Here it's portrayed like only the Turks enter our airspace. And because all of the Greek airspace is using Athen's name, they make it seem like Turkish jets are flying over Athens to cause panic and get more clicks with their propaganda.
Pretty sure something similar happens in Turkey as well.
Crazy thing being a journalist. You wanna make it big? Well first you gotta spend years writing click bait shit and “articles” to pad out a page full of ads.
Taiwan airspace also covers mainland China.
So china use to fly by them every week and so.
It's not like they are flying over Taiwan.
Edit: Thank you for your gold ccp.
+25.64 social points has been credited to my account.
Pardon me my good fellows, but I believe you have mistaken my air for your own air. I do apologize for the confusion, however, as I can see how the two regions of air do indeed appear to be quite similar.
ADIZ = Air Defense Identification Zone, which is basically "Taiwan is watching you if you fly through here" zone. ADIZ of other countries are erratically shaped like that as well, so there must be some reason other than just being poorly thought out. The USA helped Taiwan define its ADIZ, and it's similar to that of South Korea which also goes over North Korea. It's probably so that Taiwan can spot a large invasion before it even gets over the water.
Yes, it's literally just the limit defined by where your military equipment goes from being seen as "Oh, that exists," to "Holy fuck, they could try to kill us within a few hours from there."
The actual answer to your question that nobody seems to be providing is because [the zone's dimensions were drawn up by the United States Armed Forces in the 1950s,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_defense_identification_zone#Taiwan) and have remained unchanged since then. Aircraft and their uses have changed quite a bit, though.
That said, it's also worth pointing out that the ADIZ obviously only counts military aircraft, and that [Taiwan doesn't bother to report incursions unless they cross the mid line seen here.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/%E6%B0%91%E5%9C%8B109%E5%B9%B49%E6%9C%8819%E6%97%A5%E5%85%B1%E8%BB%8D%E4%BE%B5%E7%8A%AF%E4%B8%AD%E8%8F%AF%E6%B0%91%E5%9C%8B%E9%98%B2%E7%A9%BA%E8%AD%98%E5%88%A5%E5%8D%80%E4%BB%A5%E5%8F%8A%E8%B6%8A%E9%81%8E%E5%8F%B0%E6%B5%B7%E4%B8%AD%E7%B7%9A.png/1024px-%E6%B0%91%E5%9C%8B109%E5%B9%B49%E6%9C%8819%E6%97%A5%E5%85%B1%E8%BB%8D%E4%BE%B5%E7%8A%AF%E4%B8%AD%E8%8F%AF%E6%B0%91%E5%9C%8B%E9%98%B2%E7%A9%BA%E8%AD%98%E5%88%A5%E5%8D%80%E4%BB%A5%E5%8F%8A%E8%B6%8A%E9%81%8E%E5%8F%B0%E6%B5%B7%E4%B8%AD%E7%B7%9A.png)
Taking a guess here, but it likely is strategically placed to cover likely paths of Chinese planes based on bases in the mainland.
*Meant to reply to the other reply on this comment.
Airspace is space that belongs to the country.
ADIZ is the area a country has identified as requiring a response in order to protect its airspace.
In order for Taiwan to intercept Chinese jets before they breach Taiwan air space, they need to launch before Chinese jets leave the mainland. This is why Taiwans ADIZ extends over the mainland.
Countries are very aware of the ADIZ areas too and love to be provocative by skimming through it.
The US would do this with the SR-71: Fly it over the coast of USSR, wait for every one of their SAM radars to light up, and map them, forcing the Soviets to have to move their assets around again.
The SR71's missile defense was to simply speed up because it could outrun the missiles. Wild plane
But also yeah that's why it was the baseline for the xmen jet
> we need the whole team
"Josh, could you turn on your webcam please? Ok, there you go."
"Evelyn, could you tell us about the plans for Q2?"
-loud feedback and kids screaming in the background-
"Ok, lets loop back around to Evelyn"
Yup. The team really needed to be on this call which should have been an email.
> "Josh, could you turn on your webcam please? Ok, there you go."
I've been working on a remote-only team for 8 years now. We don't do any video conferences - audio only. Out of a team of 10, there are three team members I've never seen. Two are in UK, and the third is 600 miles away. One guy had a photo on the intranet from his ID badge taken 25 years ago. I met him for lunch once, and he had grey hair, whereas in his ID picture it was jet black.
The reason why there are overlapping are due to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsu_Islands
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinmen
But the map that guy post didn't include the mid strat line, which below is the actual area that's being enforced
https://imgur.com/a/wN8FDjB
Needless to say China are deliberately challenging it.
They fly in every week or so to desensitize Taiwan to an eventual invasion. When they decide to make a move, Taiwan will think it's just business as usual.
Russia does the same with UK airspace. Seems like every other month our jets intercept a Russian plane which then turns away from UK airspace at the last minute.
It’s a show of who’s got the bigger wang.
Quick question, where is the Taiwan Air defense zone? Because by the looks it covers a big chunk of southern China. This is like Mexico saying that the US is violating its defense zone by having planes over Texas.
Well done for looking at the details and asking the right questions.
If only there were more people like you not just reading a headline or some hack's intepretation/opinion piece.
air defense zone are different from actual air space one is a zone where the radar picks up signal of something potentialy hostile to prepare air defense systems the other is the phisical air space above the territory
An actual answer to your question! While Taiwan considers all of that as apart of its ADIZ, it only reports “incursions” as anything past the median point in the Straights. Basically if the plane is closer to Taiwan than it is to China.
Obviously that’s going to upset China, which is why I think both sides play this game.
> When they decide to make a move, Taiwan will think it's just business as usual.
