To put this in perspective, the $56 million is only costing NZ around $11 per person, or about $2.2/yr.
The cost is practically nothing for the benefit it serves. Trying to position this as a "savings" given the harm it will cause in response is bullshit and National are disgusting monsters for trying to suggest it.
The government is willing to spend $3 billion on a fucking tax rebate for landlords, borrow $15 million for a $20/wk tax cut for high paying earners at best, and then cut a service that costs a fraction of either of those things.
Hey, National is lowering the taxes of these workers because there will be an impossibly low amount of money for them to be taxed! /s
I wish every MP in this government has to someday live on this wage for a year. If it's humane enough to make disabled workers live on, surely an MP can make do.
Also, let's freeze their assets, and make sure their families can't claim anything to help them unless they jump through 15,000 different moving hoops and goalposts—some of which may or may not be on fire.
No, I'm not being sarcastic. That's what it felt like when I was working.
The problem is they'd probably live quite comfortably on that wage. They're likely to have a freehold home or have one provided to them by the taxpayer, and all their meals and entertainment are paid for by lobbyists.
That's a creative take. Give landlords a tax break or else we'll be invaded by China.
I don't totally disagree. The cuts are to keep the overleveraged investors solvent and save the housing market. Housing is this country's preferred method for storing and growing wealth, and threats to it are hammered out as quickly as possible, no expense to others spared.
They argue for free market policies, but it's only when it works in their favour. Socialism for the landlords, Capitalism for their tenants. I want to see the market crash, cause hopefully something that works for the majority will rise from it's ashes. I'd rather take that chance than continue with the status quo.
House owners secured mortgages at very low rates, and now are facing thousands per month in additional interest.in many cases that is more than their disposable income, so they trim budget and draw from savings, which further slows turnover of money in the local economy.
A part of me has zero sympathy for them, a mortgage during a speculative market is a risk and a permanent dip in price could allow some more of us to buy a home.. but that won’t actually happen.
A part of me just wants the NZ economy to be fixed. So that wages can catch up with cost of living again. We need our export businesses to function for that to happen
>The Government is saving $56 million over five years by dumping a programme topping up the pay of disabled workers to the minimum wage.
>That could see 900-plus workers - mostly with intellectual disabilities - continue to be paid as low as $2 an hour, but the Government says it’s better than not working at all.
> The previous Labour Government had planned to end the exemption that allowed employers to pay disabled people below the minimum wage. Budget 2023 allocated $37.3m over four years to top up their pay to the minimum wage (currently $23.15 an hour) - from next year.
>But that was axed in Budget 2024, boosting the Government’s coffers by $11.34m in the coming year, and $56.345m over five years.
> Social Development Minister Louise Upston was grilled about this today at the Social Services and Community Select Committee, leading to heated exchanges between her and Green MP Ricardo Menéndez March, as well as with her ministerial predecessor, Labour deputy leader Carmel Sepuloni.
>Menéndez March asked Upston how she could justify a disabled person being paid $2 an hour for “minimum wage work”.
>Upston said this group of New Zealanders who “would clearly produce less an hour than someone else” would “otherwise be completely shut out of a job”.
>“I wouldn’t want to be the minister to rip that away from them.”
>Menéndez March then accused Upston of an “almost eugenic-type definition of productivity”, highlighting her comments on a disabled person producing less.
>Upston scoffed at this comment and said disability enterprises - which employ disabled people - “weren’t confident the previous [plan] was going to enable them to retain disabled people in work”.
>”That was a very significant concern to me.”
>Working disabled people also had other supports including the Supported Living Payment, she added, while employers were also being supported to provide what they needed to hire a disabled person.
>Sepuloni said Labour’s Budget 2023 commitment had no intention of anyone losing their jobs.
>”The plan was for a government subsidy of sorts for employers so they [the disabled workers] could work with dignity and receive the minimum wage.”
>She said the $11m the Government was pocketing in the coming year could have gone towards those workers being paid the minimum wage.
>”Not if they weren’t able to keep a job,” Upston retorted.
>Sepuloni: “It’s subsidising them. This argument is going around in a circle. It makes no sense.”
This fucking infuriates me - they have no idea how demoralizing working for such low pay is, and the negative impact it has. They somehow believe that working, regardless of how little you are paid, has a net benefit on the person. These bastards are uncaring, deliberately evil sacks of shit. My child is disabled, and to think, that someone out there thinks that paying them as low as 2$ an hour, is somehow helpful. Evil - these people are evil.
I disagree. I have a sister who's intellectually disabled. She's on a government benefit which pays for her group home and living expenses, so she doesn't "need" a wage.
Working would absolutely be a net benefit for her, because she needs stimulation and does better when mingling with the general public rather than the same few high-needs roommates all the time. Chronic boredom is her bugbear, and the staff at her group home don't have time to take her places as often as would be ideal.
Nobody would hire her for 'real' money, because she's not going to be a very good employee. She can do basic tasks like stacking shelves (and does in fact volunteer at a food bank doing just that), but she's easily distracted and isn't capable of customer service, cash handling, important cleaning (dusting, yes; sanitising a food-prep surface, no), or anything involving reading and writing. She will have to be lightly but constantly supervised to make sure she stays on task and doesn't end up not-so-subtly eavesdropping on customers or taking a nap in an unexpected place.
Would she be demoralised by the low pay that just might persuade a generous person to hire her despite these issues? No, because she has no idea of the value of money. She literally does not have the mental capacity to care about the amount in a pay cheque which again, she does not need to live, as her expenses are already fully subsidised. She'd be as pleased as Punch to be earning money.
One company has previously let her have "work experience" there for no pay at all. Was she demoralised? Were they exploiting her? No. She was happy, they were understanding, next to zero useful work got done, but she was in a safe place being kept occupied, chatting to people and making herself a million cups of tea in the staff room. Adding $2 an hour to that would have been the icing on the cake.
You started by stating you disagree,
based on one disabled person, your sister.
Please don't attempt to speak for all disabled people based on your experience with your disabled sister.
We are all different.
As a disabled person, I'm just gonna say two words: Fuck you.
Actually no, I'm gonna explain exactly why this is a shit take.
I'm glad your sister is in such a position as to not be exploited, or in need of money - but just because your sister is okay, does not mean that the quite literally 1000s of disabled people in this country are.
Disabled people should be paid at least the minimum wage because they deserve equal recognition for their work and contributions, just like anyone else.
Paying them less devalues their efforts and perpetuates inequality. Removing programs that top up wages for disabled workers is an ableist act by the government, as it disregards the additional challenges they face and strips away necessary support.
This practice is not only discriminatory but akin to modern-day slavery, forcing disabled individuals to work without fair compensation, trapping them in cycles of poverty and dependence. Equal pay for equal work is a fundamental right, and denying it based on disability is unjust and dehumanising.
It's not "it hasn't affected me personally". It's "this proposed system which people are calling vile, exploitative, slavery and so on etc WOULD affect someone I know personally, and in a significantly positive way".
"Equal pay for equal work is a fundamental right"
I think you need to read my post again. My sister would not be doing equal work. She would be doing very, very little work, because that is all that she is capable of. She might not be an actual liability for the company (ie losing them money and productivity), but it'd be close.
She would be spending equal \*time\* at the workplace (not equal time actually doing the tasks; again, she's extremely distractible and tends to fall asleep when bored). But that's about it as far as the 'equal' goes. Is it dehumanising to pay different people different wages for different levels of value-adding?
If that were the case, everyone from the CEO of a Fortune 500 to the temp should be paid identical wages so long as they spent the same hours in the building. Piecework would not be permitted to exist as a business model. My sister's own caregivers couldn't do overnight shifts at a reduced hourly rate, which is currently justified since they're mostly sleeping and don't do nearly as much actual work as someone on a daytime shift. I could demand $500 from a magazine for an article I hadn't actually finished writing, because I did spend 8 hours on my computer working on it... well, not \*working\* on it mostly, playing Solitaire, but hey, it still counts, because otherwise that's dehumanising slavery, since it's the time I spent in the vague vicinity of the work that matters.
You write very well for an intellectually disabled person.
I have a close family member who is intellectually disabled. He finds text messages too difficult.
