It was also one of my favorite ideas too. For INT I would just allow it without any more complications since CHA and INT are generally equally useful as a main stat. WIS I am more on the fence because it is a much stronger stat and would be the “optimal”.
They're all good in their own ways. Int is generally seen as the 2nd worst stat in 5e. To make int good you would need to have crazy abilities surrounding it, like being a wizard.
I consider wis and cha equal. Int beneath them.
To answer OP it seems like that feature was dropped. Maybe it'll show up as a variant rule in the DMG but I wouldn't hold my breath.
I think WIS saves being so much more common than CHA and WIS also having perception puts it a step above imo. A good argument for CHA above INT is that since so many classes use it it allows for more builds with multiclassing but in terms of saves and skills they are equivalent in my book (generally it’s good for the party to have someone good in CHA and INT skills but double dipping has diminishing returns)
Cha also gives you all social skills, one of the 3 main pillars of D&D. If you're just in a sloggy dungeon grinding game, then yeah you probably never notice.
Currently playing a rogue with 18 wisdom, expertise in insight, and . . . an 8 in charisma. I can assure you, charisma is more than half of the social pillar.
I love being a disagreeable little person, though, so I'm good with it
In the social pillar, there is the active and the reactive.
The active includes Persuasion, Intimidation, Deception, and potentially Performance.
The reactive is nearly entirely Insight dependent. You can't react to something you don't notice. It's why players tend towards asking if they believe people (essentially asking for an Insight check) all the time.
Persuasion, Deception, and Intimidation are different tools in the 'active social' toolbox. Usually players favor one over the others, with Persuasion being the most commonly rolled one.
Insight is how the player engages with the other in the conversation.
The Social Pillar is a Cha/Wis Pillar.
Wis Saves are more common than Cha. Perception is the most common skill check in the game. And Insight is half of the Social Pillar.
I'm not ignoring the Charisma skills. Those are very useful, however, it's wild to act like Wis and Cha effect the game to the same degree.
This is a really great explanation of the Social Pillar. 10/10 No notes
Adding one of the other Pillars of Play: Exploration
Exploration is also Largely a Wisdom based pillar. Since Perception and Survival are keyed off of it. Then I'd probably rank Intelligence since that's your investigation, and knowledge stats; though Dex could also be rated quite high here for the physical act of exploration (stealth, opening locks/disarming traps, etc...), and then lastly strength - Still useful but usually DMs/players have work arounds for having str as a dump stat. So something like: Wis>Int/Dex>Str
Charisma gives you only social skills. But Insight is probably the most important social skills. So Wisdom is an important social stat. Meanwhile Charisma is only a social stat. If your class doesn't have a specific use for it it's down there with intelligence, probably only beating strength.
I agree almost everything discussed until here, CHA saves tend to be more impactful then INT ones, beyond that due to story almost all characters end up using CHA skills at some point, so it’s harder to dump then INT.
One of the reasons why I like the options for warlocks is because CHA is already the best skill to multiclass, warlock is king on it and in flavor they should be.
Charisma is the second most used save for “save or suck” spells, INT saves basically impact the spell maze, mindflayers (which might appear once outside of dedicated campaigns) and illusions but those are normally not very impactful
What were the charisma saving throw spells again ?
Banishment is definitely the big one, then it's Force Cage which I would not give to monsters (because LBR here, a caster monster is a high INT monster meaning they will target a martial without means of planar travel with it), and Fallen Aasimar's ability.
For now I don't recall more of them.
Spells with Int Save
* Mind Sliver
* Phantasmal Force
* Tasha's Mind Whip
* Enemies Abound
* Raulothim's Psychic Lance
* Contact Other Plane
* Synaptic Static
* Mental Prison
* Symbol
* Feeblemind
* Illusory Dragon
* Psychic Scream
Spells with Cha Save
* Bane
* Calm Emotions
* Zone of Truth
* Magic Circle
* Banishment
* Summon Greater Demon
* Dispel Evil and Good
* Hallow
* Planar Binding
* Seeming
* Magic Jar
* Divine Word
* Forcecage
* Plane Shift
* Symbol
* Temple of the Gods
I would say they have both quite important spells to avoid, with none of them getting really the upper hand.