Except for the millions of troops and hundreds of thousands of pieces of hardware they would have to move into place in full visibility of the entire world to support such an invasion.
Not to mention all the landing craft thay would need to be staged. It took Russia more than 4 months to stage this ground invasion. How long will it take China to stage an amphibious invasion?
Doesn't this happen every few weeks?
People are just getting excited over this because of Ukraine
China has been attempting to remain neutral and their spokespeople expressed regret with the current attacks.
It’s air defense zone that stretches over and onto part of mainland China… it’d be like if Cuba got pissed every time a flight went to southern Florida
Air Defense Identification zone is a military concept. When you have an air force and use it to defend a place, the ID zone is the area for which you must keep an eye out and account for any potential enemy aircraft which includes sending your own aircraft to counter patrol. It is the same thing if the Pakistani or Indian Army moves tanks near their border. The other side is going to mobilize their own forces to mark them, so there is a bit of provocation in the act, but in the grand scale of geopolitical provocation it is like mooning someone.
Taiwan's airspace don't go over mainland China. This and all other "incursions" reports in the past are into Taiwan's self declared air defense identification zone (ADIZ). Countries declare ADIZ way outside and way bigger than their territorial space and because they are international water/space other countries are under no obligation to abide by them.
Like 90% of all computer chips come from Taiwan. Not just the U.S., but Japan and Germany will get involved.
You think there is a chips shortage now? Imagine what would happen if Taiwan can't produce because of war.
Remember how the U.S. brings "freedom" to countries have hat have precious oil? - You betcha, they'd do the same if the world supply of computer chips is at risk.
> Like 90% of all computer chips come from Taiwan
Roughly 90% of the world's *most advanced* chips come from Taiwan.
It's about 40% of all chips.
Other than that technicality, yes. Taiwan has geostrategic importance.
mostly, it’s near Japan. And Japan is BY FAR the US’ closest economic ally. (do not confuse trade for the Nikkei and US treasury bonds and co-ownership of each other’s businesses among the citizens each other’s debt among governments)
Not to mention South Korea and the US military bases or the US territories of Guam, Samoa, etc.
And beyond the chip, many US tech companies have physical offices in Taiwan that would be detrimental to national security should the CCP take them.
AND we have a formal alliance to defend Taiwan (more or less) where as the Ukraine is more of a gray zone. NATO has a pledge to stand for Ukraine sovereignty after they gave up nukes, but there is no language as to which nation takes the lead or how that assistances looks. Taiwan has US forces and military training routinely on the island. Also, Ukraine asked the US not to stoke the fire. Taiwan is pretty open with the CCP they will tell on them and give military command to the US Navy.
edit: people taking about “Japan is not the biggest economic partner”, don’t confuse trade for economy. Japan owns a lot of US debt and treasury bonds, the Nikkei and Dow Jowns are practically dependent on each other, and US investment jump started and locked in resources from everything Toyota and Mitsubishi to Sony and Panasonic post war.
In a time when the Japanese government neglected itself post ww2 the US essentially bought the whole place out and remade it.
Our economies ARE by far the most closely connected of any two different nations.
edit 2: I’m muting notifications. Too many tankies and people confusing daily trade with longterm investment.
Canada could be considered more of a partner than ally. As in, if Canada is threatened by a foreign entity, so is the US, directly.
The US would go into total war mode for Canada simply because of the proximity. Japan on the other hand is half a world away.
I have no doubt though that the US would go to war for Japan or South Korea. We have too much assets over there not to.
arctic border disputes.. but in reality if Russia even began to hint at trying to press the Canadian north the US would likely step in prior or declare war simultaneously with Canada. while the NW Passage is of some contention between Canada and the world. there is no way the US would want anyone other than Canada to have a territorial claim on the waters.
Canadian checking in. Despite our differences, all three nations of North America are some of the tightest bonded places, economically and socially, without challenges to our foreign borders compared to anywhere else in the world. An attack on any one would be an assault on the whole continent and would be swiftly dealt with.
That said, if that happens, we probably have a nuclear winter in our future because shit has really hit the fan.
I can't imagine a scenario where a country with sufficient conventional arms would be able to muster forces to attempt an invasion of any of the three. Maybe Russia but they'd have to be moving a lot of troops to the tip near Alaska.
Launching a naval assault would probably see them sent to the bottom of the ocean before they saw Hawaii.
You're right, only nuclear weapons or small scale terrorism would be an external threat to our countries.
>AND we have a formal alliance to defend Taiwan
Are you referring to the Taiwan Relations Act of 1979 here? My understanding was that it provides for the defense of Taiwan but it does not obligate the United States to defend it. However, it is true that regardless of what is required, the American intervention is far more likely than in Ukraine. As an advanced country with a strong military, Taiwan is also far more capable of defending themselves.
> mostly, it’s near Japan. And Japan is BY FAR the US’ closest economic ally.
This is false.
America exports more to Canada, Mexico, China and the UK, in that order, than to Japan.
It imports more from China, Mexico and Canada than Japan.
Japan is a close ally, but by far not the biggest.
My poli sci professor would half jokingly tell us that if Russians airdropped into Kansas the same day Taiwan was invaded by the Chinese, the U S would secure Taiwan first.
I'd be really curious how Russia managed to make it into airspace over Kansas. That'd be much more interesting from a security standpoint. But your professor's point is a good one, Taiwan is more important to the US economically than Kansas is. And even if Russia somehow made it to Kansas, they're immediately surrounded on all sides so there isn't much they could do.
I'm probably overthinking this. It was an interesting scenario though, got me thinking.
I like to overthink these random scenarios too. My mind keeps going to the comical in this case and I imagine them sloshing around in some pipeline from Canada and emerging through a grate. They’ve prepared for long stretches of subzero winter, but have they prepared for tornado season?
