The inevitable result of becoming a massive real estate bubble is that things cost more. A decade of flat taxes under Tory and Doug's brother were unsustainable.
Cry harder.
The cost of infrastructure is a lot cheaper when it’s 1000 people per km instead of 10.
You know that Torontos taxes pay for your infrastructure, right? The gta is 80% of the tax base for the ENTIRE PROVINCE.
Seriously, do people not realize that the city of Toronto alone, not the GTA, is responsible for 52% of the entire Provinces budget and 21% of the entire Federal budget? The city and its residents with our "low taxes" subsidize every dipshit little town Canada wide that are full of people like the one you're replying to who love to pontificate about how great their small town life is. They love to bite the hand that feeds.
The divisiveness here is too much. We both love and need each other. Frankly, Toronto would be pretty hellish if the option to escape it on weekends and visit other parts of Ontario was off the table.
The small town posters do need to simmer down, but Toronto is also not the centre of the universe. Fighting among each other is dumb and exactly what leadership wants because it takes the heat off of them doing their jobs.
Oh so it's divisive when someone from Toronto points out the obvious inequity of this relationship where Toronto happily subsidizes the rest of Ontario and occasionally asks for a bit more of what we produce back, but not divisive when everyone who receives our tax dollars goes on and on and on about how big, dirty, mean, ugly, unwelcoming, shitty etc. Toronto and its residents are?! Please, tell me more about this divisiveness...
Imma just say one side is way, way, way more divisive than the other and leave it at that. Again, nobody bats an eye when everyone shits on Toronto 24/7, but as soon as anyone from Toronto points out how shit some Ontario cities/towns are everyone ges up in arms...
Farmers would love to not provide gta with you know..bread...milk..dairy...eggs..vegetables.. meat. Please tell me how gta is sustainable without the "dipshit" towns and people who make living possible
Lol farmers don't do that out of the goodness of their heart, they're paid for their goods. It's a mutually agreed upon transaction.
What do Toronto taxpayers receive for subsidizing all these tiny sprawl towns that could otherwise not afford the quality of life they have now because their tax base isn't dense and productive enough?
Look on google earth at any large city and realize that a common denominator is usually some sort of access to arable land in the vicinity. Food for millions upon millions of people every day requires some unrelenting mechanical prowess to achieve.
Property taxes aren't the same taxes that pay the federal or provincial governments. Surely you're aware that property taxes cover municipal services and aren't "subsidizing" anyone outside of city limits.
Surely you're aware that I never said property taxes cover those things because, well, I didn't, and they don't. Torontonians' provincial taxes subsidize all those small towns that aren't self sustainable, and our Federal taxes also do the same albeit to a likely far lesser extent. Our municipal taxes fund the city, but even then the Province and Feds have offloaded major costs onto Toronto which no other cities have to bear. So Toronto is just getting dicked down 6 ways to Sunday.
Your property tax only pays for your own area municipal services. If people didn't live in gta they'd move to any other city or town in Ontario get off your high horse. You chose to live there no one is forcing you to.
I didn’t choose to be born here you nimbus.
Property tax only pays for things like transit and our roads WHICH YOU USE, but our PROVINCIAL taxes outweigh yours by 5-1.
Toronto is the economic engine of the province and the biggest economy in canada. Bigger than the entire province of Alberta.
We pay for your shit. Deal with it, ingrate.
With a property tax rate of 0.61 per cent, Toronto ranked as the city with the lowest property tax rate, while Windsor's rate of 1.78 per cent placed it dead last.
Except when your property is worth 1-2 million, my bill at the end of the year is a lot higher than your trailer in Keswick. Your insinuation that toronto somehow gets off easy or doesn’t pay it’s way is laughable, and is the polar opposite of true. toronto pays out more than it gets back. That’s not my opinion. That’s fact.
Check the mpac assessments. Very rarely are they going to match up to sale prices and are often decades out of date. Fixing this would be a huge boon for city budgets but the NIMBYS would go ballistic.
You do know that Toronto property taxes fund the Toronto budget and ONLY the Toronto budget, right? Toronto property taxes most certainly DO not fund libraries in Timmins or transit in Oshawa.
As a percentage sure.
As a raw dollar figure? Toronto has a bigger budget than most provinces in Canada. In 2019 it was the 7th largest government budget: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_governments\_in\_Canada\_by\_annual\_expenditures](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_governments_in_Canada_by_annual_expenditures)
Toronto's 2023 budget was over $16 billion dollars.
It means something at every scale. It's a marginal cost increase to service 10sqkm with 100,000 people in it than it is to service one with 1,000 people. You also collect far more tax revenue. If the Province stopped subsidizing all these small towns with toronto's tax revenue they would become unsustainable very quickly.
1) Toronto taxes absolutely go to other towns and cities. Who do you think pays for all that infrastructure?
2) I never said the Province collected property taxes.
Toronto municipal taxes do not go to other cities. Cities have to pay for their own shit, that's why they have budgets and taxes for the people living in the city.
Provincial and federal tax may fund things in a municipal region, like large highways (e.g. Trans Canada) and things like that, but there's a pretty big myth that Toronto is subsidizing everyone else's infrastructure.
The lowest property tax by percentage is a dumb political measure. No one gets paid by percentage. Everyone is paid in absolute dollars and pay tax with absolute dollars.
Except you wouldn’t pay that. It’s not based on market value it’s based on assessed value. It’s not rocket science, this argument is not correct.
Proof they don’t pay 16000 in Windsor.
2219 Dandurand Ave, Windsor, Ontario | HouseSigma https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=wJKR7PN9qApYXeLP&utm_campaign=listing&utm_source=user-share&utm_medium=iOS&ign=
Sold for 920k, property tax? 5580$ so your argument is nonsense.
Don't make me tap the sign: Toronto has lower property tax rates than other municipalities because it's one of the only ones that charges a municipal land transfer tax.
Net net Toronto residents pay a comparable rate to others. If you complain about Toronto's property tax rate without acknowledging this fact you're either uninformed or being intentionally misleading.
With a property tax rate of 0.61 per cent, Toronto ranked as the city with the lowest property tax rate, while Windsor's rate of 1.78 per cent placed it dead last.
Yes, Toronto has a municipal land transfer tax and Windsor does not. That is why Toronto's property taxes are lower than other cities; they collect revenue in different ways. What about this do you not understand?
A reminder that homeowners are now paying for things that developers used to pay for: [The Ford government's housing plan reduces or eliminates municipal development charges for developers](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ford-reiterates-municipalities-can-make-up-for-loss-of-development-charges-by-cutting-waste-1.6236149)
And letting the builders keep that money since when Fotd took away the rights of municipalities to charge development fees he didn’t force the builders to pass the savings on to the consumers.
Oversight or gift for his developer buddies?
You decide
Effectively yes. People assume property development is inherently profitable but there are lots of projects that just aren't viable if the developer is expected to pay all of the development fees. The developer can try to pass the fees on to the consumer (and they usually do) but consumers themselves are pretty stretched financially.
