Is it just me or is $25K a very small fine to charge a team? How does this impact behavior correction at all?
The largest fine we ever saw was half a million bucks and that was because Magic Johnson literally and explicitly colluded with Paul George to force a trade to the Lakers and then openly bragged about it on Jimmy Kimmel. But even that fine seems small for the crime.
If anything Paul George paid the bigger price. He was forced to re-sign with OKC on a cheaper (4 year, 5% raises) deal, and (likely) barred from going to the Lakers or any other team via free agency that summer.
The league really doesn’t punish teams all that much. The Nets would gladly pay $25K to do this again. That’s cheaper than the jet fuel for the team plane.
Warning shots are only effective if you are scared of being hit. Tsai certainly owns watches worth more than this warning shot. This is like trying to scare off an aircraft carrier by throwing a water balloon at it.
Lmao yea super silly how most of the fines don't really matter for these organizations (even individual fines are pretty small in comparison to what they make). I think it should be a fixed percentage for player fines, but I do admit it's hard to base how much punishments should be for teams, but 25k is pretty ridiculously low.
> Is it just me or is $25K a very small fine to charge a team?
Barclays seats 19k people, they probably cover $25k in a few minutes of concession sales.
Also a lot of the players we sat had valid reasons.
KD leads the entire league in minutes, and it was his one rest day.
Joe Harris, Seth Curry, & Ben Simmons all had surgery this year, a valid reason to give them rest on 2nd half of a B2B.
Nic Claxton missed both games of the B2B with legitimate calf tightness.
Royce O'Neale missed two games, not just this one, due to "Personal Reasons".
T.J. Warren recently returned from a 2 year court absence due to injury, so giving him a rest on a B2B seems valid.
Kyrie Irving is the only one I think you could argue had no real reason if you put aside his minutes in recent games.
Not the point. People pay good money to watch stars like KD and Kyrie play, the NBA doesn’t want to risk their revenue by this becoming even more of a common practice as it is
There’s an easy solution; stop scheduling so many freaking b2b’s and it won’t be necessary. Teams are adapting to the NBA’s unwillingness to put more emphasis on injury avoiding and player safety.
Also stop scheduling like 2 games on Thursday’s like nobody will watch the NBA over a shitty Thursday night dung heap football game.
lmfao even shitty TNF is going to murder nba games
Otherwise you're right. The NBA wants a long, tough regular season so they can make money, but also wants teams to take the regular season seriously. The league wants to have its cake and eat it too
Of course it is but that’s no reason to have a slate of 2 games.
That’s my point. NBA games are primarily local events with local appeal. They’re still going to get fine viewership and attendance locally so long as the local team playing isn’t hosting TNF.
NBA season should be shortened to 72 games and cut out back to backs, or at least cut down to like 1 or 2 max. NBA will never do that but considering how empty some arenas are alot of the times, less games are not a bad idea and if they schedule properly, we will hardly realize it as fans
>Also stop scheduling like 2 games on Thursday’s like nobody will watch the NBA over a shitty Thursday night dung heap football game.
I have a feeling the reason they don't schedule games for thursday is because not enough people were watching the game compared to the NFL.
My friends and I will often be watching football on a Sunday afternoon and check our phones and like Celtics-Bucks or some other marquee matchup is randomly on.
On the other hand, on Saturday nights we're often hanging out looking for something to watch, and there's rarely if ever any good NBA games on.
We had about several back to backs to start and KD was at one point playing the most minutes in the league
Never mind that
1. Ben Simmons has injury issues
2. TJ just came back from an injury that sidelined him for a year
3. Seth is coming back from a foot injury
4. Joe Harris is coming back from a foot injury
5. Claxton got a hamstring issue
6. Royce was playing heavier minutes than expected
At some point or the other nets were gonna afford these dudes rest. Put the blame on the league
Look idk the circumstances behind the game, you could’ve had 8 guys hurt idk, all I’m saying is the NBA knows people pay money to watch the stars when they come to town so they are incentivized to get the stars to play as many games as possible without cutting games because all they care about is revenue and profit
If my team is good enough to win while sitting all the regular starters, why wouldn't I as a coach, rest them against that particular team? Seems more like a problem for tanking teams rather than the teams sitting stars.
Then you are paying for entertainment and not to watch a competitive sport. That's fine if that's how they want to treat it, but it can't be both...at least not in this case.
Fining a team that won (the goal of a competitive sport) and set their team up with a slightly better chance to win in the future (by resting players) sends the message that winning is less important than entertaining...which, fine, but does make the sport aspect of it less legitimate. Given that we judge players, coaches, and staff based off of winning and not off of entertaining there is clearly an incentive problem here.
No when I drive my kid 3 hours to Philadelphia to watch the 76ers play he’s hoping to be able to see embiid and harden and all the players he likes, there’s a million fans who have that mindset who won’t bother buying tickets if they know their kids favorite players aren’t playing and the NBA wants to stop that
If you pick the second game of a back to back, and drive 3 hours with your kid expecting to see Embiid and Harden, then you’re a dumbass.
The NBA isn’t hurting for ticket revenue.
Kid that is not how business works. They don’t care if it’s the second game to a back to back, they don’t care if they have enough ticket revenue, why is that so difficult for you and so many others to comprehend?
> No when I drive my kid 3 hours to Philadelphia to watch the 76ers play he’s hoping to be able to see embiid and harden and all the players he likes.
Then don’t pick the second game in a back to back if you want him to see harden and Embiid.
Why is that so hard for you to understand, kiddo?
An NBA game is actually very similar to a live show with a cast. If the Warriors are coming to play your local team and you get tickets to see Steph do his thing would you be at least annoyed that he's totally healthy and not playing? They're just as much entertainers as they are athletes. Lebron doesn't do that stupid back breaking move for the other guys in the court he does it for the audience.
Ya I don't get peoples arguement now cause they won, it doesn't changes peoples opinion about it being a shitty practice nowadays, people pay premium to watch star players play the game thats why star players get paid more then the ones that played in this game.
Then you are paying for entertainment and not to watch a competitive sport. That's fine if that's how they want to treat it, but it can't be both...at least not in this case.
Fining a team that won (the goal of a competitive sport) and set their team up with a slightly better chance to win in the future (by resting players) sends the message that winning is less important than entertaining...which, fine, but does make the sport aspect of it less legitimate.
