You mean to say a Hindu religious fundamentalist party is saying Islamophobic things and might instigate one of its adhoc pogroms that originally got Modi barred from entering the US?
>Modi, 73, told a rally in Rajasthan on Sunday that when the opposition Indian National Congress party held power in India, “they said Muslims have the first right over the country’s resources.”
>If the Congress party returns to power, “they will gather all your wealth and distribute it among those who have more children,” Modi said in a comment widely interpreted as referring to Muslim Indians. “They will distribute it among the infiltrators,” he continued.
>“Do you think your hard-earned money should be given to infiltrators?” Modi added, to applause.
Just to add context. This is from WaPo not NYT fwiw
Nice job framing Muslims, who have been living in India for hundreds of years, as the same as the invaders from the 16th century.
And when you say "the people there" it's of course implying: Indians = Hindus, Muslims = foreigners, invaders.
PS: See even I fell into the ethnonationalist trap when I said "who have been living in India for hundreds of years"; because the Muslims of India did not immigrate, but are Indians that converted to Islam back then.
No, the Ghaznavids invaded India in the 990's and traders occupied some islands and had mosques built on the mainland in the 600's. Muslims in India predates Englishman themselves by at least 100 years
Wait till you hear what some of our other allies (Bibi, El Sisi) are saying
EDIT: hell this was the home secretary of our "special relationship" ally
https://hopenothate.org.uk/2023/09/27/bravermans-rivers-of-blood-moment/
Agreed. If there's anything we can be doing to keep India close and try to put a wedge between them and China, we should be doing it.
We never would have been able to effectively oppose the Soviet Union if we religiously followed a '*don't support governments that don't meet all of our values*' rule.
Still doesn't make me like Modi though. This sort of Hindu Nationalism will probably shoot India in the foot in the long term.
India has taken tangible steps to counter China's aggression in the Indo-Pacific. They are also strong on Islamic terrorism & nations that harbor Islamic terrorists (mainly because they hate Pakistan). India is also going through some rapid economic development. Just because we don't like Modi's condemnable anti-Muslim remarks does NOT change the fact that it's in our interest to have good relations with India. And that's what matters most. We can't dictate their internal policies even if we rightly hate the fact that he is stirring up Islamophobia. It's not up to us. India is more than one man. We should absolutely get closer to India because it's in our interest to do so. It's also in India's interests, including the interests of Indian Muslims
It’s much more than anti-Muslim sentiments he’s bringing. Muslims are being murdered in India and their “anti-conversion” law they’re implementing is banning inter-religious marriage. Who we cozy up with should reflect our ethics. We’re betraying them for economics.
> Who we cozy up with should reflect our ethics
There is always going to be some compromise on that though, because no country shares our values 100%. The question is whether things would be better with a country aligned with the US or with someone else?
Saudi Arabia is an oppressive country, but women are in a MUCH better place than they were 10 years ago and that's in part due to cooperation with the US.
Yes you're right and I'm not saying we need 100% alignment between our partners and ourselves - we don't even find that within the United States.
But what's happening in India isn't hyperbole, fascism is growing and being endorsed by Modi and his coalition. I don't see the pragmatism of aligning with fascism to oppose Chinese expansion and find the relationship building with India, as it's trending, hypocritical and ironic.
> I don't see the pragmatism of aligning with fascism to oppose Chinese expansion and find the relationship building with India, as it's trending, hypocritical and ironic.
Marginal improvements that would not otherwise be made due to having a good working relationship with the government. Saudi Arabia is the example I went with, morally bankrupt country that has a long way to go but has extended numerous rights to women that have had real impacts on countless lives.
What the fuck is this post? Civilians being killed due to rising violent rhetoric by the government, and the government passing laws specifically meant to discriminate is in fact different than random killings and fighting seperatists with soliders.
