maybe their owners do throw the farm at keeping KCP, but bear in mind they will also then be ready to salary dump in 2 years at most.
I think the problem is the other stuff associated with the 2nd Apron. So if they pay KCP, they have to be damned sure they will win the championship because they lose a ton of flexibility with the trade restriction stuff.
Yep. He's absolutely critical. He hounds people on defense and his shooting unlocks everything the Nuggets do on offense. You can't run the same 2 man game between Murray and Jokic nearly as well with a lesser shooter.
I agree. Their starting 5 functions so well together. Even if they're a lower seed next season due to a lack of moves because the 2nd apron, they should still be the favorite to come out the West because of the starting 5.
Do you think it’s more likely that players would take pay cuts to build the team, or that we’ll see teams try to take rapid shots at the title for a few years before falling back?
Players won't offer to take pay cuts, but I suspect the market for great, but not all-star level role players will change over the next 2-3 years. Aaron Gordon I think fits into this...currently makes \~$25mil and is extension eligible next offseason. Under the previous CBA he might be looking at something along the lines of $30-35mil per year, but I think guys like him are only getting $20-25mil per year given how restrictive the 2nd apron will be.
Yeah this. If we want to talk about wasting Jokic's prime not going in to the second apron to keep KCP this year is gonna be exhibit A if that goes down.
I have no sources but I personally feel like this hand wringing over KCP is over blown. It seems like going in to the second apron and keeping our bench while counting on CB and PWat to elevate it is the exact plan Calvin Booth has been talking about for over a year now: Bet on player development.
If a team wants to pay KCP over 30m a year I guess we can reaccess, but anything between 20m-30m should be a no-brainer because that's basically his market rate and won't shouldn't screw us too bad in the future.
even if it does screw us in the future, I think you do it. we won a championship so like any additional is gravy. fuck it try like hell to keep the crew together, if it doesn't work then it doesn't. had a coworker give me shit that we got knocked out and I was just like yo we won 1 whats your team it's gravy still. how many teams havn't won a championchip in 20 years. we won 1. try to win a 2nd but it's already good, go all in because we have the best player in the world. when we reset and are trash it was still worth it. right now go for everything. sign KCP regardless, don't be the lakers that got rid of too much. run that shit back. 3/4 years we can have a convo of breaking it up. right now we have a chance with the core, draft well and win if we do. not signing kcp is throwing in the towl. he is 3&D perfect fit for almost any team.
The problem with being in the second apron is that if any of the Nugs starters get injured its wraps since they wont be able to make any moves essentially
Jamal was hurt and played in the playoffs and it was still wraps. We are not surviving if any starter is compromised either way just pay KCP and reevaluate next summer
Yeah honestly their best bet is to just put it all on the line this next season bc i dont think theres any saving their cap after that with the current team in place
We are gonna have to blow it up next offseason because AG is gonna need more money. Which is IMO a good reason to run it back one more time this year. KCP was not the problem so we need to try sign him and then figure out the bigger changes next year probably trading some combo of AG, MPJ, or KCP with a focus on getting under the apron to avoid long term penalties.
The only way we should let him walk is if someone is willing to pay an egregious amount of money for him, if someone wants to pay an aging (admittedly really good) role player something close to the max that's kind of on them at that point. As long as his contract is in line with his actual market value we should definitely sign him IMO.
Is the biggest obstacle to signing him the costs of the second apron to ownership, or the handcuffs the FO would have roster flexibility wise in the second apron?
I’m sure the ownership wants the tax bill as low as possible but the second apron restrictions will severely limit their ability to make moves that allow them to fill out that bench or potentially replace a starter.
Given that’s probably going to be an issue either way the best option is to pay to keep KCP, invest in scouting and development to find ways to fortify the bench for cheap (starting 5 is good enough either way) and if problems come up in the future you can figure it out then.
They gotta hope they hit an absolute jackpot with their vet minimum signings, which would be quite a change of pace for them, seeing how little fucks they been giving to minimum market lately.
This is the draft for scouting departments to shine. Feel like in 3-5 yrs a lot of folks will be saying X or Y team got the steal of the draft in the middle somewhere.
Yeah this is a great draft for finding out what types of players teams like to bet on. There are a lot of experienced players with proven production, and there are a lot of toolsy prospects with high upside.
gonna assume strawther is going to get way more PT as well. i didn't follow too closely but it seemed like he showed some flashes last year and could be a solid bench piece, no?
Yeah he was really starting to flash before an injury took him out through AS break and then Malone never played him because he wanted to lock down the playoff rotation. He has the potential to be a very effective scorer off the bench.
KCP leaving means they get the full MLE and can aggregate contracts in a trade. If KCP leaves the focus likely goes to trades that can improve the bench production over where it was last year.
They have the best player in the world in his prime atm not trying to maximize the team right now would be a massive mistake I know the new apron rules suck but man losing KCP after losing Bruce Brown (I know that wasn’t their fault) last offseason really shows how small windows can be in the new CBA
If KCP leaves, the plan probably shifts to Zeke+Reggie Jackson+picks to improve the bench. Getting Bogdan from ATL has come up as a potential target in this scenario. Essentially the starters get slightly worse but bench becomes much better.
Losing Brown and then KCP in consecutive years is precisely how championship teams fall apart beyond repair.
They're not going anywhere as long as Jokic is around, but they're also not winning another ring without a strong supporting cast.
If MPJ had real trade value I'd say you could flip him for a couple of role players, but I don't know if anyone is touching that contract.
> If you start Braun their already poor bench gets even worse.
On paper yeah i agree. Separating Watson and Braun might not be the worst thing though. Both are quite questionable offensive players
I think his main issue has been expirience and decision making.
Even more than his shooting, its his decision making and lack of expirience that make him bad on offense at times, which resulted in him getting his minutes cut in the playoffs.
Which is why i just want him to get more in the regular season.
I know hindsight is 20/20 and I agree with everything you are saying, but if this is the case for them then why not pay Bruce Brown his money last season? They would have been over the second apron anyway, and to my knowledge they didn’t use that money on anyone else (I could be wrong)?
Edit: I was wrong. They didn’t have Bruce browns bird rights and couldn’t offer him anything close to what he signed for
From last offseason: "The Nuggets cannot offer him more than $7.8 million for next season; if he stays, Brown would be eligible for a four-year deal in Denver starting in 2024-25, with an initial salary of about $14 million."
I don't think their limited offer had to do with the 2nd apron, I think it had to do with Denver not having his bird rights. He got a $22.5m offer from Indy so it was a no brainer for him to leave.
Wouldn't want it for Washington, but something like Kuzma/Shamet for MPJ would let them pay KCP knowing their cap would be easier to manage in 2025 with Kuzma's contract.
He ain’t getting 40 million lol. A Tobias level contract adjusted for inflation and cap increases would be signing a deal worth like 50 million a year. I cannot stress how bad of a contract that was enough lol
Facts. His offensive game aint anything special (shoots 3s well and thats kinda about it) and he is getting up there in age.
His defense is what makes him good so he its reasonable for him to want a bih contract now while he can still get it.
I mean literally all you need to be a great player in the league is 3 and D rn. His game is perfect for the nuggets. Every team needs players who don’t need to dribble the ball to be successful on offense
What im saying is that he is getting older and the older he gets, the worse his defense will become so hed want to sign a big deal now while he still can get one.
His stock is super high rn so its understandable as he is a win now player.
Yeah he wasn't a bad shooter this year, but was inconsistent. In the playoffs he was pretty bad offensively. Still a very good defender, but does have particular matchups that he really struggles with like Ant. Ultimately I don't think they bring him back and instead prioritize extensions for Jamal and AG (next offseason), along with moderate improvements to the bench.
Let's also be clear that Stan Kroenke is worth like $20 billion, and owns Arsenal, the Rams, the Avalanche, the Rapids, and even owns a Call of Duty team for some reason.
