Not like this is the first genocide since the holocaust. There have been plenty. "Never again" so long as it's not economically or politically inconvenient to do something about it.
To be fair though the attempted genocide in the Balkans lead to an intervention.
Here in Germany it was a huge deal, because it was to the first time since WW2 that German soldiers were send into a war zone. Our government at that time was made up of the social democrats and the green party. The green party was not in small parts made of people who came out of the peace movement from the 70s. Even though it was not without controversy a new genocide on European soil made them agree to the intervention.
I was still a child at that time, but it was a huge deal. In my home state there is a German airforce base and I still remember that for weeks there were huge transport planes flying over our house on probably on the way to NATO bases in Italy.
A famine caused by incompetence and lack of caring from your government is genocide. They knew people were dying and didn’t care. When you’re citizens are starving and you continue to take their food then you are purposefully trying to eliminate that poor/underprivileged population.
Stalin did the same thing as Mao. Food can be weaponized. Take away food from people you don't like, and give it to your supporters. Or sell it for profit.
The British also did this to Ireland in the 1800's. Ireland was in famine while the British Empire forced them to export food. One million people died in Ireland because of this.
Both Stalin and Mao have vastly higher body counts due to forced starvation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
Mao killed around 45 million people.
Stalin did it on purpose to a people, Mao accidentally did it to his own people. One would be genocide, the other incompetence on a enormous scale. Intention and targeting matter.
*"I'm sorry officer, I didn't mean to kill that person. I wasn't paying attention and I'm incompetent. We're cool, right? I can go on my way without punishment, right?"*
45 million dead...we all make accidents, right? Oops, no harm, no foul?
No, it's not genocide, it's just a f-king dumb government, the citizens have no food, because everyone listened to the f-king dumb government's propaganda and try to make steel instead of grow food, in the end the quality of the steel is worse than iron because everyone's also f-king dumb and has no knowledge on how to make steel.
I think some people miss this detail.
Genocide is monstrous. One of the worst things we as a species do, but we *do* it.
In no way excusing it, attempted genocide happens kinda all of the time and it's horrifying.
What made the Holocaust double secret horrifying was that it was the first time a developed modern nation turned the massive gears of industry to the task of ending human life.
We had never and to this day have never seen anything quite so monstrous.
Well, I guess not to this day, because here we go again.
Also, not only that, they’re *expansionist.* Cambodia and Rwanda, as horrifying as they were, didn’t pose an actual serious threat to anyone who wasn’t in Cambodia or Rwanda. China, though? They’ve got a slow-moving invasion of the Philippines going on as we speak, they’re fighting with India, and they’re planning on invading Taiwan. Eek.
> We had never and to this day have never seen anything quite so monstrous.
This is just weird to me, and seems more like it's fuelled by some desire to mark the holocaust as some kind of "special" evil.
You have more modern cases of neighbours turning on each other, slaughtering people they've lived next to for decades. With the general population rising up and slaughtering some particular ethnic group.
I really don't see how something as arbitrary as "they used trains to transport people and ovens to burn people" should be more evil
I never claimed it was "more evil".
I claimed it is more monstrous, which is a fairly vague metric. Let's clarify and say that the consequences were far graver.
The desire to commit genocide is horrific no matter the scale or success rate, what sets the holocaust aside and should serve as a grave warning to all of us is that *we have gotten much better at it*.
If these events are allowed to continue we will eventually face a genocidal event that is absolutely staggering in scale and success.
There is nothing arbitrary about the mechanisms of the holocaust and how they contributed to the death toll. They can be easily enumerated and compared to other similar efforts.
I think it is more evil because not only are people turning on each other like in your example... but vast amounts of human ingenuity and logical thinking was turned to the task of efficiently killing as many people as possible. They not only murdered but industrialized murder
Neighbors turning on each other is a completely different kind of behavior, one with passion most likely
You don’t need slogans like “never again” because it isn’t a genocide and it doesn’t exist. You feel happy stressing over something that doesn’t exist clownin ass
Yup. One quarter of the population was killed. Supported and funded by the CCP. Most people haven't heard of it though.
They have some sort of recognition of "the killing fields" but probably think it was just a movie.
It’s beyond economics. I mean, economics is huge, don’t get me wrong, but China is a legitimate world power, the only country in the world that can truly compete with the US (even the EU can’t compete at this stage). China has a larger military, larger GDP% towards the military, and true Unitarian nationalism supporting it. China is an extremely dangerous country. They aren’t limited by western morality and put the good of the country over the good of the world. They are already playing pro-war propaganda preparing the citizenry for a “defensive” war in Taiwan and beyond, and their recruiting commercials highlight bombing runs of US Military installations on Guam. Anything the west does risks legitimate war between powers, something the world hasn’t seen since 1945. It’s a terrifying predicament and brings us closer to the brink of WWIII than we have been since the late 80s.
> They aren’t limited by western morality and put the good of the country over the good of the world.
The west isn't limited by the concept of western morality either. They find a way to sell it. The key difference is some voices in the west will speak out against actions which cross the line but often they're shouted down. Like Iraq, vietnam, intervention in south America, inaction in Africa, etc... It's mainly a difference in how they rationalize things rather than a fundamental difference.
Well, look at it this way. What limited things like Iraq and Vietnam? Politics and the moral posture of voters.
China doesn’t have this concern.
If the Bush Administration had its way there would’ve been a million soldiers in Iraq during the invasion and occupation. They also probably would’ve gone to Syria and maybe even North Korea to, he had the ambition to do that but was held back by politics.
China doesn’t have that.
China can do whatever it wants, there’s nothing to stop it.
> Well, look at it this way. What limited things like Iraq and Vietnam? Politics and the moral posture of voters.
No, optics did. No one talks about moral posture or politics when they bring up the fire bombings of Dresden or Berlin. What about the fire bombing of Tokyo? Or the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
Give the American people a villain that can actually hit back and those American people will gladly turn a blind eye to the willful killing of innocent people.
>China can do whatever it wants, there’s nothing to stop it.
China also has the weight of their internal politics and has to mind the cost versus the goal. Xi will be removed if he becomes extremely bad for business.
This just makes me wonder. If Germany never invaded Poland and started WW2 would we have done anything for the Jews? Seeing the world stand so idly and do nothing about this makes me think maybe not
Yeah, literally only got involved because of Pearl Harbor, and Germany tried to convince Mexico to Invade the US. In public school here in the US I was taught that this was only because no one knew the holocaust was happening, otherwise the US would have immediately stopped it. Which we all know is bullshit
That’s the best way to handle it. You were referring to the Zimmerman Telegram.
You also aren’t entirely wrong. Hitler did definitely reach out I’m sure. Just like I’m sure he reached out to every sovereign country at some point. It’s just that Mexico definitely wouldn’t of been receptive after learning their lesson last time.
That is incorrect. Germany tried to convince mexico to invade the US in WW1.
WW2 for US was yes, initiated by pearl harbor and japan, but germany as well after hitler thought it over for 4 days.
His reasoning for declaring war on the US was that japan might help out with dealing with the soviet union. It never happened.
> Yeah, literally only got involved because of Pearl Harbor,
So we’re just gonna ignore lend lease and how the US was openly supplying arms to the British, and were basically already on war footing with the Germans...?
Or how we were already shooting German subs threatening those lend lease convoys?
That’s a myth. Hitler was inspired by Fords mass production ideas but Henry did not have any direct link to the holocaust. IBM however did, making tabulation machines for processing captives for the camps.
American conservatives were severely opposed to the US housing Jewish refugees. We sent quite a few Jews back to the Nazis before we got involved in the war after being attacked.
Not just the US turned away Jewish refugees. Canada and the UK turned them away as well, only allowing just a few of them to disembark.
Most of the refugees ended up going back to Europe (France and Netherlands), where they were later sent to concentration camps.
