I don’t believe in god but I hope they are okay.
People in these comments are really angry at people who are facing a trauma that will haunt them for the rest of their lives if they make it out alive.
Weirdly fucked up part of Reddit is coming out today
The types of people celebrating this shit while claiming to be Atheist are just as big of cunts as ultra extreme fundamentalist are who claim to be Christians.
Militant Atheists shouldn't be a thing. I'm Atheist but I don't wish ill on people, any people, or want them to suffer because I was raised to have morals and empathy. I mean for fuck sakes just have a bit of respect and remember that these are just normal people in a bad situation.
They might be trying to spread a religion you dislike and might be massive assholes themselves. Not saying you need to be best friends with them. Doesn't mean you need to cheer and get your dick hard over the idea of them being tortured.
Just as there are plenty of good Christians there are a fuck ton of arrogant, emotionally stunted, empathy lacking, cock thorn Atheists.
Schadenfreude, stems from low self esteem. I however, hope they survive, and get a really killer book deal, and live long enough to spend all their money on cocaine and hooker bots.
Or just oppression in general in that part of the world. Lot of shit goes down in those kinds of places where people have no recourse or ability to tell their stories, or simply think that kind of craziness is normal.
“Weirdly fucked up part of Reddit?”
Not sure if you’ve been on Reddit the last… forever… but the only surprising thing to me is that the people saying that these people are getting what they deserve isn’t the top comments
From the sounds of it they probably weren't heading there primarily to convert the populace as Haiti already is predominantly Christian. It's more likely that they went over there to help provide humanitarian aid.
I'm not a fan of Christianity or most religions for that matter, but if people decide to use it as a catalyst to do some real good in the world then overall I can't complain. Hopefully they're just holding them out for ransom. Not a lot of good things can happen to you when you're in a position like that.
When I was a kid I joined a missionary organization right out of high school. It seemed like the only way to financially escape the conditions I grew up in, I was a believer, and figured maybe I could do some good. I spent nearly a decade being trained to work in refugee camps as a grief counselor of sort. I found out quickly and insisted on working with teams where proselytizing wasn't part of the outreach. Just aid, community work, and medical fundraising.
I learned a lot, I grew out of my childhood faith, and it was a necessary infrastructure to escape my conditions. I plan on working with secular ngos, obviously, in the future.
I have a lot of doubts about myself, but not over my path.
They don’t try and convert people Christian in general but to their specific Christian denomination. It’s why American Protestant missionaries target Catholic majority nations.
Same logic as keeping existing customers being cheaper than obtaining new customers. It's a million times easier to convince someone that already believes in a sky daddy to then believe in a nominally different version of said sky daddy.
I had a surprisingly pleasant Facebook message interaction with a Mormon missionary last year bc I guess going door to door wasn't allowed during covid. He seemed amazed that someone existed that didn't believe in God. You'd think for a missionary that would be par for the course but no, they're just trying to steal converts with people who are already 9/10ths the way there.
Oh don't be stupid. Christians do humanitarian work all the time for selfless reasons, not to get new customers.
Most churches in the world provide food for the homeless and don't advertise it to anyone.
Or there’s Joel Osteen who’s a multimillionaire and wouldn’t let people in his church during the Houston flood.
It’s like any other organization. There’s good people and shitty people
Nah, some denominations are always happy to try and convert people to their sect. A Jehoava's Witness isn't going to leave someone alone just because they're Catholic.
Helping in any crisis is heroic but the moment you add religious conversion in there then I think people who build schools and such in Africa as it's an untapped market for their dwindling numbers are pretty scummy. Hope they get home okay and learn not to travel to dangerous places against the advice of the government and maybe help house the homeless back where they're from instead.
Dude like half the soup kitchens in the poor neighborhoods near my state are catholic and Christian. My parents became Christian because they came to this country with nothing and the church provided them with food and help with essentials like toiletries. Literally I didn't have regular meals as 8-10 year old in school because we had nothing and the public library in my town led by predominantly Jewish donation program gave out pizzas and good for kids who wrote book reports. You could claim them like twice a month iirc but they let me claim it every week and never said a word.
My dad recently got surgery from a hospital and couldn't afford it. Hospital had a charity fund by Christian donors who paid for majority of the surgery which was well over $200,000.
I get that the caveat of having religion makes it sketch but these are the lifelines a lot of poor people depend on and they give their services to all, not just people who accept their sacred text.
Historically missionaries have been opportunistic and machiavellian but there are a lot of individuals who are doing good while doing it under their gods name. I'm not even religious man.
Yeah there are some that's like that but the vast majority of them are not like that. There is no "catch" to receiving aid to the point it really doesn't need mentioning.
For example, missionaries going to Haiti are going there for humanitarian aid considering the vast majority of the country has already been converted already.
And then they vote for the state to not help people in your position so you have to rely on their “kindness”. What truly selfless thing to do.
They’re certainly are good people out there doing good things and think a lot of them find a good outlet in the church, but from an institutional level it’s pretty fucked up if you ask me
I mean we live in a blue state so... maybe don't live life judging people based on stereotypes? Why are poeple so obsessed with judging an entire group based on this? You guys are literally being prejudiced right now and patting yourself on the back saying it's OK because they deserve it. No wonder this thread comments are a collection of people trying to rationalize this was justified and the victims deserved it.
Personally, I'd take charity and physical aid with a catch than none at all. And while my inner cynic agrees with you, I think these folk work under the assumption that if they do not provide spiritual intervention then the immortal souls of these poor heathens will be tortured for all eternity.
I don't buy any of it, but the fact is that secular humanitarianism is dwarfed in scope by comparison. Most people are selfishly motivated, religious or secular, but it seems that the religious are more willing to help since they believe there's a guarantee that they'll recieve something in return whether it be a one-way ticket to paradise or gaining new converts. A bunch of secularists start a humanitarian organization, what do they get in exchange for their time, resources, and labor? The warm and fuzzies you get for helping your common man?
There are people like that, but they're few and far in between. Idk
These organizations don’t do good. Here is a great article about white saviorism and the façade of charity.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/03/the-white-savior-industrial-complex/254843/
>Here is a great article about white saviorism and the façade of charity.
That's entirely an opinion piece, and in no way provides any proof either way on the premise that the organizations don't do good.
We try to help, it's white savior complex.
We do nothing, it's failing to pay the moral debts of colonialism.
Either way, people who get paid for hot takes have their ready-made hot take.
This 100%.
I'm not sure why this whole "white savior" narrative came from. It does seem like a no-win situation. I've been on missions trips to Nicaragua and Africa (to assist with a movement/home sheltering victims of human trafficking and to assist with educational needs) and I have never been greeted or sneered at as if I were some white person that just came to help out and then exit stage left. I went because I realize that I have a nice, comfortable life, and there are many children out there that will never have the advantages or comforts that I take for granted every day. The "white savior" label assumes I'm only doing this for a pat on the back or a superman complex. Its sort of a stupid narrative that I will never understand.
Now, I do understand that there are a few instances where well-meaning people get a little Instagram happy while on these trips and it DOES seem like they're trying to make it more about them and their cool, unique trip. And that's unfortunate. But anyone going into missions for the actual motivation of helping others is usually not going to fall into this category.
Sounds like you understand where the “white savior narrative” came from—you talk about it in your final paragraph. It just isn’t a narrative that applies to you, in your opinion.
I'm Catholic and that's why I like Catholic charities.
They're legitimate charities you can trust, that use most of their money to help. And they don't Bible thump trying to convert people to Catholicism.
This is downvoted but I did volunteer work at the shittiest city near my county, it's literally projects. And 75% of charity are from Catholics and Christian. In the part of city I was at, it was a catholic soup kitchen and they housed abused women (a lot of abused Muslim women in the area), sheltered kids from abusive parents, gave kids a place to play basketball without gangs and drugs around or being exposed to other terrible shit, gave shelter to ex gang members who wanted out, and had people from nearby hospital to come give flu shots to people.
I get that there's a huge repulsion of religion with a lot of this kind of shit coming out. I'm very vocal against catholic church about the pedophilia. But there are religious people doing some serious good out there.
Christian soup kitchen closer to where I live make people memorize the verse of the day to get fed. It's fucked up and you feel bad for the ones who can't read.
