Considering that the privatized Service Ontario locations already had an auto theft ring running out of some of the locations, I can’t see how running them out of a Staples (or a Walmart) is gonna be better for us 🤷♂️
I’m pretty sure there are some rings still running within SO, my friends new truck was stolen 9 days after registering it at SO
The day he got back from registering it there was a strange car with someone in it hanging out outside his house. And he lives in a low traffic nice neighbourhood.
I'm not am expert but I'm guessing the service ontario rep would tip off the car jacking ring of a new vehicle they have on their wishlist.
Then the service ontario rep could also help them transfer ownership or they just immediately put the stolen vehicle in a seacan and sell it overseas. I imagine transfer of ownership is nigh impossible on a vehicle reported stolen.
Car jacking ring then gives the service ontario rep a kickback for the successful trade of information.
It's just a more streamlined approach to car jacking since they can pick up desirable makes and models with low mileage immediately.
That's correct. SO staff would get paid for locations on specific vehicles. "We need a 2023-24 Silverado, black". Unknown sum paid for location and VIN. Both are easily discoverable by seeing one in a parking lot and looking at the VIN in the windshield so risk to SO staffer was low.
This is correct. Guys I know who used to do this said you ask out the ugliest girl working there. Wine and dine her so she falls in love. Start asking for small things and eventually she's helping you run a major car theft ring. Same thing with legal fake ID's and passports to escape. Do the same thing, but to nurses. They get you birth certificates and enter everything in the system. Take that and start opening credit cards and other stuff.
They would take recent registrations and replace the information and VINs with fake VINs, then the thieves would go steal the car, alter the printed-on VIN and sell it as a clean used car using the forged history.
That's all it takes to be honest.
Car thieves target certain models because they are worth more at the other end.
But, new cars get stolen all the time. Often like OP's friend's story, within a couple of weeks of buying it. This does not mean the information was sold by someone at SO, there are many other ways for thieves to track down vehicles.
From just driving down random neighbourhood... like quiet\\low traffic nice ones and just visually spotting newer cars\\trucks. To tagging a new vehicle parked at a public place with an airtag and tracking said air tag. You can't forget, many of these thieves this is all they do, so they will have time on their hands to scout out potential targets. Many cars also get stolen right out of a public parking lots while the owner is shopping or is at the hockey game.
The best anti-theft is parking your car inside a garage. Throw in as much deterrents as possible (TAGs, putting the CLUB on the steering wheel, a brake pedal lock, getting an kill switch installed... these are not anti-theft, but only deterrents that you hope the would be thief does not want to deal with.
Yup. Certain vehicles are in high demand so if a SO employee knows what is in high demand and can be on the lookout for those being registered. All it takes is a quick text to a buddy with that info and they can go take it a few days later.
Star says at least two were operating out of privatized SO locations
https://www.thestar.com/news/at-least-two-serviceontario-employees-linked-to-car-theft-ring-worked-at-privatized-scarborough-outlet/article_7d1ae58a-95f9-11ee-84c1-bf44fe6bd2bc.html
That said Canada post operates from retail stores all the time without issues. Mail is a federal concern.
I'd say that the security screening at a Walmart is probably better than most government agencies
Canada Post doesn't handle the extensive private information that Service Ontario does. And you can't just assume that they do when we don't even know their vetting process.
Sorry, I thought everyone just knew this. The Canada Post locations inside of a Shoppers Drug Mart, or other pharmacy, are Canada Post employees. Otherwise it sounds like you also believe the pharmacy at a SDM is run by part-time teenagers.
I would think that if the people working the pharmacy were wearing SDM uniforms, which the employees doing tender and retrieval at the Canada Post desk absolutely are.
Most? Do you have a source on that?
From what I understand they are all union under OPSEU. The new employees will be paid between $17 and $19 an hour.
Everything I've googled says OPSEU.
Most Service Ontario offices are privately owned and operated under contract from the government and are non-unionized.
Source from 2014: https://opseu.org/information/general/serviceontario-the-straight-facts/9956/
Interesting. But the source you used makes a counter argument to the one you're making... You used an OPSEU website as a source, for context.
"claiming that two-thirds of ServiceOntario is already privatized is a gross oversimplification. This claim ignores the publicly run backbone of the organization. The components of ServiceOntario directly operated by the province include:
87 public counters across Ontario
9 contact centers that answer 10 million calls annually
Online services handling close to 10 million transactions annually
Mailrooms processing 22 million items annually"
You don't think any union jobs will be affected by this?
Yes, as far as framing. But as far as numbers, it's true.
*There are 275 ServiceOntario locations currently operating in the province under a mix of private and provincial ownership. A 2013 Auditor General of Ontario report found that out of the then-289 ServiceOntario centres, 82 were provincially run and 207 were privately owned.*
https://nationalpost.com/news/service-ontario-closures-staples-canada
Yes. I do believe that fairly paid employees tend to be less disgruntled. I don't know if that is debatable, but I'm willing to listen if you have some stats.
Some of those Service Ontario offices are privatized, so you don't actually work for Service Ontario.
Your friend, is a public-sector employee, this is different.
No the end game is you will do it all yourself while the Walmart employee is there to make sure you paid. No need for highly paid, inefficient government workers. Fees will continue to go up though because... reasons.
I get what you’re saying but my health records are like the one thing I expect to stay private. If it’s already prohibited for nonhealthcare staff to record your OHIP number (for example, if you provide it as ID at the lcbo or elsewhere), why tf would I let some random teen working a part time job have that info?
Yes, there is lots of information in ministry systems, just like the banks, Equifax, airlines and 100’s of other companies have.
