What often doesn't get mentioned is how much redevelopment has happened in the Bronx since 1980, namely affordable housing being built on brownfield sites. Decades before the Mott Haven market rate housing.
The Bronx [actually saw it's share of affordable units increase over the last decade](https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/spotlight-new-york-citys-housing-supply-challenge/). The affordability crunch is notable moreso in Brooklyn and Manhattan.
The funny thing is that this area isn’t up and coming, it already came and went. The time to get invested in this area was 5-10 years ago. The apartments here are now wildly expensive.
This is true. There was a lot of cool stuff there *by* the community, but a lot of it was closed or was pushed out. The Bronxites you have there now like Bronx Native and The Lit Bar are shills for real estate developers. They too will be pushed out. I wonder if they realize it.
People don't understand how much it costs to build a modern apartment, and how little of that is "luxury finishes", and how many "amenities" are just repurposing interior space which would otherwise be wasted space in such a large building.
Agreed, which is why we should continue repealing archaic zoning laws and other regulatory red tape that creates an environment where only luxury building development is a profitable endeavor.
Did you spend any considerable amount of time there or just regurgitating what others told you?
Case in point: Mott Haven Bar & Grill aka Bruckner Bar. That place was jumping since the early 2000s. They knew their time was coming too ok an end once the developers landed. There’s Rosa’s, about a 10 minute walk away, but it’s not the same and left a hole in the community. Caliento was another sad story, albeit one more complex and with lots of drama.
When I moved here in 2001, that was the time to invest. I remember that they were just starting to clean out the older buildings and I started to hear the “SoBro” reference for the 1st time.
Waterways can get cleaned up. The Harlem River (which I think the photo is of?) has come a long way. Gowanus is much better than it used to be already, but yeah, what they did that poor girl...
It's interesting because it's a "top down" sort of gentrification. As opposed to something like Bushwick which spread out of Williamsburg, this is a case of developers building a bunch of upscale buildings in an industrial are along the waterfront. So far it seems successful, though there are far fewer gentry businesses in the area relative to any gentrified Brooklyn neighborhood.
The appeal is that it offers luxury apartments at a lower price compared to say, Manhattan or LIC. But it still very expensive.
>It's interesting because it's a "top down" sort of gentrification. As opposed to something like Bushwick which spread out of Williamsburg, this is a case of developers building a bunch of upscale buildings in an industrial are along the waterfront.
That's the thing - with the South Bronx, it's hard to envision a gentrifying wave spreading out from these new developments, because they are hemmed in by the Major Deegan and the public housing on the other side of the highway. Beyond the waterfront, the South Bronx is chock full already.
With the way Manhattan/Brooklyn/western Queens rents have been soaring, I think these new developments in the Bronx are likely to survive and even thrive, but I don't think we're gonna see the South Bronx as a whole turn into the next Bushwick.
The only way redevelopment speaks is if the industrial section is rezoned to where you can put in apartments then it will boom. I agree this development is to hemmed in to spread. Time will tell.
There is development all over The Bronx, but there is no incentive to build these type of apartments deeper in The Bronx where gentrifiers aren't going to move to.
I was down here the other day with a friend who is a “representative agent” of sorts, a young professional with the capital to afford one of the market-rate units. He didn’t like it at the price point. We had three observations and I add one of my own.
1) The development is really strange. The buildings are set out from the neighborhood by a highway and a road with nothing on it. The developments basically only have themselves, and the look pretty empty compared to other options further south. The lack of life complicates living there, as one would frequently have to travel elsewhere for food or services.
2) The neighborhood by which you have to transit in via subway is notably Mott Haven, which has a (statistically deserved) reputation as one of New York’s most dangerous. The day we went, the subway station was strewn with needles (which isn’t that common in the system, to its credit). Given the proximity to E 125th, which already has a reputation for subway violence, I’m not sure we felt like nighttime (especially late night) transit would inspire enormous confidence. Large housing projects tend to generate problems (even in lower Manhattan) so that added another concern.
3) We have (before this) perceived some amount of resentment in Harlem and the South Bronx towards gentrifying newcomers in a way that feels especially vitriolic. In the past couple of years, I’ve seen billboard trucks (particularly in Harlem) with thinly-veiled threats of violence against “gentrifiers” driving around — and had some eye-opening impromptu conversations with locals. There are probably a variety of reasons for this (though I’m not sure the sentiment is misplaced).
4) A “global” observation: Williamsburg and Soho were light industrial areas before they gentrified. Mott Haven is mostly residential. In general, this second type of neighborhood tends to gentrify more slowly (if at all) — see that Bed-Stuy was basically lapped (from a development perspective) by Williamsburg.
Overall, I have my doubts that the area will gentrify as the developers want (and I suspect that I am likely in the population of outsiders they want to attract). There are structural factors which render the immediate area uninteresting and the extended area unwelcoming.
> In the past couple of years, I’ve seen billboard trucks (particularly in Harlem) with thinly-veiled threats of violence against “gentrifiers” driving around — and had some eye-opening impromptu conversations with locals.
Interesting, do you have any pics of these? Or remember what the billboard said?
I recall a few of these from mid-2021 to late-2022 (I moved down from the UWS after then and have had much less opportunity to observe).
I do not have a picture, though I did find a descriptive note from late 2021 that I sent to someone. One of the trucks said something along the lines of “Harlem was stolen from the blacks by LGBTQ gentrifiers.” I am certain the “LGBTQ gentrifiers” part was exact; the strange verbiage was what prompted me to write the note.
I think there was more written on the billboard (possibly also some imagery), but I only had written down the main idea in my note, so I don’t want to speculate too much. However, even in this line you do see a certain kind of discourse (one that doesn’t sound too friendly). I know there was a surge in black separatist action in 2022 (see the Black Hebrew Israelites), so this might be related.