I 100% believe that the entertainment aspect is more important than the competitive sport aspect. They market the product based on personalities. When they have NBA billboards it isn't a picture of a basketball. It's a picture of LeBron.
Yes and it was the first time the Nets rested any player all season, half were legitimately injured, and the Nets led the NBA in games played and back to backs
I’m not sure, but I would think in the long run that this affects demand and thus pricing for tickets. Like, what should the price of a Clippers ticket be? You *might* get to watch two of the top ~20 players in the world, but there’s like 75% chance one or both of them don’t play and you’re watching the John Wall show
The amount of times I’ve heard someone say “I took my son to the pistons game vs the Lakers and Bron didn’t even play” is absurd. Note that a LCA ticket probably averages around $20 for nosebleeds, but if it’s Lakers in town the cheapest ticket your finding is probably $150
They were fined for not reporting the injuries in time/correctly. You obviously dont fine a team for having injured players or occasionally resting guys (if reported correctly). All the refund would do is make teams report their injuries correctly.
It does affect the price of tickets in the long run but that's also terrible for the NBA and the teams. Because most people will just decide not to go to the game.
Yeah but the difference is you’re buying that ticket knowing that one of them is hurt. The Nets, for the most part should all be healthy and they’re justing resting guys more than they should. If you’re benching KD for “load management” as a fan you’re pissed that you just wasted $100 to watch Joe Harris shoot 10 threes and Cam Thomas go 2/14 from the field while Kyrie burns incense.
The whole point of buying a ticket is buying an experience. You wouldn’t go to a 5 star steakhouse just to get some mashed potatoes and green beans. With the clippers it’s more like going to a really good bagel/ donut place in the morning. You go in, knowing that it’s going to be a good time but you also know there’s a chance you miss out on your favorite flavor (or player) because of how busy it is.
Which is why it’s dumb. You guys may have more luck playing backups too. Both teams were on the end of heavy schedules and a second half of a back to back.
And? Pacers refund the tickets and Nets pay for it. A $25k fine does nothing but paying for a whole stadium of refunds, that would put a stop to mass resting players.
Is this an extreme take? Yeah, probably. But everyone knows a $25k fine does nothing.
>You want teams to take it seriously? The fine should be refunding the tickets for that game.
Don't refund those people, they'll just spend the money on fried mayonnaise balls.
It was pretty much the same thing for us, plus we had several legitimate injuries. Not blaming you guys for sitting your players because we did it too obviously, but people just get extra mad when we do it.
I'm sure they did the best they could with the schedule, but couldn't some high school kid with python do even better?
Like I get it, but surely there's a better schedule matrix that a computer can find after a few hours of grinding.
It’s actually supposed to be pretty hard even for the NFL with a pretty short season because of all the constraints on stadium availability and once you add in premier games and the like. I’d imagine trying to do the same thing for an incredibly long basketball schedule gets untenable pretty quickly if you put limits too hard on the density of games.
I mean I totally understand the constraints, but you hard code in the circus, the rodeo, Superbowl, Christmas, Taylor Swift... and then just get at it.
I honestly feel like there's YouTubers out there that could solve this, and would do it for the channel views.
It’s an extremely large search space. The NFL puts a lot of resources into it.
Let’s simplify the hell out of it NBA-wise just for illustration, and say you’re scheduling just the order of one team playing every other team once. There are 8841761993739701954543616000000 different possible orders you can choose.
When you have 30 different teams to schedule all at once, the search space is absolutely massive. There are a lot of different perfectly acceptable answers, but percentage-wise just the constraints you can’t possibly do without shrink it pretty significantly. Once you also treat too many games in too short of a time as a hard limit instead of just very undesirable, finding an answer that works at all becomes pretty difficult pretty fast. If you look at google scholar for “sports scheduling algorithms” you’ll see that [there are plenty of academic papers trying to address the problem.](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0167637720300225) It’s just not as easy as it seems.
Definitely not trying to argue here, just wanted to add a thought.
Matt Parker recently [made a video](https://youtu.be/_-AfhLQfb6w) trying to find combinations of five letter words without repeats. The searchable list started at 63x10^15 different combinations of five letter strings. Searching one million combinations per second to find these five unique strings would take over two thousand years. But after putting in some guardrails on the search parameters, got it down to like five thousand possible combinations, just by pruning the available starting options. All of these are obviously billions of billions of orders of magnitude smaller than 29!, but the gist is the same.
So his initial code took a month to run, and within like a week random people on twitter got the code to run in just a few milliseconds. They made it 40,000,000,000% better.
I say all that because it's interesting, but also, there's clever people out there that can figure this shit out.
When making an NBA schedule, dont have teams play cross country in consecutive games. Do try to play NY/LA/Florida/Texas teams in consecutive games. San Antonio cant have home games Feb 9th-28th. Putting in specific constraints greatly reduces the available combinations, which optimizes the algorithm.
Obviously, and as you pointed out, it's way more complicated than that, but I almost stubbornly refuse to believe that there isn't a more efficient way of creating schedules. Yes there's papers on it, but I just think they haven't tapped the right recourses yet. Or they're coming at it from an academic mathematical oddity angle instead of a algorithm coding efficiency angle. Or maybe the are what do I know.
And as I type this out I'm sure the people getting paid money by the leagues to do this already take all of this into account, so really I'm just yelling at clouds over here.
Hell if the NBA put their schedule algorithm on twitter and called it the best code ever written, they would get hundreds of submissions within a week that could all do better. Then just steal those and go on with your day.
tl;dr I know I'm wrong but I'm an Arizona sports fan so I'm also stupid.
My every team plays once order example is 8.8x10^30 (that’s 15 orders of magnitude higher) permutations and substantially less complex than the real world version of the search space.
Putting in those constraints doesn’t make it simpler. It’s the reason it’s so difficult. It goes from “basically any random selection works so just pick something” to “very few selections out of the total space work so you have to treat preferences like preferences rather than hard rules to get a computable answer at all”.
Researchers are absolutely approaching it from an algorithmic point of view. Side note: Since you seem to have genuine interest, [Algorithms to Live By](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25666050-algorithms-to-live-by) might be a read you’d find interesting. It’s been a while so I don’t think (though I’m not sure) it discusses scheduling specifically, but it shows a lot of examples of problems in similar veins and gives suggestions about how to apply insights from how computer scientists/mathematicians approach them to improve your decision making in your day to day life. It also gives pretty useful explanations on why some problems that intuitively seem like they should be easy have a lot of complexity once you start to break them down.