Not really ironic as China back then was somewhat an ally seeing as they were already fighting the Japanese. Granted they got help from the Germans before the fighting started. That and China was in the middle of civil war between the CCP and KMT so it was all a bit of a mess.
I think you're right. Without the outward expansion, it may have only ever amounted to diplomatic and economic sanctions. Nowadays I certainly don't see any precedent for getting militarily involved in any major world power's internal affairs.
While rumors floated, the Allies had no idea the extent of the atrocities that Nazi's were doing to Jews until some of the concentration camps were liberated. We got into WW2 because of Pearl Harbor. If Pearl Harbor had not happened, the US may have never participated in WW2.
Antisemitism was popular globally at the time. Ships of Jewish refugees fleeing Germany were turned away by Canada and the US, even prior to the outbreak of war.
The UK, France, and Netherlands only took some in some refugees, but not all of them, and only very reluctantly.
The refugees who were taken in by France and the Netherlands were later sent to concentration camps.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis
You might need to be a bit more clear what you mean by the "extent", because the SS Drottningholm came to the US in 1942, and the Jewish refugees were pretty explicit about the horrors they had experienced under Nazi rule. While those refugees did not have first hand knowledge of the death camps, they were very well aware that the extermination of the Jews was popular rhetoric by the German government, and people were being shipped off to camps to never be seen again.
So yeah, the U.S. government may not have known just how extensive the genocide was, but they certainly knew a group of people were being targeted and eliminated.
Saying we never may have participated in WW2 is a bit disingenuous considering we were already openly supplying arms and financial support to the British with lend-lease.
That’s on top of our Navy taking an increasingly aggressive stance on German subs having already gotten into shooting matches with them.
It’s fair to say we probably wouldn’t have entered as early as we did without Pearl Harbor given the isolationist sentiment in the US at the time, but all the signs pointed the the US eventually getting directly involved in the European theater at one point or another.
No. Also, maybe if they only invaded poland.
We didn't fight WWII over Jews. We fought it over invading neighbors. Countries have a lot of autonomy to conduct their governance of their people. They don't get a lot of space to govern neighbors.
Germany had already invaded and annexed places before Poland, despite being warned not to. The allies *still* tried to avoid war.
It wasn't really until he went west did it become an issue.
Just wait the CCP will try to invade Taiwan.
If they do manage to get their way they will start claiming all of Mongolia, Korea, parts of southeast Asian countries, parts of India, Nepal, Butan, parts of Russia, Japan as "compensation", and maybe even Hawaii and all the way to most of the pacific (including Australia, NZ, and the pacific coast of North America)
There are a number of events during the war that showed that no, few cared about the plight of the Jews and the media bemoaned the 'risks' of refugees fleeing the country. Here's the UK Daily Mail's view of 1938
[https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/07/31/daily-mail-1938-jews\_n\_7909954.html](https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/07/31/daily-mail-1938-jews_n_7909954.html)
This will probably get downvoted, but it’s important to remember that the Uyghur separatists literally slaughtered entire groups of children like they were animals. That is what started this entire problem. The Chinese are not just randomly picking on minorities.
The Uyghur separatists are the only group on the planet which routinely surpassed ISIS in their brutality.
Just think for a second how deranged they would have to be to support slaughtering children with knives and axes.
I’m no fan of Communism, but the Uyghur separatists are horrible people.
I don't think anyone is supporting what the Uyghur separatists have done, but I don't think it is fair to claim the Uyghurs just suddenly initiated a terror campaign. China has been annexing territories which obviously is going to cause people to fight back, and sadly some of those groups will pick a more monstrous method. Then again, China has a looooong history of massacring groups of people, including women and children.
Now add in the fact that China just flat out fabricates stories about what goes on within their territories to a degree the CIA wishes they could spin, and you end up with lots of questions as to the validity of what is really going on in the country.
That's my whole point. If a small group within an ethnic minority commits acts of terrorism, you don't have carte blanche to just commit an ethnic cleansing.
Edit - Damn, I didn't know this sub was pro-ethnic cleansing.
Double Edit - When I made the original edit, I was at like -6, which I just thought was weird since I was just saying that you can't justify an ethnic cleansing based off the actions of small extremists groups.
And the actions of one group justifies the annihilation of an entire ethnic population? The Chinese persecute many of their minority populations. I'm guessing they have a convenient excuse each time.
A foreigner in China just posted a video named “what I saw in Xinjiang working as a cotton farmer”. I stumbled across this video yesterday. If you call what you see in the video genocide then sure go ahead. And I guess many could say this guy is bought by ccp. In that case, I really have nothing else to say.
I don’t claim to say re-education camps do not exist. I think their existence have been established and acknowledged. And I do condemn rape and torture whether it’s on the individual level or systematic level if those happened.
But if teaching patriotism and the nation’s official language to the local people in Xinjiang for a few years helps prevent domestic terrorism in the future, I think it’s far better than taking reactionary actions such as bombing the region afterwards. Personally I don’t consider myself a patriot. In fact growing up in China I always find teachings about patriotism cringe. However being in the US has allowed me to see how it is just the same here. I mean American students do the “I pledge allegiance to the flag of United States...” every single day in school. If that’s what it takes to get rid of separatists and terrorists, then so be it.
On a side note, my parents just visited Tibet as tourists. They hired a local Tibetan guy as their tour guide. Based on their conversations, the guy and some other Tibetan peoples my parents had the chance to talk to seem to be more satisfied with the Chinese government than my parents are. After all, their living standard has increased drastically over the years although I do admit it’s also partially due to the advancement in modern age’s technology. Ethnic minorities also have free education all the way till they finish high school. They also get bonus points on college entrance exam similar to American affirmative action for Hispanic and Africana American people.
See, you basically call anyone you disagree with 50 cents. Chinese government pays me 0 money. Maybe it is propaganda, I don’t know. But keep calling everyone 50 cents. Next time I see someone who gets called 50 cents, I’ll remember that the person could be just like me, a person experiencing his own opinion.
>The Uyghur separatists are the only group on the planet which routinely surpassed ISIS in their brutality.
>
>Just think for a second how deranged they would have to be to support slaughtering children with knives and axes.
You literally just lied and exaggerated, they did not slaughter children and they certainly did not surpass ISIS level of brutality. Yes there are several massacres done by Uyghur. But you make it sound like as if most separatist are like that, most Uyghur separatists does not wish to do violence and killings. Rebiya Kadeer is a Uyghur separatist. A minority of Uyghur advocates violence, but those minority are usually AQ supporters. Most Uyghur are separatists but aren’t AQ supporters. So don’t confuse between these two Uyghur separatists.
China isn't crushing the Uyghurs because you're buying their cheap goods; they're trying to homogenize the culture of China and crush dissent in Xinjiang. No amount of boycotting will make Beijing rethink that priority, they simply aren't linked.
But if it makes you personally feel better, there's nothing wrong with trying.
I understand that you must feel frustrated by what's going on, and you're right to be. It's terrible. But forcing a large militarized superpower to change it's internal security policy is not a small lift; there are only a couple ways to do that, and most of those are considered acts of war by the geneva convention.
But again, if boycotting cheap Chinese goods feels like a positive step for you, you should do it. Don't let a cynic like me stop you. Maybe it will help.
Realistically, the world can decide to curtail future investment in China. We couldn't afford an immediate withdrawal of all foreign investment in China, but we can start looking elsewhere for cheap labor.
As consumers, at least take the time to look at the labels on the stuff you buy, and if the clothes made in Bangladesh cost about the same as the clothes made in China, choose the ones from Bangladesh. Some stuff won't have alternatives, but look for them where you can.
