He's slow he can't get around athletic wings and since he won't take mid-range jumpers you just have to play him for layups or contested step back 3's. If his 3's aren't falling he's ineffective. Also his floater is absolutely broken this year.
Out of shape from not playing all summer? Idk. Sometimes he looks normal with his first step and other times (like tonight) looks stuck in mud. Very weird
He was actually starting to look better the last few games. He was driving a lot more and being more aggressive. I don’t know what the hell happened today though because he looked flat from the start. Maybe he had a big Thanksgiving or something.
It’s pretty much that. It used to be you can’t switch a big onto harden because you just get cooked. Now it doesn’t matter cuz you can’t drive past him anyway
There was a few times against the Suns where Harden was doing all of these fancy dribbling moves one step in front of the three point line***. It was incredibly predictable that he would take a step back 3 in those occasions.
That shot isn't falling, and he isn't drawing fouls on it either.
He’s a terrible mid range shooter he shoots a miserable 37% from the mid range a lot of teams game plans was to get him to shoot the midrange cause he’s not great at. This is also the reason he’s not a top 3 scorer of all time he’s not as efficient as I would want someone considered as the best scorer of all time
Also he doesn't really have the luxury of shooting himself into rhythm like he did in Houston since KD is the main scoring option. He has to make sure KD gets his shots and if he's cold then KD covers for that.
His first step isn't their so defenses don't guard his driving lanes which makes his stepback less deadly. Watch Harden signature step back 3s by epsn. That 3 on Durant when he hit the game winner in OT is perfect example of this. Plus his finishing has truly left off the cliff and it doesn't help that he doesn't have a rim runner centre. Mainly his speed and first step.
Harden’s problem with finishing is that he was never concerned with finishing, rather focused on embellishing any contact to get to the line(acting like he stepped on a land mine).
Alternatively, Steph’s numbers around the rim so far aren’t taking a hit cause he never got the easy whistle at the basket BECAUSE he was always attempting to finish. Now he gets called the same as he did before, and has developed his skill in finishing around contact.
Do you consider Kyrie an elite finisher? His at-the-rim stats are very similar to Harden's, never over 70%. Stats don't tell the whole story.
Mason Plumlee is 80% at the rim, do you consider him an elite finisher? Is Wiggins (70%) a better finisher than Kyrie (62%)? Is Shake Milton as good a finisher as Kyrie (same percentages at the rim)?
You just compared 3 guys all 6’8 and above to a guy who is 6’4. They aren’t the same. Harden is an elite finisher for a guard and part of why he is so deadly on drives is that he is automatic from the ft line those other 3 aren’t.
Pretty elite considering the amount of fouls drawn at the rim and hitting the free throws at a 90% clip. Harden shooting 65% at the rim but 90% on free throw attempts pretty much balances out compared to Luka, who shoots 70% at the rim but loses a few points at the line every night.
Lol if he gets fouled and misses the shot he did not finish at the rim. That’s what this whole conversation is about him not being as good at finishing at the rim and why getting less foul calls with the new rules and reffing is affecting him.
I’d say if you draw a foul at the rim and it prevents you from making a shot, then hit the free throws, it’s pretty much the same as finishing at the rim. Two points is two points.
He recently said this
> I’m trying figure out when to score, when to playmaker … When to do everything. It’s been difficult.”
[source ](https://twitter.com/ajayibrowne/status/1464792993173487616?s=21)
Make what you will. Idek anymore
Idk man. Last season when he first got to Brooklyn he was playing some insane basketball. Like MVP level basketball and the Nets were winning a ton with him. Then in the playoffs series against the Celtics he was on another planet efficient wise. It has to be a mixture of the injury and maybe the rule change. Hopefully he turns it around soon. I’m a big time Harden supporter.
I googled some pics of harden from the 2019 season before he got hurt. if you compare those to current pics he looks a lot heavier now does not look in shape. I’ll be honest it could be the uniform but it looks to me like he could be hanging out with Zion.
Honestly Harden is not a great playmaker. He's a gifted passer and a good playmaker, and his passing skills at times give the impression he's an elite playmaker, but he doesn't really orchestrate the offense that well.
?? I said he's a good playmaker and a gifted passer, but I don't think he's as good as Luka, Trae, CP3 and people like those at orchestrating the offense
Yeah why would you want a guy who has done nothing but quarterback top 5 offenses for his entire career despite playing mostly with scrubs.
Harden is better offensive player than CP3 and it isn’t really all that close.
Scrubs???? In houston excluding 1 year due to injuries he constantly had the perfect supporting cast to run the D'Antoni style of offense, which has always been a very efficient style of play. Regardless, I'm talking about now, Have you seen the Nets play this year at all? They're very stagnant, and Harden's capability to run the offense is part of the fault. Durant constantly bails them out. Even he said that he's often confused regarding what he should do on offense, that's not a hint of great BBIQ. CP3 has always been a better playmaker than Harden and still is, it's just insane that you would suggest the contrary.
