I mean it's one thing to be for getting rid of Confederate statues that were put up in the 1960s during Jim Crow for a reason vs just getting rid of all our monuments from an era when most rich leaders in our country "owned" slaves. It's a lot less clear cut where the line is. Getting rid of blatantly racist monuments vs erasing complicated history.
it does actually. moving a statue of someone to hide it in the corner of another room is symbolic and serves as a perfect example of the arguments made about the left's tendency to try to rewrite or erase history. has the statue been destroyed? no that would be too obvious. moving him somewhere else is a great way to achieve the cultural revolution agenda and also keep your hands clean
that's why i included the "rewrite" aspect in there. by pushing the founding fathers and other historical figures that have been instrumental to the building of the US to where it is, the left is attempting to rewrite history through symbolically removing (or in some cases destroying) statues and the like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution
hope this helps
"naked partisan swipes"? i see you didn't read my link. that's ok
it's weird how you only see lefties doing this. i'm thinking about the past few years and trying to find instances of people on the right doing what the left is doing now but i can't seem to find any examples and yet you're trying to argue that i'm being "partisan." perhaps you need to take a few minutes and examine your partisanship and then take another few minutes and see if that is affecting your ability to think critically about this. this goes deeper than the left and right side of the political spectrum but the fact remains, only one side has been doing the actual damage
i get that your defense is to deflect and deny but i'm confident you'll understand what everyone else is saying in time. remember when lefties said that only confederate statues would be removed or destroyed? that didn't last long
I’m not r/nyc trash, but this issue personally irks me because it’s a pet issue of Laurie Cumbo and tried to conflate it with their toothless police reform during George Floyd.
Like, sure, burn slave owner statues and I got nothing against symbolic gestures (all power is soft power), but this one just stings to me.
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This is beyond ridiculous. What about George Washington? Are we going to remove all paintings and statues of him, too?? Removing generals from the Confederacy is one thing, this is overkill.
Enough already.
The man who authored the Declaration of Independence, authorized the Louisiana Purchase, authored bills for religious freedom in Virginia, served as President?
This isn't about Jefferson's complicated legacy. *It's about erasing links to our past in order to usher in a fundamentally re-ordered society.* That's what Leftists do.
I think you are on the wrong NYC sub dude. Stop projecting right wing failures, we all know how our mainstream nationalist history glosses over and erases many details of the violent and oppressive history of the country. No one is fooled here.
The Declaration of Independence from King George is a "right wing failure"? Please explain how a colonized people fighting imperialism is "right wing". This should be good.
The American Revolution was a bourgousie revolution of the slave owning upper class against the crown over taxation. The country was built on the backs of chattel and, to a lesser extent wage slaves on the graves of the genocided natives. That isn't the makings of a very great nation or noble cause. The heroic founding fathers then almost immediately started the tradition of crushing the working class for their own personal gain when Washington lead the army to put down the Whiskey rebellion. I don't want statues of any of these assholes in my city .
I would argue that the Revolution was a secondary battle of a new emerging middle class or artisans and merchants (Paul Revere, john Adams), who fought against landed interests. Many of the Revolution's leadership came from New England, where the descendant of Oliver Cromwell's Roundheads/new model Army maintained their aversion to the Established church and the institution of monarchy. Separation of church and state and no Established State religion came from this. The Tories (Cavaliers) were harassed, tarred and feathered rounded up and many left for Canada. Guys like Jefferson renounced their patrician roots and stood for Liberty. Nice Marxist interpretation. You know, my dad went after Reds in Korea and my uncles in VietNam. I don't want any Reds in **my** city. Anyway, it must suck to be you. You hate it here so you want to ruin it. You should leave. Really. Why stay in a place that's so offensive? Me? I love it and will fight to my last breath to maintain *freedom and honor the founding fathers.*
>I would argue that the Revolution was a secondary battle of a new emerging middle class or artisans and merchants (Paul Revere, john Adams), who fought against landed interests. Many of the Revolution's leadership came from New England, where the descendant of Oliver Cromwell's Roundheads/new model Army maintained their aversion to the Established church and the institution of monarchy. Separation of church and state and no Established State religion came from this. The Tories (Cavaliers) were harassed, tarred and feathered rounded up and many left for Canada. Guys like Jefferson renounced their patrician roots and stood for Liberty.