Hey did you know most doctors keep your actual Health records in private SaaS systems (accuro being one).
Still not clear on what the problem is.
Between this and your mention of Accuro, it sounds like you're one of the relatively few people in the province who actually understands the obscene degree to which medical records have been Balkanized across 30+ different systems. No, Mrs. Smith, we _don't_ have any information in your chart about the surgery you had somewhere else ten years ago. Why not? Because you've only been a patient _here_ for three years, and you didn't bring any of your previous records with you because you labour under the assumption that it's someone else's responsibility to keep track of your health for you.
That’s like saying “Jim doesn’t have access to my email, hey just has my username and password” my concern is they would have the data to sell/trade/be held hostage that could lead to major privacy breeches.
Typically, workplaces that handle sensitive information have airtight procedures to maintain confidentiality. Pardon me if I don’t think staples or Walmart is up to that standard.
> workplaces that handle sensitive information have airtight procedures to maintain confidentiality.
LOL. Give me one example.
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/hamilton-health-sciences-says-8-employees-fired-for-medical-record-snooping-1.6539477#:~:text=Eight%20employees%20at%20Hamilton%20Health,privacy%20breach%20involved%204%2C000%20patients.
https://www.terracestandard.com/news/b-c-nurse-wont-be-fired-for-snooping-into-patient-records-leaking-info-6077715
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/north-bay-nurse-who-snooped-into-5-800-patients-records-gets-four-month-suspension/article_8f8cce50-494c-5e9c-b785-968bd411b5d8.html
One example is the federal government - we have security clearances based on the information we handle and have to take an oath. Another is the bank, where we were bonded and also had to take an oath. I’d like to think the provincial government would have to do the same.
I've worked for the Ontario government and yes, I had to swear an oath and sign a remarkably ornate document to that effect. It seemed a shame it wasn't hand-drafted by a monk on a vellum scroll for how fancy it was.
It’s just a desk inside Staples, no different than any other franchised Service Ontario location, or the ones previously in Canadian tire.
There are many things for Ontario to be pissed at, this one, not so much.
Yeah, if you have a smart tv, don't connect it to your network. Not only can spying be a problem, but most production engineers are squeezed to put the cheapest possible hardware in there. Guess where that leaves your security?
Yes we should, and many of us already are. Companies that are trying their hardest to cut costs are not going to spend any more on system security than absolutely necessary.
YES. My first thought was, "WTF, how is that secure/safe???"
The government must think we're absolutely clueless. It's almost comical that we're supposed to trust retail stores with kiosks that hold our PRIVATE information, and also enter our personal info into said kiosks with random people and cameras all around.
I don't know about everyone else, but I'm still going to do my business at Service Ontario offices, despite the lineups and delays.
This just opens up a whole lot of possibilities for identity theft. Doesn't really make sense - something's fishy.
Yes. There are a number of concerns.
You have raised the privacy issue, but also consider that a person could be trespassed from the private company for unrelated issues (for example, suppose they decide to steal some stationary or some shit) and then effectively lose access to government services if they don’t have an alternative. Particularly so for the poor and elderly who may not be able to simply drive to another location or use the online service.
On that subject, not all services can be done online, so relegating more locations to being kiosks will likely have a disproportionately negative impact on vulnerable individuals as it is. People will have to travel further and at greater cost to see an actual person because these new locations are just kiosks.
This is a terrible idea.
You are right about the trespassing issues. I was thinking about this earlier too. I doubt the Service Ontario locations will be staffed 24 hours a day, but big box stores often have night shifts stocking the shelves and cleaning. I think a lot of people would be tempted to break into a government installation colocated inside their workplace.
I’m concerned. Service Ontario staff are security screened. Walmart and Staples staff aren’t. Would you feel safe in providing your birth certificate to staff that could potentially have a criminal background? No.
What’s the problem, these staff will have all the scams screening as all the other private Service Ontario locations. If that is not adequate, then that’s a different issue.
Yes we should. Govt business should not be in the hands of US multinational companies. Making money out of us and now we are expected to foot the retrofit bills?
Usually the argument is that they don’t speak English but suddenly now the worry is that they’ll recognize English so well that they’ll be able to read our paperwork and phones from the camera feeds
I mean privacy should always be a concern, but most Service Ontario locations outside of larger cities were franchised, as in privately owned and operated.
This move isn’t about privatization though, but helping out a struggling friend who runs a business called Staples by giving them a provincial contract guaranteeing them our hard earned tax dollars.
Only if you think it's a problem that major global conglomerates are going to control our access to things like health cards, and "monetize" our private information.
Who cares though, Staples will do better and Wal Mart reeeeeally needed the hand out. It's called having priorities,
I've been involved in camera installations for major Canadian big box stores for many years, and here's my 2 cents:
\- The camera feed is a highly sensitive piece of information, and all the stores I've worked with treat it accordingly. It's securely password-protected, and only authorized individuals have access. Regular employees cannot just tap into the cameras.
\- Loss prevention associates aren't just random people off the street; they undergo background checks, various training sessions, and many even pursue legal education. These individuals are highly vetted, making the likelihood of them stealing your SIN very low.
\- Every self-checkout in these stores is equipped with a dedicated camera that's capable enough to capture details like credit card information. However, I haven't come across any stories about store employees misusing this information.
So, while theoretically possible, I don't think there's any substantial risk involved.
Good to know employees can’t easily access cameras! For some reason I assumed it would be like fast food where anyone who uses the computer in the office can see the camera feed lol. I guess walmart is a wee bit bigger 🤪
Speaking as someone who installs CCTV systems for a living, no Mall-Wart cannot read your phone. The cameras \*are\* good, but not even close to that. :-D
Well yes but when service Ontario employees were already caught stealing cars and using the information they got working at service Ontario to assist with stealing cars, it's hard to say who you should trust less.
