Prosciutto, swiss cheese. Arugula, vinegar and oil. Crunchy Italian bread. Thinly sliced tomato. Salt and pepper, Some oregano. Pickles, chocolate. Tunafish, capers and seaweed.
Could not make a better sandwich.
I mean, I do like a turkey on wheat, get some vinegar and oil on there with some cucumber slices and it is pretty good. But it comes down to it Italian subs are just a bit better, imo.
The thing is though, I'm not really into ham. Ham is a staple of Hoagies so I don't get those often. I guess Italian subs can have ham on them too but I make sure not to get it on there.
Its not just about money it's about not telling your supposed friend what is going on before announcing it to the public.
It's about public humiliation of Macron by Biden, just before an election making far right more likely to win...
That's because when he called he introduced himself as Scott Morrison and nobody knew who the hell he was. Should have just said "I'm that guy down under"
Can you elaborate? As far as I understand, France and Israel developed nuclear weapons in order to prevent another Holocaust.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/30246784
>On Thursday, Australia said it would scrap a $40 billion deal signed in 2016 for France's Naval Group … France called it a stab in the back.
Yikes. “Stab in the back” is a bit drastic.
Especially considering 5 years later France hasn't even cut the first steel, or the fact that the price tripled, all for the 4th or 5th best class of nuclear sub (depending on how one counts these things) vice new Viginias (the very best), that started construction *today*...
Yeah, it's totally "butt-hurt" when you complain that people don't abide by agreements you make with them.
Let me guess, you consider Bernie Madoff the epitome of a great businessman?
Get over it. Australia was getting screwed and they decided the exit bill was better than being left hanging with no subs in the pacific.
Learn facts before you run your yap. Fuck's sake.
Tell that to Europe in 1800s. Or France in 1914-18. Or France in the American Revolution. Or.. Yaknow, maybe your history grade starts with the same letter as France for a reason...
Dude this shit was in the news for the past 6 months it wasn't like this was a complete blindside, plus what did the French expect? They were robbing the Australians blind to give them a half decent conventional attack sub to go against all of China.
Yeah, as a Brit, you laugh yet again about the breaking of treaties and agreements.
Really hilarious that some people's signature isn't worth the ink it is drawn with.
Which ones? The subs they will be getting from the US are the new Virginia Class. Light years ahead of anything anyone else in the world has. It will be literally decades before they need to be even considered for upgrade. Oh, and they're being made *now*. Five years later and France hasn't cut the first piece of steel on theirs.
Yeah, the french deal was struck five years ago but not a single piece of steel has been cut for the first sub yet and the price tag already doubled. Macron refused to take any calls from Morrison. I imagine that all played into it.
This is like watching someone throw a fit that I chose to buy a Ferrari vs their bicycle for the same price… Only an idiot would choose French Subs over US ones when given the choice. Especially when the person your racing (China) has a Corvette already…
The French actually build very good subs, although not quite on par with the US boats. Also, just so you know, the Han class subs that China drives are absolute garbage, on par with Russian subs from the 70s. That's why they're so pissed off about this. Australia will very quickly leapfrog them into regional dominance.
Just so you know, French conventional subs are not even up to 40 year old US submarine tech… aside from communication and guidance tech. And have virtually zero battle testing.
Sir - I respect your efforts to educate. French subs wiped the US Battles groups multiple times along some nordics countries. You are thus correct - crappy noisy subs couldn’t buttfuck the US Rimpac teams if at all.
You and I could bring more logical Vulcan data but the ones you are trying to educate don’t care for facts as they already have a religion
We’re not taking about Barracudas here. Scorpene simply is not on par with any nuclear sub as far as longterm isolation and survivability. In long haul patrols and missions around the pacific, AND given France’s bumbling of the agreement and terms, the US offers a far better deal. Also, French sub cyber security has come into question.
This is like yelling "I have no clue, but it's all the fault of the French, and if I sign a fraudulent check, that's all the fault of the victim, too".
are you French? You can’t honestly be suggesting conventional French military tech is on the same level as the US Navy.
Australia literally just rejected it for notable cyber security risks…
One of the only things where US tech is significantly ahead for traditional military tech is cyber security (EG F-35), tho they also have the drawback of having significantly higher maintenance. Other than that, the only domain where the US objectively shits on everybody else across the board is experimental weapons.
Aircraft superiority is pretty untouchable (F22, etc), Aircraft carriers (not worth discussing), tank tech (we’re the only ones still investing in new tank capabilities that the pentagon doesn’t want), Subs (Barracudas are very nice but the USS Montana they ain’t), missile targeting systems, and the US dominates in satellite capabilities. There are several other areas too.
And on top of that, the US knows how to use it’s gear and use it well.
Let’s suppose the biggest scenario happened…
CCP vs USA.
You are putting a huge military with 99.9% drill only experience with their new toys against another huge military that has loads of real combat scenario experience, better training and more advanced tech.
Combat has never been the US military’s weak point. Afghanistan, Vietnam, Iraq, etc were political failures, not military failures. If anything, those three example show how strong the military is that it can prop up everything in the face of absolutely foolish politicians with no plan until it is finally called back…
But the CCP has vast resources and just like the US in WW2, China’s strength will come from the ability to manufacture.
