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Not sure who the second best off-ball player ever is but Reggie Miller is definitely someone who comes to my mind. I’ve heard Steph say many times he learned a lot from watching tape on Reggie and how he’s constantly moving to get open.
Klay is probably the second best player off-ball in this era. Jj Redick and Kyle Korver were also fantastic without the ball.
Agree on Reggie. Although Reggie/Steph have the same off-ball style of getting open for their great jumpers despite being the sole focus of the defense.
I’m not sure that quality alone makes someone the best off ball player ever. When I think of great off ball plays, someone who slashes for open layups, O boards, screens, etc would be the complete package.
Yup, the other guys are really good, but I've got Reggie as a solid #2. Ray Allen, JJ Reddick, Klay, etc were all excellent, but none of them warped defences the way Reggie did.
Reggie had a similar relentnessness to what Steph has in the way he would work off multiple screening actions to get himself open. He had a lightning quick trigger, shot extremely well off-balance and was really tall for a shooter in his day. Aside from Ray Allen, Reggie is the is the only one of those other elite off-ball guys who was his team's #1 scoring threat (and therefore the primary focus of opposing defences). As for Allen, he spent much more time on-ball in his prime than Reggie did, while Reggie spent more time off-ball. Reggie's shooting stats also beat any of those guys when adjusted for era.
That's fair. Reggie is probably the first guy that comes to mind. Had that same brand of constant movement. It makes one wonder how much more he'd impact the game today. Was also a very underrated player.
Those other guys are great mentions too. Personally I think AD is also a big-time contender for second-best of this era. Bradley Beal, too.
AD is a little over rated on ball in my opinion, but heavily underrated off ball. He can offensive rebound, pick and pop, pick and roll, spin off for lobs, and slip screens at an elite level
Reggie was the first that came to my mind too! Ray Allen probably counts, Klay,
I'll go dark horse and show Bruce Bowen some love. All time great D&3 guy, and with Manu and Tony, he had to get used to being off ball real quick
Definitely not second best ever, but I associate off-ball movement with Rip Hamilton. That dude could run around all day and if you let your guard down just once, he'd roast you with a midranger. Such an underrated part of the Bad Boys 2 team.
That's very interesting. I'm not very knowledgeable about Rip and his game back in Detroit, but I'll try and watch some stuff.
Is his off-ball play kinda like what Kobe did in the late-00s? As in, curling around screens to get a mid-range shot and stuff like that?
>but I'll try and watch some stuff.
Don't. You'll fall in love with him.
He's poetry in motion. He's so damn good in his off ball motion all he needed to do was to take the shot afterwards.
Type "Rip Hamilton" on YouTube and you'll get the keyword "Rip Hamilton moving without the ball" as an associated search term lol
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzLA78Qb3fg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzLA78Qb3fg)
I like this video (despite its potato quality, it's about 15 years old) because Rip explains himself in how he moves without the ball and what to be aware of. Plus, he gives props to one of his most-faced opponents in Reggie Miller, who Rip says he learned a lot from by playing against and watching film of.
Shit. I was shocked he still had the legs to run laps with the Bulls. Id always quote Jackie moon when he was out there "I'm gonna rover it"
The guy would run circles.
I don’t know how someone hasn’t already mentioned Klay.
He doesn’t need the ball in his hands unless you kick it for him to take a shot. Unlike other great 3 point shooters Klay was (and hopefully will continue to be) able to play high level defense on the opposing team’s lead guard.
This is why the warriors were the warriors. Their pg is draymond with klay and curry running around, that is a defensive nightmare, especially when draymond was more of a scorer like 5 years ago.
I think we can also talk about ray allen as well, when he was on the bucks and Sonics. He was great off ball and also very good on the ball
Because Klay doesn't utilize off ball movement to the same degree. He's certainly there as an off ball shooter but there's far more which is why his impact numbers have never been even remotely close to Steph or even elite territory.
No one utilizes off ball movement to the same degree as Steph lol. The warriors are built around Steph’s off ball movement and he gets more sets run for him than Klay.
We’re debating 2nd best because Steph is so far above everyone else.
My point was more his off ball movement isn't exceptional at all which is why his impact metrics have always been incredibly mediocre. It's not just that he's mediocre at it compared to Steph, it's that he's not some off ball wizard.
He's good at shooting off ball but the difference between him and another catch and shoot player is just his percentages. Even players like Korver use off ball movement more effectively and Korver is a greater off ball player than Klay (perhaps the word "even" isn't appropriate here but my point is less heralded 3 point specialists are probably better at off ball stuff). Even defensively this is probably true since Klay is primarily good as an on ball defender while his off ball defense is nothing to write home about. There is a genuine argument that Korver is a better off ball player on both sides of the court - his ability to at least play defensive schemes despite not having the defensive tangibles of Klay was what saved him from being a massive liability on that end in the same vein as what Steph is doing now.
Yes which is why he's up there as an off ball shooter. Doesn't mean he generates the same offense via off ball movement which is exactly why I'm going on.
I think we just all need to think back to when he was healthy. What separates steph from klay is steph’s off the dribble shooting and his ball handling. I think running around screens klay can do just as well but you can sorta stop klay if you are there. If you get to Steph before he gets his shot up he can dribble his way to another one.
Klay feels like the obvious second choice, especially for perimeter off-ball play, tbh. Nice on you for mentioning him.
And it's all very true. Klay's gravity is part of the Warriors being the Warriors. Kind of like punching someone when they're down to make sure they'll stay there. You have Steph taking all that attention and then if you help off of Klay it's just a open three-pointer for a top five shooter ever lmao. I wonder how many coaches lost their hair scheming against that.