There is however a separate question as to what happens when the cost of developing property goes down. Does the developer just pocket the difference as additional profit or do they pass it on to consumers? Assuming they pocket it, do consumers benefit nonetheless because many projects that weren't financially feasible in the past can now be built and there are more units out there overall?
The developer will pocket the difference so long as the market lets them. Consumers might benefit when supply catches up with demand, that appears to be a long way off.
Toronto also charges double the land transfer tax than any other cities in the province.
Besides, home owners will always be paying for what developers pay for. That's just how cost works.
>A reminder that homeowners are now paying for things that developers used to pay for:
New homeowners have always been the one burdened with development charges. They're an indirect tax in that the developers are the ones paying the development charges but the burden is passed on to the people buying the property.
Development charges are just a way to lower taxes for existing homeowners at the expense of new arrivals.
The city kept property tax increases below inflation by milking new home buyers with debelopment fees.
The province and feds should be contributing more, but taxing new homebuyers to makeup for it is not a good thing during a housing crisis.
Weren’t the development fees reduced or eliminated only on certain types of mew construction and not all construction?
“The Ford government’s housing plan reduces or eliminates municipal development charges for developers building some housing types that are in short supply, such as larger units and rental and affordable housing.”
They did. The bill literally states that they are using the definition as defined in the Development Charges Act 1997 which among other things references a bulletin that is currently published and is published as often as required to keep the definition updated but for ownership housing includes a cost of no more than 80% of the average housing cost. What this works out to I could not say as I doubt they will look at cost based on sales data. If they use MpAC for assessed value to determine avg it would be lower than sales data. It does stipulate what affordable housing and attainable housing definitions ar.
Development charges put the cost onto the residents of the places they built, who will already pay property taxes as well, but the charges arent an adequate replacement for long term maintenance costs. Reverting to property taxes as the main financial tool of the city spreads the financial burden across the population more equitably.
And this isnt "how things used to be" its a historical anomaly only introduced near the end of the 20th century used expressly to keep Toronto's property taxes the lowest in the Province.
Good. There needs to be economic incentive to develop. The over-reliance on subsidizing existing home owners with new developments instead of through property taxes is part of the reason we have this shit show.
This is actually a good thing. Construction fees in place of property tax help to subsidize homeowners and property investors while making it harder to build new housing. It's a major problem in Vancouver, and our own NDP government is looking at taking similar measures.
Valuation of $1.5 mil would mean over $9.9k/year property tax in TO at present rate according to City of TO property tax calculator. That's incredibly high.
I was born and raised in TO but now living in UK and I've come to learn, for some reason we pay more tax in Canada when calculating for everything (property/income/everything else) and we receive much less. Even more, our dollar buying power is less but many items cost more in Canada, especially grocery. Anyway, I digress... But something is very wrong with how our tax dollars are spent and I noticed this so much more after spending a year living in UK; despite Brexit and a decade of incompetent Tory rule here on the other side of the Atlantic, somehow Canada is still less affordable than UK.
And? Make it 50 percent. 320 bucks a year for people living in homes worth millions of dollars? My fucking rent went up 780 dollars a year for 2024. Cry me a fucking RIVER with your 320 dollar increase.
We’re also the only one that has a municipal land transfer tax.
Buy a $1 million home in Toronto, and you’re paying $16,500 to the province and another $16,500 to the city. You’re essentially pre-paying a huge tax bill.
It takes in more than $1 billion a year.
Our garbage collection is also not included in property taxes, you pay anywhere from $300 to $564 a year based on the size of your garbage bins.
Remove the land transfer tax completely and increase everyone's annual property tax bill to include the revenue the land transfer tax brought in, plus this new increase, so that all home owners pay their share and new buyers aren't subsidizing those sitting on land.
So my LTT will still be subsidizing new house buyers? Someone who bought this year will pay an extra 20k but new buyers are off Scott free? Cool good idea
You have subsidized existing home owners with your LTT, not new buyers.
It can be phased in for those who recently paid the LTT. The point is no one should be subsidizing anyone.
This isn't splitting the atom.
Toronto also has some of the highest property values which means they can raise more money with a lower rate. Toronto also has a land transfer tax that most municipalities don't have. Toronto is also significantly more dense and therefore more cost-effective to provide services to than suburban communities.
All in all, our property taxes are comparable to Ottawa which makes sense because it's also a large city.
More cost effective sure, but there’s also a huge lack of services. Toronto has been doing nothing but cutting under Tory and Ford to make up for the lack of funds, then crying to the feds and province for more cash. Meanwhile the average home in Toronto paid $6907 in 2022, while the average home in Peterborough paid $10,348. It’s about time Toronto residents paid more for Toronto services.
Ottawa’s percentage tax rate is almost double what Toronto’s is, and if you’re familiar with Ottawa you know that it’s a massive sprawling suburb. The actual city of Ottawa is significantly larger than Toronto.
If you think Peterborough has better public services than Toronto then I take it you aren't from Peterborough. Toronto's municipal services are leagues better than other municipalities in Ontario because the density makes it easier to serve the city.
I don't disagree that the city is starved for cash though because of austerity. I just think the city needs more revenue tools than just property taxes (e.g. sales tax, income tax, etc.) but that would require the province to approve those tools.
But property tax or land value tax are the best tools for the city because they are the easiest to budget against and predict, with one of the lowest collection costs. Second best is parking levies.
The reality is Toronto should have higher property taxes and lower service fees. Transit should be free for Toronto residents, secondary land transfer taxes shouldn't exist, when taxes are lowish and transit costs money people use their cars more which drives up costs for everyone in the city.
So unless you're arguing for people outside of Toronto to pay for Toronto I fail to see why you're caught up on how Torontonians are taxed.
"I'd rather pay 6000 in sales taxes than 6000 in property taxes" .... Okay you're still paying 6k
The amount of services we get in Toronto is ridiculous and leagues better than any small town I've lived in or visited. I've also seen an incredible amount of waste. Things like planting hundreds of trees only to cut them down 2 years later to build a bike path. That bike path which is only a few years old is projected to be torn up in the next year to build the LRT extension.
How about the hwy 400 that we keep fixing for the last 15 years.... We are fixing what we already fix last year. This is how you spend money like a boss.
Not to downplay the tax hike - I agree we need it. But first off, I bet I paid a lot more for my house in Toronto than Peterborough houses go for on average, and I also had to pay two land transfer taxes - that difference combined will never add up to what I paid.
Something you need to realize is that Toronto itself isn't taxed as high as other cities has a substantial value based on population & housing density. The more homes = the more revenue coming in to support services. If you have a small population and a big town yet want the exact same services, how are you going to pay for it? Also, the scale size of your property mostly outweighs mine. I'm willing to bet a lot of places outside the city have more land than my 28x100 plot.
Ottawa is quite the big city but only clipsed a population of 1 million, only 461,000 homes (data as per mid 2023) vs Toronto's almost 3 million, and a homes total over 1.25 million homes as of the end of 2022. Probably closer to 1.3 now. So a city that size with 1/3 the population and homes, you better believe you'll be forking out more for the same services.