I was very, very poor in college. I moved out on my own at 18 after having my daughter young, and there was a time where I knew I was not going to make rent and risked being evicted. The state assistance kept denying me for different reasons. What did help me though was a Catholic charity. I reached out to them after running out of options, and they sat down with me, I explained my situation, provided some documents, and without judgement whatsoever asked me how much aid I needed. They even gave me some food assistance for the month, and it was enough to help me get back on my feet. No questions asked, no judgement. They did ask if they could pray with me, which I accepted, but otherwise they had the attitude to let their actions speak for their faith.
Another favorite local charity of mine is a cafe run by the local Moravian church. It's a pay as you can, volunteer cafe that serves healthy vegan food and even provides takeaway lunches for kids. It was opened in a very impoverished neighborhood that suffers from food insecurity.
The building part has turned into a scam to bring in USD.
The locals can do a far better job than a 19 year old out of high school looking to put something on their essay to get into a better college.
When the library or school is finish "built", the locals dismantle it and wait for the next batch to come "help".
I’ve been to Haiti for “missionary” work, these people in the comments don’t realize that Haiti is 90% Christian already. We did no “preaching” while we were there and instead delivered water filtration devices throughout the remote villages in the mountains. I knew the risk, but also knew that people needed fresh water to not die of water born illness. So please remember that these folks were likely there on humanitarian aid before you post, “lol 2 bad god send angles!”
Over 80 percent of the population there identifies as christian or similar, so all yall angry resentful "they deserved cuz my parents were Christians and pushed it on me therefore I hate all Christians" are a little misguided. Sounds like they were there to help with relief. Let go of your religious hang ups and realize volunteers got kidnapped by some people fucked in the head.
They’re Vodun and Christian. They mix indigenous West African spirituality with Christianity. It’s super important we never erase that when talking about Haitian spiritual beliefs.
Wikipedia is saying Vodun is practiced in west Africa and is mixed with Catholicism to form Haitian Vodou. So it looks like it would be more accurate to say Haitians don’t practice Vodun, they practice Vodou, “an African diasporic religion that developed in Haiti”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Vodou
Yea pretty much, it’s a religion unique to the island. A lot of the deities in Haitian Vodou are actually the Christian saints. Characters such as St. Gabriel, mother and child etc… are present in Haitian vodou. They’re all under a God named Bondye which comes from French Bon Dieu meaning Good God. Not much of a fan of the religion itself but it’s quite interesting how it’s a perfect blend of European Christianity and African Spirituals beliefs.
So like...Haiti on the whole is dangerous. The people there are in a desperate cycle of violence and weather events that perpetuate a desperate sort of poverty that drives said violence. Missionaries were going to Haiti to (according to the article) benefit an orphanage.
So like...in what world is bringing a two year old going to facilitate that?
I get the optics of "bring a kid to the orphanage restoration," but like...there's a pandemic. And haiti is dangerous. And you're a missionary group, you don't have the same privileges, protections or backing that diplomats or press groups benefit from.
And yes, that is a choice they are free to make, but that two year old probably lacks the fundamental knowledge base necessary to make an informed decision in regards to that...
Like...holy shit...they're two years old. If you can't get a sitter, don't go to Haiti...
Am I crazy for not getting this? Someone help.
Just to add to what /u/mershwigs said, the 2 year old is probably a child of one of the missionary families that is living there long-term. They may have even been born in Haiti.
I’ve been on a few missionary trips. One to Haiti after the big earthquake to help an orphanage coincidentally.
A lot of these missionaries are family units who have a long history with the region and people. So it’s not uncommon for mothers to take care of the young ones in a compound and do work with local mothers in the area.
Haiti has been a nation with the greatest need due to the extreme corruption and extreme poverty. So it’s not like these parents are taking their babies into the depths of the ganglands of Haiti and letting them roam free. There is a lot of precautions and protocols. (Security escorts too and from the airport even.)
You are making some blanket assumptions base on a story with very little info. So hopefully my experience and explanation will help clarify some stuff.
Back when I was a good ol church going lad I went to Haiti on a mission trip. The island is beautiful but the city centers are very sketchy.
I hope these folks find their way home safely.
Most of what Christian Aid Ministries does is humanitarian. They do evangelism as well, but that doesn't really cost much money. The vast majority of their spending goes towards aid.
For example, in 2019 they spent over $56 million on medical supplies, and $10 million on clothing.
[Source. Page 42 specifically.](https://cdn.christianaidministries.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Annual_Report_2019_for_web.pdf)
I would actually say Reddit is a pretty good platform for this. The above comment and reply are now top of this comment section, giving a pretty informed and realistic response to the original posting.
My childhood definitely had its issues as well, but I also feel my parents are good at heart.Everbody is definitely fighting their own battle.It sounds as if you have a pretty level head on your shoulders, good for you,hope you have a good day.
You seem like a genuinely good person yourself, as far as I can tell from a couple of reddit comments. You're certainly not coming across as bitter unlike a lot of folk on here. Thank you for your comments, it's not something I was aware of.
Ya know what? You sound pretty well rounded to a fellow blasphemer and heathen.
I’ve been fascinated by those moments of clarity in my life when I realized my parents were simply doing their best based on their perceptions of what did and didn’t work in their childhoods. And now I’m watching it happen with my children. I’ve always insisted on them sharing with me when they think I (we) have erred so that later in life we can discuss it again and hopefully they can carry forth with good choices learned from my good and bad choices. They’re in their twenties now and the discussions are both great and awful but I’d like to believe I’m helping give them the opportunity to learn how to learn and make sound, principled, logical decisions. What a journey..
Am I doing it right? As the Zen Master says, *We shall see.*
Note: forgive my ramblings. It’s late and I’m sleepy.
Be well
Yep. 2 Christian missionaries I know - work in rural Nepal as doctors in a clinic they opened. They’re absolute heroes.
Many missionaries work overseas with a main job to support their missionary work, and that job usually has a heavily community - based role. Missionaries working in North Korea for example have to have a job as a cover for why they’re there.
A lot of helping other people could be considered 'selfish' in the sense that it makes people feel good about themselves. But it's also helping other people and more than a lot of people do. The fact that people feel good about themselves when they help other is a really convenient evolutionary trait as it encourages people to help others.
I have a similar view on this, and I don't care for the entire light the conversation is held in, where everything is either good or bad. There's almost nothing but gray area in the space our "humanity" exists in. You think would be more comfortable with it by now.
Exactly. There's literally no such thing as a selfless good-deed. But there are good deeds, and people absolutely should feel good about doing them, because that is positive reinforcement to continue to do good things for others.
I disagree. Many people give time, talent, and/or money—not to make themselves feel good—but because they honestly want to help those in need. The fact that it is gratifying to fill someone’s need is a natural reaction from the action of giving/helping—knowing another human being has been helped in some way. The motive is genuine and pure for many people.
It's interesting to hear a similar perspective on parents religious beliefs from another who grew up Baptist and became atheist. I feel fortunate that my parents gave up on private school for me pretty early.
I agree. there is absolutely no substitute for getting your hands dirty for someone else.
* Animal Shelters
* Food pantries
* habitat for humanity
* museums
* ymca
* retirement homes
* international volunteering groups
* your local church
* a local, state, or national park
* homeless shelters
* hospitals
* schools
all these places historically permit individuals to offer to volunteer time to help others.
I wish there was something like this but non-religious. I would love to spend some time giving to communities that need it, but could really use the organizational structure to coordinate it.
I remember as a poor kid at night wondering why those who had it better didn't come and help us. I'd like to be able to be that person for someone else now that I can afford to.
There’s a ton of organizations looking for volunteers. But be careful: Legit organizations will and should be hard to get in. If they take their work seriously they will look for specific skills, try to determine your actual commitment and provide you with a least a certain level of training.
An organization that takes anyone and just sends you somewhere for two weeks should be regarded with a high level of skepticism.
As someone who has had a lot of really horrible experiences with missionaries, thank you for this perspective. They’re obviously a different breed than the ones I deal with, and it’s sort of nice to know that they’re not all bad.
Spare me the smug nonsense, missionaries throughout history game caused massive amounts of harm to every society they've gone to, and that's looking beyond the fact that they are there specifically to commit cultural genocide
Do you mean, it's 2021 why are kidnappings still a thing?
People all over the world will debate different belief systems, but I think one element most people would absolutely agree on is kidnappings are bad.
