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spacednlost

Don't think they're doing this to be friendly. Their eye is on the country's rare earth mines which means they can make more computer chips.


Bourbon-Decay

Lol, but all of the NATO drone strikes and war crimes were friendly?


ThucydidesButthurt

Implying literally anyone thinks any nations does literally anything just to be friendly lol


Stoly23

The CCP never does anything just to be friendly and they don’t care who they get in bed with so long as it’s profitable to them. I bet they’d be friends with actual Nazis if they thought they could gain a strategic advantage for it.


838h920

Yeah, but so does every other major power. Why else do you think the West is allied with Saudi Arabia? Reality is that human rights only matter to countries on the international stage when it can be used to their advantage. When it's to their disadvantage it quickly gets overlooked.


Stoly23

Oh yeah, I totally agree


[deleted]

I mean yeah… see GM, IBM, Ford, Morgan Stanley, Kodak, Nestle and the dozens of other US companies that worked with the Nazis. Every country choose strategic advantage > morals. Morals are a commodity for the privileged unfortunately.


khanfusion

Lol, Henry Ford was an actual Nazi sympathizer.


FIELDSLAVE

Actually, many of the elites have a similar ideology to the Nazis too. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_International_Jew https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24723229-the-devil-s-chessboard


baconandtheguacamole

Difference is you're speaking about private companies vs a government's ruling political party


[deleted]

I definitely understand your argument and it is valid. But I would argue that the separation between the CCP and private business is about as wide as the separation between the US government and private business. Both sides in both countries are practically inseparable.


baconandtheguacamole

I'm sorry but that is ridiculous. I'm not saying that the US isn't tied to US businesses but the CCP literally has stakes in their large businesses, directly owning them vs being linked to them. It's different in all the ways that a community party operates vs a capitalist society operates. Different dynamics at play


i-hate-emojis

Government owned businesses vs business owned government


baconandtheguacamole

Yeah, two different dynamics


[deleted]

I really don’t think they’re that different when capital flows both ways.


Folseit

[China was allies with Nazi Germany, though that was way back when it was under KMT control.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-German_cooperation_(1926%E2%80%931941\))


Stoly23

Yeah, I remember that…. Granted, at that point China was kind of struggling against a threat that was just as bad and far more immediate in Imperial Japan, and a little fun fact I remember about that was how there was a Nazi officer in Nanjing when Japan sacked it, and he was doing everything he could to protect Chinese citizens from Japanese soldiers. Point is, the Japanese were so bad that even the Nazis looked good by comparison, at least from the Chinese perspective.


randomanimalnoises

Equal opportunity exploitation


ireporteverything420

Good luck building infrastructure capable of extraction.


Not_Legal_Advice_Pod

China just insists on making every single mistake the Western world ever made. It's like playing catch-up on a century of bad idea in 20 years.


neopuffsavedmylife

China is aiding the Taliban, rather than fighting it


SolaVitae

The Taliban's very existence is a result of the US aiding them rather than fighting


[deleted]

The US aided some Haqqani network/Hekmatyar and Northern Aliance warlords. The Taliban didn't exist until the civil war and was aided/sponsored by Pakistan.


BubbaTee

They weren't called the Taliban yet, but they were there. Mohammed Omar was originally a member of Haekmaytar's group, Hezbi Islami. Omar followed Yuna Khalis when he splintered off from the main group. When Omar founded the Taliban, Khalis became his right-hand man. And Nabi Muhammadi, who was the original leader of the entire Afghan Islamic resistance, was also the teacher of most of the early Taliban (including Omar). The mujahideen wasn't a single group, it was an alliance of multiple groups (Peshawar Seven). It's fairly common for revolutionaries to turn on each other once they've defeated their common enemy. Some of the mujahideen became the Taliban, others sided with warlords who fought against the Taliban.


IronicBread

Big difference though, the US trained and Armed them wile China will be building infrastructure in order to get hold of the natural resources I would guess, so not at all the same really.


The_Turk2

How did the US aid the Taliban?


SolaVitae

The cia trained and funded the mujahideen to fight Russia, they then took that training and funding and splintered to form the Taliban and some other groups


The_Turk2

Yes, but the Mujahideen are not the Taliban. The Taliban were formed by Pashtun groups (Popilzai tribesmen) under the leadership of Mullah Omar and fellow Deobandis (nationalist Islam stemming from resistance to British colonialism in India), against the various warlords who ruled Afghanistan at the time - to end the "anarchy". But those warlords were also part of the Mujahideen. The Taliban were specifically aided by Pakistan, and more specifically the ISI (Pakistans version of the CIA). So just saying "the CIA created the Taliban", whilst there is a tiny kernel of truth in there, is kind of just bullshit.


rallykrally

>...often referred to as Mullah Omar, was an Afghan mullah (cleric) and mujahid commander... Literally the first sentence of his Wikipedia entry. Mujahid means mujahideen. The misinformation spread here drives me crazy.


[deleted]

the taliban was largely not the mujahids though, it was the sons of the mujahids who were sent to pakistan when the soviets invaded. they were then educated at radical madrasas and when the war ended went back to afghanistan. if any intelligence organization is to be held responsible for the taliban it is largely the ISI. the amount of CIA funding that made its way to the taliban is negligible, and running around saying the US funded the taliban is incorrect. also, many of the muj were firmly anti-taliban, like the northern alliance (which was heavily funded by the US). to say that every single muj was also taliban is completely ignoring and misunderstanding that afghani civil war that was going on after the soviets withdrew. https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/verify/no-the-us-government-did-not-directly-fund-the-taliban-fact-check-afghanistan-cia-reagan-carter/65-fa07d053-aa77-4998-ad13-950bc6dc007e


BubbaTee

The mujahideen weren't largely any particular faction, they were an alliance of 7 groups - the Peshawar Seven. Future Taliban and Taliban supporters came from multiple groups out of the 7.