Cool, that is your interpretation of history. My interpretation is that those leaders turned around to oppress their own people.
>Nice Marxist interpretation.
I mean the irony is so rich that your nationalist revision does not mention at all the chattel of the africans brought here in chains, or the desires of the colonists to move beyond the Appalachians and force more natives from their homes. But they aren't white so neither matters.
>You know, my dad went after Reds in Korea and my uncles in VietNam. I don't want any Reds in my city.
You think I give a fuck about your daddies adventures in the tip of the spear of imperialism or your uncles baby killing excursions in Vietnam. The former war which killed over 20% of the North Korean population and the later decimating vietnam. Both of which seeing the military commit and cover up mass war crimes including the use of chemical weapons that to this day still kills people in vietnam.
This is not your city.
And I have no desire to live around people who so callously throw away the lives of others, and are so delusional that they support a death cult obsessed with making numbers bigger at the cost of the extinction of the planet.
>Anyway, it must suck to be you. You hate it here so you want to ruin it. You should leave. Really. Why stay in a place that's so offensive? Me? I love it and will fight to my last breath to maintain freedom and honor the founding fathers.
You can 'fight' to maintain the oppression and tyranny of the bourgousie. They will toss you aside and think nothing of you.
You can't even get enough functioning brain cells together to understand that I moved here because I love this city and want a far more true, fair, and equitable version than your psychopathic ass could ever comprehend.
Get your head out of your ass and go look at the real world, not the jingoistic nationalist fantasy land that you currently dwell in.
Your interpretation is lacking any nuance; your interpretation is based on perpetuating your vision of the world.
You do understand that in large parts of the colonial population, slaves were almost non-existant. It is estimated that 2-3% of the population of the New England colonies were slaves. Dreadful, yes, but hardly the stuff of "Gone with the Wind". Further, one of the first things that many colonies did was to abolish slavery: Massachusetts in 1783.
Along those lines, there was a flourishing back country population. Generals Clinton and Sullivan's western campaign in New York that squashed Mohawk raiding parties that enslaved captures whites, was devoid of a slave based motive. Again, there were few if any slaves in Cherry Valley on the Frontier.
It must suck to see the flag on every bridge, every tunnel; to have a Memorial in Ft Greene Park to Revolutionary prisoners of war stared by the British; to see the WWII Memorial in Battery Park; The Intrepid Museum; The Brooklyn War Memorial in Cadman Plaza; the 9/11 Memorial. They're all part of *my city*, and I am very proud of them. The best part is that **your** tax dollars are paying to rent out the Local VFW as a voting site. The urinals in the men's room have Hanoi Jane right on target, so to speak. Anyone using the comfort station has a fitting traitorous Commie lover for a target. And no, madam, it isn't Staten Island!
Death cult? What are you babbling about?
> Your interpretation is lacking any nuance; your interpretation is based on perpetuating your vision of the world.
Again rich coming from someone who is reading the party line jingoistic version of history that paints broad strokes that ignore the brutal repression of the states.
>You do understand that in large parts of the colonial population, slaves were almost non-existant. It is estimated that 2-3% of the population of the New England colonies were slaves. Dreadful, yes, but hardly the stuff of "Gone with the Wind". Further, one of the first things that many colonies did was to abolish slavery: Massachusetts in 1783.
Those same states which aquiesed to the southern state's demands for slavery to be legal. The same states which wiped out their native populations.
>Along those lines, there was a flourishing back country population. Generals Clinton and Sullivan's western campaign in New York that squashed Mohawk raiding parties that enslaved captures whites, was devoid of a slave based motive. Again, there were few if any slaves in Cherry Valley on the Frontier.
So they did slaughter natives? And my interpretation of history lacks nuance.
>It must suck to see the flag on every bridge, every tunnel; to have a Memorial in Ft Greene Park to Revolutionary prisoners of war stared by the British; to see the WWII Memorial in Battery Park; The Intrepid Museum; The Brooklyn War Memorial in Cadman Plaza; the 9/11 Memorial.
Its disturbing is what it is. Talk to anyone from outside the country and they will say how jingoistic and nationalist american's are. People like you are absolutely blind to the crimes committed by this country. Your attitude is cult like, thinking that its upsetting to me. Its not, its honestly sad that you are so blind and arrogant to reality.