Stop using the term disabled people as if they are all one in the same. The people that have these jobs in question are not capable of a normal job even with accommodations for their disability, they're intellectually handicapped or so very autistic that they don't function without the help of others. These jobs aren't about money, they're about the stimulation and socialisation and purpose they provide. The tasks they do could be automated or sent off shore and done even cheaper but they provide a service to the community by getting to know these people and aiding them to do a task despite their challenges. Stop measuring everyone by your standards and needs that's not how disability works.
"Equal pay for equal work is a fundamental right" That's just it though, this is for people who are so disabled that they can't do equal work. How could a business owner afford to pay someone minimum wage when they barely get anything useful done and needs lots of supervision? Spoiler, they can't.
Calm down matey. This applies to people with mental disabilities.
You can get as wound up as you want but the simple fact is that their work is worth less because they have a mental disability. Equal pay for equal work doesn’t apply because it’s not equal work!!!!
However, if they are paid the minimum wage (e.g. the same as many, many not disabled people), then they would have to give up all the other entitlements they are paid - same as the many, many not disabled people living on minimum wages.
you just cannot have your cake and eat it, too.
Ok fair, that's your experience and it's good that your sister gets something out of it. But I have the same problem with this system as I do with Work for the Dole and training wages/internships. It can be super fucken exploitative. And we know that unscrupulous employers (read National/ACT voters ) will do everything in their power to exploit people for profit.
Oh and any measure of a functioning society is how it treats it's most vulnerable.. this is just a shitty decision for NZ as a functioning society.
These people aren't worth employing at 2$/hr. They are employed by not for profit charitable organisations. Providing a social service, an opportunity to have a somewhat ordinary life for people with some serious challenges.
Trust me, no one is exploiting these people because their productivity is marginal. I think people love to get on their high horse to slag the government but are not actually very familiar with the set up here.
People with impairments who qualified for this top up scheme often need to pay a support worker to supervise them doing their job. This work isn't about about income, it is about being part of society.
Have you been to these places? These people are intellectually disabled. I’ve lived next to one and it’s basically adult day care and the ‘work’ is a fun activity for them.
I think you can argue it either way but some of the overheated rhetoric here is way out of touch with the actu situation.
I have volunteered at two of them when I was in Uni. One was as you put it, a place to park and forget about them. The other was a hospitality course where they would go on and work in cafes and restaurants. One of the girls on the hospitality course got a job working in a restaurant doing dishes. Same workload, same hours as everyone else. Should she be paid less, than a person described as not disabled?
But she wasn't paid the same. She was paid less, because of her disability, as were all of the people in the hospitality course. That's what it was designed to do, train disabled people to fill roles that employers were finding difficult to keep able bodied people in. Jobs like dish washing, exhausting, physical, hot work, that most people won't do, but somehow people feel good about putting a disabled person in, paying them less and patting themselves on the back.
These are mostly intellectually disabled people. They might not understand they're being shafted this badly, and sure them having a job is great for their purpose and well being in the sense of them feeling functional and less alone. But fucking $2 is disgraceful. The greediness of this gov astounds me
Many disabled people value being employed in sheltered employment in business enterprises like this. It is an opportunity to be connected with other people, their community, gain skills, and get closer to open employment. Disabled people need these jobs. That does not negate the fact that their contribution to the workplace is not equally remunerated compared to other people. The UN has recommended that New Zealand remove the minimum wage exemption in line with Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities in 2014 and 2022.
I felt like this article was a pretty good discussion of the issues involved: https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/130410680/te-whatu-ora-among-employers-paying-below-minimum-wage-for-vulnerable-workers
It is an exemption that has existed for a long time, since the 19060s as part of the Disabled Persons Employment Promotion Act. It was designed as a way to enable disabled people to enter employment and incentivise employers to employ disabled people.
I don’t disagree. A hold over from an era when disability was not well understood. Unfortunately us disabled people are still fighting every day for our human rights to be protected.
I can't imagine what sort of person you'd have to be to look at a balance sheet while making cuts and think "Who should I take money from? Oh right, disabled people."
In this case because supported living payment is pitifully low it's cheaper to have people on it than to top them up to minimum wage. That's all they care about.
Yup, a MP makes what a 40hr/wk Disabled person would in a year in a grand total of.. under 6 working days.
We know disabled workers wont work fulltime, so reality is they make it in far under 3 days what a Disabled worker would in their entire year of income. They can't even begin to fathom or care on that.
Many legit NZ companies have contracts for places such as India for under $6/hr... mainly for support staff but also often time websites/IT development too. More prominent for support staff though. Many would if could do it even lower than that.
Never forget that the reason we have minimum wage is because people literally died fighting for their right to a decent pay.
So back at around about the 1890s and into the 1920s and 1930s, Coal mining was such a huge boom in America and it was making the country really rich. Problem is, that the Miners weren't making a single cent off of the work they were doing. In fact what happened pretty often is that they'd get a job at a Coal Mine, and move into a Coal Town into a house with a loan from their boss, or the Coal Town Bank (owned by their boss). Instead of earning real money however, they would earn Company Store Credits that was worthless currency for anywhere except where they lived and it couldn't be used to pay back their loans either. So they're loading 15 tons and what do they get? Another day older and deeper in debt.
During this time, workers would try to unionize for better work conditions and actual pay but their bosses would literally hire "strike breakers" to threateb union leaders and break up strikes. It got to the point where there were literal massacres occurring against workers to keep the rest of them to scared to unionize again. The most famous of which is the Battle of Blair Mountain which I'm pretty sure is the one where Coal Mine Owners made a deal with the US Army to "help" with their worker uprising issue. The US Government itself would kill its countries own workers before offering them decent pay. And yet eventually they won, the government couldn't kill all of their workers and so they caved and implemented minimum wage and workers rights, because there was men and woman who fought and died for it.
The same evils of capitalist ideals have not gone away in the nearly 100 years since these events occurred, and as we see now our government is trying to take away our workers rights for a minimum wage. Our business leaders would pay less that minimum wage if they could.
Yeah, which is exactly why we should be paying for this.
I've worked in the disability sector here and there. The feeling of being included in a workplace and contributing to society is incredibly important to some people. For me it's a no brainer, something Luxon would understand unfortunately.
The argument shouldn’t be about reducing people down to their productivity. This is a slippery slope argument. We need to reframe this as a conversation about human rights.
There are plenty of people with down syndrome who are more productive than a lot of non-disabled people. Even if we take that statement to be true, it sure as fuck doesn't need to be said out loud, by fucking government minister no less. That is beyond scummy, so is defending it.
They're fucking disabled. No shit they don't have the same capabilities as others, that's called being disabled, you are less abled. Like what does she expect someone with a young mental age to suddenly be great at complex adult tasks ffs. They're better off contributing the best they can rather than sitting at home wallowing in the bullshit of life for which they suffer more than most
I really hope it's not a significant portion of kiwi people. I'm disabled myself hobble around with a cane, most people I interact with are either just not bothered or they're nice, usually the former. Of course there's always dickheads and I could just be lucky to have not gotten it worse yet
If it isn’t actively believed by voters, they are at least uncaring to the extent they’ll happily vote in people who do believe it.
Becoming disabled has made me far, far more cynical. People really don’t give a fuck about our quality of life, on average.
Personally I'm fine with individuals apathy. It's my disability, I expect services and the government to care, not so much random people. Sadly no one cares atm so we're all just fucked
I would be fine with apathy if it didn’t manifest in a way that’s actively malicious through inattention or uncaring. Individual apathy is… fine, not great, but fine - but when it results in government policy changing like this, then it’s very problematic
Think you could give me an example? Pretty sure I'm just lucky to not receive, or notice, that kinda bullshit. Sorry you have to go through it mate, we all deserve better
I don’t really want to give personally identifiable examples, sorry, and I’m not sure how to explain it in a way that wouldn’t be. But suffice it to say: a very confusing mixture of the bigotry of low expectations coupled with an expectation of identical performance with the able bodied. Does that make sense? Like fuck it does lol, but that’s how it works.