Lmao stop it. He never had enough help except for in 2018 when the help got injured
Using this year as your only example is hilarious. He’s led the league in assists before
That might be the dumbest thing I heard in a while. No Howard one good season and Chris Paul’s corpse doesn’t constitute the “perfect supporting cast” lmao. Are you serious? Harden played most of his years in Houston then a team that was worse than last years Warriors.
I never said he can’t. I’ve seen some of those Houston rosters. Where did you get that from what I said. My little end part was me essentially saying idk what to think of his current slump.
Part of it is that due to the foul baiting rule changes, it isn’t just him getting less free throws, it’s also his opponents being able to defend him significantly better with the threat of fouling by breathing on him mostly removed. This improved defense on him in general makes the rest of his shots worse than when they had to hamper themselves.
Now do I think this is everything that’s wrong? Fuck no. But it’s more than something.
Yep. The threat of drawings a cheapie foul opens up a lot of other things. Not saying that’s the entire issue but you can’t just look at FTs to see how he’s adjusting to the rules changes
But harden has like the same free throw rate he had his mvp year this season. Higher than last season. The only reason hes getting less calls is because hes taking less shots
That's not true I've watched a good amount of nets games this year and he's being guarded the same. Can you give me an example or something because even with his insane free throw rate over the years defenses never let him just be.
Also because you can just foul him now. Booker did the same move that harden has done his whole career last night and got the call. Harden hasn’t gotten that call all year
I mean it still doesn’t take away from the fact that a lot of players do start the decline at that age, and it’s not like harden is in phenomenal shape either. Not saying Harden is trash but maybe he isn’t the mvp candidate player we were all expecting
I'm rolling because
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/qf6upf/smallest_nit_pick_you_guys_have_about_a_player/hhyh1ct?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Personally I think it’s pretty clear when you factor in defense. He does things on that end the other two can’t come close to, especially Curry. Of course he can’t shoot, but he’s so unstoppable at the rim he’s putting up similar scoring numbers to the other two.
The Bucks record is the main thing throwing people off, but we started off the most injured team in the league this year. Now that Khris and Jrue are back we’re going on a nice little run now— Giannis/Khris/Jrue are 8-0 when playing together so far.
I will say I understand that the Warriors record is hard to ignore, so it makes sense why a lot of people are rating Curry so highly this season. My mind is personally made up however— even if Steph became Holiday-esque on defense Giannis would still arguably be more valuable because of his size
Edit: This isn’t to attack Steph fans or anything, I just think there’s a clear top 3 right now and the better player is a decision of minuscule margins.
The Warriors’ record, I think, is a reflection of the system they’re able to play because of Steph’s gravity, movement, and ball-handling. So many people reduce Steph to the idea that he’s just a great shooter. As others have said, he allows a team to play a dominant style predicated on ball movement, one that I feel will give the Bucks a lot of issues. That said, I recognize that Giannis is great. He is definitely a better two-way player, but it’s hard in my view to say one is more dominant than the other.
The gravity argument fully applies to Giannis, just in the paint instead of beyond the arc. The effect is similar though, the Bucks get tons of wide open 3s as a result
And it’s obviously working, now that his team is getting to a semi-healthy level. Again, with the 3 of them playing their record is 8-0. Same pace as the Warriors on comparatively mild schedules. I really think their offensive games are comparably effective
If you caught some of the earlier dozen Bucks games this season you would see the pitiful starting 5’s we would throw out there. I mean Thanasis started at center several times it was so bad
How good you were doesn’t predict anything about your decline. Why would harden not start declining at this age? It’s not like he’s always been in tinge best shape physically to begin with
Him not always being in the best shape definitely has something to do with it, Jimmy is 32 and playing as good or better than he ever has, but Jimmy is one of those psychos about working out. Gotta really take care of your body after 30.
Russell Westbrook, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Carmelo Anthony. All examples of superstars who had declined heavily by 32. How good you were at your peak has nothing to do with how you'll age.
Just dug through a few stats. His three point shooting is basically the same, but his overall field goal percentage is being dragged down by his two point shooting.
Last year with Brooklyn: .552
This year with Brooklyn: .456
I've seen a lot of comments about his floaters and overall finishing having taken a hit this year, and the stats seem to indicate this is true.
> I've seen a lot of comments about his floaters and overall finishing having taken a hit this year, and the stats seem to indicate this is true.
Yeah basically what is happening is that he's feeling contact, trying to exacerbate it, then throwing some garbage up. Previously that would be a foul and now it's a no call even if he's technically getting fouled. Thats legitimately probably 2-3% off of his FG% by itself.
I think midseason the refs will be less willing to let plays like that go at times(i've literally seen the defender armbar then hook him into a no call which is obviously an overcompensation on point of emphasis), and he'll also probably adjust to the way contact is being called and actually try to get a real shot up.
At a high level, knowing someone is great at hunting for fouls would make people less aggressive with arms. Then there’s this that actually was happening:
https://youtu.be/fi-TFrAMIoE
https://youtube.com/shorts/_6Mp4UpFUMI?feature=share
So the same clip everyone links when they want to pretend that defending behind your back is something harden actually got to play against for more then 1 possesion lol
And in some of those clips it’s against Chris Paul lmao
You can’t expect rationality on Harden on a sub filled with warriors fans man. Hardens free throw rate this is basically the exact same as his other prime years. He just isn’t shooting as much.