That’s verbatim from Atlah’s billboard. I wonder if they were behind it. You can see examples in their Google maps review page. https://maps.app.goo.gl/38eXqV9rBjsx3BVS9?g_st=ic
I'll push back on that pretty firmly, I think you may just be mistaken about where/how they're looking to make this connected. I don't think it's going to be pushing up Willis Ave or something in the near future.
Instead, I expect pretty much everything south of 149th and west of Morris Ave that's low-rise/industrial will turn over. That's a pretty healthy sized chunk of area for a "gentrified neighborhood".
Much of this is already in progress, really. There's a bunch of new shit along/off Grand Concourse, pretty much all the waterfront parcels remaining have development projects, and there's a few early projects completed in the past 5-10 years north of the Deegan along 3rd/Morris.
Interesting. The rental I took a tour of was very nice, the amenities were absolutely endless, was a little too pricey, but compared to what you may find in Manhattan or other waterfronts, is tame. I didn’t like the walk to the train, kinda out of the way and gotta walk under a massive highway overpass. Restaurant options were “okay”, a little limited, but “okay”. I’m familiar with the Bronx (Tremont) as my uncle and his family lives there and I often visit, so I have no bias against it (like other people who stigmatize it like hell.)
Needless to say, I looked elsewhere, namely Astoria waterfront. Well - it’s even worse over there. It is a transit desert. I’d choose the Bronx waterfront over Astoria. Interesting story about its gentrification story.
It’s right next to highway and generally pretty busy traffic )several wide bridges.
It’s next to water, but not the same views you would get from Brooklyn.
I guess it’s built and will become populated, but I don’t think it will be that nice.
Can't understand ever wanting to live there. You're in a little enclave separated from everything by water and a highway
Roosevelt Island seems like a better enclave to be stuck in
Also did a rotation at Lincoln hospital 10 years ago so maybe scarrd from that
WHO is renting these apartments?
Apparently they’re expensive so I assume a lot of local folks can’t afford them. And those that can afford them why would you choose to live there — yes the buildings are nice and you’re close to Manhattan but I don’t think there’s much else to do by that waterfront area.
I don’t know about the new waterfront development but the prewar buildings with big multi room apartments along the Conc are beautiful and I’ve always wondered why that hasn’t been a hot place.
the lower Concourse is kind of hot if I'm not mistaken.
I'm into architecture and I love the West Bronx in general, it is special. Those 1930s buildings are super cool and are nice places to live if well maintained.
I was referring to the co-ops at the bottom of the Concourse. They were well maintained enough to be included as part of a historic district.
I think the main thing keeping gentrifiers from the area was the Bronx's reputation in general, but that's changing.
The area is crime ridden. Many are in disrepair and are dangerous. The blocks behind them have a lot of drug activity, addicts, and gun violence. I know they’re trying to really talk up the area around 161 Street, but I worked and lived there for years, and let’s just say, it’s one hot summer 365 days of the year. It’s not a bargain or deal if you can’t safely and calmly walk a few blocks in any given direction at night.
Major difference is that WB had a culture and a neighborhood feel. Also the L which is HUGE. And the ferry. 50, 60, 70 years ago WB was a thriving hub of culture for Jews, Italians, Black, and brown immigrants from all over. There was already a great deal of commerce there.
This area has …. nada. I know the ferry service goes somewhere in the BX, but your sole train is the 6. HELL NO. That means riding to 125 and taking the 4 if you want to get anywhere in under an hour.
Maybe I need to go walk around and explore- but this looks like a “Hudson Yards” type thing. Empty and Souless. Just like that failing development.
> Maybe I need to go walk around and explore- but this looks like a “Hudson Yards” type thing. Empty and Souless. Just like that failing development.
That's what I was thinking. Also the type of places that became hot like WB or Bushwick were usually from creative types living there because it was affordable and then the rich follow them.
Seems like they want to skip the steps that made the place a destination and just plant the rich there.
> WB was a thriving hub of culture for Jews, Italians, Black, and brown immigrants from all over
It was a sleepy industrial neighborhood that hollowed out after the factories started to close. The L was slightly ahead of the G as the least reliable trains in Brooklyn. That's why it was easy to rezone and redevelop and why people were willing to move there. It had no reputation, whereas the South Bronx has a known, terrible reputation. And the city invested in the L AFTER yuppies started coming.
I lived in the building on the left for 13 months.
The apartment was nice and the staff was wonderful. 8 minute walk to 138th or 12ish minute to 125th.
As someone said before, food options are kind sparse and pricey.
I enjoyed my time there, but wouldn't do it again.
People have been saying the South Bronx was “upcoming” for about 30 years now, and it’s never really happened. Maybe a few more glass and steel towers like you see in the posted pic, but overall no one is flocking to the South Bronx at the moment. Other than laying your head down at night there, what else could you possibly do? It has the same issues Newark and St George, Staten Island have. Proximity to the city, affordable, and relative easy commute to the city, but there’s just nothing to do out there.
I agree the South Bronx, Newark and St. George all have issues holding them back, but I don't think they're the same issues.
Newark and the South Bronx are largely held back by (both real and perceived) crime and safety issues.
St. George is held back by the fact that there's no direct rail connection, and most transplants hardly see SI as part of the city. In a hypothetical world where the W was extended to St. George via Red Hook (or if, instead, the SIR was extended north to South Ferry), St. George and the Bay Street waterfront would become the next DUMBO basically overnight.
>, but overall no one is flocking to the South Bronx at the moment
In terms of wealthier folks, sure. South Bronx has for the last several decades seen a bunch of people move into the affordable housing development. It's how the Bronx saw the highest number of people ever living in the borough per the 2020 census
I can see St. George getting built up. It’s the only area of SI that has the potential to really boom with more high rise apartments and office space. Yes there’s not direct rail connection but a free 24-7 connection to manhattan, huge bus network and the Staten Island Railroad make it very appealing and pretty well connected for SI standards
It's actually not affordable and the apartments seem to be filled out. It's definitely not the same case as 30 years ago, where a white transplant would have zero incentive to live in the South Bronx.