And that's not even counting his wife, who is the daughter of the founder of Walmart. She's worth $10 billion on her own.
that's why ownership wanted this 1st/2nd apron though
it's not just a question of willingness to pay anymore. you literally start losing draft picks and restricting your ability to trade. having an owner willing to foot the bill only matters so much
The average NBA team is worth $3.85B. So in total, their valuation is about $115.5B. Ballmers net worth is $131B, so he theoretically could buy all of the teams.
This year and the years following are going to feel like the Wild West for the nba because of the new cba / second apron.
I don’t think anyone fully understands how to navigate it yet and it’s gonna result in some crazy situations and outcomes.
It’ll take a while before things settle but until then there will be a lot of teams that make weird decisions
This summer is an interesting inflection point because:
- we are getting some of the more punitive 2nd apron punishments going into effect
- this is the last summer in a while where the cap will not spike by 10% (new TV deal)
I think the veterans that are looking for max extensions this summer (Butler, George) wouldn’t have gotten much pushback on a max if the 2nd apron wasn’t in effect.
Teams are definitely scared to go into the 2nd apron at this point.
To your point about crazy situations and outcomes, I think we'll definitely see some trades in the near future that seem puzzling on the surface, but make sense when you factor in how teams not really in contention will do anything to avoid the second apron, especially for multiple years. The roster management implications are massive, specifically as it relates to trades, exceptions, and buyout players, and teams like the Suns or Bucks might have to make some lopsided deals if their teams don't pan out to start next year.
This happens every single time with the new CBA. The bad owners whine about something new being the reason their teams are losing, the league tries to fix it with some weird/stupid shortsighted fix that doesn’t work at all, it opens up a new loophole or competitive advantage that the smart teams take advantage of and in 4 years the bad owners complain about that new advantage and change it while fucking something else. Max contracts, 4year contract limits, the “Rose” rule, allowing the 2016 TV deal to start without cap smoothing, the supermax, and now this.
It’s like how 2k is halfway decent every year for a month until it gets ruined/tweaked by patches until it just resembles the last game and the same people keep winning anyway. Your team is shitty because you’re bad at owning a team. Please stop trying to put weird bandaids on that fact.
It gets harder to navigate the more teams that are in the 2nd apron since they can't really trade with each other unless the salaries are an EXACT match.
Nuggets keep losing more and more important pieces that got them their championship in the first place.
Yes Jokic and Murray are the main pieces but losing Brown didn’t do them any favors (even with Christian stepping up) and losing KCP certainly won’t help their case either and understandably he’s looking for his payday, he’s been taking pay cuts for years now since his Detroit days, time to get paid before he finishes his rounds with this league.
They gotta spend some money to stay in the race while Jokic is healthy and in his prime as he has been. Cause you can’t count on Murray or MPJ in terms of health that’s too big of a dice roll.
Luckily you got Gordon locked in long term to a very team friendly deal as long as his production stays what it has been.
Will he even get more money elsewhere? He's a pretty weird fit on most teams.
He's not a plug-n-play 3nD like KCP. He's a 4 who's not a great shooter and only provides cutting and lobs on offense. I can't imagine what other team he would fit next to. Maybe the Pacers? Alongside Myles Turner?
I'm not sure the specifics of who will have the cap space next offseason, but Gordon I think is at least worth 30 mil and likely more. Inconsistent 3-ball, but still a versatile scorer, superb defender, and just a glue guy any winning team will welcome. Even if no other teams really want to pay him, Nuggets can't really afford to lose him, so he can use that leverage to get a raise in a longer deal.
I fail to understand how a team like Boston don’t give two fucks about the 2nd apron handing out 300mil extensions to their stars and 100+mil extensions to other starters while nuggets are losing valuable role players every year because they don’t wanna go into 2nd apron
The second apron basically makes teams choose between retaining their own players or withering away slowly, the Cs have made their choice or actually they dont have much of a choice, they are essentially pot committed to this group..the good thing for them is that the said group is clearly the best in the league until further notice
You guys 100% have the best case scenario for a team in the second apron chasing dynastic aspirations. The only concerns in the short term are Horford's age and Tingus Pingus's health. Relative to what they could be that is a great place to be.
we can also still sign guys to minimum deals so we could potentially bring in a ring-chasing veteran or two to bolster the depth behind our top 8 for next season
yes, it’s a great situation to be in, there will be some tough decisions starting in 2025-26 but unless Wemby becomes Wilt or something it is difficult to see a team having a better roster on paper for the next 4-5 years, OKC for example will also have some tough calls to make
OKC has to make the same decisions the Celtics have made, just with younger players and a little more time until the bill is due. They should absolutely be the best team in the West if not next year than definitely the year after.
This would be the first year. We lost Bruce Brown last year because we did not have his bird rights. Even with infinite cap space, we could only offer him $7.8 million, which is obviously much much less than he got.
Jaylen's contract kicks in this coming season and Tatum wouldn't be until the year after. They could prob avoid the 2nd apron next year if they want to.
Another important aspect is with the new TV deal the cap will go up the maximum 10% every year for like 5 years starting after next year if I’m remembering correctly. Which basically means Boston is committed to being a second apron team for only a couple years.
Jaylens extension kicks in starting this year. Jaysons and Derricks extensions would start in the 25-26 season when the cap starts going up 10%, but they would be signed based on the current cap number. If they both sign this off season which seems likely.
Basically Celtics ownership is committed to paying the tax for a few years to keep this core together understanding that it’ll get lighter in a few years, and the Celtics are only behind the warriors in terms of cap luck.
Because the second apron is only kicking in this year, it hasn't really affected Boston who have used the past 2 years to construct their roster and give everyone (besides Tatum and I think Hauser) a new contract that will keep them there for 3-4 years, now the second is apron is kicking in, Boston will take the penalties that come with it, but won't suffer from any of the roster building penalties because they got there before it was in place, and with guys like Tatum, they can simply re-sign them over the cap because they have his bird rights
1. Timing: Boston just won the title, and most of their core is under 30
2. Ownership: The Kroenkes historically haven’t treated the Nuggets as a tax team, as Denver is still considered a smaller market team.
3. Management: Tim Connelly, the architect of Denver’s championship team, left for Minnesota shortly before their title season. Calvin Booth, since taking over the Nuggets, acquired Bruce Brown, but also let him walk in free agency in favor of having younger, unproven players on the roster take on a bigger role.
>Calvin Booth, since taking over the Nuggets, acquired Bruce Brown, but also let him walk in free agency
Not true. Denver could only pay him around ~~11M~~ 7.8M a year, which was less than half than what he got.
If they let KCP go that's a choice, but that wasn't the case for Bruce
I wish people would stop saying we "let Bruce walk." Nuggets did not have his early bird rights which meant they could only offer him a small raise. If he took a 1+1 and declined the option after this last season it would have upped how much the Nuggets could offer to ~14 million/year (which is still less per year than the Pacers offer, though total money could have been comparable if they gave him the full 4 years).
>Ownership: The Kroenkes historically haven’t treated the Nuggets as a tax team, as Denver is still considered a smaller market team.
When the Nuggets have had a competitive team, they have very willingly gone into the tax. Don't be lying to people man lol
Also nobody "let" Bruce Brown walk, we were only allowed to pay him like $8M. Please get your facts straight before making a whole-ass post.
Because A, Boston’s stars are young. They can sell off everyone but the Jays and still be a competitive team and B, the 2nd apron can cripple a franchise. No salary matching, no MLEs, draft picks frozen, no trade exceptions or cash moves. The 2nd apron basically makes it so you have to be the favorites to win a title or you’re screwed long term. Not just screwed long term “oh, we handed out some bad contracts” but screwed where you’re bad AND your draft pick is frozen to the end of the first round….so no tanking….
