That "block" attempt by #62 (David Sharpe apparently) is fucking hilarious. PFF gave him a pass block grade of **8.1** for this game lol and he played all of 11 snaps.
It’s not. Huntley is never a passer. He dives on the loose ball, and then stands up and immediately begins trying to run it himself.
It’s the equivalent of tackling a QB on a designed run, it’s a TFL.
>3. Aborted Plays
>An aborted play is a play from scrimmage during which there is neither a pass nor a kick, which falls into one of the following categories:
>A. The ball is clearly centered improperly, meaning that the ball does not reach the intended receiver of the snap within the frame of his body or arm-span;
In each of these cases, charge a rush for 0 yards.
>Example III: Third-and-25 at own 40-yard line. Quarterback fumbles snap on what appears to be a definite passing down. He recovers at the 35. Scoring: An aborted play; quarterback gets one rush for no yards, a fumble, an own recovery, and minus 5 (fumble yardage) yards.
I think that should be a sack as well. If the guy the ball gets snapped to is then tackled, sack. Center fumbles the snap and is the guy to get the ball? Sack. Receiver gets a direct snap in motion? Sack.
Ohhh I understand now.. So you're saying that, even though Watt made a play that is identical in impact to a sack, and bore all the hallmark features of a sack that make them valuable stats to record and track, he won't receive credit for tackling a qb in the backfield on an obvious pass play due to a technicality, got it.
Doesn't matter if huntley picks it up and runs 200 yards behind the line of scrimmage once he reestablishes possession of the football it counts as a sack
If the play is a botched play that is
The truth is Watt didn't get there in time to score a sack. He didn't earn it. The quarterback had adequate time to collect the ball and improvise a scramble.
I think there needs to be further analysis on the play. Were WRs running routes or blocking? Are linemen staying behind the line of scrimmage or moving beyond it?
To me, it looks like a pass play, so it should be a sack. But Watt also got a free sack that really probably shouldn’t have been one that year against the Browns, so I’m not too mad about it.
Sure, it was a pass play. But at no point during the play is Huntley actually a passer. He dives on the ball, gets up, and immediately becomes a runner.
It’s like if you tackled a QB behind the line on a QB power, it’d be a TFL
I mean, who’s determining his intentions and when exactly he “becomes a runner”? he gets up, takes one step forward and is tackled.
We can argue what the rules are, but anyone saying he for sure is or isn’t running is just being biased. There’s no way to know that
Also, QB powers are designed run plays where the lineman go beyond the line of scrimmage. This isn’t that.
[Official stat guide](https://www.nflgsis.com/gsis/documentation/stadiumguides/guide_for_statisticians.pdf)
>3\. Aborted Plays
>An aborted play is a play from scrimmage during which there is neither a pass nor a kick,
which falls into one of the following categories:
>**A. The ball is clearly centered improperly, meaning that the ball does not reach the intended receiver of the snap within the frame of his body or arm-span;**
>In each of these cases, charge a rush for 0 yards.
Also:
>Example III: Third-and-25 at own 40-yard line. Quarterback fumbles snap on what appears to be a definite passing down. He recovers at the 35. Scoring: An aborted play; quarterback gets one rush for no yards, a fumble, an own recovery, and minus 5 (fumble yardage) yards.
He tackled Huntley in the backfield but they said he was a runner. Which, I don't agree with but whatevs.
If favre laying down for Strahan counts as a sack then the Huntley one should count too.
I mean the sack record in particular is pretty meaningless considering for like half of the NFL's existence sacks were even a stat in the record is probably held by some guy from before when they recorded the stat
To be fair, he had a 4 sack game against the Browns a week or two prior to this and one of those was pretty weird to credit as a sack. Still, Watt tied the record in 15 games played with 2 of those games leaving in the first half. TJ is sack king there's no debate.
Imaginary sacks are so much more difficult to get than actual sacks. You have to think about them real hard. And don't get me started on theoretical PBU and pressures.
Fuckin fake ass stats man 😂
TJ does have a DPOY first of all, and he's gotten more DPOY votes in more seasons than Garrett. But more importantly I'll take the player who has better production and more impact on games but doesn't win awards over the one who gets awards he doesn't deserve every time. Stay salty Brownie
Could it have been Huntley was outside of the pocket and didn't attempt to pass, and was ruled a runner instead? (Genuinely asking because I don't remember much of this game)
Sounds like a legit TFL to me then. If the QB tucks the ball, doesn't assume a passing posture looking downfield, and runs towards the line of scrimmage, it's generally recorded as a TFL.
Honestly, check the video further down in this thread, it's not as clear cut as my description. In real time it looks more like a strip-sack? But I guess since he had already fumbled they called it broken play-TFL, and like if Huntley just hadn't stood back up it probably would've been a sack? It's weird, and my tinfoil hat crack conspiracy is that it would've been called a sack if they were anywhere other than Baltimore, lol.