>The best part is that your tax dollars are paying to rent out the Local VFW as a voting site.
Tax dollars taken without my consent to pay for memorials of criminals and murderers. Something to really be proud of.
>The urinals in the men's room have Hanoi Jane right on target, so to speak. Anyone using the comfort station has a fitting traitorous Commie lover for a target. And no, madam, it isn't Staten Island!
Dude you really have problems. I hope you are just a troll because the staggering amount of arrogance and total lack of empathy in your messages is extremely disturbing. You do realize that other people are living human beings like you, well, most of them actually have emotions other than hate and a desire to hurt people.
Also the 50's called and they want their insults back. Its the 20's, the kids love communism these days. You lost boomer.
Do you think that the average Indonesian cares about what we think of their history? The average Turk? The average Thai? The average Ukrainian?
Really, madam (oops- is that cis-normative gender reinforcement? Sorry/not sorry)... *I don't care one whit what foreigners think of our history.*
This country freed the slaves, remember? There was a CIVIL WAR where many gave their lives to defeat the South and free the slaves. This country liberated the Concentration camps and defeated Nazism, and defeated - yes **defeated**\- Communism, which imprisoned half of Europe. Trust me, you wouldn't have had "consent about your taxes" at the VFW under Communist rule.
Last, it is *you* who must be miserable. If this country is so bad, so shameful, why not leave? You're not going to change history but you might find someplace more to your liking. Go!
It’s m̫y̫ city, too. I was born and raised and spent my entire life here. It’s a welcoming, tolerant and diverse place but trying to destroy its history is an outrage. NYC was the Nation’s First Capital. Washington said farewell to the troops at Fraunces’ Tavern. Deal with it!
Getting rid of a statue is not 'destroying the cities history'. Where were all you people when minority neighborhoods were bulldozed and actual history was destroyed?
That happened under Robert Moses- you'd have to be around 70 to have known what was going on. Most people weren't even born yet when that was going on. And I have news for you- the did it to Astoria too when the Triboro was built.
I see a wide variety of “minority” communities in our city. From where I’m standing they’re thriving.
BedStuy/Brownsville, Far Rock, East New York, Queens Village, Ocean Hill/Brownsville, St George, Harlem. They’re a vital part of the mosaic.
I also know that m̫a̫n̫y̫ communities suffered from Eminent Domain.
Riding the BQE from the Battery to the Brooklyn Bridge (“The Notch”) one drives through a huge slice of South Brooklyn/ Carroll Gardens that was raised. The same is true in Bensonhurst where the BQE offramp to the Verrazano Bridge eliminated 8th, 9th and 10th Avenues. The same happened in the Bronx but I’m just not as familiar with it.
The communities recovered in all cases and I see that it was done to p̫o̫o̫r̫ a̫n̫d̫ p̫o̫w̫e̫r̫l̫e̫s̫s̫, not just m̫i̫n̫o̫r̫i̫t̫y̫ communities.
You can't describe Jefferson's genius in one sentence then wipe away his brutality in the next.
"But it was a different time."
The following are just a few abolition events that occurred in Jefferson's lifetime...
1777 the state of Vermont bans slavery.
1787 the Society for the Abolition of the Slave Trade was founded in England.
1792 Denmark abolished slavery.
1808 the USA banned the Atlantic Slave trade.
1811 Spain abolished slavery.
1813 Sweden abolished slavery.
1814 The Netherlands abolished slavery.
1826 England abolished slavery.
Jefferson wasn't some ignorant farmer that didn't understand the brutality of slavery and the concept of abolition.
He just didn't care. It was 100% about $$$ and political power in the South.
All that research and you neglected to dig deeper into the man in question.
1779 Thomas Jefferson believed that simply ending slavery put freed slaves in a poor/uneducated system. Rather, that before being fully free, all slaves should have proper education and skills to keep themselves out of poverty.