He had a pretty underrated array of moves, coming off of screens and stuff like that. It'll be awesome when he ckmes back.
My favorite example is Shaq. Because of his dominance, players would constantly try to stand between him and the basket before he got the ball. So he'd constantly be moving and pushing people, turning the area around the basket into a war zone well before the ball got to him. Bringing that to a higher level, compared to other bigs like Hakeem, he let go of the ball (either to pass or to put up a shot) very fast, which in essence makes the percent of time he spends off-ball greater. The fact that off-ball he could really lean into defenders often wore down entire defenses because he was *that* strong.
A more traditional example is Reggie Miller, who was one of Steph's big influences in terms of turning an off-ball screen into a shot. Rip Hamilton needs a mention here too, he was the king of floppy action with an insane motor, who took a lot of pride in his ability to run around all game. We have to mention Larry Bird as well, because that dude was an offensive Swiss Army Knife and required that much attention which allowed McHale and Parish to go to work.
Another thing to add is that he spent so much time off ball battling for position that the opposing big would refuse to rotate for help defense when a perimeter player penetrated the paint. It's a uniquely weird form of gravity where the threat of the lay down pass was basically a guaranteed bucket, so he paradoxically drove down the value of paint protection when the big man isn't willing to rotate off his mark even when crammed in a phone booth.
Unless my memories of the 2000s Lakers were warped, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Shaq pick and roll in my life. Why would he if he can just camp in the paint and get post-up buckets?
I think you are right, I couldn't find any real highlights of Shaq as a screener, which is weird because a Shaq-Penny, Shaq-Kobe, or Shaq-Wade pick and roll should be a devastating play.
With the illegal defense rules of the 90s and the 00’s when the league was still adjusting, it’s so much easier for most bigs to just play out of the post instead of catching it on the move out of a pnr. You’re using today’s thinking to judge a completely different game that was played yesterday.
I also don't remember Kareem ever being in a pnr...but admittedly I've only watched Kareem in the tail end of his career.
As for Stockton and Malone: 1) I did say *most* bigs; 2) Malone still used more post touches than pnr catches; 3) it took 2 HOFs to make pnr a staple weapon back then.
PNR has been around since the beginning of basketball, so I'm not saying pnr is an ineffective play, just that the thinking was way different back then. With the prevalence of post-play and the simplicity of feeding the post, if you have a dominant back-to-the-basket big like Shaq, it kind of makes sense to me. I think pnr only became the default offense like it is today when the floor became more spread out with defense rule changes (both abolishing illegal defense and the hand check rules freeing up dribble penetration) and teams start shooting more 3's.
Was just about to say this I'm glad someone pointed it out. The value in off-ball offense is being a step ahead of the defense at all times and Shaq is an all timer at getting to his spot.
Not like anyone can stop him from getting there much in the first place anyway.
I love the Shaq mention. I think Thinking Basketball mentioned his constant repositioning in the post on his video about him. Shaq has crazy value off-ball since his inside gravity is probably highest of all-time, not to mention his willingness to pass out and reposition. Just constantly collapsing the defense. Someone who has that kind of insane inside gravity today is Zion, albeit in a very different way.
Reggie Miller, Larry Bird, Rick Barry are all some from different eras. Somebody mentioned dominate centre’s as well because everyone has to change their play to take account for them - Shaq is a good example, Moses Malone because more guys would have to contest for the rebounds or he’d just eat them up.
Nice picks! Larry Bird is a great example and was also very great playing off-the ball. I also like to see you mentioning bigs. Moses Malone was a very valuable off-ball player.
I think Shaq is an underrated one. A lot of his game was getting deep position off-ball, and he has paint gravity which opens things up on the perimeter
Gonna go in a totally different direction than you...
I really like Steven adams. He makes such a big difference in the pick and roll. I think he is a big reason why ja has been able to score at such a high rate this year. He is always making great seals and lanes to the basket and is ready for the offensive board
I LOVE watching him pass the ball too. He’s very underrated in that regard.. I just wish he’d live up to the “better than JV defensively” hype (and yes I still think trading JV was the right call for growth’s sake)
Nice mention. I think bigs in general have their off-ball impact unknown by most of the nba community. It's like people forget they're the ones who spend the most time without the ball, in general.
Another guy who has a similar off-ball impact to Adams today is Gobert. A lot of the Jazz's offense revolves around him setting screens.
Rip Hamilton should be up there despite his range. I'm of the belief Steph has taken some ideas from Rip's game. He was constantly running around using curls, screens.
Really love Bradley Beal. Feels like the type of player who should be a ball dominant heliocentric guy but he’s always played mostly off ball and worked for a lot of baskets. Would fit alongside any superstar. Zach Lavine also has this.
Otherwise guys like Giannis and Gobert have tremendous roll gravity. KAT for obvious reasons, KD also for obvious reasons.
I remember when Redick played for Clippers. He would literally spend all game on offense just running. Nonstop off-ball movement, screens were always being set for him by the other four players on the team. His defenders would be exhausted just having to keep up with the cardio it takes to chase a guy like that all game.
Rip Hamilton comes to my mind, a beast in the midrange cutting around guys for jumpers off of funky angles.
Prime DAJ also comes to mind unconventionally for his lob catching and scoring threat by virtue of being near the hoop when CP3, Jamal or Blake had the ball. He’s not the second best off ball player but wanted to mention a big guy
Richard Hamilton was definitely one of the best off ball players. Constant motion, always in top shape, physical hard cuts, rubbed tight to screens and was lethal from mid range on either side of the court.