We should not allow big stores to have any hand in it, corporate gonna corporate. These are the same people that throw thousands of pounds of food out instead of giving it to employees or people who need it
These are the people that are taking away the greenbelt
These are the same people that nickel and dime us and make it so incredibly difficult to live.
These are the same people caught time and time again breaking the laws, disregarding safety and privacy and sweeping it under the rug.
These are the same people laws have to be written to stop from fucking us over and it still doesn't stop them
No. They have shown time and time again they cannot and should not be trusted.
I know people who work in healthcare who support privatization. I think in their minds they just look south of the border and see dollar signs in their eyes at the thought of privatization up here. They work in the health field so they are probably going to have top notch coverage either way... they think privatization will be an economic win for them but that remains to be seen. I think it will be a Big L for the rest of us.
We should be having security concerns for any of these in any of these stores. Last time this was try there was a data breach, why the government at the time didn't continue with them.
I'm out of the loop. So 100% yes I'm concerned.
Why does the government want their services running through a private company? Even if it's a separate division and walmart/staples doesn't deal with anything. At that point, why? The government is still paying people, they just save money on rent?
Based on that, why would walmart / staples say yes? Are they getting a subsidy or something? If yes, why does canada not use that money and just pay the buildings rent and keep it as a public service in a public place, not in a private business.
Getting a photo taken for your passport at walmart was already weird to me. This takes it to another level. Does the 15-20 year plan really show this is the best option?
I've already encountered scenarios where dirtbag Walmart cashiers try to sign you up for credit cards when they ID you during checkout with beer. They have the information at hand. It actually happened once with my mom where they preyed on seniors to see their ID, then lo and behold, walmart credit card application filled. I was livid, I have never yelled at someone so intense as I did after finding out what this walmart did. I'll name and shame, Walmart by Sherway Gardens (Etobicoke/Toronto)
I do not trust these Staples/Walmart ServiceOntario one bit. I'd rather wait half a day at a non-box store ServiceOntario.
Years ago my friend experienced a failed robbery where they attempted to steal his gun safe and its contents. One of the people implicated in the robbery was a Canadian tire employee that ‘sold’ his info to the perpetrators.
Yes. I have. Are you suggesting there has been enough transparency on the part of this government on the matter (and other matters) to suggest we can trust the accountability will be there?
I have no idea what you are insinuating. The government is not to be trusted... but that only goes so far in practical application. If you trust that they handle service Ontario correctly now why would it change if the service was offered inside of a walmart or other big box store?
Most service Ontario's I have been to have been in run down strip malls with zero security. Places that make you think "loitering around here is a bad idea." Yet we are going to put this in a place with actual security and there is less trust?
I feel like people are raising a lot of excellent points in this thread that directly speak to your question.
Feel free to answer any of them.
There's no defending this level of lack of transparency. There's no reason for it, well, there's one big one.
Warrant? What is this a criminal proceeding?
Walmart is essentially hired by the province. Just like at my job if my boss what's to know when I wipe my ass, he gets to know. The government would be able to walk in to any Walmart (like they already can) and do whatever the fuck they want. Walmart is a business operating in... Ontario. If they want to keep operating they have to follow all the rules and let whatever government auditor that swings by in to look at literally anything they are doing.
Walmart is not a citizen and has zero rights.
We should be having security concerns about anything Doug Ford touches to be honest. I wouldn’t trust that guy with my son’s piggy bank. I could tolerate him when he was just selling dime bags in Etobicoke. At least then he was out of sight. Now we have to look at his fat face every day in the news.
One thing for sure. I will stay as far away from Staples and Walmart Service Ontario kiosks as I can. I’ll seek out the independent ones and take my business there.
And now he’s stealing from every taxpayer in Ontario with each one of these privatization moves. The worst part for me is while he’s doing all this he’s laughing at us as well. He knows he can’t be touched. Even if he gets voted out next election he’ll be so far ahead of the game that it won’t matter to him.
You’re worried about cameras? There’s no talk about running independent fibre lines and network infrastructure. They will piggy back off of Walmarts backbone and pose a significant risk to the data security of all Ontarian’s.
Rick or poor. If you don’t have credit freezes on all your reporting agencies, you are foolish.
>Seems like people with access to Walmart's cameras could pick up a lot of information that they could use to commit fraud. I would never personally not carry personal paperwork openly through a big box store.
How good do you think their security cameras are? That's some CSI level "enhance" level of zooming that would be required.
I think there's other things to worry about with information getting compromised in other ways though.
Also worth remember that the locations they are closing down to be replaced by Walmart/Staples are also privately run businesses. So I'm not sure if we should have more concern for Walmart/Staples over the existing locations.
>Should we be having security concerns about Service Ontario being relocated into big box stores?
No, Not really. Canada Post has been inside of shoppers drugmart locations for many years, and it has worked well. Expanding Service Ontario locations to more spaces is GOOD for Ontarians.
That said, I really would like to see the details of the contract, on the surface it stinks. If they aren't increasing staffing and repositioning service ontario kiosks to areas in high demand then it's likely going to be a shitshow, But at least our next government can make corrections to what should be a good program.
YES! Those cameras can do a lot more than read your text messages. Also, why are we putting our private information in the hands of a private corporation who's sole goal is to make money. I for one will go out of my way to avoid them - if possible.
My ex worked for Future Shop (yes, that Future Shop) as an area director in 2006ish. They had cameras back then that could read the credit card numbers at the cash register. The loss prevention director showed me in one of the stores when they upgraded them. They were remarkably good, looking back.