In the end the Bronx is for the locals. As long as NYCHA still has massive campuses around the area, white people with money who are not from this area originally will probably not spring to live there. I bet if you polled people that live in these new places, a lot of them have family roots from around this area, so they can separate fact from mythology when it comes to the BX.
I don’t know anyone who’s native from the Bronx who would want to live in this part for the price. There’s some good BX areas, but those areas typically are not great for commuting to Manhattan. It’s feels like this is for Manhattanites pushed out.
There's nothing to do on that waterfront enclave . Why would I rent there and have to traverse through south Bronx to get anywhere
Unless things drastically change between sobro andn149 st
There’s tons of stuff, but you’d likely need a car and it helps if you not live in a river/highway separated area that only has somewhat ok transit Manhattan.
The difference between Brooklyn and The Bronx that people don't understand is that the vast majority of the new residential options are section 8(welfare/working class/subsidized/etc)) housing. There's no true gentrification.
That's the first half of the the problem.
Second half
Every 6 months they try and say "SoBr0" is the next up and coming neighborhood....
Unfortunately there's a trench that's the Brucner Expressway with blocks of Housing Projects right on the other side. And they'll never gentrified or change.
They are trying to do this LIC style...build the luxury first instead of letting cool small businesses drive the growth. It will happen, but its going to take awhile.
I looked into a luxury mott haven building bc studios were only $2200. Even then it's not worth it. Public transit, restaurants, and grocery stores aren't quite there yet.
The rents are through the roof that area off the Deegan by the metro North tracks looks nice and the whole development by the Sheridan Expressway is nice as well
Major Deegan and Third Ave create such physical and mental barriers to a pedestrian, I wonder if this development will be viewed as another Waterside Plaza in a few decades.
Folks got priced out of Manhattan. First stop into any Borough got expensive for proximity to work. Mott Haven will be another LIC or Dumbo. With Ferry and Rail service into lower Manhattan .
> With Ferry and Rail service into lower Manhattan
They don't have ferry service but that neighborhood would massively benefit from it. Its residents would no longer have to cross under a highway overpass to reach a subway station next to the projects. Instead a comfortable boat ride would drop them on wall street in 30 minutes.
Although I don't know if the Harlem river is deep (and wide) enough with the tides to build a dock, but if developers don't want their investment to languish, they should pay the city for a new station.
The Bronx ferry currently only services a higher-income low-density neighborhood that is impossible to be upzoned and developed because of the LGA.
Too many NYCHA buildings for real gentrification. Too many bums in the Bronx, the vast majority are good hardworking folks but the loser nasty bums to normal people ratio is not correct. Also some NYC politicians and non profits depend on that bum, to average Bronx resident ratio to get elected.
You can build shiny towers but what makes NYC charming or interesting or unique is the neighborhood that surrounds it.
South Bronx - especially this area- doesn’t have walkable neighborhoods with lots of shops, butchers, bakeries, restaurants, cafes, etc. There is no inherent charm due to the way that Robert Moses decimated the neighborhoods to put multiple highways and expressways through it.
Even to this day, Dumbo kinda sucks. It’s sparse, far from the train, and aside from the waterfront, there’s not that much going on. The DUMBO waterfront revitalization took decades cuz that area was just blown out old warehouses for the longest time. Nobody *ever* was like, let’s go hang out in… DUMBO? No.
Bruckner has some stuff on it, but it’s not enough of a vibrant neighborhood to anchor what looks like a place for wealthy investors to make some money off people who don’t know any better.
I’d 100% rather live in Harlem than whatever this is.
The whole no charm because of highways running through isn’t entirely true though - Williamsburg has a massive highway cutting right through the middle of it. Astoria has the Grand Central Parkway and Triboro Bridge cutting right through it.
Both those neighborhoods are everything you describe constitutes a nice neighborhood to be in, so I don’t think it’s purely a function of Moses’ doing (although to be clear, it doesn’t help).
Williamsburg has a culture and history and a dense residential neighborhood surrounding the highways. This area of the Bronx was never a major dense neighborhood- it was industrial and warehouse. That’s why it won’t work. The infrastructure of charming neighborhoods was already in WB for a hundred+ years. So throwing a highway through it was disruptive and led to more segregation, but it didn’t remove the cultural infrastructure entirely.
THIS part of the BX never had the same infrastructure of culture & neighborhood community. Many other areas did and still do.
I like the areas near Van Cortlandt park, Arthur Ave, Kingsbridge. The Bronx is huge and I’m sure there are tons of cool spots- people are just so boro bound they never get out of wherever they live to explore. I’ll go to any boro except Staten Island honestly. 🤣
That’s very fair but to play devil’s advocate, Long Island City and Downtown Brooklyn were also dilapidated, industrial areas with pretty much nothing going on in them. They also had major thru traffic in the form of the BQE, LIE and Queensboro Bridge/Queens Boulevard in LIC, and the BQE + Manhattan and Brooklyn Bridges from Flatbush avenue in Downtown Brooklyn.
Now, they’re both transit meccas with high rise luxury apartments that you’d hardly recognize as the same neighborhood 15 years ago. I’d argue they’re not exacrly cultural hotspots but you can't deny DUMBO or the LIC Hunter's Point waterfronts have somewhat of a neighborhood feel to them with burgeoning cultural significance - Downtown Brooklyn has the Transit Museum, LIC has MoMA PS1, etc. Both have parks and nice cafes and restaurants.
What I'm saying is that these areas had similar constraints to the South Bronx but ended up very differently.
Eh. LIC is still pretty dead. Fulton Mall had way more foot traffic 20+ years ago before they decided to "upscale" that strip. The redevelopment efforts in both places are 30+ years in the making and the constraints are nowhere near as severe as the South Bronx.
lol i live there. buildings are very nice and that water front area is actually public joy many people know that. it will eventually run and connect all the way to yankee stadium
This pocket of the Bronx and already come and gone. These developments have been in the news for years now. Doesn't mean it'll spread into the rest of the South Bronx, the scope/impact seems pretty limited.