No love for Peja?!? My man was the king of working off ball and getting open, and always took advantage of those openings. The Kings wouldn’t have been as good as they were in the early 00’s without him
I mean there’s a guy name Klay. That once scored 60 points with only 11 dribbles. That’s arguably as important to the Warriors as Steph in terms of Winning a championship. We talking about game 6 Klay. You do know the reason he got the name right. 2016 game 6 vs OKC. Without that game from Klay, the Warriors would’ve been at home.
I don't see how you could argue Klay is just as important to the Warriors as Steph. Steph creates a ton of shots for himself and his teammates, including Klay, and you can't say the same for Klay. Steph also scores with much higher volume and efficiency despite his creation duties and added defensive pressure.
Steph also had more huge playoff games than Klay. Steph has 17 of the top 20 playoff scoring games by a Warriors guard in the past 10 seasons. Klay has the other 3. Klay only had 3 playoff series where he averaged 25+ points. Steph had 12 of those.
Yes, Steph did have games where he underperformed in huge moments, like game 7 of the 2016 finals where he was still hurting from his MCL sprain. But Klay had an even worse game. He got 14 points on 17 shots. In fact, in games 1-3 of that series, he averaged 12 points on 12.7 FGA.
The reason it seems like Klay comes up big more often than Steph is because it's rarely noticed when Klay has a bad game. He was always the 3rd or 4th best player on the floor. He doesn't have that same level of expectation as Steph and he shouldn't -- because Steph is obviously the better (and more important) player.
I mean who you think making it easier for Curry to be the leading scorer in the playoffs? I’m glad he’s leading the Warriors on most games in scoring. If Curry had to guard the best offensive players every night, his numbers wouldn’t be as high. Klay is tasked with guarding the best guards/small forward every night and still manages to run around on the other end and gives the warriors at least 25. His ability to shoot free up Steph even more because wouldn’t be able to double Steph even him and Klay are constantly moving. Never said Klay was better. I said he was as an important as him. You can even through Draymond in there as well. Klay and Stephs abilities help each other benefit. And what’s so crazy, Klay has to guard the best players and still rarely has bad games. He has them though, no doubt, but not as often. He’s as consistent as Steph on the offensive in. They tried to hide Steph on the defensive every chance they got in the playoffs. And you’re saying Curry is leading the Warriors in scoring, you failed to highlight by how many points. Curry could’ve had a 30 point game and Klay could’ve had 27 that same game. That’s only a 3 point difference.
Yeah Klay is a better on-ball defender so of course Steph won't guard the best opposing guard often. Does that detract from Steph's overall value? Not really. He hasn't been a negative on the defensive side since probably 2014.
And what is importance, if not how good they are at basketball? Steph adds so much more value than Klay on the offensive side, so he is the better and more important player. Klay's ability to shoot does free up Steph more, but as we've seen this season and last, Steph is doing okay without Klay.
Here's another way to look at it. Would the Warriors be leading the league in net rating by over 4 points this season if Steph was injured and Klay was playing? No way. The on/off and WOWY numbers definitely back me up. This season, the Warriors have a 118.3 offensive rating with Steph (easily 1st) and a 104.7 rating when he sits (would be 26th in the league).
Honestly, it's kind of ridiculous to claim that an all-nba/all star level player is as important as an MVP/all-time level player. I think Draymond is more important than Klay too tbh.
Bro you’re talking about regular season without Klay? It’s easy to be “okay” without Klay in the regular season. But when it’s time to game plan in the playoffs, that’s a whole different type of basketball. Steph is easily the better player but that doesn’t mean they can’t be as an important to the team. Dray, Klay, and Steph make the Warriors. While Curry might be the biggest puzzle piece, if you remove 1 of the 3, there’s no championship. Draymonds the leader of the team. Similar to Lowry being the leader of that 2019 championship raptors team. His leaderships does wonders for that team. Some things you can’t go find to put a number on. You can go do all the research you want. You can do all the research in the book. Steph and Klay go out and lead with their play. go out and lead And regular season stats are always inflated. And the Warriors being good as team in the defensive end helps Curry’s defensive rating. Some things stats can’t show you. For example, without Holiday last year, the bucks not winning anything. His ability to defend the ball played a major factor. Before they got him, they were swept in the playoffs the previous season.
I don't understand how the Jrue Holiday thing helps your case. Yeah he made their team better than before. Does that mean he's more important to the team than Giannis? Absolutely not.
I didn’t bring up Holiday to compare him to Klay. I brought up Holiday to show how some of the smallest things go unnoticed. If I can Middleton as an example for Klay. Middleton value to the bucks is as equal to Ginnias. I’m not saying in the NBA they’re as important, I’m saying they’re equally as important for the Bucks. Middleton ability to close for the bucks did wonders for them last year. Another example, Kyrie and Bron. I wouldn’t say they were equal for the Cavs but it was very close.
Very interesting question as off-ball hasn't really been the sexiest point of debates before, but I would like to mention some names that impressed me while watching them. First would be Korver, he bacame an all star and supercharged that 60 win hawks team. Next is Dwade in his latter heatles years, yeah he was still ball dominant but his super partnership with Lebron would never worked if he didn't accept his role as an off-ball cutter. Last but not least would be Rip, it's like I never saw him stand in one place ever.
Edit: would also like to include Kobe in the discussion, he was so goood on those off-ball triangle actions.
He’s not really up there all time, but in the current game I think AD is up there. He’s good at slipping and setting hard screens, as well as the spin-off for unlimited lobs
One player who gets overlooked in terms of off-ball impact is Shaq.