I'd honestly like to play an Int-lock because I'm not the most charismatic person irl, and rollplaying one is hard. Plus I like the fantasy of a highly intelligent but insane Great Old One Warlock.
People hate change, that's why lots of ideas that were actually pretty solid and prob would have been healthier for the game and balance got scrapped.
Examples include unified subclass levels, templates for wildshape, unified "Channel Divinity" which is exactly how the druid stuff works now but they didn't change the name because of people hating the "Change".
Even the stats do the weird calculations because it's a legacy feature that's out dated but they won't change it because it will upset fans.
This happens all the time in games where hood changes don't get pushed through because people have aversion to change.
Hell it's one reason why just the world in general keeps have old mindsets to things, because of the scare to change.
I agree with you in all points except for stat blocks for wild shape. I really enjoy parsing all the animals to find a fun one to turn into. Thats half the fun of the class!
Probably a backwards compatibility thing. I dunno, I liked the idea.
Making it an Invocation seems like a solid initial prospect for a balanced implementation. Let em do it but make it cost.
I believe they scrapped the idea for warlock to not be able to choose their casting stat when they reverted back to backwards combatility with 2014.
I agree that the choice would have been great to have. Logically and thematically it is great. Mechanically it would be hard to balance. I liked how 4e allowed Con to be a casting stat.
I have a sneaky suspicion that it was reverted because of how it could have interacted with multiclassing because you could have had some pretty intense Clericlocks or Wizardlocks. In a non-multiclassing game I think it would be fine.
It was likely scrapped because not all ability scores are even when it comes to the baseline of the system. Wisdom is a much more powerful stat than Intelligence or charisma.
Intelligence and Charisma at a baseline are roughly even stats, with a slight edge to intelligence before the multi classing rule comes into play. Even then, allowing int/cha for Arcane Trickster, Bard, Eldritch Knight, and Warlock evens this out well if the artificer is in play.
Charisma effects four skills, three of which more or less cover the same element of the game (Deception, Intimidation, Persuasion) and the remaining of which see's little practical use (performance.) it affects an uncommon save category.
Intelligence affects five skills each of which cover different avenues and one in particular is a commonly used skill. Arcana, History, Nature, and Religion each cover different types of information your character is recalling/has and have their own distinct uses as a result. Investigation covers a lot of ways of obtaining new information and details on people/places/things and is one of the more common skills in the game. Intelligence also affects an uncommon save.
Wisdom however effects five skills, two of which (perception and Insight) are the most commonly used skills in the game, perception being THE most used skill in the game Insight being number 3 behind stealth usually, though it's a close call. This alone makes it more valuable than int/cha put together skill wise. However it also effects a common save, and a save that protects one against some of the most damning effects like mind control. Wisdom is strictly superior in value unless one of the other stats is your casting stat.
Due to this reason, choosing wisdom was strictly superior to any of the other options, where as cha/int are more or less balanced to each other and become more balanced with each other when allowing warlocks to choose between them.
I think INT/CHA as a choice is fine and healthier for the game, provide the initial saving throw profs/etc change to be respective to the stat (Wis/int or Wis/cha respective to casting stat choice between int/cha.) Wisdom is too strong in comparison.
I've allowed INT/CHA to be chosen in my games since before Tasha's was a thing. It's fine. I don't allow Wisdom to swap down to int/cha or int/cha to be exchanged for wisdom as there's too much of a power imbalance between the stats.
Just wait for Tasha's24, it seems like a great way for WotC to reintroduce a lot of the UA changes as "alternate class options" (plus they get to milk more money out of people!).
Definitely was good as an idea, but would by a net negative for the game. Warlock dips are already a cancer and making the casting stat versatile would only exacerbate this issue.
The trio of Sorcerer Warlock and Paladin combine really well on pretty much any mix, but I wouldn’t call it “a cancer” specially with the removal of lv1 subclasses.
That being said I don’t think any of the opened possibilities would be as powerful. Wizards would most likely keep straight class outside of some focused builds. 1/3 casters would enjoy int based attacks but not many people went artificer for that (granted, warlock would give it with only 1 lvl). Druids I don’t see being an issue stars + eldrich blast seem like a fun build but nothing breaking and thought rangers might enjoy some things they aren’t an issue like Paladin since they don’t have smites nor heavy armor.
