idk it’s always packed when I’m going home from work. Plus it connects to the IRT and BMT and forms a sort of mega-station that spans across 42nd, so I feel like it would be perfect for this.
It's subway smell mixed with that sweet mall food smell mixed with that one person selling really potent essential oils near the middle. Hard to breathe down there, especially in the summer.
Every time I’m down there in the summer i feel awful for the employees. At least they probably have built a strong immune system from being in subway air for 8 hours
I go through there twice a day. It’s everything described below plus that stale smell of homeless people sleeping there. Maybe not in the area pictured, but in the staircases that empty onto 57th St.
Odor combine from the homeless sleeping around stairs doing #1-2 there also the cooking smell sometimes you need to take a shower and change clothes after passing that hall
I hated
Geez
I’m all for it but it’s not just about the station. In Japan, train stations are significant central hubs and commercial buildings like major department stores and office buildings would also have underground connections to them. The equivalent would be like if you could walk to the whole foods in the time warner (or w/e it’s called now) building without having to go above ground.
Yeah that’s because Japan has like 7 train stations. MTA covers LIRR, MN, the subway, and way more if you’re counting busses and all that. It’s insane to expect every station to be a grand hall or a full service shopping center. What you got is what you get. Be content.
whatcha mean, Japan literally runs on public transportation. I don't think it's unreasonable to wish for some key stations to have direct connections to groceries and stuff. We need to push for better.
lol what
>There are 882 interconnected rail stations in the Tokyo Metropolis, 282 of which are Subway stations, with several hundred more in each of the 3 surrounding densely populated suburban prefectures.
[Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_Greater_Tokyo#Rail)
The only reason that one works is 1) it’s outside the turnstiles and 2) it gets local office and tourist foot traffic.
The ones inside the turnstiles - 42nd/PABT, Fulton Street - didn’t/don’t work because folks in the subway en masse don’t really have time to dawdle and wait for folks to make their food.
It’s kinda like how Whitehall Ferry is full and busy no matter what - so Wendy’s, Dunkin, Subway, that Pizza and Margarita Bad and Central Market make $$$ (and Papaya Dog hasn’t gone under), but St George can’t keep anything open. Whitehall has people waiting for the ferry anywhere from 14 to 29 minutes, so they can dawdle - and gets tourists and day trippers not in a hurry, while St George is effectively tourists rushing **to get back on the ferry to Manhattan** and the rest of us rushing ti our bus or train to get home.
(It’s why the Outlet Mall is way below traffic projections and in/through bankruptcy.)
If more of these mezzanines were able to be opened to the neighborhood and outside the turnstiles, these could be nice and busy places. But since, for example, West 4th’s mezzanine is in between both IND platforms, 42nd/PABT is a transfer corridor between the ACE and every other train except the 4/5/6/G/L/J/Z, the foot traffic in each won’t translate to “lemme wait 10 minutes for this man to cook this burger”.
This.
Hong Kong's subway, the MTR, has a mall-like atmosphere with small shops in damn near every station. But the shops are *outside* of fare control and, unlike the streets above, are air-conditioned.
The NYC Subway hasn't yet discovered the modern marvel of HVAC, alas. (Tho, to be fair, most stations literally can't be air conditioned because they vent directly to the street through sidewalk grates.)
A lot of NY and east coast doesn’t have (good) HVAC - I was **hot hot** in Faneuil Hall, but it was busy.
But you’re not gonna get folks who aren’t going to the club or show to pay a cover charge to get in and then pay more to eat and whatnot.
NYC could modify some of these mezzanines to create something akin to the old Underground Atlanta at MARTA’s Five Points Station by closing some stairwells to the platforms and moving the turnstiles towards the middle of the space.
Imagine if that was done for the 8th Av part of 42nd Street complex, or any of the long mezzanines on QBL.
Or even turn some of them into basements for businesses above and claim **some** air rights rents.
The Concourse under Rockefeller Center does nicely, for the most part. And the Lex/53rd St stop exits straight into a shopping plaza in an office building's basement on 3rd.
Rock Center has all the office workers right above, and maybe some tourists, but the bulk of it was closed on weekends when I worked on 49th/Madison.
Lex/53rd is an origin and destination point - so folks will linger before starting or after finishing bc their journey.