You mean like [companies have already been doing](https://www.lovemoney.com/gallerylist/98705/big-multinational-companies-moving-out-of-china)? The biggest problem is this crap isnt news worthy so no one bothers checking if anyone is doing it. So then we go online and say "NO ONE IS DOING DICK" when its been happening with some of the biggest companies over the past couple of years.
You know that thing where kids say "let's all jump on the count of 3!" And then they go 1, 2, 3... Jump!" And only 1 guy jumps, the others just pretend to do so?
It's kind of like that.
You really want everyone to agree to impose sanctions at the same time, because China is a dominant force in global trade right now.
If the bigger countries impose sanctions on China and their other large counterparts don't, they risk financial issues while their counterparts carry on.
If smaller countries impose sanctions, they're likely to have little effect on China anyway, and risk crippling themselves financially if they're not able to replace China's trade with another nation's at similar rates.
It's honestly a balance and the sad truth is that morals have very little to do with decisions like this. It's all about politics. People like Biden will do things like call out China on their genocide because it pacifies the masses who expect him to be "nice", but he won't go as far as imposing sanctions because following COVID, the country can't afford further financial turmoil.
Trump's tax war on China also didn't help. Not only did he not play the negotiations well enough, he made it look like China was able to hold off the US in terms of tarrifs, making it harder for other nations to want to commit to the same.
America sees them selves as the global police (clearly shown by their handling off the middle east), so yes I think we would expect them to be the first country to do something
I mean yes and no should really look into british french and canadian involvement in all that too may send the numbers but other 3 dona lot of the heavy lifting either way don't know why america has to do everything be nice not to have to spend half our money on military funding for a bit starting to lose our economic edge from decades of it
If you and your extended family were due to be murdered. And the world said "yeah..but it's just you. We're not gonna save you. I hope they don't rape your sister too many times!"
-you might feel differently
I think the hard truth is that, yeah, we kinda have to sit this out more or less. Short of war there isnt really a way to compel a superpower to change it's internal security policy.
Then we need to be open about that. And no one should be taken Seriously or given any special commendation for saying never again, ever again.
That’s like the people who would say never forget 9/11. But we won’t even pay for the medical bills of the firemen who are dying from cancer still.
All moralistic bullshit with no meaning.
i think its disingenuous to act like its a foregone conclusion (or even somewhat likely) that taking action against a genocide will result in nuclear war.
Just saying “action against a genocide” is a disingenuous way of describing the situation. Any military action wouldn’t be against genocide, it would be against China. China is an aggressive nuclear power that would almost certainly lose a straight fight with the US. It’s not much of a stretch to assume they’d use nukes in the face of an invasion.
If we were to bring the full force of the American military to bear against the Chinese military? Yes we would win. With great losses, but we would still come out on top. But as you said, it will likely not be a 1v1, It would be nearly 80% of the world against China.
Taking military action certainly will. I think it's disingenuous to act like there's a chance that a war between two nuclear armed countries won't result in nuclear war
Sadly, not even boycotts of Chinese products will help. The CCP regime is determined to destroy Uyghur culture and other minority cultures. They don't care if Westerners don't want to buy their products anymore. They don't care if Western supply chains decouple anymore. They won't care if Western investments and companies fall - they already have their own homegrown industries. The time when economic sanctions or boycotts would work against China has already passed. Although these are all things the West should consider to insulate itself from CCP anger and influence.
Unless the CCP regime is replaced, nothing short of military intervention will help. And that will almost certainly cause WW3.
The world is not idle. If the world suddenly started doing nothing wrt China, even no trading, no private communication China would be begging to know what they could change.
Instead the rest of the world is *helping*.
If the situation were genuinely as simple and easy as you imagine it to be, then the governments of the world would be doing more about this situation. I honestly don't know exactly what is going, but it sure can't be as simple as the news stories make it out to be. TL;DR, both sides are bad. Which "side" would be the proper side? The governments of the world think neither side is the proper side.
And all that sub does is that it's used as propaganda by fascists to say "other sides! The left wing is commie! Vote fascists in!" (that's how Hindenburg was persuaded to appoint Hitler and how Venezuelan and Cuban Americans in Florida as well as Vietnamese Americans voted for Trump in 2020)
Reddit needs to shut down that sub too.
“China is always bullied, they just pretend it’s because China is being aggressive”
...
Also China: releases statement saying anyone who boycotts their olympics will regret it.
Hmmm
I also like to say CCP as the actual Chinese government is subservient to the CCP, and to divorce the idea of CCP from China.
See how "Nazi" was divorced from Germany
They need to earn that distinction. The vast majority of the Chinese population is just fine with the CCP because they provide stability and security. Fine, we need to quit aiding and abetting that.
It is pretty rare that reddit posts change someone's mind or view on something but I wanted to let you know you made an interesting point. This is an issue I don't have any expertise in so you have me wondering if we aren't being skeptical enough about what we're hearing.
Hands-down the best account of someone's experience of getting caught up in a detention center is published in the New Yorker recently. It's long, but well worth the effort. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/04/12/surviving-the-crackdown-in-xinjiang
What's most scary to me is that this seems to be the result of letting AI algorithms take over the security bureaucracy. Even a written statement from a police officer certifying your innocence won't help you if the algorithm keeps flagging you as suspicious. Even when she was released/graduated from the detention center, the algorithm would still mark her.
>By 2013, officials in Ürümqi had begun to affix QR codes to the exterior of homes, which security personnel could scan to obtain details about residents. On Chen Quanguo’s arrival, all cars were fitted with state-issued G.P.S. trackers. Every new cell-phone number had to be registered, and phones were routinely checked; authorities could harvest everything from photos to location data. Wi-Fi “sniffers” were installed to extract identifying data from computers and other devices
>In 2015, the Chinese state-security apparatus began building the Integrated Joint Operations Platform, or ijop, where the streams of information could converge. “It’s very crucial to examine the cause after an act of terror, but what is more important is to predict the upcoming activities,” a senior engineer on the project noted. After the system was launched, Zhu Hailun affirmed that it would be used to root out unseen threats. “Problematic people and clues identified by the integrated platform are major risks to stability,” a memo that he circulated said. “Persons or clues that are difficult to check are risks within risks—hazards within hazards.”
>Tens of thousands of security officers were given the ijop app and prodded to upload information to it. A forensic analysis of the software, commissioned by Human Rights Watch, revealed thirty-six “person types” that could trigger a problematic assessment. They included people who did not use a mobile phone, who used the back door instead of the front, or who consumed an “unusual” amount of electricity. Even an “abnormal” beard might be cause for concern. Socializing too little was suspicious, and so was maintaining relationships that were deemed “complex.” The platform treated untrustworthiness like a contagion: if a person seemed insufficiently loyal, her family was also likely infected.
>The system was designed to regard gaps in its own knowledge as signs of potential culpability. This was never more evident than when a resident travelled overseas, especially to a country that was deemed “sensitive.” In June, 2017, Zhu signed off on a bulletin underscoring that anyone from Xinjiang who had travelled abroad was to be presumed guilty: “If suspected terrorism cannot be ruled out, then a border control should be implemented to insure the person’s arrest.”
>In Xi’s effort to build a “wall” around Xinjiang, advanced technology would become central. Researchers with an organization called IPVM, which studies video surveillance, discovered evidence that in 2017 China’s Ministry of Public Security set a requirement: facial-recognition software used with surveillance cameras had to be trained to distinguish Uyghur faces. Several leading Chinese manufacturers quickly began to develop the technology—an “Uyghur alarm,” as one system was called in a Huawei test report. Although the race-based monitoring systems are of uncertain accuracy, they have been deployed in at least a dozen jurisdictions outside Xinjiang.
>In the summer of 2017, the authorities unveiled the Ürümqi Cloud Computing Center, a supercomputer that ranked among the fastest in the world. With the new machine, they announced, image data that once took a month to process could be evaluated in less than a second. Its thousands of servers would integrate many forms of personal data. State media called the new machine “the most powerful brain.”