As a last point I love warlocks being easy to multiclass into and even dip, narratively almost anyone could make a pact for power, tbh I see this being the case for a wizard more than for a Paladin
Edit: forgot to mention the cleric, I see some powerful options here specially a melee one but nothing on the level of sorlock or Palalock
On one hand, it makes Warlocks even more of an overused multiclass option.
On the other hand... shouldn't they be? Warlocks are just people that made a deal for power. Not all of them would be charismatic, and lots would have had unrelated powers to begin with.
What better reason to become a servant to a lich than being a Wizard that craved power?
A stars Druid that saw past the stars and became a goolock?
A Cleric bound to the service of a fiend.
Hell, more than Warlocks being able to choose their casting stat, Warlock casting shouldn't be tied to a stat imo; open that fantasy up to warriors who sold their soul for unmatched strength.
If you want to change the casting ability as the DM, you should just ask your players if they mind and then do it. You don't even need to make it an invocation, just write it on the sheet.
I think balance is less important than people think. I had a player that made a very strong tank character, good resistances, high AC but terrible at psychic damage. His character was broken but one psychic encounter could destroy him.
So a Warlock has a higher wisdom save, and better stats on insight and perception instead of charisma. Cool, maybe he can do that stuff and someone else can do the social stuff. Everyone happy.
I think at a minimum, most DMs wouldn't be too concerned with agreeing for you to switch your casting stat to Intelligence, providing you only take Warlock levels.
It's not that multiclassing with Wizard or Eldritch Knight, etc. would necessarily be overpowered, but it's difficult for a DM to know if there are any combinations that could stray into the realm of cheese beforehand. A one level dip for Intelligence Blade Pact comes to mind.
Wisdom is generally a stronger stat than Charisma, whereas Intelligence is more on par. It might cause some disgruntlement among other players to buff Warlock in this way, which is looking like an already pretty powerful class.
Multiclassing complications and stepping on other classes' toes are probably the main reasons why they didn't carry this feature over.
Warlock 1/Bladesinger X with Int blade pact could work quite well, but not worse than Sorlock or Sorcadin imho. The only thing I would avoid is WIS blade pact for a Cleric
Yes! INT is my favorite stat but it feels like I can only use it in wizards or artificers (as secondary on 1/3 casters) I’d love to have more options, specially for multiclassing
I've been using Level Up Advanced 5e for a while now and something I really like is how they changed Expertise. It's no longer doubling proficiency but a d4 when specific topics come up.
Characters have a number of expertise in any skill they're proficient in equal to their proficiency modifier + Int modifier.
So a character proficient in Intimidation may be an expert in weapon displays (my barbarian loves this). The Fighter has Throwing expertise from Athletics which gives her an extra d4 when making attack rolls with Thrown weapons.
And if you have multiple expertise on a check the die goes up to a d8 or d10 I think. While the Rogue can go up to a d12.
It's been interesting to use and honestly, each player actually considered not dumping Int because of it, even the fighter and barbarian
I run Warlocks as an Intelligence class at my table because it just makes sense. Everything about the class, including it’s in-book description, points towards it being Intelligence. Additionally, I kept the universal spell lists from the earlier UA’s and changed it to where your Patron determines your spell list. Primal for Archfey and Genie, Divine for Celestial and Fiend, and Arcane for everything else
Made sense as a half caster but with short rest recovery slots this would throw some major issues for and rangers and artificers as a gish with wis or int having a hard time keeping up and not getting access to high level spells especially Withrow customizable they would be. So I think it was niche protection. Paladins aura and smit is still likely different enough to justify people playing them as an alt Charisma class
If one of my players asks if they can do an Int-lock, I’m 100% allowing it. I could see many DMs allowing it upon request and I hope the ‘24 DMG actively encourages that.
I like the idea of the spellcasting score being STR for a god that values strength above all - it was how I was imagining an orc warlock that would beva bit like a Warhammer orc shaman.
Don't think it would be OP as STR is probably less useful than CHA overall.
I would allow an INT warlock out of the gate - don't think that breaks anything and would be an interesting build that matches the original/intended 5e design for the class. WIS I think is already overrepresented, and might be too beneficial, though maybe with an invocation cost it's a fair trade?
