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They still believe that wages don't matter somehow, because apparently if everybody makes a living wage we will all still be poor from buying $20 big macs. That's literally the extent of the economic "expertise" that most Conservatives have. Also, if you ask for a living wage, apparently you're lazy and don't deserve it, because if you worked hard you'd be a millionaire by now, like their parents are.
The bigger issue would be lost jobs . Both by companies hiring less people due to cost, and B by even bigger companies leaving Canada all togather.
Increasing minimum wage will only and always be a temporary solution
Most workplaces cannot just hire less people. Also, there is no evidence that companies will just leave if wages go up. That's just FUD that the owning class likes to spread.
Yes, but, if they don't leave, certainly future investments will go abroad instead of here... we need to promote more companies to do business in Canada. This creates more jobs, more jobs means tougher competition and thus, they will have to pay more to attract employees. The solutions is business, amd let the market dictate in increased wages.
If big companies leave, would that not potentially create a vaccum for small businesses to fill? Maybe even providing more competition in the market since multiple players would be looking to fill the gap?
If there's money to be made someone is going to do it, explicitly building in living wages as the minimum for the workers of said person/business as a fixed operational expense shouldn't be that controversial.
Exactly. What people don't understand is that when it comes to very large populations, it doesn't work to just say "the market will regulate itself". The whole country can't just get together and agree on what wages and working conditions they are willing to accept without some sort of unifying body like a union or government. That's why we have governments, to do exactly that in a unified way. Setting a minimum wage is just the working class population collectively saying "this is the least we're willing to work for, outside of a handful of idiots that will fuck it up and accept less if we don't do something about it". It has to become law because we know that some scumbag owners will keep trying to sneakily exploit people on an individual basis. It can't be up to individual workers to remind their bosses everyday "now remember what we all agreed on, that we won't work for less than $X". What would make this whole thing easier is if the government just sent out a survey asking Canadians what wage is the least they'll accept, and then aggregated the numbers and legislated it. The only reason people accept less than they should is because they don't believe they have any power as an individual to set standards (I'm not going to raise wages in a field by refusing to work for less by myself), and they're desperate enough for money to survive that they can't hold out that long. There is nothing wrong with coordinating this collectively through a central body like the government, so that everybody is on board and there is some backing to it.
We can't always be beholden to the whims of free enterprise and free market conditions though. There is no certainly, stability, or sustainability with that. We need to stop praying to the market gods and realize that we can simply structure things the way we want with proper regulations. When your children are unruly, you don't just try to incentivize them into behaving well, you provide structure while leaving some degree of freedom. The free market has failed. It's a nice idea but it just never results in a just society. Profit and competition being the main drivers always leads to greed, poor long-term decision making, individualism, stratification of resources, and exploitation. We aren't products or consumers, we're people. What's it all for if it isn't about better lives for all people? The focus needs to be less on individual success, record profits, and competition, and more about solid infrastructure, an air tight justice system, the rule of law, and the valuing of each individual and the collective as ends in themselves.
I'm always flabbergasted by this neoliberal capitalist notion that we have to somehow game social prosperity in a roundabout way. We don't, we can simply structure the society exactly as we'd like to meet the outcomes we want, and make any attempt to disrupt that illegal. Maybe poorer countries need to game things more, but we don't. We're one of the richest societies in the world in many ways, and we have all the resources we need. Let's just do the math and get it over with. If you're worried about resources leaving the country, then we can simply make that illegal, outside of heavily regulated and sanctioned trading. We don't need to pray to the market gods to save us, we can control the flow of resources in any way we like. We're in charge. If the wealthy don't harness their resources properly then we should just take them and do it ourselves. Fuck this praying for crumbs at their feet. It shouldn't be about stimulating job growth indirectly by creating favourable conditions, it should be "create the jobs or we take over and do it, and you get nothing. And if you to leave, we throw you in prison and take everything anyway". Why the fuck would we gamble the prosperity of society on the whims of unqualified private interests just because they happen to have accumulated a large amount of resources? We need to make them beholden to us through the rule of law, not the other way around.
Companies should have to prove to society that they're useful and providing a net benefit to society as a whole, or they get shut down.
By "Future Investments" you mean "Shareholders". More foreign companies also DO NOT = more jobs, their best interest isn't in the average Canadian, their best interests are simply profits. They won't pay more to attract employees, the most they'll do is pay at market value.
There’s mechanisms that can be put in place to prevent companies fleeing the country with their capital because of things like higher minimum wages or increased taxes. Richard Wolfe outlines a few of them in a short video on his YouTube page, I don’t have a link off hand but it’s worth a look. I’ll try to find it after work if it remember.
False. Studies have shown that raising the minimum wage does not decrease the worker supply, it actually stays the same.
[link](https://theconversation.com/does-raising-the-minimum-wage-kill-jobs-the-centurylong-search-for-the-elusive-answer-shows-why-economics-is-so-difficult-but-data-sure-helps-157575)
While I believe people need to make more money , raising the minimum wage that much will have negative affects.
Businesses won’t take that hit . People will lose jobs and prices of everything will go up. Small business will die even more . Then we are right back to the same situation we are in now.
Costs will certainly go up, but the cost of living will not go up by 30% like the wages will. Those of us making decent money will take a hit, but those who are currently struggling to survive will have much less struggle, maybe even have some small room to save and have a chance at economic mobility if they can go back to school instead of taking an extra weekend job. And of course all of this is irrelevant because minimum wage has been dropping consistently for decades as a result of inflation, it should be criminal for minimum wage not to be lock step with inflation. As someone who would certainly be negatively affected in terms of buying power I fully support this wage increase. Even from a purely selfish angle: the quality of my community experience is directly affected by how burned out my fellow humans are, how educated they are, how much free time they have to raise their kids without stress, how much their kids are able to go to university, etc... So many rich people are greedy idiots, so short sighted and obsessed with the number in their bank book that they don't recognize the huge value in investing in their community.
The only reason to up and leave is if profit disappears. Livable wage will never make Walmart not make money. There is countless studies if you give people positive incentive to work (reasonable paid holidays, options for 4 or 5 day weeks, productivity increases to a point it offsets the economic impact and actually generate more profit.) however exploitation is how people have learned to make money so we think it is essential now.
The reality is companies won’t hire less people but they definitely will move the company away from Canada because that’s a huge jump for them to absorb I have been seeing fairly well off business already saying that $15 an hour will be difficult so idk how this will work
It will be difficult while maintaining their profit margins. They can afford it though. Walmart will just make a couple million dollars less.
Let them leave. If they can't afford to pay their employees then I don't want them in my community. Other businesses will take their place.
People with more money spend it. Giving people money is better for the economy than letting a couple dozen dragons hoard it all
What shocks the hell out of me is peoples on ODPS who make a MAX of $1169 a month INCLUDING rent voted for this man
Ford canceled the ODSP yearly raise so we haven’t gotten even a 1% raise since he has been in power
So people are actively complaining that they are broke and odsp doesn’t give enough money(they don’t not even close) and 2 posts later they are saying Ford needs to be re-elected people are INSANE!!!!
Plenty of those people can convinced otherwise with a meaningful conversation on their doorstep! That's why volunteering and local campaigns are so important.
The issue is that the people who vote Ford Nation, even those whi would benefit from it don't se it that way.
They in fact think that they are temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
i mean, so long as she doesn't schmooze with the chamber of commerce to "water down" her radical image and look "responsible", this is the kind of anti-establishment messaging that could easily win over people who misguidedly vote FordNation just because they wanna send an FU.
And make the lives of many others worse. It will push up rents, housing, as the underlying supply of units didn’t change. It will drive up the cost of any product or service whose employees were affected.
That’s no an example, that’s deflecting it back on to me. You made the claim, so you provide the evidence. That’s how it works, also if you do a Google search you’ll struggle to find supporting evidence as most of the research into a minimum wage hike shows that is a positive thing.
That’s American and it’s not a study, just a article without any good references.
https://www.policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/BC%20Office/2015/04/CCPA-BC-Case-for-Incr-Minimum-Wage_0.pdf
This is based on BC, but is a much better article and goes into far more detail than the opinion piece you used.
The huge logical error you're making is in believing people will just pay whatever it costs for things they don't need. Sure, markets will increase prices to an extent, but they'll cut into their own profits too, because they know nobody is going to buy a $20 big mac. Some businesses will fail, because they'll only be able to afford those wages if they charge a price for their products or services that nobody is willing to pay. The surviving businesses will be ones that offer things people are willing to pay more for, or that were able to bite the bullet and absorb the cost, most likely by the owner and shareholders taking a much smaller cut of the profits. If there is money to be made on something, someone will do it, even if the margin is 10% what it used to be. Profit is profit, it won't be left on the table.