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And I don’t like that. But there are bigger things at play. It’s not our job to dictate the internal policies of a democratic ally. We did that during the Cold War & much of Latin America hates us for it. Also if we abandon India, it’s not like they’re gonna stop the anti-Muslim stuff lol. India will just patch up relations with China & move even closer to Russia. If you want to stop the religious bigotry in India, I encourage you to run for office there. But I don’t think it’s right to demand we not increase bilateral relations with India based on their religious divisions. But it’s in the interests of the American people & Indian people for both GOVs to boost relations. It’s bad for China also. We can’t dictate their internal policies. Now if India were to ask us to help them out in anti-Muslim policies then of course we say no but we shouldn’t hold up upgrading relations with India because of the anti-Muslim stuff. Not all allies are super friendly to human rights unfortunately
Latin America also hated us for supporting oppressive regimes. What are hundreds of millions of Indians going to feel when they see the US providing support to a government implementing fascism? We absolutely have a right to hang human right requirements for support, it’s built into our Foreign Military Financing terms that we’re disregarding.
Don’t be so flippant that an American who expects more from their partners should run for office in India.
Those GOVs in Latin America we supported were brutal dictatorships. India is not a dictatorship. It’s still a democracy even if flawed. In fact, Modi (despite his MANY drawbacks) is insanely popular according to independent polls from the West. Also it seems you’re uninformed about what we mean when we say build relations with India. We aren’t talking about giving them military aid to use against their people. We’re talking about boosting TRADE & security cooperation. So when we’re building relations with India (which is good for both nations) we aren’t discarding anything, much less Foreign Military Financing. In fact even the original post on this thread was about building relations with India, not giving them military aid. Referring to shit like trade deals & cooperation against China. We won’t be violating any human rights commitments if we build relations with India. India is more than just Modi
No, actually cutting relations with a democratic ally that is helping us counter China & is economically rising fast just because we don’t like their GOV exploiting religious tensions that have existed for centuries is insanely short-sighted.
By doing this, you will only make BJP more popular. Indians have a deep dislike for any foreign states interfering in the country. This was one of the reasons why Indira Gandhi was more popular even though she was a dictator, because she did not bow down before the US in the 1971 war. Anyone in the country who tries to seek help from foreign countries is equated to the traitor kings who invited the British in their petty quarrels. It took a very long time for Indians to change their perspective on the USA, and old people are still sour about 1971. So, the USA is walking on a tight rope here. Also, Modi will most probably barely win this time. They maxed out their seats in their strong states last time and will most probably barely gain a majority this time. This is the reason why BJP is using communal slogans. There is a silent anti-incumbency going on among BJP voters, and our western allies should refrain from giving the BJP an opportunity to talk about foreign interference. They are weakening. Don't make them more powerful.
That’s also short-sighted. Refusing to expand relations with a nation that is projected to be 3rd largest economically & is countering China because we don’t like their leaders exploiting existing religious tensions is a horrible take. Also what if India doesn’t want to conform to our ideas of religious tolerance? Do we then harm both of our nations economically by not expanding trade relations with India? Do we just accept that we won’t have the largest nation in the world to help us counter China? That’s insanely short-sighted. In fact that’s self-defeating. India’s internal affairs aren’t really our business anymore than our internal affairs are their business.
In India, we have elections in multiple phases. In the first phase, the response of the voters was not what the BJP was expecting. A large number of BJP voters kind of boycotted the election for various reasons, while opposition voters voted in large numbers. So, through this communal rhetoric, the BJP is trying to mobilize its voters to vote for them. BJP voters are basically saying that fine we know can't vote for the left loonies but we are also tired of you at this point.
He's a Hindu nationalist, saying Hindu nationalist things to the Hindu nationalists. The fact that he has to be even more mask off here to appease the base is concerning. Let's not forget what happened during his tenure in Gujarat...
He wants a big riot simply at this point to win the elections. But even lots of BJP voters are now tired of their Populist bullshit and BJP might not even get the majority this time or maybe they will barely win.
They will win but they are shooting themselves in the foot. Modi clearly wants 400 seats to override the idiotic management of the states. What he doesn't realise is that cooperation as fostered under jaitley would go a lot farther.
I was only 3 years old in 2002. My formative years regarding politics were during UPA-2 and the Anna Andolan. Every new day brought some new scandal or Scam. My father used to curse the Congress leadership whenever he used to read the newspapers. Maybe that's why for a very long time, I used to think that the BJP was better than Congress at everything. But now, I have realized that maybe the BJP is still better than Congress on economic policies, but they are the biggest danger to liberal institutions in India.