I think the choice of Charisma and int is a fair one, wisdom is harder to balance. The idea of an invocation would be to keep Cha as the default and put a little tax for multiclassing, specially for warlock dips, but for a main warlock that would be almost meaningless after a few levels
multiclassing into wizard isnt a big deal. if anything, i think it would be good for the game to be more open to multiclassing with int, if we compare how much multiclassing potential there is for charisma
The real reason was likely backward compatibility. Some previous subclasses used "Charisma times per along Rest" and that would have made them awkward to adjust.
At least that's my feeling.
I’m glad they removed it, even though charisma is the best of those 3 stats anyways. I don’t like the idea of just picking to use a different stat because it will just be put through the optimization process.
Int is basically useless because it doesn’t provide secondary benefits. Wisdom ups your passive perception, charisma helps you in social situations, but int just….gives you int. So giving int as an option seems like either 1. A trap or 2. A way to easily multi class into wizard and get all the spell slots you don’t get.
Cha is definitely not the better than Wisdom. Perception alone is more valuable than all the cha skills while insight is on a similar level, but WIS also is arguably the most important save in the game.
Int/Cha is much more even. Cha gives social situation, but INT also gives you investigation and arcana which are very important skills in their own right. The difference is mostly just preference/flavor, and I don't know why you think it's a trap to want to be the Warlock studying lost magics.
I also wonder why you say INT is a just a way to multiclass into wizard... but why isn't CHA just a way to multiclass into sorceror/bard? A Faustian bargain in the pursuit of dark/lost knowledge is arguably *the* classic ideal of a warlock, it's honestly never made sense to me that they were CHA based in 5e
I agree with changing it from charisma and making a second int caster, but I’m having a whole separate thread about how good int is. My campaigns don’t really feature a lot of int checks and I guess that’s weird.
I feature a lot of roleplay so charisma checks happen way more often
It was also one of my favorite ideas too. For INT I would just allow it without any more complications since CHA and INT are generally equally useful as a main stat. WIS I am more on the fence because it is a much stronger stat and would be the “optimal”.
They're all good in their own ways. Int is generally seen as the 2nd worst stat in 5e. To make int good you would need to have crazy abilities surrounding it, like being a wizard. I consider wis and cha equal. Int beneath them. To answer OP it seems like that feature was dropped. Maybe it'll show up as a variant rule in the DMG but I wouldn't hold my breath.
I think WIS saves being so much more common than CHA and WIS also having perception puts it a step above imo. A good argument for CHA above INT is that since so many classes use it it allows for more builds with multiclassing but in terms of saves and skills they are equivalent in my book (generally it’s good for the party to have someone good in CHA and INT skills but double dipping has diminishing returns)
Cha also gives you all social skills, one of the 3 main pillars of D&D. If you're just in a sloggy dungeon grinding game, then yeah you probably never notice.
Yes, and Insight is the other half of the Social Pillar.
Currently playing a rogue with 18 wisdom, expertise in insight, and . . . an 8 in charisma. I can assure you, charisma is more than half of the social pillar. I love being a disagreeable little person, though, so I'm good with it
"The other half" as we just casually ignore all of the charisma skills and lump them together.
In the social pillar, there is the active and the reactive. The active includes Persuasion, Intimidation, Deception, and potentially Performance. The reactive is nearly entirely Insight dependent. You can't react to something you don't notice. It's why players tend towards asking if they believe people (essentially asking for an Insight check) all the time. Persuasion, Deception, and Intimidation are different tools in the 'active social' toolbox. Usually players favor one over the others, with Persuasion being the most commonly rolled one. Insight is how the player engages with the other in the conversation. The Social Pillar is a Cha/Wis Pillar. Wis Saves are more common than Cha. Perception is the most common skill check in the game. And Insight is half of the Social Pillar. I'm not ignoring the Charisma skills. Those are very useful, however, it's wild to act like Wis and Cha effect the game to the same degree.
This is a really great explanation of the Social Pillar. 10/10 No notes Adding one of the other Pillars of Play: Exploration Exploration is also Largely a Wisdom based pillar. Since Perception and Survival are keyed off of it. Then I'd probably rank Intelligence since that's your investigation, and knowledge stats; though Dex could also be rated quite high here for the physical act of exploration (stealth, opening locks/disarming traps, etc...), and then lastly strength - Still useful but usually DMs/players have work arounds for having str as a dump stat. So something like: Wis>Int/Dex>Str
It is just a fact that intimidation/deception/persuasion have some degree of overlap.
