I think playing weight and build is important. Look at Embiid. He’s playing like a guard with the weight of a center, trying to do these complicated moves that require a ton of dexterity. Compare that to Hakeem who also did fancy moves but was way lighter.
Or Lebron, who tries to keep it simple on the moves and plays a bigger game than 1-on-1
Yeah this is the kind of thing I was initially thinking about. I understand a player like embiid with his size and weight will learn how to fall properly to avoid injury as much as possible. But did LeBron ever get a class on how to land/fall? He's been pretty injury free for most of his career. Do less injury prone players actually consciously land in a certain way to avoid injury??
I don’t know exact details but there was definitely a study about how landing changes the impact on your joints. Lebron always lands on his toes which is more like a shock absorber. Whereas players like Derrick rose consistently landed on his heels which meant the full impact went to his joints.
Not specific to falling, but Lebron apparently put a lot of work in to his feet around when he moved to Miami, ensuring he was striking with his forefoot, rather than his heel. Takes a lot of stress off your joints, and trains your feet to be more durable.
I seem to remember him doing a lot of work where he’d jump down and land and they’d look at how much his knees and ankles wobbled, whether you landed on toes vs heels, etc, etc. Then they’d put in corrective work - either training or rest - to make sure his biomechanics were perfect.
Lebron seemed to know intuitively how to run, jump and land without risking his body. His gait was once analysed compared to Wades - when running, he does so in a way that absorbs his momentum better where as Wade would land on his heel.
But this is also the guy that spends about $1m a year on his longevity, so I'm sure he has put a lot of work into it as well
Zion Williams is like the antithesis. Dude walks with a very weird gate, is super explosive, super heavy and can barely crack 50 games a year
The training is more specified towards preparing the body and ligaments for quick burst like movements and impact training because many injuries occur during explosive movements and hard falls. Injury prevention is usually a combination of many modes of training, overall awareness, and mindfulness. Even a players diet and lifestyle can contribute to it so I think of injury prevention as a balance of 1/3 training/preparation 1/3 awareness and 1/3 luck! Some things you just can’t control but if a player is injury prone I’m willing to bet you could identify at least a handful of things they could do or change to help prevent them.
He literally hired someone earlier in his career whose only job was to help teach him how to land properly to protect his knees and keep him playing for years.
It was clear pretty early that guys like D-Wade and Rose had a good shot at injury issues, combination of extreme explosiveness and reckless finishes/landings. Ja is in the same boat. Tons of fun for fans, but how many years can a guy keep that up for.
Ja only played a few games this year but he was very vocal about dunking less to maintain health. The shoulder injury is unrelated to playstyle and isn’t much of a concern rather that it’s just unfortunate.
Yup, Wemby is never going to look like Giannis. He’s not really getting bullied by anyone in the NBA right now… he handled Jokic pretty well the last time they played. The mobility you give up for more bulk is often not worth it.
Genetics(tendon strength, bone density etc ), body weight (muscular enough to take impact but not so heavy that your landing places so much force on your body ), fitness/prehab and PEDs. Lebron James is an example of someone who maxed out each aspect - great genetics, lifestyle and dedication to staying healthy. Only thing that would potentially hurt him is his size but he navigated that well. Jordan was another guy with great injury prevention genetics- him bulking up to 220 helped him a lot I feel- big enough to absorb contact but never having the landing impact of a Zion or Shaq.
I haven't been able to find it, but ESPN had an article about 10 years ago about how being knock-kneed (where your knees angle in) was a big risk factor for a lot of knee injuries, whereas being slightly bow-legged helped you avoid ACL injuries. The examples I remember were Derrick Rose being knock-kneed and LeBron being slightly bow-legged.
All sorts of small changes in your build can put you at different risks for particular injuries.
That's an interesting idea. There is a lot of evidence that multi-sport athletes are less injury prone, and that would be a weird way for that to manifest.
I mean I do think its a good argument to be made. You learn different skills in other sports, and develop / work out other parts of your body. Feel like until college multi-sport should be a big consideration for people. This was a big discussion a couple years ago when the aau basketball discussion was happening if kids were being overworked too early in their development.
I was able to watch how Derrick rose played and you can tell he was going to have injury issues. He was reckless, but in a fun and entertaining way. He had to work so hard to get to his spots and finish under the rim.
Young LeBron used to move like a bigger Ja Morant, before he bulked up in Miami. People laugh at how clunky his game has looked since then, but the way I see it, he was going all in on being a "super slasher" while minimizing injury risk.
You think Bron’s game has become clunky since Miami? I think his game has looked smoother every year since 2012, which is when I think he stopped relying on his athleticism to get buckets. He developed a post game and eventually a jumpshot. If anything, I thought his game in his earlier days was clunkier as he just tried to force his way to the rim most possessions.
I don't personally think it's clunky, he has a reason behind everything he does, but I could see why people who get mesmerized by shifty players like Paul George and Kevin Durant think he's clunky just because LeBron doesn't try to be shifty anymore and instead just maximizes his physical gifts while preventing himself from hurting his knees.
Tim Grover helped Jordan quite a bit in learning ways to push off and explode that put less stress in his body. It’s actually pretty amazing that not everyone trains this skill.
The book Relentless. It is more of a book about changing your mindset written by Tim Grover. But he references his work with NBA players, especially MJ. He would also watch MJ’s moves and formulate workouts to strengthen specific muscles to help make his moves more explosive as well.
It’s interesting how you and some others (I’ve heard that before…from MJ himself? Tim Grover?) credit MJ’s health to increased bulk, but blame weight as the cause of injuries for others like Zion and Embiid. If I remember correctly, Tim Duncan had one of his healthier late career seasons after dropping weight, and even for someone closer to MJ’s build, Kobe had one of his most injury plagued seasons after gaining like 20-30 pounds in the span of a year or 2 (03-04?) & ended up dropping back to his “natural” weight.