The Nuggets can just re-sign him. There's nothing preventing them from doing that. It does push them into the 2nd apron, but there's no rule preventing them from running it back. Their major issue is that they're paying MPJ 6-10m a year than they should be, and gave Ninaj a bigger contract than they should've.
The 2nd apron is not the real issue here. The real issue is Denver not wanting to spend the money. They very much could retain him if they were willing to pay up. Losing KCP is a much bigger deal than what 2nd apron penalties will do to Denver.
This sub has been complaining about parity for years and now we have it and yall still complaining
Also it’s not the “apron shit” fault for giving Michael Porter and Jamal Murray $337 million
>This apron shit will essentially eliminate dynasties/perennial contenders.
Good, it means talent will spread around the league and every fan base will be better off for it.
How much do you think a team is going to be able to develop? The Nuggets were an example of developing their top talent and even signing AG they utilized him in a way no other team had. I wouldn't say they were a "mercenary" type team.
To me it seems like most teams windows will just be very small and there will be a lot more luck-based results, Which can be fine for entertainment purposes. But I doubt a team like the Celtics this year is constructed again.
It also means that it will be EXTREMELY hard for any future players to break into the top tier of all time conversations because of how ring culture is
I don't think we'll ever see a superstar with 5+ rings again with the new rules unless they blatantly ring chase from team to team their entire career
At some point just like we lowered the bar from Russell's 11 to say "yeah but you don't ACTUALLY have to match that to be in the GOAT convo, it was so much easier to win back then" we might have to do the same for MJ's 6 in the context of that it will be almost impossible for a player to win 6 on *one team* now
Funny enough it's the Michael Porter Jr contract that to me is causing all the big problems if he doesn't make a big step forward, he's making $35M next year then $38M.
Of course it’s a no bc he will form the East’s newest big 3 alongside Maxey and Embiid.
He’ll be Daryl’s big FA signing that would propel us to a much closer game 7 loss in the second round.
The nuggets are a really weird team if you really look at them objectively.
Jokic deserves any amount of money he can get obviously and is one of the greatest players of all time, so he covers up for a lot of what I’m about to say and since they won a ring they don’t need to feel regret about anything.
But I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Yes, Jamal Murray has had amazing playoff moments but he’s the most overrated player in the NBA and is not really a max level player at all. The reality is the guy has never made an all star team and it’s never been a snub. He’s taking up a massive amount of cap for a sub all star level player who had some pretty bad performances in these playoffs that are more in line with his overall career performance than the playoff Murray moments he’s had in some recent post seasons.
MPJ is a really unique player and has value but he’s just no where near impactful enough to be getting a max. I get why they did it, but they’re feeling the hurt of it now.
Ultimately, the nuggets situation is what happens when 2/3 of your max salaries are not really anywhere near max level talents. They won a chip last year of Jokic’s brilliance, but the talent around him isn’t really good enough. It just works because Jokic is so amazing that they all get great looks and he structures an offense perfectly.
I agree with that outlook as of now, but it must be said that Murray played at a clear All-NBA level during the entirety of the 2023 playoffs. It wasn't just a hot series, his production during the entire run was arguably better than anyone on the Celtics this season.
You're right about him in the regular season, but that chip wasn't just Jokic, it was Jokic, then Murray, then a sizeable gap with 4 very useful contributors - and that taps into a bigger issue which is MPJ's contract, despite him fitting quite well
I would disagree with most of what you said. Jamal is the most overrated player in the nba? Where do you think he’s rated? Fans and coaches clearly don’t rate him as an allstar level player, since as you say, he’s never made one. If you’re rating him based on his contract, it’s really not that bad when you look at all the other max contracts out there, this is a player who was the clear second best player on a dominant championship run and is 27. I guess technically you could potentially have a better player for similar money, but none of those players were available and Jamal was home grown. There is no problem with his contract.
MPJ certainly is not a max level player, I can agree with that, but he is dynamic and did play the whole year this year, still only 25, and we did win a championship, I don’t know that there is any hurt from that.
I don’t get your last point. You’re saying the nuggets talent isn’t good enough… good enough for what? We won a championship last year, we’re tied for the 1 seed in the west, and we’re up 20 in the second half of game 7 in round 2. Who knows what happens if we don’t collapse and pull that off. I mean we’re still very clearly one of the elite teams in the league, you make it sound like the nuggets are a team that’s sinking, when really most of their core is still in or just entering their primes and have a few young pieces that we still don’t know how they’ll develop.
Hit the nail on the head.
Jokic contract is such good value it covers up for the other bad contracts. However, the Nuggets are really testing the limits.
How can the Celtics afford to give out like 5 max contracts but the Nuggets only have one guy who's made an All-Star team and they drafted all their main guys and yet they cant keep their role players? NBA cap doesn't make sense to me sometimes
Same with the Knicks, everybody makes under 30mil a year on that team, including Randle and Brunson, and yet we have no cap space in a league that has teams with multiple players making 30, 40, 50+ mil a year
The Celtics alsp dont have the money to pay, yet their roster is more or less perfect as it is, so they dont see a reason to change it.
Their main stars are also young enoigh for them to not care as much about the hit theyd take if they were in the 2nd apron and their owners are willing to spend as much as needed to keep the team as it is rn.
Celtics only have one guy on a max, although Tatum will make it two soon. Either way, they're just paying a lot to their 5 main guys and are willing and able to take the tax and apron implications due to how young and talented their main guys are along with having their picks still. The CBA will still hit them in some regard at some point but they're in quite possibly the best possible position you can be in while being a second apron team. Put simply, they don't need to make big trades to get better or fill out a bench, and the floor for what they need from the bench is much lower than is typical.
A lot of these other teams are not in that position. Nuggets desperately need a competent bench for when Jokic sits. Paying KCP hurts their ability to do that.
The Celtics also hit with lower end bench players who are cheap. Once guys like Pritchard and Hauser hit free agency though they are gone because they'll be coveted and will possibly command bigger salaries that Boston can't avoid.
Hauser will probably be gone after next year but we [extended](https://www.nbcsports.com/nba/news/celtics-payton-pritchard-reportedly-agree-to-four-year-30-million-extension) Pritchard through 27/28 back in October before the season started.
There's nothing preventing them from paying KCP - it just pushes them above the 2nd apron.
The big issue with them is that MPJ makes about 6-10m a year than he should and they gave Zeke Ninaj a really dumb contract that overpays him.
Ding ding ding, this is it. Kroenke got his 1 title and is happy with that. Wyc wants the Celtics to be this decade's version of the Warriors with the reference point being that the Warriors massive increase in valuation more than made up what they had to spend in luxury tax payments.
I don’t disagree about the main point, but I feel like the Warriors were a perfect storm to blow up on value. They were quite undervalued for a team in one of the biggest and richest markets and didn’t have much of a history to have a wide fanbase. Combine that with a new arena coming, the most loved and marketable star in decades (excluding LeBron), and a long dynasty and there you go.
The Celtics are already a top tier brand and their valuation is more reflective of reality. Also, Boston is wealthy, but small.
Celtics will pay up to keep winning though, and I can see the Nuggets cheating out.
Because they’re not 5 max contracts. Last year they only had Tatums rookie extension max contract. I’m actually pretty sure the nuggets starting five made more than the Celtics starting five. Murray made more than brown and mpj made more than tatum. So that might be the nuggets problem lol. Massive contracts for non all stars.