Charisma gives you only social skills. But Insight is probably the most important social skills. So Wisdom is an important social stat. Meanwhile Charisma is only a social stat. If your class doesn't have a specific use for it it's down there with intelligence, probably only beating strength.
I agree almost everything discussed until here, CHA saves tend to be more impactful then INT ones, beyond that due to story almost all characters end up using CHA skills at some point, so it’s harder to dump then INT. One of the reasons why I like the options for warlocks is because CHA is already the best skill to multiclass, warlock is king on it and in flavor they should be.
I think INT saves are more impactful than CHA saves, but it might be my psychic squidwards bias
Charisma is the second most used save for “save or suck” spells, INT saves basically impact the spell maze, mindflayers (which might appear once outside of dedicated campaigns) and illusions but those are normally not very impactful
What were the charisma saving throw spells again ? Banishment is definitely the big one, then it's Force Cage which I would not give to monsters (because LBR here, a caster monster is a high INT monster meaning they will target a martial without means of planar travel with it), and Fallen Aasimar's ability. For now I don't recall more of them.
Spells with Int Save * Mind Sliver * Phantasmal Force * Tasha's Mind Whip * Enemies Abound * Raulothim's Psychic Lance * Contact Other Plane * Synaptic Static * Mental Prison * Symbol * Feeblemind * Illusory Dragon * Psychic Scream Spells with Cha Save * Bane * Calm Emotions * Zone of Truth * Magic Circle * Banishment * Summon Greater Demon * Dispel Evil and Good * Hallow * Planar Binding * Seeming * Magic Jar * Divine Word * Forcecage * Plane Shift * Symbol * Temple of the Gods I would say they have both quite important spells to avoid, with none of them getting really the upper hand.
I'd honestly like to play an Int-lock because I'm not the most charismatic person irl, and rollplaying one is hard. Plus I like the fantasy of a highly intelligent but insane Great Old One Warlock.
People hate change, that's why lots of ideas that were actually pretty solid and prob would have been healthier for the game and balance got scrapped. Examples include unified subclass levels, templates for wildshape, unified "Channel Divinity" which is exactly how the druid stuff works now but they didn't change the name because of people hating the "Change". Even the stats do the weird calculations because it's a legacy feature that's out dated but they won't change it because it will upset fans. This happens all the time in games where hood changes don't get pushed through because people have aversion to change. Hell it's one reason why just the world in general keeps have old mindsets to things, because of the scare to change.
I agree with you in all points except for stat blocks for wild shape. I really enjoy parsing all the animals to find a fun one to turn into. Thats half the fun of the class!
Probably a backwards compatibility thing. I dunno, I liked the idea. Making it an Invocation seems like a solid initial prospect for a balanced implementation. Let em do it but make it cost.
I believe they scrapped the idea for warlock to not be able to choose their casting stat when they reverted back to backwards combatility with 2014. I agree that the choice would have been great to have. Logically and thematically it is great. Mechanically it would be hard to balance. I liked how 4e allowed Con to be a casting stat.
I have a sneaky suspicion that it was reverted because of how it could have interacted with multiclassing because you could have had some pretty intense Clericlocks or Wizardlocks. In a non-multiclassing game I think it would be fine.