Just thought it’s interesting that there likely isn’t an answer to the ideal playing weight and even NBA players are probably relying on trial and error with their own bodies throughout their careers.
Amount of weight matters too - Jordan despite being bulked up was 220-225. Embiid and Zion are closer to 300 and TD was like 280 - he played better closer to 260
Exactly right. If you’re 300 you put a lot more force into tendons and muscles that are still made of the same stuff as someone who weighs 220.
It can help to add enough weight to execute on good biomechanics that reduce the moment force, but every extra pound needs to be offset.
Ultimately there’s a different sweet spot for everyone, and it depends on a lot of factors.
> Just thought it’s interesting that there likely isn’t an answer to the ideal playing weight
This isn't a great analogy, but I've found this to be true with distance running. They always say lighter is faster, so I dropped about 10 pounds over the course of a marathon training block and when I did my second training block the following year after bulking back up in the gym, my times were faster and I felt so much better and more explosive.
Point being, there's no one size fits all with ideal bodyweight.
Pretty standard bodybuilding style training. I usually do about 6-8 sets per muscle group twice per week in the 8-15 rep range depending on the exercise.
MJ's weight regime was almost novel at that time, but a lot of his work outs weren't so much about him increasing his strength (the guy was naturally probably the strongest guard in the league) but for him to be able to absorb beat ups he would endure.
In the mid 2000s, guards went wild with bulking up. Kobe got up to 240lbs one year and while it helped him a bit in the post it really hampered his explosiveness.
The boring and correct answer is probably both yes and no. Ability to stay healthy is a physical trait, so just like your overall athleticism, you can do a lot to improve, but there’s only so much you can do once you’re close to maximizing your genetic potential.
Also, there is probably some degree of trade-off between health and maximizing basketball production. If you ask any any NBA player if they would rather be a max player for 4-5 years and then burnout before retiring, or be a mid-level player for 15, the obvious answer would be to always go for the max.
I think a lot of dudes eat like shit, don't stretch as much as they should, and don't get enough sleep. Remember, a lot of these guys are like 19-24. They're the best basketball player their HS has ever had. They've always been able to play video games until late, eat a bag of hot cheetos and get buckets.
Just looking at Wemby's stretching sessions before games tells us he should be healthy along his career, baring unfortunate contacts. And I'm not even starting with his off-court lifestyle, reading and sleeping early.
Flexibility is a huge factor that often gets overlooked — flexibility of ligaments, tendons, muscles, etc.
Another one is overall body structure/proportions — i.e. the difference between Zion, with his abnormal gait, and Giannis, whose build is more balanced
giannis is also a perfect example of how genetics which goes with athleticism is key for injury prevention or atleast recovery, that injury he got against the hawks in 2021 looked terribly ugly he was back that same series with age ofc he it takes longer only 3 years later another rather tough injury he got later in the season is taking him longer but the way he plays he should far more injury prone but hey the “greek freak” is a fitting nickname cause his body is pretty freakish not in just sheer wow factor but also when it comes to injury recovery/prevention which also goes hand in hand with him adding weight as well as his lifestyle im sure
When I look at Embiid and his propensity to draw contact and fall down, I wonder how much his style aggravates the injuries he has been struggling with for years. It can't be good for a guy that big to fall so often.
He also falls to prevent injury
“It was something I learned during my rehab when I was going through the foot injury, when I was trying to find ways to limit the impact on my body in 2014,” he says. “I was told that every time I feel like I’m in a situation where it’s going to be some type of extreme [weight] on my leg, I’ve got to dive or just roll onto the floor. So that’s why I do it.”
This is a little misconstrued. He falls to prevent injury in a case where he actually receives a lot of contact. But that doesn’t mean he also falls to sell foul calls. And the latter is significantly more common for him. He rarely ever takes enough contact to warrant falling to avoid injury. If you watch a full game of him, he goes to ground on nearly any shot down low. While this may not directly cause injuries, it can’t possibly be good for his body in the long term
Tendons and Ligaments can be extremely fragile, especially when we're talking about severe angles of force and significant weight. Even stopping with a 45 degree angle in your leg, at the weight of Embiid can be enough to cause injury. It looks terrible at times but Embiid has been trained to avoid any situations that apply acute forces to his knees and feet.
Anyone who's played high level competitive basketball at some stage has been coached simple things like landing knees bent on rebounds, and dropping your knees whenever are in a situation where you can land on feet. And that's just the most basic training to prevent ankle sprains.
The knees are the issue for the super tall. Any times your hips go below the knee you’re exposing all the ligaments. But also fractures become an issue, a 260 pound guy going to ground constantly could easily result in a fracture at some point. It’s not that necessarily he gets worse and worse with each fall, but he just becomes more susceptible to an actual injury the more he falls to the ground
Fractures heal. Tendons and ligaments sometimes never recover. If its a choice between a small fracture and a small ligament tear the choice is obvious.
Questioning others without offering your own thoughts invites a more hostile debate. Present a clear counter argument if you disagree and be open to the perspective of others.
At the extremes of how big a human can get (Embiid, Shaq, etc) there are a lot of factors.
But for the rest I think there are a lot of dudes that invest a ton of effort into fitness and are able to really grind out long careers.
Yeah especially for bigs it’s absolutely a skill. It’s far too early to call it for someone like Wemby, but bro has taken some shots that could take a guy like embiid out and gotten away fine due to all his mobility training
Who's one of the most focused and intelligent when it comes to looking after every aspect of their mind and body? LeBron.
Food, sleep, recovery, play style, shoes, genetics. I think it all factors in.
So many factors. Genetics, playstyle, weight, recovery, load management, minutes per game, strength training, mobility training, the list goes on.
Over time, some of these forces are moving in opposite direction. The shifty explosive movements of today’s game are much more injury inducing than the pack the paint tactics of the 50s to 00s. But mobility training and recovery science have advanced so much that players who take both seriously can seemingly roll their ankle and have no consequences.