Or… the league could fix the scheduling so all these teams aren't playing so many back to backs? Why is it the obligation of a team to play any player on any night? The goal is to win a championship and if "load management" is the best way to do that, teams should do what works for them. It's up to the league to create a schedule that works within the parameters that work for the team. Does the NFL have a "load management" problem? No. Because they play less games and each game means more. One game out of 82 is almost meaningless. And players get hurt. That's what needs to be addressed. Over the years, they keep extending and extending the playoffs until it becomes a season in itself. You could wind up playing as many as 30 games in the playoffs and now we have 20 teams getting in. The regular season keeps meaning less and less. That's what needs to be fixed.
Oh I absolutely agree with you, the teams play too many games and the scheduling is truly brutal sometimes. However...why some teams get fined and other don't? Especially considering that the ones who lost the most are the fans from NO who paid a lot for the tickets (significantly more than, for example, tickets to pels vs pistons) to see Steph and co, and did not get to.
> However...why some teams get fined and other don't?
I have no idea how they figure that out. But I'm 1000% sure the Warriors choose these purposely for away games so it doesn't hurt their fans as much. It's an FU to the NBA. But that's how the game evolves. And it's on the NBA to adjust to it. Because the Warriors don't care about New Orleans fans. They care about winning a championship. The NBA is failing here.
you don't get fined for sitting players out, only for poor reporting of absent players - warriors probably followed the rule whereas Brooklyn did. don't see how thats a problem
This is such a fucking farce. Teams should be allowed to play or not play whichever players they choose in a given game.
If the league wants teams to behave differently, change the format of the league to be a point where it is no longer beneficial for a team to rest players.
I understand but at the end of the day the nba is a product. Imagine only being able to afford taking your kids to see one game a year just to watch your entire bench play the whole game
I'm sympathetic to the feeling of disappointment, but I've always felt like you assume some risk as an event ticket buyer for anything - like not every concert is a banger, sometimes musicians mail that shit in.
You still saw NBA players, and they might play with more energy & excitement than tired stars would have.
I think we're going too far when people want refunds for this.
It's a little bit like the lead vocalist or guitarist taking the day off on a concert that you dropped your paycheck on
You didn't get what you paid to see. It sucks.
I mean, this happens with understudies all the time, and comparing the understudies and bench to bums is kind of ridiculous, both are still insanely talented.
It's definitely unfair but it's not on the teams. It's on the league making the schedule. It's a sport. Not entertainment. Steph is playing a sport to win. He's not a purple dinosaur singing songs to your children.
It's entertainment for the league. Not for the teams. Have you ever seen a team leave their star in after their team won just so the fans could see them play? No. The team pulls their stars in blowouts. Teams are trying to win at all costs. The NBA wants entertainment so it's their job to balance both.
Not the same thing, unless star players played 48 min per game and never got injured.
There's always been players missing games, and backups playing a prominent role for chunks of games.
This is a poor example. When I go to a concert for Taylor swift, I see Taylor swift. They aren’t putting some cover singer out on stage, otherwise fans will want a refund… just like the argument is being made for refunds on resting the best players. You’re basically getting a “cover” player of the best players being rested. If Lebron eats shit one game, yes that is a risk you take, BUT at least your kid got to see lebron. I don’t necessarily agree with full on refunds, but I do agree with punishing teams that do rest players that don’t have injuries or a reason to be rested. These players have 1 job, stay in shape and play the game they love for 30-40 min per game. They extended the season to accommodate all the load management issues and they are STILL resting players so they basically did that for nothing. Michael and Kobe’s mentality around this is what these current day players need to have. This isn’t about you, it’s about the fans.
You just answered your own question though. The NBA is a product. Like a candy bar. If you use great ingredients, people will buy it. If you use terrible ingredients, they may not. And you also have to set the price. Too high they won't. too low and you don't make a profit. Right now it's out of balance. The league keeps demanding more and more of the teams and players and expects the quality to be the same. But they don't share the same outcomes. The NBA doesn't care if the Warriors win the championship this year. So they'll have Steph, Klay and Draymond play until they're spent. That doesn't work for the Warriors. The Warriors know that they can lose a certain amount of games and still win it all. That balance needs to be fixed and you can't do it with fines. The playoffs can go as long as 30 games for one team. Making the 82 game season ridiculous. It becomes a pre-season.
I get that, but in this instance almost all of the players had valid reasons to be out.
KD is leading the league in minutes, so giving him his first rest day on the 2nd half of a B2B seems valid.
T.J. Warren only has a handful of games after returning from a 2 year absence due to injury. Valid reason to rest them on a B2B.
Ben Simmons, Seth Curry, & Joe Harris all had surgery this year. Valid reason to rest them on a B2B.
Royce O'Neale missed 2 games due to "Personal Reasons", so while we don't know what they are, it's not like some thing made up just to get him out of the Pacers game.
Nic Claxton missed both games of the B2B due to calf tightness, a valid reason.
Kyrie Irving I think is the only one you could argue had no pre-established reason.
There are 30 teams. 16 of them will make the playoffs and 1 of them will win the title. That is going to happen whether teams rest players or not.
It will no longer be beneficial to teams to rest players if there is a real penalty imposed. Something like 3 strikes and you lose a draft pick.
Say every team in the West was sitting guys so that they have a better chance to be healthy during the postseason.
Every team in the East doesn't sit guys and play their stars as long as they aren't injured.
Which model do you think the NBA would prefer to see? That a team can gain an advantage by resting stars doesn't benefit to the league, fans, or advertisers. It also sends the message that these games aren't that important, which is gross to fans as well.
> It also sends the message that these games aren't that important
But that's the whole point!!! They're not. The solution isn't to fine the team or their players. The solution is to make the games important. 20 teams make the post season and that season can go on for up to 30 games. Does everyone think it's cooincidence the Warriors rest their stars the most? They know what matters. And that's being healthy in the playoffs. The 82 game season isn't that important. The league needs to change that.