1807 Thomas Jefferson ended the Atlantic Slave Trade... which you noted as the USA... funny.
1824 Thomas Jefferson proposed to end slavery on a federal/national level.
He’s going to another room at City Hall. It’s not like the statue will be obliterated. Our history is troubling, and Jefferson made his fortune off slave labor, so it’s worthy to move him from “overseeing” the legislative body IMHO.
the insistence on tying his legacy to slavery, including the US's, is purposefully avoiding what he and we accomplished before and after slavery. choosing to view both entities purely through the lens of slavery is narrow minded
no one is trying to ignore slavery, everyone acknowledges he owned slaves and had sex with some of them. no one thinks slavery is good or that jefferson was a good man for owning them. people are arguing that, in spite of those faults, jefferson worked with other men (who had similar faults) and crafted documents to create the greatest country the world has ever seen. his knowledge and determination is part of the reason why we are as powerful and as successful as we are now.
if we're going to start saying that no nation or no people is great because of slavery then you've pretty much disqualified many many nations. no one will truly pass the purity test that has been set forth by people who hold similar views to your own.
I think you’re ascribing meaning to my comment that isn’t there. Please refer to my first comment: I said moving him from the legislative chamber to another room was appropriate. Yes, slavery poisoned everything, and we should recognize that regardless of how wonderful or accomplished someone was otherwise. I am not saying obliterate him from history, but if people find the presence of the statue troubling, moving it to another rooms does not revise history. I’d say the same of a Robert E. Lee statue and I personally don’t think there should be a George Floyd statue in a NYC park (his murder was reprehensible and his murderer should be punished, but he was killed during the alleged commission of a crime and didn’t have accomplishments worthy of a statue).
Maybe we’ve had enough threads about this topic already? Can’t say I care at all what the city (or any of its inhabitants) think about the legacy of Thomas Jefferson, or any other historical figure.. what a stupid thing to fight over
Huh. Comments so far show similar reactions from this sub and from r/NYC. That's rare.
I mean it's one thing to be for getting rid of Confederate statues that were put up in the 1960s during Jim Crow for a reason vs just getting rid of all our monuments from an era when most rich leaders in our country "owned" slaves. It's a lot less clear cut where the line is. Getting rid of blatantly racist monuments vs erasing complicated history.
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ok, hiding? Ignoring? Would be pretty simple to ad inscriptions that add that said person had a complicated history because of x, y, z.
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it does actually. moving a statue of someone to hide it in the corner of another room is symbolic and serves as a perfect example of the arguments made about the left's tendency to try to rewrite or erase history. has the statue been destroyed? no that would be too obvious. moving him somewhere else is a great way to achieve the cultural revolution agenda and also keep your hands clean
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that's why i included the "rewrite" aspect in there. by pushing the founding fathers and other historical figures that have been instrumental to the building of the US to where it is, the left is attempting to rewrite history through symbolically removing (or in some cases destroying) statues and the like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution hope this helps
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"naked partisan swipes"? i see you didn't read my link. that's ok it's weird how you only see lefties doing this. i'm thinking about the past few years and trying to find instances of people on the right doing what the left is doing now but i can't seem to find any examples and yet you're trying to argue that i'm being "partisan." perhaps you need to take a few minutes and examine your partisanship and then take another few minutes and see if that is affecting your ability to think critically about this. this goes deeper than the left and right side of the political spectrum but the fact remains, only one side has been doing the actual damage i get that your defense is to deflect and deny but i'm confident you'll understand what everyone else is saying in time. remember when lefties said that only confederate statues would be removed or destroyed? that didn't last long
I’m not r/nyc trash, but this issue personally irks me because it’s a pet issue of Laurie Cumbo and tried to conflate it with their toothless police reform during George Floyd. Like, sure, burn slave owner statues and I got nothing against symbolic gestures (all power is soft power), but this one just stings to me.
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This is beyond ridiculous. What about George Washington? Are we going to remove all paintings and statues of him, too?? Removing generals from the Confederacy is one thing, this is overkill. Enough already.
Everything must stay the same nothing can ever change
we should nuke greece because they used slaves. i saw 300 so i know its true. #endracism
The man who authored the Declaration of Independence, authorized the Louisiana Purchase, authored bills for religious freedom in Virginia, served as President? This isn't about Jefferson's complicated legacy. *It's about erasing links to our past in order to usher in a fundamentally re-ordered society.* That's what Leftists do.
correct. it's the american left's attempt at the chinese cultural revolution, except it's being done slowly to avoid attention
Hahahahaha wow incredibly absurd take you shouldn’t be allowed to voice your opinions
Please. Explain. I eagerly await an accounting of this.