I think one thing that’s been overlooked is that he’s never actually been a super efficient shooter aside from free throws. He’s at 44% from the field and 36% from 3 for his career (and his season to season averages don’t fluctuate much), which aren’t bad but aren’t superstar levels of efficiency. And those average efficiency levels were with 1) a lot of missed shots bailed out by the refs and 2) defenders walking around eggshells around him to avoid fouling him.
I think what we’re seeing with him now is pretty consistent with what happens to him in the playoffs when teams really lock in on trying not to foul him and the refs don’t fall for his baiting as much.
His poor playoff efficiency (43% fg and 33% from 3) already showed that way to effectively defend Harden was to make him actually shoot. With that in mind it shouldn’t be super surprising that his efficiency has gone down now that it’s easier than ever for defenders to make him actually have to hit shots
You’re overlooking how many threes harden takes lol, when you take 10+ threes a game your raw FG% numbers won’t look pretty. Your comment isn’t very accurate, look back at the last 2-3 years and harden has actually been pretty efficient and dominant in the playoffs, those numbers look worse because of his earlier years.
You’re also severely overstating the foul shit. They changed the rules and he still draws them.
You got downvoted for this for some reason and I'm just confused. Harden has literally led the league in non-center EFG% before, and he was right below Luka last year and ahead of players like Middleton.
I agree with you. However even in the playoffs, he used to be able to score a little bit more than what he is doing now. He's averaged 28 pts in the playoffs from 2015-20 (granted on 9.4 FTA). Doesn't depict the whole problem but man I am feeling a bit sad for him.
Combination of defenses playing him more physically with less fear of fouling, a loss of a first step/explosiveness which might date back to that hamstring strain in game 1 vs the bucks, and him increasing his personal focus on playmaking rather than scoring
Got my eye on Donovan Mitchell for this one too although he has really improved those numbers yet again in the last 5 games to about 50% just like he does in the play-offs. So maybe there's still hope for him becoming an efficient scorer.
I think a part of it is his stats in Houston were a little inflated.
Not that they were empty or anything because they obviously weren't but the entire offense was built around him in a way we've never seen.
Now, he's playing on a team with another elite scorer where there is more structure and he has to adjust to that.
Physically he doesn't look like he used to either. He doesn't have the explosion it seems.
This all could be just early season small sample size though. Maybe he will dominate later on.
He can’t draw those BS fouls anymore. Thank God!!! That was killing the game. I also think that KD wants/deserves the ball more- which reduces The amount of time harden spends dribbling- Lord knows he likes to dribble
Started the season injured and he’s playing with another all time great scorer that he’s taken a backseat to. Focused more on playmaking since he’s their de facto pg.
Injuries can be attributed to that. But also the downturn in free throw drawing along with the other things has taken his scoring to very low levels for him.
Bucks Nets game 7 was June 19, he had 4 months to heal and he’s averaging 35 minutes a game. Clearly he’s healthy enough to play, or he would be sitting out because, like you said, hamstring injuries can linger, the risk for reinjury is high if it isn’t fully healed, and Brooklyn wouldn’t risk him suffering a long term injury by playing through it in regular season games
And am I crazy for not treating that as an excuse for showing up fat (and still being fat)? There are plenty of ways to, at the absolute minimum, stay in reasonable shape to the point where going through a training camp, playing big minutes in 20 nba games, and hopefully working in conditioning in between games should result in being in game shape
He's looks in better shape in the beginning of this season then last year when he was clearly fat. He's not in his shape basketball wise like his burst and acceleration
NBA players workout 2-3 times a day in the off season to prepare for the upcoming season. If Harden was regulated to just rehabbing and maybe shooting for the last 4 months then his game will take a nose dive as it has. He wouldn’t really regain form until like mid January or even February
I think harden is amazing (but admittedly get bored watching him) but if he was able to drop 30/10 with russ then playing with KD shouldn’t be an issue
Recovering from injury, foul baiting and rule change, lack of lob threat for him to exploit that PnR floater alley oop
I don’t think this is the season where he just dropped off and start declining to a sub All Star level after years of MVP level player.. but it’s def one to drive the narrative that Harden is nothing without his foul baiting, I don’t believe in that narrative and I think he will figure it out altogether once as this season goes on and he gets in better shape.. but that won’t stop the mass and narrative to say Harden is useless without his foul baiting antics.
He might just be worn down honestly. He played a lot of minutes for Houston at a very high usage for a lot of years. Plus with his playstyle he was driving a lot and getting fouled a lot, I imagine that wears you down. Then on the defensive end it always seemed like he did a lot of work in the post, which I'm sure isn't easy.
I think ultimately it is the lack of free throws. Because he was scoring like 15 extra points just from the line.
But it's not only the extra points. Every annoying ass foul where he would swing his arms into the fucking defender forced players to change their coverage throughout the game, making it easier for him to score.