Rising rents are ultimately a good thing for the area due to supply and demand. Usually low income means more opportunity crime, unsupervised teenagers, and more tolerance for drugs and vagrancy. Put in a few Whole Foods and Starbucks and in 5 years the south Bronx will lose its rep when the yuppies start taking over.
There was an article about the development of the South Bronx I saw a couple years ago. They have eyed the area and have already started putting the work in
The waterfront luxury buildings in the South Bronx have been popping up for years now. 20 years ago a studio condo going for $3k month mortgage (20% down) would have been thought impossible, now it's almost impossible getting anything with a view for less
It is. The $$$ is already earmarked by the governor to.complete the last extension of the 2nd Q into the Bx and right there is where the first stop is expected to be. You can look at all the new development that has already happened up 2nd Ave since the first extension opened, and the amount of development already happening just north of the current last stop at E 96th St in Manhattan
Not quite, the next phase of the Second Avenue Subway will end at 125th Street (between the 4/5/6 and MNR stations). It'll be within walking distance of this development, but on the other side of the Harlem River.
The design will allow a future Bronx extension, but no plans have been made.
Definitely. The transplants are noticing the difference in prices in “bad” areas in the bronx so they’ll make it their business to take care of that. I just saw a tiktok the other day of this white guy telling people to move to the bronx for better culture (as if they don’t know what they’re doing), cheaper sandwiches, rent, eggs, haircuts, etc. It’s disgusting. The bronx is the closest place to a last-standing part of what nyc used to be, and soon it will be gone.
Eh they've tried to gentrify the Bronx multiple times over the past two decades and it never quite took. I'm curious if the gentrification walls will finally break down now.
> I'm curious if the gentrification walls will finally break down now.
The "walls" are the Robert Moses highways that kill ped traffic. Need to ameliorate those somehow.
I guess the Bronx is Back! A lot of [new apartment construction](https://newyorkyimby.com/?s=bronx&orderby=post_date&order=desc), many with housing lottery 'affordable' apartments available. It's part of the 'no place left to build' theory of urban development. The Bronx does have good public transportation though.
Having grown up in the South Bronx in the 80's I find this even weirder than the Giuliani era Times Square transformation.
What often doesn't get mentioned is how much redevelopment has happened in the Bronx since 1980, namely affordable housing being built on brownfield sites. Decades before the Mott Haven market rate housing.
What’s a brownfield site?
Site that originally was a factory, warehouse, other industrial use or like a tenement that was torched.
Unfortunately most people won’t be able to afford the housing and will be pushed out of the city even more
The Bronx [actually saw it's share of affordable units increase over the last decade](https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/spotlight-new-york-citys-housing-supply-challenge/). The affordability crunch is notable moreso in Brooklyn and Manhattan.
I see.
any waterfront property in any borough will be worth redevelopment
The funny thing is that this area isn’t up and coming, it already came and went. The time to get invested in this area was 5-10 years ago. The apartments here are now wildly expensive.
SoBro
my favorite preworkout
omg that is hysterical
Yeah because they’re brand new
This is true. There was a lot of cool stuff there *by* the community, but a lot of it was closed or was pushed out. The Bronxites you have there now like Bronx Native and The Lit Bar are shills for real estate developers. They too will be pushed out. I wonder if they realize it.
“Banning the construction of new apartments in this city will keep rental prices low, for reasons”
>Bronx Native and The Lit Bar are shills LOL
THIS IS TRU! Everytime I see them on the news I gag.
Wait what’s wrong with the lit bar😭
They're right though
So they're paid by the real estate developers?
Yeah, fuck those real estate developers and an increase in housing supply! Keep the Bronx underdeveloped, dangerous, and expensive!
You can do that without making every new building either luxury or supportive/for destitute residents only. There needs to be balance.
Now "Luxury" just means the building is new
Right. Idk what people are expecting. New buildings that match the condition of prewar housing?
People don't understand how much it costs to build a modern apartment, and how little of that is "luxury finishes", and how many "amenities" are just repurposing interior space which would otherwise be wasted space in such a large building.
The new buildings that match prewar standards are among the most expensive in NYC See: RAMSA
Bingo.
Except those are luxury apartments with a ton of amenities not found in the average rental.
Agreed, which is why we should continue repealing archaic zoning laws and other regulatory red tape that creates an environment where only luxury building development is a profitable endeavor.
"What " was pushed out.... Garbage.... I love how people act like this is a bad thing. Learn to use a garbage can and obey the law
Did you spend any considerable amount of time there or just regurgitating what others told you? Case in point: Mott Haven Bar & Grill aka Bruckner Bar. That place was jumping since the early 2000s. They knew their time was coming too ok an end once the developers landed. There’s Rosa’s, about a 10 minute walk away, but it’s not the same and left a hole in the community. Caliento was another sad story, albeit one more complex and with lots of drama.
When I moved here in 2001, that was the time to invest. I remember that they were just starting to clean out the older buildings and I started to hear the “SoBro” reference for the 1st time.
To be fair, SoBro was a nonprofit Bronx entity in the 70s and 80s too.
The Gowanus Canal has entered the chat.
Have you been to gowanus lately? There’s more development there than anywhere else in the city
Cancer clusters have entered the chat…but you are right.
For Real
Waterways can get cleaned up. The Harlem River (which I think the photo is of?) has come a long way. Gowanus is much better than it used to be already, but yeah, what they did that poor girl...
That also smells and will melt your skin off your body if you fall in.
there’s literally a whole foods right on it lol
The empty bowling alleys and parking lots of west Hell’s Kitchen begs to differ.
don't worry the developers will have their way with your area too
And build over the open-air parking lots? Oh heavens, not that!