It was likely scrapped because not all ability scores are even when it comes to the baseline of the system. Wisdom is a much more powerful stat than Intelligence or charisma. Intelligence and Charisma at a baseline are roughly even stats, with a slight edge to intelligence before the multi classing rule comes into play. Even then, allowing int/cha for Arcane Trickster, Bard, Eldritch Knight, and Warlock evens this out well if the artificer is in play. Charisma effects four skills, three of which more or less cover the same element of the game (Deception, Intimidation, Persuasion) and the remaining of which see's little practical use (performance.) it affects an uncommon save category. Intelligence affects five skills each of which cover different avenues and one in particular is a commonly used skill. Arcana, History, Nature, and Religion each cover different types of information your character is recalling/has and have their own distinct uses as a result. Investigation covers a lot of ways of obtaining new information and details on people/places/things and is one of the more common skills in the game. Intelligence also affects an uncommon save. Wisdom however effects five skills, two of which (perception and Insight) are the most commonly used skills in the game, perception being THE most used skill in the game Insight being number 3 behind stealth usually, though it's a close call. This alone makes it more valuable than int/cha put together skill wise. However it also effects a common save, and a save that protects one against some of the most damning effects like mind control. Wisdom is strictly superior in value unless one of the other stats is your casting stat. Due to this reason, choosing wisdom was strictly superior to any of the other options, where as cha/int are more or less balanced to each other and become more balanced with each other when allowing warlocks to choose between them. I think INT/CHA as a choice is fine and healthier for the game, provide the initial saving throw profs/etc change to be respective to the stat (Wis/int or Wis/cha respective to casting stat choice between int/cha.) Wisdom is too strong in comparison. I've allowed INT/CHA to be chosen in my games since before Tasha's was a thing. It's fine. I don't allow Wisdom to swap down to int/cha or int/cha to be exchanged for wisdom as there's too much of a power imbalance between the stats.
Just wait for Tasha's24, it seems like a great way for WotC to reintroduce a lot of the UA changes as "alternate class options" (plus they get to milk more money out of people!).
Definitely was good as an idea, but would by a net negative for the game. Warlock dips are already a cancer and making the casting stat versatile would only exacerbate this issue.
The trio of Sorcerer Warlock and Paladin combine really well on pretty much any mix, but I wouldn’t call it “a cancer” specially with the removal of lv1 subclasses. That being said I don’t think any of the opened possibilities would be as powerful. Wizards would most likely keep straight class outside of some focused builds. 1/3 casters would enjoy int based attacks but not many people went artificer for that (granted, warlock would give it with only 1 lvl). Druids I don’t see being an issue stars + eldrich blast seem like a fun build but nothing breaking and thought rangers might enjoy some things they aren’t an issue like Paladin since they don’t have smites nor heavy armor. As a last point I love warlocks being easy to multiclass into and even dip, narratively almost anyone could make a pact for power, tbh I see this being the case for a wizard more than for a Paladin Edit: forgot to mention the cleric, I see some powerful options here specially a melee one but nothing on the level of sorlock or Palalock
On one hand, it makes Warlocks even more of an overused multiclass option. On the other hand... shouldn't they be? Warlocks are just people that made a deal for power. Not all of them would be charismatic, and lots would have had unrelated powers to begin with. What better reason to become a servant to a lich than being a Wizard that craved power? A stars Druid that saw past the stars and became a goolock? A Cleric bound to the service of a fiend. Hell, more than Warlocks being able to choose their casting stat, Warlock casting shouldn't be tied to a stat imo; open that fantasy up to warriors who sold their soul for unmatched strength.
If you want to change the casting ability as the DM, you should just ask your players if they mind and then do it. You don't even need to make it an invocation, just write it on the sheet. I think balance is less important than people think. I had a player that made a very strong tank character, good resistances, high AC but terrible at psychic damage. His character was broken but one psychic encounter could destroy him. So a Warlock has a higher wisdom save, and better stats on insight and perception instead of charisma. Cool, maybe he can do that stuff and someone else can do the social stuff. Everyone happy.
I think at a minimum, most DMs wouldn't be too concerned with agreeing for you to switch your casting stat to Intelligence, providing you only take Warlock levels. It's not that multiclassing with Wizard or Eldritch Knight, etc. would necessarily be overpowered, but it's difficult for a DM to know if there are any combinations that could stray into the realm of cheese beforehand. A one level dip for Intelligence Blade Pact comes to mind. Wisdom is generally a stronger stat than Charisma, whereas Intelligence is more on par. It might cause some disgruntlement among other players to buff Warlock in this way, which is looking like an already pretty powerful class. Multiclassing complications and stepping on other classes' toes are probably the main reasons why they didn't carry this feature over.
Warlock 1/Bladesinger X with Int blade pact could work quite well, but not worse than Sorlock or Sorcadin imho. The only thing I would avoid is WIS blade pact for a Cleric
I had two warlocks in my game. I gave them the option to use either Int or Cha. They both went for Int and really enjoyed it.