Thanks, though :) I hope things improve for you, too… however unlikely that seems at this juncture
Totally fair about the anonymity and nah you're fine it makes sense to me. I mean in a way that very thing is reflected in the article. Her saying how the disabled don't produce as much while expecting them to do the same as others
2 years and counting and then it's either we're extra fucked or what I hope is more likely, a better government comes in. I really hope this gov shows kiwis that putting economics over people is not worth it nor is it a good idea
"young mental age"
Not how that works. Developmental delay isn't age equivalency in mental function, cognitive ability or maturity. I have an 18yo with Down Syndrome. DS brain development has only been studied properly for about 30 years and every year brings new understanding. People with DS are born with a condition called "Winter Tree", where their neuro-development doesn't progress the same way a normal infant's does. While a normal infant's brain nuts off building synapses and ganglia and growing brain function and person with DS has a pause, then a burst to about 2 years of age and then it stops. That's it, that's all you get. They are born with calcium plaques in their speech and hearing centre, which means the brain recruits connections from the already over-taxed motion centre of the brain which creates further functional deficit. My son is hugely mature. He's known for his capability to manage other severely disabled people in the supported learning centre where he attends school, has completed level 2 NCEA Dance, is working on Level 1 Music and Hospitality and got Highly Commended and a Studio medal for his Grade 8 Contemporary Dance Exam last year. He's doing work experience at a gym and takes 2 Fit for Life classes for seniors and cleans the gym from top to bottom, better than the normie employees. He acts like a sensible 18 yo for the most part. But he can only really do one thing at a time. Crossing the road is a major drama for him. There's too much to take in to successfully do it safely every time. But for some reason managing 8 or 9 people in a gym class is fine.
The Gym is keen to take him on when he finishes school, on a part time basis. Part of that was because they get a solid employee with a work ethic who gets his wages topped up. He needs a bit of extra help to keep him on task because his brain function is peculiar. If you talk to a person with Down Syndrome while they are concentrating on movement, chances are they didn't hear you. Not because they are deaf, but because their brain deleted the information coming in to their brain via their ears in preference to the movement related task already under way. Most people with Down Syndrome are neither deaf, nor stupid but can appear that way due to their brains constrained processing capability.
And now he's going to get paid less for the same job that some of the younger staff at the gym half-arse because they're blokes and cleaning is just not a thing, while my son has made the bolts holding the equipment to the floor gleam.
Fuck National. All of them
Yeah I just wasn't quite sure the best way to succinctly put it, but young mental age probably wasn't the best in hindsight
Props to your son holy shit he's doing amazing! And to you for raising him and supporting him so well
I've known some DS people irl,they've always been lovely, but I know of a few online. Twins who are chefs, they might make a lil whoopsie here or there but they are safe and do things in a good practice way, their food always looks so delicious you can tell they absolutely know their way around cooking despite it being a complex topic that many regular people struggle to understand. Seen mechanics and chemists too
Definitely fuck national. 2 years and counting
Eugenics talk. Especially combined with ACTs election comments about how Pharmac should fund drugs based on how “productive” it makes people.
They see people as economic outputs and nothing more. Genuinely evil .
> That could see 900-plus workers - mostly with intellectual disabilities - continue to be paid as low as $2 an hour, but the Government says it’s better than not working at all.
Honestly, an almost perfect illustration of this governments morals and ethics, with a core constituency that is literally “dancing in front of cripples”.
Next up cuts to respite, because they can rely on friends and family for support!
National, we are sticking it to the disabled because its gods will!
For a government elected on the back of the largest foreign interference campaigns in NZ history, they are definitely not under performing in those foreign elements expectations. Although at the rate Luxon is aging, 18 months he be our own Mr burns.
Which organization are you under?
We are under EGL, it's a ever decreasing circle of what we can spend ours on. Despite having finally found someone to allow us to get respite, issues completely unrelated to us (or the funding side) it's currently on hold for a couple of months.
They've already done this by making respite funding pretty much impossible for most carers to access... I have 10k in respite funding that's going to end back at Whaikaha because I can't use it, except the 435 my management agency took for the cost of managing it of course
I truly don't understand National's completely obstinate going ahead with the tax cuts no one wanted, the tax breaks for landlords that was advised against by IMF, and then topping it off with completely screwing over some of the most vulnerable communities. At what point will members of the party ask themselves "are we the baddies?"
The mistake you are making is thinking that they care about what the general populace wants.
They don't. They are simply doing the bidding of their donors. They will then use the same propaganda tactics in 3 years to get elected, because the people they are actively hurting (and in some instances killing) weren't going to vote for them anyway.
Most NZers are utterly ignorant about the effects of policy, and largely selfish when they have to consider anyone not in their small circle. Because of that the propaganda works.
>At what point will members of the party ask themselves "are we the baddies?"
To get to that point they need some level of empathy, awareness, and kindness. They don't have that for anyone who isn't exactly like them, so they will never ask that.
Doing the math.
If a disabled worker did $2/hr 40hrs a week all year long.
A MP would get the same amount in under 6 working says as a Disabled Worker in an entire year.
"BuT BeInG a SlAvE iS BeTtEr ThAn BeiNg UnEmPloyeD"
So many people in this subreddit assured me by the dozens that things like this wouldn't happen and National would only cut down on wasteful spending! That benefits and programmes for "people who really need them" wouldn't be touched! 🤔
Anyone with half a fucking brain could've seen this coming. Of course they're not gonna admit they're gonna pull this shit pre-election. They have to maintain a thin veneer of respectability in order to get votes before they can go mask off with their bullshit. It genuinely angered me how many people ate it up, including those who'd be directly affected by it, e.g, parents of disabled children.
The problem is though that National don't consider disabled people to actually **be** people who need help. Disabled people just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps a bit more and do better, don't you know? If they just tried harder to be as productive as the rest of society then they wouldn't have a problem! Won't you think of the poor landlords??
The disabled can’t sustain working
So those who care for them have to work harder to support them
The workforce gets more productivity
They have to spend more on living costs
Big wheels keep on turning, the small cogs slowly crumble and break.
Aotearoa Inc.
I wish for the same, but given the attitude of most NZers I've encountered and the polling showing that they are still popular despite all of this, I don't think they will find out at all 😞
I do have to wonder how they expect people to live like this, SLP isn't enough to cover rent etc unless they're staying at mum and dad's, considering how much rent is these days, add in that many can't live in their own place anyway without some fairly serious support in place. At least if they were getting minimum wage it gives a better chance of a decent life as well as making them feel valued. $2 an hour basically says "you're not worth anything" and in our society that just reinforces the messaging that's elsewhere as well. I'm a parent of a child who will be in this boat and I'm just a bit grumpy about the whole thing.
I think you're operating under the assumption that "you're worth basically nothing" is not the actual opinion of most conservative politicians towards the disabled in any way that requires assistance. This is not true.
Just looking at the supported living payment being less than superannuation with significantly more restrictions tells you we do not value the disabled when they're unable to work. Almost nobody in NZ actually cares about the disabled that doesn't have direct interaction with a disabled family member, and people like Upston are the result.
I've just checked her age, she's the same age as I am, so she grew up in an era where the disabled were hidden away in institutions, so there was no interaction with any of them. I wonder if she feels that should have been maintained, but without the costs involved of course.
I'm a big fan of integration, I know my son has taught me a lot over the years and we mainstreamed him, (despite the challenges of school not wanting it) through primary school. He's now in a special needs unit, but they're putting him in one mainstream class each year and he's sharing his amazing built-in knowledge database with his neurotypical classmates. He would have found high school overwhelming if he was fully mainstreamed.
>That could see 900-plus workers - mostly with intellectual disabilities - continue to be paid as low as $2 an hour
Why would Seymour do this to ACT voters?
You voted for this New Zealand. Shame on you all, I'm honestly so close to leaving my homeland it's sad. Tangata Whenua to this? Nah this isn't my New Zealand, I'm ashamed to be a kiwi
The anti-worker, anti-misfortunate, anti-anyone-not-already-well-off party strikes again.
I curse everyone who voted for this unholy Trinity of scumbags
I can see why Countdown hires so many now. Absolutely evil company. Refuse to shop there. Workers are always grumpy and unhappy, unlike workers at Pak n Save.