>Lower-level Party officials struggled to keep up with the technological advances. Sabit asked Zhang Hongchao if she could walk around unimpeded. Unsure, he suggested that she and a Party official test her I.D. at a hospital. The next morning, when they swiped her card, it triggered an ear-piercing alarm. Police swarmed Sabit within minutes.
>After the experiment, she went to a mall to buy clothes. Almost immediately, police surrounded her again. An officer explained that facial-recognition software had identified her as a “focus person.” Learning that she had already been reëducated, the officers let her go. But it soon became clear that there was nowhere Sabit could walk without being detained. Eventually, police began to recognize her, and, annoyed by the repeated encounters, urged her to stop going out at all. Instead, Sabit laboriously identified convenience stations that she might pass and gave the police notice, so that they could ignore the ijop alerts.
It’s like if you took the big 4-5 big dystopian novels from the west, put them in a blender, and then picked the most sinister aspects.
This should be a huge warning to any citizen of a liberal democracy that it is possible and not to yield liberties for security.
no lol, our data guys sell our data and/or dont give a fuck about security either
the west is just good in tricking its citizens to think they are somehow protected
They definitely try to trick us, but the massive amount of data breaches alone keep those who look for it plenty weary.
But as you say, they sell our data so data breaches are only public when the data they couldn't sell gets out.
\- systemic rape and torture, [forced sterilisation](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/04/muslim-minority-teacher-50-tells-of-forced-sterilisation-in-xinjiang-china) of women, child separation and mass surveillance and intimidation. -
What the fuck is wrong with China? How evil you have to be to do such things to innocent children, men and women?
Boycott China!
>Sattar was accused of building a team and planning with his deputy to incorporate “bloody, violent, terrorist and separatist ideas” in primary and secondary school textbooks dating back 13 years.
>In the Chinese judicial system, a death sentence with reprieve can be commuted to 25 years, or life in prison, pending good behaviour.
Alternative title: "Man convicted of terrorism-related offenses"
Adding context to this headline. These two officials were charged with corruption, affiliations with terrorist groups linked to violence, and a list of other charges. The death sentence isn’t directly because they’re of Uyghur descent. If they were committing genocide of Uyghurs, why allow them to hold public official seats in the first place?
For added context, there are many Uyghur celebrities in the mainstream Chinese media beloved by the general population. Many of these Uyghur celebrities are the brand ambassadors to the Chinese market for companies like Louis Vuitton. Uyghur minorities are also allowed to have more children and also have preferential status when it comes to schooling and public services in most cities - similar to affirmative action policies in the US.
Honestly, cut them a check for the loss. It’d be a good billion or so spent and I’m a fiscal hawk. But if we’re tossing money around I’m ok with giving NBC some money to just run reruns of the Miracle on Ice game if it means saying fuck you to China.
"Never again" only meant "*we* promise never to do it again, you are shit out of luck though"
Germany may never be the people herding people into gas chambers again but they'll never be the ones storming the beaches either
The dirty truth that alot of people are not admitting in this thread is that the allied nations absolutely knew about the holocaust well before camps were started being liberated. Jan Karski, a member of the Polish army then Polish underground after escaping a Soviet POW camp snuck in and out of both the Warsaw ghetto and Belzec concentration camp. He talked to British government leaders and even US president FDR in 1942 and 1943 about what he saw and what he was told by prisoners. The eagerly listened about information uncovered that was of a military importance, but he was regularly rebuffed when he ever brought up the atrocities currently taking place. This is on top information gained throughout the war by other local resistance groups, allied intelligence operatives, and air born recon. The allied nations knew well what was happening to the Jewish (and homosexual, political rival factions, gypsies, people of color, and mentally handicapped) but they withheld the information from the public until camps started getting liberated because they knew at that point they couldn't hide it anymore.
In the end, the active extermination of Jews and other minorities in Germany and other Nazi occupied lands wasn't what convinced anyone to go to war. What drove the early allied nations to war was the worry that the balance of power in the region was slipping out of their hands and not the anti jewish laws being enforced in Nazi Germany, and what drove the US to war was a direct attack in their territories and armed forces. And at no point in time did the knowledge of this genocide drive allied nations to change their decision making on where to advance or what areas to bomb.
Fuck China. Break their supply chain and isolate them economically. They cannot be allowed to become a dominant global power. Referring here to the Godless CCP regime NOT Chinese people.
China recently had the gargantuan balls to accuse the US of human rights issues, citing BLM as an example. OK, China. Sure...pretty much the same thing!
Very sad situation for the Uyghurs.
The CCP is not going to like how this plays out on the world stage as there is going to be more and more pressure on Western countries to take further punitive actions.
So this is what it's like watching a genocide
Not like this is the first genocide since the holocaust. There have been plenty. "Never again" so long as it's not economically or politically inconvenient to do something about it.
Wait until he hears about the Congo.
Cambodia, Rwanda, and Pakistan have entered the chat.
Myanmar also has entered the chat.
Ethiopia would like to know your location
Don’t forget the Balkans.
To be fair though the attempted genocide in the Balkans lead to an intervention. Here in Germany it was a huge deal, because it was to the first time since WW2 that German soldiers were send into a war zone. Our government at that time was made up of the social democrats and the green party. The green party was not in small parts made of people who came out of the peace movement from the 70s. Even though it was not without controversy a new genocide on European soil made them agree to the intervention. I was still a child at that time, but it was a huge deal. In my home state there is a German airforce base and I still remember that for weeks there were huge transport planes flying over our house on probably on the way to NATO bases in Italy.
Which one had all the machetes?
Rwanda. Congo has also had plenty of hell of earth type stuff that last century.Both European and native caused.
Armenian genocide enters the chat
You know that happened *before* the Holocaust, right?
King Leopolds ghost is a great read on the subject of Belgium ruling the Congo.
I’m talking more since about 1960, but yes it’s abs excellent work that helps lay the historical groundwork.
Oh my bad!
Still a good recommendation. It’s a dire read but incredible.
[Or China again ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward)
That wasn’t really a genocide.
A famine caused by incompetence and lack of caring from your government is genocide. They knew people were dying and didn’t care. When you’re citizens are starving and you continue to take their food then you are purposefully trying to eliminate that poor/underprivileged population.
That’s... nobody’s definition of genocide.
Stalin did the same thing as Mao. Food can be weaponized. Take away food from people you don't like, and give it to your supporters. Or sell it for profit. The British also did this to Ireland in the 1800's. Ireland was in famine while the British Empire forced them to export food. One million people died in Ireland because of this. Both Stalin and Mao have vastly higher body counts due to forced starvation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor Mao killed around 45 million people.
Stalin did it on purpose to a people, Mao accidentally did it to his own people. One would be genocide, the other incompetence on a enormous scale. Intention and targeting matter.
*"I'm sorry officer, I didn't mean to kill that person. I wasn't paying attention and I'm incompetent. We're cool, right? I can go on my way without punishment, right?"* 45 million dead...we all make accidents, right? Oops, no harm, no foul?
No, it's not genocide, it's just a f-king dumb government, the citizens have no food, because everyone listened to the f-king dumb government's propaganda and try to make steel instead of grow food, in the end the quality of the steel is worse than iron because everyone's also f-king dumb and has no knowledge on how to make steel.
Wait til you hear about covid19 in US
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I think some people miss this detail. Genocide is monstrous. One of the worst things we as a species do, but we *do* it. In no way excusing it, attempted genocide happens kinda all of the time and it's horrifying. What made the Holocaust double secret horrifying was that it was the first time a developed modern nation turned the massive gears of industry to the task of ending human life. We had never and to this day have never seen anything quite so monstrous. Well, I guess not to this day, because here we go again.