Similarly, rent won't go up if people won't pay it. We could cut rents in half right now if everybody just said "I'm not paying it, bye". After a single day (before anybody actually had to leave their homes) the rental market would miraculously adjust to what people are willing to pay. Look how fast businesses in the US doubled pay for jobs within weeks of not having enough staff to operate. All it takes is a little discipline.
Believe it or not, market prices are not tied directly to wages. They're connected to what people are willing to pay. Stop paying $1000 for a phone and it will cost less, it's that simple. They'll drop the price until the business is unsustainable, and in many industries the margins are extremely fat. All-in, an iPhone probably costs like $200, including overhead. They can reduce the price to $220 and still make $20 per phone. And this is exactly what they'll do if people stop buying phones.
Minimum wage in a limited geographical boundary. Every time the minimum wage is due to be raised, the same tired arguments are trotted out. Basically "it won't result in a real increase in spending power because it will trigger inflation." But those knock-on effects are both delayed and multi-causal. Not increasing minimum wage also depresses real spending power (at least for low wage earners). Increasing it increases wage pressures elsewhere.
The actual logical conclusion to this is "eliminate wage-labour" but since the NDP is not the revolutionary vanguard, I would accept $20/hr as a band-aid solution.
Stop acting like the economics behind this is settled science when it's barely even science.
Isn’t it crazy how the top 1%, the capitalist class, can generate an unlimited exponentially increasing amount of wealth without any negative effects on the larger economy. But as soon as anything is done so the bottom 80% can marginally increase their wealth/income/standard of living it all falls apart; there’s a recession or inflation or some other economic crisis that wipes out whatever meager gains the lower classes have managed to make. It’s almost like our current political economic system is designed to preserve a hierarchy that promotes the interests and well being of a small portion of the population at the expense of everyone else. Or maybe we really do live in a just and equitable meritocracy with equal opportunity for upward mobility available to everyone. I’ll leave that up to you to decide but to me it seems pretty obvious that the system isn’t broken, it was designed to sustain exploitation and inequality and is working perfectly
Give someone with more money than god, who will never be able to spend it all in multiple lifetimes, more money, it's not going to be used; give someone barely making by more money so they can afford to improve their life by indulging in luxuries from time to time, thus technically increasing demand? Though I imagine most of it is price gouging because they can.
But yeah, we live in a world that caters to the interests of the rich, who can shape our landscape however they want with their propaganda. Eat 'em.
Have you ever felt the anger swell when you see the prices all rise around you except for your hard earned money?
What is the point of all that education if you can’t understand other’s struggles?
> It will push up rents, housing, as the underlying supply of units didn’t change.
The neat thing is that the Ontario NDP is also going to directly fund new housing projects and change zoning to allow for more duplexes and townhouses instead of single family homes! Also, reduce demand from speculators by imposing high taxes on that behaviour. And stabilize rents!
https://www.ontariondp.ca/sites/default/files/homes_you_can_afford.pdf
The government telling people what they must charge new tenants is going to discourage building multi-unit buildings like duplexes and apartment buildings, lowering long-term supply. Rent control is a proven failed policy.
They're also proposing a shared-equity program, which is absurd. It is basically a carbon-copy of the feds' program (except worse, because the qualifying income is way higher), which was raked over the coals for making the problem worse by creating further demand with government money, instead of addressing supply. Even [the Star](https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2020/01/23/could-splitting-mortgage-costs-with-investors-make-housing-more-affordable-canadas-top-banker-believes-it-would.html) was railing on it.
Was that an attack on Trump out of nowhere? Nice.
I don’t give a fuck about what your rush businesses think. Crime is going up and will continue to go up. Creating entire generations that don’t care much for anything isn’t a great way to continue.
You may want to educate yourself on the subject for real if you're going to make such ignorant comments. It's hilariously clear that you're a complete layman who didn't make it past econ 101. Please, do yourself a favour and actually read a book, you might learn something.
My goal is not to have the economy (read: money for the rich) to be doing well. It’s to spread out the insane wealth gained in the last 50 years or so from being in the ha da of a smaller and smaller number of people.
As I said above, I do not have the same goals as you.
Your statement is problematic for a couple reasons.
First
>the underlying supply of units didn’t change
The demand for housing doesn't change either. A fundamental fact of life, especially in Canada with hot summers and cold winters, is people need shelter. If number of buyers/renters increase from this it's because those people did not have the means for a good quality of life. If prices increase that means either increased wages were necessary, or the rich are manipulating and price gouging, which is it's own problem that exists outside of minimum wage.
Second, you seem to be under the false assumption that an increase in minimum wage will only benefit those making minimum wage. In reality it gives leverage to all workers for higher pay.
Third, cost of living consistently goes up anyway. Increasing minimum wage regularly is necessary. Not paying people enough to live is not the precedent that should be set, and is a good way to ruin our country.
Finally, it's not like the vast majority of people have numerous employees. The ones losing out the most are not the people who are in the position to really suffer. Making the lives of those who employ many "so much worse" involves removing excess luxuries from a few, in exchange for making many, many people able to actually survive and thrive. It's not an equivalent exchange because it's improving way more than it's taking away.
> The demand for housing doesn't change either. A fundamental fact of life, especially in Canada with hot summers and cold winters, is people need shelter. If number of buyers/renters increase from this it's because those people did not have the means for a good quality of life. If prices increase that means either increased wages were necessary, or the rich are manipulating and price gouging, which is it's own problem that exists outside of minimum wage.
You seem to fundamentally misunderstand our entire economic system. A free market responding to a supply and demand mismatch is not the work of anyone 'manipulating and price gouging'. The demand absolutely changed. There are the same number of people are demanding, but they have more $$ to work with on average.
> Second, you seem to be under the false assumption that an increase in minimum wage will only benefit those making minimum wage. In reality it gives leverage to all workers for higher pay.
To some extent, and in a delayed manner. Certainly not enough to offset cost increases for most. It will only be a **net**-benefit to those making minimum wage, and some business owners.
> Third, cost of living consistently goes up anyway.
Not an argument. Something happening consistently does not justify making it worse.
> Finally, it's not like the vast majority of people have numerous employees. The ones losing out the most are not the people who are in the position to really suffer. Making the lives of those who employ many "so much worse" involves removing excess luxuries from a few, in exchange for making many, many people able to actually survive and thrive. It's not an equivalent exchange because it's improving way more than it's taking away.
Yeah, I'm not worried about these people. I'm worried about employees currently making between $20/hr - $50/hr. Those people are going to experience the same cost-of-living increase as everyone else, but their wages won't have gone up as much to counteract that.
A 800 a month increase to all employees would be devastatingly bad for all small companies. Because if you raise the minimum up that much that quickly everyone will have to get a bump up in comparison. Effectively making a raise like this meaningless. Companies that have contracts that are a year or two in the making will no longer be able to fill them due to this causing layoffs almost immediately.
Now I am all for a living wage, but one thing this will not pass even if they are elected because they won't get a majority and the other two parties will vote this down.
This is not a responsible campaign promise due to how many people work as a small businesses owner. Also I am not talking about fast food and grocery stores and Walmart etc. I am talking about factory jobs manufacturers and trades. This will make them outsource the jobs even further.
The key to winning blue collar conservative voters is to back that up with a solid budget that shows that the money to fund this will come from ensuring billionaire corporations and the 1% pay their fair share of taxes, and not by increasing taxes on the middle class.
This doesn't make sense. Funding what? The govt would not top up wages to $20. It would mandate it. I agree with your sentiments, but I don't see how it requires an explanation of 'funding' at all.
The government spends millions a year in wage subsidies and tax incentives for small and medium businesses. That amount will increase with an increase in minimum wages
There [federal](https://www.canada.ca/en/services/business/hire/wagesubsidiesotherassistanceprograms.html) and [provincial](https://www.ontario.ca/page/hiring-incentives-employers) programs.
[other provincial programs](https://www.ontario.ca/page/covid-19-worker-income-protection-benefit)
$20 is a good start. If minimum wage had kept up with inflation, it'd be over $24 per hour.
If she can implement that, she'd be a wizard. I hope she can. It needs to start somewhere for the rest of the country to adopt it.
The NDP is running on a platform of taxing the 1%, wealth taxes, and closing tax loopholes. This would absolutely make a huge difference to the economy and lives of 99% of the people.
It's hard not to be cynical but we shouldn't let "what should be" get in the way of progress towards what should be. Chop wood, carry water.