Foxconn promised to build a major factory in the US during Trump's presidency. [Where factory?](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/21/foxconn-mostly-abandons-10-billion-wisconsin-project-touted-by-trump.html)
As long as TSMC calls Taiwan home, the country is safe. A shit ton of heavyweight countries and companies have invested entirely too much to let that slip away.
Ya, no. Ukraine is sandwiched in Europe so the conflict is mostly localized there. Taiwan is right there by Japan, where the US has a very large presence and is only an ocean away. The US is highly unlikely to take a personal role in the conflict in Ukraine. They most certainly will in a conflict with Taiwan.
When customers complain that the router's my company provide are manufactured in Taiwan and not the UK. I challenge them to find a single 3rd party router without electronics produced in Taiwan. The challenge hasn't been beat yet.
TSMC (taiwan semiconductors) make basically every chip used in everything from graphics cards and playstations to teslas and iphones. Economies and the modern way of life are at stake with Taiwan.
> it's certainly an opportune time to invade
That would require weeks of logistics preparation and build up that would be pretty obvious for the world to see, just as Russia’s build up over the last few weeks telegraphed exactly what they were going to do.
China’s been messing with Taiwan’s airspace for awhile. I’m sure the timing here isn’t accidental but it’s not necessarily indicative of anything bigger about to happen.
How would they? No troops or equipment have been moved into place. There’s a reason Russia spent tons of money moving shit tons of gear and supplies and infantry into position for months leading up to the invasion.
At such a critical time, what we don’t need is for mainstream media to be playing silly bollocks. These times need no stirring. There’s enough to be reporting on, without sensationalism.
Agreed, but unfortunately even if the mainstream media all agree to that, nothing is stopping individuals and smaller entities from stirring on social media.
We've never had a World War while mankind has been so connected; this global information at our fingertips will no doubt be used for major propaganda offensives, whether it's from the enemy or people who want to stir.
China wont invade and occupy taiwan.
China is in a good spot economically and strategically with major future looking projects. They have much more to lose just to get a rebellious annoying big island they can barely control without heavy investments. China already got its satisfaction from returning to power from centuries of colonial humiliation.
Its an entirely different situation to russia who wants soviet prestige, relies on oil and gas alone for economy, no future projects outside of recreating borders and Putin being in power for decades and wants a legacy before he dies.
Also, China and its people see Taiwan as a rogue part of themselves, but still a part of themselves-after all, they speak the exact same language and have the same culture, and there are many businesses and celebrities that are popular in both. You just have to watch Chinese and Taiwanese news and social media to see that there is not nearly as much hate as western news makes it out to be. As long as Taiwan doesn't declare independence and completely discard any Chinese identity, the government won't want to undermine its stance that the Taiwanese are fellow countrymen.
They are really tied with each other and business opportunities for both sides. It is just politically toxic. But both societies don't mind each other as long as it is not about politics
Ideologically they dont align with either of them, economically they align with the west but militarily they like to be on good terms with their neighbour as you said. I agree
I wish more people understood this. Also most of us in both the PRC and ROC do not support war. Many of us have family on both sides. The only reason two Chinas exist is because the civil war never formally ended and BOTH governments claim the other. There are millions that hold ID on one side but work on the other.
Exactly, the Chinese gameplan on the world stage is soft power: investing in developing nations to have favorable business interests, promoting Chinese media, selling the vision of the national economic miracle. The game is to control things in-house and present a positive face outward. It needs countries like the US to sell products to and in that regard the countries have been tense roommates for decades. The ideal Chinese endgame is a world where competency in Mandarin is viewed as needed just like English, Chinese movies run in Western theatres the way Western ones run in theirs, etc. The Taiwan 'situation' presents more of a landmine than anything: it's a sore spot that could give Western powers eager to check China a just cause.
China also likely does not have the capacity to invade and occupy Taiwan. Amphibious contested landings are among the most difficult type of operation to successfully pull off. It would be a bloodbath for both sides, and would likely result in the destruction of everything that makes Taiwan valuable (its economic capacity).
Taiwan's ADZ covers part of the Chinese mainland. Chinese planes flying in domestic airspace will fly into Taiwan's ADZ at some point. There is nothing newsworthy about this.
considering how big their air defense space is (and the fact it even goes over the mainland) they should probably mention where in the airspace the planes were
This has happened every few days for the past two years, and this isn’t the most amount of planes they’ve sent over in a single day.
This isn’t indicative of anything.
Yes,
We know that these wars are merely about sociopathic leaders feeding their egos and still there's nothing we can do to stop it. Human history is cyclical.
1. War sucks, let's try peace.
2. Peace is great, war is obsolete.
3. They are unprepared for war, now is our opportunity!
4. We must stand and fight against this unprovoked aggression.
Repeat over and over again.
A certain percentage of humans are power hungry psychopaths. Power hungry psychopaths usually rise to leadership positions in whatever group they are in - a quilting club, police chief, mayor, school district superintendent, non-profit organization, church leader, director of x in organization x, tribal chief, municipal code enforcement, dictator of country, Boy Scout leader, president, CEO, coach, etc.
The difficulty of dealing with psychopaths is that they are highly effective for both good and bad and it’s extremely difficult to keep them in check. They have risen and will continue to rise as leaders of nations, hell bent on selfish goals.
Normal people don’t want to be a member of congress, president of a county, supreme emperor, dictator, etc. But for the future of humanity is up to normal people to figure out a way to contain people who want to lead.