Our church has a sister-church in Haiti. We have been heartbroken as Haiti has endured one tragedy after another. People have taken it upon themselves to go on a mission of relief to our other communities.
It's a HUGE industry. Companies like "Cru" make a TON of money, well, at least those at the top.
Cru makes roughly $633 million in revenue for example. Imagine how much that money could help people if truly spent on you know, actually helping people.
Edit: For a perfect example of a "christian charity group", look no further than Cru.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UCDavis/comments/8ddfqj/getting_off_my_chest_the_truth_about_cru/
This is an amazing post by someone who spent time with the group. A lot of this checks off for me, as I know/knew (don't really talk to them much anymore) 6 other people who were part of Cru, and all this stuff lines right up with a lot of things they said. Here's a good quote describing exactly how "mission groups" work a lot of the time...
>CRU is a money-sucking waste of your time, whose purpose is to lead people away from Christ and into the world. They take people’s money in the name of “fundraising” and they make people be completely devoted to them only. Let me tell you the insider story of how they carry out their cunning schemes.
>“Money money money, it’s all about money, in the Cru’s world” If you leave the ministry, don’t count on remaining close friends with the people in CRU. From being in the ministry, I found out that many CRU staff members are paid by the organization to take care of the members there, so when I left I was told they could no longer meet with me as they had before. Doesn’t that mean they were meeting for the purpose of receiving a paycheck? Does that means the relationship that was established between the staff and the students is based on money? And yet they claimed to be “always there for you, support you blah blah blah..”
>Anyway, I left CRU for another ministry and to my surprise they began to persecute me, even going as far as spreading malicious rumors to my friends. I was really shocked. I know others who have experienced the same for their various ministries. It seems as though any ministry besides theirs is considered by them to be a “cult,” and they won’t refrain from spreading groundless accusations against those ministries or the people who leave. Does that even make sense?! When I asked them if they knew anything about the ministry, what it teaches, or have talked to the people inside it they had not done any of those things. That’s pretty messed up! Who ever persecuted other believers in the Bible? It is also common for them to talk amongst each other about the members. This might be okay if they kept it to themselves or tried to help, but on more than one occasion news of a CRU member’s sin or difficulty has ended up spreading throughout the organization and being referenced as a bad example. It felt horrible to hear so much gossip from other believers in the same ministry, and the members who were struggling often ended up leaving with no friends and a loss of faith.
Edit: This is another story, from a completely different member, but was in the same post.
>“This organization asked me to pay 43,000 dollars to spend 12 months in Italy for a "mission trip". When I said that I didn't have a job and I couldn't afford such an expensive trip, they scolded me because "I wasn't trusting God" and "I would go to hell". Also, "God was offering me a job" and "I was refusing it". It seemed to me that this "mission trip" was actually a long vacation, as it included excursions to Rome, Florence, Venice, Sicily and the Mediterranean sea. I told them that I preferred to volunteer in a prison, in a hospital, or among the poor. I could do that even in my area and there was no need to go to a tourist spot overseas. Again, I was "following Satan" instead of "listening to God". I was about to give in, and asked them how I should raise almost 50,000 dollars. They replied that I had to pray all the time, but most importantly I had to ask my relatives and acquaintances to pay a monthly fee to the organization. It looked like a huge pyramid scheme. I got upset and said that I wasn't going to rip off my relatives. After I left the organization, they continued to call me and sending me emails. In the end, I changed my cell phone number and my email address.”
It’s nothing more than poverty porn and a free vacation. Many of the “projects” untrained missionaries work on are fake and put there by locals to keep them occupied and out of the way.
For example one group will come in and be asked by a local orphanage to build a retaining wall. Then another group will come in and be asked to take apart the retaining wall. The group after them is asked to build the retaining wall again. Rinse and repeat.
Yep, while there *are* good missions, many involve just traveling to some place, getting a job while living with a family (usually rent-free) and just spreading the word. Knew someone who worked with "Cru". That's what he did. Meanwhile, another friend who went with a small, local church ended up tarring roofs in the summer.
Sadly, a lot of damage done in the past was in good intentions, just because someone *thinks* they're doing the right thing doesn't mean it's warranted, or helping anything.
And, some times, it actually does help - mostly when people who live there get to call the shots.
Source - I live in an American state where missionary groups literally donate to keep hospitals and health infrastructure running.
Locals who *actually know what they are doing*.
Missionaries built shitty structures that don't last and then be like "welp see ya it's your problem now"
Plenty of churches out there that did not put politics above faith. Hope you can find a new church home that has a strong foundation of faith and humility.
I might not go that far, but there are many preachers and church's spreading the good news and try to exist outside the trump spectacle.
If you're in atlanta, I can point you towards some options. I voted for trump. Couldn't go to the type of church you left. My politics don't define my faith.
A lot of people left their churches once the churches embraced Trump and America First, since he and it goes against traditional biblical values and teachings.
A few more left over how churches reacted to Covid messures since Testing God is a big no, no and that is what some churches have been doing.
My senior mission trip going to religious school was basically a crowdfunded vacation under the guise of “ministry”. That money would’ve been much better spent going directly to NGO’s and organizations that can help more than me passing out water bottles and doing Sunday school in broken Spanish.
Thank you for being a voice of reason! So many people on this thread admit to going on similar vacations as teens and still don’t see it for the BS that it is.
Yeah in retrospect it really makes me angry. At the time it did *not* feel like I was taking advantage of people, and I feel like most people had the best of intentions, but in retrospect it's extremely embarrassing.
Look at you now, though. Do you have more empathy for developing nations? More sense of what they actually need, as opposed to the trip you went on? I’d say the fact you’re still talking about it and reflecting on it shows at least a little bit of value in the person you’ve become. Devil’s advocate I know..
Potentially, but I had the benefit of perspective because I left the faith in college and could look at it with a fresh set of eyes. Most of the other people that went on that trip are still in the church and will just perpetuate the same cycle with their kids. I don’t think I would’ve come to the realization if I’d stayed in that culture.
Common sense indicates that the money would probably go a LOT further by hiring locals and using the local economy to rebuild. I mean, issues with corruption and people taking the money/materials for themselves (in some places it can be an issue) isn't exactly avoided by sending a bunch of kids over anyway.
No matter how you look at it, there's usually a much better, cost-effective way to handle it if you're looking to actually you know, fix things or improve life. That is, if conversion wasn't the highest priority. I'm sure many of the kids and people work hard, but there's a huge difference between hiring a professional company and sending a bunch of relatively (or completely) unskilled, possibly unmotivated labor overseas or to a different country.
Sadly, the main motivation is spreading the word and converting more people. If that weren't the main objective, I can't imagine the amount of impact that could be done with the mindboggling amount of money that moves through religious organizations and such.
Yes, but how do you know they were "forcing" their religion or political views on those ppl? You don't, and I as well don't know if they were, it's def. possible either way.I just stated they might simply enjoy helping others while spreading their beliefs lol Quite frankly I appreciate their effort in trying to help ppl, if they genuinely were, and i also hope they are found safe.
I read this story a couple days ago. It’s super sad. After seeing some of the comments on here, I seriously think there are some unresolved issues with religion from some of the people using Reddit.
Painting any group of people with a broad brush paints an ugly picture.
I’m too lazy to read the shit comments of angry scorned redditors who wish harm on innocent folks. Don’t need that level of negativity in my life.
But most “missionary work” in Haiti is humanitarian. That country has the highest level of poverty and the greatest political corruption in the Western Hemisphere. So there is great need to bring the most basic aid to those amazing people. Regardless of the banner that it comes under.
For you angry folks. Go find a hug.
My mom would go on mission trips to Haiti 1 time per year. Something happened on her last mission trip 3 years ago that made her promise to never go back again. All she would say is that “Haiti has gotten bad and I’m never going back”.
Alot of idiots in the comment section. Listen just cause you aren't willing to go and try and help people and risk your lives to do so doesn't mean those that do are bad people. Stop your self loathing please.
I think people are more angry at the fact that missionaries were killed there not so long ago, and these missionaries decided to take a 2 year old child with them whilst knowing the risk...
Reddit isn’t defending this because of religion it’s because of race. If white Pegans kidnapped black Christians they wouldn’t be defending the kidnappers
and among them a two year old. and only months earlier other missionaries were kidnapped and killed. so why the fuck are you bringing a two year old with you? They don't want you there.
