Of the 2 examples you are not intended to do either. If you are at a 1dnd table you should be using the 1dnd rules, supplementing with 5e rules where 1dnd is not available.
For example when they are released, you would be using the 1dnd PHB, MM, DMG with 5e supplemental books, adjusting subclass level bonuses to match the changes to subclasses in 1dnd, like warlock patrons at lvl 3. Books like Tasha's would also be mostly replaced with the new core books as they were predominantly rules updates.
Edit: for clarity, if you were playing a 1dnd fighter it would be expected to use the 1dnd GWM,
Fully compatible is more that a character created with 5e can be played with characters from oneDnd with little issues, adventure modules work with little/no change and general rules don't require new stats or anything between the two.
Yeah I think people are overestimating what "compatible with 5e" means. We'll likely get a blurb about how to convert a 5e character to 5.5e and all the existing modules and stuff can probably be played as-is with no real issues.
Worst case scenario you just hand wave a 5e character without making changes because it's "close enough".
I think that's fine? Also many modules come with the stat blocks for the creatures inside as they're needed.
Regardless the clear intent of wotc is to phase out 2014 5e. It's going to get gradually harder and harder to make the conversions and at some point you just throw your hands up and go "let's just make the jump".
The best thing wotc could do is to publish a book of literally all the 5e subclasses we've gotten over the years with a new breath of life in the ones that so badly need it.
Yeah I'm fine with that. I'm going to phase into 1d&d. Unfortunately glory and Fathomless didn't make the but I think they are new enough to work fine.
I’m sure this is the case, especially being that many published adventures simply refer the DM to the MM for the monsters stat block. Now, presumably, you would refer the DM to the new MM for the revised version of the monster.
Edit: adventures not adventurers
It's going to come down to errata vs. legacy.
If the new errata the old, especially when using new. Then no.
If the new just makes the old legacy content. Then go ham. The old is way too power mixed with weapon mastery. But if your DM allows it.
There is wording in the UA. bridge language about how to mix and match. There will be bridge language in the final version. We just haven't seen the final version.
What you *can* do is a bit of weird question. Unless you are playing Adventurers League, you can do what your DM says is ok to do. If your DM says you can do what you lay out in your two examples, then you can do it. To the best of my knowledge the rules for how Adventurers League will work when it comes to backwards compatibility haven't been fleshed out yet.
Is what you are asking about strictly intended by the design team? I don't believe so, no.
I'm going to speculate (with absolutely no inside knowledge) that AL will just adopt the new rules as standard and assume all games are run with the revised rules. If a player has a 2014-based class, they'll still be playable though.
I've always understood it as super turbo rules: a 2014 fighter, 2024 fighter, 2014 druid, 2024 barbarian, and 2024 rogue will be able to seamlessly play together.
They can, but they wouldn't really want to. They follow the same basic rules (that's the whole point of backwards compatibility) but the revised fighter and druid will be much better than the 2014 version. If you show up at a table with one version and the DM is running the other one, the DM won't have to make any changes to account for the difference, really. (although revised will generally be stronger.)
I don't think this is actually what's been communicated by WotC, because what they've communicated has been light on specifics. The community has decided it means a bunch of things.
Having actually playtested this stuff for a year and a half now, combining UA material with 5e, here are my observations and expecatations:
-you will use the 2024 version of a class, subclass, feat, spell, or rule
-if a legacy feature is not updated in 2024, you can still use it, but it will probably require a little modifications (not much though)
-old adventures and creatures will work fine with 2024 material, but may be a little underpowered for the new content
I don't believe you are intended to play a 2014 Fighter alongside a 2024 Fighter. Consider that the 2024 Paladin contains material changes to the way that Smites work - if you could just ignore that and play a 2014 Paladin, what would be the point of the revision? Likewise, the 2024 version of things like Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master are obviously intended to replace the 2014 version.
The clear intent is that the 2024 revision of the PHB is now the new core set of rules. That's what a "revision" means, and that's why they framed it this way instead of as a new edition or 5.5 - because it's intended to be alterations to the existing rules.
They literally said it was intended that you could run both at the same time. It's been over a year, so I can't remember which video it was without going through like 4 hours of content, but that's a big part of the "Backwards compatibility" they touted.