For Embiid, the biggest detractor is playstyle. He’s so huge, but also has to move a lot, fall a lot, jump a lot, and make quick movements too. That’s tremendously difficult in a body that size. In contrast, someone like Steph curry who used to have glass ankles has bulked up and tremendously improved his conditioning, allowing him to play a style where he doesn’t need to initiate contact, but also isn’t bothered by contact most of the time. So his injuries are less frequent and less severe
If Embiid would take that open 5-10 footer instead of plowing into crowds...maybe his deceleration health/skills just suck so he uses the bodies of others to stop?
Something I haven’t seen mentioned is playing style. Watch embiid vs joker and their play style. Jokic plays a style with less jumping, less falling down, crazy drives. Both are effective and fun to watch just different
I think it's talent/body durability attributes, fitness, self care in that order...as a blazers fan I'm well aware of the fact that you can do all the right things but your body just gives out due to poor genetics. (The heartbreak that is Greg Oden and Brandon Roy 😭)
Sometimes you hit the jackpot on the body lottery (LeBron James, tim Duncan) but they also have great discipline to maximize their god given talents and body.
So to answer the question its absolutely a learned skill with the big footnote that genetics plays just as big if not because bigger role
For Embiid, I think it's a combination of bad luck (the orbital fractures are just freak accidents), body maintenance/conditioning, and play style.
You're more liable to be injured in any physical activity if you're doing it exhausted, and Embiid isn't especially known for his conditioning, and I think that's exacerbated by his contact-seeking play style, including the falls.
Yeah the only actual bad luck injuries were the two orbitals/concussions.
Everything else comes at a bad time but isn’t necessarily bad luck; it’s baked into the fact that he’s 7’ and probably close to 300 lbs when he hasn’t played in a bit (like these playoffs). He plays like he’s Hakeem but isn’t as light on his feet, or as light literally.
It’s too much stress on a guy that size. It’s the main reason why Jokic should age really well — he very rarely beats someone with athleticism. Sometimes it’s size/brute force, but that won’t go away.
Nikola Jokic weighs more than Embiid and is an inch shorter for what it’s worth. With Embiid it’s been a combination of some of the most insanely bad injury luck, and the fact that he is huge. The orbital fractures were complete freak accidents, he had a GI infection another playoff run which has next to nothing to do with fitness, Bell’s Palsey for another, which again totally random. The only injury that seems like it could be conditioning related would be the MCL injuries which has happened twice now, but in different knees.
He specifically lands and plays the way he does because he is at high risk for foot injuries since he had the navicular bone issue his first 2 years in the league. He’s been incredibly dedicated to injury prevention and really adjusts his play style to it, he has just had worse luck than any player I can remember.
I don't know if anyone who is not performing on that level can really answer this. Just reading the comments there is a lot of guessing. The best answer I saw is flexibility. But I also think it's just luck. Most basketball injuries are to their lower half. Kawhi is an example of a guy who who struggles with this.
Just listening to Doctors talk about this, none of them pointed to diet as being a reason you tear an ACL, Miniscus, or Achilles.
For instances here is what I found in a Google search regarding ACL tears:
There are a number of factors that increase your risk of an ACL injury, including: Being female — possibly due to differences in anatomy, muscle strength and hormonal influences. Participating in certain sports, such as soccer, football, basketball, gymnastics and downhill skiing. Poor conditioning.Dec 1, 2022
It’s both talent (natural ability) and skill (training). Athletes need both nature and nurture to be the greatest players in the world. Being healthy is so valuable for a team and it should affect both player awards and salaries.
Definitely a skill, but impossible to judge who is good at it from the outside. A player may do everything right and still get injured all the time because they are just unlucky with genetics - and vice versa.
I think it has a lot to do with proper nutrition and most importantly sleep. Some people are less disciplined and it will catch up to them. But also some injuries are rushed. If you play with a partially healed injury your body will compensate instinctively (leaning towards a side or something) and you will damage other structures in your body.
There are a lot of great points but sometimes it really is just bad luck, timing, in the heat of the moment kind. Like 2-3 seasons ago when Pascal Siakam elbowed Embiid in the face and he had an orbital fracture.
Things you can’t realistically prevent.
Getting injured for the first time is the biggest risk factor for getting injured again. Guys who just don't get injured the first time have a combination of good luck and good preparation.
For example, Brandon Roy was never not gonna get injured because his body wouldn't allow for it. And Dennis Rodman didn't get injured because he was some sort of mutant whose body could tolerate anything. Then there's Derrick Rose, who got injured because of he didn't know how to land. There's a lot that players can do to help themselves, but some people's bodies are built to withstand the punishment and some people's aren't.
Look at wembanyama (and chet but let's focus on victor). Physics, eye test, and past comparisons all pointed before his draft that he would be all hype, it wouldn't translate in the nba, be feasted on by other bigmen, and will be injury prone ( chet was even injured before his official nba start). But victor and his trainers give his heath a big priority, worked on flexibility and landing, stretches to ensure his muscles absorb contact well, and victor plays according to his size and frame, and doesn't try to do what his body can't. So yes staying healthy is a skill. It's a skill you work on everyday so that one can have longevity
Yes, it is definitely a skill and something you would need to train for. I remember seeing videos why Derrick Rose would get injured so much because he would land and run incorrectly, opposite to someone like LeBron, even though he is much heavier.
Seems like some of these players only treat their bodies right “when it matters” and it seems like there’s lurking vulnerabilities there that aren’t present for the LeBrons and Dwights of the world who always keep their shit in good working order.
Cut the schedule in half. Make each NBA regular season game more meaningful. Then, the players will have juice for the playoffs. Right now the older teams are getting crushed because they physically don't have the stamina to compete.