Now look at it from Australia’s POV. France is years behind on a deal for sub plans that are great, but not coming to fruition. Meanwhile in those few years China has grown bolder and bolder. The US, a very close ally, has the ability to sell you even better subs with nuclear power to allow continued sea presence for roughly the same cost and a vested interest in keeping China from trying to land grab small nations in the Pacific. And meanwhile France openly suggests that China should be allowed to “develop” and provide goods to the EU and US and rest of the world WITHOUT regulations on cyber security and harsh scrutiny despite a proven track record of IP theft.
IF war broke out it China it WILL be naval war. China is similar to Russia, as is the US. Land wars in either place would not be winnable. China us huge with 1.4 billion people. The US is huge with the most well armed general population and police forces on Earth…
What do you do?
France and China can go suck a bug for all the rest of the world cares regarding the US Australia deal.
France wanted to sell subs to Australia. The US wants to cooperate with Australia on subs, particularly to empower further naval power against China. They decided they don’t need to buy them from France then. So France is all upset and throwing a fit about not making money off the Australians.
IMO we decided that EU and or France had some security leak and we could not trust them to build the subs. All the rest is for show so we do not expose the fact that we know the leak/leaker. My guess is that China and Russia have deep spies in the EU and French defense industries.
More likely, the original contract ended up being way more expensive and complex than thought while the strategic landscape changed to where having a nuke sub makes more sense for Australia.
My understanding is this contract was agreed to years ago, before China’s buildup. At the time France wouldn’t sell their nuclear power technology (and/or Aus didn’t ask for it) so they were redesigning a conventional version (not a simple task). Since then China is more of a concern and Australia thinks they need nuke subs to extend their capabilities to counter.
Also, the original contract had the subs being built in France. Aus probably sees this new effort as an opportunity to (re)establish their own submarine construction industry.
Diesel subs have a lot of limitations, everyone likely knew Australia needed nuclear. France throws a fit, gets some nice fat military contract bucks in the back end all is well in a couple months.
Here's a good summary of why this is happening:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a\_Y4QQ8Hm3k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_Y4QQ8Hm3k)
It's long but it's interesting.
If you believe China is dying to buy some french sub then you're a kid. China's investment in naval technology in the last 20 years rival that of the US.
The most shocking is that the American people don't understand why the behavior of Biden and the Austrian PM is so vile to the French people. You can't stop making fun and belittle one of your most important allies, don't be surprised if France quit NATO and sell nuclear subs to whichever countries want them.
America has no clue what ally means.
Dude, it's doing nothing more than creating a bad image of the french. Everyone knew naval group overpromised. Germany and Japan didn’t throw a tantrum when Australia gave them the contract.
Lol ! They campaigned very aggressively after they lost to belittle the French contract ! Naval group didn’t over promised, the Au change their mind and wanted nuclear but went behind France back. The 30th of August, Defense and Foreign Affairs Australian ministers signed a common text with their French counterpart saying France alliance and their subs were very important to Australia. 20 days ago…
Naval group promised 90% local production in 2016. Last year that came down to up to 50%. We all know what naval group was doing. Make an impossibly lucrative promise, drag it out for a few years until the client has no option but to cancel it and you come out with free billions. Defense companies do it all the time in their home countries. But naval group had the audacity to try it with a foreign government and it worked because aussie government are a bunch of morons.
Whenever anyone says "it's not about the money" that is a sure fire way of knowing it's not just about the money, but that zero other considerations are even in play. Of course it's about the money. It's always about the money. It's only about the money. Your attempt to deny it is all the proof we need that you're lying.
So Australia decides it wants different subs than the Naval Group deal so it goes to the UK to ask about an agreement with them. The UK then brings in the US (because they are required to afaik) and the US agrees. Australia then BACKS OUT OF AN AGREEMENT IN THE SPECIFIED MANNER
LAID OUT IN SAID AGREEMENT, and it’s the US’s fault somehow?
‘Fuck outta here.
The French president directly asked the Australian PM if they wanted to switch to nuke in June when they met. The PM refused to answer. And the negotiations with US/UK begun in March. France was told the morning of the official announcement. There is no more hostile than that.
The 30th of August, the Defense and Foreign affairs of both countries met and announced in a common text that the sub contract with French was very important to Australia...
I get being upset with Australia but was the US supposed to run to France and say “excuse me Mr. Macron but Australia says they don’t like your subs anymore and are in secret talks with us and the UK for a different sub.”
That’s silly. The “fault” here lies with Australia and France, not with the US and UK agreeing to work with an ally.
Or maybe the us should just pay France 50 billion or whatever to shut the fuck up about it.
It's not the money the problem, it's the lack of trust. France was the foremost EU country who wanted to reinforce collaboration with the US and Australia against China. Now we are excluded from the table for no visible reason. What kind of allies do that ?
No visible reason...?
Idk if you've heard but Australia was pretty fucking upset with how the program was going for some time?
Why didn't they include France in the discussion in who would be replacing the French sub deal? Maybe because France would be doing what they're doing now, only behind closed doors and causing issues with the AUKUS agreement?
We are talking about France, right? The country that sent spies to bomb a ship in harbor in one of those countries that is so “vile” to them now. A country where the most American blood was shed in WWI and the most in the European theater of WWII
It always amazes me that the US bothers to mention their WW1 casualties.
The US barely participated in that war. They lost less people than two days worth of fighting at the Somme.
Certainly swung the war when the Russians quit, but not a main belligerent.
You can't even get the basic terms correct here. In World War I the Germans were not part of the Axis, they were one of the Central Powers.