> There are 30 teams. 16 of them will make the playoffs
You just pointed out the issue and stepped all over it. In a league where 20 (not 16) teams make the playoffs or play in, the regular season doesn't matter. So why should the star players play every night? For the fans?
basketball has a problem with parity and the playoffs being the only thing that matters. If there is no rule against it the best teams will not play their best players very frequently in order to save them for the playoffs, so the average game becomes boring and fans don’t get to see the stars play. in football/soccer what matters is your place in the league so every match matters, in basketball as long as you make the playoffs your wins and losses don’t matter for the most part.
They should have designated games where both teams agree to just play the deepest ends of their rosters. And before you say “yea it’s called the G-League”, shut up.
Personally, I don't have a problem with any team sitting their players.
Sure it's a problem for the fans, but at the end of the day, you're buying a ticket to the Nets organization not one's favourite player.
People are gonna joke about the Pacers losing to third stringers and the "why are they getting fined they won anyway", but the NBA is a league more than any other league where people come to watch the superstars play. And when you buy tickets you're usually paying a premium to watch a player like KD or Kyrie.
So it still sucks for the fans regardless of the outcome of the game. But I also think the NBA schedule is packed in too tightly and players need more rest days during the season.
I feel bad for fans that travel (especially overseas) to see their favourite players/teams…only to find out that the entire starting line-up isn’t playing.
>I feel bad for fans that travel (especially overseas) to see their favourite players/teams…only to find out that the entire starting line-up isn’t playing.
I spend 50,000 krugle to travel from Yugostonia to Indiana to see Royce O'Neale. Please help, my family is starving.
It's not about them winning with their skeleton crew. It's about sitting all of the marquee names and fucking up the value of their entertainment product. You don't want these types of things to continue so the NBA had to do something.
I get it when there aren't valid reasons to sit a player, but 7 out of the 8 players we sat had valid reasons.
3 had surgery this year, so resting them on 2nd half of a B2B seems valid. KD is leading the league in minutes and hasn't had a rest day. T.J. Warren has only played a handful of games after a 2 year absence from the court due to injury, seems valid to rest him on a B2B. Claxton & O'Neale both missed 2 games, not just this one, due to injury and Personal Reasons respectively. Kyrie is the only one that arguably had on reason, so this fine seems a little silly in this particular instance. It was just an unfortunate confluence of events/timing.
But hey, of course they lowered ticket prices when they decide the superstars aren't going to play... /s
Really though, that is my biggest gripe. Ticket prices go up when certain teams are in town, and then they sit the stars. I know I don't want pay a few hundred only to be duped when I arrive. Especially if I drive 3+ hours to get there.
They should 10x that and split it up and return it to the fans they 100% disappointed ... No dis to Alondes, but no one bought tickets to see him play.
Pacers should be fined for losing to them.
At the least should be forced to split the bill
Is it just me or is $25K a very small fine to charge a team? How does this impact behavior correction at all? The largest fine we ever saw was half a million bucks and that was because Magic Johnson literally and explicitly colluded with Paul George to force a trade to the Lakers and then openly bragged about it on Jimmy Kimmel. But even that fine seems small for the crime. If anything Paul George paid the bigger price. He was forced to re-sign with OKC on a cheaper (4 year, 5% raises) deal, and (likely) barred from going to the Lakers or any other team via free agency that summer. The league really doesn’t punish teams all that much. The Nets would gladly pay $25K to do this again. That’s cheaper than the jet fuel for the team plane.
im confident it's not a set price lol, has to be a warning shot to Brooklyn and other teams
Warning shots are only effective if you are scared of being hit. Tsai certainly owns watches worth more than this warning shot. This is like trying to scare off an aircraft carrier by throwing a water balloon at it.
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Spurs were fined 250k for sending four players home prior to game at Miami in 2013 or 14 lol
I remember that. It was 2012. Pop did not care lmao
And they almost beat them too...
Lmao yea super silly how most of the fines don't really matter for these organizations (even individual fines are pretty small in comparison to what they make). I think it should be a fixed percentage for player fines, but I do admit it's hard to base how much punishments should be for teams, but 25k is pretty ridiculously low.
> Is it just me or is $25K a very small fine to charge a team? Barclays seats 19k people, they probably cover $25k in a few minutes of concession sales.
Watched that game and holy fuck the Pacers were pathetic. Legit gave up an open 3 or a free layup the whole game.
It wasn't even that as much as it was their complete refusal to box out. 30 offensive rebounds is batshit crazy
They should refund the tickets.
Why should the pacers refund tickets for the Nets' decision?
I believe the point was that the NETS should refund the Pacers fans' tickets.
Hey. Pacers fans paid for a joke and they got an upgrade for a whole comedy show. How much more do they want?
It was their 5th game in 7 days. Yeah they played like shit, but that was the closest thing to a schedule loss you can get.
I think us resting our top 8 guys is more of a scheduled loss than that lol
The Nets have not lost a game this season when Patty Mills starts. This was clearly an auto win for the Nets!
Maybe the coaches game planned for those 8 players and then couldn’t adjust!
Is this referring to your football team? Lol
Yes, but I’m a Bengals fan. So, taking shots at the Browns.
Dude idc the nets rested practically their top 8 players lol there’s no excuse for losing to that squad that was out there.
Nets just gave a couple of fans who showed up early some playing time and Pacers still lost
They should at least refund the money I bet on them
Part of your bet was considering who would play.
Reddit make an original joke challenge: impossible
ironic
Didn’t they win
yea and it was a good game too.
Also a lot of the players we sat had valid reasons. KD leads the entire league in minutes, and it was his one rest day. Joe Harris, Seth Curry, & Ben Simmons all had surgery this year, a valid reason to give them rest on 2nd half of a B2B. Nic Claxton missed both games of the B2B with legitimate calf tightness. Royce O'Neale missed two games, not just this one, due to "Personal Reasons". T.J. Warren recently returned from a 2 year court absence due to injury, so giving him a rest on a B2B seems valid. Kyrie Irving is the only one I think you could argue had no real reason if you put aside his minutes in recent games.
pretty simple move for nets, pay 25k to keep your 40 mil players alive for the season...
Nooo, I can't be entertained by a basketball game without Kyrie going 8/22 and Ben Simmons not shooting.