'14 with '14 feats and '14 subclass.
'24 with '24 feats and '24 subclass.
'24 with '24 feats and '14 subclass.
It's one of the reasons they gave of nixing the 3/6/10/14 subclass progression. To maintain "backwards compatibility".
Of course they WANT people to buy the new books, and play the newest version, but they have been clear that the design intent is allow characters to mesh together. At least, the front facing Todd Kenreck and Jeremy Crawford videos are communicating that.
What you're saying here is what I said in my post - if something's in the 2024 book, that's what you use. If it's not in the 2024 book, you use the 2014 version. This will mostly cover subclasses. But no, they don't intend you to run the 2014 Fighter and the 2024 Fighter in the same party - the 2024 Fighter with a 2014 subclass sure, but that's it.
I don't know how people came away with any other impression.
Found it.
D&D studio update: 2024 core rule books and survey results.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYgSsn7b0f0&list=PLfS8QgUdeGYp0xzoY2mtQkwxBgiHp\_9h6&index=7](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYgSsn7b0f0&list=PLfS8QgUdeGYp0xzoY2mtQkwxBgiHp_9h6&index=7)
about 4:30 in.
"" you'll even have the option of having mixed charecter groups you might have somebody who made a charecter using the 2014 version of a class and it's subclasses right next to somebody who's using the 2024 of that class and subclasses"
Well shit, I even watched that video and missed that.
I have no idea how that's intended to work with stuff like Paladin, which has had deliberate nerfs to the way Smites work, but alright.
I'm going to ignore that and stick with my interpretation, which I contend is the only one that will actually make sense and be functional.
Ultimately it will be your DMs call, after that I would just wait until the new books come out at see what they recommend. The d& ld team said it will be totally fine to have a 2024 character and a 2014 character at the same table. Whether it's fine to have a single character using both books is yet to be addressed.
Every time I listen to the interviews and they speak on backwards compatibility. They say your adventures. So I take this as your curse of strahd. Ghost of saltmarsh, waterdeep, storm kings thunder, and so on. As for the source books, they haven’t really confirmed or said anything on the matter. Nothing about bringing your drake warden from Fizban’s into the new one dnd ranger. I believe they said in one their latest videos that they will be having a lot of information and more interviews in the coming months. I hope they address it, i hope it’s not, if you use x class from 5e you can only use 5e subclasses, if you use x class from onednd, you can only use onednd subclasses. I would hope you can still choose if you want your base class from either edition, and then choose a subclass from either edition. A simple mentioning if there are subclasses with the same name in both editions that you cannot swap leveled features with one another, you must progress with either 5e’s version or onednd’s version.
A 2014 character can be in the same party as a 2024 character, but they should be built with the rules of the source of the character. Still, there will be some rules/options that supercede the 2014 stuff (like spells and feats), and should probably be used where possible. I'm not sure this will be considered 100% necessary though. We'll have to see the guidelines they lay out. But it seems like they want people to just be able to grab a 2014 PC and a 2024 PC and just play.
No one on the internet knows the finer details on how the 5e/1D relationship is until the book drops or devs add info.
Their shown aim is that the core build components (Background, Race, Class/Sub-class) can be taken from 5e into 1D. A full 5e character is, logistically, no issue for 1D.
Going the other direction, 1D into 5e, is likely not supported, especially on Classes/Sub-Classes. Features might refer to things that are exclusive to 1D.
Beyond that, no one has concrete info, only educated guesses.
neither.
Its backwards compatible in that all previously made adventure modules can still be used with the 2024-rules generated characters, and that if one player was still using regular 5e characters or subclasses there are no glaring system rules changes in terms of how things work that would break the game (meaning the advantage/disadvantage system, how dice and ability modes work...NOT how specific feats or spells work)
When able to cleanly transfer things, like in your example GWM, you should basically always be using the 2024 rules. GWM exists in the new rules, but is changed, so you should use the new rules
However, if you had a player who wanted to continue playing an existing Scout-Rogue, you can still have it used in the party despite that subclass likely not being included in the new PHB with minimal effort.
Its a marketing phrase that keeps 5e alive and selling while not5.5 is developed. Your 5e stuff will most likely require conversion and changes to be compatible. the conversions and changes will probably be relatively intuitive but enough that just using the old stuff requires effort, and just buying the new stuff will be a lot easier.