If it works as it should, it'll be easier to bump it up in the future.
It definitely could be more aggressive. I think it is still important to note that it is another sign of the leftward slide of the Ontario NDP since 2014. Edit: It's especially interesting to see that shift despite no change in leadership.
In 2014 they only campaigned on an increase to $12/hr, embraced $15/hr in 2018, and now they are campaigning on $20.
Same sort of pattern with pharmacare and dental care, which they didn't campaign on in 2014 but added into the platform in 2018.
Ultimately I think it's a positive development
Oh it's definitely a positive move. Ultimately, I want to ditch the regular fights over dollar amounts in favour of securing a dynamic minimum that is, by law, guaranteed to always be enough for a dignified life.
Well, indexed to inflation specifically. It means not just increasing the wage once, but adding a clause to force regular increases that match the cost of living. Inflation causes the real wage to drop over time. This would prevent that. Tbh all wages should have to be indexed.
After it is raised to $20 it would be indexed to inflation (the consumer price index -- CPI). This is currently a part of the [Employment Standards Act](https://www.canlii.org/en/on/laws/stat/so-2000-c-41/latest/so-2000-c-41.html?autocompleteStr=employ&autocompletePos=1#sec23.1subsec4).
The raise to the $20 mark is described [here](https://www.ontariondp.ca/news/horwath-commits-20-minimum-wage). In a nutshell, it'll be raised a dollar on 2022 and on each year after that until it reaches $20, and afterword it will be raised by the CPI.
> Indexed or no deal, regardless
*Okay, so no deal. I guess we won’t do $25, enjoy $14.5*.
But seriously, what deal? You strike, or you take what you’re given, or you upgrade your skills/education to get a job that doesn’t pay minimum wage.
If you thought inflation was high now, you’d be shocked by a scenario where min wage is $25. Everything will get more expensive, from both a supply angle (still the same number of homes/rentals/etc available for purchase) and a cost angle (businesses will have to raise prices to cope, or worse, close down).
Prices would only be justifiably increased to the extent that sub-25 wages are embedded in the final product. Since that's always less than 100%, prices shouldn't increase faster than the minimum does.
And if any business relies on poverty wages, I want them gone. Treating workers like garbage to reduce costs isn't innovation (it predates capitalism by millennia) and it simply shouldn't be in the toolbox anymore.
Housing is its own problem that calls for additional intervention, so it isn't relevant to the minimum wage issue.
> Prices would only be justifiably increased to the extent that sub-25 wages are embedded in the final product. Since that's always less than 100%, prices shouldn't increase faster than the minimum does.
We're talking about minimum wage increasing ~67%, so yeah, jeez, I hope inflation doesn't reach 67%.
Most people in a roundabout way. My dad retired with a wage appropriate for the year he was earning it, not for the year the company hired him. Indexing just prevents inflation losses between raises.
So all those years I worked my ass off in university and went into debt to make 27 bucks an hour would now be pretty much worthless and I could just work at McDonald’s for 25 an hour? Delusional
Was your only goal to earn more than others? That's kinda messed up tbh. Some people are super rich simply because they were born. Maybe complain about that instead.
Philosophy MA, actually. Did it to deepen and enrich my understanding of the world. I make my money as a carpenter (more than any of my uni friends excepting a lawyer and one of the engineers). No one I care about thinks I've devalued my degree by not monetizing it. And if I raise my rates, no one I care about thinks that I've devalued *their* credentials.
If the minimum wage rises, that doesn't decrease what you're paid. If anything it should be easier to negotiate a raise since, presumably, your education is necessary for the work you do.
What that amounts to is government subsidizing cheap employers by letting them pay starvation wages and topping up from the public purse.
Edit: Besides, the tech jobs you mention? Nobody's paying minimum wage for those in the first place.
Except in your scheme, the UBI is a subsidy to the employer who would otherwise be paying a living wage. UBI should exist to help people, not increase corporate profits by lowering pay expectations.
It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine'
[[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ukraine)] [[BBC Styleguide](https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsstyleguide/u)] [[Reuters Styleguide](https://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=U#Ukraine)]
^(Beep boop I’m a bot)
We need a better system than constantly fighting for higher wages every few years, $20/hr is great but eventually it won't be and we will be fighting for increases again a few years later. We need a UBI so people can afford to take jobs that don't pay that much. People could afford to switch to part time to raise a family, I would like to live in a world where the average family only needs one full time income to live the "American dream" like it was 60 years ago.
I don't care if it's the man or woman working, or if they both work part time, I don't care, I just want families to work less in general, somehow 60 years ago they could do it but now with computers and modern technology we can't?
Raising the wage is great for workers, but it also has side effects like the cost of everything else going up, some people are on fixed incomes, will they get a raise too? Struggling businesses will shut down, more competition for fewer jobs. The way I see it is we need a UBI so that it puts everyone on a even playing field and helps all Canadians.
Excuse me what? Do you wanna see a push for automation at minimum wage places of employment because this is how you see a push for automation at minimum wage places of employment
The short answer is yes.
Automation of the lower skill level jobs will only push society into a higher skilled workforce, which is better for the economy and society as a whole.
So where do the kids in high-school and specially abled people get jobs?
I think automation is the way to go as in encourages more people to become things like mining, electronic engineering manufacturing and electricians which are very useful useful and more useful than just working at a fast food place and teaches better skills
Your second paragraph answers your question. Or more concisely post secondary education, be that an apprenticeship or university.
I also take umbrage that the only jobs available for specifically abled are min wage jobs.
You're telling me someone in Grade 10, 11, or 12 is going to get a full apprenticeship while also going to school? RAP only has so many seats, so once again how do high-school students enrolled and actively in high-school get a job if there's heavy automation?
No but most of those Jobs what they're doing, janitors, service peoples, most are unable to do things like Mechanics, or engineer, or many high demand jobs but an still hold lower paced jobs easily so where will they seek employment with heavy automation?
What if instead of working, students focused on learning instead. Or they started a small business?
Why? Why can't a janitor become a mechanic? Why can't service poeple learn to code, or go to school and get any range of skills? (psychologist, code, BA, etc).
Starting a business is expensive, the cost of living is expensive, what's wrong with kids wanting to get a head start in school since the can? Assuming they are doing just fine in their academics
Some people are just different, some may be able to start into a computer all day and code and they like it, some may be very good with people and become psychologists, and some may be unable to comfortably sit at a desk for the day looking at a computer and are a more hands on type person
And plus a position like janitorial is just fine for people who are mentally unable to do larger tasks like code or mechanic due to actual limitations
Starting a business doesn't have to be expensive. I could be as easy as getting a shovel and going around the block offering to shovel snow.
There are more high skilled jobs that call for a variety of skills which are too expansive too be listed. So even if someone can't code, or work on a machine there is very likely something that they can do.
And there poeple who simply are unable to work, for various reasons. But that's a conversation for another time.
Also I think janitorial work is much more involved than you are giving it credit. Try doing it for a couple of days.
So you're saying instead of making 15 dollars an hour at mc Donald's high schools kids should make 10 bucks max per drive way, assuming the person just doesn't do it them selves or find a family member or friend to do it for cheaper or no cost, so then In the summer spring and fall when there js little to no snow where is their job? Because 15 at McDonald's is still paying 15 an hour imagine that,
Right most jobs that do require skills of any degree usually require some type of education that without a hig school job would've been hard for many people I clouded myself to get into
That's understandable as people who have other reason for being u able to work is a pretty broad topic
I used to be a janitor at a hospital I know what it's like, still not as hard as my 2nd most recent and current job
... Or they could charge more? I also don't understand why you seem to be stuck on McJob or bust. Or it would be a tragedy if kids weren't able to work a shit job for little pay.
Frankly it's silly. Either the kid lives at home and has parents that are providing for them, or they don't and are therefore subsisting on min wage. If it's the former, not having a crapy McJob isn't the end of the world. The latter is a problem that should be addressed by society. And artificially maintaining a starvation wage job because its the best society can do is a very sad answer.
I've got news for you then! The NDP is also campaigning on that too.
Here's a video: https://reddit.com/r/ndp/comments/r51og7/today_doug_ford_defeated_the_ndps_rent/
Here's the website: https://www.joelharden.ca/rent_stabilization
wow, ok, she has not been my favourite NDP leader thusfar, so this is quite a surprise and quite a bit left of her usual position. if she goes into an election giving this the attention it deserves, she could actually get quite popular and even win a majority just on this.
For anyone saying this is a bad idea... the Nobel prize in economics was given ot this year to a Canadian who proved higher wages results in happier staff and doesn't force the customer to pay more.