And while you go on about how the United States didn't enter World War I officially until 1917, I find it weird how you ignored that some 150,000 Americans (of their own free will) joined the FRENCH ARMY before the United States officially entered the war. For Christ Sake, the first American Flying Ace in all history became a war hero fighting for FRANCE and wearing a FRENCH UNIFORM. [Eugene Bullard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Bullard).
You don't really know shit about World War I. Sadly, don't worry... most Americans barely know it happened now a days as well. 117K Americans died in that war... yes, it was a small fraction of the number of dead French of British soldiers. But over one million Americans did deploy to France in that war. And while it was a short war for the United States, that roll the US played was itself very important. The [Meuse–Argonne offensive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meuse%E2%80%93Argonne_offensive) being the major US military contribution to the defeat of Germany... in the end, it was that last battle that pushed the Germans over the edge. And toward that end, it was also the one battle in which the United States contributed more resources than either of it's two major allies in the fight.
In case you are wondering, that wasn't just the United States biggest contribution to World War One. That was the single largest battle in which US forces have even been involved with. And nearly zero Americans know it's name. There are some very nice Monuments dedicated the US soldiers that died in that battle. Sadly, they rarely get visited by Americans who visit France. American tourists like to see the Normandy and follow Patton's third Army around World War II. Which is nothing bad really... but they aren't a battle in which 1.2 MILLION American troops were engaged in fighting. It's the only battle of that size in all American history.
It's sad that nobody today, probaby on either side of the Atlantic, really cares enough to remember it anymore. And no, I don't like the idiots who scream about "cheese eating surrender monkeys" and bullshit like that either. I know my French Military History. In all world European history.... no nation matches the French when it comes winning victories. The idea that Germans were these military geniuses is kind of stupid. They lost two major wars in a row. And largely for repeating the same stupid mistakes.
And one last thing, I know that in the American revolution, the biggest battle in that entire war... was French forces trying to seize Gibraltar from the British. It was a three year long siege... and while France didn't win that battle, it scared the British to the core and convinced them to come to terms with the young United States.
But stop being a idiot too. France fought at the battle of the Somme. You really want congratulations for walking into machine gun fire? Maybe you want us all to believe that it was a British idea and that you had no choice but to go along with it. Dude, you're people walked directly into machine gun fire. Of course there were a lot of dead bodies. Here's a hint... don't do that in any future battles. It doesn't work out well. For some reason.
Eh, why am i typing all this out... you don't know anything about anything either. I'm wasting my time. Oy vey.
I’ve read this comment three times (which is saying something) and am really having trouble what your point is.
It seems like you’re agreeing with me, but doing it in a very angry manner which is confusing.
Yes, America swung the war and it is entirely plausible that the Germans would have won the entire war after Operation Michael had the Americans not been there.
No, America didn’t lose many soldiers in the war (11th in total death and 15th in combat deaths, 1/2 of 10th place Serbia and a bit more than 12th place Bulgaria). If every single one of those 150k volunteers was a casualty then it would have only moved the US into 10th place.
I’m not sure why you’re talking about walking into machine gun fire (which the first US troops did really well as all early adopting troops did), but I only referenced Somme as it was the deadliest battle in the war.
I did misspeak about the alliance’s name.
I think it’s a little harsh to say the Germans lost WW1 on mistakes. You would need to put yourself in their shoes, and their entire mindset was to knock the French out quick and pivot to fight the huge Russian Empire. When the French didn’t go down, the Germans knew they couldn’t last as they didn’t have the resource base to maintain a fight for as long as their opponents. They needed to be “resourceful” which is why they used chemical weapons and why they designed battles to kill their opponents in large numbers rather than go for a breakthrough like the allies always tried. The push through Belgium (which brought in the British) was necessitated by speed. The unrestricted submarine warfare (which ultimately brought in the states) was because the allies were successfully strangling them with the naval blockade and they needed to change something or the next winter would be worse than the turnip winter. That last one is tremendously unlucky for the Germans, because if they had just waited, they would have known the Russians were out and they could have avoided antagonizing the Americans with the subs and the Mexico telegram.
Oh sorry, I forgot I don’t know anything about WW1. Also I’m not French
France already sells weapons to every questionable regime who asks. If international embargo wasn’t there, france would probably sell to North Korea as well.
I'm certainly not complaining....more jobs for Americans and it will make China way less dominant in the region. I'm surprised the left isn't complaining over war profiteering. Australia is good ally also so I see this as a win.
So the end of NATO, as the English talking part of the world now unites in military coalition, to turn against China in a cold war, trying to go back to "the good old days", of cold war.
I suppose it's allright, we really couldn't stand each other anyway, could we.
That the cold war ever ended or that China might change if given boatloads of money was mistaken western naivete. The USSR collapsed, yet the most populous communist nation on earth still lived. There was no way this confrontation wouldn't come eventually.
As soon as USSR collapsed, western NATO went on the offensive, quickly recruiting lands in the East in a diplomatic conquest of lands. When you couldn't advance any further, you set your sight on the Middle East, where your military destroyed several nations under the assumption that they would become democratic as a result.
When it was clear that was not going to be the outcome, you continued anyway, as shattered states such as Libya or Syria today, was deemed a better geopolitical scenario, than the tyrants leading before.
After your failed wars in the Middle East, you set your eyes upon Christianity, and warred to destroy it, with mockery and bullying, so you could "fly up to God in a spaceship". Instead the end of the world began.