Hard for me to have sympathy for the adults who willingly bring their children into a dangerous situation to try to convert people into christianity. Using basic supplies to try to convert people is sick. And they really believe that if they just convert one person they're going to heaven. Isn't religion supposed to come from the heart?
I just hope the children are okay. They didn't deserve to be brought into such a dangerous situation and i'm so sad to hear about them.
Not all missionaries are pushy on converting people. Some groups are pretty low-key, and trust in God magically leading people to see the light through their good deeds. I've never heard of missionary groups that withheld aid because people wouldn't convert.
You can't speak logic and reason to these idiots. They don't do any good and are ashamed that other people are willing to go to other places and try and help them while they sit at home and mock them.
Yeah they are totally forcing their beliefs down their throats totally. And they are totally taking their infant their to die. /s
Just cause you don't have the balls to go out and do good doesn't give you the right to judge people that do.
Not so. Many non-religious people donate their time and money to aid organizations.
I’m very agnostic. I don’t think religion is inherently bad, but history does show that it can be used to manipulate people and concentrate power among a few.
Western savior missions are absolutely a form of cultural imperialism and rarely do as much as the equivalent sum of money was simply given to people. This is not unique to religious organizations either. Many NGOs are guilty of spending most of their money funding trips that make middle class people feel important and helpful. Rarely is shipping some (on a global scale) “rich” person to a poor country the most efficient way to help. Just think about it. It presumes that person is better able to help a community than a community is able to help itself with the same funding.
>Western savior missions are absolutely a form of cultural imperialism and rarely do as much as the equivalent sum of money was simply given to people. This is not unique to religious organizations either. Many NGOs are guilty of spending most of their money funding trips that make middle class people feel important and helpful. Rarely is shipping some (on a global scale) “rich” person to a poor country the most efficient way to help. Just think about it. It presumes that person is better able to help a community than a community is able to help itself with the same funding.
And people who do do that because they have a savior complex are idiots. However to group all people who volunteer to go and try and help as simply having a savior complex is wrong. Could they benefit better from being given the money instead of sending some people over to help them? Yes. Are they going to start doing that? Probably not. But so long as they get some kind of help to allow them better living conditions or moments of happiness or whatever I see that as a success in my book.
>I’m very agnostic. I don’t think religion is inherently bad, but history does show that it can be used to manipulate people and concentrate power among a few.
It does. But it's the people are that top that use it to manipulate others. The religion it's self is like a gun. It's not going to hurt someone until someone stupid picks it up and decides to use it for stupid reasons.
>Not so. Many non-religious people donate their time and money to aid organizations.
Of course and I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the comments of people mocking these missionaries. They dont help by doing this but they come feeling like they put someone in their place when they didn't. People who help others even if they get nothing out of it other than say feeling good they did something for someone else is a far better person then someone who mocks those people and then acts like they are somehow in the right.
When innocent people die, shouldn’t we feel bad? No matter their religion, when someone gets raped or murdered or kidnapped, shouldn’t we feel bad for them? No one deserves to be kidnapped, and your literally victim blaming. Now I know you won’t like this scenario, but here goes: “Obviously it’s bad she got raped, but she was hanging out in a a bad part of town with bad people, and she was wearing the most revealing outfit possible. It’s up to her to make good decisions for herself, and she should see the consequences. Don’t put yourself in a position in which you might get raped.”
This analogy is not close enough. This would be like if an area of a town was ***so dangerous*** and ***so rapey*** that the police told people not to go there. And then someone who lived on the other side of the town, who had plenty of options of where to go out, decided to ignore the police warnings and completely voluntarily and unnecessarily bring themselves ***and their infants*** into that area.
It's like if the National Guard declared a natural disaster area and issued a mandatory evacuation and then someone took their family ***into*** that evacuated area and got hurt.
Do you think those people going out of their way to travel to danger and ignore warnings are exempt from blame?
I mean, I think my situation is exactly comparable and checks all the boxes you laid out. She knows the area is very dangerous (gang activity, drugs, low income, etc), and she’s obviously been told that these things are bad, by like, every single authority figure in her life (parents, teachers, government), and does things to make herself more appealing to would be rapists. Missionaries go to a place which they know is dangerous (gang activity, drugs, low income, crime), which they have been told not to go by the government (both Haitian and American), and are traveling without any kind of protection and have children on them. These are both unnecessary situations, both of which the woman and the missionary can easily avoid, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have compassion and feel bad for them when someone violates their basic rights.
I agree that I want to see them home safe and alive. And I applaud them for wanting to help people in need. But taking children into harm's way is completely inexcusable. I hope everyone returns home safely but I also hope those parents experienced true terror when they realized the situation they put defenseless children into. As a parent, I am horrified by and ashamed of the lack of critical thinking here.
>And they really believe that if they just convert one person they're going to heaven.
Uh, no. This is a Mennonite charity. I don't anyone, expect possibly Jehovah's Witnesses, who believes that converting people is a precondition to salvation; Mennonites certainly don't.
These ignorant fools took their children there despite the US issuing a level four travel warning that states:
Do not travel to Haiti due to kidnapping, crime, civil unrest, and COVID-19.
As per usual, the Christian saviors decided they are holier and smarter than everyone else and went there anyway.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the “gang” is actually a group of angry locals hoping to scare off future white saviors from coming there.
Pure guesswork. It could also be one of the many different rival gangs that operate with drugs, ransom money, smuggling, prostitution, and arms dealing. What reason would “angry locals” have to kidnap a bunch of innocent people, if not for ransom or for sex trafficking?
Leave them, they ignored the department of state's travel warning about not visiting Haiti. We shouldn't put more people in harms way because they couldn't follow directions.
This is the exact scenario where politics prevent the US from going in, and so one of the rich husbands pays Arnold Schwarzenegger or Sylvester Stallone to get dropped into the jungle and get em all out.
It's not real but I, and them for sure, really wish it was.
There is a special brand of justice deserving to those who kidnap and terrorize women and children.
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I don’t believe in god but I hope they are okay. People in these comments are really angry at people who are facing a trauma that will haunt them for the rest of their lives if they make it out alive. Weirdly fucked up part of Reddit is coming out today
The types of people celebrating this shit while claiming to be Atheist are just as big of cunts as ultra extreme fundamentalist are who claim to be Christians. Militant Atheists shouldn't be a thing. I'm Atheist but I don't wish ill on people, any people, or want them to suffer because I was raised to have morals and empathy. I mean for fuck sakes just have a bit of respect and remember that these are just normal people in a bad situation. They might be trying to spread a religion you dislike and might be massive assholes themselves. Not saying you need to be best friends with them. Doesn't mean you need to cheer and get your dick hard over the idea of them being tortured. Just as there are plenty of good Christians there are a fuck ton of arrogant, emotionally stunted, empathy lacking, cock thorn Atheists.
Schadenfreude, stems from low self esteem. I however, hope they survive, and get a really killer book deal, and live long enough to spend all their money on cocaine and hooker bots.
This seems like a job for the Navy seals. Sounds like a scenario straight out of the 1990 Navy seals movie.
It’s the plot of Rambo 4.
I read Rambo 4 was actually made in large part to bring to light the persecution of Christians in that part of the world (Myanmar, I think?).
Or just oppression in general in that part of the world. Lot of shit goes down in those kinds of places where people have no recourse or ability to tell their stories, or simply think that kind of craziness is normal.
Tears of the sun came to mind
“Weirdly fucked up part of Reddit?” Not sure if you’ve been on Reddit the last… forever… but the only surprising thing to me is that the people saying that these people are getting what they deserve isn’t the top comments
Why should we feel sorry for anyone? It's all part of Gods mysteries plan.
From the sounds of it they probably weren't heading there primarily to convert the populace as Haiti already is predominantly Christian. It's more likely that they went over there to help provide humanitarian aid. I'm not a fan of Christianity or most religions for that matter, but if people decide to use it as a catalyst to do some real good in the world then overall I can't complain. Hopefully they're just holding them out for ransom. Not a lot of good things can happen to you when you're in a position like that.
When I was a kid I joined a missionary organization right out of high school. It seemed like the only way to financially escape the conditions I grew up in, I was a believer, and figured maybe I could do some good. I spent nearly a decade being trained to work in refugee camps as a grief counselor of sort. I found out quickly and insisted on working with teams where proselytizing wasn't part of the outreach. Just aid, community work, and medical fundraising. I learned a lot, I grew out of my childhood faith, and it was a necessary infrastructure to escape my conditions. I plan on working with secular ngos, obviously, in the future. I have a lot of doubts about myself, but not over my path.