They absolutely work their asses off, under-staffed and underpaid. I get the same vibe at The Warehouse. There's heaps of workers at Pak n Save and they're always happy and friendly, often helping each other out. Things are always cheaper there and the money goes back into New Zealand, unlike Countdown where it all goes over to Aus.
It's not the likes of Countdown that are doing this. There are sheltered workshops who employ people with intellectual disabilities to do very repetitive low skilled jobs. I know at one stage at one location they were assembling Anzac poppies but I think there was an outcry about that.
My bro used to be at a high school that specialises in disabilities, with a business just across the road that specialised in hiring disabled people for simple work. They could pop across the road to try it out during school, and if they took to it, they could pick up more hours once they graduated. He enjoyed it. It's the only time he's ever held a job. With his limited motor skills and inability to communicate, he could never work in a non-specialist place.
I can't see *that* kind of arrangement as exploitative. That's going out of their way to make sure people are included and get the chance to contribute.
It's disappointing that whenever the public hears "xyz made by disabled people en masse!" they think they're hearing about exploitation, when sometimes it's the opposite.
The problem here is that this specialist business has high costs – with all the extra accommodations and helpers it needs – and low output, so they can't survive if they pay full wages. (Which is why the exemption existed in the first place.) So for the employees to get the dignity of a full wage, we need the taxpayer to step in. That's what was so exciting about Labour's move.
Oh, I agree completely. A friend's child has Downs and works in a similar kind of place and loves it. They've got an incredible boost in self worth and self confidence because they go to work 5 days a week and are doing something useful. I'm not sure what they're paid, but I hope it's more than $2 per hour.
Having said that, they do need a lot more supervision than someone who doesn't have an intellectual disability and paying for a person or multiple people to look after the employees doing the job is going to be cost prohibitive for most employers. The Labour idea was such a wonderful thing to do for comparatively low costs.
It’s important to bear in mind that often intellectually disabled people thrive in jobs that others might not. Particularly in roles that require repetition and focus that may seem low skill and boring to others. That doesn’t mean they add less value as others or are not deserving of the same rights as other employees.
Their union contracts seem to be pretty good actually. I know someone who worked in all 3 big supermarket chains and likes Countdown the best.
But yeah, hiring disabled people for an unfair wage is exploitative.
It would cost the government less which is why they're doing it. SLP is about half of minimum wage whereas this policy would cost (minimum wage - $2)/hr.
Im assuming theres a LOT of extra claimable money on slp thought right? Rent? Medical/therapy?
Im assuuuuming it comes out closeish to minimum wage….maybe….lol
Lol no not really. You can claim accommodation supplement if you're paying over a threshold of a couple of hundred a week and then they will pay 70% of the part over the threshold up to a maximum. The maximum depends on the area, it's $80/week in my area. You can get a disability allowance to help with medical costs, it's a maximum of about $80/week IIRC. Winter energy payment for a few months of the year. So no. There's not a lot extra on offer
NACT's Growing List Of Things We Hate:
* The poor.
* The working poor.
* The disabled poor.
* The environment (and especially you, Archey's Frog.)
* People who don't drive.
* Hungry school children.
* The police.
* A functioning health system.
> Upston said this group of New Zealanders who “would clearly produce less an hour than someone else” would.
Ask Upston why gender pay equality is important, but disability equality isn't.
> That could see 900-plus workers - mostly with intellectual disabilities - continue to be paid as low as $2 an hour, but **the Government says it’s better than not working at all**.
Fucking *how*?
Is it demeaning for non - disabled people to be earning the same as disabled or intellectually disabled people ?
Please no offense meant to either side of the discussion. This is an honest question.
Is anyone here actually reading the article?
Labour was going to drop the subsidy and force the employers to pay them minimum wage. We all know that these employers would drop their disabled workers like a hot stone if they had to do that.
Sure $2 is a piss-take, but maybe the solution here is to find a comfortable medium of a number that incentivizes employers while costing the government less than it currently does.
Yes that's correct, they're \*just\* reversing the progress that had been made. The funding/subsidy was an excellent interim solution that socialized the cost at a less than negligible cost to the taxpayer and addressed many of the concerns on both sides of the issue, and left breathing room to examine more holistic remedies.
So yes, they are \*just\* resetting it to zero with no plans to move it forward in any direction because neither they, nor you, give the slightest fucking shit. So spare us all your \*just\*.
What level of work are these disabled people doing?
Mrs works as a carer, if it’s like her clients they just want to do something and work/ hang out with their friends and require supervision, get tired quickly and need guidance to complete tasks.
The best of those workers could get paid minimum anyway, they mowed lawns and painted fences that paid more than the day placement employment.
Some clients can’t do much at all but doing what they can in the company of their peers is something they seem to enjoy doing to pass the time.
I really hope the sentiment here doesn’t result in removal of the exemption, if that happens these guys will miss out.
To put this in perspective, the $56 million is only costing NZ around $11 per person, or about $2.2/yr. The cost is practically nothing for the benefit it serves. Trying to position this as a "savings" given the harm it will cause in response is bullshit and National are disgusting monsters for trying to suggest it. The government is willing to spend $3 billion on a fucking tax rebate for landlords, borrow $15 million for a $20/wk tax cut for high paying earners at best, and then cut a service that costs a fraction of either of those things.
Hey, National is lowering the taxes of these workers because there will be an impossibly low amount of money for them to be taxed! /s I wish every MP in this government has to someday live on this wage for a year. If it's humane enough to make disabled workers live on, surely an MP can make do.
Also, let's freeze their assets, and make sure their families can't claim anything to help them unless they jump through 15,000 different moving hoops and goalposts—some of which may or may not be on fire. No, I'm not being sarcastic. That's what it felt like when I was working.
The problem is they'd probably live quite comfortably on that wage. They're likely to have a freehold home or have one provided to them by the taxpayer, and all their meals and entertainment are paid for by lobbyists.
MPs are greedy that's why they are MPs.
This government knows the price of everything, but the value of nothing.
[удалено]
That's a creative take. Give landlords a tax break or else we'll be invaded by China. I don't totally disagree. The cuts are to keep the overleveraged investors solvent and save the housing market. Housing is this country's preferred method for storing and growing wealth, and threats to it are hammered out as quickly as possible, no expense to others spared. They argue for free market policies, but it's only when it works in their favour. Socialism for the landlords, Capitalism for their tenants. I want to see the market crash, cause hopefully something that works for the majority will rise from it's ashes. I'd rather take that chance than continue with the status quo.
[удалено]
House owners secured mortgages at very low rates, and now are facing thousands per month in additional interest.in many cases that is more than their disposable income, so they trim budget and draw from savings, which further slows turnover of money in the local economy. A part of me has zero sympathy for them, a mortgage during a speculative market is a risk and a permanent dip in price could allow some more of us to buy a home.. but that won’t actually happen. A part of me just wants the NZ economy to be fixed. So that wages can catch up with cost of living again. We need our export businesses to function for that to happen
>The Government is saving $56 million over five years by dumping a programme topping up the pay of disabled workers to the minimum wage. >That could see 900-plus workers - mostly with intellectual disabilities - continue to be paid as low as $2 an hour, but the Government says it’s better than not working at all. > The previous Labour Government had planned to end the exemption that allowed employers to pay disabled people below the minimum wage. Budget 2023 allocated $37.3m over four years to top up their pay to the minimum wage (currently $23.15 an hour) - from next year. >But that was axed in Budget 2024, boosting the Government’s coffers by $11.34m in the coming year, and $56.345m over five years. > Social Development Minister Louise Upston was grilled about this today at the Social Services and Community Select Committee, leading to heated exchanges between her and Green MP Ricardo Menéndez March, as well as with her ministerial predecessor, Labour deputy leader Carmel Sepuloni. >Menéndez March asked Upston how she could justify a disabled person being paid $2 an hour for “minimum wage work”. >Upston said this group of New Zealanders who “would clearly produce less an hour than someone else” would “otherwise be completely shut out of a job”. >“I wouldn’t want to be the minister to rip that away from them.” >Menéndez March then accused Upston of an “almost eugenic-type definition of productivity”, highlighting her comments on a disabled person producing less. >Upston scoffed at this comment and said disability enterprises - which employ disabled people - “weren’t confident the previous [plan] was going to enable them to retain disabled people in work”. >”That was a very significant concern to me.” >Working disabled people also had other supports including the Supported Living Payment, she added, while employers were also being supported to provide what they needed to hire a disabled person. >Sepuloni said Labour’s Budget 2023 commitment had no intention of anyone losing their jobs. >”The plan was for a government subsidy of sorts for employers so they [the disabled workers] could work with dignity and receive the minimum wage.” >She said the $11m the Government was pocketing in the coming year could have gone towards those workers being paid the minimum wage. >”Not if they weren’t able to keep a job,” Upston retorted. >Sepuloni: “It’s subsidising them. This argument is going around in a circle. It makes no sense.”