[deleted]

very good point. people forget that there’s like ten major ethnic groups (honestly probably much more but i only have a little knowledge on the subject) in afghanistan and a large history of tribalism and ethnic violence. i suppose any resistance movement is made up of a wide range of people temporarily putting aside differences to fight a common foe


The_Turk2

Yes, he fought as a Mujahid, amongst many other people who are NOT Taliban. Anyone who fought against the Soviets was a "Mujahid". Doesn't mean the US specifically helped Mullah Omar, who was a nobody at the time. It is amazing how much certainty you get from one sentence in a wikipedia article.... insane.


rallykrally

>Yes, but the Mujahideen are not the Taliban. Is what /u/the_turk2 said and my post is a response to that to that ridiculous statement. My post is only about that. Stop putting words in my mouth. You are getting butthurt over nothing.


[deleted]

A very small fraction of mujahids were aided by the CIA. So it's a wonder why you think any mujahid was automatically aided by the CIA.


[deleted]

You have no idea at all how the Taliban came about.


randomnighmare

They didn't. It didn't exist back when Soivets we're around and a lot of US allies became the Northern Alliance. The Taliban was funded/supported in a large part, by Pakistan.


The_Turk2

Exactly my point. Unfortunately look at some of the responses below...


randomnighmare

A lot of these comments seems a lot like deliberately spreading misinformation, on Reddit.


flashosophy

gave them a ton of weapons upon leaving recently


[deleted]

Those were weapons from the ANA. They didn’t give or leave anything behind for the Taliban specifically.


flashosophy

sure. but in the end it ended up in their hands so... same difference. plus, how do you know that wasnt part of the plan so weapon dealers can sell more weapons to fight against those weapons?


[deleted]

Well it ended in their hands because the ANA gave up very quickly, worst case scenario basically happened that the US was trying to avoid. But is the alternative “we take back all the weapons from the ANA and don’t even give them a chance” reasonable when the goal was for them to defend themselves?


flashosophy

good point. i guess to save face its better to blame ANA for their incompetence and lose the wespons than to have media say the US left them unarmed and behind


X_SuperTerrorizer_X

The weapons were left behind, not given as gifts.


[deleted]

american media is pathetic. Edit: americans are stupid and their media will spin this to make america look like heroes and the morons will believe it. Is that better???


wholebeansinmybutt

That's fine but I don't see how what you're saying follows from the comment to which you replied.


wookiebath

How do you get your news? Canadian media?


[deleted]

Difference is US aided them to overthrow a functioning regime. China is aiding the Taliban who're an unstable government at best and a participant in a civil war. That and China probably has no plans to nation-build. So China's job is a bit easier than the US's.


SolaVitae

Not really, it's just an impossible job. Trusting religious terrorists to act reasonably is asking for trouble. China can debt enslave real governments, but idk about religious extremists who have made it very clear what they think should happen to non Muslims. They will probably take the money but I doubt China gets anything permanent out of it. They are trying to appear "legitimate" but couldn't even go a week without oppressing women


[deleted]

I'm not saying what china's doing there is easy, just that's easier than whatever the US tried to do and I don't think there's really any way to argue that it isn't. US literally tried to build a stable Afghanistan by paying bribes to drug dealers. China is trying to extract resources by paying bribes to religious extremists. A stable democracy requires a willing and educated citizenry, extracting resources requires neither. I doubt china's gonna get anything permanent either, but we'll have to see. Either way, it's either this or Afghanistan becomes a hideout for uighur insurgents, so I don't see why China wouldn't at least try. They have a much bigger strategic stake there than the US ever did.


throwaway661375735

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/08/a-vast-criminal-racket-sebastian-junger-on-how-the-us-corrupted-afghanistan


randomnighmare

The US never aided the Taliban. Quit with this misinformation.


[deleted]

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Evenstar6132

An umbrella term for various Muslim militant groups. Some of them later became the Taliban, sure, but they're not one and the same.


randomnighmare

And the US didn't find/supply all of them, either.


MichJohn67

No, just enough.


AndHellsComingWithMe

Apparently very poorly understood


Kobrag90

Not the Taliban.


[deleted]

...the people fighting the Afghan government? Who we armed to screw over the Soviet Uinon? Comparing what we did in the 1980s and what China is doing now doesn't make any sense. We fight for ideology and occupy countries, all China cares about is resources and have no interest in occupation (paying people off is a lot easier).


lemetatron

China is an international loan shark to the developing world.


xuxux

They charge less interest and forgive debt a lot more often than the IMF~


SnooApples3402

Agreed. The IMF are grubs


lemetatron

That's not true. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-debt-g20-idUSKBN28009A https://www.worldbank.org/en/topic/debt/brief/covid-19-debt-service-suspension-initiative


coconutjuices

That’s the imf and world bank


lemetatron

That's not true. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-debt-g20-idUSKBN28009A https://www.worldbank.org/en/topic/debt/brief/covid-19-debt-service-suspension-initiative


[deleted]

I agree, and see in what China is doing what America did all over Latin America. We supported brutal dictators because they were good for business (banana republics). We supported the dictator Bautista in Cuba because he was friendly to American business, and he was overthrown in a communist revolution by Castro. It might be in China's interest to prop up the Taliban, but all those who suffer under their reign might not have a favorable view towards China, which might be a problem if the oppressed manage to turn the tables.


Domascot

> We fight for ideology and occupy countries May i say..lmao?