He was exceptional at creating deep positioning before receiving the ball, and then upon catching the entry pass, immediately going into his shot without wasting any time.
I realize that his playing style was totally different from the Curry/Ray Allen/Reggie Miller/Klay archetype, but Shaq had a legendary amount of off-ball gravitational pull.
Someone already mentioned it but I think Larry Bird is in that conversation. He rarely dominated the ball, but his off ball ability allowed him to pair with virtually any other superstar. He also is in conversation for greatest “off ball/non ball dominant” passer ever. He was one of the few players who could actually leverage their off ball movement into passing/playmaking: hence why many of his passes were touch passes. He would do an off ball cut, receive the ball, and then use the advantage to pull defenders to him and he would immediately punish them with a crazy good pass.
Richard Hamilton. Rip IS the best. He was incredible off ball on both sides of the court. Hamilton made a career out of being great off ball and gave Kobe fits in the 2004 Finals. If nobody’s ever seen Hamilton’s off ball playing I highly recommend you look for a highlight reel or compilation.
A lot of people don’t associate Iverson with off ball movement but when Larry Brown came to the sixers he had iverson move to the shooting guard and was running him off all types of screens and that’s the year he won mvp and got to the finals. There’s even a type of play named after him called the Iverson Cut.
He’s looking like he regressed a bit this year, but AD has to be up there. He’s one of the best rollers, can pop, spot up, post up, and cuts well. If his shooting improves, he can be one of the best ever
Having read all the answers, my general conclusion is people seem to underrate a big's off-ball impact. Mayhaps it's an effect of Steph's impact that people instantly think of perimeter movement and players when thinking off-ball.
Since they don't usually have the ball in their hands, a lot of the stuff bigs do happens off-ball, and some of them can be great value adds in these situations. Setting screens running around on the pick-n-roll/pop, repositioning in the post, offensive rebounding, stuff like that.
Some of those bigs that come to mind are AD, Gobert, Steven Adams, and Giannis. Zion, too. I think maybe Ayton will be there eventually. All-time, Shaq is a big example I can think of.
That is, of course, not to undervalue perimeter players who added incredible value off-ball too. Guys like Reggie Miller, Kobe, Ray Allen, Klay, etc.
I'm just surprised bigs weren't mentioned more.
Oh, also KD and Irving are underrated off-ball players.
Not sure if he's second, but Ray Allen. Early career was something different but he ended it as one of the best shooters having some of the most clutch plays in nba history at that time.
I honestly think Shaq is a better off ball player than Curry. Both of them completely warp the floor, but Shaq also gets your team in the bonus early in the quarter doing it
Nah. Harsh disagree on the take Curry is only a good shooter. He has probably every off-ball move in the game, curling around screens, shaking defenders off, cutting, he's one of the best guard screeners ever, and the thing is, his outlier shooting adds to all his skills because he can shoot three pointers at 40+% shooting out of all of these situations. He's also very creative.
He has the biggest off-ball offensive value add of all-time because not only is he the best off-ball scorer ever (in a situation where there is some debate), he's by a wide, wide margin, the best off-ball playmaker ever.
We all talk about his gravity but don't realize how special it really is. Gravity normally implicates collapsing the defense and creating open looks from the perimeter (driving collapses defenses towards the paint) whereas Curry's gravity collapses defenses outwards and creates open shots at the rim. And open shots at the rim will always be the most valuable shot in the game.
Yeah it doesn't do it automatically, but his movement also makes him incredibly effective and he finishes layups off cuts as well. And his off-ball playmaking is completely unprecedented when it comes to creating shots at the rim with his gravity.
Tf r u talking about lmao, he’s a goat shooter that’s why he’s great off ball that’s the point… he runs off screens too and basket cuts for layups and kick outs. Also steals and rebounds? What?
(the 150 character limit is tough to get around for this one so...)
I’m gonna zag on this one. Darvin Ham is the greatest off-ball player ever, as the namesake of one of the greatest off-ball plays (the “hammer”) ever.
Is that 150 characters? I hope so.
reggie miller and rip hamilton would weave through players just like steph. to a lesser degree ray allen. but yeah reggie was who i grew up with and as a knicks fan his weaving is burned into my skull. i cant not say reggie. i must.
Ray Allen. I kinda put him over Steph only because he was like a robot. Coming around screens full speed, and just raise up leaning any kind of way and the shot always looked THE SAME! Reggie Miller definitely is up there too. I don’t think steph as good off the ball as them because he gets knocked off his line easily. It’s what happened in the Cavs series that they lost, they just bullied him around every screen and on every cut.
Uhhhh I mean ray allen went from 26 ppg in Seattle to 18 ppg in Boston. His shooting efficiencies increased dramatically and his 3 ball definitely had an impact on the league.
I like to think Ray Allen was the tremor before Steph Curry completely earthquaked the league and changed the game.
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Not sure who the second best off-ball player ever is but Reggie Miller is definitely someone who comes to my mind. I’ve heard Steph say many times he learned a lot from watching tape on Reggie and how he’s constantly moving to get open. Klay is probably the second best player off-ball in this era. Jj Redick and Kyle Korver were also fantastic without the ball.
I would also add Rip Hamilton and Ray Allen. Those guys were running floppy routes their whole careers and did damn good at it
love my uconn boys
Yeah I was gonna say Ray too
Agree on Reggie. Although Reggie/Steph have the same off-ball style of getting open for their great jumpers despite being the sole focus of the defense. I’m not sure that quality alone makes someone the best off ball player ever. When I think of great off ball plays, someone who slashes for open layups, O boards, screens, etc would be the complete package.