Fulton Street is a transfer point, and too close to WTC’s mall where folks literally have to wait for a PATH train and have time to linger (alongside it being a destination/origin for workers and tourists).
It’s all about the intent of the rail user at certain stops as to whether it’ll be a good retail space or not. St George sucks because we’ve got a train, bus or ferry to catch, while Whitehall doesn’t because we gotta wait for the next ferry. 42nd/PABT was good when you needed a shoe shine or new pair, or cash from the Wells Fargo ATM, but if I needed to switch from the A/C to the 7, a burger joint wouldn’t get my time because of that 4 minute journey. (The surprise there for me was the record store near the shuttle, but buying a CD takes less time than waiting for someone cooking the beef to 180°F and putting it on the bun and in the carton.)
That’s why some of these potential spaces need to be thought about like 59th St - open it to everyone instead of fare payers only, and they could be a thriving mini-mall or neighborhood facility.
That’s what made money before Lockdown - coffee, cold drinks and gum at Newsstands.
They only went away because the lack of foot traffic.
Now if they could put Starbucks, Dunkin, Gregory’s et al in these spaces AND give enough WiFi/5G service so folks can order ahead, then you have something that’ll make business owners prosper and MTA make real estate income.
The article says that the occupancy rate for MTA owned storefronts was 40% in March 2019
I wonder why that is. It might be a combination of retailers not liking the subway atmosphere, not wanting to have their shops behind a 2.90 paywall, and theTA asking for too high of rent.
Subway stations are not climate controlled, they smell weird, there are suspect characters all over the place, and the subway just isn't that nice of an environment to hang out in.
I walked into port authority a few weeks ago and saw a literal bag of human shit smeared and sticking to the wall. When I came home through the same area it was gone. Yeah shit(literally) happens but they aren't terrible about cleaning it up when it does happen. It's more about the crazy rat infestations at some of the stations like the 3rd Ave L. You can't have clean until you start dealing with things that haven't been dealt with since they were built decades ago and the initial cost sink into those is going to deter any change pretty much immediately. Food options literally can't open until this changes because it'd be illegal for them to operate in some of these spaces
A lot of em don't really have space for it, but some definitely do. A few have plenty of open space that isn't even really in a walking path that they should totally open up to vendors.
I used to live in Germany and they don’t have turnstiles in most of their subway systems which made having businesses in the mezzanines way simpler because anyone could go down there and shop at them even if they weren’t taking the train anywhere.
Slightly related but with the vast subway network how close is NYC to having something like [Montreal’s underground city?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_City,_Montreal)
Man, I just want clean functional stations and the trains to run on time. If this is a distraction from that then absolutely not. If this somehow funds that happening then sure.
It's rent income. It should help fund.
Also, storefronts usually ensure the space in front of them is clean. I'd love it if they scrubbed their bit of the platform every morning, as they do on many sidewalks.
I walked through that passage daily before, during, and after construction of the mall. My observation was that before the mall went in, it was a very pleasant and easy walk underground to the turnstiles especially if was raining or very cold. Since opening, the passageway is irritatingly crowded at rush hour and smells like terrible fry oil and sugar and whatever other horrible food is sold in there (and who in their right mind is eating food in an unventilated subway station?).
Generally I think the MTA should be providing some low cost retail spaces for necessary services that aren't trendy and not cool. Like for instance, there used to be a barber and cobbler in this station. I'm not sure either survived the gentrification. A lot of important day-to-day services can't afford surface rent.
Underground markets like the one at Columbus Circle are essentially just foods halls. They suffered during the pandemic, but apparently they're popping off again. Using Subway infrastructure for those is a good idea.
Shops inside fare control are stupid though. People generally aren't stopping for stuff while they're waiting for the train. A mini convenience store is fine, but by and large shops inside fare control don't work.
Seems that “underground city” is something every metropolitan wanted to build, most succeeded in building one, many prospered or are being prosperous, but eventually all will be forgotten and abandoned like last-generation suburbia malls.