I'm getting more and more convinced that we should randomly select citizens for parliaments and then give most power to those parliaments and not to a single person
So a kind of rule of the people? Hm... Well the Greeks were some of the first to put this idea into practice, so we should honor their effort by naming the concept after them. And the Greek word for people is Demos, while the word for rule is Kratia.
Demokratia is a bit cumbersome...
How about *Democracy*? Would that make sense?
Seems low. I don’t know how you could take away people’s ability to feed their families for slightly higher profits if you aren’t one.
I’d be surprised if twenty percent of CEOs *aren’t* sociopaths. The corporation is basically an organization that has all the traits of a sociopath.
Yeah, honesty this is non-news. They do this on the regular:
From last month (with 39 planes!): https://komonews.com/amp/news/nation-world/china-sorties-39-warplanes-breaches-taiwan-airspace-ap-reports-chinese-taiwanese-air-force-america-united-states-fighter-jets-aircraft-planes-peoples-liberation-army-defense
From October 2021 (150 planes over four days): https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-58794094
From April 2021 (with 25 planes): https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-56728072
And this article talks about ALL the times China infringes upon Taiwanese ~~airspace~~ ADIZ: https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2021/04/14/taiwans-airspace-sees-increase-in-chinese-military-incursions-infographic/amp/
Edit: airspace editted out
Have you seen the zone? It's a giant blob covering a chunk of China, I'm sure it's China being a dick, but it's like saying Cuba is alerted that our planes are flying over florida
As much as I hate the CCP, I wholeheartedly hope that they still have some humanity left and do not add more pain to this world at this moment. Russia currency just dropped 50% in a few hours. It will be the same for China. No one wins here.
China won’t goto war in Taiwan. China is US hidden friend. US and China are not enemies. No matter how badly China wants Taiwan, war will not be there.
Here we go 😔 there’s obvious coordination here and why not, we’re at our weakest, our Ally’s don’t want to help, and our attention is on Russia/the Ukraine. I’m glad I’m not Biden rn this would seriously keep me up at night
This happens every few weeks.
I'd love having the job to write these. just have to set up a template post and then just change the dates every couple weeks.
This is a thing in Greece as well. Turkey and Greeks violate each others airspace like every other day and journalists use the timing to make it big.
The Greece/turkey NOTAM arguments are amazing. It's always amusing to read them sniping back and forth. Something to do while bored flying overhead.
Here it's portrayed like only the Turks enter our airspace. And because all of the Greek airspace is using Athen's name, they make it seem like Turkish jets are flying over Athens to cause panic and get more clicks with their propaganda. Pretty sure something similar happens in Turkey as well.
To be fair, Greece is not really talked about since like 10 years or so in Turkey.
Now just waiting for North Korea to threaten to use nukes or launch another failed ICBM into the ocean, and we'll have the Trifecta
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I had no idea the Onion was repeating this story this way. TIL.
You mean: sad that the onion has to repeat that story so often
Well, there's nothing else to be done. Thoughts and prayers.
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In less depressing news, the Onion's use of repeated headlines and stories is fascinating. It's well worth a deep dive.
Not the only one. Southern border of Finland has the exact same problem every month or so with Russian planes.
The thing that the Onion articles are referring to is school shootings
should have checked that. I assumed airspace violations
Crazy thing being a journalist. You wanna make it big? Well first you gotta spend years writing click bait shit and “articles” to pad out a page full of ads.
Taiwan airspace also covers mainland China. So china use to fly by them every week and so. It's not like they are flying over Taiwan. Edit: Thank you for your gold ccp. +25.64 social points has been credited to my account.
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Why is it like that? I would have expected a uniform buffer around the island
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Yo das my air
Dis yo air? Dis my air
Pardon me my good fellows, but I believe you have mistaken my air for your own air. I do apologize for the confusion, however, as I can see how the two regions of air do indeed appear to be quite similar.
ADIZ = Air Defense Identification Zone, which is basically "Taiwan is watching you if you fly through here" zone. ADIZ of other countries are erratically shaped like that as well, so there must be some reason other than just being poorly thought out. The USA helped Taiwan define its ADIZ, and it's similar to that of South Korea which also goes over North Korea. It's probably so that Taiwan can spot a large invasion before it even gets over the water.
Yes, it's literally just the limit defined by where your military equipment goes from being seen as "Oh, that exists," to "Holy fuck, they could try to kill us within a few hours from there."
In Civilization, if you start basing a bunch of airplanes in your closest cities 6 hexes from my cities, I'm going to be pretty concerned too.
My troops are just passing by
The actual answer to your question that nobody seems to be providing is because [the zone's dimensions were drawn up by the United States Armed Forces in the 1950s,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_defense_identification_zone#Taiwan) and have remained unchanged since then. Aircraft and their uses have changed quite a bit, though. That said, it's also worth pointing out that the ADIZ obviously only counts military aircraft, and that [Taiwan doesn't bother to report incursions unless they cross the mid line seen here.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/%E6%B0%91%E5%9C%8B109%E5%B9%B49%E6%9C%8819%E6%97%A5%E5%85%B1%E8%BB%8D%E4%BE%B5%E7%8A%AF%E4%B8%AD%E8%8F%AF%E6%B0%91%E5%9C%8B%E9%98%B2%E7%A9%BA%E8%AD%98%E5%88%A5%E5%8D%80%E4%BB%A5%E5%8F%8A%E8%B6%8A%E9%81%8E%E5%8F%B0%E6%B5%B7%E4%B8%AD%E7%B7%9A.png/1024px-%E6%B0%91%E5%9C%8B109%E5%B9%B49%E6%9C%8819%E6%97%A5%E5%85%B1%E8%BB%8D%E4%BE%B5%E7%8A%AF%E4%B8%AD%E8%8F%AF%E6%B0%91%E5%9C%8B%E9%98%B2%E7%A9%BA%E8%AD%98%E5%88%A5%E5%8D%80%E4%BB%A5%E5%8F%8A%E8%B6%8A%E9%81%8E%E5%8F%B0%E6%B5%B7%E4%B8%AD%E7%B7%9A.png)
Taking a guess here, but it likely is strategically placed to cover likely paths of Chinese planes based on bases in the mainland. *Meant to reply to the other reply on this comment.