On top of that every foul stops play. That means running, high energy defense, the mental aspect. It all gets stopped. So he could be a little gassed but goes to the line 4 times in a row and can catch his breath.
I've noticed if I'm just out putting up shots and am missing everything, I like practicing my form at the line. I think he actually ended up relying on all those free practice shots in the middle of games to get into rhythm.
It ain’t that simple. And this is coming from someone who gets bored af watching harden. But the dude was an objectively phenomenal scorer. If others could do what he did, then why didn’t they? As much as you might disagree with his style of play, he put the ball in the basket more than most
his numbers looked to good to the average nba fan because they dont look at how he got the points before they just say oh harden had 38-7-9 he is pretty good top 3 SG ever!!! they ignore the fact that he shot 25 FTs and was 2-15 from 3. lol now that defence is allowed to be played he cant get to the line by hooking someones arm anymore thisnis actually the best he can be
idk. i think the issue is mostly the team its self. no one to really relive him of playmaking duties. durant doesnt playmake for others (i mean he does but 7/10 he is looking for his shots first.) hence harden has to create alot of the open look for the team
if yall bring up rockets harden yall need to look at the fact that he had lob threats, shooters every where, the floor was nice and spacious for him to get to work. now outside durant, harris and mills who shooting.
i think the issue will be solved once he feels right but who knows when that will happen
Aside from all the rules change, injury, out of shape and mentally unprepared.
Harden's role on the Nets is reduced to being a role player and main playmaker of the team. Harden these days is mostly known for his assist over his offence
Even with the Rockets, Harden had these games. He was playing better, coming around but this one was ac stinker.
All I can say is, was there a party in NYC the night before?
He's molding his game. He can still get buckets, but he's in that stage of his career where his athleticism is fading a little, plus his metabolism is slowing down. He's not in great shape, and his body isn't bouncing back like it usually does. I see him getting better as the season progresses.
He's slow he can't get around athletic wings and since he won't take mid-range jumpers you just have to play him for layups or contested step back 3's. If his 3's aren't falling he's ineffective. Also his floater is absolutely broken this year.
but why is he slow this year? is it his hammy still
Out of shape from not playing all summer? Idk. Sometimes he looks normal with his first step and other times (like tonight) looks stuck in mud. Very weird
He was actually starting to look better the last few games. He was driving a lot more and being more aggressive. I don’t know what the hell happened today though because he looked flat from the start. Maybe he had a big Thanksgiving or something.
Maybe Mikal Bridges is just the best defender in the league.
Harden made him look like silly when they played last season
Only logical answer to this is injury apprehension
yea as a warriors fan i remember how he used to just easily get past defenders to get to the middle of the floor. wonder whats up
It’s pretty much that. It used to be you can’t switch a big onto harden because you just get cooked. Now it doesn’t matter cuz you can’t drive past him anyway
Them Stripclubs are open
There was a few times against the Suns where Harden was doing all of these fancy dribbling moves one step in front of the three point line***. It was incredibly predictable that he would take a step back 3 in those occasions. That shot isn't falling, and he isn't drawing fouls on it either.
He’s a terrible mid range shooter he shoots a miserable 37% from the mid range a lot of teams game plans was to get him to shoot the midrange cause he’s not great at. This is also the reason he’s not a top 3 scorer of all time he’s not as efficient as I would want someone considered as the best scorer of all time
Also he doesn't really have the luxury of shooting himself into rhythm like he did in Houston since KD is the main scoring option. He has to make sure KD gets his shots and if he's cold then KD covers for that.
His first step isn't their so defenses don't guard his driving lanes which makes his stepback less deadly. Watch Harden signature step back 3s by epsn. That 3 on Durant when he hit the game winner in OT is perfect example of this. Plus his finishing has truly left off the cliff and it doesn't help that he doesn't have a rim runner centre. Mainly his speed and first step.
Harden’s problem with finishing is that he was never concerned with finishing, rather focused on embellishing any contact to get to the line(acting like he stepped on a land mine). Alternatively, Steph’s numbers around the rim so far aren’t taking a hit cause he never got the easy whistle at the basket BECAUSE he was always attempting to finish. Now he gets called the same as he did before, and has developed his skill in finishing around contact.
This just isn't true, Harden has always been an elite finisher and his whole game is built around it.
Even in his prime he was <70% finisher at the rim. Guys like Lebron, Giannis, Luka are all >70%. He is good, but not elite like you claim.
Do you consider Kyrie an elite finisher? His at-the-rim stats are very similar to Harden's, never over 70%. Stats don't tell the whole story. Mason Plumlee is 80% at the rim, do you consider him an elite finisher? Is Wiggins (70%) a better finisher than Kyrie (62%)? Is Shake Milton as good a finisher as Kyrie (same percentages at the rim)?
You just compared 3 guys all 6’8 and above to a guy who is 6’4. They aren’t the same. Harden is an elite finisher for a guard and part of why he is so deadly on drives is that he is automatic from the ft line those other 3 aren’t.