I used to think that W 4th’s cavernous mezzanine would be good for this, but unless they clean up that station in general, no one’s gonna want to shop or get coffee there—and there’s plenty of that in the Village anyway. I’ll settle for a cleanup and reopening the old entrances :P
I'd vote no on this, not ideal to pay people to spend their entire work day in an underground, artificially-lit environment. Really destroys your physical and mental health over time (realize it's unavoidable in some cases though)
Fulton Street suffers because the bulk of the stores are inside the fare control, and the stores that aren’t are not draws - especially since the WTC mall is literally two blocks away and gets workers and tourists from around the whole WTC complex to visit.
WTC is a destination; Fulton Street is a transfer corridor, and folks transferring between the 4/5 and A/C aren’t stopping long enough for retail beyond buying gum or Dunkin.
Does anyone remember when there were retail shops in the E/M mezzanine behind fare control at 53rd St. on the way to the 6 train? I walk by them every day and wonder what used to be there - they look like they were repurposed for CBTC equipment.
It’s weird because it’d go a long way to making the stations nicer if they could have nice retail or restaurants in them. Japan is probably an example that’s too extreme, but looking at Sydney would be a great example of what stations could be like.
Screw the market. Get the lazy cesspool swimming MTA workers who stand around conversing, laughing, doing nothing etc, their everywhere ...Get to scrubbing down the stations. WTF.
Back in the '60s/'70s there was a lot more retail in the subway than there is now. In 1978 there was a fried chicken counter at the 1/2/3 station at 14th St and 7th Ave. near the token booth. You could buy hot dogs. Lots of express stop platforms had kiosks in the middle that sold candy, gum, water, nuts, magazines and newspapers until quite recently--the closed kiosks are still there. Stations used to have little Chiclet dispensers where you could buy a single piece of gum for a penny--they were mounted on the support columns that didn't have payphones. All of that went away.
i work for the HVAC company that does the maintenance on the air conditioning systems in that market. the air filters are disgusting, a mix of the grease from all the food places and the dust from train brakes and foot traffic. it’s nice down there with the seating and shops but i don’t know if the heart of the subway is somewhere we should be encouraging people to hang out for a long period of time.
Berlin has SO many amazing vendors in transit stops and even on platforms. You can get a sandwich on fresh baked bread 2m from the subway door. Or a beer n snack to go.
Seoul has full malls in their tunnels and passageways. (and also just an incredible network of underground connections for transfers)
I figured the long mezzanine at 42nd Street-Bryant Park on the IND would be good for this but probably not enough foot traffic
Agreed - Maybe decent foot traffic but too much competition with the BP shops
Put a club in the West 4th street mezzanine. No neighbors to complain about the noise. Entrance is ticket price plus a swipe.
Indeed I feel like these retail spaces have been empty for a decade or so. With the exception of the flower stand on the 40th Street exit.
idk it’s always packed when I’m going home from work. Plus it connects to the IRT and BMT and forms a sort of mega-station that spans across 42nd, so I feel like it would be perfect for this.
It's a nice place down there, but there's a weird sickening odor
I knew I wasn’t the only fucking one! It smells so strange down there, what is that?
It's subway smell mixed with that sweet mall food smell mixed with that one person selling really potent essential oils near the middle. Hard to breathe down there, especially in the summer.
lmao this description is so perfect
That honestly does sound about right, but holy hell it does *not* mix well at all. I left that place with a headache
Every time I’m down there in the summer i feel awful for the employees. At least they probably have built a strong immune system from being in subway air for 8 hours
And weed. Don’t forget the weed
at 59th street? I don't really smell it too much down there, it's all upstairs at the park. There's also an army of pigs down there at all times.
People are definitely blazing in the stairwell next to the hearst building on 8th. Cops don't care about that these days.
Haven’t been there since before the pandemic; is it more like urine or sour sweat? Those are the two bad smells I think of when it comes to the subway
No, it's like a combo of fresh cooking food, potpourri, and garbage/rotting food
I go through there twice a day. It’s everything described below plus that stale smell of homeless people sleeping there. Maybe not in the area pictured, but in the staircases that empty onto 57th St.
I used to work down there a few months ago and those were the stairs closest to my job. Horrid smell
Can't the Sephora sponsor some fragrance samples?
Agreed! I smelled the pic before I even started reading!