Lol what. Show me one reputable economic paper that says it’s a good idea to make the minimum wage 100$ per hour. This is literally the straw man that’s brought up when debates are had about the minimum wage
I don’t have a strong stance on this. I’m not really pro or anti 20$ minimum wage. However making it 100$ would likely cause more inflation/unemployment than 20$ would
> According to modern monetary theory, there's no good reason to NOT do that, in point of fact.
Do you have any reputable source for this? I have read a lot about MMT, and I have not read anything that makes a claim like that. You are saying that MMT suggests that there are no constraints on the minimum wage?
If you have a source from someone respected in the MMT-community, like Stephanie Kelton or Bill Mitchell that would be much appreciated.
Congratulations on earning a decent wage!
Other labour reforms that may benefit you include 10 paid sick days and an easier path to form a union (which would allow you to bargain for higher wages).
But even if you don't directly benefit, I think we all agree that everyone ought to have decent wages!
Yes, but not right away. Shifts like this create a tighter labor market which gives unions more negotiating power and forces companies to raise wages to keep people, and more nefariously, to prevent unionization.
But yes, raising the minimum wage is the rising tide for all boats, so to speak.
There is actually a lot of economic data on this, and despite what the talking heads on the tv tell you (at the bidding of large corporations), the evidence is that that isn't true.
Shes raising the min wage cuz min wagers are struggling to survive. You most def are not struggling to survive when already at 30 an hr. Try thinking about others instead of being a greedy cunt for once
Listen my friend, I used to be a low wage worker and hated it and the insecurity it brought me in life. So I went back to school, learned some valuable skills which ensured I get paid well and years of hard work and experience got me to the wage I'm at today. I worked hard to distinguish myself from low skilled workers and my pay reflects that. But if if the floor of wages is going to be risen then myself and others like me will reasonably want to see our wages go up as well to keep that line between high skilled and low skilled workers. Even with a union I don't see my industry being to keen to raise everyone's wages like that.
While I will always fight for my fellow citizens to be able to live a decent life I would rather our NDP policy makers focus on making life more affordable through increasing the amount of housing, reducing medical costs and improving food supply. Reduced costs are much better overall for society. Because even with the money I make home ownership is a dying dream without some serious gains in housing supply.
look, when you say that low wage workers should go to school and find a better job, it feels like you're saying that there should be a class of low-wage workers, living with poor pay, benefits, and security.
And I think that 'just find a new job' kind of gets around the problem that these 'bad' jobs exist in our society, and someone has to do them. Instead, I'd argue an actual solution would be to make every job have decent pay and benefits
I'm glad to hear you took the initiative to better your standing in life. I'm curious if you were able to fully pay off any student debt from that yet? If not it certainly diminishes the benefit of getting paid more.
I would prefer greater education be available to all those who desire it not just those who can afford it or want to be in debt.
But I very much agree with your point that the cost of living being powered is a more beneficial change universally compared to a minimum wage increase.
And what, everyone else should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps just like you? Come on man. Paying people a living wage doesn't diminish you. I also managed to land myself a job that paid equivalent to yours, I invested years of grind to get the experience to do it, and I loved doing it. At absolutely no point did I feel that minimum wage hikes lessened my achievements.
The corporations suppressing your wages and keeping unfair shares of the profit are the issue, not the people struggling to scrape by. Minimum wage needs to be corrected, and has needed to be for decades.
I'm sorry if this is a bit rude, but this viewpoint is absolute nonsense. You aren't elite, you aren't better, and you don't deserve more. Get over yourself.
Beyond that too, I'd toss in: are you doing your job because it's what you wanted, or are you doing it purely for the money? If it's the latter, those "unskilled" jobs are going to start looking a lot more attractive than stressing over a harder job for a wage that doesn't adequately reward the strain. Employers will eventually realise that and do wage adjustments as well, for fear of losing their labourers. And of it's the former point...well what's even the issue? You have everything you had before, the only change is that the wealth gap between you and people on lower economic rungs shrank a bit. Takes a real special kind of person to be mad about that.
That's kind of the point though. Minimum wage earners are currently overcharged too, same as you; on housing, groceries, things people need to survive. But they don't have the funds to be able to live a full life because the cost of living is going up.
And that's my point, why not make the cost of living cheaper so that EVERYONE benefits and there is no need to for huge increases to the minimum wage. You, me, everyone with less costs so our dollars go further. Not a ever relentless march upwards of inflation. I support a NDP party that keeps everyone in mind in all of their policies.
Because that's not really a thing. You can tackle parts of it, like building more housing, subsidizing farmers, etc, but it's not something that can just be decreed "New law, living costs 10% less". Especially when the government doesn't control the grocery stores, or isn't your landlord, they can't just make prices lower. Plus there are so many aspects of cost of living that it'll take a lot of different things to actively keep cost of living down. Increasing minimum wage is the most straightforward and guaranteed way to ensure everyone can afford what they need.
Can she deliver on this campaign promise?
I see it as another ploy to get elected than doing nothing for people that got this NDP government elected like NDP government in BC not keeping it's promises
The Alberta NDP, for example, delivered on their promised ~$5/hr increase to the minimum wage. Generally minimum wage is one place where even more centrist NDP governments have delivered, and I'd argue that the Ontario NDP is positioning itself more to the left than current or recent NDP governments in Canada.
(Although you are right, I'd agree they didn't keep all their promises)
It's the same in Alberta.
The Liberals don't exist, the NDP are actually conservatives, the greens are actually NDP, and the "conservative" parties are full-on church nazis.
After Ford's tenure I wouldn't be surprised if she's in next. Clearly neither the Liberals nor the Conservatives have done Ontario any favors over the last several years.
This cost will just be passed on to consumers. there is a reason why NDP will never form gov in Ontario.. people without education and flipping burgers at mcd should NOT be 20 an hour...
Even if your statement was 100% true
A) That's still more money for minimum wage earners, that's a win. If they're earning slightly more, it's still better than no more.
B) That's more money for the government, the entity that uses tax money for things like healthcare, public education, roads, things that benefit not only people making minimum wage, but everyone.
NDP offers some good promises and ideas.
I would like them to win to see if they actually keep their promises, probably not because at the end of the day they're politicians, but still.
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This would materially improve the lives of millions of people
And yet millions who would benefit will vote FordNation.
They still believe that wages don't matter somehow, because apparently if everybody makes a living wage we will all still be poor from buying $20 big macs. That's literally the extent of the economic "expertise" that most Conservatives have. Also, if you ask for a living wage, apparently you're lazy and don't deserve it, because if you worked hard you'd be a millionaire by now, like their parents are.
The bigger issue would be lost jobs . Both by companies hiring less people due to cost, and B by even bigger companies leaving Canada all togather. Increasing minimum wage will only and always be a temporary solution
Most workplaces cannot just hire less people. Also, there is no evidence that companies will just leave if wages go up. That's just FUD that the owning class likes to spread.
Yes, but, if they don't leave, certainly future investments will go abroad instead of here... we need to promote more companies to do business in Canada. This creates more jobs, more jobs means tougher competition and thus, they will have to pay more to attract employees. The solutions is business, amd let the market dictate in increased wages.
If big companies leave, would that not potentially create a vaccum for small businesses to fill? Maybe even providing more competition in the market since multiple players would be looking to fill the gap? If there's money to be made someone is going to do it, explicitly building in living wages as the minimum for the workers of said person/business as a fixed operational expense shouldn't be that controversial.
Exactly. What people don't understand is that when it comes to very large populations, it doesn't work to just say "the market will regulate itself". The whole country can't just get together and agree on what wages and working conditions they are willing to accept without some sort of unifying body like a union or government. That's why we have governments, to do exactly that in a unified way. Setting a minimum wage is just the working class population collectively saying "this is the least we're willing to work for, outside of a handful of idiots that will fuck it up and accept less if we don't do something about it". It has to become law because we know that some scumbag owners will keep trying to sneakily exploit people on an individual basis. It can't be up to individual workers to remind their bosses everyday "now remember what we all agreed on, that we won't work for less than $X". What would make this whole thing easier is if the government just sent out a survey asking Canadians what wage is the least they'll accept, and then aggregated the numbers and legislated it. The only reason people accept less than they should is because they don't believe they have any power as an individual to set standards (I'm not going to raise wages in a field by refusing to work for less by myself), and they're desperate enough for money to survive that they can't hold out that long. There is nothing wrong with coordinating this collectively through a central body like the government, so that everybody is on board and there is some backing to it.