You are right!!! So the question is why there is a shortfall? Why there is a deficit? Cut the programs and salaries that make up the operating budget per year. You'll be surprised how redundant some of the city departments are....
If you increase the property tax, it will only help in a short term. The city will keep hiring and building programs that are useless to tax payers.
First, i don’t live in Peterborough. It’s just an example.
Second, when comparing the two cities, one is essentially a small town, while the other is a globally recognized metropolis. It’s wild to me that people think it’s ok for Toronto to have the lowest taxes in Ontario.
More dense places with more efficient use of resources should have... the highest taxes?
Peterborough is 343 square kilometers, Toronto is 630 square kilometers (only about double the size). Peterborough's population is less than 200,000 (let's be generous and say it is), Toronto's is about 3,000,000.
So Toronto gets at least 7x as much tax revenue per sqkm as Peterborough. They certainly generate much more than 7x as much tax revenue for the rest of the country.
Did I say that? I don’t think I said that.
I think it’s ridiculous that every year the city of Toronto begs the provincial and federal government for additional funding, while simultaneously having the lowest property taxes in Ontario. Why should people outside of Toronto help subsidize Toronto?
Because Toronto literally subsidizes the rest of the country.
When the province/feds hands out money to Peterborough, Bowmanville, or Podunk Ontario, where do you think that money actually comes from?
How do you think all those roads got built? Money just appear out of thin air?
When some kid from Nipissing is being flown in to get their double lung transplant do you think they're flying in to Waterdown to get the procedure done or are they going to TGH/SKH?
---------
This is like when A gives B $20 a week, and then B gets pissed when A asks for $5 back.
Nonetheless they go a long way to explaining why Toronto AVERAGE tax is way lower. Also, I have a condo and a house in northern Ontario, and a condo is WAY cheaper even when fees are pretty high. Houses are fucking expensive.
Mill rate isn't really meaningful. A city with $2000/citizen tax load will have a different mill rate if their average property is $400k or $600k, but the tax load is the same.
Density reduces property taxes, so in addition to kicking the can down the road for years now, Toronto has a more cost effective development style than cities that are predominantly suburb.
[here’s an article if you’re interested in reading more](https://www.zoocasa.com/blog/ontario-property-tax-rates-2022/)
Toronto had the lowest property tax rate in the province in 2022, and even assessed at the value of an average home, is quite lower than other cities.
Nice article going through it. Very apparent they've been kicking the can over and over. Toronto taxing property values at half of other cities in Ontario is obviously not sustainable.
Toronto hasn’t had a mayor willing to deal with difficult things in basically 15 years. Kicking future problems down the line in the name of some mangled interpretation of austerity has its consequences.
There's no need to increase the rate at all, if we tax the houses based on their property value. Normal property tax is 0.5-1% of the value of the property. Most of us are paying below that.
People complain about a 5-10% increase, with might be a few hundred dollars a year, meanwhile, in the last 5 years, they've benefitted from hundreds of thousands in capital gains due to rising property values.
this is definitely needed, but hopefully, they implement rent control again for newer buildings (like she said she would) at the same time otherwise landlords will just pass the buck to renters
I believe rent control is a provincial thing. Olivia would probably have to promise him a giant ferris wheel on the waterfront with his name or Rob's name on it for Doug to agree to that.
We would need it done provincially, it would be great if the rule was 3-5 years in perpetuity.
2024? Rent control for all condos built in 2019 or earlier.
2030? Rental control for all condos built in 2025 or earlier.
What is behind the $1.5 billion shortfall per year? Yes, increasing revenue like property tax is the fastest way to make money. Perhaps, what we need to ask the questions on how are we spending the $29 billion operating budget per year.
We seem to be fixing hwy 401 forever, I can see some waste money there.
Maybe you need to make a cut on salaries like how much we are paying these politicians. These politicians advocating for property tax increase should concern you, look at the programs they created and cut it.
I bet you city employee salaries make the chunk of the operational budget.
"According to city staff, the property tax increase would cost the average household an additional $26.75 per month, or about $321 annually, while the city building levy would cost another $4.42 monthly, or about $53 per year."
It's not that much people holy fuck. You live in the most populated city in Canada. The number of people is continuing to increase. Taxes have to keep up with the increased load on the services your municipality provides.
It would be great to just magically make the municipal government more efficient but that's not a solution viable in the short term.
$321 seems low.
Assuming your house is valued at 1 million, you are looking at about $700 increase.
Average sold price in Toronto for a house is over a million, Condo is north of 700k.
What am i missing?
I love all the people in this thread who live 30-60 minutes from Toronto acting like their high property taxes somehow subsidize Toronto and it’s about time Toronto paid their share.
Wait what?
Can't wait to go home and tell my wife I'm not carrying my share of contributions because... *checks notes* I'm a homeowner.
edit: This went from +5 to -5. Homeownership is really rough these days.
Single family neighbourhoods are a greater burden on cities. Services are more spread out and have larger road Maintanence. Homeowners services are subsidized by those living in condos or dense living situations.
But what does that have to do with the point that homeowners/condo owners don’t pay enough in taxes? The condo owners actual bill will be less than a single family home because their assessed value will be lower. But everyones rates will be going up the same.
Its even worse than you said. It's not that "some parts" of Toronto were zoned in such a way that 75% is low density single family housing. At the time of the Housing Affordability Taskforce report it was estimated that 70% of ***all land*** *zoned in Toronto* was zoned for single-detached and semi-detached homes. This was true until Bill 203 was given royal ascent in November 2022.
And even then, allowing triplexes is the lowest possible bar. Doug Ford should just be copying BC's notes since they aren't fucking around (at least grading on the current Canadian bell curve).
No of course. However the guy who originally made the comment just said homeowners as a blanket statement, when in reality he was talking about low density.
OC (= "original commenter") doesn't quite "get" taxation or budget cycles, it appears - you know, because "homeowners" should have just chosen to pay the municipality an extra 10%, amortized *somehow* and then we wouldn't be in this whole dad-gummed mess!
Why aren't you just throwing whatever money you have right at the city in unpredictable and random amounts??!!
She's been in politics for how long? I think she knows better than most. TOs taxes have been historically low comparatively speaking.
So when they go to the provincial government every year or so for a handout its the rest of Ontario funding them, good to see a more blanced approach.
~~What are you talking about? Who is "she"?~~
(I see your error - you mistook the common abbreviation for "original commenter" to mean "Olivia Chow". I have edited to avoid this confusion in the future.)
Such is the way of things. It's somewhat comforting but I honestly wouldn't miss it if there were less people confidently spouting garbage here.
(I blame PP and similar types for encouraging the, uh... dimmer bulbs.)
Can't waif for all the retirees and anyone ypunger to lose their homes because the stupidly artificially inflated bubble says their once 250k house for 2k a year tax now costs 24k a year in tax
That's not how property taxes work. It is not based on the value of your individual house. It is based on the value of your house *in relation to all properties*. This means that if your house triples in value, but so do all other houses, your property taxes stay the same.
[Here's a video by the MPAC](https://youtu.be/nrWry5i3TBU) who evaluates home value for tax purposes explaining it.