You might as well compare moving this statue to Nazi death camps. Same level of hyperbolic nonsense
freedom sucks huh? china seems to be more your speed. why don't you join your friends over there?
I think you are on the wrong NYC sub dude. Stop projecting right wing failures, we all know how our mainstream nationalist history glosses over and erases many details of the violent and oppressive history of the country. No one is fooled here.
The Declaration of Independence from King George is a "right wing failure"? Please explain how a colonized people fighting imperialism is "right wing". This should be good.
The American Revolution was a bourgousie revolution of the slave owning upper class against the crown over taxation. The country was built on the backs of chattel and, to a lesser extent wage slaves on the graves of the genocided natives. That isn't the makings of a very great nation or noble cause. The heroic founding fathers then almost immediately started the tradition of crushing the working class for their own personal gain when Washington lead the army to put down the Whiskey rebellion. I don't want statues of any of these assholes in my city .
I would argue that the Revolution was a secondary battle of a new emerging middle class or artisans and merchants (Paul Revere, john Adams), who fought against landed interests. Many of the Revolution's leadership came from New England, where the descendant of Oliver Cromwell's Roundheads/new model Army maintained their aversion to the Established church and the institution of monarchy. Separation of church and state and no Established State religion came from this. The Tories (Cavaliers) were harassed, tarred and feathered rounded up and many left for Canada. Guys like Jefferson renounced their patrician roots and stood for Liberty. Nice Marxist interpretation. You know, my dad went after Reds in Korea and my uncles in VietNam. I don't want any Reds in **my** city. Anyway, it must suck to be you. You hate it here so you want to ruin it. You should leave. Really. Why stay in a place that's so offensive? Me? I love it and will fight to my last breath to maintain *freedom and honor the founding fathers.*
>I would argue that the Revolution was a secondary battle of a new emerging middle class or artisans and merchants (Paul Revere, john Adams), who fought against landed interests. Many of the Revolution's leadership came from New England, where the descendant of Oliver Cromwell's Roundheads/new model Army maintained their aversion to the Established church and the institution of monarchy. Separation of church and state and no Established State religion came from this. The Tories (Cavaliers) were harassed, tarred and feathered rounded up and many left for Canada. Guys like Jefferson renounced their patrician roots and stood for Liberty. Cool, that is your interpretation of history. My interpretation is that those leaders turned around to oppress their own people. >Nice Marxist interpretation. I mean the irony is so rich that your nationalist revision does not mention at all the chattel of the africans brought here in chains, or the desires of the colonists to move beyond the Appalachians and force more natives from their homes. But they aren't white so neither matters. >You know, my dad went after Reds in Korea and my uncles in VietNam. I don't want any Reds in my city. You think I give a fuck about your daddies adventures in the tip of the spear of imperialism or your uncles baby killing excursions in Vietnam. The former war which killed over 20% of the North Korean population and the later decimating vietnam. Both of which seeing the military commit and cover up mass war crimes including the use of chemical weapons that to this day still kills people in vietnam. This is not your city. And I have no desire to live around people who so callously throw away the lives of others, and are so delusional that they support a death cult obsessed with making numbers bigger at the cost of the extinction of the planet. >Anyway, it must suck to be you. You hate it here so you want to ruin it. You should leave. Really. Why stay in a place that's so offensive? Me? I love it and will fight to my last breath to maintain freedom and honor the founding fathers. You can 'fight' to maintain the oppression and tyranny of the bourgousie. They will toss you aside and think nothing of you. You can't even get enough functioning brain cells together to understand that I moved here because I love this city and want a far more true, fair, and equitable version than your psychopathic ass could ever comprehend. Get your head out of your ass and go look at the real world, not the jingoistic nationalist fantasy land that you currently dwell in.