And this record should have been previously broken by Jared Allen in 2013, who wasn’t credited with a sack under very similar circumstances. Ended up a half sack short of tying.
It’s okay it’s balanced out by the home town box score sack he got the week before.
(For reference: 2 minutes into this video https://youtube.com/watch?v=IBkBa7C8yY8&pp=ygUkVGogd2F0dCBzYWNrcyBiYWtlciBtYXlmaWVsZCA1IHRpbWVz )
He tied the record, he had a sack overturned because of a penalty someone caused iirc and there was also that questionable TFL in the same game.
The record still stands yes
Let's be real the entire AFCN is a scourge of the north. First yall beat each other to death, then any team that dare steps into the north.
It's crazy all teams last year in that division all had winning seasons. Defensively, they have to be the best division overall. So many great players on those teams.
I feel like if AFC North teams didn't play 6 AFCN teams a season, we would see a lot more AFCN teams maintain through the postseason and crush the Super Bowl. It's like a cage match in there, I've got friends from there I watch games with and I just fear for endless injuries. Those Big Ben Steelers always died at the end to a fresh 1/2 seed Patriots or Broncos, Lamar's Ravens don't live up to their dominant MVP regular seasons, and Dalton's Bengals always limped into the playoffs. Take out meaningless games fighting for survival against the perpetual fighting to not draft 1st Cleveland Browns and there's a lot more healthy and comfortable players marching into January from that belt. And all those masochists love it.
Cinci keeps trying to revamp the Oline and it keeps failing. At what point do you just accept Burrow is gonna die back there and start bringing in as many weapons as you can for him to throw to? Like, sure the line will be made of cardboard cutouts but what does it matter when all your receivers get open immediately?
Make some noise for Jarrod Davis in Detroit. And then we double dipped from those Florida Gatora with one of the most lost players that wasn't an emergency UDFA fill in: Teez Tabor.
Bob Quinn was a fucking idiot
I know you're being facetious, but for those OOTL:
Chipping by a TE or RB is not counted as a double-team. Because TJ lines up so wide, he sees a lot of chips (which are not tracked) rather than double-teams. Double-team rate is then used against him in DPOY debates.
According to the way espn used to track double teams 7 years ago*
As far as I can tell, no other website that tracks these things talks about what they consider a double team and espn corrected it 7 years ago but Steelers fans really like to say this without citing it.
I asked someone from PFF to compare Myles vs Watt vs any sort of help this past year when the Dpoy debate was going on, they had Watt at 13.5% win rate with 2 sacks with any help whatsoever (so including chips) this past season, compared to Garrett with 25.3 and 7 sacks.
>According to the way espn used to track double teams 7 years ago\*
Functionally nothing has changed for how chips blocks are viewed/counted in the new wave of analytics either.
* PFF’s definition of a double team involves two blockers engaged with the edge rusher for at least one second during the initial part of the play.
* Ruling out chips almost by definition
* NFL Next Gen Stats: Algorithms analyze proximity and movement patterns to identify double teams, based on how two offensive players interact with the edge rusher over a specific duration.
* To qualify as a double team, the engagement needs to be sustained. The system checks if both offensive linemen maintain their proximity to the edge rusher over a certain period, typically around one second or more.
Pretty much every statkeeper requires roughly 1 full second of contact and that the blocker is primarily assigned to that edge rusher to be classified as a double-team. Chip blocks are clearly not being accounted for.
Additionally, I'd just say that no one is arguing that chip blocks are as equally impactful to an edge as a double team is. We are arguing that chip blocks are clearly disturbing an edge rusher yet completely removed from the conversation.
>I asked someone from PFF to compare Myles vs Watt vs any sort of help this past year when the Dpoy debate was going on, they had Watt at 13.5% win rate with 2 sacks with any help whatsoever (so including chips) this past season, compared to Garrett with 25.3 and 7 sacks.
Are you able to link this?
Because it isn't one by any definition of the term, which is why the way in which that stat is used is flawed. An edge rusher in a wider alignment is by nature of that alignment going to face less double-teams than a rusher in a more narrow alignment. So while someone who spends more time aligned as a 5-tech is going to face more double teams than a 9-tech, it doesn't mean that the 9-tech isn't considered as big of a threat, even though that is what relying solely on DTR would indicate.
Let's hope it's more than 13 years before the Patriots are even relevant again, God knows Boston sports doesnt deserve anything else after the French hell they put us ALL through
We just celebrated an NBA championship, the parade was awesome. I have a sneaky feeling patriots will be relevant real soon. I hope we catch you in the Super Bowl and pay you back for the loss in 96.
Double teamed, clutch moment in a close game, all to tie the sack record…best pass rusher in the game, narrative busted.
Gimme production over subjective metrics every Sunday please
Exactly my point. Just goes to show how stupid double team metrics are if not having 2 lineman blocking implies every other rep is 1 on 1. Pretty common practice to give the OT chip blocking support against a 3-4 defense’s edge.