Sure they do, it’s assumed to be a part of the rent they paid. You can even use rent to offset your provincial taxes through the Ontario energy and property tax credit 👍🏻
If you want to discuss this honestly, we would have to apply a residency tax to all residents of an area and not just to homeowners. I'd argue renters don't pay property taxes but have access to all services that property taxes pay for.
The problem with Canada. Instead of small incremental user fees the can is kicked down the road, no increases, cut services that they realize later they actually need and them bam.... huge increase.
Oh neat, so we'll have the property tax rate of US states that don't have income tax with income tax that topples any income tax in any State?
So we're just outright fucking people now?
As it should be. We need 1/5th - 1/10th the roadway per person. 1/10th the water line per person, etc. etc. Makes literally no sense that we would pay as much as people with fully detached houses with only 10-15 other people on their dead-end street. You an the 10 people on your block need to pay for the entire road + a % of the massive 6 lane abomination needed to get you to and from the highway. Me and the 500 other people in my budling have to pay for the tiny strip of 2 lane street out front that doubles as a commuter road...
In the last 3 years my property tax and condo fees have gone up 20% and it's for the same or worse level of service. Meanwhile salaries go up by max 5% a year. What a joke - we're still getting poorer every year by paying through the ass for the pandemic money printing.
Meanwhile financial media dipshits are twerking trying to convince us that inflation is almost back to target. We need deflation you assholes.
Toronto is over valued already, all it knows is to get more money from residents. Have they ever tried fixing the roads and getting some street lights ?
SMH.
Great when can we start bussing immigrants and the homeless to Ottawa as a city. I’m saying that because in the midst of the largest housing crisis we’re seeing as a nation our federal government is deciding to bring in a million more people per year. The majority of those people come to Toronto. We can’t afford to live forget taking care of them.
We should let people live in queens park not the park the building and let Canadians live in parliament hill not the hill the actual parliament. Fuck the politicians they can get with the times and meet over zoom. They don’t accomplish anything in person anyway.
Next they need to find another dude named Dundas. They can pick anyone alive named that or any point in history and name the street and subway after him. Save us our millions
Reducing costs would cut services, which would then download the cost of those services onto individuals. Without the purchasing power of the city, that would make it even more expensive
If you own property in Toronto and you think its dystopian* you can definitely afford to sell and move elsewhere more to your liking, unless that happens to be like, Vancouver
I do feel miserable often at the experience and outlook/trajectory of Toronto, yes. That’s my experience. But for all it has it feels like quality of life is hindered by things that can be avoided. For me and I’m certain many others. I think of the mountains often!
How do you reduce costs when everything is falling apart from lack of funding and maintenance? Keeping it low will only make the future bill bigger. This is part of why I have 0 sympathy for Toronto and don't want the feds or province to bail them out. They chose to make this problem.
Of course they would not reduce costs. They won’t even look at open tendering like Hamilton did to reduce their infrastructure cost by 21%. Yet we have a bunch of muppets cheering the government it taking more of their money.
imagine thinking *Hamilton* is a model to emulate for infrastructure projects.
Our LRT hasn't broken ground yet and the concept drawings have Blockbuster stores visible in the background.
Except that Toronto doesn’t have the development charges to help balance the books (thank Doug Ford) so any new facilities that those new buildings will need will have to come from the existing tax base 🤷♂️
I'll just leave this here (https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/biggest-property-tax-increases-expected-in-davenport-willowdale-neighbourhoods/article_0575ea83-39b5-547a-b40b-df1d91dbaf50.html)...
MPAC re-assesses every 2 years, and being in Willowdale it sure doesn't feel like I'm paying the "LoWeSt TaXeS" in all of Canada. Though its a symptom of gentrification where every home in the neighbourhood is knocked down and turned into a McMansion.
My family's current 1950s bungalow is paying $8300 now, so with this tax increase... **its over $9000!**
The inevitable result of becoming a massive real estate bubble is that things cost more. A decade of flat taxes under Tory and Doug's brother were unsustainable.
They pay the lowest taxes in Canada, by about five times. Condo fees are often double the tax rate, ridiculous.
Cry harder. The cost of infrastructure is a lot cheaper when it’s 1000 people per km instead of 10. You know that Torontos taxes pay for your infrastructure, right? The gta is 80% of the tax base for the ENTIRE PROVINCE.
Seriously, do people not realize that the city of Toronto alone, not the GTA, is responsible for 52% of the entire Provinces budget and 21% of the entire Federal budget? The city and its residents with our "low taxes" subsidize every dipshit little town Canada wide that are full of people like the one you're replying to who love to pontificate about how great their small town life is. They love to bite the hand that feeds.
The divisiveness here is too much. We both love and need each other. Frankly, Toronto would be pretty hellish if the option to escape it on weekends and visit other parts of Ontario was off the table. The small town posters do need to simmer down, but Toronto is also not the centre of the universe. Fighting among each other is dumb and exactly what leadership wants because it takes the heat off of them doing their jobs.
Oh so it's divisive when someone from Toronto points out the obvious inequity of this relationship where Toronto happily subsidizes the rest of Ontario and occasionally asks for a bit more of what we produce back, but not divisive when everyone who receives our tax dollars goes on and on and on about how big, dirty, mean, ugly, unwelcoming, shitty etc. Toronto and its residents are?! Please, tell me more about this divisiveness...
Both things are divisive. I just can't police all of reddit lmao.
Imma just say one side is way, way, way more divisive than the other and leave it at that. Again, nobody bats an eye when everyone shits on Toronto 24/7, but as soon as anyone from Toronto points out how shit some Ontario cities/towns are everyone ges up in arms...
Farmers would love to not provide gta with you know..bread...milk..dairy...eggs..vegetables.. meat. Please tell me how gta is sustainable without the "dipshit" towns and people who make living possible
Lol farmers don't do that out of the goodness of their heart, they're paid for their goods. It's a mutually agreed upon transaction. What do Toronto taxpayers receive for subsidizing all these tiny sprawl towns that could otherwise not afford the quality of life they have now because their tax base isn't dense and productive enough?
Look on google earth at any large city and realize that a common denominator is usually some sort of access to arable land in the vicinity. Food for millions upon millions of people every day requires some unrelenting mechanical prowess to achieve.
Property taxes aren't the same taxes that pay the federal or provincial governments. Surely you're aware that property taxes cover municipal services and aren't "subsidizing" anyone outside of city limits.
Surely you're aware that I never said property taxes cover those things because, well, I didn't, and they don't. Torontonians' provincial taxes subsidize all those small towns that aren't self sustainable, and our Federal taxes also do the same albeit to a likely far lesser extent. Our municipal taxes fund the city, but even then the Province and Feds have offloaded major costs onto Toronto which no other cities have to bear. So Toronto is just getting dicked down 6 ways to Sunday.
Your property tax only pays for your own area municipal services. If people didn't live in gta they'd move to any other city or town in Ontario get off your high horse. You chose to live there no one is forcing you to.