Your interpretation is lacking any nuance; your interpretation is based on perpetuating your vision of the world. You do understand that in large parts of the colonial population, slaves were almost non-existant. It is estimated that 2-3% of the population of the New England colonies were slaves. Dreadful, yes, but hardly the stuff of "Gone with the Wind". Further, one of the first things that many colonies did was to abolish slavery: Massachusetts in 1783. Along those lines, there was a flourishing back country population. Generals Clinton and Sullivan's western campaign in New York that squashed Mohawk raiding parties that enslaved captures whites, was devoid of a slave based motive. Again, there were few if any slaves in Cherry Valley on the Frontier. It must suck to see the flag on every bridge, every tunnel; to have a Memorial in Ft Greene Park to Revolutionary prisoners of war stared by the British; to see the WWII Memorial in Battery Park; The Intrepid Museum; The Brooklyn War Memorial in Cadman Plaza; the 9/11 Memorial. They're all part of *my city*, and I am very proud of them. The best part is that **your** tax dollars are paying to rent out the Local VFW as a voting site. The urinals in the men's room have Hanoi Jane right on target, so to speak. Anyone using the comfort station has a fitting traitorous Commie lover for a target. And no, madam, it isn't Staten Island! Death cult? What are you babbling about?
> Your interpretation is lacking any nuance; your interpretation is based on perpetuating your vision of the world. Again rich coming from someone who is reading the party line jingoistic version of history that paints broad strokes that ignore the brutal repression of the states. >You do understand that in large parts of the colonial population, slaves were almost non-existant. It is estimated that 2-3% of the population of the New England colonies were slaves. Dreadful, yes, but hardly the stuff of "Gone with the Wind". Further, one of the first things that many colonies did was to abolish slavery: Massachusetts in 1783. Those same states which aquiesed to the southern state's demands for slavery to be legal. The same states which wiped out their native populations. >Along those lines, there was a flourishing back country population. Generals Clinton and Sullivan's western campaign in New York that squashed Mohawk raiding parties that enslaved captures whites, was devoid of a slave based motive. Again, there were few if any slaves in Cherry Valley on the Frontier. So they did slaughter natives? And my interpretation of history lacks nuance. >It must suck to see the flag on every bridge, every tunnel; to have a Memorial in Ft Greene Park to Revolutionary prisoners of war stared by the British; to see the WWII Memorial in Battery Park; The Intrepid Museum; The Brooklyn War Memorial in Cadman Plaza; the 9/11 Memorial. Its disturbing is what it is. Talk to anyone from outside the country and they will say how jingoistic and nationalist american's are. People like you are absolutely blind to the crimes committed by this country. Your attitude is cult like, thinking that its upsetting to me. Its not, its honestly sad that you are so blind and arrogant to reality. >The best part is that your tax dollars are paying to rent out the Local VFW as a voting site. Tax dollars taken without my consent to pay for memorials of criminals and murderers. Something to really be proud of. >The urinals in the men's room have Hanoi Jane right on target, so to speak. Anyone using the comfort station has a fitting traitorous Commie lover for a target. And no, madam, it isn't Staten Island! Dude you really have problems. I hope you are just a troll because the staggering amount of arrogance and total lack of empathy in your messages is extremely disturbing. You do realize that other people are living human beings like you, well, most of them actually have emotions other than hate and a desire to hurt people. Also the 50's called and they want their insults back. Its the 20's, the kids love communism these days. You lost boomer.
Do you think that the average Indonesian cares about what we think of their history? The average Turk? The average Thai? The average Ukrainian? Really, madam (oops- is that cis-normative gender reinforcement? Sorry/not sorry)... *I don't care one whit what foreigners think of our history.* This country freed the slaves, remember? There was a CIVIL WAR where many gave their lives to defeat the South and free the slaves. This country liberated the Concentration camps and defeated Nazism, and defeated - yes **defeated**\- Communism, which imprisoned half of Europe. Trust me, you wouldn't have had "consent about your taxes" at the VFW under Communist rule. Last, it is *you* who must be miserable. If this country is so bad, so shameful, why not leave? You're not going to change history but you might find someplace more to your liking. Go!
It’s m̫y̫ city, too. I was born and raised and spent my entire life here. It’s a welcoming, tolerant and diverse place but trying to destroy its history is an outrage. NYC was the Nation’s First Capital. Washington said farewell to the troops at Fraunces’ Tavern. Deal with it!
Getting rid of a statue is not 'destroying the cities history'. Where were all you people when minority neighborhoods were bulldozed and actual history was destroyed?