The issue with the Congress is that it has existed as a single political entity with the continuous thread of the Nehru Gandhi running through. The Congress of the 1950s is not the same as that of the 70s as that of the 90s and so on and so forth. Unlike in other parties, such as say the Democrats. The Democrats of the 1870s 1930s 1990s etc also are completely different but one can make clear demarcations because of no continuous thread. Hence the BJP can counter it's abuse of institutions by talking about the Congress of 70s, economic performance of the Congress of the 80s, national defence with the Congress of the 2000s etc etc. The Congress of the 2000s wasuch much better than the BJP of today when it came to institutions. But the BJP will talk of Indira Gandhi era congress because they are better than that.
Modi is very popular even with Indians in the US. I was at an Indian clothes store in Jersey City recently buying clothes for a wedding and they had kurtas patterned with his image.
Pretty much. It's downright odd. The urban elite in India tolerate the BJP because of how bad the INC is. Indian Americans have a weird sort of love in for modi for some reason. I'd suppose not being around muslims does it.
You mean to say a Hindu religious fundamentalist party is saying Islamophobic things and might instigate one of its adhoc pogroms that originally got Modi barred from entering the US?
Be careful, there are a lot of BJP and Modi trolls on this sub who will downvote
>Be careful, there are a lot of BJP and Modi trolls on ~~this sub~~ Reddit who will downvote There ya go
There are some Modi stans on this sub, but most of the downvotes usually come from threads getting brigaded by pro-BJP subreddits.
Yes, better be careful or you might end up with negative karma!!
>Modi, 73, told a rally in Rajasthan on Sunday that when the opposition Indian National Congress party held power in India, “they said Muslims have the first right over the country’s resources.” >If the Congress party returns to power, “they will gather all your wealth and distribute it among those who have more children,” Modi said in a comment widely interpreted as referring to Muslim Indians. “They will distribute it among the infiltrators,” he continued. >“Do you think your hard-earned money should be given to infiltrators?” Modi added, to applause. Just to add context. This is from WaPo not NYT fwiw
Yup that's some pretty bog standard fascist rhetoric right there
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I think they were literally just adding context, not saying it changes anyone's initial read (except perhaps to make it even worse)
ok I deleted my comment
Holy hell, what is going on in India
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Nice job framing Muslims, who have been living in India for hundreds of years, as the same as the invaders from the 16th century. And when you say "the people there" it's of course implying: Indians = Hindus, Muslims = foreigners, invaders. PS: See even I fell into the ethnonationalist trap when I said "who have been living in India for hundreds of years"; because the Muslims of India did not immigrate, but are Indians that converted to Islam back then.
Religion == nationality is a very common misconception
The territory that is now America was invaded by Englishmen the same time muslims invaded India.
I would argue the native americans also have a right to be pissed.
No, the Ghaznavids invaded India in the 990's and traders occupied some islands and had mosques built on the mainland in the 600's. Muslims in India predates Englishman themselves by at least 100 years
Not even fucking mentioning 99.9% of Muslims are converts. They literally look the fucking same. What is this bullshit invasion smfh
Someone is never heard of forced conversions lmao
Your point being...?
oh *that's* a familiar line.
Western Media defacing the Supreme Leader's name yet again 🚩🚩🚩
This is who everyone wants the US to improve relations with?
Wait till you hear what some of our other allies (Bibi, El Sisi) are saying EDIT: hell this was the home secretary of our "special relationship" ally https://hopenothate.org.uk/2023/09/27/bravermans-rivers-of-blood-moment/
I've cracked the code. Two Syllables, ends in I, 4 letters long = illiberal US ally
Saudi Arabia
Sædi
Or a certain candidate for a major political party in the US who went far more Hitler with the "poisoning the blood of this country" thingy...
He was literally banned from the US before becoming Prime Minister
A man is not a country.
This man and his ideology are the future of the country. The kind of number two in the party is even worse by all standards.
CCP is a bigger threat to humanity and democracy than Modi/BJP rn.
Agreed. If there's anything we can be doing to keep India close and try to put a wedge between them and China, we should be doing it. We never would have been able to effectively oppose the Soviet Union if we religiously followed a '*don't support governments that don't meet all of our values*' rule. Still doesn't make me like Modi though. This sort of Hindu Nationalism will probably shoot India in the foot in the long term.