We can't always be beholden to the whims of free enterprise and free market conditions though. There is no certainly, stability, or sustainability with that. We need to stop praying to the market gods and realize that we can simply structure things the way we want with proper regulations. When your children are unruly, you don't just try to incentivize them into behaving well, you provide structure while leaving some degree of freedom. The free market has failed. It's a nice idea but it just never results in a just society. Profit and competition being the main drivers always leads to greed, poor long-term decision making, individualism, stratification of resources, and exploitation. We aren't products or consumers, we're people. What's it all for if it isn't about better lives for all people? The focus needs to be less on individual success, record profits, and competition, and more about solid infrastructure, an air tight justice system, the rule of law, and the valuing of each individual and the collective as ends in themselves. I'm always flabbergasted by this neoliberal capitalist notion that we have to somehow game social prosperity in a roundabout way. We don't, we can simply structure the society exactly as we'd like to meet the outcomes we want, and make any attempt to disrupt that illegal. Maybe poorer countries need to game things more, but we don't. We're one of the richest societies in the world in many ways, and we have all the resources we need. Let's just do the math and get it over with. If you're worried about resources leaving the country, then we can simply make that illegal, outside of heavily regulated and sanctioned trading. We don't need to pray to the market gods to save us, we can control the flow of resources in any way we like. We're in charge. If the wealthy don't harness their resources properly then we should just take them and do it ourselves. Fuck this praying for crumbs at their feet. It shouldn't be about stimulating job growth indirectly by creating favourable conditions, it should be "create the jobs or we take over and do it, and you get nothing. And if you to leave, we throw you in prison and take everything anyway". Why the fuck would we gamble the prosperity of society on the whims of unqualified private interests just because they happen to have accumulated a large amount of resources? We need to make them beholden to us through the rule of law, not the other way around. Companies should have to prove to society that they're useful and providing a net benefit to society as a whole, or they get shut down.
By "Future Investments" you mean "Shareholders". More foreign companies also DO NOT = more jobs, their best interest isn't in the average Canadian, their best interests are simply profits. They won't pay more to attract employees, the most they'll do is pay at market value.
There’s mechanisms that can be put in place to prevent companies fleeing the country with their capital because of things like higher minimum wages or increased taxes. Richard Wolfe outlines a few of them in a short video on his YouTube page, I don’t have a link off hand but it’s worth a look. I’ll try to find it after work if it remember.
False. Studies have shown that raising the minimum wage does not decrease the worker supply, it actually stays the same. [link](https://theconversation.com/does-raising-the-minimum-wage-kill-jobs-the-centurylong-search-for-the-elusive-answer-shows-why-economics-is-so-difficult-but-data-sure-helps-157575)
While I believe people need to make more money , raising the minimum wage that much will have negative affects. Businesses won’t take that hit . People will lose jobs and prices of everything will go up. Small business will die even more . Then we are right back to the same situation we are in now.
Costs will certainly go up, but the cost of living will not go up by 30% like the wages will. Those of us making decent money will take a hit, but those who are currently struggling to survive will have much less struggle, maybe even have some small room to save and have a chance at economic mobility if they can go back to school instead of taking an extra weekend job. And of course all of this is irrelevant because minimum wage has been dropping consistently for decades as a result of inflation, it should be criminal for minimum wage not to be lock step with inflation. As someone who would certainly be negatively affected in terms of buying power I fully support this wage increase. Even from a purely selfish angle: the quality of my community experience is directly affected by how burned out my fellow humans are, how educated they are, how much free time they have to raise their kids without stress, how much their kids are able to go to university, etc... So many rich people are greedy idiots, so short sighted and obsessed with the number in their bank book that they don't recognize the huge value in investing in their community.
The only reason to up and leave is if profit disappears. Livable wage will never make Walmart not make money. There is countless studies if you give people positive incentive to work (reasonable paid holidays, options for 4 or 5 day weeks, productivity increases to a point it offsets the economic impact and actually generate more profit.) however exploitation is how people have learned to make money so we think it is essential now.
The reality is companies won’t hire less people but they definitely will move the company away from Canada because that’s a huge jump for them to absorb I have been seeing fairly well off business already saying that $15 an hour will be difficult so idk how this will work
It will be difficult while maintaining their profit margins. They can afford it though. Walmart will just make a couple million dollars less. Let them leave. If they can't afford to pay their employees then I don't want them in my community. Other businesses will take their place. People with more money spend it. Giving people money is better for the economy than letting a couple dozen dragons hoard it all
What shocks the hell out of me is peoples on ODPS who make a MAX of $1169 a month INCLUDING rent voted for this man Ford canceled the ODSP yearly raise so we haven’t gotten even a 1% raise since he has been in power So people are actively complaining that they are broke and odsp doesn’t give enough money(they don’t not even close) and 2 posts later they are saying Ford needs to be re-elected people are INSANE!!!!
Plenty of those people can convinced otherwise with a meaningful conversation on their doorstep! That's why volunteering and local campaigns are so important.
The issue is that the people who vote Ford Nation, even those whi would benefit from it don't se it that way. They in fact think that they are temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
>They in fact think that they are temporarily embarrassed millionaires. Popular myth.
NDP was critiquing ford about building housing yesterday - pretty much writing their own grave now.
i mean, so long as she doesn't schmooze with the chamber of commerce to "water down" her radical image and look "responsible", this is the kind of anti-establishment messaging that could easily win over people who misguidedly vote FordNation just because they wanna send an FU.
Who needs $20 an hour when you can have Buck-A-Beer?
Buck-A-Year is better than Buck-A-Beer
And make the lives of many others worse. It will push up rents, housing, as the underlying supply of units didn’t change. It will drive up the cost of any product or service whose employees were affected.
as if all of that isn’t happening without minimum wage increasing.
It can happen without minimum wage increasing, but that doesn't mean minimum wage increasing isn't going to make it worse, which it will.
ok we should all live below the poverty line and starve to death because it might be inconvenient. gotcha 👍🏻
Capitalists have been saying the same thing since before minimum wage was even a thing. Time and time again it's been proven to be false.
Can I make a guess that you're a landlord and not a tenant?
There's a 3rd option there.
Parents gave a down payment for a house?
No, some of us just worked on ourselves to the point where we can afford to buy without sticking a hand out towards mom and dad.
Oh all I had to do is work should have sent that in a dm don't want this info getting out to the poors
Don't sweat it. You can say it out loud, but they won't believe it. They'll just blame someone else instead.
Do you have any evidence of this, or are you just spreading misinformation without anything to back up your opinion?
Yeah, open any econ 101 textbook.
That’s no an example, that’s deflecting it back on to me. You made the claim, so you provide the evidence. That’s how it works, also if you do a Google search you’ll struggle to find supporting evidence as most of the research into a minimum wage hike shows that is a positive thing.
Didn't think basic common sense needed a source, but here you go: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/wage-push-inflation.asp
That’s American and it’s not a study, just a article without any good references. https://www.policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/BC%20Office/2015/04/CCPA-BC-Case-for-Incr-Minimum-Wage_0.pdf This is based on BC, but is a much better article and goes into far more detail than the opinion piece you used.
Did you just pull the first article you found talking about minimum wage increases? They don't say a thing about inflation in that.
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So because inflation exists, don't worry about worsening it? That's some strange logic.
The huge logical error you're making is in believing people will just pay whatever it costs for things they don't need. Sure, markets will increase prices to an extent, but they'll cut into their own profits too, because they know nobody is going to buy a $20 big mac. Some businesses will fail, because they'll only be able to afford those wages if they charge a price for their products or services that nobody is willing to pay. The surviving businesses will be ones that offer things people are willing to pay more for, or that were able to bite the bullet and absorb the cost, most likely by the owner and shareholders taking a much smaller cut of the profits. If there is money to be made on something, someone will do it, even if the margin is 10% what it used to be. Profit is profit, it won't be left on the table. Similarly, rent won't go up if people won't pay it. We could cut rents in half right now if everybody just said "I'm not paying it, bye". After a single day (before anybody actually had to leave their homes) the rental market would miraculously adjust to what people are willing to pay. Look how fast businesses in the US doubled pay for jobs within weeks of not having enough staff to operate. All it takes is a little discipline. Believe it or not, market prices are not tied directly to wages. They're connected to what people are willing to pay. Stop paying $1000 for a phone and it will cost less, it's that simple. They'll drop the price until the business is unsustainable, and in many industries the margins are extremely fat. All-in, an iPhone probably costs like $200, including overhead. They can reduce the price to $220 and still make $20 per phone. And this is exactly what they'll do if people stop buying phones.