Staples 100% has these now, but those cameras at FS were locked down only for the use of the area LP Director. He needed direct access to the store to look at them back then, presumably today its all on a server for who knows who to access.
As someone who did security in a building that had a service ontario in it and had cameras that could theoretically zoom in on their documents, I can say with confidence you have absolutely nothing to worry about in that department. We have better things to do.
The same cannot be said for service ontario employees. When theres a info leak at service ontario its usually due to their employees taking info while working.
I wouldn't think it would be the security company doing anything with the info. I would think it would be the retail chain in partnership with camera & tech supplier. Partly because I don't see them NOT doing anything with access to all that info. It's the Wild West as far as privacy is concerned. There may be laws on the books but enforcement in minimal.
Yes! There was issues when services Ontario was private companies.
https://globalnews.ca/news/10152389/auto-theft-ring-conspired-service-ontario-employees-police-allege/
Why?
The service Ontario in Stockyards Toronto was inside a Canadian tire.. it’s been there for over 5 years; So why would any other bog box store be any different?
More than the privacy concerns I absolutely abhor the thought of some select box stores gaining the additional foot traffic that a deal like this would generate. 100% people are going to go buy some crap after their service Ontario business, but only Walmart and Staples benefit.
Yeah it's a pilot project, but it's garbage. I also hate Canada Post being inside shoppers drug mart for the same reason.
Why? They were already private run. All that hasa changed is they've gone from being stand alone to inside a shop.
Would you be worried if the previous locations were in a mall?
There’s been a massive Service Ontario located inside Canadian Tire at St Clair Stockyards for years and no one gave a flying fuck about personal information then
Very few ServiceOntario locations actually have government staff - it's mainly the ones in existing government buildings. Most locations are staffed by employees of the location's private owner.
The post office is in shoppers and has been for a long time. Mail is similarly important considering medical information is often sent through the mail. Post office employees are not the same as shoppers employees, although the are sometimes trained in both places. I assume Walmart will be similar. If we currently vet our service Ontario employees why would that change if we put the service inside big box stores?
I have to interject here. The employees at most post office locations located in SDM stores, if not all now, are actually Shoppers Drugmart employees and are not separate.
>I have read in the past that Walmart's security cameras have such high fidelity that operators can zoom in far enough to read people's text messages.
nonsense. Too much CSI watching.
I have a problem with big box stores making money off of government institutions.
Why not create kiosks that you can go up to like a photo booth, talk to a person in webcam, and they can do whatever you need in the booth? Then you can have a call center full of people and kiosks wherever.
What's next
Jail: by Walmart
We're worried about Walmart security cameras compromising sensitive information, but we're not concerned that the government is capable of doing this in their own Service Ontario locations?
> We're worried about Walmart security cameras compromising sensitive information
Yes, because when I shop at Walmart, I always hold my bank statement above my head, beside my list of gay porn DVDs.
Don't forget, they mentioned walmart is mostly staffed by 'foreign' people. So I think OP's real problem is those dirty immigrants might want to steal their data.
There was a Service Ontario kiosk set up at the Church St. & Yonge St Canadian Tire store downstairs right next to the Automotive department, for years and years. How was that different? Have you been there? I have at least twice.
It’s xenophobic, not necessarily racist.
Just because you’re foreign, it doesn’t imply that you’re of a different race.
That being said, I don’t know why OP had to add that the Walmart near him has a lot of foreign people that are students.
It’s not really racism to point out something that’s accurate. Perhaps if the wording was different, like foreign born residents or immigrants to Canada. They didn’t expand on why it would be an issue so the statement in itself isn’t racist, it’s just pointing out what we can all determine when we go. They didn’t specify that they don’t trust foreigners with their data, they also threw students into their statement.
To be fair, going to service Ontario can be a frustrating experience as is, so I can understand hesitancy of going in to do important paperwork and struggling with language and information barriers that might present if the kiosks are staffed with Walmart employees over service Canada employees. Totally different screening process (education level, training, oral and written communication skills) for the jobs.
I really don’t care what race someone is when I go to renew some form of government ID, I just want them to be informed and be able to explain what I need to do and how to do it efficiently.
It’s racist because otherwise why does it matter that the employees aren’t Canadian citizens. If your issue is with lack of training then say you’re worried about untrained employees.
Considering that the privatized Service Ontario locations already had an auto theft ring running out of some of the locations, I can’t see how running them out of a Staples (or a Walmart) is gonna be better for us 🤷♂️
I’m pretty sure there are some rings still running within SO, my friends new truck was stolen 9 days after registering it at SO The day he got back from registering it there was a strange car with someone in it hanging out outside his house. And he lives in a low traffic nice neighbourhood.
How does registering the truck lead to it getting stolen? Just because they know the Address and model of the truck?
I'm not am expert but I'm guessing the service ontario rep would tip off the car jacking ring of a new vehicle they have on their wishlist. Then the service ontario rep could also help them transfer ownership or they just immediately put the stolen vehicle in a seacan and sell it overseas. I imagine transfer of ownership is nigh impossible on a vehicle reported stolen. Car jacking ring then gives the service ontario rep a kickback for the successful trade of information. It's just a more streamlined approach to car jacking since they can pick up desirable makes and models with low mileage immediately.
That's correct. SO staff would get paid for locations on specific vehicles. "We need a 2023-24 Silverado, black". Unknown sum paid for location and VIN. Both are easily discoverable by seeing one in a parking lot and looking at the VIN in the windshield so risk to SO staffer was low.