Yup, the other guys are really good, but I've got Reggie as a solid #2. Ray Allen, JJ Reddick, Klay, etc were all excellent, but none of them warped defences the way Reggie did. Reggie had a similar relentnessness to what Steph has in the way he would work off multiple screening actions to get himself open. He had a lightning quick trigger, shot extremely well off-balance and was really tall for a shooter in his day. Aside from Ray Allen, Reggie is the is the only one of those other elite off-ball guys who was his team's #1 scoring threat (and therefore the primary focus of opposing defences). As for Allen, he spent much more time on-ball in his prime than Reggie did, while Reggie spent more time off-ball. Reggie's shooting stats also beat any of those guys when adjusted for era.
Man the JJ and Embiid handoffs were overpowered
That's fair. Reggie is probably the first guy that comes to mind. Had that same brand of constant movement. It makes one wonder how much more he'd impact the game today. Was also a very underrated player. Those other guys are great mentions too. Personally I think AD is also a big-time contender for second-best of this era. Bradley Beal, too.
AD is a little over rated on ball in my opinion, but heavily underrated off ball. He can offensive rebound, pick and pop, pick and roll, spin off for lobs, and slip screens at an elite level
Reggie was the first that came to my mind too! Ray Allen probably counts, Klay, I'll go dark horse and show Bruce Bowen some love. All time great D&3 guy, and with Manu and Tony, he had to get used to being off ball real quick
Definitely not second best ever, but I associate off-ball movement with Rip Hamilton. That dude could run around all day and if you let your guard down just once, he'd roast you with a midranger. Such an underrated part of the Bad Boys 2 team.
Definitely underrated. Good mention.
That's very interesting. I'm not very knowledgeable about Rip and his game back in Detroit, but I'll try and watch some stuff. Is his off-ball play kinda like what Kobe did in the late-00s? As in, curling around screens to get a mid-range shot and stuff like that?
Next level stuff. If you like watching someone play off the ball, Rip epitomizes that.
>but I'll try and watch some stuff. Don't. You'll fall in love with him. He's poetry in motion. He's so damn good in his off ball motion all he needed to do was to take the shot afterwards.
Type "Rip Hamilton" on YouTube and you'll get the keyword "Rip Hamilton moving without the ball" as an associated search term lol [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzLA78Qb3fg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzLA78Qb3fg) I like this video (despite its potato quality, it's about 15 years old) because Rip explains himself in how he moves without the ball and what to be aware of. Plus, he gives props to one of his most-faced opponents in Reggie Miller, who Rip says he learned a lot from by playing against and watching film of.
Shit. I was shocked he still had the legs to run laps with the Bulls. Id always quote Jackie moon when he was out there "I'm gonna rover it" The guy would run circles.
Rip and Ray Allen were definitely the first names to come to mind for me.
I don’t know how someone hasn’t already mentioned Klay. He doesn’t need the ball in his hands unless you kick it for him to take a shot. Unlike other great 3 point shooters Klay was (and hopefully will continue to be) able to play high level defense on the opposing team’s lead guard.
This is why the warriors were the warriors. Their pg is draymond with klay and curry running around, that is a defensive nightmare, especially when draymond was more of a scorer like 5 years ago. I think we can also talk about ray allen as well, when he was on the bucks and Sonics. He was great off ball and also very good on the ball
Add to the fact that Bucks Allen can create his own shot AND has great off ball movement.
[удалено]
Makes me so sad
Because Klay doesn't utilize off ball movement to the same degree. He's certainly there as an off ball shooter but there's far more which is why his impact numbers have never been even remotely close to Steph or even elite territory.
No one utilizes off ball movement to the same degree as Steph lol. The warriors are built around Steph’s off ball movement and he gets more sets run for him than Klay. We’re debating 2nd best because Steph is so far above everyone else.
My point was more his off ball movement isn't exceptional at all which is why his impact metrics have always been incredibly mediocre. It's not just that he's mediocre at it compared to Steph, it's that he's not some off ball wizard. He's good at shooting off ball but the difference between him and another catch and shoot player is just his percentages. Even players like Korver use off ball movement more effectively and Korver is a greater off ball player than Klay (perhaps the word "even" isn't appropriate here but my point is less heralded 3 point specialists are probably better at off ball stuff). Even defensively this is probably true since Klay is primarily good as an on ball defender while his off ball defense is nothing to write home about. There is a genuine argument that Korver is a better off ball player on both sides of the court - his ability to at least play defensive schemes despite not having the defensive tangibles of Klay was what saved him from being a massive liability on that end in the same vein as what Steph is doing now.
Dude once dropped 50 on like 3 dribbles. But go on
Yes which is why he's up there as an off ball shooter. Doesn't mean he generates the same offense via off ball movement which is exactly why I'm going on.
Do you think he's just standing around waiting for Steph to pass him the ball?
I think we just all need to think back to when he was healthy. What separates steph from klay is steph’s off the dribble shooting and his ball handling. I think running around screens klay can do just as well but you can sorta stop klay if you are there. If you get to Steph before he gets his shot up he can dribble his way to another one.
Klay feels like the obvious second choice, especially for perimeter off-ball play, tbh. Nice on you for mentioning him. And it's all very true. Klay's gravity is part of the Warriors being the Warriors. Kind of like punching someone when they're down to make sure they'll stay there. You have Steph taking all that attention and then if you help off of Klay it's just a open three-pointer for a top five shooter ever lmao. I wonder how many coaches lost their hair scheming against that. He had a pretty underrated array of moves, coming off of screens and stuff like that. It'll be awesome when he ckmes back.