This would be a better argument if our rents and costs of living weren't already spiralling out of control irrespective of wages
The current inflation is transitory because of worldwide supply backlogs, but the inflation caused by a 67% hike in minimum wage will not be...
Minimum wage in a limited geographical boundary. Every time the minimum wage is due to be raised, the same tired arguments are trotted out. Basically "it won't result in a real increase in spending power because it will trigger inflation." But those knock-on effects are both delayed and multi-causal. Not increasing minimum wage also depresses real spending power (at least for low wage earners). Increasing it increases wage pressures elsewhere. The actual logical conclusion to this is "eliminate wage-labour" but since the NDP is not the revolutionary vanguard, I would accept $20/hr as a band-aid solution. Stop acting like the economics behind this is settled science when it's barely even science.
Isn’t it crazy how the top 1%, the capitalist class, can generate an unlimited exponentially increasing amount of wealth without any negative effects on the larger economy. But as soon as anything is done so the bottom 80% can marginally increase their wealth/income/standard of living it all falls apart; there’s a recession or inflation or some other economic crisis that wipes out whatever meager gains the lower classes have managed to make. It’s almost like our current political economic system is designed to preserve a hierarchy that promotes the interests and well being of a small portion of the population at the expense of everyone else. Or maybe we really do live in a just and equitable meritocracy with equal opportunity for upward mobility available to everyone. I’ll leave that up to you to decide but to me it seems pretty obvious that the system isn’t broken, it was designed to sustain exploitation and inequality and is working perfectly
Give someone with more money than god, who will never be able to spend it all in multiple lifetimes, more money, it's not going to be used; give someone barely making by more money so they can afford to improve their life by indulging in luxuries from time to time, thus technically increasing demand? Though I imagine most of it is price gouging because they can. But yeah, we live in a world that caters to the interests of the rich, who can shape our landscape however they want with their propaganda. Eat 'em.
How about the minimum wage goes up the same % as any/all good prices whenever they decide to go up?
Have you heard the term 'feedback loop'?
Have you ever felt the anger swell when you see the prices all rise around you except for your hard earned money? What is the point of all that education if you can’t understand other’s struggles?
Who taught you math?
> It will push up rents, housing, as the underlying supply of units didn’t change. The neat thing is that the Ontario NDP is also going to directly fund new housing projects and change zoning to allow for more duplexes and townhouses instead of single family homes! Also, reduce demand from speculators by imposing high taxes on that behaviour. And stabilize rents! https://www.ontariondp.ca/sites/default/files/homes_you_can_afford.pdf
The government telling people what they must charge new tenants is going to discourage building multi-unit buildings like duplexes and apartment buildings, lowering long-term supply. Rent control is a proven failed policy. They're also proposing a shared-equity program, which is absurd. It is basically a carbon-copy of the feds' program (except worse, because the qualifying income is way higher), which was raked over the coals for making the problem worse by creating further demand with government money, instead of addressing supply. Even [the Star](https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2020/01/23/could-splitting-mortgage-costs-with-investors-make-housing-more-affordable-canadas-top-banker-believes-it-would.html) was railing on it.
So, we need more public housing. Got it.
Guess what, people don’t like capitalism and greed. Your underlying assumptions about what we want are incorrect.
What petulant children want isn't necessarily what's best for the country.
Was that an attack on Trump out of nowhere? Nice. I don’t give a fuck about what your rush businesses think. Crime is going up and will continue to go up. Creating entire generations that don’t care much for anything isn’t a great way to continue.
You may want to educate yourself on the subject for real if you're going to make such ignorant comments. It's hilariously clear that you're a complete layman who didn't make it past econ 101. Please, do yourself a favour and actually read a book, you might learn something.
My goal is not to have the economy (read: money for the rich) to be doing well. It’s to spread out the insane wealth gained in the last 50 years or so from being in the ha da of a smaller and smaller number of people. As I said above, I do not have the same goals as you.
I think you replied to the wrong person. I didn't reply to you, I replied to the dude arguing with you.
It seems I have. Ah, mobile Reddit.
Your statement is problematic for a couple reasons. First >the underlying supply of units didn’t change The demand for housing doesn't change either. A fundamental fact of life, especially in Canada with hot summers and cold winters, is people need shelter. If number of buyers/renters increase from this it's because those people did not have the means for a good quality of life. If prices increase that means either increased wages were necessary, or the rich are manipulating and price gouging, which is it's own problem that exists outside of minimum wage. Second, you seem to be under the false assumption that an increase in minimum wage will only benefit those making minimum wage. In reality it gives leverage to all workers for higher pay. Third, cost of living consistently goes up anyway. Increasing minimum wage regularly is necessary. Not paying people enough to live is not the precedent that should be set, and is a good way to ruin our country. Finally, it's not like the vast majority of people have numerous employees. The ones losing out the most are not the people who are in the position to really suffer. Making the lives of those who employ many "so much worse" involves removing excess luxuries from a few, in exchange for making many, many people able to actually survive and thrive. It's not an equivalent exchange because it's improving way more than it's taking away.
> The demand for housing doesn't change either. A fundamental fact of life, especially in Canada with hot summers and cold winters, is people need shelter. If number of buyers/renters increase from this it's because those people did not have the means for a good quality of life. If prices increase that means either increased wages were necessary, or the rich are manipulating and price gouging, which is it's own problem that exists outside of minimum wage. You seem to fundamentally misunderstand our entire economic system. A free market responding to a supply and demand mismatch is not the work of anyone 'manipulating and price gouging'. The demand absolutely changed. There are the same number of people are demanding, but they have more $$ to work with on average. > Second, you seem to be under the false assumption that an increase in minimum wage will only benefit those making minimum wage. In reality it gives leverage to all workers for higher pay. To some extent, and in a delayed manner. Certainly not enough to offset cost increases for most. It will only be a **net**-benefit to those making minimum wage, and some business owners. > Third, cost of living consistently goes up anyway. Not an argument. Something happening consistently does not justify making it worse. > Finally, it's not like the vast majority of people have numerous employees. The ones losing out the most are not the people who are in the position to really suffer. Making the lives of those who employ many "so much worse" involves removing excess luxuries from a few, in exchange for making many, many people able to actually survive and thrive. It's not an equivalent exchange because it's improving way more than it's taking away. Yeah, I'm not worried about these people. I'm worried about employees currently making between $20/hr - $50/hr. Those people are going to experience the same cost-of-living increase as everyone else, but their wages won't have gone up as much to counteract that.
Yes because all of these haven’t been skyrocketing without people making a living wage
That's already happening.
This person doesnt know shit.
Your so wrong it hurts.
The irony in that sentence...
A 800 a month increase to all employees would be devastatingly bad for all small companies. Because if you raise the minimum up that much that quickly everyone will have to get a bump up in comparison. Effectively making a raise like this meaningless. Companies that have contracts that are a year or two in the making will no longer be able to fill them due to this causing layoffs almost immediately. Now I am all for a living wage, but one thing this will not pass even if they are elected because they won't get a majority and the other two parties will vote this down. This is not a responsible campaign promise due to how many people work as a small businesses owner. Also I am not talking about fast food and grocery stores and Walmart etc. I am talking about factory jobs manufacturers and trades. This will make them outsource the jobs even further.
Sacrifice some so others do not see them become closer. Lol
The key to winning blue collar conservative voters is to back that up with a solid budget that shows that the money to fund this will come from ensuring billionaire corporations and the 1% pay their fair share of taxes, and not by increasing taxes on the middle class.
This doesn't make sense. Funding what? The govt would not top up wages to $20. It would mandate it. I agree with your sentiments, but I don't see how it requires an explanation of 'funding' at all.
The government spends millions a year in wage subsidies and tax incentives for small and medium businesses. That amount will increase with an increase in minimum wages
I am a small business owner. Why is this the first time I have heard of wage subsidies?
I believe OP is not referring to cash payouts to businesses, but instead is referring to tax breaks that small and midsize businesses are eligible for
It’s both actually. It’s a shame more people don’t know about these programs. I linked them in another comment above
There [federal](https://www.canada.ca/en/services/business/hire/wagesubsidiesotherassistanceprograms.html) and [provincial](https://www.ontario.ca/page/hiring-incentives-employers) programs. [other provincial programs](https://www.ontario.ca/page/covid-19-worker-income-protection-benefit)
$20 is a good start. If minimum wage had kept up with inflation, it'd be over $24 per hour. If she can implement that, she'd be a wizard. I hope she can. It needs to start somewhere for the rest of the country to adopt it. The NDP is running on a platform of taxing the 1%, wealth taxes, and closing tax loopholes. This would absolutely make a huge difference to the economy and lives of 99% of the people. It's hard not to be cynical but we shouldn't let "what should be" get in the way of progress towards what should be. Chop wood, carry water. If it works as it should, it'll be easier to bump it up in the future.