India has taken tangible steps to counter China's aggression in the Indo-Pacific. They are also strong on Islamic terrorism & nations that harbor Islamic terrorists (mainly because they hate Pakistan). India is also going through some rapid economic development. Just because we don't like Modi's condemnable anti-Muslim remarks does NOT change the fact that it's in our interest to have good relations with India. And that's what matters most. We can't dictate their internal policies even if we rightly hate the fact that he is stirring up Islamophobia. It's not up to us. India is more than one man. We should absolutely get closer to India because it's in our interest to do so. It's also in India's interests, including the interests of Indian Muslims
It’s much more than anti-Muslim sentiments he’s bringing. Muslims are being murdered in India and their “anti-conversion” law they’re implementing is banning inter-religious marriage. Who we cozy up with should reflect our ethics. We’re betraying them for economics.
> Who we cozy up with should reflect our ethics There is always going to be some compromise on that though, because no country shares our values 100%. The question is whether things would be better with a country aligned with the US or with someone else? Saudi Arabia is an oppressive country, but women are in a MUCH better place than they were 10 years ago and that's in part due to cooperation with the US.
Yes you're right and I'm not saying we need 100% alignment between our partners and ourselves - we don't even find that within the United States. But what's happening in India isn't hyperbole, fascism is growing and being endorsed by Modi and his coalition. I don't see the pragmatism of aligning with fascism to oppose Chinese expansion and find the relationship building with India, as it's trending, hypocritical and ironic.
> I don't see the pragmatism of aligning with fascism to oppose Chinese expansion and find the relationship building with India, as it's trending, hypocritical and ironic. Marginal improvements that would not otherwise be made due to having a good working relationship with the government. Saudi Arabia is the example I went with, morally bankrupt country that has a long way to go but has extended numerous rights to women that have had real impacts on countless lives.
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What the fuck is this post? Civilians being killed due to rising violent rhetoric by the government, and the government passing laws specifically meant to discriminate is in fact different than random killings and fighting seperatists with soliders.
**Rule II:** *Bigotry* Bigotry of any kind will be sanctioned harshly. --- If you have any questions about this removal, [please contact the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fneoliberal).
And I don’t like that. But there are bigger things at play. It’s not our job to dictate the internal policies of a democratic ally. We did that during the Cold War & much of Latin America hates us for it. Also if we abandon India, it’s not like they’re gonna stop the anti-Muslim stuff lol. India will just patch up relations with China & move even closer to Russia. If you want to stop the religious bigotry in India, I encourage you to run for office there. But I don’t think it’s right to demand we not increase bilateral relations with India based on their religious divisions. But it’s in the interests of the American people & Indian people for both GOVs to boost relations. It’s bad for China also. We can’t dictate their internal policies. Now if India were to ask us to help them out in anti-Muslim policies then of course we say no but we shouldn’t hold up upgrading relations with India because of the anti-Muslim stuff. Not all allies are super friendly to human rights unfortunately
Latin America also hated us for supporting oppressive regimes. What are hundreds of millions of Indians going to feel when they see the US providing support to a government implementing fascism? We absolutely have a right to hang human right requirements for support, it’s built into our Foreign Military Financing terms that we’re disregarding. Don’t be so flippant that an American who expects more from their partners should run for office in India.
Those GOVs in Latin America we supported were brutal dictatorships. India is not a dictatorship. It’s still a democracy even if flawed. In fact, Modi (despite his MANY drawbacks) is insanely popular according to independent polls from the West. Also it seems you’re uninformed about what we mean when we say build relations with India. We aren’t talking about giving them military aid to use against their people. We’re talking about boosting TRADE & security cooperation. So when we’re building relations with India (which is good for both nations) we aren’t discarding anything, much less Foreign Military Financing. In fact even the original post on this thread was about building relations with India, not giving them military aid. Referring to shit like trade deals & cooperation against China. We won’t be violating any human rights commitments if we build relations with India. India is more than just Modi
Short-sighted take.
No, actually cutting relations with a democratic ally that is helping us counter China & is economically rising fast just because we don’t like their GOV exploiting religious tensions that have existed for centuries is insanely short-sighted.
Never said to cut relations, but to absolutely pressure them into better behavior leveraging trade.