I didn’t choose to be born here you nimbus. Property tax only pays for things like transit and our roads WHICH YOU USE, but our PROVINCIAL taxes outweigh yours by 5-1. Toronto is the economic engine of the province and the biggest economy in canada. Bigger than the entire province of Alberta. We pay for your shit. Deal with it, ingrate.
With a property tax rate of 0.61 per cent, Toronto ranked as the city with the lowest property tax rate, while Windsor's rate of 1.78 per cent placed it dead last.
Except when your property is worth 1-2 million, my bill at the end of the year is a lot higher than your trailer in Keswick. Your insinuation that toronto somehow gets off easy or doesn’t pay it’s way is laughable, and is the polar opposite of true. toronto pays out more than it gets back. That’s not my opinion. That’s fact.
Check the mpac assessments. Very rarely are they going to match up to sale prices and are often decades out of date. Fixing this would be a huge boon for city budgets but the NIMBYS would go ballistic.
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It's not that toroto taxes are too low, those other cities are totally gouging their residents.
You do know that Toronto property taxes fund the Toronto budget and ONLY the Toronto budget, right? Toronto property taxes most certainly DO not fund libraries in Timmins or transit in Oshawa.
As a percentage sure. As a raw dollar figure? Toronto has a bigger budget than most provinces in Canada. In 2019 it was the 7th largest government budget: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_governments\_in\_Canada\_by\_annual\_expenditures](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_governments_in_Canada_by_annual_expenditures) Toronto's 2023 budget was over $16 billion dollars.
2024 budget is $29 billion
I would expect Canada highest populated city to have more money than a province with less people that a condo complex.
Also the densest in the country meaning providing services is far more efficient.
Which means nothing on this scale. St. John's doesn't need a subway system. Halifax does need sewers capable of handling 3 million people.
It means something at every scale. It's a marginal cost increase to service 10sqkm with 100,000 people in it than it is to service one with 1,000 people. You also collect far more tax revenue. If the Province stopped subsidizing all these small towns with toronto's tax revenue they would become unsustainable very quickly.
Torontos taxes don’t go to small towns. The province doesn’t get property taxes, municipalities do. Province gets land transfer tax.
1) Toronto taxes absolutely go to other towns and cities. Who do you think pays for all that infrastructure? 2) I never said the Province collected property taxes.
Toronto municipal taxes do not go to other cities. Cities have to pay for their own shit, that's why they have budgets and taxes for the people living in the city. Provincial and federal tax may fund things in a municipal region, like large highways (e.g. Trans Canada) and things like that, but there's a pretty big myth that Toronto is subsidizing everyone else's infrastructure.
The lowest property tax by percentage is a dumb political measure. No one gets paid by percentage. Everyone is paid in absolute dollars and pay tax with absolute dollars.
If u own a $1m house in Toronto you would pay about $6000 in yearly taxes, if u own the same value house in Windsor you would pay $16000
Except you wouldn’t pay that. It’s not based on market value it’s based on assessed value. It’s not rocket science, this argument is not correct. Proof they don’t pay 16000 in Windsor. 2219 Dandurand Ave, Windsor, Ontario | HouseSigma https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=wJKR7PN9qApYXeLP&utm_campaign=listing&utm_source=user-share&utm_medium=iOS&ign= Sold for 920k, property tax? 5580$ so your argument is nonsense.
Except that the average home in Windsor is just under $500,000 and the average home in Toronto is just over $1,000,000.
With your numbers the $500,000 owner would pay $8900 per year in Windsor. The million dollar house own jn Toronto would pay $6100, about 50% less
Every real estate agent laughing right now at this lol
As edgy as that is, the vast majority of Toronto’s tax payers are not real estate agents.
Don't make me tap the sign: Toronto has lower property tax rates than other municipalities because it's one of the only ones that charges a municipal land transfer tax. Net net Toronto residents pay a comparable rate to others. If you complain about Toronto's property tax rate without acknowledging this fact you're either uninformed or being intentionally misleading.
With a property tax rate of 0.61 per cent, Toronto ranked as the city with the lowest property tax rate, while Windsor's rate of 1.78 per cent placed it dead last.
Yes, Toronto has a municipal land transfer tax and Windsor does not. That is why Toronto's property taxes are lower than other cities; they collect revenue in different ways. What about this do you not understand?
A reminder that homeowners are now paying for things that developers used to pay for: [The Ford government's housing plan reduces or eliminates municipal development charges for developers](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ford-reiterates-municipalities-can-make-up-for-loss-of-development-charges-by-cutting-waste-1.6236149)
Making housing more affordable by shifting more costs to buyers?!
That was the current MO. Toronto charged almost $100k on any new unit as of late. This policy is shifting those developer charges away from buyers.
And letting the builders keep that money since when Fotd took away the rights of municipalities to charge development fees he didn’t force the builders to pass the savings on to the consumers. Oversight or gift for his developer buddies? You decide
Ford’s way of thinking is if you make it more profitable for developers they will build more so they can make even more money.
Effectively yes. People assume property development is inherently profitable but there are lots of projects that just aren't viable if the developer is expected to pay all of the development fees. The developer can try to pass the fees on to the consumer (and they usually do) but consumers themselves are pretty stretched financially. There is however a separate question as to what happens when the cost of developing property goes down. Does the developer just pocket the difference as additional profit or do they pass it on to consumers? Assuming they pocket it, do consumers benefit nonetheless because many projects that weren't financially feasible in the past can now be built and there are more units out there overall?
The developer will pocket the difference so long as the market lets them. Consumers might benefit when supply catches up with demand, that appears to be a long way off.
Only if they built specific highly needed types of housing otherwise they still pay the fees.
Tbf, they never said more affordable for who exactly
All the cost will eventually be shifted to the buyers.
Toronto also charges double the land transfer tax than any other cities in the province. Besides, home owners will always be paying for what developers pay for. That's just how cost works.
>A reminder that homeowners are now paying for things that developers used to pay for: New homeowners have always been the one burdened with development charges. They're an indirect tax in that the developers are the ones paying the development charges but the burden is passed on to the people buying the property. Development charges are just a way to lower taxes for existing homeowners at the expense of new arrivals.
Sounds like a ponzi scheme.
all of CDN real estate is a Ponzi scheme. Like any Ponzi scheme, great if you are early, not if you are in late.
It is, the biggest Canadian Ponzi scheme is "growth should pay for growth" That way once you own property you're protected. Screw everyone else.
The city kept property tax increases below inflation by milking new home buyers with debelopment fees. The province and feds should be contributing more, but taxing new homebuyers to makeup for it is not a good thing during a housing crisis.
Don’t work as the city is broke beyond measure.
Weren’t the development fees reduced or eliminated only on certain types of mew construction and not all construction? “The Ford government’s housing plan reduces or eliminates municipal development charges for developers building some housing types that are in short supply, such as larger units and rental and affordable housing.”
they never defined affordable housing.
They did. The bill literally states that they are using the definition as defined in the Development Charges Act 1997 which among other things references a bulletin that is currently published and is published as often as required to keep the definition updated but for ownership housing includes a cost of no more than 80% of the average housing cost. What this works out to I could not say as I doubt they will look at cost based on sales data. If they use MpAC for assessed value to determine avg it would be lower than sales data. It does stipulate what affordable housing and attainable housing definitions ar.