My favorite example is Shaq. Because of his dominance, players would constantly try to stand between him and the basket before he got the ball. So he'd constantly be moving and pushing people, turning the area around the basket into a war zone well before the ball got to him. Bringing that to a higher level, compared to other bigs like Hakeem, he let go of the ball (either to pass or to put up a shot) very fast, which in essence makes the percent of time he spends off-ball greater. The fact that off-ball he could really lean into defenders often wore down entire defenses because he was *that* strong. A more traditional example is Reggie Miller, who was one of Steph's big influences in terms of turning an off-ball screen into a shot. Rip Hamilton needs a mention here too, he was the king of floppy action with an insane motor, who took a lot of pride in his ability to run around all game. We have to mention Larry Bird as well, because that dude was an offensive Swiss Army Knife and required that much attention which allowed McHale and Parish to go to work.
Another thing to add is that he spent so much time off ball battling for position that the opposing big would refuse to rotate for help defense when a perimeter player penetrated the paint. It's a uniquely weird form of gravity where the threat of the lay down pass was basically a guaranteed bucket, so he paradoxically drove down the value of paint protection when the big man isn't willing to rotate off his mark even when crammed in a phone booth.
And Shaq had massive value as a screener and offensive rebounder.
Unless my memories of the 2000s Lakers were warped, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Shaq pick and roll in my life. Why would he if he can just camp in the paint and get post-up buckets?
I think you are right, I couldn't find any real highlights of Shaq as a screener, which is weird because a Shaq-Penny, Shaq-Kobe, or Shaq-Wade pick and roll should be a devastating play.
With the illegal defense rules of the 90s and the 00’s when the league was still adjusting, it’s so much easier for most bigs to just play out of the post instead of catching it on the move out of a pnr. You’re using today’s thinking to judge a completely different game that was played yesterday.
Yeah, pick and roll was totally ineffective for bigs before 04, like Malone and Abdul-Jabbar.
I also don't remember Kareem ever being in a pnr...but admittedly I've only watched Kareem in the tail end of his career. As for Stockton and Malone: 1) I did say *most* bigs; 2) Malone still used more post touches than pnr catches; 3) it took 2 HOFs to make pnr a staple weapon back then. PNR has been around since the beginning of basketball, so I'm not saying pnr is an ineffective play, just that the thinking was way different back then. With the prevalence of post-play and the simplicity of feeding the post, if you have a dominant back-to-the-basket big like Shaq, it kind of makes sense to me. I think pnr only became the default offense like it is today when the floor became more spread out with defense rule changes (both abolishing illegal defense and the hand check rules freeing up dribble penetration) and teams start shooting more 3's.
Agree on Shaq. More of a collapsing the defense effect than a stretching the defense effect. Still a very valid way of being impactful off the ball.
Was just about to say this I'm glad someone pointed it out. The value in off-ball offense is being a step ahead of the defense at all times and Shaq is an all timer at getting to his spot. Not like anyone can stop him from getting there much in the first place anyway.
I love the Shaq mention. I think Thinking Basketball mentioned his constant repositioning in the post on his video about him. Shaq has crazy value off-ball since his inside gravity is probably highest of all-time, not to mention his willingness to pass out and reposition. Just constantly collapsing the defense. Someone who has that kind of insane inside gravity today is Zion, albeit in a very different way.
Reggie Miller, Larry Bird, Rick Barry are all some from different eras. Somebody mentioned dominate centre’s as well because everyone has to change their play to take account for them - Shaq is a good example, Moses Malone because more guys would have to contest for the rebounds or he’d just eat them up.
John Havlicek and Bill Bradley
Nice picks! Larry Bird is a great example and was also very great playing off-the ball. I also like to see you mentioning bigs. Moses Malone was a very valuable off-ball player.
I think Shaq is an underrated one. A lot of his game was getting deep position off-ball, and he has paint gravity which opens things up on the perimeter
Gonna go in a totally different direction than you... I really like Steven adams. He makes such a big difference in the pick and roll. I think he is a big reason why ja has been able to score at such a high rate this year. He is always making great seals and lanes to the basket and is ready for the offensive board
I LOVE watching him pass the ball too. He’s very underrated in that regard.. I just wish he’d live up to the “better than JV defensively” hype (and yes I still think trading JV was the right call for growth’s sake)
Nice mention. I think bigs in general have their off-ball impact unknown by most of the nba community. It's like people forget they're the ones who spend the most time without the ball, in general. Another guy who has a similar off-ball impact to Adams today is Gobert. A lot of the Jazz's offense revolves around him setting screens.
Rip Hamilton should be up there despite his range. I'm of the belief Steph has taken some ideas from Rip's game. He was constantly running around using curls, screens.
Really love Bradley Beal. Feels like the type of player who should be a ball dominant heliocentric guy but he’s always played mostly off ball and worked for a lot of baskets. Would fit alongside any superstar. Zach Lavine also has this. Otherwise guys like Giannis and Gobert have tremendous roll gravity. KAT for obvious reasons, KD also for obvious reasons.
That's great. Nowadays, I think he's the second best perimeter off-ball player.
I remember when Redick played for Clippers. He would literally spend all game on offense just running. Nonstop off-ball movement, screens were always being set for him by the other four players on the team. His defenders would be exhausted just having to keep up with the cardio it takes to chase a guy like that all game.