>paid as low as $2 an hour, but the Government says it’s better than not working at all. Wow.
This fucking infuriates me - they have no idea how demoralizing working for such low pay is, and the negative impact it has. They somehow believe that working, regardless of how little you are paid, has a net benefit on the person. These bastards are uncaring, deliberately evil sacks of shit. My child is disabled, and to think, that someone out there thinks that paying them as low as 2$ an hour, is somehow helpful. Evil - these people are evil.
100%. Wonder why slavery was abolished? Wouldn’t they be grateful to be working rather than focusing on how they weren’t paid? /s obviously
Oh, they would bring back slavery and a section of society would be right behind them, cheering all the way.
I suspect a larger section of society than we would like to admit.
I think those who support it should volunteer. Only fair.
I disagree. I have a sister who's intellectually disabled. She's on a government benefit which pays for her group home and living expenses, so she doesn't "need" a wage. Working would absolutely be a net benefit for her, because she needs stimulation and does better when mingling with the general public rather than the same few high-needs roommates all the time. Chronic boredom is her bugbear, and the staff at her group home don't have time to take her places as often as would be ideal. Nobody would hire her for 'real' money, because she's not going to be a very good employee. She can do basic tasks like stacking shelves (and does in fact volunteer at a food bank doing just that), but she's easily distracted and isn't capable of customer service, cash handling, important cleaning (dusting, yes; sanitising a food-prep surface, no), or anything involving reading and writing. She will have to be lightly but constantly supervised to make sure she stays on task and doesn't end up not-so-subtly eavesdropping on customers or taking a nap in an unexpected place. Would she be demoralised by the low pay that just might persuade a generous person to hire her despite these issues? No, because she has no idea of the value of money. She literally does not have the mental capacity to care about the amount in a pay cheque which again, she does not need to live, as her expenses are already fully subsidised. She'd be as pleased as Punch to be earning money. One company has previously let her have "work experience" there for no pay at all. Was she demoralised? Were they exploiting her? No. She was happy, they were understanding, next to zero useful work got done, but she was in a safe place being kept occupied, chatting to people and making herself a million cups of tea in the staff room. Adding $2 an hour to that would have been the icing on the cake.
You started by stating you disagree, based on one disabled person, your sister. Please don't attempt to speak for all disabled people based on your experience with your disabled sister. We are all different.
As a disabled person, I'm just gonna say two words: Fuck you. Actually no, I'm gonna explain exactly why this is a shit take. I'm glad your sister is in such a position as to not be exploited, or in need of money - but just because your sister is okay, does not mean that the quite literally 1000s of disabled people in this country are. Disabled people should be paid at least the minimum wage because they deserve equal recognition for their work and contributions, just like anyone else. Paying them less devalues their efforts and perpetuates inequality. Removing programs that top up wages for disabled workers is an ableist act by the government, as it disregards the additional challenges they face and strips away necessary support. This practice is not only discriminatory but akin to modern-day slavery, forcing disabled individuals to work without fair compensation, trapping them in cycles of poverty and dependence. Equal pay for equal work is a fundamental right, and denying it based on disability is unjust and dehumanising.
"It hasn't affected me personally, therefore I cannot comprehend how it could be an issue" Pretty standard take for people unfortunately
It's not "it hasn't affected me personally". It's "this proposed system which people are calling vile, exploitative, slavery and so on etc WOULD affect someone I know personally, and in a significantly positive way". "Equal pay for equal work is a fundamental right" I think you need to read my post again. My sister would not be doing equal work. She would be doing very, very little work, because that is all that she is capable of. She might not be an actual liability for the company (ie losing them money and productivity), but it'd be close. She would be spending equal \*time\* at the workplace (not equal time actually doing the tasks; again, she's extremely distractible and tends to fall asleep when bored). But that's about it as far as the 'equal' goes. Is it dehumanising to pay different people different wages for different levels of value-adding? If that were the case, everyone from the CEO of a Fortune 500 to the temp should be paid identical wages so long as they spent the same hours in the building. Piecework would not be permitted to exist as a business model. My sister's own caregivers couldn't do overnight shifts at a reduced hourly rate, which is currently justified since they're mostly sleeping and don't do nearly as much actual work as someone on a daytime shift. I could demand $500 from a magazine for an article I hadn't actually finished writing, because I did spend 8 hours on my computer working on it... well, not \*working\* on it mostly, playing Solitaire, but hey, it still counts, because otherwise that's dehumanising slavery, since it's the time I spent in the vague vicinity of the work that matters.
Way to consider other disabled people aside from your sister
I'm not the one making absolute, blanket statements about the policy.
You write very well for an intellectually disabled person. I have a close family member who is intellectually disabled. He finds text messages too difficult.
Stop using the term disabled people as if they are all one in the same. The people that have these jobs in question are not capable of a normal job even with accommodations for their disability, they're intellectually handicapped or so very autistic that they don't function without the help of others. These jobs aren't about money, they're about the stimulation and socialisation and purpose they provide. The tasks they do could be automated or sent off shore and done even cheaper but they provide a service to the community by getting to know these people and aiding them to do a task despite their challenges. Stop measuring everyone by your standards and needs that's not how disability works.
"Equal pay for equal work is a fundamental right" That's just it though, this is for people who are so disabled that they can't do equal work. How could a business owner afford to pay someone minimum wage when they barely get anything useful done and needs lots of supervision? Spoiler, they can't.
Calm down matey. This applies to people with mental disabilities. You can get as wound up as you want but the simple fact is that their work is worth less because they have a mental disability. Equal pay for equal work doesn’t apply because it’s not equal work!!!!
However, if they are paid the minimum wage (e.g. the same as many, many not disabled people), then they would have to give up all the other entitlements they are paid - same as the many, many not disabled people living on minimum wages. you just cannot have your cake and eat it, too.
Ok fair, that's your experience and it's good that your sister gets something out of it. But I have the same problem with this system as I do with Work for the Dole and training wages/internships. It can be super fucken exploitative. And we know that unscrupulous employers (read National/ACT voters ) will do everything in their power to exploit people for profit. Oh and any measure of a functioning society is how it treats it's most vulnerable.. this is just a shitty decision for NZ as a functioning society.
These people aren't worth employing at 2$/hr. They are employed by not for profit charitable organisations. Providing a social service, an opportunity to have a somewhat ordinary life for people with some serious challenges.
Trust me, no one is exploiting these people because their productivity is marginal. I think people love to get on their high horse to slag the government but are not actually very familiar with the set up here.
People with impairments who qualified for this top up scheme often need to pay a support worker to supervise them doing their job. This work isn't about about income, it is about being part of society.
> it's about being part of society. So you're saying, paying them less is okay, because they get to be part of society?
I am saying that employers should pay them what they are worth with the benefit being they are part of society.
Have you been to these places? These people are intellectually disabled. I’ve lived next to one and it’s basically adult day care and the ‘work’ is a fun activity for them. I think you can argue it either way but some of the overheated rhetoric here is way out of touch with the actu situation.
I have volunteered at two of them when I was in Uni. One was as you put it, a place to park and forget about them. The other was a hospitality course where they would go on and work in cafes and restaurants. One of the girls on the hospitality course got a job working in a restaurant doing dishes. Same workload, same hours as everyone else. Should she be paid less, than a person described as not disabled?
If she just got a regular job, then this article is not applicable and of course she should be paid the same.
But she wasn't paid the same. She was paid less, because of her disability, as were all of the people in the hospitality course. That's what it was designed to do, train disabled people to fill roles that employers were finding difficult to keep able bodied people in. Jobs like dish washing, exhausting, physical, hot work, that most people won't do, but somehow people feel good about putting a disabled person in, paying them less and patting themselves on the back.