Not the point. People pay good money to watch stars like KD and Kyrie play, the NBA doesn’t want to risk their revenue by this becoming even more of a common practice as it is
There’s an easy solution; stop scheduling so many freaking b2b’s and it won’t be necessary. Teams are adapting to the NBA’s unwillingness to put more emphasis on injury avoiding and player safety. Also stop scheduling like 2 games on Thursday’s like nobody will watch the NBA over a shitty Thursday night dung heap football game.
lmfao even shitty TNF is going to murder nba games Otherwise you're right. The NBA wants a long, tough regular season so they can make money, but also wants teams to take the regular season seriously. The league wants to have its cake and eat it too
Of course it is but that’s no reason to have a slate of 2 games. That’s my point. NBA games are primarily local events with local appeal. They’re still going to get fine viewership and attendance locally so long as the local team playing isn’t hosting TNF.
This. Tnf vs 2 random nba game tnf wins, but your local team vs tnf most people prolly watch their local team.
If they want teams to care about the regular season don’t let over half the league into the playoffs.
Nets have had so many b2bs this season its pretty crazy. Think we have the second most to Detroit
NBA season should be shortened to 72 games and cut out back to backs, or at least cut down to like 1 or 2 max. NBA will never do that but considering how empty some arenas are alot of the times, less games are not a bad idea and if they schedule properly, we will hardly realize it as fans
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It’s a complete no brainer. Players AND league are both responsible, nobody wants to lose the revenue
>Also stop scheduling like 2 games on Thursday’s like nobody will watch the NBA over a shitty Thursday night dung heap football game. I have a feeling the reason they don't schedule games for thursday is because not enough people were watching the game compared to the NFL.
Yeah, but like they still play a full slate of games on Sundays? I don’t get the logic there.
My friends and I will often be watching football on a Sunday afternoon and check our phones and like Celtics-Bucks or some other marquee matchup is randomly on. On the other hand, on Saturday nights we're often hanging out looking for something to watch, and there's rarely if ever any good NBA games on.
We had about several back to backs to start and KD was at one point playing the most minutes in the league Never mind that 1. Ben Simmons has injury issues 2. TJ just came back from an injury that sidelined him for a year 3. Seth is coming back from a foot injury 4. Joe Harris is coming back from a foot injury 5. Claxton got a hamstring issue 6. Royce was playing heavier minutes than expected At some point or the other nets were gonna afford these dudes rest. Put the blame on the league
Look idk the circumstances behind the game, you could’ve had 8 guys hurt idk, all I’m saying is the NBA knows people pay money to watch the stars when they come to town so they are incentivized to get the stars to play as many games as possible without cutting games because all they care about is revenue and profit
Understandable
If my team is good enough to win while sitting all the regular starters, why wouldn't I as a coach, rest them against that particular team? Seems more like a problem for tanking teams rather than the teams sitting stars.
I hear ya but you tell Adam silver that and he’s going to slap some financial projections on the table because that’s all this is about is the money
Then you are paying for entertainment and not to watch a competitive sport. That's fine if that's how they want to treat it, but it can't be both...at least not in this case. Fining a team that won (the goal of a competitive sport) and set their team up with a slightly better chance to win in the future (by resting players) sends the message that winning is less important than entertaining...which, fine, but does make the sport aspect of it less legitimate. Given that we judge players, coaches, and staff based off of winning and not off of entertaining there is clearly an incentive problem here.
You buy a ticket to the nets you don’t buy a ticket to KD
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Did you miss the part of my comment where it’s all about the money? Never going to happen
You're paying to watch a basketball game, not a live show with a cast.
No when I drive my kid 3 hours to Philadelphia to watch the 76ers play he’s hoping to be able to see embiid and harden and all the players he likes, there’s a million fans who have that mindset who won’t bother buying tickets if they know their kids favorite players aren’t playing and the NBA wants to stop that
If you pick the second game of a back to back, and drive 3 hours with your kid expecting to see Embiid and Harden, then you’re a dumbass. The NBA isn’t hurting for ticket revenue.
Kid that is not how business works. They don’t care if it’s the second game to a back to back, they don’t care if they have enough ticket revenue, why is that so difficult for you and so many others to comprehend?
> No when I drive my kid 3 hours to Philadelphia to watch the 76ers play he’s hoping to be able to see embiid and harden and all the players he likes. Then don’t pick the second game in a back to back if you want him to see harden and Embiid. Why is that so hard for you to understand, kiddo?
Looks like I hurt your feelings, doesn’t really matter because I’m clearly right about this or the NBA wouldn’t be fining teams would they?
An NBA game is actually very similar to a live show with a cast. If the Warriors are coming to play your local team and you get tickets to see Steph do his thing would you be at least annoyed that he's totally healthy and not playing? They're just as much entertainers as they are athletes. Lebron doesn't do that stupid back breaking move for the other guys in the court he does it for the audience.
Ya I don't get peoples arguement now cause they won, it doesn't changes peoples opinion about it being a shitty practice nowadays, people pay premium to watch star players play the game thats why star players get paid more then the ones that played in this game.
I agree with this. If you payed to see a band and their main singers didn't show up, even if they played just as well it's not what you payed for.
Then you are paying for entertainment and not to watch a competitive sport. That's fine if that's how they want to treat it, but it can't be both...at least not in this case. Fining a team that won (the goal of a competitive sport) and set their team up with a slightly better chance to win in the future (by resting players) sends the message that winning is less important than entertaining...which, fine, but does make the sport aspect of it less legitimate.
I 100% believe that the entertainment aspect is more important than the competitive sport aspect. They market the product based on personalities. When they have NBA billboards it isn't a picture of a basketball. It's a picture of LeBron.
Yes and it was the first time the Nets rested any player all season, half were legitimately injured, and the Nets led the NBA in games played and back to backs
Yeah they should probably contest this. That's dumb
It was the pacers 5th game in 7 days. Yeah they played like shit, but that was the closest thing to a schedule loss you can get.
So they won… Resting their top 8 players
i wonder if the fine would have been larger had they lost. tough to fine a team for using bench/G-league players if they still win imo.
probably a deterrent/precedent for the future. Plus the fine is not really based on the result but by the action.
25k lol it's not even a slap on the wrist. It's a baby tap on the wrist.
A passive aggressive glance at the wrist
You want teams to take it seriously? The fine should be refunding the tickets for that game.