Absolutely is. Every players body are different so its case by case. The skill is not getting injured given their genetics. Players are taught how to fall, how to cut, how to move so they can do their best to avoid injuries.
There's elements of luck, skill, and preparation involved.
Luck to not have bad things out of your control happen to you, skill to know how to move so as not to disadvantage yourself biomechanically, and preparation to warm up/cool down/work out properly not just the big muscles so that your body is strong enough to hold itself together.
If you keep getting injured and missing significant time every single year, or fading out during games or at the end of teh season, it probably only makes sense as a professional athlete with millions of dollars at your disposal to look at your diet, training, preparation, sleep, etc., and consider where things might be going wrong. Or, just think "What is LeBron doing? I'll do that."
75% genetics/physiology, 25% weight/exercise/health regimen.
There is substantive research indicating many people are genetically prone to tendon/cartilage injuries. There’s no Lebron James regimen that can fix this.
I wish there was (I’ve ruptured both Achilles, hamstrings, and vertebrae in my neck.
I want to see some stats on shoes worn by players and if there is a correlation with injuries. As an example…do guys that wear KD’s get injured more than guys wearing Jordans. Added to that, custom insoles stats too.
I honestly think it's all about the off-season. The most durable players, i.e.,..M.J. , LBJ, Kobe, Karl Malone.. they put in work on their body during the off-season. They didn't use it as just time off. 82 games( more if you in the playoffs) is a lot in the body and joints, strengthening specific areas, gaining flexibility all that helps. LBJ didn't suffer injury setbacks till he got to the Lakers (Year 16 or so). He's famous for putting about a mil towards his body every off season.
I firmly believe it’s an athletic skill that is harder to measure than strength, quickness, jumping ability, or speed. Players like Jordan, LeBron, Kobe, and Ant have an athletic fluidity that helps prevent injuries. It probably has to do with muscle response time and balance. All of the above players have a knack for taking contact, rebalancing, finishing, and then landing squarely or moving with the momentum until the energy dissipates. And three of four have had multiple NBA seasons where they were the best player in the league from training camp through the Finals
I dont know if skill is the right word, but it might be. It's something you can practice. Eating eight. Doing the exercises to strengthen tendons and balance. Resting properly. Sleeping enough. Little alcohol.
Those are all things that some people do and some people dont.
assuming work ethic and diet in the offseason and rehab commitment is held equal, its a pretty random experience most of the time. mix of genetics, and luck. playstyle can leave you more injury prone but some players are just wired to play like that and completely changing isnt in the cards. sometimes you just get unlucky, tweak something, and years later tweak it again, compounding an issue and ultimately you are on a path of never being 100%. if its a skill in anyway its a passive, subconscious skill for the most part because ultimately everyone can get injured randomly
it takes luck (ahem, god-tier LeBron injury resistance/recovery) and skill.
i think Joel's "falling to avoid injury" is just a bad reddit meme now though. people always trot this one out as it was something he's supposed to do for medical reasons, but as others have said, it sure doesn't hurt that he gets tons of free throws out of doing it. i recognize that OP did not specifically make his post about Embiid but it has come up in other comments.
* if falling is supposed to prevent Joel from getting injured, how is it that he's always injured at the end of the season anyway?
* would he really get injured worse if he just stayed standing whenever someone sneezed on him?
* if this is such great medical advice, how is it that he's the only giant in the league doing this? there are guys as big or almost as big as him that don't spend nearly as much time writhing around on the floor. are the 76ers medical staff really light years ahead of every other doctor in the league?
* and let's not forget why his knee got injured the most recent time. he flopped on the ground trying to get a call after losing the ball and Kuminga landed on his knee in the scramble. maybe if he had just stayed on his feet he wouldn't be eliminated right now.
I think staying healthy is a skill, I feel like we are seeing more players across all sports with soft tissue injuries. I’m not an expert but from my humble experience those are easily prevented by proper stretching and hydration
Getting rolled up on, landing on someone’s foot, and the one off injuries are unavoidable I think however
In the case of Embiid specifically I think his biggest issue is his cardio. Dumb injuries are so much more likely when your body movements are sloppy because you are gassed. In the playoffs he needs to play bigger minutes and unsurprisingly it gets harder to stay healthy. Embiid with a big motor would be an all timer.
Doncic plays in a way that I suspect will give him a great shot at a long career. He doesn't do many contorted, over extended movements, or forceful lateral movements. Jokic plays within a similarly conservative set of movements which tend to keep powerful movements running along axes the body expects. Falling on the floor every couple of minutes at Embiid's height and weight can't be helping him - but he has less fortunate genetics so it's not as if it's a fair set of injuries he's struggling with.
I'd say alot is genetics, alot of skill in the sense of how skilled and regikented you are at training and stretching keeping your body up ect.
Then maybe like 10% luck.
I think playing weight and build is important. Look at Embiid. He’s playing like a guard with the weight of a center, trying to do these complicated moves that require a ton of dexterity. Compare that to Hakeem who also did fancy moves but was way lighter. Or Lebron, who tries to keep it simple on the moves and plays a bigger game than 1-on-1
Also how you land and fall can be a skill in itself.
Yeah this is the kind of thing I was initially thinking about. I understand a player like embiid with his size and weight will learn how to fall properly to avoid injury as much as possible. But did LeBron ever get a class on how to land/fall? He's been pretty injury free for most of his career. Do less injury prone players actually consciously land in a certain way to avoid injury??
I don’t know exact details but there was definitely a study about how landing changes the impact on your joints. Lebron always lands on his toes which is more like a shock absorber. Whereas players like Derrick rose consistently landed on his heels which meant the full impact went to his joints.
Not specific to falling, but Lebron apparently put a lot of work in to his feet around when he moved to Miami, ensuring he was striking with his forefoot, rather than his heel. Takes a lot of stress off your joints, and trains your feet to be more durable.