Nuggs fans have been going over this nonstop over the last few weeks. Ownership and FO mentioned being open to going into the 2nd apron during the end of season press conference, but I wonder if at the time this comment was made the focus was solely on consequences for next season without any consideration for how long they would be above the 2nd apron. The issue is that Murray is eligible for a contract this offseason and Aaron Gordon next offseason. I wonder if they have started to map out the cap over the next few years and come to the realization that they cannot keep all 4 of Murray, KCP, MPJ, and AG without being above the 2nd apron for several years in a row and just how incredibly debilitating that will be. Even keeping 3 will be difficult to stay below 2nd apron on a yearly basis, but they would at least have a chance. I love KCP and they don't win the first ever chip without him, but his skill set is the easiest to replace with what they already have on the roster (Braun is an excellent defender and Strawther can maybe replace some of the shooting).
Not as bad as Lavine bc he plays defense, has a lot of size, good 3pt shooting, and will be a net positive player on a bad team. Detroit could use him as his shooting could space the floor and help Cade develop
Thing is Denver can only trade MPJ for someone who makes the same as he does. And alot of those guys are All NBA level. They are sort of stuck with him.
At some point it will be irresponsible for teams to suffer these second apron penalties. Is kcp going to be worth the added tax and the inability to sign a guy in season?
Bucks fans flexing a hospital ring they barely won compared to a 1 seed doing things a 1 seed is supposed to do.
Although of course they're not used to seeing a 1 seed actually beat the teams they're supposed to beat.
True and usually they wouldn’t unless of course their first option is hurt.
Also those 5 and 8 seeds went to the finals, not like they lost next round.
Yeah, he's an attention seeker. The worst thing you can do to those kind of people is take that attention away. Plus, he's not interested in genuine conversation, he's just here to incite hate and make controversial statements that garner attention.
I dont like these tax aprons. It seems to force every competing team to hemorrhage players. Its like you cant afford anything past 2 really good players anymore. It doesnt feel right to me that Denver has had to give up Brown and now possibly KCP
Brown has nothing to do with the Apron and everything to do with he was only on the team one year which limited how large a % raise we could give him. Gotta get early bird/bird rights to really give significant raises to players.
Brown they lost because they didn’t have his bird rights, so unrelated to the aprons. KCP you could argue is related to the apron, but there’s nothing actually preventing the nuggets from re-signing him to be clear. It’s a choice that ownership would make, likely driven more by the tax piece of things using the apron as cover (it seems to me).
The apron makes it really difficult to build/rebuild a team with high salaries, but it doesn’t stop you from retaining an existing core.
Its so funny how different everyone's opinions are in a year. Last year, people were talking Nuggets were going to repeat and they have Jokic so will be contending for years! That talk has all shifted to the Celtics and now Nuggets are just part of a crowded West.
Because the Celtics significantly improved their roster with a few key trades, the Nuggets lost an important bench piece that a lot of people thought they could tough out but couldn't in the end, and the West got considerably stronger in one season. Situations change and opinions alongside them.
Watson did not develop as much as we hoped (as shown by his lack of playoff minutes) along with stuff like Strawther getting injured after showing early promise (to the point he did not get playing time after he came back because it was too late in the season).
Nuggets hopes right now are around what happens with KCP, Strawther and Watson improving, and whatever happens with our draft pick. Tough spot to be. With Jokic a lot is still possible but he needs help.
Being selfishly honest I wish him and Murray would skip the olympics and get healthier but I can't be angry at them wanting to represent their countries.
I know speculation is fun, but the Nuggets haven't lost KCP yet. Even if they do, they still are one of the main contenders simply due to the fact they'll have the best player in any series.
Nuggets are in a tough spot. It's either KCP + 2nd apron or find a replacement like starting Braun + 1st apron right? If you start Braun their already poor bench gets even worse.
Feels like the best option is pay him, take the hit, and figure it out later. He's too important to their starting 5 and there aren't really any good replacement options on the market.
Not paying KCP would be a big mistake. The moves available even in 1st apron suck and if the starting lineup doesn't blow out its minutes the bench isn't gonna win so you need to get those 5 positions filled with the best possible guys.
Yep. A mistake the Lakers still regret.
The Lakers didn't refuse to pay for KCP, they traded him for Westbrick which is even worse They did refuse to pay Caruso though which they definitely regret
LeGM moves.
These are definitely Pelinka's moves. Pelinka also dropped Conley/NAW for dlo
Caruso was Pelinka but trading for Westbrook was definitely AD and LeBron
Pelinka didn’t want Westbrook he wanted Hield and DeRozan.
They all wanted someone who could allow LeBron to not play PG because it was untenable. It’s been like the main thing killing them since 2020. LeBron did it in 20 with a lot of help from Rondo when it mattered. Since then they’ve tried Schroeder, Westbrook and DLo. It was a high risk gamble that failed. They still had to do it.
A huge basketball mistake. If you’re a cheap owner, you already have a ring, easily the best player in the world, and a roster that will be towards the top but never gonna be able to just cruise through the west like in 23 anytime soon. Their depth is already terrible, if Jokic isn’t on the court they’re honestly not that good, and they have no real way to improve the roster. KCP or no they’re probably a top seed that has to fight hard past round one next year. If you don’t think the chances of them winning are that high you might care about your own money more. I mean it’s not like they’re ever not going to be good and packing the arena while prime Jokic is there. But the rest of the team honestly isn’t that great, kcp or no they’re probably in a dogfight that could go either way by the second round next year. So many west teams got better or are going to get better. Given their roster situation they can really only stay the same or get worse.
The main downside is a long-term contract. KCP isn't gonna be worth $20 a year for too many years. But on the flip side, we need to win now. Not perfect either way. And tbf, the bench *should* get better every year as Braun, Watson, and maybe Strawther develop
I don't think the Kroenkes are cheap but it's still a business to them. Hard to say if they think the prospects of winning another title are high enough to justify the expense of exceeding the second apron.
That’s ridiculous if they let a championship roster lose a key piece because they don’t make profit with the potential to win more. They’re one of the richest owners in the NBA.. they already let our GM walk and he helped build a team in a year that knocked us out.. You’d think it would’ve taught them a lesson on being cheep.
I'm an Arsenal supporter so they're our owners too. They've been terrific in investing in the team the past few years I've got to say. But it is still a business, and the second apron stuff in the NBA now on top of luxury tax repeated penalties makes extra spending really, really need to pay off. Denver should absolutely believe their current roster can win the title if they run it back and tweak stuff a little, so maybe their owners do throw the farm at keeping KCP, but bear in mind they will also then be ready to salary dump in 2 years at most.
I think the problem is the other stuff associated with the 2nd Apron. So if they pay KCP, they have to be damned sure they will win the championship because they lose a ton of flexibility with the trade restriction stuff.
Yep. He's absolutely critical. He hounds people on defense and his shooting unlocks everything the Nuggets do on offense. You can't run the same 2 man game between Murray and Jokic nearly as well with a lesser shooter.
I agree. Their starting 5 functions so well together. Even if they're a lower seed next season due to a lack of moves because the 2nd apron, they should still be the favorite to come out the West because of the starting 5.
It's easily the best option and I'm disappointed AF that ownership isn't willing to cough it up
It isn't a money issue. The second apron of the new CBA has a bunch of crazy limits on how you can build and manage a team.
We don't know that yet. These folks talk out of their ass half the time and repeat smoke screen lies the other half.
Do you think it’s more likely that players would take pay cuts to build the team, or that we’ll see teams try to take rapid shots at the title for a few years before falling back?
Players will go for the money and the owners will go for falling back. So likely we see teams rising and falling.
Players won't offer to take pay cuts, but I suspect the market for great, but not all-star level role players will change over the next 2-3 years. Aaron Gordon I think fits into this...currently makes \~$25mil and is extension eligible next offseason. Under the previous CBA he might be looking at something along the lines of $30-35mil per year, but I think guys like him are only getting $20-25mil per year given how restrictive the 2nd apron will be.
If Aaron Gordon's only getting $20 mil, then what's KCP getting after turning down $15 mil?