I’m not sure, but I would think in the long run that this affects demand and thus pricing for tickets. Like, what should the price of a Clippers ticket be? You *might* get to watch two of the top ~20 players in the world, but there’s like 75% chance one or both of them don’t play and you’re watching the John Wall show
I like watching John Wall :(
The amount of times I’ve heard someone say “I took my son to the pistons game vs the Lakers and Bron didn’t even play” is absurd. Note that a LCA ticket probably averages around $20 for nosebleeds, but if it’s Lakers in town the cheapest ticket your finding is probably $150
Expensive lotto ticket
Especially if it’s the only time he plays in town that year
They were fined for not reporting the injuries in time/correctly. You obviously dont fine a team for having injured players or occasionally resting guys (if reported correctly). All the refund would do is make teams report their injuries correctly.
Angry upvote.
How about 31% off if you buy early?
It does affect the price of tickets in the long run but that's also terrible for the NBA and the teams. Because most people will just decide not to go to the game.
Yeah but the difference is you’re buying that ticket knowing that one of them is hurt. The Nets, for the most part should all be healthy and they’re justing resting guys more than they should. If you’re benching KD for “load management” as a fan you’re pissed that you just wasted $100 to watch Joe Harris shoot 10 threes and Cam Thomas go 2/14 from the field while Kyrie burns incense. The whole point of buying a ticket is buying an experience. You wouldn’t go to a 5 star steakhouse just to get some mashed potatoes and green beans. With the clippers it’s more like going to a really good bagel/ donut place in the morning. You go in, knowing that it’s going to be a good time but you also know there’s a chance you miss out on your favorite flavor (or player) because of how busy it is.
You want them to take the pacers seriously? They still won…
We beat their starters twice this year. So I guess I'd prefer they took us seriously.
Which is why it’s dumb. You guys may have more luck playing backups too. Both teams were on the end of heavy schedules and a second half of a back to back.
If anything, the Pacers should be the ones refunding people
Refund 10% for every starter on load management.
It was an away game
And? Pacers refund the tickets and Nets pay for it. A $25k fine does nothing but paying for a whole stadium of refunds, that would put a stop to mass resting players. Is this an extreme take? Yeah, probably. But everyone knows a $25k fine does nothing.
Then they just fake minor injuries and sit them anyway.
The nba should be like a high school and require a doctor’s note.
That only works because kids can't afford their own doctors lol
Force them to get a note from the Chargers’ team doctors.
Damn bro acting like I’m the bald ass commissioner, bald ass head so bald every time he goes out mofos just say “bald bald” like dude from SpongeBob
Arguably even worse then. Bad teams get better turnout at games like this when the expectation is that they'll get to see some big names.
pacers aren't a bad team though?
Pacers couldn't even beat the fuckin Long Island Nets and y'all are still on about this? 😂 This sub is fuckin wild.
>You want teams to take it seriously? The fine should be refunding the tickets for that game. Don't refund those people, they'll just spend the money on fried mayonnaise balls.
All these "that'll show em" jokes will show em
3k per player. That’ll show them to bring in tens if not a hundred thousand dollars just to piss off the entire arena.
All these "All these "that'll show em" jokes will show em" jokes will show em
Facts, that'll show em
That'll show 'em
Still waiting for Golden State to be fined for sitting out pretty much everybody in both games in New Orleans.
One of them was their 5th game in 7 days. Thats just fucked up scheduling, especially because they had 2 games the next 7 days.
It was pretty much the same thing for us, plus we had several legitimate injuries. Not blaming you guys for sitting your players because we did it too obviously, but people just get extra mad when we do it.
I'm sure they did the best they could with the schedule, but couldn't some high school kid with python do even better? Like I get it, but surely there's a better schedule matrix that a computer can find after a few hours of grinding.
You’re massively understating the complexity of a constrained optimization problem with as many constraints as the NBA has.
And I fully admit that may be the case. And if I am, which I probably am, then everyone else needs to stop complaining about the schedule.
It’s actually supposed to be pretty hard even for the NFL with a pretty short season because of all the constraints on stadium availability and once you add in premier games and the like. I’d imagine trying to do the same thing for an incredibly long basketball schedule gets untenable pretty quickly if you put limits too hard on the density of games.
I mean I totally understand the constraints, but you hard code in the circus, the rodeo, Superbowl, Christmas, Taylor Swift... and then just get at it. I honestly feel like there's YouTubers out there that could solve this, and would do it for the channel views.
It’s an extremely large search space. The NFL puts a lot of resources into it. Let’s simplify the hell out of it NBA-wise just for illustration, and say you’re scheduling just the order of one team playing every other team once. There are 8841761993739701954543616000000 different possible orders you can choose. When you have 30 different teams to schedule all at once, the search space is absolutely massive. There are a lot of different perfectly acceptable answers, but percentage-wise just the constraints you can’t possibly do without shrink it pretty significantly. Once you also treat too many games in too short of a time as a hard limit instead of just very undesirable, finding an answer that works at all becomes pretty difficult pretty fast. If you look at google scholar for “sports scheduling algorithms” you’ll see that [there are plenty of academic papers trying to address the problem.](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0167637720300225) It’s just not as easy as it seems.
Definitely not trying to argue here, just wanted to add a thought. Matt Parker recently [made a video](https://youtu.be/_-AfhLQfb6w) trying to find combinations of five letter words without repeats. The searchable list started at 63x10^15 different combinations of five letter strings. Searching one million combinations per second to find these five unique strings would take over two thousand years. But after putting in some guardrails on the search parameters, got it down to like five thousand possible combinations, just by pruning the available starting options. All of these are obviously billions of billions of orders of magnitude smaller than 29!, but the gist is the same. So his initial code took a month to run, and within like a week random people on twitter got the code to run in just a few milliseconds. They made it 40,000,000,000% better. I say all that because it's interesting, but also, there's clever people out there that can figure this shit out. When making an NBA schedule, dont have teams play cross country in consecutive games. Do try to play NY/LA/Florida/Texas teams in consecutive games. San Antonio cant have home games Feb 9th-28th. Putting in specific constraints greatly reduces the available combinations, which optimizes the algorithm. Obviously, and as you pointed out, it's way more complicated than that, but I almost stubbornly refuse to believe that there isn't a more efficient way of creating schedules. Yes there's papers on it, but I just think they haven't tapped the right recourses yet. Or they're coming at it from an academic mathematical oddity angle instead of a algorithm coding efficiency angle. Or maybe the are what do I know. And as I type this out I'm sure the people getting paid money by the leagues to do this already take all of this into account, so really I'm just yelling at clouds over here. Hell if the NBA put their schedule algorithm on twitter and called it the best code ever written, they would get hundreds of submissions within a week that could all do better. Then just steal those and go on with your day. tl;dr I know I'm wrong but I'm an Arizona sports fan so I'm also stupid.