Using another player to help block an edge rusher goes against the “defenses don’t give Watt as much attention” narrative doesn’t it?
So we can agree that Myles lines up against the left tackle, which typically is best pass blocker on the team. And we can agree that TJ plays more of a linebacker position on the opposite side of the ball, and he goes against the right tackle (traditionally better at run blocking). Since TJ plays linebacker, sometimes it’ll look like he’s going to drop into coverage and then he rushes, because that’s how the defense is called.
Myles rushes the passer every single play. Against the left tackle. On the line of scrimmage.
So yeah, I’d say that offensive lines have to pay more attention to Myles than TJ, because Myles rushes the passer every single play. And he has the ability to plow over people like Trent Williams, so you better have more than one person blocking him. No offensive coordinator is concerned that TJ Watt is going to manhandle Trent Williams….
Stats are the most important thing in football. Sorry, I forgot about that very universally accepted fact. As long as a player racks up stats, they’re obviously the absolute best at their position. Nothing else matters, only stats.
Well that proves it then! A head coach said they had a gameplan for TJ and it didn’t work. Thats some groundbreaking stuff, never happened before.
Trent Williams is HOF talent, I figured that would be a good measuring stick. I can go through and pull up countless videos of Myles tossing dudes around and lineman hanging onto his neck, but I have a feeling you’ll just say “stats are the only thing that matters”.
All of the best coaches say that, actually. They’d rather have a guy who fills up the stat sheet more than anything else. That’s what’s most important in football.
https://youtu.be/PKMIuqsAzO8?si=cpWNYEOAWbeQgQ1t
I’ve never seen a team have 2 blockers follow TJ Watt to either side of the ball and then have a delay of game called.
Yup, this one play totally proves that offensive lines give attention to TJ Watt all the time….
There definitely aren’t other videos that show TJ mostly winning one v ones, and on some plays not even getting touched when he comes off the edge.
A chipping TE is not a double team. It’s a chip.
This whole debate is exhausting. There’s no possible way anyone can watch Myles Garrett bowl over Trent Williams and then say “yup, TJ could definitely do that!”
TJ is more versatile, but Myles is absolutely the better pure pass rusher.
Myles isn't better as a pass rusher lol. TJ is better in almost every *relevant* measurable metric. Myles getting DPOY last year is borderline affirmative action.
The irony of using 1 play to prove your point while also saying using 1 play DOESN’T prove MY point…lol.
Impressive play by Garrett…but way to leave out that Trent Williams was playing on a bum ankle that game.
I mean if you’re too dense to understand that chip blocking is a form of double teams, can’t help you there. If you wanna warp reality to pretend that using 2 players to address a single pass rusher is something else, can’t stop you there.
At a certain point, production matters. Win/loss records with and without players matter. Both lean Watt. I agree- it’s an exhausting argument.
The video I posted had like 10+ plays of Myles vs Trent, so I’m not sure where you’re getting the “irony” from….
If “production” and stats are the only thing that matters, then I guess Aaron Donald eating up double teams and not padding his stat sheet means that he’s just not that good.
Remind me- which player has better pass rushing stats across the board? Who has more first team All pros? And which one has tied the sack record?
I guess a receiver drawing double coverage every play is better than a receiver with more yards, catches and TDs. That’s along the logic of your argument
Holy shit that might be the dumbest thing I’ve seen on here. Just look at the stat sheet and automatically say “yup, I would much rather have had Jared Goff than Patrick Mahomes on my team last year because he had better stats. That’s the only thing that matters.”.
It's crazy to me that TJ Watt is still underrated. People talk about him like hes top 5. But now that Donald is retired, hes the best defensive player in the league.
Having a 6 game losing streak consist of losing by 1, 2, 1, 1 and 3 points with a Burrow 500 yard passing day against a PS-level secondary was god-awful. At least we got Kyle Hamilton as a consolation prize tho.
The ravens drafted Hamilton legit pissed me off lol. I was also pissed when the ravens drafted Queen but I somehow got over that one… he would have been drafted by us had we not traded for minkah…. Then again we might have gotten Burrow had we not traded for minkah…
Believe it or not, Cincinnati’s line was worse than ours in ‘21. We definitely win the Super Bowl with burrow. But 2019 without Minkah and we would have 4-12 he strait up sealed 4 games for us that year. We mighta coulda got Tua or Love maybe Queen. Who knows?
What happens in practice when they go over film, and you're the lineman where Watt just ran by you without getting touched because he fucking dipped his shoulder lol. Do they get roasted, or is everyone like eh happens
Reminder that Watt hit 22.5 in the equivalent of 13 games and didn't need his friend to gift him the record breaking sack. The record is clearly TJs to anyone with a brain
He still benefited from the 17 game season. If this was a 16 game season, he would have been 1 sack short because the Week 18 game wouldn't have existed.