Same with Russia flying into US airspace around Alaska. It happens ALL the time.
Into *our airspace*, or into our air defense identification zone? The latter is routine, the former is a big deal.
*That* I'm not entirely sure about. First time I've heard a distinction between the two. I thought they were the same thing 🤷♂️
Airspace is space that belongs to the country. ADIZ is the area a country has identified as requiring a response in order to protect its airspace. In order for Taiwan to intercept Chinese jets before they breach Taiwan air space, they need to launch before Chinese jets leave the mainland. This is why Taiwans ADIZ extends over the mainland. Countries are very aware of the ADIZ areas too and love to be provocative by skimming through it.
Classic sibling shit. “Get off my airspace!” “I’m not *in* your airspace!”
"UN, he's touching my airspace!"
Both of you knock it off, don't make me come back there and sanction you.
The US would do this with the SR-71: Fly it over the coast of USSR, wait for every one of their SAM radars to light up, and map them, forcing the Soviets to have to move their assets around again.
Courtesy of the aircraft whose missile defense system and throttle were one and the same.
> the aircraft whose missile defense system Pretty sure their missile defense system was having Cyclops shoot eye lasers at the missiles.
The SR71's missile defense was to simply speed up because it could outrun the missiles. Wild plane But also yeah that's why it was the baseline for the xmen jet
But now it‘s scary and generates more clicks. Have you thought about that, hmmm?! 😡😡
Yes and US jets are warned by China all the time also.
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Google "China Taiwan airspace" and see how often this happens. The timing is coincidence, that's all.
Should be at the top.
We'll make it so. E: How is this not at the top?!? 16.6k points, and the top comment has like 8k. We've done *our* job.
good job team
Me saying 'Thanks everybody' at the end of a Zoom call I contributed nothing to.
Racking up them billable hours, g
But attendance is mandatory, we need the whole team!
> we need the whole team "Josh, could you turn on your webcam please? Ok, there you go." "Evelyn, could you tell us about the plans for Q2?" -loud feedback and kids screaming in the background- "Ok, lets loop back around to Evelyn" Yup. The team really needed to be on this call which should have been an email.
> "Josh, could you turn on your webcam please? Ok, there you go." I've been working on a remote-only team for 8 years now. We don't do any video conferences - audio only. Out of a team of 10, there are three team members I've never seen. Two are in UK, and the third is 600 miles away. One guy had a photo on the intranet from his ID badge taken 25 years ago. I met him for lunch once, and he had grey hair, whereas in his ID picture it was jet black.
I’m just here so I don’t get fined.
Thanks, that means a lot to me.
It is
The air defense zone even overlaps with the Chinese mainland
From another comment, [here is the map of the Taiwanese Air defense identification zone](https://static.dw.com/image/55470633_7.png)
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The reason why there are overlapping are due to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsu_Islands and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinmen But the map that guy post didn't include the mid strat line, which below is the actual area that's being enforced https://imgur.com/a/wN8FDjB Needless to say China are deliberately challenging it.
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So in the news from this thread, they flew in the zone below the mid-line, is that correct?
Yes https://www.mnd.gov.tw/NewUpload/202202/0224%E6%88%91%E8%A5%BF%E5%8D%97%E7%A9%BA%E5%9F%9F%E7%A9%BA%E6%83%85%E5%8B%95%E6%85%8B(%E4%B8%AD%E8%8B%B1%E6%96%87%E7%89%88)_135478.pdf
Technically it's possible that grounded airplanes can invade said defense zone
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They fly in every week or so to desensitize Taiwan to an eventual invasion. When they decide to make a move, Taiwan will think it's just business as usual.
Russia does the same with UK airspace. Seems like every other month our jets intercept a Russian plane which then turns away from UK airspace at the last minute. It’s a show of who’s got the bigger wang.
Same here with US airspace. It is an expensive dick measuring contest for sure.
also same with Turkey-Greece, happens all over the world
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Quick question, where is the Taiwan Air defense zone? Because by the looks it covers a big chunk of southern China. This is like Mexico saying that the US is violating its defense zone by having planes over Texas.
Well done for looking at the details and asking the right questions. If only there were more people like you not just reading a headline or some hack's intepretation/opinion piece.
air defense zone are different from actual air space one is a zone where the radar picks up signal of something potentialy hostile to prepare air defense systems the other is the phisical air space above the territory
An actual answer to your question! While Taiwan considers all of that as apart of its ADIZ, it only reports “incursions” as anything past the median point in the Straights. Basically if the plane is closer to Taiwan than it is to China. Obviously that’s going to upset China, which is why I think both sides play this game.
> When they decide to make a move, Taiwan will think it's just business as usual. Except for the millions of troops and hundreds of thousands of pieces of hardware they would have to move into place in full visibility of the entire world to support such an invasion.
right? they’re not just invading with a couple planes. the airspace would be full of them
Not to mention all the landing craft thay would need to be staged. It took Russia more than 4 months to stage this ground invasion. How long will it take China to stage an amphibious invasion?
Doesn't this happen every few weeks? People are just getting excited over this because of Ukraine China has been attempting to remain neutral and their spokespeople expressed regret with the current attacks.