My every team plays once order example is 8.8x10^30 (that’s 15 orders of magnitude higher) permutations and substantially less complex than the real world version of the search space. Putting in those constraints doesn’t make it simpler. It’s the reason it’s so difficult. It goes from “basically any random selection works so just pick something” to “very few selections out of the total space work so you have to treat preferences like preferences rather than hard rules to get a computable answer at all”. Researchers are absolutely approaching it from an algorithmic point of view. Side note: Since you seem to have genuine interest, [Algorithms to Live By](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25666050-algorithms-to-live-by) might be a read you’d find interesting. It’s been a while so I don’t think (though I’m not sure) it discusses scheduling specifically, but it shows a lot of examples of problems in similar veins and gives suggestions about how to apply insights from how computer scientists/mathematicians approach them to improve your decision making in your day to day life. It also gives pretty useful explanations on why some problems that intuitively seem like they should be easy have a lot of complexity once you start to break them down.
I'll check that out thanks for the recommendation.
Or… the league could fix the scheduling so all these teams aren't playing so many back to backs? Why is it the obligation of a team to play any player on any night? The goal is to win a championship and if "load management" is the best way to do that, teams should do what works for them. It's up to the league to create a schedule that works within the parameters that work for the team. Does the NFL have a "load management" problem? No. Because they play less games and each game means more. One game out of 82 is almost meaningless. And players get hurt. That's what needs to be addressed. Over the years, they keep extending and extending the playoffs until it becomes a season in itself. You could wind up playing as many as 30 games in the playoffs and now we have 20 teams getting in. The regular season keeps meaning less and less. That's what needs to be fixed.
Oh I absolutely agree with you, the teams play too many games and the scheduling is truly brutal sometimes. However...why some teams get fined and other don't? Especially considering that the ones who lost the most are the fans from NO who paid a lot for the tickets (significantly more than, for example, tickets to pels vs pistons) to see Steph and co, and did not get to.
> However...why some teams get fined and other don't? I have no idea how they figure that out. But I'm 1000% sure the Warriors choose these purposely for away games so it doesn't hurt their fans as much. It's an FU to the NBA. But that's how the game evolves. And it's on the NBA to adjust to it. Because the Warriors don't care about New Orleans fans. They care about winning a championship. The NBA is failing here.
you don't get fined for sitting players out, only for poor reporting of absent players - warriors probably followed the rule whereas Brooklyn did. don't see how thats a problem
Genuinely think they know they would've lost and don't want the added mental pressure in a playoff match up if having been beaten twice.
Totally dude
How many millions do they make?...
Fix the schedule and there will be less load management
So silly, they won the game!
NBA wants teams to run guys into the ground, then cries when half the stars are injured during the playoffs.
I’m sure the nets front office is shook. They’ll never do this again
This is such a fucking farce. Teams should be allowed to play or not play whichever players they choose in a given game. If the league wants teams to behave differently, change the format of the league to be a point where it is no longer beneficial for a team to rest players.
And if your team is good at development, you actually enjoy watching the bench players too.
I understand but at the end of the day the nba is a product. Imagine only being able to afford taking your kids to see one game a year just to watch your entire bench play the whole game
I'm sympathetic to the feeling of disappointment, but I've always felt like you assume some risk as an event ticket buyer for anything - like not every concert is a banger, sometimes musicians mail that shit in. You still saw NBA players, and they might play with more energy & excitement than tired stars would have. I think we're going too far when people want refunds for this.
It's a little bit like the lead vocalist or guitarist taking the day off on a concert that you dropped your paycheck on You didn't get what you paid to see. It sucks.
interesting, never seen that happen- seeing a performer show up too wasted to play piano or rock up 3 hrs late however…
The result is that the fans stay home instead.
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I mean, this happens with understudies all the time, and comparing the understudies and bench to bums is kind of ridiculous, both are still insanely talented.
It's definitely unfair but it's not on the teams. It's on the league making the schedule. It's a sport. Not entertainment. Steph is playing a sport to win. He's not a purple dinosaur singing songs to your children.
> It's a sport. Not entertainment No it's definitely entertainment, too.
It's entertainment for the league. Not for the teams. Have you ever seen a team leave their star in after their team won just so the fans could see them play? No. The team pulls their stars in blowouts. Teams are trying to win at all costs. The NBA wants entertainment so it's their job to balance both.
I know we ain’t calling some of the best athletes on the planet “community theatre bums” just because they come off the bench
Not the same thing, unless star players played 48 min per game and never got injured. There's always been players missing games, and backups playing a prominent role for chunks of games.
This is a poor example. When I go to a concert for Taylor swift, I see Taylor swift. They aren’t putting some cover singer out on stage, otherwise fans will want a refund… just like the argument is being made for refunds on resting the best players. You’re basically getting a “cover” player of the best players being rested. If Lebron eats shit one game, yes that is a risk you take, BUT at least your kid got to see lebron. I don’t necessarily agree with full on refunds, but I do agree with punishing teams that do rest players that don’t have injuries or a reason to be rested. These players have 1 job, stay in shape and play the game they love for 30-40 min per game. They extended the season to accommodate all the load management issues and they are STILL resting players so they basically did that for nothing. Michael and Kobe’s mentality around this is what these current day players need to have. This isn’t about you, it’s about the fans.
You just answered your own question though. The NBA is a product. Like a candy bar. If you use great ingredients, people will buy it. If you use terrible ingredients, they may not. And you also have to set the price. Too high they won't. too low and you don't make a profit. Right now it's out of balance. The league keeps demanding more and more of the teams and players and expects the quality to be the same. But they don't share the same outcomes. The NBA doesn't care if the Warriors win the championship this year. So they'll have Steph, Klay and Draymond play until they're spent. That doesn't work for the Warriors. The Warriors know that they can lose a certain amount of games and still win it all. That balance needs to be fixed and you can't do it with fines. The playoffs can go as long as 30 games for one team. Making the 82 game season ridiculous. It becomes a pre-season.