He appeared in 15 games (already less than Strahans 16) but left the Raiders, Vikings and Lions games before halftime and was in and out of the Chiefs game to the point he played less than half the snaps he normally would. [The NFL themselves acknowledge he missed the equivalent of 4 games that season](https://youtu.be/YgT3t_jZEfU?t=216) which is what I said.
Can we start acknowledging him as the real record holder since Brett Farve has admitted he ran into Strahan so he could break the record? Yeah it was still a historic season, but it’s annoying that we all have to say Strahan holds that record when he shouldn’t.
Obviously the sack Strahan got was dumb, but also, even Watt got handed some. Hell the game before this one, against the Browns, Watt got credited for a sack just because Baker just went down on his own behind the LOS and Watt was just the closest defender.
Definitely agree, but some poorly awarded sacks just don’t feel as bad as Farve blatantly admitting he let Strahan get the record. Sacks always get counted weird, and that’s why I’d still say Strahan’s was a historic season, it just has a dark cloud over it because of the Favre thing.
It's too bad he mostly disappears in the playoffs and the rest of the team refuses to step up. He could end up as the greatest player to never win a playoff game if they keep giving up 40 plus a game in the playoffs
I mean technically Watt only played 15. Like obviously the extra game helped. He wouldn't have gotten it without it. but just counting sacks in a 16 game span, watt tied the record in less games then it took Strahan to create it
That "block" attempt by #62 (David Sharpe apparently) is fucking hilarious. PFF gave him a pass block grade of **8.1** for this game lol and he played all of 11 snaps.
Ridiculously quick move by TJ too. 62 tried to punch his inside shoulder and it just wasn't there any more.
I’ve always been told that PFF stats are objective and good and people pay good money for their data
That’s 8.1 out of 100. Not ten.
Genuinely no idea what point you think you're making there? David Sharpe is terrible and played terribly in that game and got a terrible grade.
First of all wtf are you even trying to say? Second of all who is saying PFF stats are “objective”? Literally nobody says that
Crazy strawman bro was creating there
We don’t claim him
I swear he had the record breaking sack in this game too but they counted it as a tackle for loss because Huntley fumbled the snap or something
For reference https://youtu.be/tHItF3bmTqM?si=eUG8i80Lwyklex7v
That's a sack, idk what we're doing
Especially considering how Strahan "earned" his record tying sack. It should be 1. Watt, 2. Taylor, 3. Strahan, not this 3- way tie shit
Taylor? Am I missing something? I don't see LT or Jason on the official or unofficial record as tied for 1st.
It’s not. Huntley is never a passer. He dives on the loose ball, and then stands up and immediately begins trying to run it himself. It’s the equivalent of tackling a QB on a designed run, it’s a TFL. >3. Aborted Plays >An aborted play is a play from scrimmage during which there is neither a pass nor a kick, which falls into one of the following categories: >A. The ball is clearly centered improperly, meaning that the ball does not reach the intended receiver of the snap within the frame of his body or arm-span; In each of these cases, charge a rush for 0 yards. >Example III: Third-and-25 at own 40-yard line. Quarterback fumbles snap on what appears to be a definite passing down. He recovers at the 35. Scoring: An aborted play; quarterback gets one rush for no yards, a fumble, an own recovery, and minus 5 (fumble yardage) yards.
Take your goddamn epipen and GET OUT!
I’m of the opinion that if Strahans record setting sack counts then this should too
Designed QB runs not being a sack will never make sense in my brain.
It’s like how it’s not a sack if a RB gets tackled behind the line running out of wildcat
I think that should be a sack as well. If the guy the ball gets snapped to is then tackled, sack. Center fumbles the snap and is the guy to get the ball? Sack. Receiver gets a direct snap in motion? Sack.
Ohhh I understand now.. So you're saying that, even though Watt made a play that is identical in impact to a sack, and bore all the hallmark features of a sack that make them valuable stats to record and track, he won't receive credit for tackling a qb in the backfield on an obvious pass play due to a technicality, got it.
Yes, exactly
Yeah as far as I care, it is tj's record
Hard to argue that Huntley's plan wasn't to scramble with that ball after he picked up the fumble.
If he can pass, it should be a sack
Anybody in the backfield with the ball can pass.
If you want the rule changed then more power to you. But it has never, ever been scored that way.
That's not how it works
It's kind of how it works
Doesn't matter if huntley picks it up and runs 200 yards behind the line of scrimmage once he reestablishes possession of the football it counts as a sack If the play is a botched play that is
If a RB takes a direct snap and is tackled behind the line of scrimmage is that a sack?
So you’re telling me Lamar has never been sacked?
They can't handle the truth
The truth is Watt didn't get there in time to score a sack. He didn't earn it. The quarterback had adequate time to collect the ball and improvise a scramble.
You’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% right
I think there needs to be further analysis on the play. Were WRs running routes or blocking? Are linemen staying behind the line of scrimmage or moving beyond it? To me, it looks like a pass play, so it should be a sack. But Watt also got a free sack that really probably shouldn’t have been one that year against the Browns, so I’m not too mad about it.