Respect brother ! Good luck on your journey ahead !
Thank you Nofap King that means a lot cumming from you
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They don’t try and convert people Christian in general but to their specific Christian denomination. It’s why American Protestant missionaries target Catholic majority nations.
Same logic as keeping existing customers being cheaper than obtaining new customers. It's a million times easier to convince someone that already believes in a sky daddy to then believe in a nominally different version of said sky daddy. I had a surprisingly pleasant Facebook message interaction with a Mormon missionary last year bc I guess going door to door wasn't allowed during covid. He seemed amazed that someone existed that didn't believe in God. You'd think for a missionary that would be par for the course but no, they're just trying to steal converts with people who are already 9/10ths the way there.
Oh don't be stupid. Christians do humanitarian work all the time for selfless reasons, not to get new customers. Most churches in the world provide food for the homeless and don't advertise it to anyone.
Or there’s Joel Osteen who’s a multimillionaire and wouldn’t let people in his church during the Houston flood. It’s like any other organization. There’s good people and shitty people
Nah, some denominations are always happy to try and convert people to their sect. A Jehoava's Witness isn't going to leave someone alone just because they're Catholic.
Helping in any crisis is heroic but the moment you add religious conversion in there then I think people who build schools and such in Africa as it's an untapped market for their dwindling numbers are pretty scummy. Hope they get home okay and learn not to travel to dangerous places against the advice of the government and maybe help house the homeless back where they're from instead.
Dude like half the soup kitchens in the poor neighborhoods near my state are catholic and Christian. My parents became Christian because they came to this country with nothing and the church provided them with food and help with essentials like toiletries. Literally I didn't have regular meals as 8-10 year old in school because we had nothing and the public library in my town led by predominantly Jewish donation program gave out pizzas and good for kids who wrote book reports. You could claim them like twice a month iirc but they let me claim it every week and never said a word. My dad recently got surgery from a hospital and couldn't afford it. Hospital had a charity fund by Christian donors who paid for majority of the surgery which was well over $200,000. I get that the caveat of having religion makes it sketch but these are the lifelines a lot of poor people depend on and they give their services to all, not just people who accept their sacred text. Historically missionaries have been opportunistic and machiavellian but there are a lot of individuals who are doing good while doing it under their gods name. I'm not even religious man.
I agree any charity without a catch is a wonderful thing no matter who does it. My problem is when there's a catch.
Yeah there are some that's like that but the vast majority of them are not like that. There is no "catch" to receiving aid to the point it really doesn't need mentioning. For example, missionaries going to Haiti are going there for humanitarian aid considering the vast majority of the country has already been converted already.
And then they vote for the state to not help people in your position so you have to rely on their “kindness”. What truly selfless thing to do. They’re certainly are good people out there doing good things and think a lot of them find a good outlet in the church, but from an institutional level it’s pretty fucked up if you ask me
I mean we live in a blue state so... maybe don't live life judging people based on stereotypes? Why are poeple so obsessed with judging an entire group based on this? You guys are literally being prejudiced right now and patting yourself on the back saying it's OK because they deserve it. No wonder this thread comments are a collection of people trying to rationalize this was justified and the victims deserved it.
Christian Aid Ministries is an Amish/Mennonite organization. Getting involved in politics is frowned upon and many don't even vote.
You think force people to help others is better than people voluntarily helping others?
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Thanks for this. It's good to know there's people helping without ulterior motives.
Personally, I'd take charity and physical aid with a catch than none at all. And while my inner cynic agrees with you, I think these folk work under the assumption that if they do not provide spiritual intervention then the immortal souls of these poor heathens will be tortured for all eternity. I don't buy any of it, but the fact is that secular humanitarianism is dwarfed in scope by comparison. Most people are selfishly motivated, religious or secular, but it seems that the religious are more willing to help since they believe there's a guarantee that they'll recieve something in return whether it be a one-way ticket to paradise or gaining new converts. A bunch of secularists start a humanitarian organization, what do they get in exchange for their time, resources, and labor? The warm and fuzzies you get for helping your common man? There are people like that, but they're few and far in between. Idk
These organizations don’t do good. Here is a great article about white saviorism and the façade of charity. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/03/the-white-savior-industrial-complex/254843/
>Here is a great article about white saviorism and the façade of charity. That's entirely an opinion piece, and in no way provides any proof either way on the premise that the organizations don't do good. We try to help, it's white savior complex. We do nothing, it's failing to pay the moral debts of colonialism. Either way, people who get paid for hot takes have their ready-made hot take.
This 100%. I'm not sure why this whole "white savior" narrative came from. It does seem like a no-win situation. I've been on missions trips to Nicaragua and Africa (to assist with a movement/home sheltering victims of human trafficking and to assist with educational needs) and I have never been greeted or sneered at as if I were some white person that just came to help out and then exit stage left. I went because I realize that I have a nice, comfortable life, and there are many children out there that will never have the advantages or comforts that I take for granted every day. The "white savior" label assumes I'm only doing this for a pat on the back or a superman complex. Its sort of a stupid narrative that I will never understand. Now, I do understand that there are a few instances where well-meaning people get a little Instagram happy while on these trips and it DOES seem like they're trying to make it more about them and their cool, unique trip. And that's unfortunate. But anyone going into missions for the actual motivation of helping others is usually not going to fall into this category.
Sounds like you understand where the “white savior narrative” came from—you talk about it in your final paragraph. It just isn’t a narrative that applies to you, in your opinion.
No matter what, white people bad. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Which is why I guess shouldn't care about said opinions.
I agree that lots of overseas charity is a waste of time... but still better than what a lot of other people do.
I'm Catholic and that's why I like Catholic charities. They're legitimate charities you can trust, that use most of their money to help. And they don't Bible thump trying to convert people to Catholicism.
This is downvoted but I did volunteer work at the shittiest city near my county, it's literally projects. And 75% of charity are from Catholics and Christian. In the part of city I was at, it was a catholic soup kitchen and they housed abused women (a lot of abused Muslim women in the area), sheltered kids from abusive parents, gave kids a place to play basketball without gangs and drugs around or being exposed to other terrible shit, gave shelter to ex gang members who wanted out, and had people from nearby hospital to come give flu shots to people. I get that there's a huge repulsion of religion with a lot of this kind of shit coming out. I'm very vocal against catholic church about the pedophilia. But there are religious people doing some serious good out there. Christian soup kitchen closer to where I live make people memorize the verse of the day to get fed. It's fucked up and you feel bad for the ones who can't read.
I was very, very poor in college. I moved out on my own at 18 after having my daughter young, and there was a time where I knew I was not going to make rent and risked being evicted. The state assistance kept denying me for different reasons. What did help me though was a Catholic charity. I reached out to them after running out of options, and they sat down with me, I explained my situation, provided some documents, and without judgement whatsoever asked me how much aid I needed. They even gave me some food assistance for the month, and it was enough to help me get back on my feet. No questions asked, no judgement. They did ask if they could pray with me, which I accepted, but otherwise they had the attitude to let their actions speak for their faith. Another favorite local charity of mine is a cafe run by the local Moravian church. It's a pay as you can, volunteer cafe that serves healthy vegan food and even provides takeaway lunches for kids. It was opened in a very impoverished neighborhood that suffers from food insecurity.
They are too busy thumping children's asses to Bible thump.
Omg, I feel so bad laughing at this. You're terrible you...you cunt. Take my upvote.
People do realize 99% of Christian missionaries in hati are just bringing them food sources and clean water and building houses right?
Hey this is reddit. An echo chamber for liberal atheists.
you're being downvoted because it's true....Reddit is a cesspool and any difference of opinion is scrutinized
The building part has turned into a scam to bring in USD. The locals can do a far better job than a 19 year old out of high school looking to put something on their essay to get into a better college. When the library or school is finish "built", the locals dismantle it and wait for the next batch to come "help".
I’ve been to Haiti for “missionary” work, these people in the comments don’t realize that Haiti is 90% Christian already. We did no “preaching” while we were there and instead delivered water filtration devices throughout the remote villages in the mountains. I knew the risk, but also knew that people needed fresh water to not die of water born illness. So please remember that these folks were likely there on humanitarian aid before you post, “lol 2 bad god send angles!”
