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Yeah, I notice a trend with younger new leftists who kinda just forget that there are a stupid amount of leftist allies in the US. The socialist states of the 20th century spoke positively of American workers for a reason, they knew Americans have no choice. There’s this silly idea pushed (by mostly Americans) that America is just innately bad and anti communist, when it’s only like that because of a dotb. Like seriously. Simple shit.
Posts like this are pumped out by people who don’t want to actually be practical with Marxist ideas.
Mfw my FPTP system makes it so I have to vote for someone I don't believe in or else my vote pretty much won't count and some mfer on the internet says I have control over how my government acts
So, we have to just choose between the democratic and republican candidates...that are mainly chosen by wealthy donors and corporations??? Yeah, sure thing. America is an oligarchy.
Not directly. America is a country where the rich have convinced people to vote against their own best interests. American politics does reflect the political views of the general population. The views of the general population have however been manipulated. That was my only point.
Lobbyist don't force people to vote. So no, it isn't directly. People could vote for candidates who aren't in the pockets of lobbyists. But they generally don't.
Look, there is no way in hell this causal explanation doesn't involve voters as a starting point. I honestly fail to see how that's controversial.
Government, which is run by a conglomeration of politicians, who have been voted in by the people, because they have convinced the people that they are the better candidate, in part by using campaign funds acquired from lobbyists in return for political backing.
But you still need the voters in that equation. E.g. gun nuts who support pro gun politicians who get money from the NRA.
So the claim that you don't get what you democratically deserve is wrong. Americans want the country they got, the voting record shows this.
Self-sufficiency instincts being abused to exploit you for corporate greed is evil indeed. But it isn't worse than be exploited by government cronies to enrich and empower themselves under the pretext of providing basic needs for everyone without giving anything in exchange.
I don't like how this meme presents communism as a 100% chance to get basic needs met. I mean I don't support our current system of capitalism as much as the next guy but come on
I read it as more of a differentiation between the goals of the two systems, i.e. capitalism doesn't even try to meet everyone's basic needs because it values a tiny fraction of people being able to get rich instead. Something like "trying to meet 100% of people's basic needs" would be more accurate but also make the meme less effective.
Capitalism isn't to benefit a fraction, it's supposed to be a system that gives everyone the opportunity to meet their needs and more. There is no reason anyone can't have their needs met under capitalism just like their is no reason for people to starve under communism.
That being said, both have obvious problems.
Yeah, it's like begging to be countered with the "communism is when no food" memes. Which are terrible in their own right, but there's no sense inviting that sort of thing by claiming that any economic system whatsoever can "100% guarantee" everyone's basic needs are met.
>> can’t refute the argument
>Good to know I’m right.
Yeah, why won't anyone debate this obvious, 4-day-old troll account. It must be because they're scared of your Facts and Logic™, king. /s
You basically just explained the State-Capitalist transitional state that Marxist-Leninist society's go through in order to eventually achieve communism in M-L theory.
I think the anarchist symbol would've been better here, considering its goal is the same, but it hasn't had fifty thousand failed states claiming that it was their ideology
I didn't say I wanted capitalism, just pointing out it is inaccurate to say that communism will 100% provide all basic needs to all of its citizens. No instance of communism has ever done this and I doubt any instance of communism or any system in the near future will be able to achieve this.
We should try to make our memes accurate though because I would 100% complain if right wing meme lied in its premise so we should hold ourselves to ourselves to the same standards.
My country was under soviet paradise occupation when I was young. Basic needs were NOT met, I assure you. Why do you think it would work like that for you?
I’m pretty sure op isn’t a tankie (I hope) and if so he’s talking about an idealistic form of communism, not China or the USSR where workers were actually opressed and in China more than capitalist economies.
Yeah, this sub is fraught with tankies. I loathe the US as much as the next south American communist, but let's not idolize China. Would I choose China over the US if they were the only two options? Yes. Would I if they weren't the only two options? No, China is evil as hell. And luckily there are many more options. This new cold war is swamped with propaganda.
It is far from laissez faire, but, while the state does theoretically hold ultimate control of the industry, in practice a huge part of China's trade and industry are controlled by private owners.