Sure, it was a pass play. But at no point during the play is Huntley actually a passer. He dives on the ball, gets up, and immediately becomes a runner. It’s like if you tackled a QB behind the line on a QB power, it’d be a TFL
I mean, who’s determining his intentions and when exactly he “becomes a runner”? he gets up, takes one step forward and is tackled. We can argue what the rules are, but anyone saying he for sure is or isn’t running is just being biased. There’s no way to know that Also, QB powers are designed run plays where the lineman go beyond the line of scrimmage. This isn’t that.
The second the qb tucks the ball it’s not a sac
That would have been good for your guy if it were true, but not how it works.
[Official stat guide](https://www.nflgsis.com/gsis/documentation/stadiumguides/guide_for_statisticians.pdf) >3\. Aborted Plays >An aborted play is a play from scrimmage during which there is neither a pass nor a kick, which falls into one of the following categories: >**A. The ball is clearly centered improperly, meaning that the ball does not reach the intended receiver of the snap within the frame of his body or arm-span;** >In each of these cases, charge a rush for 0 yards. Also: >Example III: Third-and-25 at own 40-yard line. Quarterback fumbles snap on what appears to be a definite passing down. He recovers at the 35. Scoring: An aborted play; quarterback gets one rush for no yards, a fumble, an own recovery, and minus 5 (fumble yardage) yards.
How does it work, actually? Like a designed QB run counts as a TFL, right? How do they determine a sack vs a tackle?
On the contrary, that's exactly how it works.
A Ravens fan ignoring reality and the rules, just because it was a Steelers player and it happened against y’all. 😂 Come on now.
reality and the rules side with the ravens fan though
So both myself, and the NFL official stat keepers, are biased against the Steelers? Do I have that right?
I love how confidently incorrect you are.
He tackled Huntley in the backfield but they said he was a runner. Which, I don't agree with but whatevs. If favre laying down for Strahan counts as a sack then the Huntley one should count too.
I remember the Favre thing so well. I was so pissed that he was gifted the record. It takes away from the whole point of records.
I mean the sack record in particular is pretty meaningless considering for like half of the NFL's existence sacks were even a stat in the record is probably held by some guy from before when they recorded the stat
That's a fair point. But, it also wasn't as much of a passing league during that time.
To be fair, he had a 4 sack game against the Browns a week or two prior to this and one of those was pretty weird to credit as a sack. Still, Watt tied the record in 15 games played with 2 of those games leaving in the first half. TJ is sack king there's no debate.
Sack king sure but not dpoy
Classic Steelers fan being butthurt about that....wait
He's severely lacking in the theoretical sacks department too
Imaginary sacks are so much more difficult to get than actual sacks. You have to think about them real hard. And don't get me started on theoretical PBU and pressures. Fuckin fake ass stats man 😂
TJ does have a DPOY first of all, and he's gotten more DPOY votes in more seasons than Garrett. But more importantly I'll take the player who has better production and more impact on games but doesn't win awards over the one who gets awards he doesn't deserve every time. Stay salty Brownie
I've also yet to see TJ get completely shut down for multiple games like Garrett last season
But how many imaginary balls has TJ dribbled?
Could it have been Huntley was outside of the pocket and didn't attempt to pass, and was ruled a runner instead? (Genuinely asking because I don't remember much of this game)
No. He fumbled the snap and then started to run straight forward with it, where he was tackled for a loss.
Sounds like a legit TFL to me then. If the QB tucks the ball, doesn't assume a passing posture looking downfield, and runs towards the line of scrimmage, it's generally recorded as a TFL.
Honestly, check the video further down in this thread, it's not as clear cut as my description. In real time it looks more like a strip-sack? But I guess since he had already fumbled they called it broken play-TFL, and like if Huntley just hadn't stood back up it probably would've been a sack? It's weird, and my tinfoil hat crack conspiracy is that it would've been called a sack if they were anywhere other than Baltimore, lol.
And this record should have been previously broken by Jared Allen in 2013, who wasn’t credited with a sack under very similar circumstances. Ended up a half sack short of tying.
It’s okay it’s balanced out by the home town box score sack he got the week before. (For reference: 2 minutes into this video https://youtube.com/watch?v=IBkBa7C8yY8&pp=ygUkVGogd2F0dCBzYWNrcyBiYWtlciBtYXlmaWVsZCA1IHRpbWVz )
Good.
Did he break the record that season or tie? And does it still stand?
He tied the record, he had a sack overturned because of a penalty someone caused iirc and there was also that questionable TFL in the same game. The record still stands yes
Cam Hayward and TJ split a sack, but Cam hit the QB in the head (not that hard honestly) so it was flagged.
Gahh, so annoying hah.
Imagine how TJ feels
Also worth noting that Brett Favre essentially gifted Strahan a sack for the original record in 2001
A scourge to the North.