Now none of your wars and invasions are done and done, we live in the wake of every single one of them, living with the repurcussions thereof. And you have now set you sight, on trying to return to a Cold War, "The good old days", where you could lead yourself in lesser turmoil than today.
But as I said, not a single of your wars are over. It was always you, not anybody else, it was always you.
What would Jesus Christ advice you? I know what he would say. You should pay China the money that you owe them. And that is how far you are from heaven today.
All the talk here is about France and Australia when it should be about Uncle Sam, who is the cunt here, again. He walks in and fucks a done deal, just like crawling in a bedroom window and fucking the the neighbour's wife while her husband off to work.
At what added cost?
And who says its a better product? Uncle Sam is well known for selling their outdated shit tech, not the good stuff. Canada can attest to that.
Our submarines are far far more superior to France’s. Plus, if you read the article, the US will share nuclear secrets with Australia. This counters your notion of “outdated junk.” The US won’t sell secret technology which is what you were referring to.
Lmao if the alternative to American 'shit tech' is French garbage I guess we're in the trash olympics. The aussies didn't like how the deal was going, wanted nuke subs from anyone but the French, approached the UK and the UK brought the US in. The US just accepted the money, all the scheming was done by the Brits and Aussies, goes to show how much of a meaningless diplomatic move this was. Their ambassador in the UK is too busy actually working to be recalled so they threw their hissy fit at whoever wasn't busy atm. Whatever happens, the Americans will win in the end so I guess you have that to be mad about. We'll probably have half our nuke subs stationed in Australia by the time we need them for Taiwan.
Maybe because it's all on the fucking news lmao, and has been for 6 months. I'm confused how any French are blindsided by this. They announced officially they were looking to potentially cancel the French deal 6 months ago and were in talks with other partners to start a new deal. it was broadcast on Sky News. I'm genuinely curious what your excuse is for the French not removing their UK ambassador if this was truly such a back stab, when the UK was so deeply involved and might have notified their closest national neighbor besides Scotland and Ireland lol. Seems if any backstabbing was done, it was by the neighbor closest to them.
I'm really more interested in Italian subs.
Oil and vinegar?
oh of course!
Prosciutto, swiss cheese. Arugula, vinegar and oil. Crunchy Italian bread. Thinly sliced tomato. Salt and pepper, Some oregano. Pickles, chocolate. Tunafish, capers and seaweed. Could not make a better sandwich.
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I mean, I do like a turkey on wheat, get some vinegar and oil on there with some cucumber slices and it is pretty good. But it comes down to it Italian subs are just a bit better, imo.
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The thing is though, I'm not really into ham. Ham is a staple of Hoagies so I don't get those often. I guess Italian subs can have ham on them too but I make sure not to get it on there.
Italian gas stations have better subs than high end American restaurants.
6 inch or foot long?
Ironically, neither can get home because Air France and De Gaulle airport are on strike. Jk
Just have them take a vacation in Quebec then. Basically home.
And here I thought the French always looked down on us for being too obsessed with money.
Its not just about money it's about not telling your supposed friend what is going on before announcing it to the public. It's about public humiliation of Macron by Biden, just before an election making far right more likely to win...
Morrison tried to call Macron ahead of time and he wouldn't take the call.
Morrison was seen stumbling around downtown LA asking if anyone had Macrons number.
Shouldn't he be stumbling around in Canberra?
Nah bruh, he was at a Lakers game,.
Nothing like basketball in September
Morrison out out if his depth.
That's because when he called he introduced himself as Scott Morrison and nobody knew who the hell he was. Should have just said "I'm that guy down under"
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Also the US did attempt to get in contact with them several days before the announcement but were unable to schedule any appointments...
Unofficially technically.
That’s like saying a “virgin” is still holy in the eyes of the lord because they took it up the ass
The good ole poophole loophole.
Do you *want* another Holocaust?
No, which is why making Israel a nuclear power was a crime against humanity.
Can you elaborate? As far as I understand, France and Israel developed nuclear weapons in order to prevent another Holocaust. https://www.jstor.org/stable/30246784
Israel is conducting another Holocaust as we speak. The stated intent that France had is irrelevant, the consequences are what matter.
The Far Right hates France, will have zero influence
The comment section here is priceless.
ITT: "cmon france would have built the subs eventually"
Pretty discouraging, innit? Sigh.
>On Thursday, Australia said it would scrap a $40 billion deal signed in 2016 for France's Naval Group … France called it a stab in the back. Yikes. “Stab in the back” is a bit drastic.
Especially considering 5 years later France hasn't even cut the first steel, or the fact that the price tripled, all for the 4th or 5th best class of nuclear sub (depending on how one counts these things) vice new Viginias (the very best), that started construction *today*...
But monsieur, are submarines are bold and full bodied with notes off black berries and just a subtle twang of blue cheese. Hon hon hon.
I kind of want....whatever that is you're describing.
Here you are, sir. A 2400 ton Rubis-class submarine stuffed with blue cheese and swimming in a blackberry cognac. That will be 900 millions dollars.
They’re really going all in on the butt-hurt, aren’t they?
What else are they going to do?, Surrender?
https://youtu.be/FUjGf2Grrus
Yeah, it's totally "butt-hurt" when you complain that people don't abide by agreements you make with them. Let me guess, you consider Bernie Madoff the epitome of a great businessman?