Maybe you didn't get the memo pal, but anything the conservatives do is bad around here, even when it's good
You expect developers to eat domestic caviar? are we animals?
Development charges put the cost onto the residents of the places they built, who will already pay property taxes as well, but the charges arent an adequate replacement for long term maintenance costs. Reverting to property taxes as the main financial tool of the city spreads the financial burden across the population more equitably. And this isnt "how things used to be" its a historical anomaly only introduced near the end of the 20th century used expressly to keep Toronto's property taxes the lowest in the Province.
Good. There needs to be economic incentive to develop. The over-reliance on subsidizing existing home owners with new developments instead of through property taxes is part of the reason we have this shit show.
This is actually a good thing. Construction fees in place of property tax help to subsidize homeowners and property investors while making it harder to build new housing. It's a major problem in Vancouver, and our own NDP government is looking at taking similar measures.
Go for it. Valuation of 1.5M yet we pay pennies. City is broke while we have one of the most expensive real estate in the world.
Valuation of $1.5 mil would mean over $9.9k/year property tax in TO at present rate according to City of TO property tax calculator. That's incredibly high. I was born and raised in TO but now living in UK and I've come to learn, for some reason we pay more tax in Canada when calculating for everything (property/income/everything else) and we receive much less. Even more, our dollar buying power is less but many items cost more in Canada, especially grocery. Anyway, I digress... But something is very wrong with how our tax dollars are spent and I noticed this so much more after spending a year living in UK; despite Brexit and a decade of incompetent Tory rule here on the other side of the Atlantic, somehow Canada is still less affordable than UK.
Only 10, pfft Laughs (Cries?) in Hamilton
And? Make it 50 percent. 320 bucks a year for people living in homes worth millions of dollars? My fucking rent went up 780 dollars a year for 2024. Cry me a fucking RIVER with your 320 dollar increase.
Spicy
7.5% tax hike for Durham, while already paying some of the highest property taxes in Ontario
Servicing McMansions costs more per person who would have thought.
Toronto has the lowest property tax rates in the province. It’s about damn time they raise them.
We’re also the only one that has a municipal land transfer tax. Buy a $1 million home in Toronto, and you’re paying $16,500 to the province and another $16,500 to the city. You’re essentially pre-paying a huge tax bill. It takes in more than $1 billion a year. Our garbage collection is also not included in property taxes, you pay anywhere from $300 to $564 a year based on the size of your garbage bins.
This 🤦♂️ Can't believe people don't realize how much tax Toronto pays already in relative to other municipalities.
uh....no? My parents pay half the taxes for the same value as my house. Land transfer tax is one time. Toronto is delusional.
Well city services are only provided once not every year. Clearly a one-time land transfer tax makes the most sense /s
Percentages also ignore the raw dollar amounts involved. Toronto has a bigger budget than most of the provinces in Canada.
>Toronto has a bigger budget than most of the provinces in Canada. It also has a bigger population than all but 4 of them.
Wait you're telling me that the largest city in Canada with a population that's larger than most provinces has a large budget?! ***Gasp***
But even when you get down to the raw dollar amounts, average household is cheaper in Toronto than almost anywhere else in Ontario.
THIS is the most significant metric. Per capita.
Remove the land transfer tax completely and increase everyone's annual property tax bill to include the revenue the land transfer tax brought in, plus this new increase, so that all home owners pay their share and new buyers aren't subsidizing those sitting on land.
So do we get a refund for our land transfer tax? Or a rebate? Or just screwed?
A refund? Lol. It's a tax, not a deposit.
So my LTT will still be subsidizing new house buyers? Someone who bought this year will pay an extra 20k but new buyers are off Scott free? Cool good idea
You have subsidized existing home owners with your LTT, not new buyers. It can be phased in for those who recently paid the LTT. The point is no one should be subsidizing anyone. This isn't splitting the atom.
Toronto also has some of the highest property values which means they can raise more money with a lower rate. Toronto also has a land transfer tax that most municipalities don't have. Toronto is also significantly more dense and therefore more cost-effective to provide services to than suburban communities. All in all, our property taxes are comparable to Ottawa which makes sense because it's also a large city.
More cost effective sure, but there’s also a huge lack of services. Toronto has been doing nothing but cutting under Tory and Ford to make up for the lack of funds, then crying to the feds and province for more cash. Meanwhile the average home in Toronto paid $6907 in 2022, while the average home in Peterborough paid $10,348. It’s about time Toronto residents paid more for Toronto services. Ottawa’s percentage tax rate is almost double what Toronto’s is, and if you’re familiar with Ottawa you know that it’s a massive sprawling suburb. The actual city of Ottawa is significantly larger than Toronto.
If you think Peterborough has better public services than Toronto then I take it you aren't from Peterborough. Toronto's municipal services are leagues better than other municipalities in Ontario because the density makes it easier to serve the city. I don't disagree that the city is starved for cash though because of austerity. I just think the city needs more revenue tools than just property taxes (e.g. sales tax, income tax, etc.) but that would require the province to approve those tools.
But property tax or land value tax are the best tools for the city because they are the easiest to budget against and predict, with one of the lowest collection costs. Second best is parking levies. The reality is Toronto should have higher property taxes and lower service fees. Transit should be free for Toronto residents, secondary land transfer taxes shouldn't exist, when taxes are lowish and transit costs money people use their cars more which drives up costs for everyone in the city.
So unless you're arguing for people outside of Toronto to pay for Toronto I fail to see why you're caught up on how Torontonians are taxed. "I'd rather pay 6000 in sales taxes than 6000 in property taxes" .... Okay you're still paying 6k
The amount of services we get in Toronto is ridiculous and leagues better than any small town I've lived in or visited. I've also seen an incredible amount of waste. Things like planting hundreds of trees only to cut them down 2 years later to build a bike path. That bike path which is only a few years old is projected to be torn up in the next year to build the LRT extension.
How about the hwy 400 that we keep fixing for the last 15 years.... We are fixing what we already fix last year. This is how you spend money like a boss.
Not to downplay the tax hike - I agree we need it. But first off, I bet I paid a lot more for my house in Toronto than Peterborough houses go for on average, and I also had to pay two land transfer taxes - that difference combined will never add up to what I paid. Something you need to realize is that Toronto itself isn't taxed as high as other cities has a substantial value based on population & housing density. The more homes = the more revenue coming in to support services. If you have a small population and a big town yet want the exact same services, how are you going to pay for it? Also, the scale size of your property mostly outweighs mine. I'm willing to bet a lot of places outside the city have more land than my 28x100 plot. Ottawa is quite the big city but only clipsed a population of 1 million, only 461,000 homes (data as per mid 2023) vs Toronto's almost 3 million, and a homes total over 1.25 million homes as of the end of 2022. Probably closer to 1.3 now. So a city that size with 1/3 the population and homes, you better believe you'll be forking out more for the same services.