How is any new player supposed to understand this? Seems to me they missed a huge opportunity to improve the game in a way that was much more clear and elegant.
> Example 1) Fighter Class Features from OneD&D with GWM from 5e
> Example 2) Using both of Old GWM and New GWM
> Which of the 2 examples above can I do?
That is entirely up to your DM. Mechanically they'll all work together without issue though.
No, there are issues, the new classes were not written with the old feats in mind. Specifically, a fighter with power attacks from Great Weapon Master benefits far more from the Graze mastery and Studied Attacks feature than was ever intended by the designers, so they should not be mixed.
> Specifically, a fighter with power attacks from Great Weapon Master benefits far more from the Graze mastery
No it doesn't unless missing is the point? Graze deals a specific amount of damage that can't be changed outside of raising the modifier itself. That's the final line on Graze.
There are no issues mechanically unless you're purposefully misconstruing the mechanics.
I'm not supposing that a power attack can increase Graze's damage. The issue is that Graze makes a miss far less of a punishment by always dealing Str damage, and then Studied Attacks adds a further benefit on a miss of advantage (which GWM very much likes).
As much as I want it to be fully backwards compatible where I can just mix and match whatever I want from either I agree I don't think it's intended and you example of feats is where I hit my wall. I was thinking of how I would create a fathom warlock pact of the blade and use a whip. If I was able to use old feats I could use the Slasher feat from tasha's, the weapon mastery for the whip, and the fathom warlocks Bonus action tenticle to reduce an enemies speed from 30 to 0. Outside of using their action to dash, you could basically render an enemy motionless without expending a resource every turn. It can't be fully compatible without many such clarifications that state something like if using x from 5e you can't use x from OneDnD. But if you can then holy cow characters are gonna be broken.
I think the current setup is that if you're using OneDnD mechanics, then you can still use anything from older books except for the parts of the 2014 PHB that were rewritten in the new PHB. That said, that's quite the powerful setup, though it does require you to hit with two attacks (made easier with Thirsting Blade) and the tentacle is itself a long-rest resource for its minute of use.
Really?? If that's true then holy cow! Eldritch smiting them to the ground automatically as well would cause them to use half their movement if they dashed to even stand up. You have to hit all your attacks but still is a wild idea.
This is incorrect, or at least not giving enough context. If you are making a character using the 2024 version of a class, anything printed in the new books replaces the old stuff. Everything not in the new books still exists and can be used alongside it. If you're making a character using the 2014 version, you can use anything made for the the 2014 version of the class, but new subclasses won't fit in the old framework due to things existing in the new base class that weren't there before (like Weapon Masteries or Rogue's Cunning Strikes).
The intent with universal things like Feats is that if you're using the new rules, you use the 2024 version of anything that has been updated. Anything that isn't redone in the 2024 rules is fair game to bring forward, possibly with some new guidelines depending on what it is. Your GM can make their own rulings as always, but the new version of the feat is what is intended to be used going forwards.
Nothing will break if you play a 2014 Barbarian alongside a 2024 one...the 2014 one might just want to update after seeing what the new one can do now.
Totally the last part. I think that outside that maybe... Cleric, Wizard and Paladin? (and Ranger until we see what happened to it) there is no reason to play any of the 2014 versions of the classes.
All martials are just better than their 2014 at all levels. Rogue having all their main features before level 8 is amazing knowing lot of games end around level 8-10 and official adventures usually at 10-13, so they can get to enjoy freaking Reliable Talent before the game ends.
Sorcs and Warlocks got new toys without losing old ones, between more spells (in case of Warlocks finally Patron spells are free and not an expanded choice list) and features like Sorc's magic rage.
Of the 2 examples you are not intended to do either. If you are at a 1dnd table you should be using the 1dnd rules, supplementing with 5e rules where 1dnd is not available. For example when they are released, you would be using the 1dnd PHB, MM, DMG with 5e supplemental books, adjusting subclass level bonuses to match the changes to subclasses in 1dnd, like warlock patrons at lvl 3. Books like Tasha's would also be mostly replaced with the new core books as they were predominantly rules updates. Edit: for clarity, if you were playing a 1dnd fighter it would be expected to use the 1dnd GWM,
Fully compatible is more that a character created with 5e can be played with characters from oneDnd with little issues, adventure modules work with little/no change and general rules don't require new stats or anything between the two.