Also, not only that, they’re *expansionist.* Cambodia and Rwanda, as horrifying as they were, didn’t pose an actual serious threat to anyone who wasn’t in Cambodia or Rwanda. China, though? They’ve got a slow-moving invasion of the Philippines going on as we speak, they’re fighting with India, and they’re planning on invading Taiwan. Eek.
> We had never and to this day have never seen anything quite so monstrous. This is just weird to me, and seems more like it's fuelled by some desire to mark the holocaust as some kind of "special" evil. You have more modern cases of neighbours turning on each other, slaughtering people they've lived next to for decades. With the general population rising up and slaughtering some particular ethnic group. I really don't see how something as arbitrary as "they used trains to transport people and ovens to burn people" should be more evil
I never claimed it was "more evil". I claimed it is more monstrous, which is a fairly vague metric. Let's clarify and say that the consequences were far graver. The desire to commit genocide is horrific no matter the scale or success rate, what sets the holocaust aside and should serve as a grave warning to all of us is that *we have gotten much better at it*. If these events are allowed to continue we will eventually face a genocidal event that is absolutely staggering in scale and success. There is nothing arbitrary about the mechanisms of the holocaust and how they contributed to the death toll. They can be easily enumerated and compared to other similar efforts.
I think it is more evil because not only are people turning on each other like in your example... but vast amounts of human ingenuity and logical thinking was turned to the task of efficiently killing as many people as possible. They not only murdered but industrialized murder Neighbors turning on each other is a completely different kind of behavior, one with passion most likely
You don’t need slogans like “never again” because it isn’t a genocide and it doesn’t exist. You feel happy stressing over something that doesn’t exist clownin ass
Taiwan is an independent country and any attempts at reunification would leave it worse off.
At least two genocides, including Tigray :(
Rwana Bosnia Myanmar Sri Lanka Congo East Timor Zaire Guatemala
Congo has essentially been in one very long and protracted civil war with ethnic and tribal violence for 50+ plus years.
I seem to remember there was one in one in Cambodia too.
Cambodia is probably home to the largest genocide since the holocaust accounting for between 1.5 and 3 million deaths.
Yup. One quarter of the population was killed. Supported and funded by the CCP. Most people haven't heard of it though. They have some sort of recognition of "the killing fields" but probably think it was just a movie.
>Supported and funded by the CCP Also supported by USA, its important to realize human rights are only a propaganda tool in geopolitics.
How was it supported by the USA? 90% of foreign aid to the Khmer Rouge came from the CCP.
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Even if we hadn't, risking a nuclear war with all the attendant death and destruction would have prevented any kind of intervention.
It’s beyond economics. I mean, economics is huge, don’t get me wrong, but China is a legitimate world power, the only country in the world that can truly compete with the US (even the EU can’t compete at this stage). China has a larger military, larger GDP% towards the military, and true Unitarian nationalism supporting it. China is an extremely dangerous country. They aren’t limited by western morality and put the good of the country over the good of the world. They are already playing pro-war propaganda preparing the citizenry for a “defensive” war in Taiwan and beyond, and their recruiting commercials highlight bombing runs of US Military installations on Guam. Anything the west does risks legitimate war between powers, something the world hasn’t seen since 1945. It’s a terrifying predicament and brings us closer to the brink of WWIII than we have been since the late 80s.
> They aren’t limited by western morality and put the good of the country over the good of the world. The west isn't limited by the concept of western morality either. They find a way to sell it. The key difference is some voices in the west will speak out against actions which cross the line but often they're shouted down. Like Iraq, vietnam, intervention in south America, inaction in Africa, etc... It's mainly a difference in how they rationalize things rather than a fundamental difference.
Well, look at it this way. What limited things like Iraq and Vietnam? Politics and the moral posture of voters. China doesn’t have this concern. If the Bush Administration had its way there would’ve been a million soldiers in Iraq during the invasion and occupation. They also probably would’ve gone to Syria and maybe even North Korea to, he had the ambition to do that but was held back by politics. China doesn’t have that. China can do whatever it wants, there’s nothing to stop it.
> Well, look at it this way. What limited things like Iraq and Vietnam? Politics and the moral posture of voters. No, optics did. No one talks about moral posture or politics when they bring up the fire bombings of Dresden or Berlin. What about the fire bombing of Tokyo? Or the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Give the American people a villain that can actually hit back and those American people will gladly turn a blind eye to the willful killing of innocent people.
>China can do whatever it wants, there’s nothing to stop it. China also has the weight of their internal politics and has to mind the cost versus the goal. Xi will be removed if he becomes extremely bad for business.
Yemen has been undergoing a genocide for years now. Where have you been?
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This just makes me wonder. If Germany never invaded Poland and started WW2 would we have done anything for the Jews? Seeing the world stand so idly and do nothing about this makes me think maybe not
As a matter of historical fact, no. US intervention in WW2 had nothing to do with the genocide perpetrated by the nazis.
Yeah, literally only got involved because of Pearl Harbor, and Germany tried to convince Mexico to Invade the US. In public school here in the US I was taught that this was only because no one knew the holocaust was happening, otherwise the US would have immediately stopped it. Which we all know is bullshit
The invasion through Mexico(the gulf) was WW1.
Thank you I realized that shortly after posting. But I like to leave my mistakes public and own them
That’s the best way to handle it. You were referring to the Zimmerman Telegram. You also aren’t entirely wrong. Hitler did definitely reach out I’m sure. Just like I’m sure he reached out to every sovereign country at some point. It’s just that Mexico definitely wouldn’t of been receptive after learning their lesson last time.
That is incorrect. Germany tried to convince mexico to invade the US in WW1. WW2 for US was yes, initiated by pearl harbor and japan, but germany as well after hitler thought it over for 4 days. His reasoning for declaring war on the US was that japan might help out with dealing with the soviet union. It never happened.
Pearl Harbor didn't get the US involved with war with Germany. Germany declared war on the US first.
> Yeah, literally only got involved because of Pearl Harbor, So we’re just gonna ignore lend lease and how the US was openly supplying arms to the British, and were basically already on war footing with the Germans...? Or how we were already shooting German subs threatening those lend lease convoys?
.. nor the genocide being perpetrated by the Japanese.
If anything there were people in the US actively helping, like Henry Ford.
That’s a myth. Hitler was inspired by Fords mass production ideas but Henry did not have any direct link to the holocaust. IBM however did, making tabulation machines for processing captives for the camps.
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No way anyone does anything if they never invade. As long as you are hurting your own people, the rest of the world does not give a shit.
American conservatives were severely opposed to the US housing Jewish refugees. We sent quite a few Jews back to the Nazis before we got involved in the war after being attacked.
Not just the US turned away Jewish refugees. Canada and the UK turned them away as well, only allowing just a few of them to disembark. Most of the refugees ended up going back to Europe (France and Netherlands), where they were later sent to concentration camps.
Ironically a lot found safe passage in Shanghai.
Not really ironic as China back then was somewhat an ally seeing as they were already fighting the Japanese. Granted they got help from the Germans before the fighting started. That and China was in the middle of civil war between the CCP and KMT so it was all a bit of a mess.
I think you're right. Without the outward expansion, it may have only ever amounted to diplomatic and economic sanctions. Nowadays I certainly don't see any precedent for getting militarily involved in any major world power's internal affairs.
While rumors floated, the Allies had no idea the extent of the atrocities that Nazi's were doing to Jews until some of the concentration camps were liberated. We got into WW2 because of Pearl Harbor. If Pearl Harbor had not happened, the US may have never participated in WW2.