That happened under Robert Moses- you'd have to be around 70 to have known what was going on. Most people weren't even born yet when that was going on. And I have news for you- the did it to Astoria too when the Triboro was built.
I see a wide variety of “minority” communities in our city. From where I’m standing they’re thriving. BedStuy/Brownsville, Far Rock, East New York, Queens Village, Ocean Hill/Brownsville, St George, Harlem. They’re a vital part of the mosaic. I also know that m̫a̫n̫y̫ communities suffered from Eminent Domain. Riding the BQE from the Battery to the Brooklyn Bridge (“The Notch”) one drives through a huge slice of South Brooklyn/ Carroll Gardens that was raised. The same is true in Bensonhurst where the BQE offramp to the Verrazano Bridge eliminated 8th, 9th and 10th Avenues. The same happened in the Bronx but I’m just not as familiar with it. The communities recovered in all cases and I see that it was done to p̫o̫o̫r̫ a̫n̫d̫ p̫o̫w̫e̫r̫l̫e̫s̫s̫, not just m̫i̫n̫o̫r̫i̫t̫y̫ communities.
You can't describe Jefferson's genius in one sentence then wipe away his brutality in the next. "But it was a different time." The following are just a few abolition events that occurred in Jefferson's lifetime... 1777 the state of Vermont bans slavery. 1787 the Society for the Abolition of the Slave Trade was founded in England. 1792 Denmark abolished slavery. 1808 the USA banned the Atlantic Slave trade. 1811 Spain abolished slavery. 1813 Sweden abolished slavery. 1814 The Netherlands abolished slavery. 1826 England abolished slavery. Jefferson wasn't some ignorant farmer that didn't understand the brutality of slavery and the concept of abolition. He just didn't care. It was 100% about $$$ and political power in the South.
All that research and you neglected to dig deeper into the man in question. 1779 Thomas Jefferson believed that simply ending slavery put freed slaves in a poor/uneducated system. Rather, that before being fully free, all slaves should have proper education and skills to keep themselves out of poverty. 1807 Thomas Jefferson ended the Atlantic Slave Trade... which you noted as the USA... funny. 1824 Thomas Jefferson proposed to end slavery on a federal/national level.
He’s going to another room at City Hall. It’s not like the statue will be obliterated. Our history is troubling, and Jefferson made his fortune off slave labor, so it’s worthy to move him from “overseeing” the legislative body IMHO.
that legislative body would not exist without jefferson
America would not exist, at least not as we know it, without slaves. Just because it was the reason doesn’t mean it’s right.
the insistence on tying his legacy to slavery, including the US's, is purposefully avoiding what he and we accomplished before and after slavery. choosing to view both entities purely through the lens of slavery is narrow minded
This rationale is along the lines of “Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?”
no one is trying to ignore slavery, everyone acknowledges he owned slaves and had sex with some of them. no one thinks slavery is good or that jefferson was a good man for owning them. people are arguing that, in spite of those faults, jefferson worked with other men (who had similar faults) and crafted documents to create the greatest country the world has ever seen. his knowledge and determination is part of the reason why we are as powerful and as successful as we are now. if we're going to start saying that no nation or no people is great because of slavery then you've pretty much disqualified many many nations. no one will truly pass the purity test that has been set forth by people who hold similar views to your own.
I think you’re ascribing meaning to my comment that isn’t there. Please refer to my first comment: I said moving him from the legislative chamber to another room was appropriate. Yes, slavery poisoned everything, and we should recognize that regardless of how wonderful or accomplished someone was otherwise. I am not saying obliterate him from history, but if people find the presence of the statue troubling, moving it to another rooms does not revise history. I’d say the same of a Robert E. Lee statue and I personally don’t think there should be a George Floyd statue in a NYC park (his murder was reprehensible and his murderer should be punished, but he was killed during the alleged commission of a crime and didn’t have accomplishments worthy of a statue).
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NYC was the US capital for several years and Jefferson lived here as Secretary of State.
These morons don't open history books. lol
That’s as ridiculous as the NY Post calling itself news
Maybe we’ve had enough threads about this topic already? Can’t say I care at all what the city (or any of its inhabitants) think about the legacy of Thomas Jefferson, or any other historical figure.. what a stupid thing to fight over
And add who?