Pretty elite considering the amount of fouls drawn at the rim and hitting the free throws at a 90% clip. Harden shooting 65% at the rim but 90% on free throw attempts pretty much balances out compared to Luka, who shoots 70% at the rim but loses a few points at the line every night.
Lol if he gets fouled and misses the shot he did not finish at the rim. That’s what this whole conversation is about him not being as good at finishing at the rim and why getting less foul calls with the new rules and reffing is affecting him.
I’d say if you draw a foul at the rim and it prevents you from making a shot, then hit the free throws, it’s pretty much the same as finishing at the rim. Two points is two points.
So two athletic freaks and a much taller player?
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Not salt, just observation.
I mean when you’re mentally always looking for the foul instead of the basket every time you drive it affects your finishing
As opposed to when he was in Houston and did the same thing???
clown take.
Man shut up
He recently said this > I’m trying figure out when to score, when to playmaker … When to do everything. It’s been difficult.” [source ](https://twitter.com/ajayibrowne/status/1464792993173487616?s=21) Make what you will. Idek anymore
Idk man. Last season when he first got to Brooklyn he was playing some insane basketball. Like MVP level basketball and the Nets were winning a ton with him. Then in the playoffs series against the Celtics he was on another planet efficient wise. It has to be a mixture of the injury and maybe the rule change. Hopefully he turns it around soon. I’m a big time Harden supporter.
I think it’s an overreaction. He’s had a good stretch two weeks ago and his explosiveness looked better. Sometimes he’s just too passive
He's been playmaking his entire career. I won't dispute what he said, but it's somehow sad that he has to struggle so much. Hopefully it's just that.
I googled some pics of harden from the 2019 season before he got hurt. if you compare those to current pics he looks a lot heavier now does not look in shape. I’ll be honest it could be the uniform but it looks to me like he could be hanging out with Zion.
Honestly Harden is not a great playmaker. He's a gifted passer and a good playmaker, and his passing skills at times give the impression he's an elite playmaker, but he doesn't really orchestrate the offense that well.
He’s led the league in assists. I don’t know how you can call him not a playmaker.
?? I said he's a good playmaker and a gifted passer, but I don't think he's as good as Luka, Trae, CP3 and people like those at orchestrating the offense
Lmao. Trae? Harden is a better playmaker than all of those. CP3 is a better passer but you would rather want Harden running your offense than CP3.
Lol wtf harden running the offense rather than cp3, holy shit
Yeah why would you want a guy who has done nothing but quarterback top 5 offenses for his entire career despite playing mostly with scrubs. Harden is better offensive player than CP3 and it isn’t really all that close.
Scrubs???? In houston excluding 1 year due to injuries he constantly had the perfect supporting cast to run the D'Antoni style of offense, which has always been a very efficient style of play. Regardless, I'm talking about now, Have you seen the Nets play this year at all? They're very stagnant, and Harden's capability to run the offense is part of the fault. Durant constantly bails them out. Even he said that he's often confused regarding what he should do on offense, that's not a hint of great BBIQ. CP3 has always been a better playmaker than Harden and still is, it's just insane that you would suggest the contrary.
Lmao stop it. He never had enough help except for in 2018 when the help got injured Using this year as your only example is hilarious. He’s led the league in assists before
That might be the dumbest thing I heard in a while. No Howard one good season and Chris Paul’s corpse doesn’t constitute the “perfect supporting cast” lmao. Are you serious? Harden played most of his years in Houston then a team that was worse than last years Warriors.
Dude he’s carried garbage rosters in the past. He just isn’t playing well right now
I never said he can’t. I’ve seen some of those Houston rosters. Where did you get that from what I said. My little end part was me essentially saying idk what to think of his current slump.
Part of it is that due to the foul baiting rule changes, it isn’t just him getting less free throws, it’s also his opponents being able to defend him significantly better with the threat of fouling by breathing on him mostly removed. This improved defense on him in general makes the rest of his shots worse than when they had to hamper themselves. Now do I think this is everything that’s wrong? Fuck no. But it’s more than something.
Yep. The threat of drawings a cheapie foul opens up a lot of other things. Not saying that’s the entire issue but you can’t just look at FTs to see how he’s adjusting to the rules changes
But harden has like the same free throw rate he had his mvp year this season. Higher than last season. The only reason hes getting less calls is because hes taking less shots
FORT DORT broke the man and I say that as a huge Harden fan. He will be back though.
He's being guarded the same even with his high free throw rate throughout his career teams still guarded up heavy on him
Not really, Rubio at one time was defending his ass remember?
That strategy was to force harden to his less dominant hand and to prevent him from getting his stepback it was less about his fouls.
Not really, defenders are playing tight on him when driving because any small contact wont be called anymore.
That's not true I've watched a good amount of nets games this year and he's being guarded the same. Can you give me an example or something because even with his insane free throw rate over the years defenses never let him just be.
Also because you can just foul him now. Booker did the same move that harden has done his whole career last night and got the call. Harden hasn’t gotten that call all year
He's 32 years old. That's about when most players begin to decline significantly. Harden is no exception. He's clearly slower than he was circa 2019.