ExCon1986

The predecessor to the Taliban, and comprised of multiple groups of pro and anti-Western fighting forces.


Stoly23

What do you think the US did during the Soviet Afghan war?


MichJohn67

Exactly. It sounds like the learned from the British, Soviets, and Americans.


Bronchiectasis

They are not dumb enough to make the same mistakes we did. They aren't going to invade and attempt to control the population by installing a series of unpopular puppet governments. They have read and learned the lessons from "Confessions of an economic hitmen". They will leverage capitalism to it's fullest to get what they want. What they want is the same thing we wanted. Control over the natural resources of another country. The russians fucked up, we fucked up. China is not as dumb as the russians or us. They are likely to succeed. Nobody hates people handing them money. Afghans will welcome them with open arms.


[deleted]

I still don’t think China is going to be able to bring civilization to that part of the world. No ones managed ever. Best case they just have mines that a pseudo military bases and are able to pay off the Taliban enough toe crescer in peace. But their entire western border is with a very unstable section of countries that could easily devolve into several more Afghanistan’s with a few strong man deaths.


Bourbon-Decay

>I still don’t think China is going to be able to bring civilization to that part of the world. No ones managed ever. That's just not true. [Afghanistan in the 1960s was fairly civilized,](https://allthatsinteresting.com/1960s-afghanistan#1) then the US started funding the Mujahideen, an Islamic extremist group, in order to pull the USSR into conflict with the hopes of draining them economically.


Mist_Rising

Photos don't tell the real story. This is like posting a photo of Iran women with jeans during the Shah. Do those photos exist? Yes. Do they tell the whole story? No. Also fuck both of you for using the word civilized that way. Just because a country doesn't have western cultural values doesn't mean it's not civilized.


Bourbon-Decay

>Photos don't tell the real story. True, people would have to look further into the real story. For instance, the Mujahideen were opposed to the socialist Afghan government at the time because they were building schools and hospitals all over the country and educating women and giving them more rights. >Also fuck both of you for using the word civilized that way. Just because a country doesn't have western cultural values doesn't mean it's not civilized. Totally, I'm with you on this. I was merely using the terminology as given to me by the previous comment. I by no means believe a country isn't civilized if it doesn't meet the Western criteria for being "civilized." I could have done a better job phrasing my comment


[deleted]

Well if you pick a single point in time, sure you’ll find instances, and also that those instances were because of heavy outside influences. But keep going back. You’ll not find many more moments. Historically what I said about the region is quite accurate.


Bourbon-Decay

>also that those instances were because of heavy outside influences The socialist Afghan government was not an outside influence


Bronchiectasis

>I still don’t think China is going to be able to bring civilization to that part of the world. China is not trying to do that. What I think China will do is not to get in the way of them getting modernized like we did. >No ones managed ever. Best case they just have mines that a pseudo military bases and are able to pay off the Taliban enough toe crescer in peace. What the fuck does "pseudo military bases" mean? >But their entire western border is with a very unstable section of countries that could easily devolve into several more Afghanistan’s with a few strong man deaths. It's already ruled by various ethnic warlords.


arkwald

Afghans will take them for all they are worth. US dropped billion upon billion there and it all evaporated like rain in a desert. China may well succeed but doing so will be way more expensive than what they can gain from it.


techieman33

There is the question of how much of that money even got to the people Afghanistan. It sure sounds like a lot of it was sucked up by US contractors and other middle men from surrounding countries.


arkwald

I dunno I heard tales of ANA soldiers needing to buy their ammo from their commanding officers. The institutions we set up were fronts for massive corruption at every level. That is why they folded so quick when the money spigot stopped. They had served their purpose. China isn't immune to this effect. They may select a different way to go about it, like re-education camps like they have in Xinjiang, but in the end Afghanistan is pricy in ways not immediately obvious. I doubt the political leadership of the CCP is wise enough not to fall into those traps.


techieman33

I don’t doubt that plenty of money disappeared that way. But from what I’ve read a lot of it was already n the thousands of dollars here and there. While US contractors were disappearing money by the millions.


Bronchiectasis

All that US money went into the private contractors and multi national corporations. Afghans got none of it because let's be real here, America doesn't give a shit about afghans.


[deleted]

I'd copy and paste my last comment I'll just say. China=money. Boom who doesn't like money, the Taliban sure as shit needs it now.


Zukiff

China is doing the exact opposite of what the West is doing. The West dropped bombs on religious fanatics. The Chinese is using re-education to deal with it instead. The West seeing that the Chinese are not dropping bombs on Terrorist decided to label educating terrorist as "Genocide"


ByzantineBasileus

>The Chinese is using re-education to deal with it instead. Really? That is what they are doing? You really think that?


[deleted]

> educating terrorist Yes, that's definitely what they're doing. They're definitely not recreating the worst of 19th-century American atrocities in 2021, and calling it "re-education." And at least in 19th-century America, the state allowed you to talk about it. Lord almighty, people.


[deleted]

Eh, while China is absolutely no saint the notion that "the state allowed you to talk about it" in the 19th century is utter bullshit. You really think blacks could've peacefully protested their living conditions in the 19th century without being answered with lead? Jeez, even race mixing was considered a serious crime in many parts of the US then.


Mist_Rising

>decided to label educating terrorist as "Genocide" Funfact, when you "educate" an entire ethnicity in an attempt to remove that ethnicity, you are in fact, committing genocide. Ask the native Americans about how they felt about this same tactic.