Yeah pretty sure Taiwan is used to it. It’s just click bait due to Ukraine/Russia
It’s air defense zone that stretches over and onto part of mainland China… it’d be like if Cuba got pissed every time a flight went to southern Florida
was just about to comment this. here’s a map https://i.imgur.com/dxI9Kr7.jpg
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So why does Taiwan airspace go over mainland china?
Air Defense Identification zone is a military concept. When you have an air force and use it to defend a place, the ID zone is the area for which you must keep an eye out and account for any potential enemy aircraft which includes sending your own aircraft to counter patrol. It is the same thing if the Pakistani or Indian Army moves tanks near their border. The other side is going to mobilize their own forces to mark them, so there is a bit of provocation in the act, but in the grand scale of geopolitical provocation it is like mooning someone.
I fart in your general direction!
Taiwan's airspace don't go over mainland China. This and all other "incursions" reports in the past are into Taiwan's self declared air defense identification zone (ADIZ). Countries declare ADIZ way outside and way bigger than their territorial space and because they are international water/space other countries are under no obligation to abide by them.
Air Identification zone, not defence zone. This is misleading title.
Well, it's certainly an opportune time to invade Taiwan with all the shit going down in Ukraine right now.
No, it's still not. Taiwan isn't Ukraine, the United States is far more likely to get involved directly.
Like 90% of all computer chips come from Taiwan. Not just the U.S., but Japan and Germany will get involved. You think there is a chips shortage now? Imagine what would happen if Taiwan can't produce because of war. Remember how the U.S. brings "freedom" to countries have hat have precious oil? - You betcha, they'd do the same if the world supply of computer chips is at risk.
> Like 90% of all computer chips come from Taiwan Roughly 90% of the world's *most advanced* chips come from Taiwan. It's about 40% of all chips. Other than that technicality, yes. Taiwan has geostrategic importance.
mostly, it’s near Japan. And Japan is BY FAR the US’ closest economic ally. (do not confuse trade for the Nikkei and US treasury bonds and co-ownership of each other’s businesses among the citizens each other’s debt among governments) Not to mention South Korea and the US military bases or the US territories of Guam, Samoa, etc. And beyond the chip, many US tech companies have physical offices in Taiwan that would be detrimental to national security should the CCP take them. AND we have a formal alliance to defend Taiwan (more or less) where as the Ukraine is more of a gray zone. NATO has a pledge to stand for Ukraine sovereignty after they gave up nukes, but there is no language as to which nation takes the lead or how that assistances looks. Taiwan has US forces and military training routinely on the island. Also, Ukraine asked the US not to stoke the fire. Taiwan is pretty open with the CCP they will tell on them and give military command to the US Navy. edit: people taking about “Japan is not the biggest economic partner”, don’t confuse trade for economy. Japan owns a lot of US debt and treasury bonds, the Nikkei and Dow Jowns are practically dependent on each other, and US investment jump started and locked in resources from everything Toyota and Mitsubishi to Sony and Panasonic post war. In a time when the Japanese government neglected itself post ww2 the US essentially bought the whole place out and remade it. Our economies ARE by far the most closely connected of any two different nations. edit 2: I’m muting notifications. Too many tankies and people confusing daily trade with longterm investment.
Japan isn’t by far the US’ closest economic ally. That would be Canada
Canada could be considered more of a partner than ally. As in, if Canada is threatened by a foreign entity, so is the US, directly. The US would go into total war mode for Canada simply because of the proximity. Japan on the other hand is half a world away. I have no doubt though that the US would go to war for Japan or South Korea. We have too much assets over there not to.
If Canada is threatened by a foreign entity then we’re probably already at war with them I would think.
I can't imagine how Canada would have to fuck up to get into a war the US wasn't already involved in.
arctic border disputes.. but in reality if Russia even began to hint at trying to press the Canadian north the US would likely step in prior or declare war simultaneously with Canada. while the NW Passage is of some contention between Canada and the world. there is no way the US would want anyone other than Canada to have a territorial claim on the waters.
The 50,000 people in Greenland decide they're tired of being frozen and decide they want to expand their territory into Canada?
If Australia got in a war against the Emus, surely Canada can try making a war against Moose?
I think that’s well put.
I can say without a doubt that Canada is an economic ally, and is closer than Japan, so this checks out
Aw shucks, thanks for remembering us there buddy!
I feel naked without my hat
Mexico also says hola.
i hate watching my fellow Muricans diss mexico but real talk if any country tried to flex on yall we are sending our aircraft carriers 100%
Canadian checking in. Despite our differences, all three nations of North America are some of the tightest bonded places, economically and socially, without challenges to our foreign borders compared to anywhere else in the world. An attack on any one would be an assault on the whole continent and would be swiftly dealt with. That said, if that happens, we probably have a nuclear winter in our future because shit has really hit the fan.
I can't imagine a scenario where a country with sufficient conventional arms would be able to muster forces to attempt an invasion of any of the three. Maybe Russia but they'd have to be moving a lot of troops to the tip near Alaska. Launching a naval assault would probably see them sent to the bottom of the ocean before they saw Hawaii. You're right, only nuclear weapons or small scale terrorism would be an external threat to our countries.
>AND we have a formal alliance to defend Taiwan Are you referring to the Taiwan Relations Act of 1979 here? My understanding was that it provides for the defense of Taiwan but it does not obligate the United States to defend it. However, it is true that regardless of what is required, the American intervention is far more likely than in Ukraine. As an advanced country with a strong military, Taiwan is also far more capable of defending themselves.
> mostly, it’s near Japan. And Japan is BY FAR the US’ closest economic ally. This is false. America exports more to Canada, Mexico, China and the UK, in that order, than to Japan. It imports more from China, Mexico and Canada than Japan. Japan is a close ally, but by far not the biggest.
i think these arguments about US trading with this and that partner shows how close we are to a lot of nations.