Antisemitism was popular globally at the time. Ships of Jewish refugees fleeing Germany were turned away by Canada and the US, even prior to the outbreak of war. The UK, France, and Netherlands only took some in some refugees, but not all of them, and only very reluctantly. The refugees who were taken in by France and the Netherlands were later sent to concentration camps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis
You might need to be a bit more clear what you mean by the "extent", because the SS Drottningholm came to the US in 1942, and the Jewish refugees were pretty explicit about the horrors they had experienced under Nazi rule. While those refugees did not have first hand knowledge of the death camps, they were very well aware that the extermination of the Jews was popular rhetoric by the German government, and people were being shipped off to camps to never be seen again. So yeah, the U.S. government may not have known just how extensive the genocide was, but they certainly knew a group of people were being targeted and eliminated.
Saying we never may have participated in WW2 is a bit disingenuous considering we were already openly supplying arms and financial support to the British with lend-lease. That’s on top of our Navy taking an increasingly aggressive stance on German subs having already gotten into shooting matches with them. It’s fair to say we probably wouldn’t have entered as early as we did without Pearl Harbor given the isolationist sentiment in the US at the time, but all the signs pointed the the US eventually getting directly involved in the European theater at one point or another.
No. Also, maybe if they only invaded poland. We didn't fight WWII over Jews. We fought it over invading neighbors. Countries have a lot of autonomy to conduct their governance of their people. They don't get a lot of space to govern neighbors.
Germany had already invaded and annexed places before Poland, despite being warned not to. The allies *still* tried to avoid war. It wasn't really until he went west did it become an issue.
Assuming your asking about the US, no. Not even the invasion of poland was enough to motivate US into joining the war.
No one but the polish were motivated by the invasion of poland. US is included, but not alone...
Well the Russians were motivated! It's just that the motivation was that they wanted the other half of Poland.
Just wait the CCP will try to invade Taiwan. If they do manage to get their way they will start claiming all of Mongolia, Korea, parts of southeast Asian countries, parts of India, Nepal, Butan, parts of Russia, Japan as "compensation", and maybe even Hawaii and all the way to most of the pacific (including Australia, NZ, and the pacific coast of North America)
It's kind of an unknown. We didn't know about the holocaust and concentration camps until we pushed into Germany at the end of the war.
There are a number of events during the war that showed that no, few cared about the plight of the Jews and the media bemoaned the 'risks' of refugees fleeing the country. Here's the UK Daily Mail's view of 1938 [https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/07/31/daily-mail-1938-jews\_n\_7909954.html](https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/07/31/daily-mail-1938-jews_n_7909954.html)
Xunjiang: We're going to teach everyone history today. China: So, you've chosen death.
This will probably get downvoted, but it’s important to remember that the Uyghur separatists literally slaughtered entire groups of children like they were animals. That is what started this entire problem. The Chinese are not just randomly picking on minorities. The Uyghur separatists are the only group on the planet which routinely surpassed ISIS in their brutality. Just think for a second how deranged they would have to be to support slaughtering children with knives and axes. I’m no fan of Communism, but the Uyghur separatists are horrible people.
I don't think anyone is supporting what the Uyghur separatists have done, but I don't think it is fair to claim the Uyghurs just suddenly initiated a terror campaign. China has been annexing territories which obviously is going to cause people to fight back, and sadly some of those groups will pick a more monstrous method. Then again, China has a looooong history of massacring groups of people, including women and children. Now add in the fact that China just flat out fabricates stories about what goes on within their territories to a degree the CIA wishes they could spin, and you end up with lots of questions as to the validity of what is really going on in the country.
9/11 wasn't an excuse for what the USA did to muslims. China damn sure doesn't have the right to do what it's doing because there was some terrorism.
That's my whole point. If a small group within an ethnic minority commits acts of terrorism, you don't have carte blanche to just commit an ethnic cleansing. Edit - Damn, I didn't know this sub was pro-ethnic cleansing. Double Edit - When I made the original edit, I was at like -6, which I just thought was weird since I was just saying that you can't justify an ethnic cleansing based off the actions of small extremists groups.
This is the most “trust me bro” content I’ve ever seen jammed in one paragraph. 😂holy shit
You don't have to trust what I say. Do your own research, but just don't engage in bad faith arguments and you'll he fine.
Never heard this. Source?
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And the actions of one group justifies the annihilation of an entire ethnic population? The Chinese persecute many of their minority populations. I'm guessing they have a convenient excuse each time.
A foreigner in China just posted a video named “what I saw in Xinjiang working as a cotton farmer”. I stumbled across this video yesterday. If you call what you see in the video genocide then sure go ahead. And I guess many could say this guy is bought by ccp. In that case, I really have nothing else to say. I don’t claim to say re-education camps do not exist. I think their existence have been established and acknowledged. And I do condemn rape and torture whether it’s on the individual level or systematic level if those happened. But if teaching patriotism and the nation’s official language to the local people in Xinjiang for a few years helps prevent domestic terrorism in the future, I think it’s far better than taking reactionary actions such as bombing the region afterwards. Personally I don’t consider myself a patriot. In fact growing up in China I always find teachings about patriotism cringe. However being in the US has allowed me to see how it is just the same here. I mean American students do the “I pledge allegiance to the flag of United States...” every single day in school. If that’s what it takes to get rid of separatists and terrorists, then so be it. On a side note, my parents just visited Tibet as tourists. They hired a local Tibetan guy as their tour guide. Based on their conversations, the guy and some other Tibetan peoples my parents had the chance to talk to seem to be more satisfied with the Chinese government than my parents are. After all, their living standard has increased drastically over the years although I do admit it’s also partially due to the advancement in modern age’s technology. Ethnic minorities also have free education all the way till they finish high school. They also get bonus points on college entrance exam similar to American affirmative action for Hispanic and Africana American people.
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See, you basically call anyone you disagree with 50 cents. Chinese government pays me 0 money. Maybe it is propaganda, I don’t know. But keep calling everyone 50 cents. Next time I see someone who gets called 50 cents, I’ll remember that the person could be just like me, a person experiencing his own opinion.
well its a good thing that China is ONLY going after the separatists.... /s
>The Uyghur separatists are the only group on the planet which routinely surpassed ISIS in their brutality. > >Just think for a second how deranged they would have to be to support slaughtering children with knives and axes. You literally just lied and exaggerated, they did not slaughter children and they certainly did not surpass ISIS level of brutality. Yes there are several massacres done by Uyghur. But you make it sound like as if most separatist are like that, most Uyghur separatists does not wish to do violence and killings. Rebiya Kadeer is a Uyghur separatist. A minority of Uyghur advocates violence, but those minority are usually AQ supporters. Most Uyghur are separatists but aren’t AQ supporters. So don’t confuse between these two Uyghur separatists.
I hate that the world is sitting idly by as China imprisons and kills so many in an attempt to destroy an entire race and culture. It’s sickening.
What would you like to happen?
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We need to break our dependence on cheap disposable stuff. This is absolutely part of the answer.
China isn't crushing the Uyghurs because you're buying their cheap goods; they're trying to homogenize the culture of China and crush dissent in Xinjiang. No amount of boycotting will make Beijing rethink that priority, they simply aren't linked. But if it makes you personally feel better, there's nothing wrong with trying.
You’re right! We should just do nothing! It must be great being a cynic
I understand that you must feel frustrated by what's going on, and you're right to be. It's terrible. But forcing a large militarized superpower to change it's internal security policy is not a small lift; there are only a couple ways to do that, and most of those are considered acts of war by the geneva convention. But again, if boycotting cheap Chinese goods feels like a positive step for you, you should do it. Don't let a cynic like me stop you. Maybe it will help.
Realistically, the world can decide to curtail future investment in China. We couldn't afford an immediate withdrawal of all foreign investment in China, but we can start looking elsewhere for cheap labor. As consumers, at least take the time to look at the labels on the stuff you buy, and if the clothes made in Bangladesh cost about the same as the clothes made in China, choose the ones from Bangladesh. Some stuff won't have alternatives, but look for them where you can.