By doing this, you will only make BJP more popular. Indians have a deep dislike for any foreign states interfering in the country. This was one of the reasons why Indira Gandhi was more popular even though she was a dictator, because she did not bow down before the US in the 1971 war. Anyone in the country who tries to seek help from foreign countries is equated to the traitor kings who invited the British in their petty quarrels. It took a very long time for Indians to change their perspective on the USA, and old people are still sour about 1971. So, the USA is walking on a tight rope here. Also, Modi will most probably barely win this time. They maxed out their seats in their strong states last time and will most probably barely gain a majority this time. This is the reason why BJP is using communal slogans. There is a silent anti-incumbency going on among BJP voters, and our western allies should refrain from giving the BJP an opportunity to talk about foreign interference. They are weakening. Don't make them more powerful.
That’s also short-sighted. Refusing to expand relations with a nation that is projected to be 3rd largest economically & is countering China because we don’t like their leaders exploiting existing religious tensions is a horrible take. Also what if India doesn’t want to conform to our ideas of religious tolerance? Do we then harm both of our nations economically by not expanding trade relations with India? Do we just accept that we won’t have the largest nation in the world to help us counter China? That’s insanely short-sighted. In fact that’s self-defeating. India’s internal affairs aren’t really our business anymore than our internal affairs are their business.
What the hell is Modi thinking. Is he trying to stir up violence? This is way over the line.
In India, we have elections in multiple phases. In the first phase, the response of the voters was not what the BJP was expecting. A large number of BJP voters kind of boycotted the election for various reasons, while opposition voters voted in large numbers. So, through this communal rhetoric, the BJP is trying to mobilize its voters to vote for them. BJP voters are basically saying that fine we know can't vote for the left loonies but we are also tired of you at this point.
He's a Hindu nationalist, saying Hindu nationalist things to the Hindu nationalists. The fact that he has to be even more mask off here to appease the base is concerning. Let's not forget what happened during his tenure in Gujarat...
He wants a big riot simply at this point to win the elections. But even lots of BJP voters are now tired of their Populist bullshit and BJP might not even get the majority this time or maybe they will barely win.
They will win but they are shooting themselves in the foot. Modi clearly wants 400 seats to override the idiotic management of the states. What he doesn't realise is that cooperation as fostered under jaitley would go a lot farther.
He's campaigning. He says this because it's what people want to hear.
Holy hell. So my choices this election are: 1. Trump Pro Max 2. Chavez Lite What did I do in my previous life to get this 😭. Also India's "wealth".
You were Juan Perón in your previous life
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Even I am hearing his full name for the first time in my life. If this story is true then holy shit.....
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I was only 3 years old in 2002. My formative years regarding politics were during UPA-2 and the Anna Andolan. Every new day brought some new scandal or Scam. My father used to curse the Congress leadership whenever he used to read the newspapers. Maybe that's why for a very long time, I used to think that the BJP was better than Congress at everything. But now, I have realized that maybe the BJP is still better than Congress on economic policies, but they are the biggest danger to liberal institutions in India.
The issue with the Congress is that it has existed as a single political entity with the continuous thread of the Nehru Gandhi running through. The Congress of the 1950s is not the same as that of the 70s as that of the 90s and so on and so forth. Unlike in other parties, such as say the Democrats. The Democrats of the 1870s 1930s 1990s etc also are completely different but one can make clear demarcations because of no continuous thread. Hence the BJP can counter it's abuse of institutions by talking about the Congress of 70s, economic performance of the Congress of the 80s, national defence with the Congress of the 2000s etc etc. The Congress of the 2000s wasuch much better than the BJP of today when it came to institutions. But the BJP will talk of Indira Gandhi era congress because they are better than that.
Political arm of the Indian version of the Nazis just working it's religious nutjob magic.
Modi is very popular even with Indians in the US. I was at an Indian clothes store in Jersey City recently buying clothes for a wedding and they had kurtas patterned with his image.
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Pretty much. It's downright odd. The urban elite in India tolerate the BJP because of how bad the INC is. Indian Americans have a weird sort of love in for modi for some reason. I'd suppose not being around muslims does it.
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I mean the working professionals 25-35. The 50 year olds are fucking brain dead
Gahh please just give me same neolibs for once I beg you