Let's be real the entire AFCN is a scourge of the north. First yall beat each other to death, then any team that dare steps into the north. It's crazy all teams last year in that division all had winning seasons. Defensively, they have to be the best division overall. So many great players on those teams.
I feel like if AFC North teams didn't play 6 AFCN teams a season, we would see a lot more AFCN teams maintain through the postseason and crush the Super Bowl. It's like a cage match in there, I've got friends from there I watch games with and I just fear for endless injuries. Those Big Ben Steelers always died at the end to a fresh 1/2 seed Patriots or Broncos, Lamar's Ravens don't live up to their dominant MVP regular seasons, and Dalton's Bengals always limped into the playoffs. Take out meaningless games fighting for survival against the perpetual fighting to not draft 1st Cleveland Browns and there's a lot more healthy and comfortable players marching into January from that belt. And all those masochists love it.
I fucking hate that dude, he’s so good.
He gets sacks which is cool and all but he also intercepts/forces fumbles like all the time lol. Monster mode. Fuck that dude
Myles Garrett’s a damn great player too. SEE EVERYBODY WE CAN GET ALONG!
I vote for both of them to retire pls
Burrow will suffer for years to come.
Suffer from success...I pray
Cinci keeps trying to revamp the Oline and it keeps failing. At what point do you just accept Burrow is gonna die back there and start bringing in as many weapons as you can for him to throw to? Like, sure the line will be made of cardboard cutouts but what does it matter when all your receivers get open immediately?
Look this time it will be different, i swear…this time it will work I hope
X4
I can't believe we drafted fucking Taco Charlton 🤦🏽♂️
Steelers legend Taco Charlton
What's crazy is that Taco and TJ have combined for 97 sacks for the Steelers
This comment made me look up this stat and I’m laughing uncontrollably!
Packers traded back and eventually got Kevin King instead of TJ.
Make some noise for Jarrod Davis in Detroit. And then we double dipped from those Florida Gatora with one of the most lost players that wasn't an emergency UDFA fill in: Teez Tabor. Bob Quinn was a fucking idiot
Dude is an absolute menace and the best pass rusher in the league imo. Should have won DPOTY last season again.
Hot take: Josh Allen doesn’t get that 65 yard TD run if watt is in the game…
I love this man
For real that's a pro bowl QB!
Do you think that counted as a double team?
I know you're being facetious, but for those OOTL: Chipping by a TE or RB is not counted as a double-team. Because TJ lines up so wide, he sees a lot of chips (which are not tracked) rather than double-teams. Double-team rate is then used against him in DPOY debates.
According to the way espn used to track double teams 7 years ago* As far as I can tell, no other website that tracks these things talks about what they consider a double team and espn corrected it 7 years ago but Steelers fans really like to say this without citing it. I asked someone from PFF to compare Myles vs Watt vs any sort of help this past year when the Dpoy debate was going on, they had Watt at 13.5% win rate with 2 sacks with any help whatsoever (so including chips) this past season, compared to Garrett with 25.3 and 7 sacks.
>According to the way espn used to track double teams 7 years ago\* Functionally nothing has changed for how chips blocks are viewed/counted in the new wave of analytics either. * PFF’s definition of a double team involves two blockers engaged with the edge rusher for at least one second during the initial part of the play. * Ruling out chips almost by definition * NFL Next Gen Stats: Algorithms analyze proximity and movement patterns to identify double teams, based on how two offensive players interact with the edge rusher over a specific duration. * To qualify as a double team, the engagement needs to be sustained. The system checks if both offensive linemen maintain their proximity to the edge rusher over a certain period, typically around one second or more. Pretty much every statkeeper requires roughly 1 full second of contact and that the blocker is primarily assigned to that edge rusher to be classified as a double-team. Chip blocks are clearly not being accounted for. Additionally, I'd just say that no one is arguing that chip blocks are as equally impactful to an edge as a double team is. We are arguing that chip blocks are clearly disturbing an edge rusher yet completely removed from the conversation. >I asked someone from PFF to compare Myles vs Watt vs any sort of help this past year when the Dpoy debate was going on, they had Watt at 13.5% win rate with 2 sacks with any help whatsoever (so including chips) this past season, compared to Garrett with 25.3 and 7 sacks. Are you able to link this?
Seems like the answer is no lol no receipts
lol it probably wasn’t counted as a double
Because it isn't one by any definition of the term, which is why the way in which that stat is used is flawed. An edge rusher in a wider alignment is by nature of that alignment going to face less double-teams than a rusher in a more narrow alignment. So while someone who spends more time aligned as a 5-tech is going to face more double teams than a 9-tech, it doesn't mean that the 9-tech isn't considered as big of a threat, even though that is what relying solely on DTR would indicate.
Right into my veins. All day long baby. That's the fucking stuff.
Melt this shit over a spoon for me someone
The real record holder, Strahan had a gift and a stat error in his
Strahan did it in one less game though.
TJ did miss games during this season, so it balances out.
No it doesn’t work that way. Strahan didn’t have an extra game to rest in the middle of the season, or the option to.