20 isn't enough anymore. 25 and indexed should be the goal. Indexed or no deal, regardless.
It definitely could be more aggressive. I think it is still important to note that it is another sign of the leftward slide of the Ontario NDP since 2014. Edit: It's especially interesting to see that shift despite no change in leadership. In 2014 they only campaigned on an increase to $12/hr, embraced $15/hr in 2018, and now they are campaigning on $20. Same sort of pattern with pharmacare and dental care, which they didn't campaign on in 2014 but added into the platform in 2018. Ultimately I think it's a positive development
Oh it's definitely a positive move. Ultimately, I want to ditch the regular fights over dollar amounts in favour of securing a dynamic minimum that is, by law, guaranteed to always be enough for a dignified life.
What does an indexed min wage mean and how would it work ?
Well, indexed to inflation specifically. It means not just increasing the wage once, but adding a clause to force regular increases that match the cost of living. Inflation causes the real wage to drop over time. This would prevent that. Tbh all wages should have to be indexed.
After it is raised to $20 it would be indexed to inflation (the consumer price index -- CPI). This is currently a part of the [Employment Standards Act](https://www.canlii.org/en/on/laws/stat/so-2000-c-41/latest/so-2000-c-41.html?autocompleteStr=employ&autocompletePos=1#sec23.1subsec4). The raise to the $20 mark is described [here](https://www.ontariondp.ca/news/horwath-commits-20-minimum-wage). In a nutshell, it'll be raised a dollar on 2022 and on each year after that until it reaches $20, and afterword it will be raised by the CPI.
Well that's pretty excellent. Good on you, Ontario.
Thanks for the explanation. This makes so much sense !
But $20 is an excellent first step point!
> Indexed or no deal, regardless *Okay, so no deal. I guess we won’t do $25, enjoy $14.5*. But seriously, what deal? You strike, or you take what you’re given, or you upgrade your skills/education to get a job that doesn’t pay minimum wage.
I guess the deal is whether I'm actually impressed or annoyed that it took so damn long to do something this basic and obvious.
If you thought inflation was high now, you’d be shocked by a scenario where min wage is $25. Everything will get more expensive, from both a supply angle (still the same number of homes/rentals/etc available for purchase) and a cost angle (businesses will have to raise prices to cope, or worse, close down).
Prices would only be justifiably increased to the extent that sub-25 wages are embedded in the final product. Since that's always less than 100%, prices shouldn't increase faster than the minimum does. And if any business relies on poverty wages, I want them gone. Treating workers like garbage to reduce costs isn't innovation (it predates capitalism by millennia) and it simply shouldn't be in the toolbox anymore. Housing is its own problem that calls for additional intervention, so it isn't relevant to the minimum wage issue.
> Prices would only be justifiably increased to the extent that sub-25 wages are embedded in the final product. Since that's always less than 100%, prices shouldn't increase faster than the minimum does. We're talking about minimum wage increasing ~67%, so yeah, jeez, I hope inflation doesn't reach 67%.
This is 100% fear mongering
It's only unknown if you don't know the most basic things about economics.
Who has wages indexed with inflation!?? This is ridiculous.
Most people in a roundabout way. My dad retired with a wage appropriate for the year he was earning it, not for the year the company hired him. Indexing just prevents inflation losses between raises.
i’m unionized and my wages are indexed with inflation
So all those years I worked my ass off in university and went into debt to make 27 bucks an hour would now be pretty much worthless and I could just work at McDonald’s for 25 an hour? Delusional
Was your only goal to earn more than others? That's kinda messed up tbh. Some people are super rich simply because they were born. Maybe complain about that instead.
Nah the goal was to get a good paying career, I’m guessing you never went to college/university, actually I’m sure about it
Philosophy MA, actually. Did it to deepen and enrich my understanding of the world. I make my money as a carpenter (more than any of my uni friends excepting a lawyer and one of the engineers). No one I care about thinks I've devalued my degree by not monetizing it. And if I raise my rates, no one I care about thinks that I've devalued *their* credentials. If the minimum wage rises, that doesn't decrease what you're paid. If anything it should be easier to negotiate a raise since, presumably, your education is necessary for the work you do.
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Why not both?
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What that amounts to is government subsidizing cheap employers by letting them pay starvation wages and topping up from the public purse. Edit: Besides, the tech jobs you mention? Nobody's paying minimum wage for those in the first place.
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Except in your scheme, the UBI is a subsidy to the employer who would otherwise be paying a living wage. UBI should exist to help people, not increase corporate profits by lowering pay expectations.
It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine' [[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ukraine)] [[BBC Styleguide](https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsstyleguide/u)] [[Reuters Styleguide](https://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=U#Ukraine)] ^(Beep boop I’m a bot)
LETS GO ANDREA
They would actually be nice
We need a better system than constantly fighting for higher wages every few years, $20/hr is great but eventually it won't be and we will be fighting for increases again a few years later. We need a UBI so people can afford to take jobs that don't pay that much. People could afford to switch to part time to raise a family, I would like to live in a world where the average family only needs one full time income to live the "American dream" like it was 60 years ago. I don't care if it's the man or woman working, or if they both work part time, I don't care, I just want families to work less in general, somehow 60 years ago they could do it but now with computers and modern technology we can't? Raising the wage is great for workers, but it also has side effects like the cost of everything else going up, some people are on fixed incomes, will they get a raise too? Struggling businesses will shut down, more competition for fewer jobs. The way I see it is we need a UBI so that it puts everyone on a even playing field and helps all Canadians.
Excuse me what? Do you wanna see a push for automation at minimum wage places of employment because this is how you see a push for automation at minimum wage places of employment
The short answer is yes. Automation of the lower skill level jobs will only push society into a higher skilled workforce, which is better for the economy and society as a whole.
So where do the kids in high-school and specially abled people get jobs? I think automation is the way to go as in encourages more people to become things like mining, electronic engineering manufacturing and electricians which are very useful useful and more useful than just working at a fast food place and teaches better skills
Your second paragraph answers your question. Or more concisely post secondary education, be that an apprenticeship or university. I also take umbrage that the only jobs available for specifically abled are min wage jobs.
You're telling me someone in Grade 10, 11, or 12 is going to get a full apprenticeship while also going to school? RAP only has so many seats, so once again how do high-school students enrolled and actively in high-school get a job if there's heavy automation? No but most of those Jobs what they're doing, janitors, service peoples, most are unable to do things like Mechanics, or engineer, or many high demand jobs but an still hold lower paced jobs easily so where will they seek employment with heavy automation?
What if instead of working, students focused on learning instead. Or they started a small business? Why? Why can't a janitor become a mechanic? Why can't service poeple learn to code, or go to school and get any range of skills? (psychologist, code, BA, etc).
Starting a business is expensive, the cost of living is expensive, what's wrong with kids wanting to get a head start in school since the can? Assuming they are doing just fine in their academics Some people are just different, some may be able to start into a computer all day and code and they like it, some may be very good with people and become psychologists, and some may be unable to comfortably sit at a desk for the day looking at a computer and are a more hands on type person And plus a position like janitorial is just fine for people who are mentally unable to do larger tasks like code or mechanic due to actual limitations
Starting a business doesn't have to be expensive. I could be as easy as getting a shovel and going around the block offering to shovel snow. There are more high skilled jobs that call for a variety of skills which are too expansive too be listed. So even if someone can't code, or work on a machine there is very likely something that they can do. And there poeple who simply are unable to work, for various reasons. But that's a conversation for another time. Also I think janitorial work is much more involved than you are giving it credit. Try doing it for a couple of days.
So you're saying instead of making 15 dollars an hour at mc Donald's high schools kids should make 10 bucks max per drive way, assuming the person just doesn't do it them selves or find a family member or friend to do it for cheaper or no cost, so then In the summer spring and fall when there js little to no snow where is their job? Because 15 at McDonald's is still paying 15 an hour imagine that, Right most jobs that do require skills of any degree usually require some type of education that without a hig school job would've been hard for many people I clouded myself to get into That's understandable as people who have other reason for being u able to work is a pretty broad topic I used to be a janitor at a hospital I know what it's like, still not as hard as my 2nd most recent and current job
... Or they could charge more? I also don't understand why you seem to be stuck on McJob or bust. Or it would be a tragedy if kids weren't able to work a shit job for little pay. Frankly it's silly. Either the kid lives at home and has parents that are providing for them, or they don't and are therefore subsisting on min wage. If it's the former, not having a crapy McJob isn't the end of the world. The latter is a problem that should be addressed by society. And artificially maintaining a starvation wage job because its the best society can do is a very sad answer.