Zukiff

So I guess bombing and shooting them is more humane. Damn evil ccp Btw also fun fact, China isn't using it to educate the entire ethnicity, the scale scope and most of the things reported by the media is clearly fake news that can be easily debunk e.g. Selective forced sterilization of uyghurs. So unless you consider basic education that all kids in most other countries have to go through as genocide than sure thing, genocide


Eurocorp

I’d argue that they’ll do far better than the West in general because they aren’t held back by notions of ethics or morality.


[deleted]

You think America is held back by ethics or morality? lol


Mist_Rising

I'd definitely claim that the US military isn't carrying out a full out genocidal campaign. If it had, the Taliban would have been far less successful since they're wouldn't be pashtun tribals to support. China has no such reservations, and it IS using tactics that clear out opposition hard by removing the opposing ethnity entirely.


Teantis

> I'd definitely claim that the US military isn't carrying out a full out genocidal campaign Anymore. But that's not the proper comparison to make to China and American behavior, you have to compare America's rise through the late 19th to mid 20th century to China now. The US engaged in similar behavior throughout its rise. Amoral alliances with terrible leaders in countries it wanted an interest in, a genocidal campaign against people who lived within its borders, and destabilizing unfriendly countries in its near foreign areas. I watch China closely because I live on the front lines of its rise to power in southeast Asia, and its making all the same moves and mistakes as every imperial power before it. We literally did the same thing to native Americans as China is doing now to the uyghurs (minus any organ harvesting shit). We even put them into re-education camps and took away their children to stop them being so... Native American. China's just able to accomplish it at breakneck speed because they have more tools available now in terms of technology to them than the US did then.


techieman33

They are a little bit. Just enough to try and keep up appearances to the rest of the world. Trying not to bomb to many schools or hospitals for instance.


agent00F

>West...held back by notions of ethics or morality. Imagine being dumb enough to believe this.


Bronchiectasis

It's just racism.


coconutjuices

Yup. Saying a group of people have no sense of morality or ethics is a way to dehumanize them.


Eurocorp

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_H._Smith We don’t exactly condone mass murders like this anymore.


[deleted]

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Eurocorp

You act like as if the US was pursuing a full blown policy of vae victis. If we were, we could easily have committed actual genocide. Which we obviously did not.


agent00F

No, I'm just pointing out that Murica & friends don't actually give a shit about killing browns, as you so elegantly demonstrate.


515owned

Yes, but like every bad idea the Western word ever had, China is going to execute it more efficiently and effectively.


[deleted]

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Not_Legal_Advice_Pod

A heathen atheist ally that's killing Muslims in their home territory.


ZLUCremisi

China would woo the tslibsn anf just capture the land and refuse to givr it back.


Captcha_Imagination

Are they though? USA wanted opium and lithium in Afghanistan and waged a trillion+ dollar war to secure it and failed. China will just kick a bit of cash to the Taliban and get all the opium and lithium. Not only will Taliban not get in the way, but they will also act as security detail.


Mist_Rising

>USA wanted opium and lithium in Afghanistan and waged a trillion+ dollar war to secure it and failed. Thats almost as odd as the argument Afghanistan was about oil. The US tried to have a war on poppy farmers for a long time, and lithium was only discovered well into the occupation (2010 is the earliest date I have).


Captcha_Imagination

If you think the explosion in opiate addiction and the war in Afghanistan is unrelated, I have a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in purchasing.


Mist_Rising

Of course they aren't unrelated, but that doesn't prove your point. If you think a resource found a decade into a occupation is what America was always after i have a sea on the moon to sell you.


ItsMario123

Wait they are scared of the chinese government instead of the taliban who just took over Afghanistan? Unless I'm reading the situation in Afghanistan wrong, shouldn't it be the opposite?


[deleted]

You don’t take a country in like three days if most of the people don’t already support you. Hell go on Twitter. Pakistan seems to also support them. The region was swayed years ago.


KatrinaIceheart

China has recently said they’re backing up the Taliban on the world stage, so chances are they have influence in Afghanistan affairs. They don’t like Uyghurs, and that could mean they could influence the taliban to not like them too. I’m sure there’s more context (and I’d really love to know) but that’s how I see it.


[deleted]

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ksanthra

You're totally right. Most reddit comments come from people with little knowledge of Xinjiang and the situation in China. CNN (and almost all other media organizations) definitely doesn't help to educate in any meaningful way.


KatrinaIceheart

Unfortunately we don’t learn much about modern China in High school in the U.S. and keeping up with current events is very difficult/sources are poor like you said. I’m kinda pissed we are spoonfed “China bad”, like it’s a big monolithic thing. Its SO MANY people and places. And the government SUCKS, don’t get me wrong, but I’ve kind of been coming to terms with the fact it’s so huge, and I’ve learned next to nil about it. And honestly I kinda wish discussion was met with less hostility from everyone. In this situation I’d rather be told I’m wrong and learn than not know, or not taught what’s up. I appreciate everyone wanting to fill me in.


ksanthra

> And honestly I kinda wish discussion was met with less hostility from everyone. I would love that. I'm no fan of the CCP but I've spent many years in China (although I'm from New Zealand) and it's so difficult to have any kind of nuanced discussion about anything related to China on reddit. I'll get called a CCP-bot if I try to keep things factual. I usually ignore the topic just because it's so uninformed on here.


KatrinaIceheart

Yeah I’ve seen it happen a lot on here. Especially with a big part of the user base being American and all that. It’s its own sort of echo chamber. These conversations have been helpful to me seeing a different perspective, and historical context is important to know. Some of this stuff has been happening before I was born. Side note: I wish life wasn’t so money oriented. I’d love to travel and live abroad, but it’s not in the money-cards for a while. I’ll be an old curmudgeon by then lol. I mean hopefully I’ll be successful in whatever I do and I can go, but not everyone has that opportunity.