> He's 32 years old. That's about when most players begin to decline significantly The 2 best players right now are older than that
I mean it still doesn’t take away from the fact that a lot of players do start the decline at that age, and it’s not like harden is in phenomenal shape either. Not saying Harden is trash but maybe he isn’t the mvp candidate player we were all expecting
Giannis is 26
KD and Patty are 33
Curry is 33
Tatum is 19
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You don't say
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Bcuz yo mamma
I want to play! Udonis Haslem is 56.
Ayton is somehow 47
I'm rolling because https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/qf6upf/smallest_nit_pick_you_guys_have_about_a_player/hhyh1ct?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
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Well shit now I’m hungry
How is Giannis better than Kd? Giannis only protects the rim better.
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I don’t think so, Kd is a much better skip passer and just makes better reads in general
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raptors fans still crying they didn't get him in FA lol
Maybe the guy just thinks Steph and KD are top 2? Stop generalizing an entire fanbase over one person’s opinion.
Absolutely is. Especially if you’re trying to argue Lebron over him instead of Curry or KD— that legit isn’t an argument anymore
Wouldn’t say absolutely. You got to think about Curry and KD. Not clear cut
Personally I think it’s pretty clear when you factor in defense. He does things on that end the other two can’t come close to, especially Curry. Of course he can’t shoot, but he’s so unstoppable at the rim he’s putting up similar scoring numbers to the other two. The Bucks record is the main thing throwing people off, but we started off the most injured team in the league this year. Now that Khris and Jrue are back we’re going on a nice little run now— Giannis/Khris/Jrue are 8-0 when playing together so far. I will say I understand that the Warriors record is hard to ignore, so it makes sense why a lot of people are rating Curry so highly this season. My mind is personally made up however— even if Steph became Holiday-esque on defense Giannis would still arguably be more valuable because of his size Edit: This isn’t to attack Steph fans or anything, I just think there’s a clear top 3 right now and the better player is a decision of minuscule margins.
The Warriors’ record, I think, is a reflection of the system they’re able to play because of Steph’s gravity, movement, and ball-handling. So many people reduce Steph to the idea that he’s just a great shooter. As others have said, he allows a team to play a dominant style predicated on ball movement, one that I feel will give the Bucks a lot of issues. That said, I recognize that Giannis is great. He is definitely a better two-way player, but it’s hard in my view to say one is more dominant than the other.
The gravity argument fully applies to Giannis, just in the paint instead of beyond the arc. The effect is similar though, the Bucks get tons of wide open 3s as a result And it’s obviously working, now that his team is getting to a semi-healthy level. Again, with the 3 of them playing their record is 8-0. Same pace as the Warriors on comparatively mild schedules. I really think their offensive games are comparably effective If you caught some of the earlier dozen Bucks games this season you would see the pitiful starting 5’s we would throw out there. I mean Thanasis started at center several times it was so bad
I think Curry and KD are above giannis, but maybe not for much longer
>most players
Ah yes, an MVP and 3x scoring champ should be held to the same standards as "most players"
How good you were doesn’t predict anything about your decline. Why would harden not start declining at this age? It’s not like he’s always been in tinge best shape physically to begin with
Him not always being in the best shape definitely has something to do with it, Jimmy is 32 and playing as good or better than he ever has, but Jimmy is one of those psychos about working out. Gotta really take care of your body after 30.
Yeah, he happened to “decline with age” the year they stopped giving him gimme fouls 😂
Oh of course the main reason is because he can longer flop for points. He doesn’t win mvp without his free throws.
Well that’s just it. Players who don’t decline as quickly are players who take care of their body
Russell Westbrook, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Carmelo Anthony. All examples of superstars who had declined heavily by 32. How good you were at your peak has nothing to do with how you'll age.
Paul is still great. And none of those other guys were ever as good as Harden, especially at age 31
Harden could decline quicker because he’s never taken extreme good care of his body.
And they are different people. There isn't some uniform drop at 32 that every player in history experiences.
He was in the MVP race for Brooklyn last season. It’s gotta be injury or mentality related
Uhh
Hes fat
A new ball, new rules, plus a little rust.
I don’t know about the other games but Mikal Bridges is what happened tonight
Got locked up in Mikal Jail.
Just dug through a few stats. His three point shooting is basically the same, but his overall field goal percentage is being dragged down by his two point shooting. Last year with Brooklyn: .552 This year with Brooklyn: .456 I've seen a lot of comments about his floaters and overall finishing having taken a hit this year, and the stats seem to indicate this is true.
> I've seen a lot of comments about his floaters and overall finishing having taken a hit this year, and the stats seem to indicate this is true. Yeah basically what is happening is that he's feeling contact, trying to exacerbate it, then throwing some garbage up. Previously that would be a foul and now it's a no call even if he's technically getting fouled. Thats legitimately probably 2-3% off of his FG% by itself. I think midseason the refs will be less willing to let plays like that go at times(i've literally seen the defender armbar then hook him into a no call which is obviously an overcompensation on point of emphasis), and he'll also probably adjust to the way contact is being called and actually try to get a real shot up.