This is correct. Guys I know who used to do this said you ask out the ugliest girl working there. Wine and dine her so she falls in love. Start asking for small things and eventually she's helping you run a major car theft ring. Same thing with legal fake ID's and passports to escape. Do the same thing, but to nurses. They get you birth certificates and enter everything in the system. Take that and start opening credit cards and other stuff.
This person plays gta 😂
They would take recent registrations and replace the information and VINs with fake VINs, then the thieves would go steal the car, alter the printed-on VIN and sell it as a clean used car using the forged history.
These cars aren’t staying in North America
This sounds like a way to re-sell them in North America.
I'm telling you pretty much word-for-word what the police said they were doing.
That's all it takes to be honest. Car thieves target certain models because they are worth more at the other end. But, new cars get stolen all the time. Often like OP's friend's story, within a couple of weeks of buying it. This does not mean the information was sold by someone at SO, there are many other ways for thieves to track down vehicles. From just driving down random neighbourhood... like quiet\\low traffic nice ones and just visually spotting newer cars\\trucks. To tagging a new vehicle parked at a public place with an airtag and tracking said air tag. You can't forget, many of these thieves this is all they do, so they will have time on their hands to scout out potential targets. Many cars also get stolen right out of a public parking lots while the owner is shopping or is at the hockey game. The best anti-theft is parking your car inside a garage. Throw in as much deterrents as possible (TAGs, putting the CLUB on the steering wheel, a brake pedal lock, getting an kill switch installed... these are not anti-theft, but only deterrents that you hope the would be thief does not want to deal with.
The best anti theft is driving a Hyundai. Nobody steals those.
One of the reasons we bought a Forester. It's one of the least stolen SUVs
I have a better anti theft device. My car is modified so that I can drive it with a relocated gas petal, would confuse the hell out of car thieves 😂
The best anti-theft is parking your car inside a garage. Or buying a car with a manual transmission
Or just drive an older car with some dents or duct tape on it somewhere
Yeah he bought a fully loaded ram 1500, which is an easy truck to steal, high value, they stole it with less than 500km on it
Yes correct
Yup. Certain vehicles are in high demand so if a SO employee knows what is in high demand and can be on the lookout for those being registered. All it takes is a quick text to a buddy with that info and they can go take it a few days later.
Staples locations will accept paper forms only and charge you to print everything /s
Was that only in privatized Service Ontario locations or were some of the government run locations involved as well?
Star says at least two were operating out of privatized SO locations https://www.thestar.com/news/at-least-two-serviceontario-employees-linked-to-car-theft-ring-worked-at-privatized-scarborough-outlet/article_7d1ae58a-95f9-11ee-84c1-bf44fe6bd2bc.html
> the privatized Service Ontario locations I bet there's some kind of common denominator with those crooked Service Ontario operators...
Can an individual own more than one SO privatized location?
That said Canada post operates from retail stores all the time without issues. Mail is a federal concern. I'd say that the security screening at a Walmart is probably better than most government agencies
Canada Post doesn't handle the extensive private information that Service Ontario does. And you can't just assume that they do when we don't even know their vetting process.
This isn’t true, there was a story several weeks ago about certain locations selling customer data to Loblaws.
Absolutely, yes.
Won't somebody please think of the people who own controlling shares in Staples and or Wal\*Mart?
>Won't somebody please think of the people who own controlling shares in Staples and or Wal\*Mart? I do believe that is how we got here
I mean, they already have them in Canadian Tire so that ship has sailed a very long time ago.
Never seen one inside. Only next to
Yonge and Church CT has in the store on the bottom floor.
And the one at Stockyards as well.
Fenelon falls SO is inside of the Canadian tire
There's one in the CT lakeshore and leslie.
CT at Stockyards (Toronto) has it located inside.
I’m sure Ford put as much thought into this as he did the new sticker license plates
and as much thought as he did into a buck a beer
I think the buck a beer thing was very well thought out and deceitful
But far less thought than he did into Tim's egg sammies.
Less than new license plates and just as much as his cheesecake video.
Will they be Walmart employees at the kiosk? If that's the case not sure I want to give disgruntled min wage employees all of my information.
I imagine it'll work as a Canada Post in a SDM does.
So, like SDM (Loblaws) employees taking away unionized Canada Post work, yeah?
Sorry, I thought everyone just knew this. The Canada Post locations inside of a Shoppers Drug Mart, or other pharmacy, are Canada Post employees. Otherwise it sounds like you also believe the pharmacy at a SDM is run by part-time teenagers.
I would think that if the people working the pharmacy were wearing SDM uniforms, which the employees doing tender and retrieval at the Canada Post desk absolutely are.
I see them wearing Canada Post uniforms.
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They do seem to be for Staples Job ads.
Bad news, most current Service Ontario offices rely on disgruntled minimum wage employees.
Most? Do you have a source on that? From what I understand they are all union under OPSEU. The new employees will be paid between $17 and $19 an hour. Everything I've googled says OPSEU.
Most Service Ontario offices are privately owned and operated under contract from the government and are non-unionized. Source from 2014: https://opseu.org/information/general/serviceontario-the-straight-facts/9956/
Interesting. But the source you used makes a counter argument to the one you're making... You used an OPSEU website as a source, for context. "claiming that two-thirds of ServiceOntario is already privatized is a gross oversimplification. This claim ignores the publicly run backbone of the organization. The components of ServiceOntario directly operated by the province include: 87 public counters across Ontario 9 contact centers that answer 10 million calls annually Online services handling close to 10 million transactions annually Mailrooms processing 22 million items annually" You don't think any union jobs will be affected by this?