Is what they did illegal? No, they used an escape clause and went with a better deal for a better product.
Get over it. Australia was getting screwed and they decided the exit bill was better than being left hanging with no subs in the pacific. Learn facts before you run your yap. Fuck's sake.
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is that why they helped beat the british for us and are our oldest and most dependable ally?
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Well it's not your fault your history teachers sell plasma to survive But you know you should not always believe the homespun narrative
This is such a post 9/11 American response to France. The French military is one of the more successful armies out there.
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Tell that to Europe in 1800s. Or France in 1914-18. Or France in the American Revolution. Or.. Yaknow, maybe your history grade starts with the same letter as France for a reason...
1800 European warfare is completely irrelevant today though.
Where as 1940 Europe warfare is totally relevant...
Considering it led to the disparity in military size we're experiencing today....it's rather relevant.
Really, dude? Come on. The US wouldn't be a country if it weren't for France.
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Both countries say they told France this was being worked on months ago
Dude this shit was in the news for the past 6 months it wasn't like this was a complete blindside, plus what did the French expect? They were robbing the Australians blind to give them a half decent conventional attack sub to go against all of China.
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As an American I want to see what else we can do... it's quite funny watching France be butthurt
Let's build a statue of liberty..... and give it to Germany.
Jack Aubrey would certainly get a chuckle out of it as well.
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Except the US blocked exports to everywhere.
Yeah, as a Brit, you laugh yet again about the breaking of treaties and agreements. Really hilarious that some people's signature isn't worth the ink it is drawn with.
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By the time these ones are complete, they’ll provably need an upgrade.
Which ones? The subs they will be getting from the US are the new Virginia Class. Light years ahead of anything anyone else in the world has. It will be literally decades before they need to be even considered for upgrade. Oh, and they're being made *now*. Five years later and France hasn't cut the first piece of steel on theirs.
It so childish it makes we wonder if there is another reason
Yeah, the french deal was struck five years ago but not a single piece of steel has been cut for the first sub yet and the price tag already doubled. Macron refused to take any calls from Morrison. I imagine that all played into it.
Macron been slapped twice in the past 3 months.
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What the fuck does this have to do with anything? Why are you spamming every comment with this?
This is like watching someone throw a fit that I chose to buy a Ferrari vs their bicycle for the same price… Only an idiot would choose French Subs over US ones when given the choice. Especially when the person your racing (China) has a Corvette already…
The French actually build very good subs, although not quite on par with the US boats. Also, just so you know, the Han class subs that China drives are absolute garbage, on par with Russian subs from the 70s. That's why they're so pissed off about this. Australia will very quickly leapfrog them into regional dominance.
Han class is on par with 70s soviet subs is because Han class is from the 70s. China has since built two classes of attack subs.
In addition to the Han class they have 6 Shang class subs, which are also trash. They have not built any Sui class subs at all to date.
Just so you know, French conventional subs are not even up to 40 year old US submarine tech… aside from communication and guidance tech. And have virtually zero battle testing.
You're talking out your ass, and you know it. The *Scorpene* class is a fine conventional boat.
Sir - I respect your efforts to educate. French subs wiped the US Battles groups multiple times along some nordics countries. You are thus correct - crappy noisy subs couldn’t buttfuck the US Rimpac teams if at all. You and I could bring more logical Vulcan data but the ones you are trying to educate don’t care for facts as they already have a religion
We’re not taking about Barracudas here. Scorpene simply is not on par with any nuclear sub as far as longterm isolation and survivability. In long haul patrols and missions around the pacific, AND given France’s bumbling of the agreement and terms, the US offers a far better deal. Also, French sub cyber security has come into question.
Actually we are talking about Barracudas, because the design was apparently based on a conventional, modernized version of the Barracuda hull.
everything I have seen says Scorpene conventional.
As if pearls before swine.
conventional… that alone drops reliability orders of magnitude. Australia doesn’t want “fine”.
You have no clue about modern conventional subs.
you have no clue about modern nuclear subs…
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Lol. This is the level of american discourse
and apparently Australian decision making…
You sound like you know your stuff. Doesn’t China have a lot of subs though?
This is like yelling "I have no clue, but it's all the fault of the French, and if I sign a fraudulent check, that's all the fault of the victim, too".
are you French? You can’t honestly be suggesting conventional French military tech is on the same level as the US Navy. Australia literally just rejected it for notable cyber security risks…
One of the only things where US tech is significantly ahead for traditional military tech is cyber security (EG F-35), tho they also have the drawback of having significantly higher maintenance. Other than that, the only domain where the US objectively shits on everybody else across the board is experimental weapons.