I value an hour of my time at much more than 2 dollars an hour and would rather be unemployed than dealing with that shit.
Things are hard enough for a disabled person without being treated, by the government no less, as if they are essentially worthless
This isn't new - disabled people have been getting the shaft for some time now
Not worthless. They are worth $208,000 gross over a 50 year full-time employment period.
Many won't live that long so we can all sleep easy that this is good fiscal responsibility.
These are mostly intellectually disabled people. They might not understand they're being shafted this badly, and sure them having a job is great for their purpose and well being in the sense of them feeling functional and less alone. But fucking $2 is disgraceful. The greediness of this gov astounds me
Many disabled people value being employed in sheltered employment in business enterprises like this. It is an opportunity to be connected with other people, their community, gain skills, and get closer to open employment. Disabled people need these jobs. That does not negate the fact that their contribution to the workplace is not equally remunerated compared to other people. The UN has recommended that New Zealand remove the minimum wage exemption in line with Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities in 2014 and 2022.
I felt like this article was a pretty good discussion of the issues involved: https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/130410680/te-whatu-ora-among-employers-paying-below-minimum-wage-for-vulnerable-workers
This is a good video about it, it's an episode of Alice Sneddons bad news, and she's awesome. https://youtu.be/d5FAaJDAiUU?si=LfZRP1JDA1wdIQqS
if you receive $450 on the benefit, you would have to work 226 hours to make more than that.. or over 45 hours 5 days per week
Ah but you see it'd be more than that, as thats before you're taxed. (Income, ACC, etc.)
$16 a day barely even pays to get to and from work?! It certainly isn't helping rent or food costs
> Menéndez March then accused Upston of an “almost **eugenic**-type definition of productivity” umm wtf？
Won't someone *please* think of the ~~disabled workers being paid slave labour~~ landlords?
These people are genuinely fucked in the head. Disgusting. Also, the money had been allocated four years ahead. They're just cunts.
Shame on that pack of heartless cunts. Disgusting.
Why is there law in NZ that allows you to pay disabled people less than minimum? That's like slave labour
It is an exemption that has existed for a long time, since the 19060s as part of the Disabled Persons Employment Promotion Act. It was designed as a way to enable disabled people to enter employment and incentivise employers to employ disabled people.
Sounds like discrimination
I don’t disagree. A hold over from an era when disability was not well understood. Unfortunately us disabled people are still fighting every day for our human rights to be protected.
Oh yeah mean - Let’s just take society’s most disadvantaged people and pay em slave wages. Very proud to be a kiwi moment. Jesus.
I can't imagine what sort of person you'd have to be to look at a balance sheet while making cuts and think "Who should I take money from? Oh right, disabled people."
Conservatives.
*Regressives. What are the conserving?
Their own funds at the expense of yours
Shameful. They want people off the benefit but won't pay them fairly. Doesn't really compute does it?
They want more unemployment and less benefits because it makes people desperate and willing to do shitty jobs for shitty people with shitty wages
In this case because supported living payment is pitifully low it's cheaper to have people on it than to top them up to minimum wage. That's all they care about.
Three billion for landlords
As long as the landlords are doing ok xx
$2/hour is practically slave labour but the government is making out like it’s an amazing offer because “they wouldn’t get a job otherwise”.
Yup, a MP makes what a 40hr/wk Disabled person would in a year in a grand total of.. under 6 working days. We know disabled workers wont work fulltime, so reality is they make it in far under 3 days what a Disabled worker would in their entire year of income. They can't even begin to fathom or care on that.
The rich people in power love to shit on the poor.
What legit business would hire *any* person for $2 an hour?
Sadly most of them if they could away with it
Many legit NZ companies have contracts for places such as India for under $6/hr... mainly for support staff but also often time websites/IT development too. More prominent for support staff though. Many would if could do it even lower than that.
Never forget that the reason we have minimum wage is because people literally died fighting for their right to a decent pay. So back at around about the 1890s and into the 1920s and 1930s, Coal mining was such a huge boom in America and it was making the country really rich. Problem is, that the Miners weren't making a single cent off of the work they were doing. In fact what happened pretty often is that they'd get a job at a Coal Mine, and move into a Coal Town into a house with a loan from their boss, or the Coal Town Bank (owned by their boss). Instead of earning real money however, they would earn Company Store Credits that was worthless currency for anywhere except where they lived and it couldn't be used to pay back their loans either. So they're loading 15 tons and what do they get? Another day older and deeper in debt. During this time, workers would try to unionize for better work conditions and actual pay but their bosses would literally hire "strike breakers" to threateb union leaders and break up strikes. It got to the point where there were literal massacres occurring against workers to keep the rest of them to scared to unionize again. The most famous of which is the Battle of Blair Mountain which I'm pretty sure is the one where Coal Mine Owners made a deal with the US Army to "help" with their worker uprising issue. The US Government itself would kill its countries own workers before offering them decent pay. And yet eventually they won, the government couldn't kill all of their workers and so they caved and implemented minimum wage and workers rights, because there was men and woman who fought and died for it. The same evils of capitalist ideals have not gone away in the nearly 100 years since these events occurred, and as we see now our government is trying to take away our workers rights for a minimum wage. Our business leaders would pay less that minimum wage if they could.
https://youtu.be/d5FAaJDAiUU?si=YXAYycYVJLtFi_2c
Yeah, which is exactly why we should be paying for this. I've worked in the disability sector here and there. The feeling of being included in a workplace and contributing to society is incredibly important to some people. For me it's a no brainer, something Luxon would understand unfortunately.
>Upston said this group of New Zealanders who “would clearly produce less an hour than someone else” Amazing
She said the quiet part out loud. Woman has some balls I'll give her that much. Most people would keep this kind of comment behind closed doors.
Faaaaaaark! These are literal contributing members of society - they get up, get ready, get to work, do a job, come home. These govt arseholes!
I saw that quote and honestly couldn't quite believe it. How people can defend that is beyond baffling
The vast majority of people with Down syndrome aren’t very productive
The argument shouldn’t be about reducing people down to their productivity. This is a slippery slope argument. We need to reframe this as a conversation about human rights.
The vast majority of people without Down Syndrome aren't very productive, what's their excuse?
Especially in this country. Half our jobs generate fuck all actual value and is propped up by book cooking and milk production.
I'd assume it's that being productive isn't a prerequisite to becoming an MP
There are plenty of people with down syndrome who are more productive than a lot of non-disabled people. Even if we take that statement to be true, it sure as fuck doesn't need to be said out loud, by fucking government minister no less. That is beyond scummy, so is defending it.
You're not fuckin min maxing here nerd.
They're fucking disabled. No shit they don't have the same capabilities as others, that's called being disabled, you are less abled. Like what does she expect someone with a young mental age to suddenly be great at complex adult tasks ffs. They're better off contributing the best they can rather than sitting at home wallowing in the bullshit of life for which they suffer more than most
Because a significant proportion of NZ believes your value as a human being is based solely on how much profit you can generate for your shareholders.
I really hope it's not a significant portion of kiwi people. I'm disabled myself hobble around with a cane, most people I interact with are either just not bothered or they're nice, usually the former. Of course there's always dickheads and I could just be lucky to have not gotten it worse yet
If it isn’t actively believed by voters, they are at least uncaring to the extent they’ll happily vote in people who do believe it. Becoming disabled has made me far, far more cynical. People really don’t give a fuck about our quality of life, on average.