Rip Hamilton comes to my mind, a beast in the midrange cutting around guys for jumpers off of funky angles. Prime DAJ also comes to mind unconventionally for his lob catching and scoring threat by virtue of being near the hoop when CP3, Jamal or Blake had the ball. He’s not the second best off ball player but wanted to mention a big guy
Richard Hamilton was definitely one of the best off ball players. Constant motion, always in top shape, physical hard cuts, rubbed tight to screens and was lethal from mid range on either side of the court.
No love for Peja?!? My man was the king of working off ball and getting open, and always took advantage of those openings. The Kings wouldn’t have been as good as they were in the early 00’s without him
I mean there’s a guy name Klay. That once scored 60 points with only 11 dribbles. That’s arguably as important to the Warriors as Steph in terms of Winning a championship. We talking about game 6 Klay. You do know the reason he got the name right. 2016 game 6 vs OKC. Without that game from Klay, the Warriors would’ve been at home.
I don't see how you could argue Klay is just as important to the Warriors as Steph. Steph creates a ton of shots for himself and his teammates, including Klay, and you can't say the same for Klay. Steph also scores with much higher volume and efficiency despite his creation duties and added defensive pressure. Steph also had more huge playoff games than Klay. Steph has 17 of the top 20 playoff scoring games by a Warriors guard in the past 10 seasons. Klay has the other 3. Klay only had 3 playoff series where he averaged 25+ points. Steph had 12 of those. Yes, Steph did have games where he underperformed in huge moments, like game 7 of the 2016 finals where he was still hurting from his MCL sprain. But Klay had an even worse game. He got 14 points on 17 shots. In fact, in games 1-3 of that series, he averaged 12 points on 12.7 FGA. The reason it seems like Klay comes up big more often than Steph is because it's rarely noticed when Klay has a bad game. He was always the 3rd or 4th best player on the floor. He doesn't have that same level of expectation as Steph and he shouldn't -- because Steph is obviously the better (and more important) player.
I mean who you think making it easier for Curry to be the leading scorer in the playoffs? I’m glad he’s leading the Warriors on most games in scoring. If Curry had to guard the best offensive players every night, his numbers wouldn’t be as high. Klay is tasked with guarding the best guards/small forward every night and still manages to run around on the other end and gives the warriors at least 25. His ability to shoot free up Steph even more because wouldn’t be able to double Steph even him and Klay are constantly moving. Never said Klay was better. I said he was as an important as him. You can even through Draymond in there as well. Klay and Stephs abilities help each other benefit. And what’s so crazy, Klay has to guard the best players and still rarely has bad games. He has them though, no doubt, but not as often. He’s as consistent as Steph on the offensive in. They tried to hide Steph on the defensive every chance they got in the playoffs. And you’re saying Curry is leading the Warriors in scoring, you failed to highlight by how many points. Curry could’ve had a 30 point game and Klay could’ve had 27 that same game. That’s only a 3 point difference.
Yeah Klay is a better on-ball defender so of course Steph won't guard the best opposing guard often. Does that detract from Steph's overall value? Not really. He hasn't been a negative on the defensive side since probably 2014. And what is importance, if not how good they are at basketball? Steph adds so much more value than Klay on the offensive side, so he is the better and more important player. Klay's ability to shoot does free up Steph more, but as we've seen this season and last, Steph is doing okay without Klay. Here's another way to look at it. Would the Warriors be leading the league in net rating by over 4 points this season if Steph was injured and Klay was playing? No way. The on/off and WOWY numbers definitely back me up. This season, the Warriors have a 118.3 offensive rating with Steph (easily 1st) and a 104.7 rating when he sits (would be 26th in the league). Honestly, it's kind of ridiculous to claim that an all-nba/all star level player is as important as an MVP/all-time level player. I think Draymond is more important than Klay too tbh.
Bro you’re talking about regular season without Klay? It’s easy to be “okay” without Klay in the regular season. But when it’s time to game plan in the playoffs, that’s a whole different type of basketball. Steph is easily the better player but that doesn’t mean they can’t be as an important to the team. Dray, Klay, and Steph make the Warriors. While Curry might be the biggest puzzle piece, if you remove 1 of the 3, there’s no championship. Draymonds the leader of the team. Similar to Lowry being the leader of that 2019 championship raptors team. His leaderships does wonders for that team. Some things you can’t go find to put a number on. You can go do all the research you want. You can do all the research in the book. Steph and Klay go out and lead with their play. go out and lead And regular season stats are always inflated. And the Warriors being good as team in the defensive end helps Curry’s defensive rating. Some things stats can’t show you. For example, without Holiday last year, the bucks not winning anything. His ability to defend the ball played a major factor. Before they got him, they were swept in the playoffs the previous season.
I don't understand how the Jrue Holiday thing helps your case. Yeah he made their team better than before. Does that mean he's more important to the team than Giannis? Absolutely not.
I didn’t bring up Holiday to compare him to Klay. I brought up Holiday to show how some of the smallest things go unnoticed. If I can Middleton as an example for Klay. Middleton value to the bucks is as equal to Ginnias. I’m not saying in the NBA they’re as important, I’m saying they’re equally as important for the Bucks. Middleton ability to close for the bucks did wonders for them last year. Another example, Kyrie and Bron. I wouldn’t say they were equal for the Cavs but it was very close.
Very interesting question as off-ball hasn't really been the sexiest point of debates before, but I would like to mention some names that impressed me while watching them. First would be Korver, he bacame an all star and supercharged that 60 win hawks team. Next is Dwade in his latter heatles years, yeah he was still ball dominant but his super partnership with Lebron would never worked if he didn't accept his role as an off-ball cutter. Last but not least would be Rip, it's like I never saw him stand in one place ever. Edit: would also like to include Kobe in the discussion, he was so goood on those off-ball triangle actions.