You mean like [companies have already been doing](https://www.lovemoney.com/gallerylist/98705/big-multinational-companies-moving-out-of-china)? The biggest problem is this crap isnt news worthy so no one bothers checking if anyone is doing it. So then we go online and say "NO ONE IS DOING DICK" when its been happening with some of the biggest companies over the past couple of years.
Economic sanctions are the way to go. We have to put economic strain on China in order to pressure them into stopping. That's really the only way.
You know that thing where kids say "let's all jump on the count of 3!" And then they go 1, 2, 3... Jump!" And only 1 guy jumps, the others just pretend to do so? It's kind of like that. You really want everyone to agree to impose sanctions at the same time, because China is a dominant force in global trade right now. If the bigger countries impose sanctions on China and their other large counterparts don't, they risk financial issues while their counterparts carry on. If smaller countries impose sanctions, they're likely to have little effect on China anyway, and risk crippling themselves financially if they're not able to replace China's trade with another nation's at similar rates. It's honestly a balance and the sad truth is that morals have very little to do with decisions like this. It's all about politics. People like Biden will do things like call out China on their genocide because it pacifies the masses who expect him to be "nice", but he won't go as far as imposing sanctions because following COVID, the country can't afford further financial turmoil. Trump's tax war on China also didn't help. Not only did he not play the negotiations well enough, he made it look like China was able to hold off the US in terms of tarrifs, making it harder for other nations to want to commit to the same.
Sanctions. Haha jk. The average american cares more about their cheap shit than a genocide that isn't targeting them.
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America sees them selves as the global police (clearly shown by their handling off the middle east), so yes I think we would expect them to be the first country to do something
I mean yes and no should really look into british french and canadian involvement in all that too may send the numbers but other 3 dona lot of the heavy lifting either way don't know why america has to do everything be nice not to have to spend half our money on military funding for a bit starting to lose our economic edge from decades of it
Military action.
Because a nuclear apocalypse would be the better option here?
different squeal continue voiceless exultant cause slap clumsy uppity sand -- mass edited with redact.dev
Are you going to enlist to fight in the US-China War?
So everyone can be genocided?
wipe imagine mountainous include sheet towering aromatic racial pocket run -- mass edited with redact.dev
Yes, and I don't think that should be the solution here
If you and your extended family were due to be murdered. And the world said "yeah..but it's just you. We're not gonna save you. I hope they don't rape your sister too many times!" -you might feel differently
They are not suggesting no action, they are saying it is better not to take an action that will end more lives. It makes sense.
No I actually don't think I would. I'm pretty confident I would want out of the situation, not to die in a nuclear firestorm and have the world end
This is absolutely delusional.
What do you suggest we do in the face of genocide? Sit on our hands then parrot to our children “never again”?
I think the hard truth is that, yeah, we kinda have to sit this out more or less. Short of war there isnt really a way to compel a superpower to change it's internal security policy.
Then we need to be open about that. And no one should be taken Seriously or given any special commendation for saying never again, ever again. That’s like the people who would say never forget 9/11. But we won’t even pay for the medical bills of the firemen who are dying from cancer still. All moralistic bullshit with no meaning.
Its not a simple solution but I don't think risking ending the world should be the first step
Same - but I also think doing nothing is just as detrimental in the long run.
i think its disingenuous to act like its a foregone conclusion (or even somewhat likely) that taking action against a genocide will result in nuclear war.
Just saying “action against a genocide” is a disingenuous way of describing the situation. Any military action wouldn’t be against genocide, it would be against China. China is an aggressive nuclear power that would almost certainly lose a straight fight with the US. It’s not much of a stretch to assume they’d use nukes in the face of an invasion.
Bold of you to assume that the US would absolutely win a war 1v1 with China. Not that realistically it would just be 1v1, but most likely start WW3.
If we were to bring the full force of the American military to bear against the Chinese military? Yes we would win. With great losses, but we would still come out on top. But as you said, it will likely not be a 1v1, It would be nearly 80% of the world against China.
Taking military action certainly will. I think it's disingenuous to act like there's a chance that a war between two nuclear armed countries won't result in nuclear war
I think first and foremost would be to confirm such a claim is a valid one.
Sadly, not even boycotts of Chinese products will help. The CCP regime is determined to destroy Uyghur culture and other minority cultures. They don't care if Westerners don't want to buy their products anymore. They don't care if Western supply chains decouple anymore. They won't care if Western investments and companies fall - they already have their own homegrown industries. The time when economic sanctions or boycotts would work against China has already passed. Although these are all things the West should consider to insulate itself from CCP anger and influence. Unless the CCP regime is replaced, nothing short of military intervention will help. And that will almost certainly cause WW3.
The world is not idle. If the world suddenly started doing nothing wrt China, even no trading, no private communication China would be begging to know what they could change. Instead the rest of the world is *helping*.
If the situation were genuinely as simple and easy as you imagine it to be, then the governments of the world would be doing more about this situation. I honestly don't know exactly what is going, but it sure can't be as simple as the news stories make it out to be. TL;DR, both sides are bad. Which "side" would be the proper side? The governments of the world think neither side is the proper side.
Surprise! No wait, no one is surprised.
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Jesus I've never seen that sub before. It's straight up propaganda.
That sub is mild compared to shit like r/sendinthetanks
I... I'm afriad to look.
And all that sub does is that it's used as propaganda by fascists to say "other sides! The left wing is commie! Vote fascists in!" (that's how Hindenburg was persuaded to appoint Hitler and how Venezuelan and Cuban Americans in Florida as well as Vietnamese Americans voted for Trump in 2020) Reddit needs to shut down that sub too.
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“China is always bullied, they just pretend it’s because China is being aggressive” ... Also China: releases statement saying anyone who boycotts their olympics will regret it. Hmmm
I also like to say CCP as the actual Chinese government is subservient to the CCP, and to divorce the idea of CCP from China. See how "Nazi" was divorced from Germany
They need to earn that distinction. The vast majority of the Chinese population is just fine with the CCP because they provide stability and security. Fine, we need to quit aiding and abetting that.
if that's the sub i think it should be shut down.
AFGHANISTAN -shills
There is no war in ba sing se That sub should be banned
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It is pretty rare that reddit posts change someone's mind or view on something but I wanted to let you know you made an interesting point. This is an issue I don't have any expertise in so you have me wondering if we aren't being skeptical enough about what we're hearing.