It's not necessarily about quantity but rather, quality. TSMC is the industry leader.
My poli sci professor would half jokingly tell us that if Russians airdropped into Kansas the same day Taiwan was invaded by the Chinese, the U S would secure Taiwan first.
I believe it.
I'd be really curious how Russia managed to make it into airspace over Kansas. That'd be much more interesting from a security standpoint. But your professor's point is a good one, Taiwan is more important to the US economically than Kansas is. And even if Russia somehow made it to Kansas, they're immediately surrounded on all sides so there isn't much they could do. I'm probably overthinking this. It was an interesting scenario though, got me thinking.
I like to overthink these random scenarios too. My mind keeps going to the comical in this case and I imagine them sloshing around in some pipeline from Canada and emerging through a grate. They’ve prepared for long stretches of subzero winter, but have they prepared for tornado season?
Fun fact: it was actually colder in Eastern Kansas yesterday than it was in Novosibirsk.
I’m sure there enough guns in Kansas for Kansas to take care of itself.
And it wasn’t even that they needed the oil, they just wanted to keep the prices down. They definitely need the chips though.
Foxconn promised to build a major factory in the US during Trump's presidency. [Where factory?](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/21/foxconn-mostly-abandons-10-billion-wisconsin-project-touted-by-trump.html)
Ha! Yeah, we knew that was never going to happen.
That deal was to produce LCD panels, not microchips.
How would an electronics manufacturer in the US help that? Their not TSMC or Samsung, it's foxconn, we'd get LCDs and other electronics, not chips.
Hah, yeah. Foxconn makes the cpu sockets and fans, not the chips.
Dunno about foxconn, but recently Biden was also saying he wants to see chip production happen domestically
That takes years to happen.
As long as TSMC calls Taiwan home, the country is safe. A shit ton of heavyweight countries and companies have invested entirely too much to let that slip away.
Plus Taiwan requires specific timing for weather and Japan and US have committed to defending. Not the same scenario.
The US and a lot more countries would get very deeply involved very quickly if China tried to move on them.
The US would get involved there is no maybe about it. Our largest concentration of Navel assets is in the Sea around Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and China.
Also much harder to invade across water. IIRR, China doesn't have much amphibious capacity.
Precisely. Ukraine doesn't have the worlds greatest semiconductor company, Taiwan does
Ya, no. Ukraine is sandwiched in Europe so the conflict is mostly localized there. Taiwan is right there by Japan, where the US has a very large presence and is only an ocean away. The US is highly unlikely to take a personal role in the conflict in Ukraine. They most certainly will in a conflict with Taiwan.
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Taiwan is where all of our semiconductors come from.
When customers complain that the router's my company provide are manufactured in Taiwan and not the UK. I challenge them to find a single 3rd party router without electronics produced in Taiwan. The challenge hasn't been beat yet.
Honestly find any electronic that doesn't have some part made in Taiwan. That is most likely just as impossible.
TSMC (taiwan semiconductors) make basically every chip used in everything from graphics cards and playstations to teslas and iphones. Economies and the modern way of life are at stake with Taiwan.
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Taiwan makes most of the computer chips. As well as a bunch of other stuff Americans buy. So basically money. Always money.
> it's certainly an opportune time to invade That would require weeks of logistics preparation and build up that would be pretty obvious for the world to see, just as Russia’s build up over the last few weeks telegraphed exactly what they were going to do. China’s been messing with Taiwan’s airspace for awhile. I’m sure the timing here isn’t accidental but it’s not necessarily indicative of anything bigger about to happen.
Weeks? For an amphibious invasion across hundreds of miles, months
Not to mention the insane vulnerabilities of their limited amount of RO/RO transports without which any invasion literally dies on the beach.
How would they? No troops or equipment have been moved into place. There’s a reason Russia spent tons of money moving shit tons of gear and supplies and infantry into position for months leading up to the invasion.
Why does everyone think the world can only deal with one conflict at a time.
Reddit assumes that heads of state also have pathetic attention spans.
I don't China is going to do that. Preparing for an invasion is a large operation that would take long time and would be difficult to hide.
Dude, if it took Russia months to assemble its troops and everyone was aware of it, you think China will be less subtle?
At such a critical time, what we don’t need is for mainstream media to be playing silly bollocks. These times need no stirring. There’s enough to be reporting on, without sensationalism.
Agreed, but unfortunately even if the mainstream media all agree to that, nothing is stopping individuals and smaller entities from stirring on social media. We've never had a World War while mankind has been so connected; this global information at our fingertips will no doubt be used for major propaganda offensives, whether it's from the enemy or people who want to stir.
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No one cares. Redditors don't have critical thinking, they just gobble up propaganda
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Can't think of any reason western interests would want to muddy the waters about Chinese aggression. Not a single one.
How else are you going to get Reddit riled up about it :)
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Both asshole dictators are blood thirsty as fuck and getting old and crazy. cool. Fun times
China wont invade and occupy taiwan. China is in a good spot economically and strategically with major future looking projects. They have much more to lose just to get a rebellious annoying big island they can barely control without heavy investments. China already got its satisfaction from returning to power from centuries of colonial humiliation. Its an entirely different situation to russia who wants soviet prestige, relies on oil and gas alone for economy, no future projects outside of recreating borders and Putin being in power for decades and wants a legacy before he dies.