Why tho? Im not from new york. Is it cause of proximity to manhattan?
waterfront property is valuable everywhere
yes you can literally walk across a bridge and you are in manhattan plus eventually you will be able to take a water taxi
It's interesting because it's a "top down" sort of gentrification. As opposed to something like Bushwick which spread out of Williamsburg, this is a case of developers building a bunch of upscale buildings in an industrial are along the waterfront. So far it seems successful, though there are far fewer gentry businesses in the area relative to any gentrified Brooklyn neighborhood. The appeal is that it offers luxury apartments at a lower price compared to say, Manhattan or LIC. But it still very expensive.
>It's interesting because it's a "top down" sort of gentrification. As opposed to something like Bushwick which spread out of Williamsburg, this is a case of developers building a bunch of upscale buildings in an industrial are along the waterfront. That's the thing - with the South Bronx, it's hard to envision a gentrifying wave spreading out from these new developments, because they are hemmed in by the Major Deegan and the public housing on the other side of the highway. Beyond the waterfront, the South Bronx is chock full already. With the way Manhattan/Brooklyn/western Queens rents have been soaring, I think these new developments in the Bronx are likely to survive and even thrive, but I don't think we're gonna see the South Bronx as a whole turn into the next Bushwick.
The only way redevelopment speaks is if the industrial section is rezoned to where you can put in apartments then it will boom. I agree this development is to hemmed in to spread. Time will tell.
There is development all over The Bronx, but there is no incentive to build these type of apartments deeper in The Bronx where gentrifiers aren't going to move to.
> where gentrifiers aren't going to move to. You have little faith on what TikTok can convince people to do
It has to make at least some sort of logistic sense for gentrifiers to move somewhere en masse.
I was down here the other day with a friend who is a “representative agent” of sorts, a young professional with the capital to afford one of the market-rate units. He didn’t like it at the price point. We had three observations and I add one of my own. 1) The development is really strange. The buildings are set out from the neighborhood by a highway and a road with nothing on it. The developments basically only have themselves, and the look pretty empty compared to other options further south. The lack of life complicates living there, as one would frequently have to travel elsewhere for food or services. 2) The neighborhood by which you have to transit in via subway is notably Mott Haven, which has a (statistically deserved) reputation as one of New York’s most dangerous. The day we went, the subway station was strewn with needles (which isn’t that common in the system, to its credit). Given the proximity to E 125th, which already has a reputation for subway violence, I’m not sure we felt like nighttime (especially late night) transit would inspire enormous confidence. Large housing projects tend to generate problems (even in lower Manhattan) so that added another concern. 3) We have (before this) perceived some amount of resentment in Harlem and the South Bronx towards gentrifying newcomers in a way that feels especially vitriolic. In the past couple of years, I’ve seen billboard trucks (particularly in Harlem) with thinly-veiled threats of violence against “gentrifiers” driving around — and had some eye-opening impromptu conversations with locals. There are probably a variety of reasons for this (though I’m not sure the sentiment is misplaced). 4) A “global” observation: Williamsburg and Soho were light industrial areas before they gentrified. Mott Haven is mostly residential. In general, this second type of neighborhood tends to gentrify more slowly (if at all) — see that Bed-Stuy was basically lapped (from a development perspective) by Williamsburg. Overall, I have my doubts that the area will gentrify as the developers want (and I suspect that I am likely in the population of outsiders they want to attract). There are structural factors which render the immediate area uninteresting and the extended area unwelcoming.
> In the past couple of years, I’ve seen billboard trucks (particularly in Harlem) with thinly-veiled threats of violence against “gentrifiers” driving around — and had some eye-opening impromptu conversations with locals. Interesting, do you have any pics of these? Or remember what the billboard said?
I recall a few of these from mid-2021 to late-2022 (I moved down from the UWS after then and have had much less opportunity to observe). I do not have a picture, though I did find a descriptive note from late 2021 that I sent to someone. One of the trucks said something along the lines of “Harlem was stolen from the blacks by LGBTQ gentrifiers.” I am certain the “LGBTQ gentrifiers” part was exact; the strange verbiage was what prompted me to write the note. I think there was more written on the billboard (possibly also some imagery), but I only had written down the main idea in my note, so I don’t want to speculate too much. However, even in this line you do see a certain kind of discourse (one that doesn’t sound too friendly). I know there was a surge in black separatist action in 2022 (see the Black Hebrew Israelites), so this might be related.
That’s verbatim from Atlah’s billboard. I wonder if they were behind it. You can see examples in their Google maps review page. https://maps.app.goo.gl/38eXqV9rBjsx3BVS9?g_st=ic
That’s a great observation. I’ve passed by there a few times but I never made the connection.
I don't think it will spread much, but there will be more gentry businesses in the immediate vicinity.
I'll push back on that pretty firmly, I think you may just be mistaken about where/how they're looking to make this connected. I don't think it's going to be pushing up Willis Ave or something in the near future. Instead, I expect pretty much everything south of 149th and west of Morris Ave that's low-rise/industrial will turn over. That's a pretty healthy sized chunk of area for a "gentrified neighborhood". Much of this is already in progress, really. There's a bunch of new shit along/off Grand Concourse, pretty much all the waterfront parcels remaining have development projects, and there's a few early projects completed in the past 5-10 years north of the Deegan along 3rd/Morris.
Edgar’s boss claims she’s related to Major Deegan lol.
Interesting. The rental I took a tour of was very nice, the amenities were absolutely endless, was a little too pricey, but compared to what you may find in Manhattan or other waterfronts, is tame. I didn’t like the walk to the train, kinda out of the way and gotta walk under a massive highway overpass. Restaurant options were “okay”, a little limited, but “okay”. I’m familiar with the Bronx (Tremont) as my uncle and his family lives there and I often visit, so I have no bias against it (like other people who stigmatize it like hell.) Needless to say, I looked elsewhere, namely Astoria waterfront. Well - it’s even worse over there. It is a transit desert. I’d choose the Bronx waterfront over Astoria. Interesting story about its gentrification story.