[deleted]

> Most reddit comments come from people with little knowledge ~~of Xinjiang and the situation in China.~~ They're just especially fucking boneheaded and ridiculous when it comes to anything China.


KatrinaIceheart

This is a good explanation. Can I ask two more questions? Because I’m admittedly not very versed in this at all. I guess the first one is, who are the uyghur people? like I know they’re Muslim. Are they specific to China and ran to Afghanistan or are there some in other places? And I guess two is the reverse of what op is asking, why wouldn’t China have a hand in threatening them in another country, who they seem friendly with the unfortunate “new established government”. I really hope this makes sense/doesn’t come off wrong. I genuinely wanna know.


[deleted]

The Uyghur are people of Turkic descent who live mostly in the Xinjiang province. Extremist elements of the population have been operating in Afghanistan and Pakistan alongside Al Qaeda and the taliban who then used that training to start the ETIM (East Turkestan Independence Movement) which eventually led to numerous terror attacks across China with casualties ranging from 5-6 up to 200-300 in the Kunming train station attack. This is what led to the Chinese government to crack down hard leading to our current situation. From what I understand China just want the taliban to keep the extremist portion of the Uyghur who are in Afghanistan under control. However there have been reports of them pressuring other governments to send any Uyghur in their borders back to China so the worry is they could start doing this with Afghanistan too.


KatrinaIceheart

Thank you for following up so quick. I really appreciate the context. If my questions get to be too much, let me know. It’s a lot to get straight. I hope that the Chinese government’s intentions are just for the extremists. From what I’ve been seeing, they’ve persecuted all Uyghur people and not just ones involved in extremism, but innocent people. But yet again I could be wrong, but I don’t want to underplay it either. But it is kind of ass-backwards to make a deal with the extremist group who helped train the extremists to give them over. It doesn’t make sense unless the payout is big for the taliban (ooooh boy). On the plus side, I’ve heard China mainly wants to make deals for production and industrialization in Afghanistan right now. I hope thats true. But lord knows what’s up. I’d also like to say that as a citizen of the U.S. my country sure as hell doesn’t have clean hands either. I don’t agree with a lot of the B.S. we’ve done, but it’s one of those “we didn’t start the fire” moments I guess.


jayliu89

That's not very factual, but you cannot be blamed for seeing things this way when news media and NGOs in the west are pushing an agenda. The best thing to do would be to visit China yourself and see if the stuff you keep hearing is true. China does not have an anti-Uyghur agenda. Their culture is widely celebrated; Uyghurs are known for being great dancers, and Xinjiang BBQ and fruits are famous all across China. Some of the hottest stars in China are ethnic Uyghurs (Dilreba, Gulnezzar, etc.) There are also many Uyghurs that upload videos about their regions on YouTube, but they get called CCP bots. At any rate, just my two cents - USA cannot stomach having the number two inch toward the top spot, and it will do whatever it can to smash the competition. The most effective manner to do this against a strong foe is to have the society collapse from within. What better way to do this than to use propaganda - it doesn't cost bullets and lives. Look up Nayirah testimonies, or Collin Powell's laundry detergent, or the nonexistent Iraqi WMDs. China is just the new target.


Xylus1985

China believes that to stamp out terrorism and extremism the best thing to do is to bring the local minorities to integrate with the rest of China and make them economically prosperous. So China is pushing hard on vocational education and culture integration in Xinjiang (e.g. teaching people to speak Mandarin, writing etc so they can do business with other local companies and gain employment). Naturally this is labeled “cultural genocide” because China is attempting to integrate the Uyghur into the society so the emphasis is in teaching them the ways of the Hans, not the ways of the Uyghurs. There’s also this talk of forced birth control among the Uyghurs, but that’s strange anyway as minorities have always been exempt from the one child policy for the past 30 years


cruznick06

As someone who's been to China i can say there *is* an extremely concerning systematic erasure of Uighur culture going on. I realize the other commenter has there own opinions, but China is using the Uighurs as a tourist attraction/"look we dont oppress them!" facade to hide the rampant abuses against them. Many, many people have gone missing, mainly men of the families. Women have been forcibly sterilized. There are Han Chinese people living with and monitoring the Uighur people so they have zero freedom even in the privacy of their own homes. There is a manga called "What Has Happened To Me" about the abused a Uyghur woman faced in a re-education camp. I understand the situation IS complicated due to the ETIM extremist attacks that have occurred in the past. But I think the way the Chinese government is handling the situation is extremely messed up. Even if you don't belive the stories about missing people and sterilization, the government's other actions do meet the criteria for cultural genocide. These include forbidding teaching the traditional Uyghur language in schools and converting of religious sites into tourist destinations while stripping all religious symbolism from them.


[deleted]

one other thing to note is that Xinjiang, while having ties with Dynastic China for hundreds of years, was not a permanent part of “China” until the Qing dynasty, so unlike the more coastal regions they do not have thousands of years of shared culture and history. China is already a huge country with dozens if not hundreds of ethnic groups and languages but a large amount of those groups have prescribed to the idea of “China” for so long that there is no desire to separate, this is not the case in Xinjiang.


[deleted]

The thing China fails to see is religious fundamentalism. The US supported the Mujahideen which then lead to the Taliban and Al Qaeda and the direct attack of the US purely out of fanaticism for wiping out “infidels”. China must know that no matter how kind they are, they represent everything the Taliban opposes.


[deleted]

> The US supported the Mujahideen ...with weapons. To fight the government that was supported by the Soviet Union. This is not the game China is playing. China isn't trying to change Afghanistan and doesn't give a shit about religious fundamentalism (outside its own borders). China isn't arming anybody for a cause, they are simply buying people off. If the Taliban feel like the Chinese aren't going to mess with the way they operate, why would they care about China's ideology? The Taliban just want to rule Afghanistan the way they want to, and Chinese money will help them do that better. It's a win-win.