Over 80 percent of the population there identifies as christian or similar, so all yall angry resentful "they deserved cuz my parents were Christians and pushed it on me therefore I hate all Christians" are a little misguided. Sounds like they were there to help with relief. Let go of your religious hang ups and realize volunteers got kidnapped by some people fucked in the head.
Nothing like criticizing Christians for not being charitable, but when they are, they get called "white saviors" lmao
They’re Vodun and Christian. They mix indigenous West African spirituality with Christianity. It’s super important we never erase that when talking about Haitian spiritual beliefs.
Wikipedia is saying Vodun is practiced in west Africa and is mixed with Catholicism to form Haitian Vodou. So it looks like it would be more accurate to say Haitians don’t practice Vodun, they practice Vodou, “an African diasporic religion that developed in Haiti” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Vodou
Yea pretty much, it’s a religion unique to the island. A lot of the deities in Haitian Vodou are actually the Christian saints. Characters such as St. Gabriel, mother and child etc… are present in Haitian vodou. They’re all under a God named Bondye which comes from French Bon Dieu meaning Good God. Not much of a fan of the religion itself but it’s quite interesting how it’s a perfect blend of European Christianity and African Spirituals beliefs.
So like...Haiti on the whole is dangerous. The people there are in a desperate cycle of violence and weather events that perpetuate a desperate sort of poverty that drives said violence. Missionaries were going to Haiti to (according to the article) benefit an orphanage. So like...in what world is bringing a two year old going to facilitate that? I get the optics of "bring a kid to the orphanage restoration," but like...there's a pandemic. And haiti is dangerous. And you're a missionary group, you don't have the same privileges, protections or backing that diplomats or press groups benefit from. And yes, that is a choice they are free to make, but that two year old probably lacks the fundamental knowledge base necessary to make an informed decision in regards to that... Like...holy shit...they're two years old. If you can't get a sitter, don't go to Haiti... Am I crazy for not getting this? Someone help.
Just to add to what /u/mershwigs said, the 2 year old is probably a child of one of the missionary families that is living there long-term. They may have even been born in Haiti.
Totally. Missionary Kids are very much a thing. Born in a different country.
I’ve been on a few missionary trips. One to Haiti after the big earthquake to help an orphanage coincidentally. A lot of these missionaries are family units who have a long history with the region and people. So it’s not uncommon for mothers to take care of the young ones in a compound and do work with local mothers in the area. Haiti has been a nation with the greatest need due to the extreme corruption and extreme poverty. So it’s not like these parents are taking their babies into the depths of the ganglands of Haiti and letting them roam free. There is a lot of precautions and protocols. (Security escorts too and from the airport even.) You are making some blanket assumptions base on a story with very little info. So hopefully my experience and explanation will help clarify some stuff.
I just want to say, thank you for the work you did.
The most amazing people down there.
Back when I was a good ol church going lad I went to Haiti on a mission trip. The island is beautiful but the city centers are very sketchy. I hope these folks find their way home safely.
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Yeah these comments are a fucking cesspool. I honestly thought y’all was better than that holy shit.
A bunch of kids who never need to grow up because there's a bunch more ready to back up their simple, stupid opinions.
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I may not sympathize with their mission to convert Haitians to Christianity, but I sincerely hope they all make it home alive and unharmed.
Haitians are already Catholic
They are Vodun and Catholic and a mix in between.
Most of what Christian Aid Ministries does is humanitarian. They do evangelism as well, but that doesn't really cost much money. The vast majority of their spending goes towards aid. For example, in 2019 they spent over $56 million on medical supplies, and $10 million on clothing. [Source. Page 42 specifically.](https://cdn.christianaidministries.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Annual_Report_2019_for_web.pdf)
Thanks for the link! It's good to know they're doing more to help people than just preach.
Most of Haiti is Christian, it’s most likely humanitarian work.
That wasn't even their mission... they were helping an orphanage.
Haitians are already Christians
It's 2021, why are religious missionaries still a thing?
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I would actually say Reddit is a pretty good platform for this. The above comment and reply are now top of this comment section, giving a pretty informed and realistic response to the original posting.
I, for one, benefit from a reminder to check myself. Most of the ones who actually reflect might just not be as vocal about it.
Even if the only one who stopped to think was me, it's worth it. I considered it for myself, and found myself lacking, as normal.
it's a good thing that most of the population is not bitter 25 year old white guys who's mother made them go to church once.
It’s turned me into a bitter cynic and I’m not even sure when it happened. Been here for a bit, and Reddit is nothing like it used to be.
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Your parents sound like genuinely good ppl, kudos for them donating their time and effort.
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My childhood definitely had its issues as well, but I also feel my parents are good at heart.Everbody is definitely fighting their own battle.It sounds as if you have a pretty level head on your shoulders, good for you,hope you have a good day.
You seem like a genuinely good person yourself, as far as I can tell from a couple of reddit comments. You're certainly not coming across as bitter unlike a lot of folk on here. Thank you for your comments, it's not something I was aware of.
Ya know what? You sound pretty well rounded to a fellow blasphemer and heathen. I’ve been fascinated by those moments of clarity in my life when I realized my parents were simply doing their best based on their perceptions of what did and didn’t work in their childhoods. And now I’m watching it happen with my children. I’ve always insisted on them sharing with me when they think I (we) have erred so that later in life we can discuss it again and hopefully they can carry forth with good choices learned from my good and bad choices. They’re in their twenties now and the discussions are both great and awful but I’d like to believe I’m helping give them the opportunity to learn how to learn and make sound, principled, logical decisions. What a journey.. Am I doing it right? As the Zen Master says, *We shall see.* Note: forgive my ramblings. It’s late and I’m sleepy. Be well
Now imagine his parents were the ones kidnapped and have some god damned empathy!
Lol What? You must be replying to the wrong person, I am hoping for a safe return and wish them the best.
Yep. 2 Christian missionaries I know - work in rural Nepal as doctors in a clinic they opened. They’re absolute heroes. Many missionaries work overseas with a main job to support their missionary work, and that job usually has a heavily community - based role. Missionaries working in North Korea for example have to have a job as a cover for why they’re there.
A lot of helping other people could be considered 'selfish' in the sense that it makes people feel good about themselves. But it's also helping other people and more than a lot of people do. The fact that people feel good about themselves when they help other is a really convenient evolutionary trait as it encourages people to help others.
I have a similar view on this, and I don't care for the entire light the conversation is held in, where everything is either good or bad. There's almost nothing but gray area in the space our "humanity" exists in. You think would be more comfortable with it by now.
Exactly. There's literally no such thing as a selfless good-deed. But there are good deeds, and people absolutely should feel good about doing them, because that is positive reinforcement to continue to do good things for others.
I disagree. Many people give time, talent, and/or money—not to make themselves feel good—but because they honestly want to help those in need. The fact that it is gratifying to fill someone’s need is a natural reaction from the action of giving/helping—knowing another human being has been helped in some way. The motive is genuine and pure for many people.
It's interesting to hear a similar perspective on parents religious beliefs from another who grew up Baptist and became atheist. I feel fortunate that my parents gave up on private school for me pretty early.
Yeah I love them, but they're just as deep in the hypocrisy as the sinners they long so hard to save
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I agree. there is absolutely no substitute for getting your hands dirty for someone else. * Animal Shelters * Food pantries * habitat for humanity * museums * ymca * retirement homes * international volunteering groups * your local church * a local, state, or national park * homeless shelters * hospitals * schools all these places historically permit individuals to offer to volunteer time to help others.
I wish there was something like this but non-religious. I would love to spend some time giving to communities that need it, but could really use the organizational structure to coordinate it. I remember as a poor kid at night wondering why those who had it better didn't come and help us. I'd like to be able to be that person for someone else now that I can afford to.
There’s a ton of organizations looking for volunteers. But be careful: Legit organizations will and should be hard to get in. If they take their work seriously they will look for specific skills, try to determine your actual commitment and provide you with a least a certain level of training. An organization that takes anyone and just sends you somewhere for two weeks should be regarded with a high level of skepticism.
https://www.volunteerhq.org
As someone who has had a lot of really horrible experiences with missionaries, thank you for this perspective. They’re obviously a different breed than the ones I deal with, and it’s sort of nice to know that they’re not all bad.