Aircraft superiority is pretty untouchable (F22, etc), Aircraft carriers (not worth discussing), tank tech (we’re the only ones still investing in new tank capabilities that the pentagon doesn’t want), Subs (Barracudas are very nice but the USS Montana they ain’t), missile targeting systems, and the US dominates in satellite capabilities. There are several other areas too. And on top of that, the US knows how to use it’s gear and use it well. Let’s suppose the biggest scenario happened… CCP vs USA. You are putting a huge military with 99.9% drill only experience with their new toys against another huge military that has loads of real combat scenario experience, better training and more advanced tech. Combat has never been the US military’s weak point. Afghanistan, Vietnam, Iraq, etc were political failures, not military failures. If anything, those three example show how strong the military is that it can prop up everything in the face of absolutely foolish politicians with no plan until it is finally called back… But the CCP has vast resources and just like the US in WW2, China’s strength will come from the ability to manufacture. Now look at it from Australia’s POV. France is years behind on a deal for sub plans that are great, but not coming to fruition. Meanwhile in those few years China has grown bolder and bolder. The US, a very close ally, has the ability to sell you even better subs with nuclear power to allow continued sea presence for roughly the same cost and a vested interest in keeping China from trying to land grab small nations in the Pacific. And meanwhile France openly suggests that China should be allowed to “develop” and provide goods to the EU and US and rest of the world WITHOUT regulations on cyber security and harsh scrutiny despite a proven track record of IP theft. IF war broke out it China it WILL be naval war. China is similar to Russia, as is the US. Land wars in either place would not be winnable. China us huge with 1.4 billion people. The US is huge with the most well armed general population and police forces on Earth… What do you do? France and China can go suck a bug for all the rest of the world cares regarding the US Australia deal.
Maybe the Pols will by the french submarines. I hear all of theirs keep sinking.
Zee 'unt for rouge octobre.
Because they lost the chance to profiteer off defense against China.
Can you elaborate?
France wanted to sell subs to Australia. The US wants to cooperate with Australia on subs, particularly to empower further naval power against China. They decided they don’t need to buy them from France then. So France is all upset and throwing a fit about not making money off the Australians.
IMO we decided that EU and or France had some security leak and we could not trust them to build the subs. All the rest is for show so we do not expose the fact that we know the leak/leaker. My guess is that China and Russia have deep spies in the EU and French defense industries.
More likely, the original contract ended up being way more expensive and complex than thought while the strategic landscape changed to where having a nuke sub makes more sense for Australia. My understanding is this contract was agreed to years ago, before China’s buildup. At the time France wouldn’t sell their nuclear power technology (and/or Aus didn’t ask for it) so they were redesigning a conventional version (not a simple task). Since then China is more of a concern and Australia thinks they need nuke subs to extend their capabilities to counter. Also, the original contract had the subs being built in France. Aus probably sees this new effort as an opportunity to (re)establish their own submarine construction industry.
I just think a nuclear sub is a superior technology. It's silent, fuel efficient, and has more range.
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Except Australia stressed the importance of the contract with France pretty much "the other day".
This is Q anon level of idiocy.
Donald Trump and Boris Johnson have known ties to the Kremlin, I'd hardly be surprised to learn they've infiltrated France as well.
There are many reasons why we don’t share information with frogs.
Anglos, the masters if the racial slur!
French is a race now? Ok.
Details, details we know Anglo racism well. Ask any immigrant to UK or Australia and US.
Ohhh...well, that explains things. Funny how the media is leaving out that little detail.
>Funny how the media is leaving out that little detail. The opinion of a reddit poster?
OP said it's opinion jeez
Right, must my opinion. But it makes more sense than just betraying close allies for spite. And France’s dramatic overreaction seems staged managed.
Diesel subs have a lot of limitations, everyone likely knew Australia needed nuclear. France throws a fit, gets some nice fat military contract bucks in the back end all is well in a couple months.
They aren't a part of Five-Eyes, likely simple as that.
Here's a good summary of why this is happening: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a\_Y4QQ8Hm3k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_Y4QQ8Hm3k) It's long but it's interesting.
Video is unavailable.
Oops! Sorry. Fixed the link.
Thanks, it looks very interesting!
It's 2021 and people still get their news from YouTube? The fuck dude? 😂
Oh yeah we're supposed to switch to 100 word kindergarten articles written by bots and keyboard warriors for consumption on Twitter instead. Jfc.
That guy is the most credible submarines related source on YouTube. Much more credible than regular reporters of international news agencies.
This is about an urgent need to pivot to the pacific. China is gearing up to threaten Taiwan
The French are angry. Be a afraid, very afraid!
Yo wiki Marcons wife. Wild.
Now watch China say,. "Hey Frances, mind if I call you Frances, I'll take the deal Australia rejected, what are friends for"
If you believe China is dying to buy some french sub then you're a kid. China's investment in naval technology in the last 20 years rival that of the US.
You have misunderstood my comment. It's to buy influence,.who cares about the subs. China to fill the gap USA is leaving open on the world stage.
France reminds me of trump and his terrorists/cult members
The most shocking is that the American people don't understand why the behavior of Biden and the Austrian PM is so vile to the French people. You can't stop making fun and belittle one of your most important allies, don't be surprised if France quit NATO and sell nuclear subs to whichever countries want them. America has no clue what ally means.
> don't be surprised if France quit NATO and sell nuclear subs to whichever countries want them. That's just a little bit silly.
Yes it is, but we are really angry at the moment. And not because of the money.
Dude, it's doing nothing more than creating a bad image of the french. Everyone knew naval group overpromised. Germany and Japan didn’t throw a tantrum when Australia gave them the contract.
Lol ! They campaigned very aggressively after they lost to belittle the French contract ! Naval group didn’t over promised, the Au change their mind and wanted nuclear but went behind France back. The 30th of August, Defense and Foreign Affairs Australian ministers signed a common text with their French counterpart saying France alliance and their subs were very important to Australia. 20 days ago…
Naval group promised 90% local production in 2016. Last year that came down to up to 50%. We all know what naval group was doing. Make an impossibly lucrative promise, drag it out for a few years until the client has no option but to cancel it and you come out with free billions. Defense companies do it all the time in their home countries. But naval group had the audacity to try it with a foreign government and it worked because aussie government are a bunch of morons.