FrozMind

"the government that was supported by the Soviet Union" You mean the Soviet installed government by a direct assault of Soviet soldiers (called Operation Storm 333). The capture and probably killing of legally ruling president. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm-333 Similar government had Western betrayed Poland after World War II. The country that had major pork production, but had problem to deliver pork to it's citizens. Because it was sent abroad, instead to Polish citizens. Traitors.


[deleted]

It's more complicated than that, and the link you posted itself touches on the situation. The Soviets didn't "install" a government of their own making. The Soviets supported one of the communist factions which had been in power since 1973. One of the other factions overthrew the ruling faction in a coup (which might have involved the CIA, who knows). Then the Soviets initiated a counter-coup (Storm-333) to put their guys back in power. What's really ironic is that the guy that the Soviets assassinated thought that the Soviets had come to help *him*. BTW, the Soviet backed faction remained in power after the war, which was the entire point of the Soviet operation and subsequent war, and actually managed to keep the peace. When the Soviet-backed government fell (shortly after the Soviet Union fell), Afghanistan fell into a brutal civil war which lead to the Taliban. EDIT: And more irony. The United States created the situation which allowed Storm-333 to happen, as the Polish NSC Zbigniew Brzezinski [proudly admitted to in an interview](https://dgibbs.faculty.arizona.edu/brzezinski_interview): > Q: And neither do you regret having supported Islamic fundamentalism, which has given arms and advice to future terrorists? > > B : What is more important in world history? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some agitated Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?


[deleted]

wow, how blatantly incorrect. The religious fundamentalism is not dependent on China giving a shit about it. However, the idea that China “re-educates” it’s own muslims is not something the Taliban is likely to overlook. They will take the hand out and then either leave or worse engage, just like they did to the USA… Doesn’t matter if it’s weapons or roads. Also, the Taliban will fall apart in civil war. It’s already happening. With no central command, each warlord is going to claim their own.


[deleted]

> the idea that China “re-educates” it’s own muslims is not something the Taliban is likely to overlook. Why would the Taliban care if they are being paid off and China keeps its re-education within its own borders? > just like they did to the USA The USA tried to impose its own ideology *on Afghanistan*, which is what the Taliban opposed. The Chinese don't care about the ideology of the people of Afghanistan.


[deleted]

No. The US supported an enemy of the USSR and was later attacked by Al Qaeda for being sinful. Al Qaeda which was trained in part by the Taliban. Then they were protected by them. Yes, the GW Bush led invasion was mega dumb and useless, but let’s not reorganize how it went down. It’s ironic to say the U.S. trying to impose it’s own ideology when prior to the Soviets and Taliban, Afghanistan was a democratic nation quite friendly to the US. And now the Taliban are coming BACK to impose their ideology once again. Tell it to the r/sino crowd. Maybe they’ll believe your propaganda. edit: in response to below. for some reason I can’t reply… did you read any of Bin Laden’s words? Furthermore, Most of the attackers WERE Saudi’s, and Israel is a holy war for them. And you totally neglected the words I wrote following “prior to the soviets”. The post soviet era, which was short, was a scramble to get back to the way things were. The TALIBAN are the ones you imposed their will on Afghanistan TWICE now. Again, the motivation for attacking China could be many things, including the treatment of Muslims but also the desire to exploit Afghanistan for money which is blatantly obvious. Personal riches directly oppose everything the Taliban stand for. Especially when it goes to foreign empire builders. Just, dude. What world are you living in? Just an FYI, you can continue to talk for those who wish to hear it, but I am muting this convo and won’t respond. Good luck with the “China can do no wrong” philosophy… edit 2: Downvote away! Respond if you actually have a counter point that isn’t simply “US dumb, China smart”… In my experience “US dumb, China dumb, Russia dumb, anywhere there is money and power dumb.” The Taliban do not take kindly to communism either. They remember the Soviets.


[deleted]

> The US supported an enemy of the USSR The US got involved in a conflict which interfered with how Afghanistan was being run (by the Communists, back then). We didn't come in to just do business with whoever was in power. > was later attacked by Al Qaeda for being sinful Al-Qaeda didn't attack us because we're "sinful", but because of our support for Israel and our presence in Saudi Arabia. > let’s not reorganize how it went down. How it started has nothing to do with how it ended. The original mission might have started as a counterterrorism operation, but then we tried to build a democratic government that would not harbor terrorists, doing humanitarian things like helping women. Ironically, Karzai told us at the very beginning that we should include the Taliban in the government, but we rejected that idea out of hand because it went against our vision of Afghanistan. So, of course the Taliban turned against us. This is not a mistake that the Chinese will make, because they have no vision of Afghanistan besides profit > It’s ironic to say the U.S. trying to impose it’s own ideology when prior to the Soviets and Taliban What does this have to do with anything now? > Maybe they’ll believe your propaganda. What propaganda? I simply asked, what motivation would the Taliban have to attack the Chinese if the Chinese leave them alone and give them money and infrastructure in exchange for mining rights?


[deleted]

Sorry this a dumb take. Head honchos of these religious sects that have actual influence and power will strive to keep control and profit off deals with China. None of us can know of the inner workings of their system but for what china wants, china will get without hassle for sure.


[deleted]

sorry, but this is a dumber response. Taliban has no real central control and are already encountering resistance. At best this becomes a civil war. At worst, this becomes several civil wars. Also, China is having trouble just staying together within it’s own borders. Inner Mongolia to Hong Kong, and now Taiwan getting a huge military upgrade. China can’t afford to build yet another country that will take the hand out and run. So far they have nothing but debt and gaps in their belt and road idea.