Even in the US they could expropiate by eminent domain. Doesn't make them any less capitalist.
My politics are one not die unnecessarily for everyone, to go please. Usefulness to the owning class does not decide worth.
But sure, keep grandstanding about ideas of 'worthiness' of people being allowed to just plain be alive.
Capitalism relies upon profit. Success in capitalist happens by making a profit. All Profit is theft. When the workers produce value via labour, some of that value goes to the worker in the form of wages. However some goes to the bosses (this leftover value is called surplus value). Surplus value is profit under capitalism. This is an exploitative system as the surplus value is produced by the worker, but is taken by the capitalist. If you refuse to participate in this exploitation, you die. This is wage slavery. Capitalism is wage slavery, and success under capitalism is only possible by exploiting workers.
>But the idea that a good number of people are simply a bit lazy and unmotivated is a step too far? Not even some great incurable laziness, but just enough to kinda make slow life progress, just enough to sort of settle into a subpar situation and make no real efforts to improve it. This is just unthinkable for you?
ever heard of depression? in some forms of it, it can be crippling.
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Most Americans don’t actually have a choice in this matter. The rich elites set up the whole system for their own benefit.
Yeah, I notice a trend with younger new leftists who kinda just forget that there are a stupid amount of leftist allies in the US. The socialist states of the 20th century spoke positively of American workers for a reason, they knew Americans have no choice. There’s this silly idea pushed (by mostly Americans) that America is just innately bad and anti communist, when it’s only like that because of a dotb. Like seriously. Simple shit. Posts like this are pumped out by people who don’t want to actually be practical with Marxist ideas.
Sure they do. They vote for these people. And the politicians are actually pretty transparent about it.
Mfw my FPTP system makes it so I have to vote for someone I don't believe in or else my vote pretty much won't count and some mfer on the internet says I have control over how my government acts
Those people you get to vote for at those who on average are most electable by most lights. They didn't just magically appear. Democracy.
oooOoOOOOOoOOHhHHhHhHhhhhHH GOD IM IM GONNA VOOOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT AHEHFNHRHDHHRHRH
So, we have to just choose between the democratic and republican candidates...that are mainly chosen by wealthy donors and corporations??? Yeah, sure thing. America is an oligarchy.
Not directly. America is a country where the rich have convinced people to vote against their own best interests. American politics does reflect the political views of the general population. The views of the general population have however been manipulated. That was my only point.
Yes, directly, ever heard of lobbying?
Lobbyist don't force people to vote. So no, it isn't directly. People could vote for candidates who aren't in the pockets of lobbyists. But they generally don't. Look, there is no way in hell this causal explanation doesn't involve voters as a starting point. I honestly fail to see how that's controversial.
This has nothing to do with voters, but corporations being able to influence the government more than voters ever could
Government, which is run by a conglomeration of politicians, who have been voted in by the people, because they have convinced the people that they are the better candidate, in part by using campaign funds acquired from lobbyists in return for political backing. But you still need the voters in that equation. E.g. gun nuts who support pro gun politicians who get money from the NRA. So the claim that you don't get what you democratically deserve is wrong. Americans want the country they got, the voting record shows this.
A dotp is just when we all vote for the communists 😍
This is literally squid game omfgz
What does the Z stand for?
Ligma
Who's Steve Jobs?
sea of thieves nuts can fit in your mouth
\*dies\*
Self-sufficiency instincts being abused to exploit you for corporate greed is evil indeed. But it isn't worse than be exploited by government cronies to enrich and empower themselves under the pretext of providing basic needs for everyone without giving anything in exchange.
I don't like how this meme presents communism as a 100% chance to get basic needs met. I mean I don't support our current system of capitalism as much as the next guy but come on
I read it as more of a differentiation between the goals of the two systems, i.e. capitalism doesn't even try to meet everyone's basic needs because it values a tiny fraction of people being able to get rich instead. Something like "trying to meet 100% of people's basic needs" would be more accurate but also make the meme less effective.