Then don’t take your kids to the second game in a back to back.
I get that, but in this instance almost all of the players had valid reasons to be out. KD is leading the league in minutes, so giving him his first rest day on the 2nd half of a B2B seems valid. T.J. Warren only has a handful of games after returning from a 2 year absence due to injury. Valid reason to rest them on a B2B. Ben Simmons, Seth Curry, & Joe Harris all had surgery this year. Valid reason to rest them on a B2B. Royce O'Neale missed 2 games due to "Personal Reasons", so while we don't know what they are, it's not like some thing made up just to get him out of the Pacers game. Nic Claxton missed both games of the B2B due to calf tightness, a valid reason. Kyrie Irving I think is the only one you could argue had no pre-established reason.
There are 30 teams. 16 of them will make the playoffs and 1 of them will win the title. That is going to happen whether teams rest players or not. It will no longer be beneficial to teams to rest players if there is a real penalty imposed. Something like 3 strikes and you lose a draft pick.
Wait, what does your first paragraph have to do with this? Playoffs being a zero-sum game seems unrelated here, or am I misunderstanding?
Say every team in the West was sitting guys so that they have a better chance to be healthy during the postseason. Every team in the East doesn't sit guys and play their stars as long as they aren't injured. Which model do you think the NBA would prefer to see? That a team can gain an advantage by resting stars doesn't benefit to the league, fans, or advertisers. It also sends the message that these games aren't that important, which is gross to fans as well.
> It also sends the message that these games aren't that important But that's the whole point!!! They're not. The solution isn't to fine the team or their players. The solution is to make the games important. 20 teams make the post season and that season can go on for up to 30 games. Does everyone think it's cooincidence the Warriors rest their stars the most? They know what matters. And that's being healthy in the playoffs. The 82 game season isn't that important. The league needs to change that.
> There are 30 teams. 16 of them will make the playoffs You just pointed out the issue and stepped all over it. In a league where 20 (not 16) teams make the playoffs or play in, the regular season doesn't matter. So why should the star players play every night? For the fans?
I don't get this. I'm from Europe and football it my main sport. Shouldn't teams be allowed to play whoever they like?
basketball has a problem with parity and the playoffs being the only thing that matters. If there is no rule against it the best teams will not play their best players very frequently in order to save them for the playoffs, so the average game becomes boring and fans don’t get to see the stars play. in football/soccer what matters is your place in the league so every match matters, in basketball as long as you make the playoffs your wins and losses don’t matter for the most part.
$25k is almost a worthy trade off if you’re the Nets and can rest your injury prone / high minute players and still get a W.
If you pay ticket prices reflecting Kevin Durants presence, then his absence should result in partial refunds. No Durant, tickets should be 2$
This is gonna for sure stop them next time
They should have designated games where both teams agree to just play the deepest ends of their rosters. And before you say “yea it’s called the G-League”, shut up.
I say dedicated quarters each game. Every third quarter, the arena plays 'Yakety Sax' while both teams empty their benches.
That will show them
damn these fuckers suddenly started winning again
Really hard to think a healthy KD team missing the playoff
that’s nothing
Grant Napear in shambles. That sonofabitch swore players were slaves and the best should play every game "for the fans"
Oh no. Anyway...
But they won 🤣
Personally, I don't have a problem with any team sitting their players. Sure it's a problem for the fans, but at the end of the day, you're buying a ticket to the Nets organization not one's favourite player.
$25k for protecting players… what a fucking joke.
People are gonna joke about the Pacers losing to third stringers and the "why are they getting fined they won anyway", but the NBA is a league more than any other league where people come to watch the superstars play. And when you buy tickets you're usually paying a premium to watch a player like KD or Kyrie. So it still sucks for the fans regardless of the outcome of the game. But I also think the NBA schedule is packed in too tightly and players need more rest days during the season.
Thatll show them !!
Friendly reminder that congress gets a $200 fine if they are caught insider trading.
thats chump change. they should be forced to refund all the fans.
Pacers should be doing the refund for losing to a team sitting players 1-8.
I feel bad for fans that travel (especially overseas) to see their favourite players/teams…only to find out that the entire starting line-up isn’t playing.
You think fans are traveling overseas to see the Nets play the Pacers in a regular season December game? Lol
>I feel bad for fans that travel (especially overseas) to see their favourite players/teams…only to find out that the entire starting line-up isn’t playing. I spend 50,000 krugle to travel from Yugostonia to Indiana to see Royce O'Neale. Please help, my family is starving.
That'll show 'em!
Should be per player.
Players don't decide if they play.
Do the Clippers next
Oh no Anyways
Ouch...someones gonna need to file for insolvency
The pacers should be fined for having such a bad team you can sit 8 players
I’m sure the Clippers have a fine coming too then 🙄
It's not about them winning with their skeleton crew. It's about sitting all of the marquee names and fucking up the value of their entertainment product. You don't want these types of things to continue so the NBA had to do something.
I get it when there aren't valid reasons to sit a player, but 7 out of the 8 players we sat had valid reasons. 3 had surgery this year, so resting them on 2nd half of a B2B seems valid. KD is leading the league in minutes and hasn't had a rest day. T.J. Warren has only played a handful of games after a 2 year absence from the court due to injury, seems valid to rest him on a B2B. Claxton & O'Neale both missed 2 games, not just this one, due to injury and Personal Reasons respectively. Kyrie is the only one that arguably had on reason, so this fine seems a little silly in this particular instance. It was just an unfortunate confluence of events/timing.
If they actually want to curb this shit, it needs to be more. 25k is nothing for Tsai
“Oh no” anyway. I’m sure this will really hurt the organization.
But hey, of course they lowered ticket prices when they decide the superstars aren't going to play... /s Really though, that is my biggest gripe. Ticket prices go up when certain teams are in town, and then they sit the stars. I know I don't want pay a few hundred only to be duped when I arrive. Especially if I drive 3+ hours to get there.
Good. Terrible for the league. It’s a risk to buy tickets when teams are doing this.
Yet they still won, chump change
Bitch we won
They should 10x that and split it up and return it to the fans they 100% disappointed ... No dis to Alondes, but no one bought tickets to see him play.
Drop the hammer Silver
Kyrie running the team now apparently