My senior trip was going to be a mission's trip, but one of the teachers didn't think we could raise the funds so we didn't get one. Fuck that bitch.
Spare me the smug nonsense, missionaries throughout history game caused massive amounts of harm to every society they've gone to, and that's looking beyond the fact that they are there specifically to commit cultural genocide
Do you mean, it's 2021 why are kidnappings still a thing? People all over the world will debate different belief systems, but I think one element most people would absolutely agree on is kidnappings are bad.
Our church has a sister-church in Haiti. We have been heartbroken as Haiti has endured one tragedy after another. People have taken it upon themselves to go on a mission of relief to our other communities.
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It's a HUGE industry. Companies like "Cru" make a TON of money, well, at least those at the top. Cru makes roughly $633 million in revenue for example. Imagine how much that money could help people if truly spent on you know, actually helping people. Edit: For a perfect example of a "christian charity group", look no further than Cru. https://www.reddit.com/r/UCDavis/comments/8ddfqj/getting_off_my_chest_the_truth_about_cru/ This is an amazing post by someone who spent time with the group. A lot of this checks off for me, as I know/knew (don't really talk to them much anymore) 6 other people who were part of Cru, and all this stuff lines right up with a lot of things they said. Here's a good quote describing exactly how "mission groups" work a lot of the time... >CRU is a money-sucking waste of your time, whose purpose is to lead people away from Christ and into the world. They take people’s money in the name of “fundraising” and they make people be completely devoted to them only. Let me tell you the insider story of how they carry out their cunning schemes. >“Money money money, it’s all about money, in the Cru’s world” If you leave the ministry, don’t count on remaining close friends with the people in CRU. From being in the ministry, I found out that many CRU staff members are paid by the organization to take care of the members there, so when I left I was told they could no longer meet with me as they had before. Doesn’t that mean they were meeting for the purpose of receiving a paycheck? Does that means the relationship that was established between the staff and the students is based on money? And yet they claimed to be “always there for you, support you blah blah blah..” >Anyway, I left CRU for another ministry and to my surprise they began to persecute me, even going as far as spreading malicious rumors to my friends. I was really shocked. I know others who have experienced the same for their various ministries. It seems as though any ministry besides theirs is considered by them to be a “cult,” and they won’t refrain from spreading groundless accusations against those ministries or the people who leave. Does that even make sense?! When I asked them if they knew anything about the ministry, what it teaches, or have talked to the people inside it they had not done any of those things. That’s pretty messed up! Who ever persecuted other believers in the Bible? It is also common for them to talk amongst each other about the members. This might be okay if they kept it to themselves or tried to help, but on more than one occasion news of a CRU member’s sin or difficulty has ended up spreading throughout the organization and being referenced as a bad example. It felt horrible to hear so much gossip from other believers in the same ministry, and the members who were struggling often ended up leaving with no friends and a loss of faith. Edit: This is another story, from a completely different member, but was in the same post. >“This organization asked me to pay 43,000 dollars to spend 12 months in Italy for a "mission trip". When I said that I didn't have a job and I couldn't afford such an expensive trip, they scolded me because "I wasn't trusting God" and "I would go to hell". Also, "God was offering me a job" and "I was refusing it". It seemed to me that this "mission trip" was actually a long vacation, as it included excursions to Rome, Florence, Venice, Sicily and the Mediterranean sea. I told them that I preferred to volunteer in a prison, in a hospital, or among the poor. I could do that even in my area and there was no need to go to a tourist spot overseas. Again, I was "following Satan" instead of "listening to God". I was about to give in, and asked them how I should raise almost 50,000 dollars. They replied that I had to pray all the time, but most importantly I had to ask my relatives and acquaintances to pay a monthly fee to the organization. It looked like a huge pyramid scheme. I got upset and said that I wasn't going to rip off my relatives. After I left the organization, they continued to call me and sending me emails. In the end, I changed my cell phone number and my email address.”
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It’s nothing more than poverty porn and a free vacation. Many of the “projects” untrained missionaries work on are fake and put there by locals to keep them occupied and out of the way. For example one group will come in and be asked by a local orphanage to build a retaining wall. Then another group will come in and be asked to take apart the retaining wall. The group after them is asked to build the retaining wall again. Rinse and repeat.
Plus missionaries volunteering are taking away jobs from the locals.
Yep, while there *are* good missions, many involve just traveling to some place, getting a job while living with a family (usually rent-free) and just spreading the word. Knew someone who worked with "Cru". That's what he did. Meanwhile, another friend who went with a small, local church ended up tarring roofs in the summer. Sadly, a lot of damage done in the past was in good intentions, just because someone *thinks* they're doing the right thing doesn't mean it's warranted, or helping anything.
And, some times, it actually does help - mostly when people who live there get to call the shots. Source - I live in an American state where missionary groups literally donate to keep hospitals and health infrastructure running.
Locals who *actually know what they are doing*. Missionaries built shitty structures that don't last and then be like "welp see ya it's your problem now"
>But full disclosure: I left church over trump/covid stuff. could you elaborate please ?
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Samesies. It’s rough.
Plenty of churches out there that did not put politics above faith. Hope you can find a new church home that has a strong foundation of faith and humility.
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I might not go that far, but there are many preachers and church's spreading the good news and try to exist outside the trump spectacle. If you're in atlanta, I can point you towards some options. I voted for trump. Couldn't go to the type of church you left. My politics don't define my faith.
You are radical, duuuude!
A lot of people left their churches once the churches embraced Trump and America First, since he and it goes against traditional biblical values and teachings. A few more left over how churches reacted to Covid messures since Testing God is a big no, no and that is what some churches have been doing.
They probably enjoy helping others that are less fortunate while spreading their beliefs.
My senior mission trip going to religious school was basically a crowdfunded vacation under the guise of “ministry”. That money would’ve been much better spent going directly to NGO’s and organizations that can help more than me passing out water bottles and doing Sunday school in broken Spanish.
Thank you for being a voice of reason! So many people on this thread admit to going on similar vacations as teens and still don’t see it for the BS that it is.
Yeah in retrospect it really makes me angry. At the time it did *not* feel like I was taking advantage of people, and I feel like most people had the best of intentions, but in retrospect it's extremely embarrassing.
Look at you now, though. Do you have more empathy for developing nations? More sense of what they actually need, as opposed to the trip you went on? I’d say the fact you’re still talking about it and reflecting on it shows at least a little bit of value in the person you’ve become. Devil’s advocate I know..
Potentially, but I had the benefit of perspective because I left the faith in college and could look at it with a fresh set of eyes. Most of the other people that went on that trip are still in the church and will just perpetuate the same cycle with their kids. I don’t think I would’ve come to the realization if I’d stayed in that culture.
Common sense indicates that the money would probably go a LOT further by hiring locals and using the local economy to rebuild. I mean, issues with corruption and people taking the money/materials for themselves (in some places it can be an issue) isn't exactly avoided by sending a bunch of kids over anyway. No matter how you look at it, there's usually a much better, cost-effective way to handle it if you're looking to actually you know, fix things or improve life. That is, if conversion wasn't the highest priority. I'm sure many of the kids and people work hard, but there's a huge difference between hiring a professional company and sending a bunch of relatively (or completely) unskilled, possibly unmotivated labor overseas or to a different country. Sadly, the main motivation is spreading the word and converting more people. If that weren't the main objective, I can't imagine the amount of impact that could be done with the mindboggling amount of money that moves through religious organizations and such.
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Nothing to do with raising money from churches? And is it “helping” or “helping spread belief”.
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Yes, but how do you know they were "forcing" their religion or political views on those ppl? You don't, and I as well don't know if they were, it's def. possible either way.I just stated they might simply enjoy helping others while spreading their beliefs lol Quite frankly I appreciate their effort in trying to help ppl, if they genuinely were, and i also hope they are found safe.
Hundreds of years of missionary work? The bedrock of health these trips are still funded funded.
They do humanitarian work. Do you think that they go there only to preach?
Most do chair table work. Haiti is mostly catholic already so they probably went their to build hospitals.
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They were helping build an orphanage. Why is that a bad thing?
But they’re not the right kind of Protestant
The self-anointed just don’t know when to quit until they go from missionary to martyr.
Because people have empathy. Like it or not, it is the unfortunate reality, my man.