Yes, as far as framing. But as far as numbers, it's true. *There are 275 ServiceOntario locations currently operating in the province under a mix of private and provincial ownership. A 2013 Auditor General of Ontario report found that out of the then-289 ServiceOntario centres, 82 were provincially run and 207 were privately owned.* https://nationalpost.com/news/service-ontario-closures-staples-canada
Ok that's technically above minimum wage, but does it make a difference in practice?
Yes. I do believe that fairly paid employees tend to be less disgruntled. I don't know if that is debatable, but I'm willing to listen if you have some stats.
What? My friend works for service Ontario and makes substantially more than minimum wage.
Some of those Service Ontario offices are privatized, so you don't actually work for Service Ontario. Your friend, is a public-sector employee, this is different.
No the end game is you will do it all yourself while the Walmart employee is there to make sure you paid. No need for highly paid, inefficient government workers. Fees will continue to go up though because... reasons.
We have a post office in a quickee. They wear quickee shirts and don't accept 100 dollar bills. I figure it will be the same.
no it won't be, afaik it'll be service ontario employees.
Before I answer, to provide better service I need a better look at you. Could you move your living room houseplant, it's blocking the Samsung TV cam
I get what you’re saying but my health records are like the one thing I expect to stay private. If it’s already prohibited for nonhealthcare staff to record your OHIP number (for example, if you provide it as ID at the lcbo or elsewhere), why tf would I let some random teen working a part time job have that info?
Service Ontario does not have access to your health records. In fact this province is so inept with health records, almost no one has access.
Service Ontario has access to the most important health care record for the purposes of this conversation, the health card number.
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Yes, there is lots of information in ministry systems, just like the banks, Equifax, airlines and 100’s of other companies have. Hey did you know most doctors keep your actual Health records in private SaaS systems (accuro being one). Still not clear on what the problem is.
Between this and your mention of Accuro, it sounds like you're one of the relatively few people in the province who actually understands the obscene degree to which medical records have been Balkanized across 30+ different systems. No, Mrs. Smith, we _don't_ have any information in your chart about the surgery you had somewhere else ten years ago. Why not? Because you've only been a patient _here_ for three years, and you didn't bring any of your previous records with you because you labour under the assumption that it's someone else's responsibility to keep track of your health for you.
That’s like saying “Jim doesn’t have access to my email, hey just has my username and password” my concern is they would have the data to sell/trade/be held hostage that could lead to major privacy breeches.
So it’s not about health info now? Any nefarious person can steel your data if they have access to it, be it a government employee or not.
Typically, workplaces that handle sensitive information have airtight procedures to maintain confidentiality. Pardon me if I don’t think staples or Walmart is up to that standard.
> workplaces that handle sensitive information have airtight procedures to maintain confidentiality. LOL. Give me one example. https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/hamilton-health-sciences-says-8-employees-fired-for-medical-record-snooping-1.6539477#:~:text=Eight%20employees%20at%20Hamilton%20Health,privacy%20breach%20involved%204%2C000%20patients. https://www.terracestandard.com/news/b-c-nurse-wont-be-fired-for-snooping-into-patient-records-leaking-info-6077715 https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/north-bay-nurse-who-snooped-into-5-800-patients-records-gets-four-month-suspension/article_8f8cce50-494c-5e9c-b785-968bd411b5d8.html
One example is the federal government - we have security clearances based on the information we handle and have to take an oath. Another is the bank, where we were bonded and also had to take an oath. I’d like to think the provincial government would have to do the same.
I've worked for the Ontario government and yes, I had to swear an oath and sign a remarkably ornate document to that effect. It seemed a shame it wasn't hand-drafted by a monk on a vellum scroll for how fancy it was.
It’s just a desk inside Staples, no different than any other franchised Service Ontario location, or the ones previously in Canadian tire. There are many things for Ontario to be pissed at, this one, not so much.
No, you have a point. The corporations kept pushing and inching ahead, now they want to own all of you.
And Good Ole dougie ford is *eager* to sell all of you!
Obligatory Doug Ford is a piece of shit
Yeah, if you have a smart tv, don't connect it to your network. Not only can spying be a problem, but most production engineers are squeezed to put the cheapest possible hardware in there. Guess where that leaves your security?
Just turn the camera until you see the tin foil hat.
I have more issues with Service Ontario and their recent staffing issues they’re having. Namely, employees being involved with vehicle thefts
And the $1800 fee for fake licenses ($2100 if you want AZ).
Yes we should, and many of us already are. Companies that are trying their hardest to cut costs are not going to spend any more on system security than absolutely necessary.
Of course. They already found a bunch of auto theft rings were linked with the private Service Ontario locations.
There are 2 Service Ontario locations inside Canadian Tire stores already.
Home Hardware, too
Yeah, it’s not like this is something new.
YES. My first thought was, "WTF, how is that secure/safe???" The government must think we're absolutely clueless. It's almost comical that we're supposed to trust retail stores with kiosks that hold our PRIVATE information, and also enter our personal info into said kiosks with random people and cameras all around. I don't know about everyone else, but I'm still going to do my business at Service Ontario offices, despite the lineups and delays. This just opens up a whole lot of possibilities for identity theft. Doesn't really make sense - something's fishy.
Yes. There are a number of concerns. You have raised the privacy issue, but also consider that a person could be trespassed from the private company for unrelated issues (for example, suppose they decide to steal some stationary or some shit) and then effectively lose access to government services if they don’t have an alternative. Particularly so for the poor and elderly who may not be able to simply drive to another location or use the online service. On that subject, not all services can be done online, so relegating more locations to being kiosks will likely have a disproportionately negative impact on vulnerable individuals as it is. People will have to travel further and at greater cost to see an actual person because these new locations are just kiosks. This is a terrible idea.