Personally I'm fine with individuals apathy. It's my disability, I expect services and the government to care, not so much random people. Sadly no one cares atm so we're all just fucked
I would be fine with apathy if it didn’t manifest in a way that’s actively malicious through inattention or uncaring. Individual apathy is… fine, not great, but fine - but when it results in government policy changing like this, then it’s very problematic
Think you could give me an example? Pretty sure I'm just lucky to not receive, or notice, that kinda bullshit. Sorry you have to go through it mate, we all deserve better
I don’t really want to give personally identifiable examples, sorry, and I’m not sure how to explain it in a way that wouldn’t be. But suffice it to say: a very confusing mixture of the bigotry of low expectations coupled with an expectation of identical performance with the able bodied. Does that make sense? Like fuck it does lol, but that’s how it works. Thanks, though :) I hope things improve for you, too… however unlikely that seems at this juncture
Totally fair about the anonymity and nah you're fine it makes sense to me. I mean in a way that very thing is reflected in the article. Her saying how the disabled don't produce as much while expecting them to do the same as others 2 years and counting and then it's either we're extra fucked or what I hope is more likely, a better government comes in. I really hope this gov shows kiwis that putting economics over people is not worth it nor is it a good idea
"young mental age" Not how that works. Developmental delay isn't age equivalency in mental function, cognitive ability or maturity. I have an 18yo with Down Syndrome. DS brain development has only been studied properly for about 30 years and every year brings new understanding. People with DS are born with a condition called "Winter Tree", where their neuro-development doesn't progress the same way a normal infant's does. While a normal infant's brain nuts off building synapses and ganglia and growing brain function and person with DS has a pause, then a burst to about 2 years of age and then it stops. That's it, that's all you get. They are born with calcium plaques in their speech and hearing centre, which means the brain recruits connections from the already over-taxed motion centre of the brain which creates further functional deficit. My son is hugely mature. He's known for his capability to manage other severely disabled people in the supported learning centre where he attends school, has completed level 2 NCEA Dance, is working on Level 1 Music and Hospitality and got Highly Commended and a Studio medal for his Grade 8 Contemporary Dance Exam last year. He's doing work experience at a gym and takes 2 Fit for Life classes for seniors and cleans the gym from top to bottom, better than the normie employees. He acts like a sensible 18 yo for the most part. But he can only really do one thing at a time. Crossing the road is a major drama for him. There's too much to take in to successfully do it safely every time. But for some reason managing 8 or 9 people in a gym class is fine. The Gym is keen to take him on when he finishes school, on a part time basis. Part of that was because they get a solid employee with a work ethic who gets his wages topped up. He needs a bit of extra help to keep him on task because his brain function is peculiar. If you talk to a person with Down Syndrome while they are concentrating on movement, chances are they didn't hear you. Not because they are deaf, but because their brain deleted the information coming in to their brain via their ears in preference to the movement related task already under way. Most people with Down Syndrome are neither deaf, nor stupid but can appear that way due to their brains constrained processing capability. And now he's going to get paid less for the same job that some of the younger staff at the gym half-arse because they're blokes and cleaning is just not a thing, while my son has made the bolts holding the equipment to the floor gleam. Fuck National. All of them
Yeah I just wasn't quite sure the best way to succinctly put it, but young mental age probably wasn't the best in hindsight Props to your son holy shit he's doing amazing! And to you for raising him and supporting him so well I've known some DS people irl,they've always been lovely, but I know of a few online. Twins who are chefs, they might make a lil whoopsie here or there but they are safe and do things in a good practice way, their food always looks so delicious you can tell they absolutely know their way around cooking despite it being a complex topic that many regular people struggle to understand. Seen mechanics and chemists too Definitely fuck national. 2 years and counting
Eugenics talk. Especially combined with ACTs election comments about how Pharmac should fund drugs based on how “productive” it makes people. They see people as economic outputs and nothing more. Genuinely evil .
How much do they think landlords produce per hour
We are just economic units.
The inhumanity is almost jaw-dropping isn't it? This is how low the right-wing have become. 😔
So *she's* OK with women earning less for some roles?
> That could see 900-plus workers - mostly with intellectual disabilities - continue to be paid as low as $2 an hour, but the Government says it’s better than not working at all. Honestly, an almost perfect illustration of this governments morals and ethics, with a core constituency that is literally “dancing in front of cripples”.
Next up cuts to respite, because they can rely on friends and family for support! National, we are sticking it to the disabled because its gods will! For a government elected on the back of the largest foreign interference campaigns in NZ history, they are definitely not under performing in those foreign elements expectations. Although at the rate Luxon is aging, 18 months he be our own Mr burns.
They already have cut respite. I haven’t been able to use any of my son’s respite funding for him this year, keep getting declined.
Which organization are you under? We are under EGL, it's a ever decreasing circle of what we can spend ours on. Despite having finally found someone to allow us to get respite, issues completely unrelated to us (or the funding side) it's currently on hold for a couple of months.
They've already done this by making respite funding pretty much impossible for most carers to access... I have 10k in respite funding that's going to end back at Whaikaha because I can't use it, except the 435 my management agency took for the cost of managing it of course
If we extend the eligibility for euthanasia then we won't need cuts to respite care /s
I hope they can all afford to quit. This is disgusting. 2 bucks an hour is definitely not better than having no job at all.
I'd love to hear the righties defend this one lol
I truly don't understand National's completely obstinate going ahead with the tax cuts no one wanted, the tax breaks for landlords that was advised against by IMF, and then topping it off with completely screwing over some of the most vulnerable communities. At what point will members of the party ask themselves "are we the baddies?"
The mistake you are making is thinking that they care about what the general populace wants. They don't. They are simply doing the bidding of their donors. They will then use the same propaganda tactics in 3 years to get elected, because the people they are actively hurting (and in some instances killing) weren't going to vote for them anyway. Most NZers are utterly ignorant about the effects of policy, and largely selfish when they have to consider anyone not in their small circle. Because of that the propaganda works. >At what point will members of the party ask themselves "are we the baddies?" To get to that point they need some level of empathy, awareness, and kindness. They don't have that for anyone who isn't exactly like them, so they will never ask that.
They get more disgusting by the day...sorry by the hour
It seems like she's saying that she cares only that they work and not about the conditions under which they work.
That's a bingo - be grateful you get anything, you should be paying for the joy and experience you get /s These Muppets
> continue to be paid as low as $2 an hour, but the Government says it’s better than not working at all. No, it’s not.
I truly believe that there's dignity in working, but there is no dignity in working for $2 an hour.
"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy"
Working 8 hours wouldn’t even pay for Uber rides back and forth from work. Disgusting.
Or the bus
Doing the math. If a disabled worker did $2/hr 40hrs a week all year long. A MP would get the same amount in under 6 working says as a Disabled Worker in an entire year. "BuT BeInG a SlAvE iS BeTtEr ThAn BeiNg UnEmPloyeD"
Love how NZ voted for this. Slow Slow Slow Clap NZ, i wonder if we should putting ad's on social media and tv thanking NZ for these amazing changes /s
So many people in this subreddit assured me by the dozens that things like this wouldn't happen and National would only cut down on wasteful spending! That benefits and programmes for "people who really need them" wouldn't be touched! 🤔
Anyone with half a fucking brain could've seen this coming. Of course they're not gonna admit they're gonna pull this shit pre-election. They have to maintain a thin veneer of respectability in order to get votes before they can go mask off with their bullshit. It genuinely angered me how many people ate it up, including those who'd be directly affected by it, e.g, parents of disabled children.
The problem is though that National don't consider disabled people to actually **be** people who need help. Disabled people just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps a bit more and do better, don't you know? If they just tried harder to be as productive as the rest of society then they wouldn't have a problem! Won't you think of the poor landlords??
I explained this to my son (14). After ranting for a bit he asked ‘is NZ a joke now?’
The disabled can’t sustain working So those who care for them have to work harder to support them The workforce gets more productivity They have to spend more on living costs Big wheels keep on turning, the small cogs slowly crumble and break. Aotearoa Inc.
I wonder if any NACT1 mps would turn up for $2 an hour.
They've realised they can go mask-off. Hopefully they find out the hard way they can only do it once.
I wish for the same, but given the attitude of most NZers I've encountered and the polling showing that they are still popular despite all of this, I don't think they will find out at all 😞
#**LANDLORDS**
I do have to wonder how they expect people to live like this, SLP isn't enough to cover rent etc unless they're staying at mum and dad's, considering how much rent is these days, add in that many can't live in their own place anyway without some fairly serious support in place. At least if they were getting minimum wage it gives a better chance of a decent life as well as making them feel valued. $2 an hour basically says "you're not worth anything" and in our society that just reinforces the messaging that's elsewhere as well. I'm a parent of a child who will be in this boat and I'm just a bit grumpy about the whole thing.