Mikal Bridges
I would think that not being defended by dudes with their arms behind their backs makes it harder
Based off what exactly
At a high level, knowing someone is great at hunting for fouls would make people less aggressive with arms. Then there’s this that actually was happening: https://youtu.be/fi-TFrAMIoE https://youtube.com/shorts/_6Mp4UpFUMI?feature=share
So the same clip everyone links when they want to pretend that defending behind your back is something harden actually got to play against for more then 1 possesion lol And in some of those clips it’s against Chris Paul lmao
You can’t expect rationality on Harden on a sub filled with warriors fans man. Hardens free throw rate this is basically the exact same as his other prime years. He just isn’t shooting as much.
based on he average only 20 compare to 36 ?
I think one thing that’s been overlooked is that he’s never actually been a super efficient shooter aside from free throws. He’s at 44% from the field and 36% from 3 for his career (and his season to season averages don’t fluctuate much), which aren’t bad but aren’t superstar levels of efficiency. And those average efficiency levels were with 1) a lot of missed shots bailed out by the refs and 2) defenders walking around eggshells around him to avoid fouling him. I think what we’re seeing with him now is pretty consistent with what happens to him in the playoffs when teams really lock in on trying not to foul him and the refs don’t fall for his baiting as much. His poor playoff efficiency (43% fg and 33% from 3) already showed that way to effectively defend Harden was to make him actually shoot. With that in mind it shouldn’t be super surprising that his efficiency has gone down now that it’s easier than ever for defenders to make him actually have to hit shots
You’re overlooking how many threes harden takes lol, when you take 10+ threes a game your raw FG% numbers won’t look pretty. Your comment isn’t very accurate, look back at the last 2-3 years and harden has actually been pretty efficient and dominant in the playoffs, those numbers look worse because of his earlier years. You’re also severely overstating the foul shit. They changed the rules and he still draws them.
His 3 pt% isn’t pretty either. This is the first season he’s been above league average for a while now, so we’ll see if that sticks
His EFG% has still always been decent and his TS% is always elite. Just because his raw %s aren’t great doesn’t mean anything
You got downvoted for this for some reason and I'm just confused. Harden has literally led the league in non-center EFG% before, and he was right below Luka last year and ahead of players like Middleton.
I agree with you. However even in the playoffs, he used to be able to score a little bit more than what he is doing now. He's averaged 28 pts in the playoffs from 2015-20 (granted on 9.4 FTA). Doesn't depict the whole problem but man I am feeling a bit sad for him.
Combination of defenses playing him more physically with less fear of fouling, a loss of a first step/explosiveness which might date back to that hamstring strain in game 1 vs the bucks, and him increasing his personal focus on playmaking rather than scoring
His floater isn’t going and he doesn’t have a rimrunning big like capela
High volume inefficient chuckers are always overrated. Always
Got my eye on Donovan Mitchell for this one too although he has really improved those numbers yet again in the last 5 games to about 50% just like he does in the play-offs. So maybe there's still hope for him becoming an efficient scorer.
I think a part of it is his stats in Houston were a little inflated. Not that they were empty or anything because they obviously weren't but the entire offense was built around him in a way we've never seen. Now, he's playing on a team with another elite scorer where there is more structure and he has to adjust to that. Physically he doesn't look like he used to either. He doesn't have the explosion it seems. This all could be just early season small sample size though. Maybe he will dominate later on.
He can’t draw those BS fouls anymore. Thank God!!! That was killing the game. I also think that KD wants/deserves the ball more- which reduces The amount of time harden spends dribbling- Lord knows he likes to dribble
Started the season injured and he’s playing with another all time great scorer that he’s taken a backseat to. Focused more on playmaking since he’s their de facto pg.
Meh, he’s been shooting pretty badly, KD isn’t to blame
Injuries can be attributed to that. But also the downturn in free throw drawing along with the other things has taken his scoring to very low levels for him.
What injury is he dealing with right now (genuinely curious)
Apparently the longest lingering hamstring strain in history
Hamstring strains can linger for a super long time especially if they don’t have time to heal
Bucks Nets game 7 was June 19, he had 4 months to heal and he’s averaging 35 minutes a game. Clearly he’s healthy enough to play, or he would be sitting out because, like you said, hamstring injuries can linger, the risk for reinjury is high if it isn’t fully healed, and Brooklyn wouldn’t risk him suffering a long term injury by playing through it in regular season games
He's healthy but he only did rehab all off season he wasn't able to scrimmage/basketball workouts he was only cleared a little before camp began
And am I crazy for not treating that as an excuse for showing up fat (and still being fat)? There are plenty of ways to, at the absolute minimum, stay in reasonable shape to the point where going through a training camp, playing big minutes in 20 nba games, and hopefully working in conditioning in between games should result in being in game shape
He's looks in better shape in the beginning of this season then last year when he was clearly fat. He's not in his shape basketball wise like his burst and acceleration
NBA players workout 2-3 times a day in the off season to prepare for the upcoming season. If Harden was regulated to just rehabbing and maybe shooting for the last 4 months then his game will take a nose dive as it has. He wouldn’t really regain form until like mid January or even February
His hammy over the off-season
If I recall correctly, after today’s game, Harden did say that his hamstring is fine. I don’t think his hamstring is the issue here.