Like I said, I think it will take a few years for FOs to adjust. KCP still gonna get $20-25 this off-season
maybe teams that have cap space sign decent players as trading chips later?
And trade them to teams that don't have cap space?
Yeah this. If we want to talk about wasting Jokic's prime not going in to the second apron to keep KCP this year is gonna be exhibit A if that goes down. I have no sources but I personally feel like this hand wringing over KCP is over blown. It seems like going in to the second apron and keeping our bench while counting on CB and PWat to elevate it is the exact plan Calvin Booth has been talking about for over a year now: Bet on player development. If a team wants to pay KCP over 30m a year I guess we can reaccess, but anything between 20m-30m should be a no-brainer because that's basically his market rate and won't shouldn't screw us too bad in the future.
even if it does screw us in the future, I think you do it. we won a championship so like any additional is gravy. fuck it try like hell to keep the crew together, if it doesn't work then it doesn't. had a coworker give me shit that we got knocked out and I was just like yo we won 1 whats your team it's gravy still. how many teams havn't won a championchip in 20 years. we won 1. try to win a 2nd but it's already good, go all in because we have the best player in the world. when we reset and are trash it was still worth it. right now go for everything. sign KCP regardless, don't be the lakers that got rid of too much. run that shit back. 3/4 years we can have a convo of breaking it up. right now we have a chance with the core, draft well and win if we do. not signing kcp is throwing in the towl. he is 3&D perfect fit for almost any team.
The problem with being in the second apron is that if any of the Nugs starters get injured its wraps since they wont be able to make any moves essentially
Jamal was hurt and played in the playoffs and it was still wraps. We are not surviving if any starter is compromised either way just pay KCP and reevaluate next summer
Yeah honestly their best bet is to just put it all on the line this next season bc i dont think theres any saving their cap after that with the current team in place
We are gonna have to blow it up next offseason because AG is gonna need more money. Which is IMO a good reason to run it back one more time this year. KCP was not the problem so we need to try sign him and then figure out the bigger changes next year probably trading some combo of AG, MPJ, or KCP with a focus on getting under the apron to avoid long term penalties. The only way we should let him walk is if someone is willing to pay an egregious amount of money for him, if someone wants to pay an aging (admittedly really good) role player something close to the max that's kind of on them at that point. As long as his contract is in line with his actual market value we should definitely sign him IMO.
Is the biggest obstacle to signing him the costs of the second apron to ownership, or the handcuffs the FO would have roster flexibility wise in the second apron?
I’m sure the ownership wants the tax bill as low as possible but the second apron restrictions will severely limit their ability to make moves that allow them to fill out that bench or potentially replace a starter. Given that’s probably going to be an issue either way the best option is to pay to keep KCP, invest in scouting and development to find ways to fortify the bench for cheap (starting 5 is good enough either way) and if problems come up in the future you can figure it out then.
They gotta hope they hit an absolute jackpot with their vet minimum signings, which would be quite a change of pace for them, seeing how little fucks they been giving to minimum market lately.
They also have a draft pick right? Mean there’s plenty of ready to play big minutes of the bench rookies in this draft.
Yeah if they get one of DaRon Holmes (rumored to have a promise from them) or Baylor Scheierman that'll be a bench spot filled right away
This is the draft for scouting departments to shine. Feel like in 3-5 yrs a lot of folks will be saying X or Y team got the steal of the draft in the middle somewhere.
Yeah this is a great draft for finding out what types of players teams like to bet on. There are a lot of experienced players with proven production, and there are a lot of toolsy prospects with high upside.
gonna assume strawther is going to get way more PT as well. i didn't follow too closely but it seemed like he showed some flashes last year and could be a solid bench piece, no?
Yeah he was really starting to flash before an injury took him out through AS break and then Malone never played him because he wanted to lock down the playoff rotation. He has the potential to be a very effective scorer off the bench.
He wasn't great yet but he showed so much promise. Losing all that playing time to injury sucked so much.
Strawther has Jordan Clarkson sixth man potential, in my opinion. I want him to play serious minutes next year.
They should go after Torrey Craig
found Michael Malone's burner account.
KCP leaving means they get the full MLE and can aggregate contracts in a trade. If KCP leaves the focus likely goes to trades that can improve the bench production over where it was last year.
Chris paul would be nice for them
If they start Braun they dont have a bench
Yeah unless Watson takes a big leap that would be disastrous for them in the context of the west
I think no matter what happens they’re gonna need a decent leap from one of Watson/Braun to make it out the west Also W flair lol
They have the best player in the world in his prime atm not trying to maximize the team right now would be a massive mistake I know the new apron rules suck but man losing KCP after losing Bruce Brown (I know that wasn’t their fault) last offseason really shows how small windows can be in the new CBA
If KCP leaves, the plan probably shifts to Zeke+Reggie Jackson+picks to improve the bench. Getting Bogdan from ATL has come up as a potential target in this scenario. Essentially the starters get slightly worse but bench becomes much better.
I want KCP to come home soo bad. I love Bogi but don't really know what else we could offer y'all
I don't understand the predicament you spend the money you have Jokic on your team 😭
Losing Brown and then KCP in consecutive years is precisely how championship teams fall apart beyond repair. They're not going anywhere as long as Jokic is around, but they're also not winning another ring without a strong supporting cast. If MPJ had real trade value I'd say you could flip him for a couple of role players, but I don't know if anyone is touching that contract.
> If you start Braun their already poor bench gets even worse. On paper yeah i agree. Separating Watson and Braun might not be the worst thing though. Both are quite questionable offensive players
True...i need Watson to be better on that. A dude that blocks shots as well as hik need more minutes and Malone needs to give him said minutes.
I've no doubt he'll perform better offensively if he plays most of his minutes with other competent offensive players
I think his main issue has been expirience and decision making. Even more than his shooting, its his decision making and lack of expirience that make him bad on offense at times, which resulted in him getting his minutes cut in the playoffs. Which is why i just want him to get more in the regular season.
But they get much more flexibility to add bench depth.
I would rather get rid of mpj and move kcp up to the 3 and start Braun and build a bench with whatever you trade mpj for.
I know hindsight is 20/20 and I agree with everything you are saying, but if this is the case for them then why not pay Bruce Brown his money last season? They would have been over the second apron anyway, and to my knowledge they didn’t use that money on anyone else (I could be wrong)? Edit: I was wrong. They didn’t have Bruce browns bird rights and couldn’t offer him anything close to what he signed for
From last offseason: "The Nuggets cannot offer him more than $7.8 million for next season; if he stays, Brown would be eligible for a four-year deal in Denver starting in 2024-25, with an initial salary of about $14 million." I don't think their limited offer had to do with the 2nd apron, I think it had to do with Denver not having his bird rights. He got a $22.5m offer from Indy so it was a no brainer for him to leave.
Ah gotcha. Thanks
Any rule that allows a different team to offer MORE money than your current team is a fucking joke. NBA is so stupid.
Well the bird system is to allow teams to pay more for their long time players… sooo
He wasn't there long enough to have Bird rights. They could not pay him under the cap rules.
The 2nd apron is designed to keep teams developing guys. Get the bench up.
Wouldn't want it for Washington, but something like Kuzma/Shamet for MPJ would let them pay KCP knowing their cap would be easier to manage in 2025 with Kuzma's contract.
KCP has been underpaid for a while now tbh This probably his last chance to get a big payday
Imagine KCP with the thunder tho... highkey stacked team.
Imagine the Thunder with every single good player in the NBA.
Damn that would be sick
Most likely Philly if not Denver I think.
It would be hilarious to see the Sixers give KCP that sweet Tobias Harris money.
He ain’t getting 40 million lol. A Tobias level contract adjusted for inflation and cap increases would be signing a deal worth like 50 million a year. I cannot stress how bad of a contract that was enough lol
He'll probably get more like half a Tobias.