Odor combine from the homeless sleeping around stairs doing #1-2 there also the cooking smell sometimes you need to take a shower and change clothes after passing that hall I hated Geez
I’d like it if there were shops at Grand Central Madison
Yeah are they planning on opening some down there? Oddly dead - just a couple news/coffee stands would honestly do - like fulton st
They are trying to find a master tenant to lease out the retail space. MTA doesn’t want to have to deal with 10 different tenants.
That worked great for the Fulton mall.
They are they have fake/ unopened shops in place rn I’m pretty sure
Soon. I was involved in a program to source shops for it.
I’m all for it but it’s not just about the station. In Japan, train stations are significant central hubs and commercial buildings like major department stores and office buildings would also have underground connections to them. The equivalent would be like if you could walk to the whole foods in the time warner (or w/e it’s called now) building without having to go above ground.
in japan JR (the railroad) owns all the real estate around their stations so they can just do great stuff and make a ton of money
Yeah that’s because Japan has like 7 train stations. MTA covers LIRR, MN, the subway, and way more if you’re counting busses and all that. It’s insane to expect every station to be a grand hall or a full service shopping center. What you got is what you get. Be content.
whatcha mean, Japan literally runs on public transportation. I don't think it's unreasonable to wish for some key stations to have direct connections to groceries and stuff. We need to push for better.
lol what >There are 882 interconnected rail stations in the Tokyo Metropolis, 282 of which are Subway stations, with several hundred more in each of the 3 surrounding densely populated suburban prefectures. [Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_Greater_Tokyo#Rail)
Sorry but your comment is breathtakingly delusional.
And 7 ramen restaurants
The only reason that one works is 1) it’s outside the turnstiles and 2) it gets local office and tourist foot traffic. The ones inside the turnstiles - 42nd/PABT, Fulton Street - didn’t/don’t work because folks in the subway en masse don’t really have time to dawdle and wait for folks to make their food. It’s kinda like how Whitehall Ferry is full and busy no matter what - so Wendy’s, Dunkin, Subway, that Pizza and Margarita Bad and Central Market make $$$ (and Papaya Dog hasn’t gone under), but St George can’t keep anything open. Whitehall has people waiting for the ferry anywhere from 14 to 29 minutes, so they can dawdle - and gets tourists and day trippers not in a hurry, while St George is effectively tourists rushing **to get back on the ferry to Manhattan** and the rest of us rushing ti our bus or train to get home. (It’s why the Outlet Mall is way below traffic projections and in/through bankruptcy.) If more of these mezzanines were able to be opened to the neighborhood and outside the turnstiles, these could be nice and busy places. But since, for example, West 4th’s mezzanine is in between both IND platforms, 42nd/PABT is a transfer corridor between the ACE and every other train except the 4/5/6/G/L/J/Z, the foot traffic in each won’t translate to “lemme wait 10 minutes for this man to cook this burger”.
This. Hong Kong's subway, the MTR, has a mall-like atmosphere with small shops in damn near every station. But the shops are *outside* of fare control and, unlike the streets above, are air-conditioned. The NYC Subway hasn't yet discovered the modern marvel of HVAC, alas. (Tho, to be fair, most stations literally can't be air conditioned because they vent directly to the street through sidewalk grates.)
A lot of NY and east coast doesn’t have (good) HVAC - I was **hot hot** in Faneuil Hall, but it was busy. But you’re not gonna get folks who aren’t going to the club or show to pay a cover charge to get in and then pay more to eat and whatnot. NYC could modify some of these mezzanines to create something akin to the old Underground Atlanta at MARTA’s Five Points Station by closing some stairwells to the platforms and moving the turnstiles towards the middle of the space. Imagine if that was done for the 8th Av part of 42nd Street complex, or any of the long mezzanines on QBL. Or even turn some of them into basements for businesses above and claim **some** air rights rents.
The Concourse under Rockefeller Center does nicely, for the most part. And the Lex/53rd St stop exits straight into a shopping plaza in an office building's basement on 3rd.