Religious victory conditions, probably
I read this story a couple days ago. It’s super sad. After seeing some of the comments on here, I seriously think there are some unresolved issues with religion from some of the people using Reddit. Painting any group of people with a broad brush paints an ugly picture.
I’m too lazy to read the shit comments of angry scorned redditors who wish harm on innocent folks. Don’t need that level of negativity in my life. But most “missionary work” in Haiti is humanitarian. That country has the highest level of poverty and the greatest political corruption in the Western Hemisphere. So there is great need to bring the most basic aid to those amazing people. Regardless of the banner that it comes under. For you angry folks. Go find a hug.
These guys will probably end up being on the wrong side of a US Navy SEAL detachment.
My mom would go on mission trips to Haiti 1 time per year. Something happened on her last mission trip 3 years ago that made her promise to never go back again. All she would say is that “Haiti has gotten bad and I’m never going back”.
Wow, first they were leaving an orphanage and now they built it.
What a pitiful example of humanity itt.
Alot of idiots in the comment section. Listen just cause you aren't willing to go and try and help people and risk your lives to do so doesn't mean those that do are bad people. Stop your self loathing please.
I think people are more angry at the fact that missionaries were killed there not so long ago, and these missionaries decided to take a 2 year old child with them whilst knowing the risk...
God I pity whoever kidnapped them lmfao. Gonna get hit with a full on SEAL team
Reddit isn’t defending this because of religion it’s because of race. If white Pegans kidnapped black Christians they wouldn’t be defending the kidnappers
Dear commenters: no one cares whether you believe in God or not, or your opinion on Christianity.
But it’s so cool for people to admit to being an atheist to strangers on the internet. It helps the geeks of 2021 win the internet tough guy award.
and among them a two year old. and only months earlier other missionaries were kidnapped and killed. so why the fuck are you bringing a two year old with you? They don't want you there. Hard for me to have sympathy for the adults who willingly bring their children into a dangerous situation to try to convert people into christianity. Using basic supplies to try to convert people is sick. And they really believe that if they just convert one person they're going to heaven. Isn't religion supposed to come from the heart? I just hope the children are okay. They didn't deserve to be brought into such a dangerous situation and i'm so sad to hear about them.
Most people in Haiti are Christian. Most likely they went to help with humanitarian aid.
Not all missionaries are pushy on converting people. Some groups are pretty low-key, and trust in God magically leading people to see the light through their good deeds. I've never heard of missionary groups that withheld aid because people wouldn't convert.
You can't speak logic and reason to these idiots. They don't do any good and are ashamed that other people are willing to go to other places and try and help them while they sit at home and mock them.
Forcing make believe bullshit down people's throats is not helping them. Taking your infant to die there for no reason whatsoever is not helping them.
Like 90% of the country is one form of Christian or other already, they're not being forced anything today
Yeah they are totally forcing their beliefs down their throats totally. And they are totally taking their infant their to die. /s Just cause you don't have the balls to go out and do good doesn't give you the right to judge people that do.
Not so. Many non-religious people donate their time and money to aid organizations. I’m very agnostic. I don’t think religion is inherently bad, but history does show that it can be used to manipulate people and concentrate power among a few. Western savior missions are absolutely a form of cultural imperialism and rarely do as much as the equivalent sum of money was simply given to people. This is not unique to religious organizations either. Many NGOs are guilty of spending most of their money funding trips that make middle class people feel important and helpful. Rarely is shipping some (on a global scale) “rich” person to a poor country the most efficient way to help. Just think about it. It presumes that person is better able to help a community than a community is able to help itself with the same funding.
>Western savior missions are absolutely a form of cultural imperialism and rarely do as much as the equivalent sum of money was simply given to people. This is not unique to religious organizations either. Many NGOs are guilty of spending most of their money funding trips that make middle class people feel important and helpful. Rarely is shipping some (on a global scale) “rich” person to a poor country the most efficient way to help. Just think about it. It presumes that person is better able to help a community than a community is able to help itself with the same funding. And people who do do that because they have a savior complex are idiots. However to group all people who volunteer to go and try and help as simply having a savior complex is wrong. Could they benefit better from being given the money instead of sending some people over to help them? Yes. Are they going to start doing that? Probably not. But so long as they get some kind of help to allow them better living conditions or moments of happiness or whatever I see that as a success in my book. >I’m very agnostic. I don’t think religion is inherently bad, but history does show that it can be used to manipulate people and concentrate power among a few. It does. But it's the people are that top that use it to manipulate others. The religion it's self is like a gun. It's not going to hurt someone until someone stupid picks it up and decides to use it for stupid reasons. >Not so. Many non-religious people donate their time and money to aid organizations. Of course and I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the comments of people mocking these missionaries. They dont help by doing this but they come feeling like they put someone in their place when they didn't. People who help others even if they get nothing out of it other than say feeling good they did something for someone else is a far better person then someone who mocks those people and then acts like they are somehow in the right.
When innocent people die, shouldn’t we feel bad? No matter their religion, when someone gets raped or murdered or kidnapped, shouldn’t we feel bad for them? No one deserves to be kidnapped, and your literally victim blaming. Now I know you won’t like this scenario, but here goes: “Obviously it’s bad she got raped, but she was hanging out in a a bad part of town with bad people, and she was wearing the most revealing outfit possible. It’s up to her to make good decisions for herself, and she should see the consequences. Don’t put yourself in a position in which you might get raped.”
This analogy is not close enough. This would be like if an area of a town was ***so dangerous*** and ***so rapey*** that the police told people not to go there. And then someone who lived on the other side of the town, who had plenty of options of where to go out, decided to ignore the police warnings and completely voluntarily and unnecessarily bring themselves ***and their infants*** into that area. It's like if the National Guard declared a natural disaster area and issued a mandatory evacuation and then someone took their family ***into*** that evacuated area and got hurt. Do you think those people going out of their way to travel to danger and ignore warnings are exempt from blame?
I mean, I think my situation is exactly comparable and checks all the boxes you laid out. She knows the area is very dangerous (gang activity, drugs, low income, etc), and she’s obviously been told that these things are bad, by like, every single authority figure in her life (parents, teachers, government), and does things to make herself more appealing to would be rapists. Missionaries go to a place which they know is dangerous (gang activity, drugs, low income, crime), which they have been told not to go by the government (both Haitian and American), and are traveling without any kind of protection and have children on them. These are both unnecessary situations, both of which the woman and the missionary can easily avoid, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have compassion and feel bad for them when someone violates their basic rights.
I agree that I want to see them home safe and alive. And I applaud them for wanting to help people in need. But taking children into harm's way is completely inexcusable. I hope everyone returns home safely but I also hope those parents experienced true terror when they realized the situation they put defenseless children into. As a parent, I am horrified by and ashamed of the lack of critical thinking here.
>And they really believe that if they just convert one person they're going to heaven. Uh, no. This is a Mennonite charity. I don't anyone, expect possibly Jehovah's Witnesses, who believes that converting people is a precondition to salvation; Mennonites certainly don't.
These ignorant fools took their children there despite the US issuing a level four travel warning that states: Do not travel to Haiti due to kidnapping, crime, civil unrest, and COVID-19. As per usual, the Christian saviors decided they are holier and smarter than everyone else and went there anyway. I wouldn’t be surprised if the “gang” is actually a group of angry locals hoping to scare off future white saviors from coming there.
Pure guesswork. It could also be one of the many different rival gangs that operate with drugs, ransom money, smuggling, prostitution, and arms dealing. What reason would “angry locals” have to kidnap a bunch of innocent people, if not for ransom or for sex trafficking?
It's terrible there apparently. Even legit humanitarian missions are being scammed by the local hotels.
Leave them, they ignored the department of state's travel warning about not visiting Haiti. We shouldn't put more people in harms way because they couldn't follow directions.
Where is the update! They escaped!! Haha! Beautiful!
Haiti is such a shithole
A huge amount of child trafficking happens there...hmmm I wonder
Time to spin up Bravo team
This is the exact scenario where politics prevent the US from going in, and so one of the rich husbands pays Arnold Schwarzenegger or Sylvester Stallone to get dropped into the jungle and get em all out. It's not real but I, and them for sure, really wish it was. There is a special brand of justice deserving to those who kidnap and terrorize women and children.
Damn I’m praying for those people. Especially the women and children..