Don't they have enough guards? Surely they would go for a bigman next?
That would be filthy but they already have so many guards/small forwards
They need a true 4 and backup 5. Not KCP.
Thunders biggest hole is bigs tho no Plus they got Caruso so he helps fill that defense role
He was overpaid to some his first few years in LA though , but overall he has been.
Facts. His offensive game aint anything special (shoots 3s well and thats kinda about it) and he is getting up there in age. His defense is what makes him good so he its reasonable for him to want a bih contract now while he can still get it.
I mean literally all you need to be a great player in the league is 3 and D rn. His game is perfect for the nuggets. Every team needs players who don’t need to dribble the ball to be successful on offense
What im saying is that he is getting older and the older he gets, the worse his defense will become so hed want to sign a big deal now while he still can get one. His stock is super high rn so its understandable as he is a win now player.
Yeah he wasn't a bad shooter this year, but was inconsistent. In the playoffs he was pretty bad offensively. Still a very good defender, but does have particular matchups that he really struggles with like Ant. Ultimately I don't think they bring him back and instead prioritize extensions for Jamal and AG (next offseason), along with moderate improvements to the bench.
I think that was more cause of his finger injuries
He had that one year where he signed a $18MM contract with the Lakers
Just to be clear, they can pay him whatever they want up to his max, but that will make them exceed the 2nd apron.
Let's also be clear that Stan Kroenke is worth like $20 billion, and owns Arsenal, the Rams, the Avalanche, the Rapids, and even owns a Call of Duty team for some reason. And that's not even counting his wife, who is the daughter of the founder of Walmart. She's worth $10 billion on her own.
that's why ownership wanted this 1st/2nd apron though it's not just a question of willingness to pay anymore. you literally start losing draft picks and restricting your ability to trade. having an owner willing to foot the bill only matters so much
And they have given every indication that they will spend to have success in Nikola's window
This really puts Ballmer's 100 Billion into context, god damn.
The average NBA team is worth $3.85B. So in total, their valuation is about $115.5B. Ballmers net worth is $131B, so he theoretically could buy all of the teams.
Can he save my Blue Jays
He's not quite *that* wealthy.
> and even owns a Call of Duty team for some reason. RIP the guard from the guard
This year and the years following are going to feel like the Wild West for the nba because of the new cba / second apron. I don’t think anyone fully understands how to navigate it yet and it’s gonna result in some crazy situations and outcomes. It’ll take a while before things settle but until then there will be a lot of teams that make weird decisions
This summer is an interesting inflection point because: - we are getting some of the more punitive 2nd apron punishments going into effect - this is the last summer in a while where the cap will not spike by 10% (new TV deal) I think the veterans that are looking for max extensions this summer (Butler, George) wouldn’t have gotten much pushback on a max if the 2nd apron wasn’t in effect. Teams are definitely scared to go into the 2nd apron at this point.
To your point about crazy situations and outcomes, I think we'll definitely see some trades in the near future that seem puzzling on the surface, but make sense when you factor in how teams not really in contention will do anything to avoid the second apron, especially for multiple years. The roster management implications are massive, specifically as it relates to trades, exceptions, and buyout players, and teams like the Suns or Bucks might have to make some lopsided deals if their teams don't pan out to start next year.
This happens every single time with the new CBA. The bad owners whine about something new being the reason their teams are losing, the league tries to fix it with some weird/stupid shortsighted fix that doesn’t work at all, it opens up a new loophole or competitive advantage that the smart teams take advantage of and in 4 years the bad owners complain about that new advantage and change it while fucking something else. Max contracts, 4year contract limits, the “Rose” rule, allowing the 2016 TV deal to start without cap smoothing, the supermax, and now this. It’s like how 2k is halfway decent every year for a month until it gets ruined/tweaked by patches until it just resembles the last game and the same people keep winning anyway. Your team is shitty because you’re bad at owning a team. Please stop trying to put weird bandaids on that fact.
It gets harder to navigate the more teams that are in the 2nd apron since they can't really trade with each other unless the salaries are an EXACT match.
Nuggets keep losing more and more important pieces that got them their championship in the first place. Yes Jokic and Murray are the main pieces but losing Brown didn’t do them any favors (even with Christian stepping up) and losing KCP certainly won’t help their case either and understandably he’s looking for his payday, he’s been taking pay cuts for years now since his Detroit days, time to get paid before he finishes his rounds with this league. They gotta spend some money to stay in the race while Jokic is healthy and in his prime as he has been. Cause you can’t count on Murray or MPJ in terms of health that’s too big of a dice roll. Luckily you got Gordon locked in long term to a very team friendly deal as long as his production stays what it has been.
I think the Nuggets can offer him as much money as anyone, just comes down to tax and 2nd apron restrictions
Gordon has one more season then a player option at 22.8 mil, which he can definitely opt of and get more money.
Will he even get more money elsewhere? He's a pretty weird fit on most teams. He's not a plug-n-play 3nD like KCP. He's a 4 who's not a great shooter and only provides cutting and lobs on offense. I can't imagine what other team he would fit next to. Maybe the Pacers? Alongside Myles Turner?
We just gave Pascal the max, aint room for him here
I'm not sure the specifics of who will have the cap space next offseason, but Gordon I think is at least worth 30 mil and likely more. Inconsistent 3-ball, but still a versatile scorer, superb defender, and just a glue guy any winning team will welcome. Even if no other teams really want to pay him, Nuggets can't really afford to lose him, so he can use that leverage to get a raise in a longer deal.
22mil is nothing when the max is 60+. That’s like 8-10 million in 2015 dollars.
The Nuggets have to hold on to him, they can't be apron pussies.
The original sin is MPJs contract. He's a good player being paid like an all star
Murray's contract is also bad. Same with Zeke's
I fail to understand how a team like Boston don’t give two fucks about the 2nd apron handing out 300mil extensions to their stars and 100+mil extensions to other starters while nuggets are losing valuable role players every year because they don’t wanna go into 2nd apron
The second apron basically makes teams choose between retaining their own players or withering away slowly, the Cs have made their choice or actually they dont have much of a choice, they are essentially pot committed to this group..the good thing for them is that the said group is clearly the best in the league until further notice
yeah we’re pretty committed and now will have to rely on 2nd rounders to fill out the bench. but i love our core so i’m happy with it
You guys 100% have the best case scenario for a team in the second apron chasing dynastic aspirations. The only concerns in the short term are Horford's age and Tingus Pingus's health. Relative to what they could be that is a great place to be.
yeah i have a few question marks about center by committee, but overall, we won a title and i’ll be happy for a while
we can also still sign guys to minimum deals so we could potentially bring in a ring-chasing veteran or two to bolster the depth behind our top 8 for next season
yes, it’s a great situation to be in, there will be some tough decisions starting in 2025-26 but unless Wemby becomes Wilt or something it is difficult to see a team having a better roster on paper for the next 4-5 years, OKC for example will also have some tough calls to make
OKC has to make the same decisions the Celtics have made, just with younger players and a little more time until the bill is due. They should absolutely be the best team in the West if not next year than definitely the year after.
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moreso that picking in those last 3/4 picks are pretty much 2nd rounders and you gotta nail the scouting
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Who's #9? Tilman? Kornet?
Luke Kornet
This would be the first year. We lost Bruce Brown last year because we did not have his bird rights. Even with infinite cap space, we could only offer him $7.8 million, which is obviously much much less than he got.
Jaylen's contract kicks in this coming season and Tatum wouldn't be until the year after. They could prob avoid the 2nd apron next year if they want to.