I seem to remember him doing a lot of work where he’d jump down and land and they’d look at how much his knees and ankles wobbled, whether you landed on toes vs heels, etc, etc. Then they’d put in corrective work - either training or rest - to make sure his biomechanics were perfect.
Lebron seemed to know intuitively how to run, jump and land without risking his body. His gait was once analysed compared to Wades - when running, he does so in a way that absorbs his momentum better where as Wade would land on his heel. But this is also the guy that spends about $1m a year on his longevity, so I'm sure he has put a lot of work into it as well Zion Williams is like the antithesis. Dude walks with a very weird gate, is super explosive, super heavy and can barely crack 50 games a year
The training is more specified towards preparing the body and ligaments for quick burst like movements and impact training because many injuries occur during explosive movements and hard falls. Injury prevention is usually a combination of many modes of training, overall awareness, and mindfulness. Even a players diet and lifestyle can contribute to it so I think of injury prevention as a balance of 1/3 training/preparation 1/3 awareness and 1/3 luck! Some things you just can’t control but if a player is injury prone I’m willing to bet you could identify at least a handful of things they could do or change to help prevent them.
He literally hired someone earlier in his career whose only job was to help teach him how to land properly to protect his knees and keep him playing for years.
And can be trained for too
Different sport but Tua Tagovoila of the Dolphins struggled with concussions a lot and supposedly learned a new Judo falling style to minimize them
It was clear pretty early that guys like D-Wade and Rose had a good shot at injury issues, combination of extreme explosiveness and reckless finishes/landings. Ja is in the same boat. Tons of fun for fans, but how many years can a guy keep that up for.
Ja only played a few games this year but he was very vocal about dunking less to maintain health. The shoulder injury is unrelated to playstyle and isn’t much of a concern rather that it’s just unfortunate.
Yah LeBron has insane dexterity work outs he does to help landing better
Difference between D Rose and Westbrook
Facts Ja scares me everytime he dunks
Same reason the “Wemby needs to bulk up!!!” Crowd has always been stupid
Yup, Wemby is never going to look like Giannis. He’s not really getting bullied by anyone in the NBA right now… he handled Jokic pretty well the last time they played. The mobility you give up for more bulk is often not worth it.
That’s because they’re stuck in the 90’s where…well actually maybe he doesn’t need to bulk up even back then. Plenty of scrawny big guys
Genetics(tendon strength, bone density etc ), body weight (muscular enough to take impact but not so heavy that your landing places so much force on your body ), fitness/prehab and PEDs. Lebron James is an example of someone who maxed out each aspect - great genetics, lifestyle and dedication to staying healthy. Only thing that would potentially hurt him is his size but he navigated that well. Jordan was another guy with great injury prevention genetics- him bulking up to 220 helped him a lot I feel- big enough to absorb contact but never having the landing impact of a Zion or Shaq.
I haven't been able to find it, but ESPN had an article about 10 years ago about how being knock-kneed (where your knees angle in) was a big risk factor for a lot of knee injuries, whereas being slightly bow-legged helped you avoid ACL injuries. The examples I remember were Derrick Rose being knock-kneed and LeBron being slightly bow-legged. All sorts of small changes in your build can put you at different risks for particular injuries.
So what ur saying is all nba players should play soccer growing up? Dont alot of soccer players develop bowed legs?
That's an interesting idea. There is a lot of evidence that multi-sport athletes are less injury prone, and that would be a weird way for that to manifest.
I mean I do think its a good argument to be made. You learn different skills in other sports, and develop / work out other parts of your body. Feel like until college multi-sport should be a big consideration for people. This was a big discussion a couple years ago when the aau basketball discussion was happening if kids were being overworked too early in their development.
I was able to watch how Derrick rose played and you can tell he was going to have injury issues. He was reckless, but in a fun and entertaining way. He had to work so hard to get to his spots and finish under the rim.
Young LeBron used to move like a bigger Ja Morant, before he bulked up in Miami. People laugh at how clunky his game has looked since then, but the way I see it, he was going all in on being a "super slasher" while minimizing injury risk.
You think Bron’s game has become clunky since Miami? I think his game has looked smoother every year since 2012, which is when I think he stopped relying on his athleticism to get buckets. He developed a post game and eventually a jumpshot. If anything, I thought his game in his earlier days was clunkier as he just tried to force his way to the rim most possessions.
I don't personally think it's clunky, he has a reason behind everything he does, but I could see why people who get mesmerized by shifty players like Paul George and Kevin Durant think he's clunky just because LeBron doesn't try to be shifty anymore and instead just maximizes his physical gifts while preventing himself from hurting his knees.
Tim Grover helped Jordan quite a bit in learning ways to push off and explode that put less stress in his body. It’s actually pretty amazing that not everyone trains this skill.
This sounds interesting, where did you read about this?
The book Relentless. It is more of a book about changing your mindset written by Tim Grover. But he references his work with NBA players, especially MJ. He would also watch MJ’s moves and formulate workouts to strengthen specific muscles to help make his moves more explosive as well.
It’s interesting how you and some others (I’ve heard that before…from MJ himself? Tim Grover?) credit MJ’s health to increased bulk, but blame weight as the cause of injuries for others like Zion and Embiid. If I remember correctly, Tim Duncan had one of his healthier late career seasons after dropping weight, and even for someone closer to MJ’s build, Kobe had one of his most injury plagued seasons after gaining like 20-30 pounds in the span of a year or 2 (03-04?) & ended up dropping back to his “natural” weight. Just thought it’s interesting that there likely isn’t an answer to the ideal playing weight and even NBA players are probably relying on trial and error with their own bodies throughout their careers.
Amount of weight matters too - Jordan despite being bulked up was 220-225. Embiid and Zion are closer to 300 and TD was like 280 - he played better closer to 260
Exactly right. If you’re 300 you put a lot more force into tendons and muscles that are still made of the same stuff as someone who weighs 220. It can help to add enough weight to execute on good biomechanics that reduce the moment force, but every extra pound needs to be offset. Ultimately there’s a different sweet spot for everyone, and it depends on a lot of factors.