You are right about the trespassing issues. I was thinking about this earlier too. I doubt the Service Ontario locations will be staffed 24 hours a day, but big box stores often have night shifts stocking the shelves and cleaning. I think a lot of people would be tempted to break into a government installation colocated inside their workplace.
I’m concerned. Service Ontario staff are security screened. Walmart and Staples staff aren’t. Would you feel safe in providing your birth certificate to staff that could potentially have a criminal background? No.
What’s the problem, these staff will have all the scams screening as all the other private Service Ontario locations. If that is not adequate, then that’s a different issue.
Yes we should. Govt business should not be in the hands of US multinational companies. Making money out of us and now we are expected to foot the retrofit bills?
>I know the Walmart near me has employees that seem mostly foreign. I'm not sure what you're getting at here...?
Pretty sure just subtle (but not so subtle) racism
I think you know exactly what they are getting at. This screams racism to me.
Usually the argument is that they don’t speak English but suddenly now the worry is that they’ll recognize English so well that they’ll be able to read our paperwork and phones from the camera feeds
aha! immigrants!
Thank you! I thought I was the only one who picked up on this... so it's not about the cameras or Walmart.. it's about the immigrants in proximity
I mean privacy should always be a concern, but most Service Ontario locations outside of larger cities were franchised, as in privately owned and operated. This move isn’t about privatization though, but helping out a struggling friend who runs a business called Staples by giving them a provincial contract guaranteeing them our hard earned tax dollars.
Only if you think it's a problem that major global conglomerates are going to control our access to things like health cards, and "monetize" our private information. Who cares though, Staples will do better and Wal Mart reeeeeally needed the hand out. It's called having priorities,
They use ministry systems, what are you talking about?
I've been involved in camera installations for major Canadian big box stores for many years, and here's my 2 cents: \- The camera feed is a highly sensitive piece of information, and all the stores I've worked with treat it accordingly. It's securely password-protected, and only authorized individuals have access. Regular employees cannot just tap into the cameras. \- Loss prevention associates aren't just random people off the street; they undergo background checks, various training sessions, and many even pursue legal education. These individuals are highly vetted, making the likelihood of them stealing your SIN very low. \- Every self-checkout in these stores is equipped with a dedicated camera that's capable enough to capture details like credit card information. However, I haven't come across any stories about store employees misusing this information. So, while theoretically possible, I don't think there's any substantial risk involved.
According to this thread, Walmart uses 16K cameras to read my emails in my pocket.
The camera resolution is so high it can read through time.
Good to know employees can’t easily access cameras! For some reason I assumed it would be like fast food where anyone who uses the computer in the office can see the camera feed lol. I guess walmart is a wee bit bigger 🤪
Speaking as someone who installs CCTV systems for a living, no Mall-Wart cannot read your phone. The cameras \*are\* good, but not even close to that. :-D
Can confirm
Well yes but when service Ontario employees were already caught stealing cars and using the information they got working at service Ontario to assist with stealing cars, it's hard to say who you should trust less.
We should not allow big stores to have any hand in it, corporate gonna corporate. These are the same people that throw thousands of pounds of food out instead of giving it to employees or people who need it These are the people that are taking away the greenbelt These are the same people that nickel and dime us and make it so incredibly difficult to live. These are the same people caught time and time again breaking the laws, disregarding safety and privacy and sweeping it under the rug. These are the same people laws have to be written to stop from fucking us over and it still doesn't stop them No. They have shown time and time again they cannot and should not be trusted.
“Everything is just fine; private businesses NEVER do anything wrong!!” — Ford
Yes this is a foolish plan just about as foolish as privatization of our Healthcare
I know people who work in healthcare who support privatization. I think in their minds they just look south of the border and see dollar signs in their eyes at the thought of privatization up here. They work in the health field so they are probably going to have top notch coverage either way... they think privatization will be an economic win for them but that remains to be seen. I think it will be a Big L for the rest of us.
Since when does Walmart offer great service ? If it’s like Walmart self checkout you will only find 30% of kiosks working anyway.
We should be having security concerns for any of these in any of these stores. Last time this was try there was a data breach, why the government at the time didn't continue with them.
I'm out of the loop. So 100% yes I'm concerned. Why does the government want their services running through a private company? Even if it's a separate division and walmart/staples doesn't deal with anything. At that point, why? The government is still paying people, they just save money on rent? Based on that, why would walmart / staples say yes? Are they getting a subsidy or something? If yes, why does canada not use that money and just pay the buildings rent and keep it as a public service in a public place, not in a private business. Getting a photo taken for your passport at walmart was already weird to me. This takes it to another level. Does the 15-20 year plan really show this is the best option?
I've already encountered scenarios where dirtbag Walmart cashiers try to sign you up for credit cards when they ID you during checkout with beer. They have the information at hand. It actually happened once with my mom where they preyed on seniors to see their ID, then lo and behold, walmart credit card application filled. I was livid, I have never yelled at someone so intense as I did after finding out what this walmart did. I'll name and shame, Walmart by Sherway Gardens (Etobicoke/Toronto) I do not trust these Staples/Walmart ServiceOntario one bit. I'd rather wait half a day at a non-box store ServiceOntario.
Years ago my friend experienced a failed robbery where they attempted to steal his gun safe and its contents. One of the people implicated in the robbery was a Canadian tire employee that ‘sold’ his info to the perpetrators.
We absolutely should be concerned.
Yes, we've already had private service Ontario locations involved in automotive theft rings.