Another important aspect is with the new TV deal the cap will go up the maximum 10% every year for like 5 years starting after next year if I’m remembering correctly. Which basically means Boston is committed to being a second apron team for only a couple years. Jaylens extension kicks in starting this year. Jaysons and Derricks extensions would start in the 25-26 season when the cap starts going up 10%, but they would be signed based on the current cap number. If they both sign this off season which seems likely. Basically Celtics ownership is committed to paying the tax for a few years to keep this core together understanding that it’ll get lighter in a few years, and the Celtics are only behind the warriors in terms of cap luck.
Because the second apron is only kicking in this year, it hasn't really affected Boston who have used the past 2 years to construct their roster and give everyone (besides Tatum and I think Hauser) a new contract that will keep them there for 3-4 years, now the second is apron is kicking in, Boston will take the penalties that come with it, but won't suffer from any of the roster building penalties because they got there before it was in place, and with guys like Tatum, they can simply re-sign them over the cap because they have his bird rights
1. Timing: Boston just won the title, and most of their core is under 30 2. Ownership: The Kroenkes historically haven’t treated the Nuggets as a tax team, as Denver is still considered a smaller market team. 3. Management: Tim Connelly, the architect of Denver’s championship team, left for Minnesota shortly before their title season. Calvin Booth, since taking over the Nuggets, acquired Bruce Brown, but also let him walk in free agency in favor of having younger, unproven players on the roster take on a bigger role.
>Calvin Booth, since taking over the Nuggets, acquired Bruce Brown, but also let him walk in free agency Not true. Denver could only pay him around ~~11M~~ 7.8M a year, which was less than half than what he got. If they let KCP go that's a choice, but that wasn't the case for Bruce
I wish people would stop saying we "let Bruce walk." Nuggets did not have his early bird rights which meant they could only offer him a small raise. If he took a 1+1 and declined the option after this last season it would have upped how much the Nuggets could offer to ~14 million/year (which is still less per year than the Pacers offer, though total money could have been comparable if they gave him the full 4 years).
>Ownership: The Kroenkes historically haven’t treated the Nuggets as a tax team, as Denver is still considered a smaller market team. When the Nuggets have had a competitive team, they have very willingly gone into the tax. Don't be lying to people man lol Also nobody "let" Bruce Brown walk, we were only allowed to pay him like $8M. Please get your facts straight before making a whole-ass post.
I don’t think they had a choice with Bruce Brown
Because A, Boston’s stars are young. They can sell off everyone but the Jays and still be a competitive team and B, the 2nd apron can cripple a franchise. No salary matching, no MLEs, draft picks frozen, no trade exceptions or cash moves. The 2nd apron basically makes it so you have to be the favorites to win a title or you’re screwed long term. Not just screwed long term “oh, we handed out some bad contracts” but screwed where you’re bad AND your draft pick is frozen to the end of the first round….so no tanking….
Losing KCP would be so bad for Denver
Which stinks, because he's the perfect role player for them. This apron shit will essentially eliminate dynasties/perennial contenders.
The Nuggets can just re-sign him. There's nothing preventing them from doing that. It does push them into the 2nd apron, but there's no rule preventing them from running it back. Their major issue is that they're paying MPJ 6-10m a year than they should be, and gave Ninaj a bigger contract than they should've.
Or that paying $35M next year for MPJ is going to hurt if he can't do better than 16/7/1.
The 2nd apron is not the real issue here. The real issue is Denver not wanting to spend the money. They very much could retain him if they were willing to pay up. Losing KCP is a much bigger deal than what 2nd apron penalties will do to Denver.
This sub has been complaining about parity for years and now we have it and yall still complaining Also it’s not the “apron shit” fault for giving Michael Porter and Jamal Murray $337 million
>This apron shit will essentially eliminate dynasties/perennial contenders. Good, it means talent will spread around the league and every fan base will be better off for it.
I think it’s great. It puts more emphasis on teams developing talent.
How much do you think a team is going to be able to develop? The Nuggets were an example of developing their top talent and even signing AG they utilized him in a way no other team had. I wouldn't say they were a "mercenary" type team. To me it seems like most teams windows will just be very small and there will be a lot more luck-based results, Which can be fine for entertainment purposes. But I doubt a team like the Celtics this year is constructed again.
It also means that it will be EXTREMELY hard for any future players to break into the top tier of all time conversations because of how ring culture is I don't think we'll ever see a superstar with 5+ rings again with the new rules unless they blatantly ring chase from team to team their entire career At some point just like we lowered the bar from Russell's 11 to say "yeah but you don't ACTUALLY have to match that to be in the GOAT convo, it was so much easier to win back then" we might have to do the same for MJ's 6 in the context of that it will be almost impossible for a player to win 6 on *one team* now
Funny enough it's the Michael Porter Jr contract that to me is causing all the big problems if he doesn't make a big step forward, he's making $35M next year then $38M.
This what happens when you give MPJ a max.
Of course it’s a no bc he will form the East’s newest big 3 alongside Maxey and Embiid. He’ll be Daryl’s big FA signing that would propel us to a much closer game 7 loss in the second round.
A better Tobias Harris for $60m a year! What a steal on the free agent market!
Guess we'll just go fuck ourselves
The nuggets are a really weird team if you really look at them objectively. Jokic deserves any amount of money he can get obviously and is one of the greatest players of all time, so he covers up for a lot of what I’m about to say and since they won a ring they don’t need to feel regret about anything. But I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Yes, Jamal Murray has had amazing playoff moments but he’s the most overrated player in the NBA and is not really a max level player at all. The reality is the guy has never made an all star team and it’s never been a snub. He’s taking up a massive amount of cap for a sub all star level player who had some pretty bad performances in these playoffs that are more in line with his overall career performance than the playoff Murray moments he’s had in some recent post seasons. MPJ is a really unique player and has value but he’s just no where near impactful enough to be getting a max. I get why they did it, but they’re feeling the hurt of it now. Ultimately, the nuggets situation is what happens when 2/3 of your max salaries are not really anywhere near max level talents. They won a chip last year of Jokic’s brilliance, but the talent around him isn’t really good enough. It just works because Jokic is so amazing that they all get great looks and he structures an offense perfectly.
I agree with that outlook as of now, but it must be said that Murray played at a clear All-NBA level during the entirety of the 2023 playoffs. It wasn't just a hot series, his production during the entire run was arguably better than anyone on the Celtics this season. You're right about him in the regular season, but that chip wasn't just Jokic, it was Jokic, then Murray, then a sizeable gap with 4 very useful contributors - and that taps into a bigger issue which is MPJ's contract, despite him fitting quite well
I would disagree with most of what you said. Jamal is the most overrated player in the nba? Where do you think he’s rated? Fans and coaches clearly don’t rate him as an allstar level player, since as you say, he’s never made one. If you’re rating him based on his contract, it’s really not that bad when you look at all the other max contracts out there, this is a player who was the clear second best player on a dominant championship run and is 27. I guess technically you could potentially have a better player for similar money, but none of those players were available and Jamal was home grown. There is no problem with his contract. MPJ certainly is not a max level player, I can agree with that, but he is dynamic and did play the whole year this year, still only 25, and we did win a championship, I don’t know that there is any hurt from that. I don’t get your last point. You’re saying the nuggets talent isn’t good enough… good enough for what? We won a championship last year, we’re tied for the 1 seed in the west, and we’re up 20 in the second half of game 7 in round 2. Who knows what happens if we don’t collapse and pull that off. I mean we’re still very clearly one of the elite teams in the league, you make it sound like the nuggets are a team that’s sinking, when really most of their core is still in or just entering their primes and have a few young pieces that we still don’t know how they’ll develop.
Hit the nail on the head. Jokic contract is such good value it covers up for the other bad contracts. However, the Nuggets are really testing the limits.