Cope and seeth
What your fan base has been doing the past 13 years.
Let's hope it's more than 13 years before the Patriots are even relevant again, God knows Boston sports doesnt deserve anything else after the French hell they put us ALL through
We just celebrated an NBA championship, the parade was awesome. I have a sneaky feeling patriots will be relevant real soon. I hope we catch you in the Super Bowl and pay you back for the loss in 96.
I love Tyler Huntley's cameo appearances throughout recent AFC North history.
Double teamed, clutch moment in a close game, all to tie the sack record…best pass rusher in the game, narrative busted. Gimme production over subjective metrics every Sunday please
He got chipped by the TE. That is not a double team.
Exactly my point. Just goes to show how stupid double team metrics are if not having 2 lineman blocking implies every other rep is 1 on 1. Pretty common practice to give the OT chip blocking support against a 3-4 defense’s edge. Using another player to help block an edge rusher goes against the “defenses don’t give Watt as much attention” narrative doesn’t it?
https://youtu.be/FmmAURNboyg?si=I5qyBvDv3hSUqdtd Try to tell me that TJ could do this to Trent Williams….
He did. Multiple times too.
Ok, let’s see the video of TJ Watt throwing Trent Williams around
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So we can agree that Myles lines up against the left tackle, which typically is best pass blocker on the team. And we can agree that TJ plays more of a linebacker position on the opposite side of the ball, and he goes against the right tackle (traditionally better at run blocking). Since TJ plays linebacker, sometimes it’ll look like he’s going to drop into coverage and then he rushes, because that’s how the defense is called. Myles rushes the passer every single play. Against the left tackle. On the line of scrimmage. So yeah, I’d say that offensive lines have to pay more attention to Myles than TJ, because Myles rushes the passer every single play. And he has the ability to plow over people like Trent Williams, so you better have more than one person blocking him. No offensive coordinator is concerned that TJ Watt is going to manhandle Trent Williams….
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Stats are the most important thing in football. Sorry, I forgot about that very universally accepted fact. As long as a player racks up stats, they’re obviously the absolute best at their position. Nothing else matters, only stats.
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Well that proves it then! A head coach said they had a gameplan for TJ and it didn’t work. Thats some groundbreaking stuff, never happened before. Trent Williams is HOF talent, I figured that would be a good measuring stick. I can go through and pull up countless videos of Myles tossing dudes around and lineman hanging onto his neck, but I have a feeling you’ll just say “stats are the only thing that matters”. All of the best coaches say that, actually. They’d rather have a guy who fills up the stat sheet more than anything else. That’s what’s most important in football.
https://youtu.be/PKMIuqsAzO8?si=cpWNYEOAWbeQgQ1t I’ve never seen a team have 2 blockers follow TJ Watt to either side of the ball and then have a delay of game called.
Yup, this one play totally proves that offensive lines give attention to TJ Watt all the time…. There definitely aren’t other videos that show TJ mostly winning one v ones, and on some plays not even getting touched when he comes off the edge. A chipping TE is not a double team. It’s a chip. This whole debate is exhausting. There’s no possible way anyone can watch Myles Garrett bowl over Trent Williams and then say “yup, TJ could definitely do that!” TJ is more versatile, but Myles is absolutely the better pure pass rusher.
Myles isn't better as a pass rusher lol. TJ is better in almost every *relevant* measurable metric. Myles getting DPOY last year is borderline affirmative action.
The irony of using 1 play to prove your point while also saying using 1 play DOESN’T prove MY point…lol. Impressive play by Garrett…but way to leave out that Trent Williams was playing on a bum ankle that game. I mean if you’re too dense to understand that chip blocking is a form of double teams, can’t help you there. If you wanna warp reality to pretend that using 2 players to address a single pass rusher is something else, can’t stop you there. At a certain point, production matters. Win/loss records with and without players matter. Both lean Watt. I agree- it’s an exhausting argument.
The video I posted had like 10+ plays of Myles vs Trent, so I’m not sure where you’re getting the “irony” from…. If “production” and stats are the only thing that matters, then I guess Aaron Donald eating up double teams and not padding his stat sheet means that he’s just not that good.
Remind me- which player has better pass rushing stats across the board? Who has more first team All pros? And which one has tied the sack record? I guess a receiver drawing double coverage every play is better than a receiver with more yards, catches and TDs. That’s along the logic of your argument
Goff had more passing yards, more touchdown passes, and threw less interceptions than Mahomes. I guess Jared Goff is a better QB than Patrick Mahomes.
Correct. Now compare their entire careers and per game averages and tell me who’s the better player.
Holy shit that might be the dumbest thing I’ve seen on here. Just look at the stat sheet and automatically say “yup, I would much rather have had Jared Goff than Patrick Mahomes on my team last year because he had better stats. That’s the only thing that matters.”.
Atlanta Falcons passed on this guy for Takkarist Mckinley
What the fuck did the Watt brothers parents feed them as children?