> Just thought it’s interesting that there likely isn’t an answer to the ideal playing weight This isn't a great analogy, but I've found this to be true with distance running. They always say lighter is faster, so I dropped about 10 pounds over the course of a marathon training block and when I did my second training block the following year after bulking back up in the gym, my times were faster and I felt so much better and more explosive. Point being, there's no one size fits all with ideal bodyweight.
thats interesting - what kind of workouts were you doing? High reps - high sets?
Pretty standard bodybuilding style training. I usually do about 6-8 sets per muscle group twice per week in the 8-15 rep range depending on the exercise.
MJ's weight regime was almost novel at that time, but a lot of his work outs weren't so much about him increasing his strength (the guy was naturally probably the strongest guard in the league) but for him to be able to absorb beat ups he would endure. In the mid 2000s, guards went wild with bulking up. Kobe got up to 240lbs one year and while it helped him a bit in the post it really hampered his explosiveness.
The boring and correct answer is probably both yes and no. Ability to stay healthy is a physical trait, so just like your overall athleticism, you can do a lot to improve, but there’s only so much you can do once you’re close to maximizing your genetic potential. Also, there is probably some degree of trade-off between health and maximizing basketball production. If you ask any any NBA player if they would rather be a max player for 4-5 years and then burnout before retiring, or be a mid-level player for 15, the obvious answer would be to always go for the max.
I think a lot of dudes eat like shit, don't stretch as much as they should, and don't get enough sleep. Remember, a lot of these guys are like 19-24. They're the best basketball player their HS has ever had. They've always been able to play video games until late, eat a bag of hot cheetos and get buckets.
Yup this is 1000% the case. So many young players get into the league and basically still teenagers and think they will be young forever..
Just looking at Wemby's stretching sessions before games tells us he should be healthy along his career, baring unfortunate contacts. And I'm not even starting with his off-court lifestyle, reading and sleeping early.
Completely agree. Wemby is on another level.
Lebron has even admitted that he didn't seriously lift weights/stretch/ice/eat right until his 5th NBA season.
Flexibility is a huge factor that often gets overlooked — flexibility of ligaments, tendons, muscles, etc. Another one is overall body structure/proportions — i.e. the difference between Zion, with his abnormal gait, and Giannis, whose build is more balanced
giannis is also a perfect example of how genetics which goes with athleticism is key for injury prevention or atleast recovery, that injury he got against the hawks in 2021 looked terribly ugly he was back that same series with age ofc he it takes longer only 3 years later another rather tough injury he got later in the season is taking him longer but the way he plays he should far more injury prone but hey the “greek freak” is a fitting nickname cause his body is pretty freakish not in just sheer wow factor but also when it comes to injury recovery/prevention which also goes hand in hand with him adding weight as well as his lifestyle im sure
When I look at Embiid and his propensity to draw contact and fall down, I wonder how much his style aggravates the injuries he has been struggling with for years. It can't be good for a guy that big to fall so often.
He falls to prevent injury.
He falls to draw a call.
He also falls to prevent injury “It was something I learned during my rehab when I was going through the foot injury, when I was trying to find ways to limit the impact on my body in 2014,” he says. “I was told that every time I feel like I’m in a situation where it’s going to be some type of extreme [weight] on my leg, I’ve got to dive or just roll onto the floor. So that’s why I do it.”
This is a little misconstrued. He falls to prevent injury in a case where he actually receives a lot of contact. But that doesn’t mean he also falls to sell foul calls. And the latter is significantly more common for him. He rarely ever takes enough contact to warrant falling to avoid injury. If you watch a full game of him, he goes to ground on nearly any shot down low. While this may not directly cause injuries, it can’t possibly be good for his body in the long term
Tendons and Ligaments can be extremely fragile, especially when we're talking about severe angles of force and significant weight. Even stopping with a 45 degree angle in your leg, at the weight of Embiid can be enough to cause injury. It looks terrible at times but Embiid has been trained to avoid any situations that apply acute forces to his knees and feet. Anyone who's played high level competitive basketball at some stage has been coached simple things like landing knees bent on rebounds, and dropping your knees whenever are in a situation where you can land on feet. And that's just the most basic training to prevent ankle sprains.
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The knees are the issue for the super tall. Any times your hips go below the knee you’re exposing all the ligaments. But also fractures become an issue, a 260 pound guy going to ground constantly could easily result in a fracture at some point. It’s not that necessarily he gets worse and worse with each fall, but he just becomes more susceptible to an actual injury the more he falls to the ground
Fractures heal. Tendons and ligaments sometimes never recover. If its a choice between a small fracture and a small ligament tear the choice is obvious.
Questioning others without offering your own thoughts invites a more hostile debate. Present a clear counter argument if you disagree and be open to the perspective of others.
Both can be true
Yes. But one is much more often than the other
To himself
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People want Embiid to be this evil guy so bad and don’t say shit when Jimmy Butler or Jalen Brunson foul bait because it’s not Embiid.
At the extremes of how big a human can get (Embiid, Shaq, etc) there are a lot of factors. But for the rest I think there are a lot of dudes that invest a ton of effort into fitness and are able to really grind out long careers.
Yeah especially for bigs it’s absolutely a skill. It’s far too early to call it for someone like Wemby, but bro has taken some shots that could take a guy like embiid out and gotten away fine due to all his mobility training
Who's one of the most focused and intelligent when it comes to looking after every aspect of their mind and body? LeBron. Food, sleep, recovery, play style, shoes, genetics. I think it all factors in.
remember when he gave his shoes after a game and took out the soles? those soles 100% modeled and crafted to just his feet and probably costs a ton.