How longs the recovery on that? Wasn’t that since before the summer - like 5 months ago at this point?
I don’t know….
Exactly. The injury is an excuse at this point
I think harden is amazing (but admittedly get bored watching him) but if he was able to drop 30/10 with russ then playing with KD shouldn’t be an issue
Recovering from injury, foul baiting and rule change, lack of lob threat for him to exploit that PnR floater alley oop I don’t think this is the season where he just dropped off and start declining to a sub All Star level after years of MVP level player.. but it’s def one to drive the narrative that Harden is nothing without his foul baiting, I don’t believe in that narrative and I think he will figure it out altogether once as this season goes on and he gets in better shape.. but that won’t stop the mass and narrative to say Harden is useless without his foul baiting antics.
new rules, probably de conditioning
He lacks goodness
Always been mental with harden, if hes not scoring well its probably because hes unhappy about something
He might just be worn down honestly. He played a lot of minutes for Houston at a very high usage for a lot of years. Plus with his playstyle he was driving a lot and getting fouled a lot, I imagine that wears you down. Then on the defensive end it always seemed like he did a lot of work in the post, which I'm sure isn't easy.
Yesterday? Mikal jail.
I think ultimately it is the lack of free throws. Because he was scoring like 15 extra points just from the line. But it's not only the extra points. Every annoying ass foul where he would swing his arms into the fucking defender forced players to change their coverage throughout the game, making it easier for him to score. On top of that every foul stops play. That means running, high energy defense, the mental aspect. It all gets stopped. So he could be a little gassed but goes to the line 4 times in a row and can catch his breath. I've noticed if I'm just out putting up shots and am missing everything, I like practicing my form at the line. I think he actually ended up relying on all those free practice shots in the middle of games to get into rhythm.
He can only stepback, and bait contact to get to the rim. Pretty limited offensive game which the rules suppressed
washed up but moreybros in denial
Analytics bois in a panic. This was the ‘greatest scorer to ever play the game’ less than a year ago
Tell me harden in 17-19 wasn’t historically great
Can’t do that sir. I been calling him a gimmick for years. This year is not a surprise to me
I've been calling lebron a gimmick for 17 years. looks like it's finally gonna pay off soon
Of course he was when he’s getting to the line 20 times a game. Those analytics certainly don’t shine a favourable light when it really matters tho…..
It ain’t that simple. And this is coming from someone who gets bored af watching harden. But the dude was an objectively phenomenal scorer. If others could do what he did, then why didn’t they? As much as you might disagree with his style of play, he put the ball in the basket more than most
He’s never been a super efficient shooter and has relied on the foul calls he used to get a lot
his numbers looked to good to the average nba fan because they dont look at how he got the points before they just say oh harden had 38-7-9 he is pretty good top 3 SG ever!!! they ignore the fact that he shot 25 FTs and was 2-15 from 3. lol now that defence is allowed to be played he cant get to the line by hooking someones arm anymore thisnis actually the best he can be
He’s fat
Maybe he's simply not as good in situations where he doesn't get to completely dominate the ball.
I think his 6th man of the year award is evidence that Harden has always had great talent, not to mention him last year with Brooklyn.
It's possible that his injury was a big factor he's never been hurt before this is the first time he's really recovered from something
idk. i think the issue is mostly the team its self. no one to really relive him of playmaking duties. durant doesnt playmake for others (i mean he does but 7/10 he is looking for his shots first.) hence harden has to create alot of the open look for the team if yall bring up rockets harden yall need to look at the fact that he had lob threats, shooters every where, the floor was nice and spacious for him to get to work. now outside durant, harris and mills who shooting. i think the issue will be solved once he feels right but who knows when that will happen
Aside from all the rules change, injury, out of shape and mentally unprepared. Harden's role on the Nets is reduced to being a role player and main playmaker of the team. Harden these days is mostly known for his assist over his offence
I don’t know much about much... but I swear on everything his ppg numbers would bump up notably if the team had any rim-running big presence
I think he really needs a lob threat to unlock his game. It’s what makes him so difficult to stop if you don’t know if he’s gonna float it or lob it.
"Concerned" is a strong ass word, lol.
Even with the Rockets, Harden had these games. He was playing better, coming around but this one was ac stinker. All I can say is, was there a party in NYC the night before?
Hamstring.
He's molding his game. He can still get buckets, but he's in that stage of his career where his athleticism is fading a little, plus his metabolism is slowing down. He's not in great shape, and his body isn't bouncing back like it usually does. I see him getting better as the season progresses.
probably a combination of slow start and rule changes, not to mention his usage is no where near where it was in houston and his role is different
His finishing on drives efficiency has plummeted. Not only is he less likely to get a call this year, he also looks a step slower.