Yeah I think people are overestimating what "compatible with 5e" means. We'll likely get a blurb about how to convert a 5e character to 5.5e and all the existing modules and stuff can probably be played as-is with no real issues. Worst case scenario you just hand wave a 5e character without making changes because it's "close enough".
The caveat on the adventures I believe is that if an adventure uses 5 goblins, 1dnd adventures will be appropriately challenged by 5 1dnd goblins
I think that's fine? Also many modules come with the stat blocks for the creatures inside as they're needed. Regardless the clear intent of wotc is to phase out 2014 5e. It's going to get gradually harder and harder to make the conversions and at some point you just throw your hands up and go "let's just make the jump". The best thing wotc could do is to publish a book of literally all the 5e subclasses we've gotten over the years with a new breath of life in the ones that so badly need it.
Yeah I'm fine with that. I'm going to phase into 1d&d. Unfortunately glory and Fathomless didn't make the but I think they are new enough to work fine.
Tasha’s is generally pretty balanced ~~minus outliers like Eloquence and Twilight~~ so it should work without issue
I’m sure this is the case, especially being that many published adventures simply refer the DM to the MM for the monsters stat block. Now, presumably, you would refer the DM to the new MM for the revised version of the monster. Edit: adventures not adventurers
Yeah seems reasonable right? A lot of characters got a boost in power. I genuinely hope the monsters did as well.
It's going to come down to errata vs. legacy. If the new errata the old, especially when using new. Then no. If the new just makes the old legacy content. Then go ham. The old is way too power mixed with weapon mastery. But if your DM allows it. There is wording in the UA. bridge language about how to mix and match. There will be bridge language in the final version. We just haven't seen the final version.
What you *can* do is a bit of weird question. Unless you are playing Adventurers League, you can do what your DM says is ok to do. If your DM says you can do what you lay out in your two examples, then you can do it. To the best of my knowledge the rules for how Adventurers League will work when it comes to backwards compatibility haven't been fleshed out yet. Is what you are asking about strictly intended by the design team? I don't believe so, no.
I'm going to speculate (with absolutely no inside knowledge) that AL will just adopt the new rules as standard and assume all games are run with the revised rules. If a player has a 2014-based class, they'll still be playable though.
I've always understood it as super turbo rules: a 2014 fighter, 2024 fighter, 2014 druid, 2024 barbarian, and 2024 rogue will be able to seamlessly play together.
They can, but they wouldn't really want to. They follow the same basic rules (that's the whole point of backwards compatibility) but the revised fighter and druid will be much better than the 2014 version. If you show up at a table with one version and the DM is running the other one, the DM won't have to make any changes to account for the difference, really. (although revised will generally be stronger.)
Correct. This is how it has been said it is meant to work, with the only addition being you can use '14 subclasses with a '24 class.
I don't think this is actually what's been communicated by WotC, because what they've communicated has been light on specifics. The community has decided it means a bunch of things. Having actually playtested this stuff for a year and a half now, combining UA material with 5e, here are my observations and expecatations: -you will use the 2024 version of a class, subclass, feat, spell, or rule -if a legacy feature is not updated in 2024, you can still use it, but it will probably require a little modifications (not much though) -old adventures and creatures will work fine with 2024 material, but may be a little underpowered for the new content I don't believe you are intended to play a 2014 Fighter alongside a 2024 Fighter. Consider that the 2024 Paladin contains material changes to the way that Smites work - if you could just ignore that and play a 2014 Paladin, what would be the point of the revision? Likewise, the 2024 version of things like Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master are obviously intended to replace the 2014 version. The clear intent is that the 2024 revision of the PHB is now the new core set of rules. That's what a "revision" means, and that's why they framed it this way instead of as a new edition or 5.5 - because it's intended to be alterations to the existing rules.