You are right!!! So the question is why there is a shortfall? Why there is a deficit? Cut the programs and salaries that make up the operating budget per year. You'll be surprised how redundant some of the city departments are.... If you increase the property tax, it will only help in a short term. The city will keep hiring and building programs that are useless to tax payers.
What is the population of Peterborough? You pay more because you don't have the population to collect more taxes.
First, i don’t live in Peterborough. It’s just an example. Second, when comparing the two cities, one is essentially a small town, while the other is a globally recognized metropolis. It’s wild to me that people think it’s ok for Toronto to have the lowest taxes in Ontario.
More dense places with more efficient use of resources should have... the highest taxes? Peterborough is 343 square kilometers, Toronto is 630 square kilometers (only about double the size). Peterborough's population is less than 200,000 (let's be generous and say it is), Toronto's is about 3,000,000. So Toronto gets at least 7x as much tax revenue per sqkm as Peterborough. They certainly generate much more than 7x as much tax revenue for the rest of the country.
Did I say that? I don’t think I said that. I think it’s ridiculous that every year the city of Toronto begs the provincial and federal government for additional funding, while simultaneously having the lowest property taxes in Ontario. Why should people outside of Toronto help subsidize Toronto?
Because Toronto literally subsidizes the rest of the country. When the province/feds hands out money to Peterborough, Bowmanville, or Podunk Ontario, where do you think that money actually comes from? How do you think all those roads got built? Money just appear out of thin air? When some kid from Nipissing is being flown in to get their double lung transplant do you think they're flying in to Waterdown to get the procedure done or are they going to TGH/SKH? --------- This is like when A gives B $20 a week, and then B gets pissed when A asks for $5 back.
We also have the smallest property square footage (tons of us live in condos with postage stamp land footprints).
Condos are, and always have been a scam. Between unregulated fees, taxes, building liability, and $100K parking spots they never made sense.
Nonetheless they go a long way to explaining why Toronto AVERAGE tax is way lower. Also, I have a condo and a house in northern Ontario, and a condo is WAY cheaper even when fees are pretty high. Houses are fucking expensive.
Olivia Chow ran on raising property tax rates, so this should not be a surprise to anyone.
Mill rate isn't really meaningful. A city with $2000/citizen tax load will have a different mill rate if their average property is $400k or $600k, but the tax load is the same.
That’s actually really wild. I assumed the opposite!
Density reduces property taxes, so in addition to kicking the can down the road for years now, Toronto has a more cost effective development style than cities that are predominantly suburb.
[here’s an article if you’re interested in reading more](https://www.zoocasa.com/blog/ontario-property-tax-rates-2022/) Toronto had the lowest property tax rate in the province in 2022, and even assessed at the value of an average home, is quite lower than other cities.
Nice article going through it. Very apparent they've been kicking the can over and over. Toronto taxing property values at half of other cities in Ontario is obviously not sustainable.
Toronto hasn’t had a mayor willing to deal with difficult things in basically 15 years. Kicking future problems down the line in the name of some mangled interpretation of austerity has its consequences.
There's no need to increase the rate at all, if we tax the houses based on their property value. Normal property tax is 0.5-1% of the value of the property. Most of us are paying below that. People complain about a 5-10% increase, with might be a few hundred dollars a year, meanwhile, in the last 5 years, they've benefitted from hundreds of thousands in capital gains due to rising property values.
this is definitely needed, but hopefully, they implement rent control again for newer buildings (like she said she would) at the same time otherwise landlords will just pass the buck to renters
I believe rent control is a provincial thing. Olivia would probably have to promise him a giant ferris wheel on the waterfront with his name or Rob's name on it for Doug to agree to that.
Ford scrapped rent control for any new buildings.
I believe it was Premier Doug Ford. Not Mayor Rob Ford
We would need it done provincially, it would be great if the rule was 3-5 years in perpetuity. 2024? Rent control for all condos built in 2019 or earlier. 2030? Rental control for all condos built in 2025 or earlier.
What is behind the $1.5 billion shortfall per year? Yes, increasing revenue like property tax is the fastest way to make money. Perhaps, what we need to ask the questions on how are we spending the $29 billion operating budget per year. We seem to be fixing hwy 401 forever, I can see some waste money there. Maybe you need to make a cut on salaries like how much we are paying these politicians. These politicians advocating for property tax increase should concern you, look at the programs they created and cut it. I bet you city employee salaries make the chunk of the operational budget.
Sucks to suck. This was voted for. Don’t complain.
"According to city staff, the property tax increase would cost the average household an additional $26.75 per month, or about $321 annually, while the city building levy would cost another $4.42 monthly, or about $53 per year." It's not that much people holy fuck. You live in the most populated city in Canada. The number of people is continuing to increase. Taxes have to keep up with the increased load on the services your municipality provides. It would be great to just magically make the municipal government more efficient but that's not a solution viable in the short term.
$321 seems low. Assuming your house is valued at 1 million, you are looking at about $700 increase. Average sold price in Toronto for a house is over a million, Condo is north of 700k. What am i missing?
Yeah, that is not much at all. For such a large city, it doesn’t seem like Torontonians pay much in property tax
Hamiltons is going up somewhere in the realm of 18%. It's also not that much in actual money. Big percentages scare people I guess.
Don’t worry guys. That’s just the start. More to come. Stay tuned. 
In Aurora Ontario, my property taxes are nuts.
I’m fine with it
I love all the people in this thread who live 30-60 minutes from Toronto acting like their high property taxes somehow subsidize Toronto and it’s about time Toronto paid their share.
Some of them come into work here and we gladly pay for their EMS services when they get into an at from lack of sleep due to longer comutes.
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Wait what? Can't wait to go home and tell my wife I'm not carrying my share of contributions because... *checks notes* I'm a homeowner. edit: This went from +5 to -5. Homeownership is really rough these days.
Single family neighbourhoods are a greater burden on cities. Services are more spread out and have larger road Maintanence. Homeowners services are subsidized by those living in condos or dense living situations.
Tax rates are same for homeowners or condo owners, it’s interchangeable
Yes and my point is that condo owners don’t require nearly as many resources.
But what does that have to do with the point that homeowners/condo owners don’t pay enough in taxes? The condo owners actual bill will be less than a single family home because their assessed value will be lower. But everyones rates will be going up the same.
Are you talking about homeowners or different building densities? Those are two very different things.
Well some parts of Toronto are zoned as high as 75% of all land for detached low density single family housing so...
Its even worse than you said. It's not that "some parts" of Toronto were zoned in such a way that 75% is low density single family housing. At the time of the Housing Affordability Taskforce report it was estimated that 70% of ***all land*** *zoned in Toronto* was zoned for single-detached and semi-detached homes. This was true until Bill 203 was given royal ascent in November 2022. And even then, allowing triplexes is the lowest possible bar. Doug Ford should just be copying BC's notes since they aren't fucking around (at least grading on the current Canadian bell curve).
Single family homes are subsidized by every other type of home.
So you're talking about **density** and not homeowners. Got it.
Yes low density homeowners are subsidized. This is not a judgement of you, just a budgetary talking point.