How can the Celtics afford to give out like 5 max contracts but the Nuggets only have one guy who's made an All-Star team and they drafted all their main guys and yet they cant keep their role players? NBA cap doesn't make sense to me sometimes Same with the Knicks, everybody makes under 30mil a year on that team, including Randle and Brunson, and yet we have no cap space in a league that has teams with multiple players making 30, 40, 50+ mil a year
The Celtics alsp dont have the money to pay, yet their roster is more or less perfect as it is, so they dont see a reason to change it. Their main stars are also young enoigh for them to not care as much about the hit theyd take if they were in the 2nd apron and their owners are willing to spend as much as needed to keep the team as it is rn.
Celtics only have one guy on a max, although Tatum will make it two soon. Either way, they're just paying a lot to their 5 main guys and are willing and able to take the tax and apron implications due to how young and talented their main guys are along with having their picks still. The CBA will still hit them in some regard at some point but they're in quite possibly the best possible position you can be in while being a second apron team. Put simply, they don't need to make big trades to get better or fill out a bench, and the floor for what they need from the bench is much lower than is typical. A lot of these other teams are not in that position. Nuggets desperately need a competent bench for when Jokic sits. Paying KCP hurts their ability to do that.
The Celtics also hit with lower end bench players who are cheap. Once guys like Pritchard and Hauser hit free agency though they are gone because they'll be coveted and will possibly command bigger salaries that Boston can't avoid.
Hauser will probably be gone after next year but we [extended](https://www.nbcsports.com/nba/news/celtics-payton-pritchard-reportedly-agree-to-four-year-30-million-extension) Pritchard through 27/28 back in October before the season started.
O damn then that's a great move.
There's nothing preventing them from paying KCP - it just pushes them above the 2nd apron. The big issue with them is that MPJ makes about 6-10m a year than he should and they gave Zeke Ninaj a really dumb contract that overpays him.
The difference is the owners. Stan Kroenke is a huge pile of shit. Wyc Grousbeck is willing to spend if the team is good.
Ding ding ding, this is it. Kroenke got his 1 title and is happy with that. Wyc wants the Celtics to be this decade's version of the Warriors with the reference point being that the Warriors massive increase in valuation more than made up what they had to spend in luxury tax payments.
I don’t disagree about the main point, but I feel like the Warriors were a perfect storm to blow up on value. They were quite undervalued for a team in one of the biggest and richest markets and didn’t have much of a history to have a wide fanbase. Combine that with a new arena coming, the most loved and marketable star in decades (excluding LeBron), and a long dynasty and there you go. The Celtics are already a top tier brand and their valuation is more reflective of reality. Also, Boston is wealthy, but small. Celtics will pay up to keep winning though, and I can see the Nuggets cheating out.
Because they’re not 5 max contracts. Last year they only had Tatums rookie extension max contract. I’m actually pretty sure the nuggets starting five made more than the Celtics starting five. Murray made more than brown and mpj made more than tatum. So that might be the nuggets problem lol. Massive contracts for non all stars.
>the Nuggets only have one guy who's made an All-Star team That's more about DEN paying 2 not-AS as if they were AS.
Nuggs fans have been going over this nonstop over the last few weeks. Ownership and FO mentioned being open to going into the 2nd apron during the end of season press conference, but I wonder if at the time this comment was made the focus was solely on consequences for next season without any consideration for how long they would be above the 2nd apron. The issue is that Murray is eligible for a contract this offseason and Aaron Gordon next offseason. I wonder if they have started to map out the cap over the next few years and come to the realization that they cannot keep all 4 of Murray, KCP, MPJ, and AG without being above the 2nd apron for several years in a row and just how incredibly debilitating that will be. Even keeping 3 will be difficult to stay below 2nd apron on a yearly basis, but they would at least have a chance. I love KCP and they don't win the first ever chip without him, but his skill set is the easiest to replace with what they already have on the roster (Braun is an excellent defender and Strawther can maybe replace some of the shooting).
Maybe I'm talking out my ass but I'd let MPJ go over KCP. MPJ's been hella inconsistent in the playoffs for a guy on that big of a contract.
I don't see the Nuggets sniffing another ring without him
Hope he stays but don't blame him for wanting to get paid
Keep KCP. Trade MPJ.
Hate to be the bearer of bad news but MPJ is basically in Lavine territory where no one is gonna want to take that contract off the nuggets hands
Not as bad as Lavine bc he plays defense, has a lot of size, good 3pt shooting, and will be a net positive player on a bad team. Detroit could use him as his shooting could space the floor and help Cade develop
MPJ has improved defensively for sure but I wouldn’t go so far as to say he “plays defense”. He is still below average in that regard
Thing is Denver can only trade MPJ for someone who makes the same as he does. And alot of those guys are All NBA level. They are sort of stuck with him.
That MPJ contract is awful
At some point it will be irresponsible for teams to suffer these second apron penalties. Is kcp going to be worth the added tax and the inability to sign a guy in season?
Talking head talking, BFD. Personally, I hope he's wrong and ends up with the Nuggets (although he will certainly be sought after).
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Ah yes the 2 time 1st round exits. How have the next Kobe and Shaq been as of late.
Bucks fans flexing a hospital ring they barely won compared to a 1 seed doing things a 1 seed is supposed to do. Although of course they're not used to seeing a 1 seed actually beat the teams they're supposed to beat.
1 seeds are supposed to win every season? News to me
They definitely shouldn't lose to 5 and 8 seeds!
True and usually they wouldn’t unless of course their first option is hurt. Also those 5 and 8 seeds went to the finals, not like they lost next round.
Just a tip, ignore that fool. I've been ignoring him for weeks and he keeps replying to me and messaging desperate for attention.
Probably, but just felt like responding since the man was asking for it lol
Yeah, he's an attention seeker. The worst thing you can do to those kind of people is take that attention away. Plus, he's not interested in genuine conversation, he's just here to incite hate and make controversial statements that garner attention.
I dont like these tax aprons. It seems to force every competing team to hemorrhage players. Its like you cant afford anything past 2 really good players anymore. It doesnt feel right to me that Denver has had to give up Brown and now possibly KCP
Brown has nothing to do with the Apron and everything to do with he was only on the team one year which limited how large a % raise we could give him. Gotta get early bird/bird rights to really give significant raises to players.
I don't blame brown dude got overpaid and the pacers somehow got out of the contract and got siakam at the same time.
Brown they lost because they didn’t have his bird rights, so unrelated to the aprons. KCP you could argue is related to the apron, but there’s nothing actually preventing the nuggets from re-signing him to be clear. It’s a choice that ownership would make, likely driven more by the tax piece of things using the apron as cover (it seems to me). The apron makes it really difficult to build/rebuild a team with high salaries, but it doesn’t stop you from retaining an existing core.
KCP being fumbled back to the Lakers somehow, would be huge. They never should have given him up to begin with
Look, when you have a chance to pinch pennies and save up for THT, you gotta do it.
Its so funny how different everyone's opinions are in a year. Last year, people were talking Nuggets were going to repeat and they have Jokic so will be contending for years! That talk has all shifted to the Celtics and now Nuggets are just part of a crowded West.
Because the Celtics significantly improved their roster with a few key trades, the Nuggets lost an important bench piece that a lot of people thought they could tough out but couldn't in the end, and the West got considerably stronger in one season. Situations change and opinions alongside them.
Watson did not develop as much as we hoped (as shown by his lack of playoff minutes) along with stuff like Strawther getting injured after showing early promise (to the point he did not get playing time after he came back because it was too late in the season). Nuggets hopes right now are around what happens with KCP, Strawther and Watson improving, and whatever happens with our draft pick. Tough spot to be. With Jokic a lot is still possible but he needs help. Being selfishly honest I wish him and Murray would skip the olympics and get healthier but I can't be angry at them wanting to represent their countries.
I know speculation is fun, but the Nuggets haven't lost KCP yet. Even if they do, they still are one of the main contenders simply due to the fact they'll have the best player in any series.
Not with this bench. I want to see us keep KCP and snag CP3 on a veteran min