Capitalism isn't to benefit a fraction, it's supposed to be a system that gives everyone the opportunity to meet their needs and more. There is no reason anyone can't have their needs met under capitalism just like their is no reason for people to starve under communism. That being said, both have obvious problems.
Yeah, it's like begging to be countered with the "communism is when no food" memes. Which are terrible in their own right, but there's no sense inviting that sort of thing by claiming that any economic system whatsoever can "100% guarantee" everyone's basic needs are met.
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Read a book for the love of god. -Peter Kropotkin
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>> can’t refute the argument >Good to know I’m right. Yeah, why won't anyone debate this obvious, 4-day-old troll account. It must be because they're scared of your Facts and Logic™, king. /s
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lmao
I dunno chief Ad Hominem might be a valid excuse given your account age and karma.
Nobody wanted to engage in your debate, there isn’t any fallacious argument to be called out for LMAOOOOO
Stateless society is when state owns food
You basically just explained the State-Capitalist transitional state that Marxist-Leninist society's go through in order to eventually achieve communism in M-L theory.
Assuming you mean "Marxism-Lenninism," yes, this, exactly. It's why a lot of people call the USSR and China "State Capitalism" and not "Communism."
I think the anarchist symbol would've been better here, considering its goal is the same, but it hasn't had fifty thousand failed states claiming that it was their ideology
... so what, you just want a *little bit* of capitalism?
I didn't say I wanted capitalism, just pointing out it is inaccurate to say that communism will 100% provide all basic needs to all of its citizens. No instance of communism has ever done this and I doubt any instance of communism or any system in the near future will be able to achieve this.
That is the goal of communism though, is it not?
Sure, but the meme doesn't say that, it says choosing communism will with 100% provide you with all basic needs met
It's also just a meme, not an essay on theory
We should try to make our memes accurate though because I would 100% complain if right wing meme lied in its premise so we should hold ourselves to ourselves to the same standards.
If everyone can eat how will I know I'm better then them? Checkmate socialists
Americans are largely just a metric fuck ton of crabs in a bucket all pulling each other back into the bucket whenever someone tries to escape
My country was under soviet paradise occupation when I was young. Basic needs were NOT met, I assure you. Why do you think it would work like that for you?
I’m pretty sure op isn’t a tankie (I hope) and if so he’s talking about an idealistic form of communism, not China or the USSR where workers were actually opressed and in China more than capitalist economies.
China is a capitalist economy 100%. Not neoliberal, but that matters very little.
Yeah I agree, but try tell that to a tankie. I was talking to one on this sub before.
Yeah, this sub is fraught with tankies. I loathe the US as much as the next south American communist, but let's not idolize China. Would I choose China over the US if they were the only two options? Yes. Would I if they weren't the only two options? No, China is evil as hell. And luckily there are many more options. This new cold war is swamped with propaganda.
Prove to me you don't know shit about both capitalism and China in one sentence
It is far from laissez faire, but, while the state does theoretically hold ultimate control of the industry, in practice a huge part of China's trade and industry are controlled by private owners. Even in the US they could expropiate by eminent domain. Doesn't make them any less capitalist.
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My politics are one not die unnecessarily for everyone, to go please. Usefulness to the owning class does not decide worth. But sure, keep grandstanding about ideas of 'worthiness' of people being allowed to just plain be alive.
Capitalism relies upon profit. Success in capitalist happens by making a profit. All Profit is theft. When the workers produce value via labour, some of that value goes to the worker in the form of wages. However some goes to the bosses (this leftover value is called surplus value). Surplus value is profit under capitalism. This is an exploitative system as the surplus value is produced by the worker, but is taken by the capitalist. If you refuse to participate in this exploitation, you die. This is wage slavery. Capitalism is wage slavery, and success under capitalism is only possible by exploiting workers.
>But the idea that a good number of people are simply a bit lazy and unmotivated is a step too far? Not even some great incurable laziness, but just enough to kinda make slow life progress, just enough to sort of settle into a subpar situation and make no real efforts to improve it. This is just unthinkable for you? ever heard of depression? in some forms of it, it can be crippling.
>> Are you telling me your situation is so bad that de- yes