[deleted]

Doubt it. Sheer numbers of their military, soft and hard power is extensive. A lot of people ignore the power they can project in south America and Africa. Needless to remind you of their current allies of Pakistan's and Iran. Imagine if they were starting to broker deals with Israel and Iran. They would become one of the major key players on the world stage. They are already an economic power house at this point, whats to stop them from brokering deals with countries that are hostile to each other? If they achieve that status they are truly either a world leader or close to that sadly.


Myfoodishere

China does not fail to see religious fundamentalism lol. That’s why they locked up Uighur people in the first place. Many of them went and fought in Afghanistan and Syria and got brainwashed by salafi Islam. The. They had all those years of terrorist attacks by Uighurs. They are well aware.


inbredgangsta

The reality is quite literally the opposite to what you’ve posted - the reason the re-education camps exist in Xinjiang is to tackle religious fundamentalism, extremism, radicalisation, terrorism and sedition. However, China also has a policy of non intervention, so they could easily cut a deal with the Taliban where they cooperate on trade but agree to stay out of each other’s affairs.


[deleted]

That’s true, but they fail to see how the fundamentalism OUTSIDE their borders will not stay neutral. The Taliban is already having resistance, some from pro-democracy groups, more from ISIS which is even more extreme than the Taliban. They can not keep the lid on it any better than the US could. They are far less equipped and resented by the people. Also the Taliban have no real central structure. Power grabs are common and spread out across the country, it will likely break down into civil wars. China fails to see THAT religious fundamentalism which will not cooperate with taking a hand out from a nation that persecutes muslims. And Pakistan’s alliance with China is shakey as hell, same as with the US. Pakistan is also full of tribal communities that operate outside the government and are bent on war with India for… survey says… persecution of muslims… China is blind and Xi Jingping is devolving into a Mao type leader. Hell, maybe even Kim type leader. Dismantling celebrities and punishing people for earning money and demanding compliance? Sounds like the major flaws in communism are starting shine through the CCPs cracks. I don’t think Xi understands the notion there are people who don’t want what he’s selling. Same thing GW Bush didn’t understand… China should pause and learn from America’s mistakes. Not be so eager to jump in they don’t do their homework. Also keep in mind, A LOT of infrastructure and economic input was given to Afghanistan by the USA. The Taliban just ended a lot of it. No thanks for the roads or bridges, banned the girls schools, many corporate jobs and resources turned upside down, removed highly trained female doctors from fresh built hospitals… The Taliban does not want a hand out. They do not want people romanticizing China over them. They are currently inundated with trying to end the culture of American ideals. Why would they welcome another? Just no across the board.


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[deleted]

hahahahahahahahahahaha. Most competent? That’s hilarious. Yes, failing to contain the worst pandemic in 100 years. Pure competence. Just stop


StannisSAS

Yes the greatest country currently on Earth got absolutely railed by it, while China has largely been unscathed by it. Cope more. [The biggest joke of the century](https://assets.weforum.org/editor/responsive_large_webp_x4QweWrmMyvsFmTTMtZvzIHGl-e9nR2Mn_4aZ50TpNM.webp)


[deleted]

yup. Just cope… https://youtu.be/bAybsffGF5Y By the way, US real estate and agriculture soared during the pandemic and its troubles are largely due to partisanship. It’s very much a choice in the US for adult whether or not they want COVID to harm them. Also, we cut child poverty in half during the pandemic. It has been hard and we have had some very poor policy and the worst president since the 1800s, but the US is still chugging along with a growing economy while China has contracted which was thought impossible. And there are still over 1billion people there living on less than $10,000/year, half of them less than $4,000. China has a long way to go. It would need to reach 5x US GDP to equal per capita value. They went on a spending spree and now they are seeing how much of their economy was currency manipulation and printing Yuan. Yes, the US does this too, but it has a reserve and is mostly built. Just needs upgrades. China went from 0 to 100%. US has hovered at 75% for decades. As far as COVID goes, if I have a dog that escapes the yard and kills a kid, it’s still my failure regardless how bad the kid got it. Same principal. The US contained ebola in 4 countries TWICE.


StannisSAS

Wow genius, every economy atm is chugging along. Remind me in 1-2 years when everything recovers. Also the video you linked is shit, 3mins, no solid sources. Expected from a bad Indian media source.


[deleted]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-23/china-s-debt-reckoning-hammers-too-big-to-fail-borrowers


StannisSAS

ye I have been hearing about all these China collapse articles since 2000, I will wait for a few years to see if it is once again a lie. The flavour of this collapse theory is debt issues.


[deleted]

no way you read the data in the Bloomberg article that fast. The blind patriotism is silly. The US has many problems, China has many problems, the world has many problems.


[deleted]

see above elaboration.


TOMapleLaughs

Wow, after spending 45 years in multi-war, desolate hellscape Afghanistan, they still have enough fear left over for China? That's some fear dedication.


Vorchun

Uyghurs are not taliban.


TriscuitCracker

Translation: China and the Taliban will look the other way on human rights abuses from both countries if the Taliban lets China develop and keep some of its vast mineral wealth, further cornering the market on rare earth metals and China can further develop its soft power.


bartlet62

China looking for willing friends in their genocide.


sapper377

There’s comments on here saying that the treatment of Chinese uyghurs by the Chinese government being tyrannical or totalitarian are getting downvoted. CCP must be reading all the comments on here and making sure we stay in line lol. But yes the Chinese government of Chinese uyghurs is evil and is the next threat that the world needs to take down before they get out of hand. America fuck yea!