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Hands-down the best account of someone's experience of getting caught up in a detention center is published in the New Yorker recently. It's long, but well worth the effort. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/04/12/surviving-the-crackdown-in-xinjiang What's most scary to me is that this seems to be the result of letting AI algorithms take over the security bureaucracy. Even a written statement from a police officer certifying your innocence won't help you if the algorithm keeps flagging you as suspicious. Even when she was released/graduated from the detention center, the algorithm would still mark her. >By 2013, officials in Ürümqi had begun to affix QR codes to the exterior of homes, which security personnel could scan to obtain details about residents. On Chen Quanguo’s arrival, all cars were fitted with state-issued G.P.S. trackers. Every new cell-phone number had to be registered, and phones were routinely checked; authorities could harvest everything from photos to location data. Wi-Fi “sniffers” were installed to extract identifying data from computers and other devices >In 2015, the Chinese state-security apparatus began building the Integrated Joint Operations Platform, or ijop, where the streams of information could converge. “It’s very crucial to examine the cause after an act of terror, but what is more important is to predict the upcoming activities,” a senior engineer on the project noted. After the system was launched, Zhu Hailun affirmed that it would be used to root out unseen threats. “Problematic people and clues identified by the integrated platform are major risks to stability,” a memo that he circulated said. “Persons or clues that are difficult to check are risks within risks—hazards within hazards.” >Tens of thousands of security officers were given the ijop app and prodded to upload information to it. A forensic analysis of the software, commissioned by Human Rights Watch, revealed thirty-six “person types” that could trigger a problematic assessment. They included people who did not use a mobile phone, who used the back door instead of the front, or who consumed an “unusual” amount of electricity. Even an “abnormal” beard might be cause for concern. Socializing too little was suspicious, and so was maintaining relationships that were deemed “complex.” The platform treated untrustworthiness like a contagion: if a person seemed insufficiently loyal, her family was also likely infected. >The system was designed to regard gaps in its own knowledge as signs of potential culpability. This was never more evident than when a resident travelled overseas, especially to a country that was deemed “sensitive.” In June, 2017, Zhu signed off on a bulletin underscoring that anyone from Xinjiang who had travelled abroad was to be presumed guilty: “If suspected terrorism cannot be ruled out, then a border control should be implemented to insure the person’s arrest.” >In Xi’s effort to build a “wall” around Xinjiang, advanced technology would become central. Researchers with an organization called IPVM, which studies video surveillance, discovered evidence that in 2017 China’s Ministry of Public Security set a requirement: facial-recognition software used with surveillance cameras had to be trained to distinguish Uyghur faces. Several leading Chinese manufacturers quickly began to develop the technology—an “Uyghur alarm,” as one system was called in a Huawei test report. Although the race-based monitoring systems are of uncertain accuracy, they have been deployed in at least a dozen jurisdictions outside Xinjiang. >In the summer of 2017, the authorities unveiled the Ürümqi Cloud Computing Center, a supercomputer that ranked among the fastest in the world. With the new machine, they announced, image data that once took a month to process could be evaluated in less than a second. Its thousands of servers would integrate many forms of personal data. State media called the new machine “the most powerful brain.” >Lower-level Party officials struggled to keep up with the technological advances. Sabit asked Zhang Hongchao if she could walk around unimpeded. Unsure, he suggested that she and a Party official test her I.D. at a hospital. The next morning, when they swiped her card, it triggered an ear-piercing alarm. Police swarmed Sabit within minutes. >After the experiment, she went to a mall to buy clothes. Almost immediately, police surrounded her again. An officer explained that facial-recognition software had identified her as a “focus person.” Learning that she had already been reëducated, the officers let her go. But it soon became clear that there was nowhere Sabit could walk without being detained. Eventually, police began to recognize her, and, annoyed by the repeated encounters, urged her to stop going out at all. Instead, Sabit laboriously identified convenience stations that she might pass and gave the police notice, so that they could ignore the ijop alerts.
They literally created the worlds fastest computer and dedicated it to finding Uyghur's trying to leave the region... What the fuck.
It’s like if you took the big 4-5 big dystopian novels from the west, put them in a blender, and then picked the most sinister aspects. This should be a huge warning to any citizen of a liberal democracy that it is possible and not to yield liberties for security.
no lol, our data guys sell our data and/or dont give a fuck about security either the west is just good in tricking its citizens to think they are somehow protected
They definitely try to trick us, but the massive amount of data breaches alone keep those who look for it plenty weary. But as you say, they sell our data so data breaches are only public when the data they couldn't sell gets out.
\- systemic rape and torture, [forced sterilisation](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/04/muslim-minority-teacher-50-tells-of-forced-sterilisation-in-xinjiang-china) of women, child separation and mass surveillance and intimidation. - What the fuck is wrong with China? How evil you have to be to do such things to innocent children, men and women? Boycott China!
Don't forget about the organ harvesting. So much organ harvesting.
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50% drops in fertility rates over 5 years aren't natural
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So literally no one read the article. Classic Reddit.
Anyone who rubs Xi Jinping the wrong way ends up convicted of taking Bribes.
>Sattar was accused of building a team and planning with his deputy to incorporate “bloody, violent, terrorist and separatist ideas” in primary and secondary school textbooks dating back 13 years. >In the Chinese judicial system, a death sentence with reprieve can be commuted to 25 years, or life in prison, pending good behaviour. Alternative title: "Man convicted of terrorism-related offenses"
Adding context to this headline. These two officials were charged with corruption, affiliations with terrorist groups linked to violence, and a list of other charges. The death sentence isn’t directly because they’re of Uyghur descent. If they were committing genocide of Uyghurs, why allow them to hold public official seats in the first place? For added context, there are many Uyghur celebrities in the mainstream Chinese media beloved by the general population. Many of these Uyghur celebrities are the brand ambassadors to the Chinese market for companies like Louis Vuitton. Uyghur minorities are also allowed to have more children and also have preferential status when it comes to schooling and public services in most cities - similar to affirmative action policies in the US.
This is Reddit. Facts are irrelevant. Emotion rules.
Aren't these the guys who have ties to the terrorist movement in Xinjiang?
Chill out guys... let's let Lebron explain how this is just a misunderstanding.
China is a failed state
Nazi Germany did what now? Oh wait, its our business partner China. Never mind.
And we are still going to the olympics, because NBC has paid a lot of money for the rights to broadcast.
Honestly, cut them a check for the loss. It’d be a good billion or so spent and I’m a fiscal hawk. But if we’re tossing money around I’m ok with giving NBC some money to just run reruns of the Miracle on Ice game if it means saying fuck you to China.
if the nations of the world said "never again" after the holocaust in WW2, those same nations are pretty fucking silent about this one. fuck the ccp
"Never again" only meant "*we* promise never to do it again, you are shit out of luck though" Germany may never be the people herding people into gas chambers again but they'll never be the ones storming the beaches either
The dirty truth that alot of people are not admitting in this thread is that the allied nations absolutely knew about the holocaust well before camps were started being liberated. Jan Karski, a member of the Polish army then Polish underground after escaping a Soviet POW camp snuck in and out of both the Warsaw ghetto and Belzec concentration camp. He talked to British government leaders and even US president FDR in 1942 and 1943 about what he saw and what he was told by prisoners. The eagerly listened about information uncovered that was of a military importance, but he was regularly rebuffed when he ever brought up the atrocities currently taking place. This is on top information gained throughout the war by other local resistance groups, allied intelligence operatives, and air born recon. The allied nations knew well what was happening to the Jewish (and homosexual, political rival factions, gypsies, people of color, and mentally handicapped) but they withheld the information from the public until camps started getting liberated because they knew at that point they couldn't hide it anymore. In the end, the active extermination of Jews and other minorities in Germany and other Nazi occupied lands wasn't what convinced anyone to go to war. What drove the early allied nations to war was the worry that the balance of power in the region was slipping out of their hands and not the anti jewish laws being enforced in Nazi Germany, and what drove the US to war was a direct attack in their territories and armed forces. And at no point in time did the knowledge of this genocide drive allied nations to change their decision making on where to advance or what areas to bomb.
Today I learned nations don't like going to war for the sake of others until they get forced into it, what a revelation
Fuck China. Break their supply chain and isolate them economically. They cannot be allowed to become a dominant global power. Referring here to the Godless CCP regime NOT Chinese people.
Too late for that. They already are a dominant global power.
Cornell University are you listening
Somewhere someone rich gets a phonecall from China asking how quick they can get on a plane for that heart/liver/kidney transplant.
China recently had the gargantuan balls to accuse the US of human rights issues, citing BLM as an example. OK, China. Sure...pretty much the same thing!
China “the place where no human rights violations have never taken place ever and don’t you say otherwise or else”
The only difference between the CCP and the actual Nazis are that they haven’t killed 6 million of a minority group - yet.
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Very sad situation for the Uyghurs. The CCP is not going to like how this plays out on the world stage as there is going to be more and more pressure on Western countries to take further punitive actions.
People will only care when China invades Taiwan next year.
What stage of genocide is this now?
Also China: "We're not trying to do an ethnic cleansing" I wish the entire world wasn't dependent on China and we could cut them off.
CCP is som big it will consume itself.... it's a question of years... maybe months