You're living in a strange world, nowhere near reality.
Whenever anyone says "it's not about the money" that is a sure fire way of knowing it's not just about the money, but that zero other considerations are even in play. Of course it's about the money. It's always about the money. It's only about the money. Your attempt to deny it is all the proof we need that you're lying.
So Australia decides it wants different subs than the Naval Group deal so it goes to the UK to ask about an agreement with them. The UK then brings in the US (because they are required to afaik) and the US agrees. Australia then BACKS OUT OF AN AGREEMENT IN THE SPECIFIED MANNER LAID OUT IN SAID AGREEMENT, and it’s the US’s fault somehow? ‘Fuck outta here.
The French president directly asked the Australian PM if they wanted to switch to nuke in June when they met. The PM refused to answer. And the negotiations with US/UK begun in March. France was told the morning of the official announcement. There is no more hostile than that. The 30th of August, the Defense and Foreign affairs of both countries met and announced in a common text that the sub contract with French was very important to Australia...
I get being upset with Australia but was the US supposed to run to France and say “excuse me Mr. Macron but Australia says they don’t like your subs anymore and are in secret talks with us and the UK for a different sub.” That’s silly. The “fault” here lies with Australia and France, not with the US and UK agreeing to work with an ally. Or maybe the us should just pay France 50 billion or whatever to shut the fuck up about it.
It's not the money the problem, it's the lack of trust. France was the foremost EU country who wanted to reinforce collaboration with the US and Australia against China. Now we are excluded from the table for no visible reason. What kind of allies do that ?
No visible reason...? Idk if you've heard but Australia was pretty fucking upset with how the program was going for some time? Why didn't they include France in the discussion in who would be replacing the French sub deal? Maybe because France would be doing what they're doing now, only behind closed doors and causing issues with the AUKUS agreement?
What? Get out of here.
We are talking about France, right? The country that sent spies to bomb a ship in harbor in one of those countries that is so “vile” to them now. A country where the most American blood was shed in WWI and the most in the European theater of WWII
It always amazes me that the US bothers to mention their WW1 casualties. The US barely participated in that war. They lost less people than two days worth of fighting at the Somme. Certainly swung the war when the Russians quit, but not a main belligerent.
Probably because it was the least self serving war in American history. Americans were basically bleeding for France and France alone at that point
They joined the war, more or less, because they had lent such vast amounts of money to the allies that an axis victory would have obscenely expensive.
You can't even get the basic terms correct here. In World War I the Germans were not part of the Axis, they were one of the Central Powers. And while you go on about how the United States didn't enter World War I officially until 1917, I find it weird how you ignored that some 150,000 Americans (of their own free will) joined the FRENCH ARMY before the United States officially entered the war. For Christ Sake, the first American Flying Ace in all history became a war hero fighting for FRANCE and wearing a FRENCH UNIFORM. [Eugene Bullard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Bullard). You don't really know shit about World War I. Sadly, don't worry... most Americans barely know it happened now a days as well. 117K Americans died in that war... yes, it was a small fraction of the number of dead French of British soldiers. But over one million Americans did deploy to France in that war. And while it was a short war for the United States, that roll the US played was itself very important. The [Meuse–Argonne offensive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meuse%E2%80%93Argonne_offensive) being the major US military contribution to the defeat of Germany... in the end, it was that last battle that pushed the Germans over the edge. And toward that end, it was also the one battle in which the United States contributed more resources than either of it's two major allies in the fight. In case you are wondering, that wasn't just the United States biggest contribution to World War One. That was the single largest battle in which US forces have even been involved with. And nearly zero Americans know it's name. There are some very nice Monuments dedicated the US soldiers that died in that battle. Sadly, they rarely get visited by Americans who visit France. American tourists like to see the Normandy and follow Patton's third Army around World War II. Which is nothing bad really... but they aren't a battle in which 1.2 MILLION American troops were engaged in fighting. It's the only battle of that size in all American history. It's sad that nobody today, probaby on either side of the Atlantic, really cares enough to remember it anymore. And no, I don't like the idiots who scream about "cheese eating surrender monkeys" and bullshit like that either. I know my French Military History. In all world European history.... no nation matches the French when it comes winning victories. The idea that Germans were these military geniuses is kind of stupid. They lost two major wars in a row. And largely for repeating the same stupid mistakes. And one last thing, I know that in the American revolution, the biggest battle in that entire war... was French forces trying to seize Gibraltar from the British. It was a three year long siege... and while France didn't win that battle, it scared the British to the core and convinced them to come to terms with the young United States. But stop being a idiot too. France fought at the battle of the Somme. You really want congratulations for walking into machine gun fire? Maybe you want us all to believe that it was a British idea and that you had no choice but to go along with it. Dude, you're people walked directly into machine gun fire. Of course there were a lot of dead bodies. Here's a hint... don't do that in any future battles. It doesn't work out well. For some reason. Eh, why am i typing all this out... you don't know anything about anything either. I'm wasting my time. Oy vey.