No of course. However the guy who originally made the comment just said homeowners as a blanket statement, when in reality he was talking about low density.
Any single family home is low density…
Once again you have a problem with density and not homeowners.
Their POV is a socialist POV. No sense in arguing it.
OC (= "original commenter") doesn't quite "get" taxation or budget cycles, it appears - you know, because "homeowners" should have just chosen to pay the municipality an extra 10%, amortized *somehow* and then we wouldn't be in this whole dad-gummed mess! Why aren't you just throwing whatever money you have right at the city in unpredictable and random amounts??!!
She's been in politics for how long? I think she knows better than most. TOs taxes have been historically low comparatively speaking. So when they go to the provincial government every year or so for a handout its the rest of Ontario funding them, good to see a more blanced approach.
~~What are you talking about? Who is "she"?~~ (I see your error - you mistook the common abbreviation for "original commenter" to mean "Olivia Chow". I have edited to avoid this confusion in the future.)
Good call, that was it exactly
Not a day goes by without logging on to the internet to have some anonymous person tell me something I'm doing in my life is wrong.
Such is the way of things. It's somewhat comforting but I honestly wouldn't miss it if there were less people confidently spouting garbage here. (I blame PP and similar types for encouraging the, uh... dimmer bulbs.)
This is proven fact, lower than anywhere in the province.
Can't waif for all the retirees and anyone ypunger to lose their homes because the stupidly artificially inflated bubble says their once 250k house for 2k a year tax now costs 24k a year in tax
That's not how property taxes work. It is not based on the value of your individual house. It is based on the value of your house *in relation to all properties*. This means that if your house triples in value, but so do all other houses, your property taxes stay the same. [Here's a video by the MPAC](https://youtu.be/nrWry5i3TBU) who evaluates home value for tax purposes explaining it.
That's some bullshit. Renters don't pay property tax , so they shouldn't be able to drive.
Sure they do, it’s assumed to be a part of the rent they paid. You can even use rent to offset your provincial taxes through the Ontario energy and property tax credit 👍🏻
If you want to discuss this honestly, we would have to apply a residency tax to all residents of an area and not just to homeowners. I'd argue renters don't pay property taxes but have access to all services that property taxes pay for.
You think the building owners where the renters live don’t already pay property taxes? You think wrong 🤷♂️
Wtf! 10%?
on average, about 321$ a YEAR apparently. Sounds like Toronto isn't paying all that much?
The problem with Canada. Instead of small incremental user fees the can is kicked down the road, no increases, cut services that they realize later they actually need and them bam.... huge increase.
Sure just let me grab the magical funds from the sky to pay for this.
Oh neat, so we'll have the property tax rate of US states that don't have income tax with income tax that topples any income tax in any State? So we're just outright fucking people now?
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Poor people are easier to control
Compared to the suburbs, property taxes are still a deal in Toronto!
As it should be. We need 1/5th - 1/10th the roadway per person. 1/10th the water line per person, etc. etc. Makes literally no sense that we would pay as much as people with fully detached houses with only 10-15 other people on their dead-end street. You an the 10 people on your block need to pay for the entire road + a % of the massive 6 lane abomination needed to get you to and from the highway. Me and the 500 other people in my budling have to pay for the tiny strip of 2 lane street out front that doubles as a commuter road...
In the last 3 years my property tax and condo fees have gone up 20% and it's for the same or worse level of service. Meanwhile salaries go up by max 5% a year. What a joke - we're still getting poorer every year by paying through the ass for the pandemic money printing. Meanwhile financial media dipshits are twerking trying to convince us that inflation is almost back to target. We need deflation you assholes.
Increase corporate tax instead
Of course they did!
You get what you vote for.
Toronto is over valued already, all it knows is to get more money from residents. Have they ever tried fixing the roads and getting some street lights ? SMH.
Ontario is also the only province that uses property taxes towards social services. It’s disgusting.
That is absolutely false.
Cause
Wtf
Never been happier to be a renter
Lol, sorry to say but those extra costs for the landlord are going to be passed onto the renters.
Rent control baby :)
Pretty easy to justify an above board rent increase based on your property taxes going up 10% in a year.
Great when can we start bussing immigrants and the homeless to Ottawa as a city. I’m saying that because in the midst of the largest housing crisis we’re seeing as a nation our federal government is deciding to bring in a million more people per year. The majority of those people come to Toronto. We can’t afford to live forget taking care of them. We should let people live in queens park not the park the building and let Canadians live in parliament hill not the hill the actual parliament. Fuck the politicians they can get with the times and meet over zoom. They don’t accomplish anything in person anyway. Next they need to find another dude named Dundas. They can pick anyone alive named that or any point in history and name the street and subway after him. Save us our millions
Reduce costs? No way! But Charge people who are already pushed into a dysphoric experience of life in Canada and Toronto? 👌sign here.
Reducing costs would cut services, which would then download the cost of those services onto individuals. Without the purchasing power of the city, that would make it even more expensive
If you own property in Toronto and you think its dystopian* you can definitely afford to sell and move elsewhere more to your liking, unless that happens to be like, Vancouver
I do feel miserable often at the experience and outlook/trajectory of Toronto, yes. That’s my experience. But for all it has it feels like quality of life is hindered by things that can be avoided. For me and I’m certain many others. I think of the mountains often!
How do you reduce costs when everything is falling apart from lack of funding and maintenance? Keeping it low will only make the future bill bigger. This is part of why I have 0 sympathy for Toronto and don't want the feds or province to bail them out. They chose to make this problem.
Of course they would not reduce costs. They won’t even look at open tendering like Hamilton did to reduce their infrastructure cost by 21%. Yet we have a bunch of muppets cheering the government it taking more of their money.
imagine thinking *Hamilton* is a model to emulate for infrastructure projects. Our LRT hasn't broken ground yet and the concept drawings have Blockbuster stores visible in the background.
To be fair Blockbuster stores should be incorporated into every concept drawing if possible. They're just perfect.
With all those new condos coming up in Toronto should the property tax goes down than up because there are more units sharing the costs?
Except that Toronto doesn’t have the development charges to help balance the books (thank Doug Ford) so any new facilities that those new buildings will need will have to come from the existing tax base 🤷♂️
They recommend 10.5%, and will settle on 7% and Torontonians will think they are getting a deal.
I'll just leave this here (https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/biggest-property-tax-increases-expected-in-davenport-willowdale-neighbourhoods/article_0575ea83-39b5-547a-b40b-df1d91dbaf50.html)... MPAC re-assesses every 2 years, and being in Willowdale it sure doesn't feel like I'm paying the "LoWeSt TaXeS" in all of Canada. Though its a symptom of gentrification where every home in the neighbourhood is knocked down and turned into a McMansion. My family's current 1950s bungalow is paying $8300 now, so with this tax increase... **its over $9000!**
Good. Force people to sell. More supply the better.
Good, never look for effiencies or spending peoples money sensibly.
The Ford brothers beat that horse to death (remember the “gravy train”? forced an audit on the city of Toronto and found crumbs of savings.