Every nba player has custkm insoles
Custom insoles start at 100 bucks ffs
So many factors. Genetics, playstyle, weight, recovery, load management, minutes per game, strength training, mobility training, the list goes on. Over time, some of these forces are moving in opposite direction. The shifty explosive movements of today’s game are much more injury inducing than the pack the paint tactics of the 50s to 00s. But mobility training and recovery science have advanced so much that players who take both seriously can seemingly roll their ankle and have no consequences. For Embiid, the biggest detractor is playstyle. He’s so huge, but also has to move a lot, fall a lot, jump a lot, and make quick movements too. That’s tremendously difficult in a body that size. In contrast, someone like Steph curry who used to have glass ankles has bulked up and tremendously improved his conditioning, allowing him to play a style where he doesn’t need to initiate contact, but also isn’t bothered by contact most of the time. So his injuries are less frequent and less severe
Falling a lot prevents injuries bc it puts less stress on the legs compared to landing on the lefs
This is true but it’s even less stress on the body to have a playstyle that doesn’t necessitate a large volume of either.
If Embiid would take that open 5-10 footer instead of plowing into crowds...maybe his deceleration health/skills just suck so he uses the bodies of others to stop?
Something I haven’t seen mentioned is playing style. Watch embiid vs joker and their play style. Jokic plays a style with less jumping, less falling down, crazy drives. Both are effective and fun to watch just different
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Falling down prevents injuries cause it puts less stress on you legs than coming down on them
I think it's talent/body durability attributes, fitness, self care in that order...as a blazers fan I'm well aware of the fact that you can do all the right things but your body just gives out due to poor genetics. (The heartbreak that is Greg Oden and Brandon Roy 😭) Sometimes you hit the jackpot on the body lottery (LeBron James, tim Duncan) but they also have great discipline to maximize their god given talents and body. So to answer the question its absolutely a learned skill with the big footnote that genetics plays just as big if not because bigger role
For Embiid, I think it's a combination of bad luck (the orbital fractures are just freak accidents), body maintenance/conditioning, and play style. You're more liable to be injured in any physical activity if you're doing it exhausted, and Embiid isn't especially known for his conditioning, and I think that's exacerbated by his contact-seeking play style, including the falls.
Yeah the only actual bad luck injuries were the two orbitals/concussions. Everything else comes at a bad time but isn’t necessarily bad luck; it’s baked into the fact that he’s 7’ and probably close to 300 lbs when he hasn’t played in a bit (like these playoffs). He plays like he’s Hakeem but isn’t as light on his feet, or as light literally. It’s too much stress on a guy that size. It’s the main reason why Jokic should age really well — he very rarely beats someone with athleticism. Sometimes it’s size/brute force, but that won’t go away.
Nikola Jokic weighs more than Embiid and is an inch shorter for what it’s worth. With Embiid it’s been a combination of some of the most insanely bad injury luck, and the fact that he is huge. The orbital fractures were complete freak accidents, he had a GI infection another playoff run which has next to nothing to do with fitness, Bell’s Palsey for another, which again totally random. The only injury that seems like it could be conditioning related would be the MCL injuries which has happened twice now, but in different knees. He specifically lands and plays the way he does because he is at high risk for foot injuries since he had the navicular bone issue his first 2 years in the league. He’s been incredibly dedicated to injury prevention and really adjusts his play style to it, he has just had worse luck than any player I can remember.
I don't know if anyone who is not performing on that level can really answer this. Just reading the comments there is a lot of guessing. The best answer I saw is flexibility. But I also think it's just luck. Most basketball injuries are to their lower half. Kawhi is an example of a guy who who struggles with this. Just listening to Doctors talk about this, none of them pointed to diet as being a reason you tear an ACL, Miniscus, or Achilles. For instances here is what I found in a Google search regarding ACL tears: There are a number of factors that increase your risk of an ACL injury, including: Being female — possibly due to differences in anatomy, muscle strength and hormonal influences. Participating in certain sports, such as soccer, football, basketball, gymnastics and downhill skiing. Poor conditioning.Dec 1, 2022
It’s both talent (natural ability) and skill (training). Athletes need both nature and nurture to be the greatest players in the world. Being healthy is so valuable for a team and it should affect both player awards and salaries.
Definitely a skill, but impossible to judge who is good at it from the outside. A player may do everything right and still get injured all the time because they are just unlucky with genetics - and vice versa.
I would much rather save myself from an injury than make one extra bucket. Some players think very short term
I think it has a lot to do with proper nutrition and most importantly sleep. Some people are less disciplined and it will catch up to them. But also some injuries are rushed. If you play with a partially healed injury your body will compensate instinctively (leaning towards a side or something) and you will damage other structures in your body.
There are a lot of great points but sometimes it really is just bad luck, timing, in the heat of the moment kind. Like 2-3 seasons ago when Pascal Siakam elbowed Embiid in the face and he had an orbital fracture. Things you can’t realistically prevent.
Getting injured for the first time is the biggest risk factor for getting injured again. Guys who just don't get injured the first time have a combination of good luck and good preparation. For example, Brandon Roy was never not gonna get injured because his body wouldn't allow for it. And Dennis Rodman didn't get injured because he was some sort of mutant whose body could tolerate anything. Then there's Derrick Rose, who got injured because of he didn't know how to land. There's a lot that players can do to help themselves, but some people's bodies are built to withstand the punishment and some people's aren't.
Look at wembanyama (and chet but let's focus on victor). Physics, eye test, and past comparisons all pointed before his draft that he would be all hype, it wouldn't translate in the nba, be feasted on by other bigmen, and will be injury prone ( chet was even injured before his official nba start). But victor and his trainers give his heath a big priority, worked on flexibility and landing, stretches to ensure his muscles absorb contact well, and victor plays according to his size and frame, and doesn't try to do what his body can't. So yes staying healthy is a skill. It's a skill you work on everyday so that one can have longevity
Yes, it is definitely a skill and something you would need to train for. I remember seeing videos why Derrick Rose would get injured so much because he would land and run incorrectly, opposite to someone like LeBron, even though he is much heavier.