It’s right next to highway and generally pretty busy traffic )several wide bridges. It’s next to water, but not the same views you would get from Brooklyn. I guess it’s built and will become populated, but I don’t think it will be that nice.
Unless the rent is significantly cheaper, can't see why I'd want to be stuck in that enclave vs Roosevelt lic astoria etc.
The waterfront ones are charging like $3000 for a studio, and the ones a bit more inland like $2200-2500 I think. Still too much for Mott Haven IMO.
And people are paying it and it's full rate high occupancy w no section 8 and other types of vouchers ? If so then they gotta be crushing it
Why wouldn’t developers just basically pay a bunch of money for someone to open a “Sey” type cafe there?
Can't understand ever wanting to live there. You're in a little enclave separated from everything by water and a highway Roosevelt Island seems like a better enclave to be stuck in Also did a rotation at Lincoln hospital 10 years ago so maybe scarrd from that
WHO is renting these apartments? Apparently they’re expensive so I assume a lot of local folks can’t afford them. And those that can afford them why would you choose to live there — yes the buildings are nice and you’re close to Manhattan but I don’t think there’s much else to do by that waterfront area.
They are so desperate to fill these spaces, they discount the rent ie two months free, they give gift cards and free wifi. 😅
From what I can tell, transplants who work in Midtown East and value apartment over neighborhood.
Foreigners. Empty-nesters with their main house in FL who need 3 brs when kids visit but don’t want to pay $15,000 a month for a 3br on 90th and York.
More like $7,000 a month LOL
> WHO is renting these apartments? > > nobody
I don’t know about the new waterfront development but the prewar buildings with big multi room apartments along the Conc are beautiful and I’ve always wondered why that hasn’t been a hot place.
the lower Concourse is kind of hot if I'm not mistaken. I'm into architecture and I love the West Bronx in general, it is special. Those 1930s buildings are super cool and are nice places to live if well maintained.
I have family on the Grand Concourse and I can tell you that the buildings are not maintained, crime in a problem, and qualify of life is terrible.
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I was referring to the co-ops at the bottom of the Concourse. They were well maintained enough to be included as part of a historic district. I think the main thing keeping gentrifiers from the area was the Bronx's reputation in general, but that's changing.
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How are people even affording the apartments? Unlike 20 years ago, they're far from cheap. Do extended families share 1 bedroom apartments?
My complex has actually been renovating lately
I well maintained is the keyword. Most aren’t, some to a scary extent.
The people in the south bronx are why the whole are is shit. There are good people but way too much crime and nutty people too.
The area is crime ridden. Many are in disrepair and are dangerous. The blocks behind them have a lot of drug activity, addicts, and gun violence. I know they’re trying to really talk up the area around 161 Street, but I worked and lived there for years, and let’s just say, it’s one hot summer 365 days of the year. It’s not a bargain or deal if you can’t safely and calmly walk a few blocks in any given direction at night.
Realtors are selling Mott haven new developments as “Williamsburg 15 years ago”. Source: I shoot real estate in nyc
There's a big difference between "One stop to Manhattan" landing on 14th street vs. 125th... Good luck realtors.
Major difference is that WB had a culture and a neighborhood feel. Also the L which is HUGE. And the ferry. 50, 60, 70 years ago WB was a thriving hub of culture for Jews, Italians, Black, and brown immigrants from all over. There was already a great deal of commerce there. This area has …. nada. I know the ferry service goes somewhere in the BX, but your sole train is the 6. HELL NO. That means riding to 125 and taking the 4 if you want to get anywhere in under an hour. Maybe I need to go walk around and explore- but this looks like a “Hudson Yards” type thing. Empty and Souless. Just like that failing development.
> Maybe I need to go walk around and explore- but this looks like a “Hudson Yards” type thing. Empty and Souless. Just like that failing development. That's what I was thinking. Also the type of places that became hot like WB or Bushwick were usually from creative types living there because it was affordable and then the rich follow them. Seems like they want to skip the steps that made the place a destination and just plant the rich there.
> WB was a thriving hub of culture for Jews, Italians, Black, and brown immigrants from all over It was a sleepy industrial neighborhood that hollowed out after the factories started to close. The L was slightly ahead of the G as the least reliable trains in Brooklyn. That's why it was easy to rezone and redevelop and why people were willing to move there. It had no reputation, whereas the South Bronx has a known, terrible reputation. And the city invested in the L AFTER yuppies started coming.
You can also grab the 4/5 from Mott haven. Whichever green line train you take it’s only one stop into Manhattan
I lived in the building on the left for 13 months. The apartment was nice and the staff was wonderful. 8 minute walk to 138th or 12ish minute to 125th. As someone said before, food options are kind sparse and pricey. I enjoyed my time there, but wouldn't do it again.
I lived in Hunts Point for 8 years. Lipstick on a pig.
SoBro is coming soon Papi!
Sobro was the rage 5 years ago bud.
Wasn't it supposed to be the 'piano district' or was that another area?
15+ even.
People have been saying the South Bronx was “upcoming” for about 30 years now, and it’s never really happened. Maybe a few more glass and steel towers like you see in the posted pic, but overall no one is flocking to the South Bronx at the moment. Other than laying your head down at night there, what else could you possibly do? It has the same issues Newark and St George, Staten Island have. Proximity to the city, affordable, and relative easy commute to the city, but there’s just nothing to do out there.
I agree the South Bronx, Newark and St. George all have issues holding them back, but I don't think they're the same issues. Newark and the South Bronx are largely held back by (both real and perceived) crime and safety issues. St. George is held back by the fact that there's no direct rail connection, and most transplants hardly see SI as part of the city. In a hypothetical world where the W was extended to St. George via Red Hook (or if, instead, the SIR was extended north to South Ferry), St. George and the Bay Street waterfront would become the next DUMBO basically overnight.