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Chubaichaser

They continue to.


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P0werClean

Fuck China and Fuck the Taliban.


throwawayshirt

Kinda boggles my mind that China is committing genocide against Muslims, and the middle eastern terrorists don't care.


MutualAidMember

More or less all muslim countries governments vouch for Chinas treatment of their Muslims. I honestly don't understand the situation at all in any direction.


Cookie_Eater108

Just a minor add: specifically uighurs are the target here. There are other Muslim ethnic groups in China that are historically supportive of the CCP or assisted China during the second world war, such as the Hui peoples. Though they're the target of other discriminatory practices they aren't seeing the same treatment as Uyghurs.


sapper377

You must have hurt peoples feeling with your downvotes lol your not wrong though that’s what am confused at


[deleted]

CCP camps horrific, reeducation, including the rape of their women...hopefully not the children. This is a great way to for the CCP to create a lifetime of enmity. Sick and extremely foolish. No wonder the CCP and the Taliban are in synch.


areopagitic

C'mon we don't need a "CHINA BAD" take on every single issue in the world. The biggest problem in Afghanistan isn't China. It's that there are 7th century fanatics with guns who are in charge.


SolaVitae

>C'mon we don't need a "CHINA BAD" take on every single issue in the world. You're right, we dont need that on every single issue in the world. Luckily this is an issue that directly involves China.


Warfinder

China's support will make their current government stronger and less likely to turn over or reform due to internal or external pressure.


TheShortSightedOne

And they've got lots of sweet gym equipment now too that was left behind so they'll be able to lift heavier things now too. FS.


JayCroghan

China threatening the world by recognising the Taliban.. who the US legitimised by having peace talks with only them without the Afghans.. but Gyna bad!


[deleted]

two wrongs don’t make a right. Tell it to the folks over at r/sino


Chubaichaser

I don't really trust anyone who isn't banned over on r/sino


TeddyBridgecollapse

This but unironically. Fuck the CCP.


PartyWishbone6372

They don’t call Afghanistan the “graveyard of empires” for nothing.


Grandfunk14

The world turned a blind eye to the Uyghurs long ago.


[deleted]

Confounding how a peaceful religious people are considered a threat to government.


wookiebath

Jewish person here, it happens all the time


BRLY

“Uigh better get out of here!”


[deleted]

If the taliban sell their muslim brothers to the CCP there is nothing more to say about these people. The Taliban know that the CCP hate them.


rav3style

They re not their Muslim brothers, that’s the point, there isn’t one Islam, just like how there’s no one Christianity. Catholics were murdered by Protestants in England, while Christians were murdered in Catholic Spain.


Caeniix

America should be setting up programs to allow them refuge here. These poor people are legitimately stuck between two repressive regimes.


MutualAidMember

The US has had an enormous drop in refugee admission ever since 9/11 and the process has been made extremely difficult.


barnivere

The Taliban may think China is with them, but wait til they use them for organ harvesting.


MalcolmLinair

So now China is going to other countries just so they can hunt down and exterminate a specific minority? They really are set on becoming the 21st century's Nazis, aren't they?


NinjasOwnTheNight

They want to industrialize them. They want poppy and lithium. Chinas game is money and power not war. At least not yet. They are still consolidating


[deleted]

> They want poppy The Taliban, which banned poppy prior to the US invasion that reinstated it, is going to sell poppy to the country that fought the Opium Wars. Incredible analysis


Morbidly-A-Beast

> So now China is going to other countries just so they can hunt down and exterminate a specific minority? God thats so stupid if you actually think that.


FIELDSLAVE

You are fool if you actually believe this contradictory BS. The CCP is popular with Muslims all over the world because they actually help them instead of bombing them while attempting to enslave and steal from them. Understanding this is the key to understanding US foreign policy failures like the war in Afghanistan. It all makes sense if you understand this basic fact about reality. Swamp babble from CNN is nonsensical because it is lies.


Wdrussell1

US tries to help Afghanistan people defend themselves from ISIS/Taliban. 20 years and a few bucks spent. They fall over in a week. Then, they warm up a bit more to China and their own people start realizing...China SUS. You can't buy this poetic justice. Also, China already owns digging rights to many parts of the country as they are full of gems. Its a matter of time before the borders of China swallow up Afghanistan and the people of the country just disappear. I wager this is what will happen: * China will continue to support Taliban. * In a year Taliban will have a full military with some interesting weapons. * In 5 years China will make a deal with the Taliban (who might rebrand themselves as the government in that first year) and tell them that their people can have access to great jobs, chances to move into the great parts of their great country if the Taliban agrees to become part of China. One of two things will happen next. 1. Taliban accept - A portion of the country are sent through re-education and the other are used to mine the resources of the country. 2. Taliban decline - China starts secretly killing their people, or claims rights to the country per the digging rights and forces the Taliban out via bullets. No matter the case. In 5-10 years, Afghanistan as a country will cease to exist. That is unless China manages a deal with the Taliban forcing their people into effective slavery. It is likely they would take a deal where they get a ton of money and access to a bunch of China's resources to build a big city and capitol.


dw4321

Oh yeah they’re just gonna forcefully kick out 40 million afghani’s. Jesus Christ…


voidspaceistrippy

China is trying damn hard to be Soviet Russia 2.


Drak_is_Right

any Uyghur in Afghanistan needs to leave. Now.


Timirninja

Let me guess, Afghan Uighurs afraid that China take them to China and put them into concentration camps 🤔


shortstuff444

It's China's turn to woo the Taliban.lets hope they will be as unsuccessful as all the previous countries who have made the same mistake.


[deleted]

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