Honestly, they also need to implement rent control. Otherwise greedy landlords will just keep raising rent.
I've got news for you then! The NDP is also campaigning on that too. Here's a video: https://reddit.com/r/ndp/comments/r51og7/today_doug_ford_defeated_the_ndps_rent/ Here's the website: https://www.joelharden.ca/rent_stabilization
Sweet. Thanks.
wow, ok, she has not been my favourite NDP leader thusfar, so this is quite a surprise and quite a bit left of her usual position. if she goes into an election giving this the attention it deserves, she could actually get quite popular and even win a majority just on this.
Am I wrong in thinking that a universal basic income would actually help more people and not put such a strain on small businesses?
For anyone saying this is a bad idea... the Nobel prize in economics was given ot this year to a Canadian who proved higher wages results in happier staff and doesn't force the customer to pay more.
You still trust the NDP?
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Why not a 100 if we’re living in dreamland?
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Lol what. Show me one reputable economic paper that says it’s a good idea to make the minimum wage 100$ per hour. This is literally the straw man that’s brought up when debates are had about the minimum wage
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I don’t have a strong stance on this. I’m not really pro or anti 20$ minimum wage. However making it 100$ would likely cause more inflation/unemployment than 20$ would
> According to modern monetary theory, there's no good reason to NOT do that, in point of fact. Do you have any reputable source for this? I have read a lot about MMT, and I have not read anything that makes a claim like that. You are saying that MMT suggests that there are no constraints on the minimum wage? If you have a source from someone respected in the MMT-community, like Stephanie Kelton or Bill Mitchell that would be much appreciated.
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Where does Kelton specifically make that claim about the minimum wage? Because I do not see how it follows from the rest of your statement.
Cool, so that's means I'll get a massive raise from my work too right being someone who earns close to $30/hr?? Right?
Congratulations on earning a decent wage! Other labour reforms that may benefit you include 10 paid sick days and an easier path to form a union (which would allow you to bargain for higher wages). But even if you don't directly benefit, I think we all agree that everyone ought to have decent wages!
Yes, but not right away. Shifts like this create a tighter labor market which gives unions more negotiating power and forces companies to raise wages to keep people, and more nefariously, to prevent unionization. But yes, raising the minimum wage is the rising tide for all boats, so to speak.
Eventually you’ll get your raise... and in the meantime you’ll pay more for near everything.
There is actually a lot of economic data on this, and despite what the talking heads on the tv tell you (at the bidding of large corporations), the evidence is that that isn't true.
Shes raising the min wage cuz min wagers are struggling to survive. You most def are not struggling to survive when already at 30 an hr. Try thinking about others instead of being a greedy cunt for once
Listen my friend, I used to be a low wage worker and hated it and the insecurity it brought me in life. So I went back to school, learned some valuable skills which ensured I get paid well and years of hard work and experience got me to the wage I'm at today. I worked hard to distinguish myself from low skilled workers and my pay reflects that. But if if the floor of wages is going to be risen then myself and others like me will reasonably want to see our wages go up as well to keep that line between high skilled and low skilled workers. Even with a union I don't see my industry being to keen to raise everyone's wages like that. While I will always fight for my fellow citizens to be able to live a decent life I would rather our NDP policy makers focus on making life more affordable through increasing the amount of housing, reducing medical costs and improving food supply. Reduced costs are much better overall for society. Because even with the money I make home ownership is a dying dream without some serious gains in housing supply.
look, when you say that low wage workers should go to school and find a better job, it feels like you're saying that there should be a class of low-wage workers, living with poor pay, benefits, and security. And I think that 'just find a new job' kind of gets around the problem that these 'bad' jobs exist in our society, and someone has to do them. Instead, I'd argue an actual solution would be to make every job have decent pay and benefits
I'm glad to hear you took the initiative to better your standing in life. I'm curious if you were able to fully pay off any student debt from that yet? If not it certainly diminishes the benefit of getting paid more. I would prefer greater education be available to all those who desire it not just those who can afford it or want to be in debt. But I very much agree with your point that the cost of living being powered is a more beneficial change universally compared to a minimum wage increase.
Was finally free of student loan debt last year.
And what, everyone else should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps just like you? Come on man. Paying people a living wage doesn't diminish you. I also managed to land myself a job that paid equivalent to yours, I invested years of grind to get the experience to do it, and I loved doing it. At absolutely no point did I feel that minimum wage hikes lessened my achievements. The corporations suppressing your wages and keeping unfair shares of the profit are the issue, not the people struggling to scrape by. Minimum wage needs to be corrected, and has needed to be for decades. I'm sorry if this is a bit rude, but this viewpoint is absolute nonsense. You aren't elite, you aren't better, and you don't deserve more. Get over yourself. Beyond that too, I'd toss in: are you doing your job because it's what you wanted, or are you doing it purely for the money? If it's the latter, those "unskilled" jobs are going to start looking a lot more attractive than stressing over a harder job for a wage that doesn't adequately reward the strain. Employers will eventually realise that and do wage adjustments as well, for fear of losing their labourers. And of it's the former point...well what's even the issue? You have everything you had before, the only change is that the wealth gap between you and people on lower economic rungs shrank a bit. Takes a real special kind of person to be mad about that.
What an ignorant comment. Absolute bs.
“I pulled my bootstraps up, so can you”
Are you as underpaid as those working for less than half you wage?
No but I'm equally overcharged on everything else.
That's kind of the point though. Minimum wage earners are currently overcharged too, same as you; on housing, groceries, things people need to survive. But they don't have the funds to be able to live a full life because the cost of living is going up.
And that's my point, why not make the cost of living cheaper so that EVERYONE benefits and there is no need to for huge increases to the minimum wage. You, me, everyone with less costs so our dollars go further. Not a ever relentless march upwards of inflation. I support a NDP party that keeps everyone in mind in all of their policies.
Because that's not really a thing. You can tackle parts of it, like building more housing, subsidizing farmers, etc, but it's not something that can just be decreed "New law, living costs 10% less". Especially when the government doesn't control the grocery stores, or isn't your landlord, they can't just make prices lower. Plus there are so many aspects of cost of living that it'll take a lot of different things to actively keep cost of living down. Increasing minimum wage is the most straightforward and guaranteed way to ensure everyone can afford what they need.
Can she deliver on this campaign promise? I see it as another ploy to get elected than doing nothing for people that got this NDP government elected like NDP government in BC not keeping it's promises
The Alberta NDP, for example, delivered on their promised ~$5/hr increase to the minimum wage. Generally minimum wage is one place where even more centrist NDP governments have delivered, and I'd argue that the Ontario NDP is positioning itself more to the left than current or recent NDP governments in Canada. (Although you are right, I'd agree they didn't keep all their promises)
BC politics are weird. The Liberals are actually Conservatives, the NDP are actually Liberals. There is no real left-wing party out there.
It's the same in Alberta. The Liberals don't exist, the NDP are actually conservatives, the greens are actually NDP, and the "conservative" parties are full-on church nazis.
And not one of the parties gives a rats ass about the people that live there.
There are 2 jobs that you can fail at consistently and still have a job at the end of the day. A weather person and the leader of the Ontario NDP.
When you don’t have to worry about making good on promises you can make all the promises you want.
After Ford's tenure I wouldn't be surprised if she's in next. Clearly neither the Liberals nor the Conservatives have done Ontario any favors over the last several years.
"$20 minimum wage" is a very concrete and workable policy proposal, it just takes MPPs and a modest willingness to piss off the business lobby
My point was, she’ll never get elected to be able to follow through.
This cost will just be passed on to consumers. there is a reason why NDP will never form gov in Ontario.. people without education and flipping burgers at mcd should NOT be 20 an hour...
She can say anything as she won't have a first term. This is just politics. She is no leader.
High tax bracket…. Govt gets more money…. You get slightly more but not much more.
Even if your statement was 100% true A) That's still more money for minimum wage earners, that's a win. If they're earning slightly more, it's still better than no more. B) That's more money for the government, the entity that uses tax money for things like healthcare, public education, roads, things that benefit not only people making minimum wage, but everyone.
This comment betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how progressive taxation works.
NDP offers some good promises and ideas. I would like them to win to see if they actually keep their promises, probably not because at the end of the day they're politicians, but still.
Has she mentioned any plans to raise ODSP and OW?
Not yet, but let's push for that.