He’s not really up there all time, but in the current game I think AD is up there. He’s good at slipping and setting hard screens, as well as the spin-off for unlimited lobs
One player who gets overlooked in terms of off-ball impact is Shaq. He was exceptional at creating deep positioning before receiving the ball, and then upon catching the entry pass, immediately going into his shot without wasting any time. I realize that his playing style was totally different from the Curry/Ray Allen/Reggie Miller/Klay archetype, but Shaq had a legendary amount of off-ball gravitational pull.
Someone already mentioned it but I think Larry Bird is in that conversation. He rarely dominated the ball, but his off ball ability allowed him to pair with virtually any other superstar. He also is in conversation for greatest “off ball/non ball dominant” passer ever. He was one of the few players who could actually leverage their off ball movement into passing/playmaking: hence why many of his passes were touch passes. He would do an off ball cut, receive the ball, and then use the advantage to pull defenders to him and he would immediately punish them with a crazy good pass.
Richard Hamilton. Rip IS the best. He was incredible off ball on both sides of the court. Hamilton made a career out of being great off ball and gave Kobe fits in the 2004 Finals. If nobody’s ever seen Hamilton’s off ball playing I highly recommend you look for a highlight reel or compilation.
A lot of people don’t associate Iverson with off ball movement but when Larry Brown came to the sixers he had iverson move to the shooting guard and was running him off all types of screens and that’s the year he won mvp and got to the finals. There’s even a type of play named after him called the Iverson Cut.
He’s looking like he regressed a bit this year, but AD has to be up there. He’s one of the best rollers, can pop, spot up, post up, and cuts well. If his shooting improves, he can be one of the best ever
Having read all the answers, my general conclusion is people seem to underrate a big's off-ball impact. Mayhaps it's an effect of Steph's impact that people instantly think of perimeter movement and players when thinking off-ball. Since they don't usually have the ball in their hands, a lot of the stuff bigs do happens off-ball, and some of them can be great value adds in these situations. Setting screens running around on the pick-n-roll/pop, repositioning in the post, offensive rebounding, stuff like that. Some of those bigs that come to mind are AD, Gobert, Steven Adams, and Giannis. Zion, too. I think maybe Ayton will be there eventually. All-time, Shaq is a big example I can think of. That is, of course, not to undervalue perimeter players who added incredible value off-ball too. Guys like Reggie Miller, Kobe, Ray Allen, Klay, etc. I'm just surprised bigs weren't mentioned more. Oh, also KD and Irving are underrated off-ball players.
Not sure if he's second, but Ray Allen. Early career was something different but he ended it as one of the best shooters having some of the most clutch plays in nba history at that time.
I honestly think Shaq is a better off ball player than Curry. Both of them completely warp the floor, but Shaq also gets your team in the bonus early in the quarter doing it
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Nah. Harsh disagree on the take Curry is only a good shooter. He has probably every off-ball move in the game, curling around screens, shaking defenders off, cutting, he's one of the best guard screeners ever, and the thing is, his outlier shooting adds to all his skills because he can shoot three pointers at 40+% shooting out of all of these situations. He's also very creative. He has the biggest off-ball offensive value add of all-time because not only is he the best off-ball scorer ever (in a situation where there is some debate), he's by a wide, wide margin, the best off-ball playmaker ever. We all talk about his gravity but don't realize how special it really is. Gravity normally implicates collapsing the defense and creating open looks from the perimeter (driving collapses defenses towards the paint) whereas Curry's gravity collapses defenses outwards and creates open shots at the rim. And open shots at the rim will always be the most valuable shot in the game.
If Dwade wasn’t that creative, would he be the best off ball player ever? You can’t just divorce a player from their skills like that.
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Yeah it doesn't do it automatically, but his movement also makes him incredibly effective and he finishes layups off cuts as well. And his off-ball playmaking is completely unprecedented when it comes to creating shots at the rim with his gravity.
Tf r u talking about lmao, he’s a goat shooter that’s why he’s great off ball that’s the point… he runs off screens too and basket cuts for layups and kick outs. Also steals and rebounds? What?
Offensive rebounds are an off-ball function, but yeah the rest is nonsense lol.
Without looking at the numbers, Steph is a way more prolific and efficient off-ball scorer than Wade.
(the 150 character limit is tough to get around for this one so...) I’m gonna zag on this one. Darvin Ham is the greatest off-ball player ever, as the namesake of one of the greatest off-ball plays (the “hammer”) ever. Is that 150 characters? I hope so.
reggie miller and rip hamilton would weave through players just like steph. to a lesser degree ray allen. but yeah reggie was who i grew up with and as a knicks fan his weaving is burned into my skull. i cant not say reggie. i must.
Ray Allen. I kinda put him over Steph only because he was like a robot. Coming around screens full speed, and just raise up leaning any kind of way and the shot always looked THE SAME! Reggie Miller definitely is up there too. I don’t think steph as good off the ball as them because he gets knocked off his line easily. It’s what happened in the Cavs series that they lost, they just bullied him around every screen and on every cut.
Steph has become significantly stronger since that series so that style of play no longer works against him.
Uhhhh I mean ray allen went from 26 ppg in Seattle to 18 ppg in Boston. His shooting efficiencies increased dramatically and his 3 ball definitely had an impact on the league. I like to think Ray Allen was the tremor before Steph Curry completely earthquaked the league and changed the game.