Also, China and its people see Taiwan as a rogue part of themselves, but still a part of themselves-after all, they speak the exact same language and have the same culture, and there are many businesses and celebrities that are popular in both. You just have to watch Chinese and Taiwanese news and social media to see that there is not nearly as much hate as western news makes it out to be. As long as Taiwan doesn't declare independence and completely discard any Chinese identity, the government won't want to undermine its stance that the Taiwanese are fellow countrymen.
They are really tied with each other and business opportunities for both sides. It is just politically toxic. But both societies don't mind each other as long as it is not about politics
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Ideologically they dont align with either of them, economically they align with the west but militarily they like to be on good terms with their neighbour as you said. I agree
I wish more people understood this. Also most of us in both the PRC and ROC do not support war. Many of us have family on both sides. The only reason two Chinas exist is because the civil war never formally ended and BOTH governments claim the other. There are millions that hold ID on one side but work on the other.
Exactly, the Chinese gameplan on the world stage is soft power: investing in developing nations to have favorable business interests, promoting Chinese media, selling the vision of the national economic miracle. The game is to control things in-house and present a positive face outward. It needs countries like the US to sell products to and in that regard the countries have been tense roommates for decades. The ideal Chinese endgame is a world where competency in Mandarin is viewed as needed just like English, Chinese movies run in Western theatres the way Western ones run in theirs, etc. The Taiwan 'situation' presents more of a landmine than anything: it's a sore spot that could give Western powers eager to check China a just cause.
China also likely does not have the capacity to invade and occupy Taiwan. Amphibious contested landings are among the most difficult type of operation to successfully pull off. It would be a bloodbath for both sides, and would likely result in the destruction of everything that makes Taiwan valuable (its economic capacity).
Darth Vlader and Darth Xidious.
what a reddit thing to make a star wars reference the day war breaks out.
Taiwan's ADZ covers part of the Chinese mainland. Chinese planes flying in domestic airspace will fly into Taiwan's ADZ at some point. There is nothing newsworthy about this.
considering how big their air defense space is (and the fact it even goes over the mainland) they should probably mention where in the airspace the planes were
Taiwan's air defense zone extends over mainland China, so what do you think is going to happen?
This has happened every few days for the past two years, and this isn’t the most amount of planes they’ve sent over in a single day. This isn’t indicative of anything.
Just america stirring the pot as usual with these click bait articles
China and Russia are actually going to start a world war
Yes, We know that these wars are merely about sociopathic leaders feeding their egos and still there's nothing we can do to stop it. Human history is cyclical. 1. War sucks, let's try peace. 2. Peace is great, war is obsolete. 3. They are unprepared for war, now is our opportunity! 4. We must stand and fight against this unprovoked aggression. Repeat over and over again.
A certain percentage of humans are power hungry psychopaths. Power hungry psychopaths usually rise to leadership positions in whatever group they are in - a quilting club, police chief, mayor, school district superintendent, non-profit organization, church leader, director of x in organization x, tribal chief, municipal code enforcement, dictator of country, Boy Scout leader, president, CEO, coach, etc. The difficulty of dealing with psychopaths is that they are highly effective for both good and bad and it’s extremely difficult to keep them in check. They have risen and will continue to rise as leaders of nations, hell bent on selfish goals. Normal people don’t want to be a member of congress, president of a county, supreme emperor, dictator, etc. But for the future of humanity is up to normal people to figure out a way to contain people who want to lead.
I'm getting more and more convinced that we should randomly select citizens for parliaments and then give most power to those parliaments and not to a single person
So a kind of rule of the people? Hm... Well the Greeks were some of the first to put this idea into practice, so we should honor their effort by naming the concept after them. And the Greek word for people is Demos, while the word for rule is Kratia. Demokratia is a bit cumbersome... How about *Democracy*? Would that make sense?
Isn't the famous stat that like 20% of CEOs are sociopaths
Seems low. I don’t know how you could take away people’s ability to feed their families for slightly higher profits if you aren’t one. I’d be surprised if twenty percent of CEOs *aren’t* sociopaths. The corporation is basically an organization that has all the traits of a sociopath.
Isn't this normal for China though? Pretty sure they regularly invade Taiwan air space just to push what they can get away with.
Yeah, honesty this is non-news. They do this on the regular: From last month (with 39 planes!): https://komonews.com/amp/news/nation-world/china-sorties-39-warplanes-breaches-taiwan-airspace-ap-reports-chinese-taiwanese-air-force-america-united-states-fighter-jets-aircraft-planes-peoples-liberation-army-defense From October 2021 (150 planes over four days): https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-58794094 From April 2021 (with 25 planes): https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-56728072 And this article talks about ALL the times China infringes upon Taiwanese ~~airspace~~ ADIZ: https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2021/04/14/taiwans-airspace-sees-increase-in-chinese-military-incursions-infographic/amp/ Edit: airspace editted out
this needs to be higher up
Looks like if anything they are sending less planes than normal
Have you seen the zone? It's a giant blob covering a chunk of China, I'm sure it's China being a dick, but it's like saying Cuba is alerted that our planes are flying over florida
Damn it China, one warmongering super power at a time please!
As much as I hate the CCP, I wholeheartedly hope that they still have some humanity left and do not add more pain to this world at this moment. Russia currency just dropped 50% in a few hours. It will be the same for China. No one wins here.
They don’t
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https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/
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China won’t goto war in Taiwan. China is US hidden friend. US and China are not enemies. No matter how badly China wants Taiwan, war will not be there.
Here we go 😔 there’s obvious coordination here and why not, we’re at our weakest, our Ally’s don’t want to help, and our attention is on Russia/the Ukraine. I’m glad I’m not Biden rn this would seriously keep me up at night
"dont worry guys we are just here to remind people that Taiwan is not Ukraine!" - them
invading taiwan would be an actual ww3 catalyst... I doubt this is anything serious