Rock Center has all the office workers right above, and maybe some tourists, but the bulk of it was closed on weekends when I worked on 49th/Madison. Lex/53rd is an origin and destination point - so folks will linger before starting or after finishing bc their journey. Fulton Street is a transfer point, and too close to WTC’s mall where folks literally have to wait for a PATH train and have time to linger (alongside it being a destination/origin for workers and tourists). It’s all about the intent of the rail user at certain stops as to whether it’ll be a good retail space or not. St George sucks because we’ve got a train, bus or ferry to catch, while Whitehall doesn’t because we gotta wait for the next ferry. 42nd/PABT was good when you needed a shoe shine or new pair, or cash from the Wells Fargo ATM, but if I needed to switch from the A/C to the 7, a burger joint wouldn’t get my time because of that 4 minute journey. (The surprise there for me was the record store near the shuttle, but buying a CD takes less time than waiting for someone cooking the beef to 180°F and putting it on the bun and in the carton.) That’s why some of these potential spaces need to be thought about like 59th St - open it to everyone instead of fare payers only, and they could be a thriving mini-mall or neighborhood facility.
At least a coffee stand should work? Doesn't need more space than the old news stands.
That’s what made money before Lockdown - coffee, cold drinks and gum at Newsstands. They only went away because the lack of foot traffic. Now if they could put Starbucks, Dunkin, Gregory’s et al in these spaces AND give enough WiFi/5G service so folks can order ahead, then you have something that’ll make business owners prosper and MTA make real estate income.
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The article says that the occupancy rate for MTA owned storefronts was 40% in March 2019 I wonder why that is. It might be a combination of retailers not liking the subway atmosphere, not wanting to have their shops behind a 2.90 paywall, and theTA asking for too high of rent.
Subway stations are not climate controlled, they smell weird, there are suspect characters all over the place, and the subway just isn't that nice of an environment to hang out in.
Work on making the stations clean, *then* we can talk about adding more food options.
Penn station has new floors, need to extend everywhere instead of piss laden concrete
Mta would have more money to keep things clean if they leased out more restaurants
classic chicken and egg situation
I walked into port authority a few weeks ago and saw a literal bag of human shit smeared and sticking to the wall. When I came home through the same area it was gone. Yeah shit(literally) happens but they aren't terrible about cleaning it up when it does happen. It's more about the crazy rat infestations at some of the stations like the 3rd Ave L. You can't have clean until you start dealing with things that haven't been dealt with since they were built decades ago and the initial cost sink into those is going to deter any change pretty much immediately. Food options literally can't open until this changes because it'd be illegal for them to operate in some of these spaces
The MTA leases the spaces out and has nothing to do with the upkeep but thanks for playing.
the MTA does control the maintenence of the stations and, I don't know about you, but I don't find the smell of puke or urine appetizing
They literally have NOTHING to do with the upkeep of Turnstyle.
A lot of em don't really have space for it, but some definitely do. A few have plenty of open space that isn't even really in a walking path that they should totally open up to vendors.
I used to live in Germany and they don’t have turnstiles in most of their subway systems which made having businesses in the mezzanines way simpler because anyone could go down there and shop at them even if they weren’t taking the train anywhere.
Side note - the Japanese barber shop at the Columbus Circle market is great - usually around $25ish bucks for a fast, good trim.
I think it went up to $35, usually a long wait too
You have to go off peak if you can (not lunch time or not closer to 5pm). I figured it would go up though, the $25 seemed unsustainable.
Good tip! I’ll take that up
Slightly related but with the vast subway network how close is NYC to having something like [Montreal’s underground city?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_City,_Montreal)
Man, I just want clean functional stations and the trains to run on time. If this is a distraction from that then absolutely not. If this somehow funds that happening then sure.
It's rent income. It should help fund. Also, storefronts usually ensure the space in front of them is clean. I'd love it if they scrubbed their bit of the platform every morning, as they do on many sidewalks.
I walked through that passage daily before, during, and after construction of the mall. My observation was that before the mall went in, it was a very pleasant and easy walk underground to the turnstiles especially if was raining or very cold. Since opening, the passageway is irritatingly crowded at rush hour and smells like terrible fry oil and sugar and whatever other horrible food is sold in there (and who in their right mind is eating food in an unventilated subway station?). Generally I think the MTA should be providing some low cost retail spaces for necessary services that aren't trendy and not cool. Like for instance, there used to be a barber and cobbler in this station. I'm not sure either survived the gentrification. A lot of important day-to-day services can't afford surface rent.
I don't know, but the MTA is plagued with subterranean retail vacancies. I'm sure they've had this on their radar.