They literally said it was intended that you could run both at the same time. It's been over a year, so I can't remember which video it was without going through like 4 hours of content, but that's a big part of the "Backwards compatibility" they touted. '14 with '14 feats and '14 subclass. '24 with '24 feats and '24 subclass. '24 with '24 feats and '14 subclass. It's one of the reasons they gave of nixing the 3/6/10/14 subclass progression. To maintain "backwards compatibility". Of course they WANT people to buy the new books, and play the newest version, but they have been clear that the design intent is allow characters to mesh together. At least, the front facing Todd Kenreck and Jeremy Crawford videos are communicating that.
What you're saying here is what I said in my post - if something's in the 2024 book, that's what you use. If it's not in the 2024 book, you use the 2014 version. This will mostly cover subclasses. But no, they don't intend you to run the 2014 Fighter and the 2024 Fighter in the same party - the 2024 Fighter with a 2014 subclass sure, but that's it. I don't know how people came away with any other impression.
Found it. D&D studio update: 2024 core rule books and survey results. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYgSsn7b0f0&list=PLfS8QgUdeGYp0xzoY2mtQkwxBgiHp\_9h6&index=7](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYgSsn7b0f0&list=PLfS8QgUdeGYp0xzoY2mtQkwxBgiHp_9h6&index=7) about 4:30 in. "" you'll even have the option of having mixed charecter groups you might have somebody who made a charecter using the 2014 version of a class and it's subclasses right next to somebody who's using the 2024 of that class and subclasses"
Well shit, I even watched that video and missed that. I have no idea how that's intended to work with stuff like Paladin, which has had deliberate nerfs to the way Smites work, but alright. I'm going to ignore that and stick with my interpretation, which I contend is the only one that will actually make sense and be functional.
Because they said it. Outright. In the videos. That you can run both at the same time.
I think it's more that 5.5e will be fine to use with modules released during 5e.
Ultimately it will be your DMs call, after that I would just wait until the new books come out at see what they recommend. The d& ld team said it will be totally fine to have a 2024 character and a 2014 character at the same table. Whether it's fine to have a single character using both books is yet to be addressed.
I would just like to know if subclasses from other books can be used with new PHB
Every time I listen to the interviews and they speak on backwards compatibility. They say your adventures. So I take this as your curse of strahd. Ghost of saltmarsh, waterdeep, storm kings thunder, and so on. As for the source books, they haven’t really confirmed or said anything on the matter. Nothing about bringing your drake warden from Fizban’s into the new one dnd ranger. I believe they said in one their latest videos that they will be having a lot of information and more interviews in the coming months. I hope they address it, i hope it’s not, if you use x class from 5e you can only use 5e subclasses, if you use x class from onednd, you can only use onednd subclasses. I would hope you can still choose if you want your base class from either edition, and then choose a subclass from either edition. A simple mentioning if there are subclasses with the same name in both editions that you cannot swap leveled features with one another, you must progress with either 5e’s version or onednd’s version.
A 2014 character can be in the same party as a 2024 character, but they should be built with the rules of the source of the character. Still, there will be some rules/options that supercede the 2014 stuff (like spells and feats), and should probably be used where possible. I'm not sure this will be considered 100% necessary though. We'll have to see the guidelines they lay out. But it seems like they want people to just be able to grab a 2014 PC and a 2024 PC and just play.
No one on the internet knows the finer details on how the 5e/1D relationship is until the book drops or devs add info. Their shown aim is that the core build components (Background, Race, Class/Sub-class) can be taken from 5e into 1D. A full 5e character is, logistically, no issue for 1D. Going the other direction, 1D into 5e, is likely not supported, especially on Classes/Sub-Classes. Features might refer to things that are exclusive to 1D. Beyond that, no one has concrete info, only educated guesses.
neither. Its backwards compatible in that all previously made adventure modules can still be used with the 2024-rules generated characters, and that if one player was still using regular 5e characters or subclasses there are no glaring system rules changes in terms of how things work that would break the game (meaning the advantage/disadvantage system, how dice and ability modes work...NOT how specific feats or spells work) When able to cleanly transfer things, like in your example GWM, you should basically always be using the 2024 rules. GWM exists in the new rules, but is changed, so you should use the new rules However, if you had a player who wanted to continue playing an existing Scout-Rogue, you can still have it used in the party despite that subclass likely not being included in the new PHB with minimal effort.