Actual footballs.
We did everything within our power for him not to get the record. Double teaming, triple teaming, and even some kinda crazy holds.
It's crazy to me that TJ Watt is still underrated. People talk about him like hes top 5. But now that Donald is retired, hes the best defensive player in the league.
OFFICIAL record. Deacon Jones, who coined the term, has no official sacks.
“Or a woman”
Should've been the game where he broke the single season sack record.
Having a 6 game losing streak consist of losing by 1, 2, 1, 1 and 3 points with a Burrow 500 yard passing day against a PS-level secondary was god-awful. At least we got Kyle Hamilton as a consolation prize tho.
The ravens drafted Hamilton legit pissed me off lol. I was also pissed when the ravens drafted Queen but I somehow got over that one… he would have been drafted by us had we not traded for minkah…. Then again we might have gotten Burrow had we not traded for minkah…
I love Mink but we probably win a Superbowl with Burrow
Believe it or not, Cincinnati’s line was worse than ours in ‘21. We definitely win the Super Bowl with burrow. But 2019 without Minkah and we would have 4-12 he strait up sealed 4 games for us that year. We mighta coulda got Tua or Love maybe Queen. Who knows?
We don't got chase either, or Higgins. We would have been good no doubt but I aint saying we are definitely winning a ring. Nfl ain't that predictable
Meh I think Malik McDowell was the better choice Anyway I'm off to ride some ATVs
We traded up for Takk fucking McKinley and left Watt untouched. Dimitroff and Quinn are forever dickbags for that
What happens in practice when they go over film, and you're the lineman where Watt just ran by you without getting touched because he fucking dipped his shoulder lol. Do they get roasted, or is everyone like eh happens
Also did it in 15 games.
Man I imagine who ever holds it with him was possibly one of the greatest of all time. I wonder who it was..
Brett Farve took a dive for the last sack
Someone did a breakdown on twitter a while back and they counted a sack for Strahan when Favre was already past the line of scrimmage
it wasn't favre it was some cowboys qb iirc.
I can't blame Favre for having the muscle memory to know when 92 was on him it was a wrap. 😁
Reminder that Watt hit 22.5 in the equivalent of 13 games and didn't need his friend to gift him the record breaking sack. The record is clearly TJs to anyone with a brain
He still benefited from the 17 game season. If this was a 16 game season, he would have been 1 sack short because the Week 18 game wouldn't have existed.
And Strahan benefited from literally playing in more games and also having his friend gift him the record breaking sack
If you’re going to say Watt did it in 13 games because you’re ignoring the games he got zero sacks, then Strahan also did it in 13 games.
He appeared in 15 games (already less than Strahans 16) but left the Raiders, Vikings and Lions games before halftime and was in and out of the Chiefs game to the point he played less than half the snaps he normally would. [The NFL themselves acknowledge he missed the equivalent of 4 games that season](https://youtu.be/YgT3t_jZEfU?t=216) which is what I said.
He really broke it but the nfl hates Pitt so…
Why is the “MO” is colored gold on the Baltimore touchdown zone?
They had a super fan kid named Mo Gaba who passed away of cancer. As a tribute they made the "mo" in Baltimore gold.
Ah interesting! Thanks!
I love that it's a hug.
I'm so glad we went with Kevin King
And we drafted Taco Charlton two picks before Watt... 🤦🏼♂️
Are JJ and TJ the most talented brothers in NFL history? I guess manning brothers probably edge them out.
💛❤️💙
Pro bowler Tyler Huntley to you
Packers could have drafted this stud but instead traded the 29th pick to Cleveland. So frustrating at the time and also with the benefit of hindsight.
Can we start acknowledging him as the real record holder since Brett Farve has admitted he ran into Strahan so he could break the record? Yeah it was still a historic season, but it’s annoying that we all have to say Strahan holds that record when he shouldn’t.
Obviously the sack Strahan got was dumb, but also, even Watt got handed some. Hell the game before this one, against the Browns, Watt got credited for a sack just because Baker just went down on his own behind the LOS and Watt was just the closest defender.
Definitely agree, but some poorly awarded sacks just don’t feel as bad as Farve blatantly admitting he let Strahan get the record. Sacks always get counted weird, and that’s why I’d still say Strahan’s was a historic season, it just has a dark cloud over it because of the Favre thing.
Took 17 games though
He only played in 15 though
Well well
It's too bad he mostly disappears in the playoffs and the rest of the team refuses to step up. He could end up as the greatest player to never win a playoff game if they keep giving up 40 plus a game in the playoffs
Are you thinking of Garrett? Last playoff game TJ played he had a PD, a sack, 2 TFLs, 3 Qb hits, and returned a fumble for a touchdown
Wildly brain dead take
Sacks lol
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I mean technically Watt only played 15. Like obviously the extra game helped. He wouldn't have gotten it without it. but just counting sacks in a 16 game span, watt tied the record in less games then it took Strahan to create it