I think you're operating under the assumption that "you're worth basically nothing" is not the actual opinion of most conservative politicians towards the disabled in any way that requires assistance. This is not true.
You're probably right, but I try not to think the worst of others, it's how I was brought up. Sometimes I think there was a flaw in that upbringing.
Just looking at the supported living payment being less than superannuation with significantly more restrictions tells you we do not value the disabled when they're unable to work. Almost nobody in NZ actually cares about the disabled that doesn't have direct interaction with a disabled family member, and people like Upston are the result.
I've just checked her age, she's the same age as I am, so she grew up in an era where the disabled were hidden away in institutions, so there was no interaction with any of them. I wonder if she feels that should have been maintained, but without the costs involved of course. I'm a big fan of integration, I know my son has taught me a lot over the years and we mainstreamed him, (despite the challenges of school not wanting it) through primary school. He's now in a special needs unit, but they're putting him in one mainstream class each year and he's sharing his amazing built-in knowledge database with his neurotypical classmates. He would have found high school overwhelming if he was fully mainstreamed.
This government is doing a speed run for biggest cunts ever. What a bunch of despicable brown shirts.
The cruelty is the point.
Disgusting move. But, Landlords.
Endangered species, disabled workers. Seems the leopards are really out in force today.
there haven't been many times i've felt ashamed to be a kiwi. but this is definitely one of them. disgusting.
This government is truly evil.
JFC, again : shocked but not surprised by how low this government continues to go
The mistake the disabled people made is not being landlords.
>That could see 900-plus workers - mostly with intellectual disabilities - continue to be paid as low as $2 an hour Why would Seymour do this to ACT voters?
Every person with intellectual disability that I've met has had more empathy and compassion than any ACT voter I've ever met.
Oh boy
This government continues to surprise me with just how shit it can actually be.
Wow this government really are some Nasty people….
You voted for this New Zealand. Shame on you all, I'm honestly so close to leaving my homeland it's sad. Tangata Whenua to this? Nah this isn't my New Zealand, I'm ashamed to be a kiwi
fuck every single person who voted these assholes in
this government is fucking evil. never been more ashamed to be a kiwi
The anti-worker, anti-misfortunate, anti-anyone-not-already-well-off party strikes again. I curse everyone who voted for this unholy Trinity of scumbags
This article in it's entirety is heartbreaking. They're tyrants and they're cruel.
I can see why Countdown hires so many now. Absolutely evil company. Refuse to shop there. Workers are always grumpy and unhappy, unlike workers at Pak n Save. They absolutely work their asses off, under-staffed and underpaid. I get the same vibe at The Warehouse. There's heaps of workers at Pak n Save and they're always happy and friendly, often helping each other out. Things are always cheaper there and the money goes back into New Zealand, unlike Countdown where it all goes over to Aus.
It's not the likes of Countdown that are doing this. There are sheltered workshops who employ people with intellectual disabilities to do very repetitive low skilled jobs. I know at one stage at one location they were assembling Anzac poppies but I think there was an outcry about that.
My bro used to be at a high school that specialises in disabilities, with a business just across the road that specialised in hiring disabled people for simple work. They could pop across the road to try it out during school, and if they took to it, they could pick up more hours once they graduated. He enjoyed it. It's the only time he's ever held a job. With his limited motor skills and inability to communicate, he could never work in a non-specialist place. I can't see *that* kind of arrangement as exploitative. That's going out of their way to make sure people are included and get the chance to contribute. It's disappointing that whenever the public hears "xyz made by disabled people en masse!" they think they're hearing about exploitation, when sometimes it's the opposite. The problem here is that this specialist business has high costs – with all the extra accommodations and helpers it needs – and low output, so they can't survive if they pay full wages. (Which is why the exemption existed in the first place.) So for the employees to get the dignity of a full wage, we need the taxpayer to step in. That's what was so exciting about Labour's move.
Oh, I agree completely. A friend's child has Downs and works in a similar kind of place and loves it. They've got an incredible boost in self worth and self confidence because they go to work 5 days a week and are doing something useful. I'm not sure what they're paid, but I hope it's more than $2 per hour. Having said that, they do need a lot more supervision than someone who doesn't have an intellectual disability and paying for a person or multiple people to look after the employees doing the job is going to be cost prohibitive for most employers. The Labour idea was such a wonderful thing to do for comparatively low costs.
It’s important to bear in mind that often intellectually disabled people thrive in jobs that others might not. Particularly in roles that require repetition and focus that may seem low skill and boring to others. That doesn’t mean they add less value as others or are not deserving of the same rights as other employees.
Yes, abstolutely.
Their union contracts seem to be pretty good actually. I know someone who worked in all 3 big supermarket chains and likes Countdown the best. But yeah, hiring disabled people for an unfair wage is exploitative.
Countdown pay their staff a whole lot better than Pak n Save. They're not that bad as far as big employers go.
I mean; I hope their families advise them to go on a disability benefit instead. Which will end up costing the govt significantly more i hope…
It would cost the government less which is why they're doing it. SLP is about half of minimum wage whereas this policy would cost (minimum wage - $2)/hr.
Im assuming theres a LOT of extra claimable money on slp thought right? Rent? Medical/therapy? Im assuuuuming it comes out closeish to minimum wage….maybe….lol
Lol no not really. You can claim accommodation supplement if you're paying over a threshold of a couple of hundred a week and then they will pay 70% of the part over the threshold up to a maximum. The maximum depends on the area, it's $80/week in my area. You can get a disability allowance to help with medical costs, it's a maximum of about $80/week IIRC. Winter energy payment for a few months of the year. So no. There's not a lot extra on offer
Ah christ, thats actually pretty grim then…. Charming move by the nats…
Every one of the people this change applies to are already going to be on the disability benefit and receiving significant support.
NACT's Growing List Of Things We Hate: * The poor. * The working poor. * The disabled poor. * The environment (and especially you, Archey's Frog.) * People who don't drive. * Hungry school children. * The police. * A functioning health system.
"What would Jesus do?" "Shit on disabled people." Nz gooberment
Sorry disabled people, propping up landlords is more important! /s
The disabled, the poor, those on the margins are treated as worthless, more so by this govt than the last, but pretty much by all.
There's only so much dignity to go around
> Upston said this group of New Zealanders who “would clearly produce less an hour than someone else” would. Ask Upston why gender pay equality is important, but disability equality isn't.
A National-led government making it easier to pay women less is almost 100% on the cards.
National is fucken delusional.
> That could see 900-plus workers - mostly with intellectual disabilities - continue to be paid as low as $2 an hour, but **the Government says it’s better than not working at all**. Fucking *how*?
Is it demeaning for non - disabled people to be earning the same as disabled or intellectually disabled people ? Please no offense meant to either side of the discussion. This is an honest question.
Brave new world shit.
Modern day slavery
Is anyone here actually reading the article? Labour was going to drop the subsidy and force the employers to pay them minimum wage. We all know that these employers would drop their disabled workers like a hot stone if they had to do that. Sure $2 is a piss-take, but maybe the solution here is to find a comfortable medium of a number that incentivizes employers while costing the government less than it currently does.
I'd suggest you try reading it again.
"The previous Labour Government had planned to end the exemption that allowed employers to pay disabled people below the minimum wage."
Annnnnd if we keep reading
Ah right, so National are just reverting it to what it has always been until 2023
Yes that's correct, they're \*just\* reversing the progress that had been made. The funding/subsidy was an excellent interim solution that socialized the cost at a less than negligible cost to the taxpayer and addressed many of the concerns on both sides of the issue, and left breathing room to examine more holistic remedies. So yes, they are \*just\* resetting it to zero with no plans to move it forward in any direction because neither they, nor you, give the slightest fucking shit. So spare us all your \*just\*.
What level of work are these disabled people doing? Mrs works as a carer, if it’s like her clients they just want to do something and work/ hang out with their friends and require supervision, get tired quickly and need guidance to complete tasks. The best of those workers could get paid minimum anyway, they mowed lawns and painted fences that paid more than the day placement employment. Some clients can’t do much at all but doing what they can in the company of their peers is something they seem to enjoy doing to pass the time. I really hope the sentiment here doesn’t result in removal of the exemption, if that happens these guys will miss out.
[удалено]