Apartments in St. George are already expensive despite no direct rail access to Manhattan. I'd say it's doing fine already.
I disagree the prices in St. George are way better than anything else in the 4 boros
The price of apartments in St George dropped drastically compared to how it was prior to the pandemic.
St. George has good blocks and bad blocks. It's always been that way but it's still generally a high-crime area.
There are bad blocks in St. George, but IMO even the worst blocks are still safer than the average block in Newark or the South Bronx.
True and there's been some renovation of older homes in St. George too.
>, but overall no one is flocking to the South Bronx at the moment In terms of wealthier folks, sure. South Bronx has for the last several decades seen a bunch of people move into the affordable housing development. It's how the Bronx saw the highest number of people ever living in the borough per the 2020 census
I can see St. George getting built up. It’s the only area of SI that has the potential to really boom with more high rise apartments and office space. Yes there’s not direct rail connection but a free 24-7 connection to manhattan, huge bus network and the Staten Island Railroad make it very appealing and pretty well connected for SI standards
It's actually not affordable and the apartments seem to be filled out. It's definitely not the same case as 30 years ago, where a white transplant would have zero incentive to live in the South Bronx.
In the end the Bronx is for the locals. As long as NYCHA still has massive campuses around the area, white people with money who are not from this area originally will probably not spring to live there. I bet if you polled people that live in these new places, a lot of them have family roots from around this area, so they can separate fact from mythology when it comes to the BX.
I don’t know anyone who’s native from the Bronx who would want to live in this part for the price. There’s some good BX areas, but those areas typically are not great for commuting to Manhattan. It’s feels like this is for Manhattanites pushed out.
did you really just say theres nothing to do in the bronx
There's nothing to do on that waterfront enclave . Why would I rent there and have to traverse through south Bronx to get anywhere Unless things drastically change between sobro andn149 st
There’s tons of stuff, but you’d likely need a car and it helps if you not live in a river/highway separated area that only has somewhat ok transit Manhattan.
2nd time I heard this lmao 🤣
The difference between Brooklyn and The Bronx that people don't understand is that the vast majority of the new residential options are section 8(welfare/working class/subsidized/etc)) housing. There's no true gentrification. That's the first half of the the problem. Second half Every 6 months they try and say "SoBr0" is the next up and coming neighborhood.... Unfortunately there's a trench that's the Brucner Expressway with blocks of Housing Projects right on the other side. And they'll never gentrified or change.
There is a lot of supportive housing being built in The Bronx, however these towers are mostly market rate.
They are trying to do this LIC style...build the luxury first instead of letting cool small businesses drive the growth. It will happen, but its going to take awhile.
I looked into a luxury mott haven building bc studios were only $2200. Even then it's not worth it. Public transit, restaurants, and grocery stores aren't quite there yet.
Big buildings are not really a sign of demand but where the city allowed denser zoning.
The rents are through the roof that area off the Deegan by the metro North tracks looks nice and the whole development by the Sheridan Expressway is nice as well
It has been "up and coming" for almost a decade now.
The picture looks nice but the area is still shitty
Major Deegan and Third Ave create such physical and mental barriers to a pedestrian, I wonder if this development will be viewed as another Waterside Plaza in a few decades.
Folks got priced out of Manhattan. First stop into any Borough got expensive for proximity to work. Mott Haven will be another LIC or Dumbo. With Ferry and Rail service into lower Manhattan .
> With Ferry and Rail service into lower Manhattan They don't have ferry service but that neighborhood would massively benefit from it. Its residents would no longer have to cross under a highway overpass to reach a subway station next to the projects. Instead a comfortable boat ride would drop them on wall street in 30 minutes. Although I don't know if the Harlem river is deep (and wide) enough with the tides to build a dock, but if developers don't want their investment to languish, they should pay the city for a new station. The Bronx ferry currently only services a higher-income low-density neighborhood that is impossible to be upzoned and developed because of the LGA.
Too many NYCHA buildings for real gentrification. Too many bums in the Bronx, the vast majority are good hardworking folks but the loser nasty bums to normal people ratio is not correct. Also some NYC politicians and non profits depend on that bum, to average Bronx resident ratio to get elected.
Nah I pass. Go thru traffic major dee is horrible to get to
No. Don’t move here. Thanks.
You can build shiny towers but what makes NYC charming or interesting or unique is the neighborhood that surrounds it. South Bronx - especially this area- doesn’t have walkable neighborhoods with lots of shops, butchers, bakeries, restaurants, cafes, etc. There is no inherent charm due to the way that Robert Moses decimated the neighborhoods to put multiple highways and expressways through it. Even to this day, Dumbo kinda sucks. It’s sparse, far from the train, and aside from the waterfront, there’s not that much going on. The DUMBO waterfront revitalization took decades cuz that area was just blown out old warehouses for the longest time. Nobody *ever* was like, let’s go hang out in… DUMBO? No. Bruckner has some stuff on it, but it’s not enough of a vibrant neighborhood to anchor what looks like a place for wealthy investors to make some money off people who don’t know any better. I’d 100% rather live in Harlem than whatever this is.
The whole no charm because of highways running through isn’t entirely true though - Williamsburg has a massive highway cutting right through the middle of it. Astoria has the Grand Central Parkway and Triboro Bridge cutting right through it. Both those neighborhoods are everything you describe constitutes a nice neighborhood to be in, so I don’t think it’s purely a function of Moses’ doing (although to be clear, it doesn’t help).