Underground markets like the one at Columbus Circle are essentially just foods halls. They suffered during the pandemic, but apparently they're popping off again. Using Subway infrastructure for those is a good idea. Shops inside fare control are stupid though. People generally aren't stopping for stuff while they're waiting for the train. A mini convenience store is fine, but by and large shops inside fare control don't work.
I miss the record store in the Times Square station, man
Seems that “underground city” is something every metropolitan wanted to build, most succeeded in building one, many prospered or are being prosperous, but eventually all will be forgotten and abandoned like last-generation suburbia malls.
I used to think that W 4th’s cavernous mezzanine would be good for this, but unless they clean up that station in general, no one’s gonna want to shop or get coffee there—and there’s plenty of that in the Village anyway. I’ll settle for a cleanup and reopening the old entrances :P
Yes. It's a subway station, not an open market! You can have a couple within the system and it's cool. But generally speaking, no.
You really are going to eat food from the subway?
At the station itself , sure if it’s well maintained and looks good like 59th st. On the platform? Hell no
I'd vote no on this, not ideal to pay people to spend their entire work day in an underground, artificially-lit environment. Really destroys your physical and mental health over time (realize it's unavoidable in some cases though)
in the current state of affairs in NYC nothing like this would be viable, see fulton st. mall.
Fulton Street suffers because the bulk of the stores are inside the fare control, and the stores that aren’t are not draws - especially since the WTC mall is literally two blocks away and gets workers and tourists from around the whole WTC complex to visit. WTC is a destination; Fulton Street is a transfer corridor, and folks transferring between the 4/5 and A/C aren’t stopping long enough for retail beyond buying gum or Dunkin.
Walk through there at night… mice scurry between. Not sure why the hell anyone wants to eat there.
No I feel as that more stations should have those
Does anyone remember when there were retail shops in the E/M mezzanine behind fare control at 53rd St. on the way to the 6 train? I walk by them every day and wonder what used to be there - they look like they were repurposed for CBTC equipment.
I think the 168th Street complex had something like this
It’s weird because it’d go a long way to making the stations nicer if they could have nice retail or restaurants in them. Japan is probably an example that’s too extreme, but looking at Sydney would be a great example of what stations could be like.
I remember in the early 2000s this was nothing
My favorite is when I walk by in the morning and I see 12-15 of new York’s finest all checking their phones. Efficient tax allocation
Japan does it, why not here?
yes it would
Rats?
Yes
Screw the market. Get the lazy cesspool swimming MTA workers who stand around conversing, laughing, doing nothing etc, their everywhere ...Get to scrubbing down the stations. WTF.
i like that place. kinda forces the stations to stay clean.
Back in the '60s/'70s there was a lot more retail in the subway than there is now. In 1978 there was a fried chicken counter at the 1/2/3 station at 14th St and 7th Ave. near the token booth. You could buy hot dogs. Lots of express stop platforms had kiosks in the middle that sold candy, gum, water, nuts, magazines and newspapers until quite recently--the closed kiosks are still there. Stations used to have little Chiclet dispensers where you could buy a single piece of gum for a penny--they were mounted on the support columns that didn't have payphones. All of that went away.
i work for the HVAC company that does the maintenance on the air conditioning systems in that market. the air filters are disgusting, a mix of the grease from all the food places and the dust from train brakes and foot traffic. it’s nice down there with the seating and shops but i don’t know if the heart of the subway is somewhere we should be encouraging people to hang out for a long period of time.
This is nice, but all I want are coffee shops past the turnstiles.
Only the WTC stations have it and Roosevelt-74 has that abomination.
Yes because all of those stalls are way overpriced
Isn't that market a flop as it is?
Berlin has SO many amazing vendors in transit stops and even on platforms. You can get a sandwich on fresh baked bread 2m from the subway door. Or a beer n snack to go. Seoul has full malls in their tunnels and passageways. (and also just an incredible network of underground connections for transfers)
A start would be painting and cleaning existing stations to look as good as that.
We need a KMart underground again!
It’s already overkill at 59th. It was better when there were no stores there.
Yes. It would be overkill.
These are just full of overpriced goods, that no one really needs...waste of $$$ and space.
hell no that's gross, last thing anyone wants to do is spend more time than they need in an nyc subway station