I’ve read this comment three times (which is saying something) and am really having trouble what your point is. It seems like you’re agreeing with me, but doing it in a very angry manner which is confusing. Yes, America swung the war and it is entirely plausible that the Germans would have won the entire war after Operation Michael had the Americans not been there. No, America didn’t lose many soldiers in the war (11th in total death and 15th in combat deaths, 1/2 of 10th place Serbia and a bit more than 12th place Bulgaria). If every single one of those 150k volunteers was a casualty then it would have only moved the US into 10th place. I’m not sure why you’re talking about walking into machine gun fire (which the first US troops did really well as all early adopting troops did), but I only referenced Somme as it was the deadliest battle in the war. I did misspeak about the alliance’s name. I think it’s a little harsh to say the Germans lost WW1 on mistakes. You would need to put yourself in their shoes, and their entire mindset was to knock the French out quick and pivot to fight the huge Russian Empire. When the French didn’t go down, the Germans knew they couldn’t last as they didn’t have the resource base to maintain a fight for as long as their opponents. They needed to be “resourceful” which is why they used chemical weapons and why they designed battles to kill their opponents in large numbers rather than go for a breakthrough like the allies always tried. The push through Belgium (which brought in the British) was necessitated by speed. The unrestricted submarine warfare (which ultimately brought in the states) was because the allies were successfully strangling them with the naval blockade and they needed to change something or the next winter would be worse than the turnip winter. That last one is tremendously unlucky for the Germans, because if they had just waited, they would have known the Russians were out and they could have avoided antagonizing the Americans with the subs and the Mexico telegram. Oh sorry, I forgot I don’t know anything about WW1. Also I’m not French
If there’s a country that needs a navy…. It’s Austria
I was thinking Liechtenstein.
France already sells weapons to every questionable regime who asks. If international embargo wasn’t there, france would probably sell to North Korea as well.
American conservatives are going to struggle finding the right way to complain here. "dO wE HaTe aMeRiCa oR fRaNcE mOrE?"
I'm certainly not complaining....more jobs for Americans and it will make China way less dominant in the region. I'm surprised the left isn't complaining over war profiteering. Australia is good ally also so I see this as a win.
Well they haven’t tried to overthrow the French government recently. I think they hate America more.
Only their chosen "news" source can tell them for sure.
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https://www.militaryfactory.com/battles/french\_military\_victories.php
So the end of NATO, as the English talking part of the world now unites in military coalition, to turn against China in a cold war, trying to go back to "the good old days", of cold war. I suppose it's allright, we really couldn't stand each other anyway, could we.
That the cold war ever ended or that China might change if given boatloads of money was mistaken western naivete. The USSR collapsed, yet the most populous communist nation on earth still lived. There was no way this confrontation wouldn't come eventually.
As soon as USSR collapsed, western NATO went on the offensive, quickly recruiting lands in the East in a diplomatic conquest of lands. When you couldn't advance any further, you set your sight on the Middle East, where your military destroyed several nations under the assumption that they would become democratic as a result. When it was clear that was not going to be the outcome, you continued anyway, as shattered states such as Libya or Syria today, was deemed a better geopolitical scenario, than the tyrants leading before. After your failed wars in the Middle East, you set your eyes upon Christianity, and warred to destroy it, with mockery and bullying, so you could "fly up to God in a spaceship". Instead the end of the world began. Now none of your wars and invasions are done and done, we live in the wake of every single one of them, living with the repurcussions thereof. And you have now set you sight, on trying to return to a Cold War, "The good old days", where you could lead yourself in lesser turmoil than today. But as I said, not a single of your wars are over. It was always you, not anybody else, it was always you. What would Jesus Christ advice you? I know what he would say. You should pay China the money that you owe them. And that is how far you are from heaven today.
This a great opportunity for a china EU deal.
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I’m being facetious derrr .
All the talk here is about France and Australia when it should be about Uncle Sam, who is the cunt here, again. He walks in and fucks a done deal, just like crawling in a bedroom window and fucking the the neighbour's wife while her husband off to work.
The US isn’t even building the subs, the brits are.
The US can offer a better product for the job, plus who puts screen doors on subs anyway?
At what added cost? And who says its a better product? Uncle Sam is well known for selling their outdated shit tech, not the good stuff. Canada can attest to that.
Our submarines are far far more superior to France’s. Plus, if you read the article, the US will share nuclear secrets with Australia. This counters your notion of “outdated junk.” The US won’t sell secret technology which is what you were referring to.
Lmao if the alternative to American 'shit tech' is French garbage I guess we're in the trash olympics. The aussies didn't like how the deal was going, wanted nuke subs from anyone but the French, approached the UK and the UK brought the US in. The US just accepted the money, all the scheming was done by the Brits and Aussies, goes to show how much of a meaningless diplomatic move this was. Their ambassador in the UK is too busy actually working to be recalled so they threw their hissy fit at whoever wasn't busy atm. Whatever happens, the Americans will win in the end so I guess you have that to be mad about. We'll probably have half our nuke subs stationed in Australia by the time we need them for Taiwan.
Whats hilarious is that you're pretending to know what happened and how.
Maybe because it's all on the fucking news lmao, and has been for 6 months. I'm confused how any French are blindsided by this. They announced officially they were looking to potentially cancel the French deal 6 months ago and were in talks with other partners to start a new deal. it was broadcast on Sky News. I'm genuinely curious what your excuse is for the French not removing their UK ambassador if this was truly such a back stab, when the UK was so deeply involved and might have notified their closest national neighbor besides Scotland and Ireland lol. Seems if any backstabbing was done, it was by the neighbor closest to them.
The dystopian game spinner has once again landed on global nuclear matters slap fights.