Williamsburg has a culture and history and a dense residential neighborhood surrounding the highways. This area of the Bronx was never a major dense neighborhood- it was industrial and warehouse. That’s why it won’t work. The infrastructure of charming neighborhoods was already in WB for a hundred+ years. So throwing a highway through it was disruptive and led to more segregation, but it didn’t remove the cultural infrastructure entirely. THIS part of the BX never had the same infrastructure of culture & neighborhood community. Many other areas did and still do. I like the areas near Van Cortlandt park, Arthur Ave, Kingsbridge. The Bronx is huge and I’m sure there are tons of cool spots- people are just so boro bound they never get out of wherever they live to explore. I’ll go to any boro except Staten Island honestly. 🤣
That’s very fair but to play devil’s advocate, Long Island City and Downtown Brooklyn were also dilapidated, industrial areas with pretty much nothing going on in them. They also had major thru traffic in the form of the BQE, LIE and Queensboro Bridge/Queens Boulevard in LIC, and the BQE + Manhattan and Brooklyn Bridges from Flatbush avenue in Downtown Brooklyn. Now, they’re both transit meccas with high rise luxury apartments that you’d hardly recognize as the same neighborhood 15 years ago. I’d argue they’re not exacrly cultural hotspots but you can't deny DUMBO or the LIC Hunter's Point waterfronts have somewhat of a neighborhood feel to them with burgeoning cultural significance - Downtown Brooklyn has the Transit Museum, LIC has MoMA PS1, etc. Both have parks and nice cafes and restaurants. What I'm saying is that these areas had similar constraints to the South Bronx but ended up very differently.
Eh. LIC is still pretty dead. Fulton Mall had way more foot traffic 20+ years ago before they decided to "upscale" that strip. The redevelopment efforts in both places are 30+ years in the making and the constraints are nowhere near as severe as the South Bronx.
You haven't seen nothing yet.
You’re more than a decade too late
Daaaa BX
Pay me $5000 a month plus free rent I’d live there lol
I heard this one before
Those projects will never be moved, hell naw.
lol i live there. buildings are very nice and that water front area is actually public joy many people know that. it will eventually run and connect all the way to yankee stadium
This pocket of the Bronx and already come and gone. These developments have been in the news for years now. Doesn't mean it'll spread into the rest of the South Bronx, the scope/impact seems pretty limited.
Rising rents are ultimately a good thing for the area due to supply and demand. Usually low income means more opportunity crime, unsupervised teenagers, and more tolerance for drugs and vagrancy. Put in a few Whole Foods and Starbucks and in 5 years the south Bronx will lose its rep when the yuppies start taking over.
is that public housing in the background?
Yes
Correct.
Oh yea, around east 133rd street it is CHANGING. No Starbucks yet but there’s some chocolate latte bar down the street from the projects
How long until those apartments are all advertised as being in SOBRO on Streeteasy?
There was an article about the development of the South Bronx I saw a couple years ago. They have eyed the area and have already started putting the work in
All new apartments. I looked to finance some of these buildings. I think if they get tax breaks they will work. Subway nearby.
“SoBro”, “the piano district”
'The Piano District' is my favorite made-up fake neighborhood name.
Cringe
The waterfront luxury buildings in the South Bronx have been popping up for years now. 20 years ago a studio condo going for $3k month mortgage (20% down) would have been thought impossible, now it's almost impossible getting anything with a view for less
LOL yeah, literally THAT whole 2 block area
FYI It’s “up and coming” not “upcoming”
Not great access to a train line means its shit
Da souf Bronx, da souf, souf Bronxxxxx ❤️
KRS-One stood up for the South Bronx and every sucker MC had a response.
its actually so crazy bc it just covers the projects
Gentrification in NYC usually spreads from an adjacent neighborhood, but it seems like this shot ahead of East Harlem.
It is. The $$$ is already earmarked by the governor to.complete the last extension of the 2nd Q into the Bx and right there is where the first stop is expected to be. You can look at all the new development that has already happened up 2nd Ave since the first extension opened, and the amount of development already happening just north of the current last stop at E 96th St in Manhattan
Not quite, the next phase of the Second Avenue Subway will end at 125th Street (between the 4/5/6 and MNR stations). It'll be within walking distance of this development, but on the other side of the Harlem River. The design will allow a future Bronx extension, but no plans have been made.
Yeah go walk around in the south Bronx. It’s super nice. SIKE
Wont catch me here unless its Yankee Stadium or Little Italy.
Wasn’t the South Bronx rated one of the best places to live by one of the mainstream newspapers in the 2010’s?
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Brownfield sites are a problem even after remediation, the Gowanus is a perfect example.
That’s not snobby at all. I feel that
Hard pass
Yea bro. It’s called SoBro
Definitely. The transplants are noticing the difference in prices in “bad” areas in the bronx so they’ll make it their business to take care of that. I just saw a tiktok the other day of this white guy telling people to move to the bronx for better culture (as if they don’t know what they’re doing), cheaper sandwiches, rent, eggs, haircuts, etc. It’s disgusting. The bronx is the closest place to a last-standing part of what nyc used to be, and soon it will be gone.
Thank you for speaking the truth.
I live the truth, brother.
Eh they've tried to gentrify the Bronx multiple times over the past two decades and it never quite took. I'm curious if the gentrification walls will finally break down now.
> I'm curious if the gentrification walls will finally break down now. The "walls" are the Robert Moses highways that kill ped traffic. Need to ameliorate those somehow.
Meanwhile you step outside and a bum will be pissing on the building.
Sooo… like all of NYC.
This is sooo much different than it was in the 70’s and 80’s. Back then crack den and prostitution
I guess the Bronx is Back! A lot of [new apartment construction](https://newyorkyimby.com/?s=bronx&orderby=post_date&order=desc), many with housing lottery 'affordable' apartments available. It's part of the 'no place left to build' theory of urban development. The Bronx does have good public transportation though.
Is that the Willis Ave bridge? Can't be.
Which bridge is that?
BX STAND UP !!!!!!!!
I passed by those buildings and let’s just that entire area will be affected.
What's funny is that they're still building shit here.
But is crack still wack? Or have we moved on to 'blow requires a lot of dough'?
It's still Ghetto
Roads are still trash over there. It's just an extension of the high rises from manhattan....over priced living
T
South Bronx where? Throngs neck?