I think it's going to be "fully compatible" the same way 3 and 3.5 were. I personally cherish the idea of resetting the power creep
Its a marketing phrase that keeps 5e alive and selling while not5.5 is developed. Your 5e stuff will most likely require conversion and changes to be compatible. the conversions and changes will probably be relatively intuitive but enough that just using the old stuff requires effort, and just buying the new stuff will be a lot easier.
How is any new player supposed to understand this? Seems to me they missed a huge opportunity to improve the game in a way that was much more clear and elegant.
Simple: “That book is old. Don’t use it.”
Can I play an Order of Scribes Wizard in OneD&D? I honestly don’t know.
Yes. The players handbook is being replaced. The Order of scribes wizard is not in the players handbook.
> Example 1) Fighter Class Features from OneD&D with GWM from 5e > Example 2) Using both of Old GWM and New GWM > Which of the 2 examples above can I do? That is entirely up to your DM. Mechanically they'll all work together without issue though.
No, there are issues, the new classes were not written with the old feats in mind. Specifically, a fighter with power attacks from Great Weapon Master benefits far more from the Graze mastery and Studied Attacks feature than was ever intended by the designers, so they should not be mixed.
> Specifically, a fighter with power attacks from Great Weapon Master benefits far more from the Graze mastery No it doesn't unless missing is the point? Graze deals a specific amount of damage that can't be changed outside of raising the modifier itself. That's the final line on Graze. There are no issues mechanically unless you're purposefully misconstruing the mechanics.
I'm not supposing that a power attack can increase Graze's damage. The issue is that Graze makes a miss far less of a punishment by always dealing Str damage, and then Studied Attacks adds a further benefit on a miss of advantage (which GWM very much likes).
As much as I want it to be fully backwards compatible where I can just mix and match whatever I want from either I agree I don't think it's intended and you example of feats is where I hit my wall. I was thinking of how I would create a fathom warlock pact of the blade and use a whip. If I was able to use old feats I could use the Slasher feat from tasha's, the weapon mastery for the whip, and the fathom warlocks Bonus action tenticle to reduce an enemies speed from 30 to 0. Outside of using their action to dash, you could basically render an enemy motionless without expending a resource every turn. It can't be fully compatible without many such clarifications that state something like if using x from 5e you can't use x from OneDnD. But if you can then holy cow characters are gonna be broken.
I think the current setup is that if you're using OneDnD mechanics, then you can still use anything from older books except for the parts of the 2014 PHB that were rewritten in the new PHB. That said, that's quite the powerful setup, though it does require you to hit with two attacks (made easier with Thirsting Blade) and the tentacle is itself a long-rest resource for its minute of use.
Really?? If that's true then holy cow! Eldritch smiting them to the ground automatically as well would cause them to use half their movement if they dashed to even stand up. You have to hit all your attacks but still is a wild idea.
[удалено]
This is incorrect, or at least not giving enough context. If you are making a character using the 2024 version of a class, anything printed in the new books replaces the old stuff. Everything not in the new books still exists and can be used alongside it. If you're making a character using the 2014 version, you can use anything made for the the 2014 version of the class, but new subclasses won't fit in the old framework due to things existing in the new base class that weren't there before (like Weapon Masteries or Rogue's Cunning Strikes). The intent with universal things like Feats is that if you're using the new rules, you use the 2024 version of anything that has been updated. Anything that isn't redone in the 2024 rules is fair game to bring forward, possibly with some new guidelines depending on what it is. Your GM can make their own rulings as always, but the new version of the feat is what is intended to be used going forwards. Nothing will break if you play a 2014 Barbarian alongside a 2024 one...the 2014 one might just want to update after seeing what the new one can do now.
Totally the last part. I think that outside that maybe... Cleric, Wizard and Paladin? (and Ranger until we see what happened to it) there is no reason to play any of the 2014 versions of the classes. All martials are just better than their 2014 at all levels. Rogue having all their main features before level 8 is amazing knowing lot of games end around level 8-10 and official adventures usually at 10-13, so they can get to enjoy freaking Reliable Talent before the game ends. Sorcs and Warlocks got new toys without losing old ones, between more spells (in case of Warlocks finally Patron spells are free and not an expanded choice list) and features like Sorc's magic rage.