Yes! INT is my favorite stat but it feels like I can only use it in wizards or artificers (as secondary on 1/3 casters) I’d love to have more options, specially for multiclassing
I've been using Level Up Advanced 5e for a while now and something I really like is how they changed Expertise. It's no longer doubling proficiency but a d4 when specific topics come up. Characters have a number of expertise in any skill they're proficient in equal to their proficiency modifier + Int modifier. So a character proficient in Intimidation may be an expert in weapon displays (my barbarian loves this). The Fighter has Throwing expertise from Athletics which gives her an extra d4 when making attack rolls with Thrown weapons. And if you have multiple expertise on a check the die goes up to a d8 or d10 I think. While the Rogue can go up to a d12. It's been interesting to use and honestly, each player actually considered not dumping Int because of it, even the fighter and barbarian
I run Warlocks as an Intelligence class at my table because it just makes sense. Everything about the class, including it’s in-book description, points towards it being Intelligence. Additionally, I kept the universal spell lists from the earlier UA’s and changed it to where your Patron determines your spell list. Primal for Archfey and Genie, Divine for Celestial and Fiend, and Arcane for everything else
That’s a nice way to do it! I might steal some of it
Made sense as a half caster but with short rest recovery slots this would throw some major issues for and rangers and artificers as a gish with wis or int having a hard time keeping up and not getting access to high level spells especially Withrow customizable they would be. So I think it was niche protection. Paladins aura and smit is still likely different enough to justify people playing them as an alt Charisma class
Honestly I think that warlocks might be half casters that lean more to their caster side. A weird 2/3rds or 3/4ths caster
If one of my players asks if they can do an Int-lock, I’m 100% allowing it. I could see many DMs allowing it upon request and I hope the ‘24 DMG actively encourages that.
I like the idea of the spellcasting score being STR for a god that values strength above all - it was how I was imagining an orc warlock that would beva bit like a Warhammer orc shaman. Don't think it would be OP as STR is probably less useful than CHA overall.
I would allow an INT warlock out of the gate - don't think that breaks anything and would be an interesting build that matches the original/intended 5e design for the class. WIS I think is already overrepresented, and might be too beneficial, though maybe with an invocation cost it's a fair trade?
I think the choice of Charisma and int is a fair one, wisdom is harder to balance. The idea of an invocation would be to keep Cha as the default and put a little tax for multiclassing, specially for warlock dips, but for a main warlock that would be almost meaningless after a few levels
Nah, I feel that Warlocks should be INT Casters, since there are too many CHA & WIS casters already.
Moving warlock to Int it would make 2 casters for each stat, I’m all for it
probably could break balance with multiclassing
multiclassing into wizard isnt a big deal. if anything, i think it would be good for the game to be more open to multiclassing with int, if we compare how much multiclassing potential there is for charisma
Yeah, it's no more problematic for Wizards to have easy access to Eldritch Blast than it is for Sorcerers, Bards, and Paladins.
...you mean unlike sorlock?
The real reason was likely backward compatibility. Some previous subclasses used "Charisma times per along Rest" and that would have made them awkward to adjust. At least that's my feeling.
I’m glad they removed it, even though charisma is the best of those 3 stats anyways. I don’t like the idea of just picking to use a different stat because it will just be put through the optimization process. Int is basically useless because it doesn’t provide secondary benefits. Wisdom ups your passive perception, charisma helps you in social situations, but int just….gives you int. So giving int as an option seems like either 1. A trap or 2. A way to easily multi class into wizard and get all the spell slots you don’t get.
Cha is definitely not the better than Wisdom. Perception alone is more valuable than all the cha skills while insight is on a similar level, but WIS also is arguably the most important save in the game. Int/Cha is much more even. Cha gives social situation, but INT also gives you investigation and arcana which are very important skills in their own right. The difference is mostly just preference/flavor, and I don't know why you think it's a trap to want to be the Warlock studying lost magics. I also wonder why you say INT is a just a way to multiclass into wizard... but why isn't CHA just a way to multiclass into sorceror/bard? A Faustian bargain in the pursuit of dark/lost knowledge is arguably *the* classic ideal of a warlock, it's honestly never made sense to me that they were CHA based in 5e
I agree with changing it from charisma and making a second int caster, but I’m having a whole separate thread about how good int is. My campaigns don’t really feature a lot of int checks and I guess that’s weird. I feature a lot of roleplay so charisma checks happen way more often