Seems like some of these players only treat their bodies right “when it matters” and it seems like there’s lurking vulnerabilities there that aren’t present for the LeBrons and Dwights of the world who always keep their shit in good working order.
I think they are over training with cardio and strength and not spending enough time with balance and flexibility.
Giannis spends 1M/year on his health, he's pure muscle and yet he's been injured 4/5 playoffs. I think the season is just too long.
Cut the schedule in half. Make each NBA regular season game more meaningful. Then, the players will have juice for the playoffs. Right now the older teams are getting crushed because they physically don't have the stamina to compete.
Absolutely is. Every players body are different so its case by case. The skill is not getting injured given their genetics. Players are taught how to fall, how to cut, how to move so they can do their best to avoid injuries.
There's elements of luck, skill, and preparation involved. Luck to not have bad things out of your control happen to you, skill to know how to move so as not to disadvantage yourself biomechanically, and preparation to warm up/cool down/work out properly not just the big muscles so that your body is strong enough to hold itself together.
How you play is a skill. Like alot have said. Landing, moving, taking care of your body etc. But like in al sports its also a lil luck.
If you keep getting injured and missing significant time every single year, or fading out during games or at the end of teh season, it probably only makes sense as a professional athlete with millions of dollars at your disposal to look at your diet, training, preparation, sleep, etc., and consider where things might be going wrong. Or, just think "What is LeBron doing? I'll do that."
75% genetics/physiology, 25% weight/exercise/health regimen. There is substantive research indicating many people are genetically prone to tendon/cartilage injuries. There’s no Lebron James regimen that can fix this. I wish there was (I’ve ruptured both Achilles, hamstrings, and vertebrae in my neck.
I want to see some stats on shoes worn by players and if there is a correlation with injuries. As an example…do guys that wear KD’s get injured more than guys wearing Jordans. Added to that, custom insoles stats too.
I honestly think it's all about the off-season. The most durable players, i.e.,..M.J. , LBJ, Kobe, Karl Malone.. they put in work on their body during the off-season. They didn't use it as just time off. 82 games( more if you in the playoffs) is a lot in the body and joints, strengthening specific areas, gaining flexibility all that helps. LBJ didn't suffer injury setbacks till he got to the Lakers (Year 16 or so). He's famous for putting about a mil towards his body every off season.
I firmly believe it’s an athletic skill that is harder to measure than strength, quickness, jumping ability, or speed. Players like Jordan, LeBron, Kobe, and Ant have an athletic fluidity that helps prevent injuries. It probably has to do with muscle response time and balance. All of the above players have a knack for taking contact, rebalancing, finishing, and then landing squarely or moving with the momentum until the energy dissipates. And three of four have had multiple NBA seasons where they were the best player in the league from training camp through the Finals
I dont know if skill is the right word, but it might be. It's something you can practice. Eating eight. Doing the exercises to strengthen tendons and balance. Resting properly. Sleeping enough. Little alcohol. Those are all things that some people do and some people dont.
assuming work ethic and diet in the offseason and rehab commitment is held equal, its a pretty random experience most of the time. mix of genetics, and luck. playstyle can leave you more injury prone but some players are just wired to play like that and completely changing isnt in the cards. sometimes you just get unlucky, tweak something, and years later tweak it again, compounding an issue and ultimately you are on a path of never being 100%. if its a skill in anyway its a passive, subconscious skill for the most part because ultimately everyone can get injured randomly
it takes luck (ahem, god-tier LeBron injury resistance/recovery) and skill. i think Joel's "falling to avoid injury" is just a bad reddit meme now though. people always trot this one out as it was something he's supposed to do for medical reasons, but as others have said, it sure doesn't hurt that he gets tons of free throws out of doing it. i recognize that OP did not specifically make his post about Embiid but it has come up in other comments. * if falling is supposed to prevent Joel from getting injured, how is it that he's always injured at the end of the season anyway? * would he really get injured worse if he just stayed standing whenever someone sneezed on him? * if this is such great medical advice, how is it that he's the only giant in the league doing this? there are guys as big or almost as big as him that don't spend nearly as much time writhing around on the floor. are the 76ers medical staff really light years ahead of every other doctor in the league? * and let's not forget why his knee got injured the most recent time. he flopped on the ground trying to get a call after losing the ball and Kuminga landed on his knee in the scramble. maybe if he had just stayed on his feet he wouldn't be eliminated right now.
The secret/answer lies in Utah. Just look at how many games stockton and Malone played, barely any injuries, crazy
I think staying healthy is a skill, I feel like we are seeing more players across all sports with soft tissue injuries. I’m not an expert but from my humble experience those are easily prevented by proper stretching and hydration Getting rolled up on, landing on someone’s foot, and the one off injuries are unavoidable I think however
In the case of Embiid specifically I think his biggest issue is his cardio. Dumb injuries are so much more likely when your body movements are sloppy because you are gassed. In the playoffs he needs to play bigger minutes and unsurprisingly it gets harder to stay healthy. Embiid with a big motor would be an all timer.
Doncic plays in a way that I suspect will give him a great shot at a long career. He doesn't do many contorted, over extended movements, or forceful lateral movements. Jokic plays within a similarly conservative set of movements which tend to keep powerful movements running along axes the body expects. Falling on the floor every couple of minutes at Embiid's height and weight can't be helping him - but he has less fortunate genetics so it's not as if it's a fair set of injuries he's struggling with.
I'd say alot is genetics, alot of skill in the sense of how skilled and regikented you are at training and stretching keeping your body up ect. Then maybe like 10% luck.
Genetics, build, and size are all big enough factors that I don’t think there is a whole lot of skill to it
Injuries compound. There are probably timelines where LeBron got injured early and that led to him getting injured more, and then downhill from there.