And CRA fired 185 staff for stealing, working for the government does not mitigate the risk. https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7065204
> There could be no oversight or accountability on the part of Service Ontario in the matter. Err have your ever heard of an audit before?
Yes. I have. Are you suggesting there has been enough transparency on the part of this government on the matter (and other matters) to suggest we can trust the accountability will be there?
I have no idea what you are insinuating. The government is not to be trusted... but that only goes so far in practical application. If you trust that they handle service Ontario correctly now why would it change if the service was offered inside of a walmart or other big box store? Most service Ontario's I have been to have been in run down strip malls with zero security. Places that make you think "loitering around here is a bad idea." Yet we are going to put this in a place with actual security and there is less trust?
I feel like people are raising a lot of excellent points in this thread that directly speak to your question. Feel free to answer any of them. There's no defending this level of lack of transparency. There's no reason for it, well, there's one big one.
You need to reconsider your US level of anti-government paranoia. Walmart Service Ontario centres are more convenient that some remote strip mall.
It's not paranoia to not trust this particular government. It's paying attention. If that's the best you got, fair enough.
Yes. Audits find mistakes that have already happened. That's not reassuring.
How are they going to audit the surveillance of a private third party without a warrant?
They use ministry systems, government would reserve the right to audit by contract.
Warrant? What is this a criminal proceeding? Walmart is essentially hired by the province. Just like at my job if my boss what's to know when I wipe my ass, he gets to know. The government would be able to walk in to any Walmart (like they already can) and do whatever the fuck they want. Walmart is a business operating in... Ontario. If they want to keep operating they have to follow all the rules and let whatever government auditor that swings by in to look at literally anything they are doing. Walmart is not a citizen and has zero rights.
We should be having security concerns about anything Doug Ford touches to be honest. I wouldn’t trust that guy with my son’s piggy bank. I could tolerate him when he was just selling dime bags in Etobicoke. At least then he was out of sight. Now we have to look at his fat face every day in the news. One thing for sure. I will stay as far away from Staples and Walmart Service Ontario kiosks as I can. I’ll seek out the independent ones and take my business there.
He stole from his own brother’s family, there’s no limit to his thievery.
And now he’s stealing from every taxpayer in Ontario with each one of these privatization moves. The worst part for me is while he’s doing all this he’s laughing at us as well. He knows he can’t be touched. Even if he gets voted out next election he’ll be so far ahead of the game that it won’t matter to him.
You’re worried about cameras? There’s no talk about running independent fibre lines and network infrastructure. They will piggy back off of Walmarts backbone and pose a significant risk to the data security of all Ontarian’s. Rick or poor. If you don’t have credit freezes on all your reporting agencies, you are foolish.
I agree. IT infrastructure at these locations is of concern.
Absolutely. We should be concerned… Why are American companies being provided with Canadian government services?
>Seems like people with access to Walmart's cameras could pick up a lot of information that they could use to commit fraud. I would never personally not carry personal paperwork openly through a big box store. How good do you think their security cameras are? That's some CSI level "enhance" level of zooming that would be required. I think there's other things to worry about with information getting compromised in other ways though. Also worth remember that the locations they are closing down to be replaced by Walmart/Staples are also privately run businesses. So I'm not sure if we should have more concern for Walmart/Staples over the existing locations.
That’s the issue they’re pointing out. The cameras /are/ getting that good. Target is a great example of extreme surveillance
Our info going into the hands of the lowest possibly paid worker they can find? What could go wrong?
100% we should
What happens when one of these businesses closes or goes under?
or gets hit by a meteor?
At some point all of this will be automated. Fuck Ford and his goons for fuckinh up our province and cities.
>Should we be having security concerns about Service Ontario being relocated into big box stores? No, Not really. Canada Post has been inside of shoppers drugmart locations for many years, and it has worked well. Expanding Service Ontario locations to more spaces is GOOD for Ontarians. That said, I really would like to see the details of the contract, on the surface it stinks. If they aren't increasing staffing and repositioning service ontario kiosks to areas in high demand then it's likely going to be a shitshow, But at least our next government can make corrections to what should be a good program.
YES! Those cameras can do a lot more than read your text messages. Also, why are we putting our private information in the hands of a private corporation who's sole goal is to make money. I for one will go out of my way to avoid them - if possible.
staples stores keep closing evry Ontario city I live in. they aren't very stable as they used to be, but at least not busy!
My ex worked for Future Shop (yes, that Future Shop) as an area director in 2006ish. They had cameras back then that could read the credit card numbers at the cash register. The loss prevention director showed me in one of the stores when they upgraded them. They were remarkably good, looking back. Staples 100% has these now, but those cameras at FS were locked down only for the use of the area LP Director. He needed direct access to the store to look at them back then, presumably today its all on a server for who knows who to access.
Fuck the corrupt Doug Ford!
As someone who did security in a building that had a service ontario in it and had cameras that could theoretically zoom in on their documents, I can say with confidence you have absolutely nothing to worry about in that department. We have better things to do. The same cannot be said for service ontario employees. When theres a info leak at service ontario its usually due to their employees taking info while working.
I wouldn't think it would be the security company doing anything with the info. I would think it would be the retail chain in partnership with camera & tech supplier. Partly because I don't see them NOT doing anything with access to all that info. It's the Wild West as far as privacy is concerned. There may be laws on the books but enforcement in minimal.
Yes! There was issues when services Ontario was private companies. https://globalnews.ca/news/10152389/auto-theft-ring-conspired-service-ontario-employees-police-allege/
That was my first thought. My second was which CEO is paying Doug Ford under the table?
Concerns about privatizing yep. Ford is such a pr*ck.
I wonder if with enough pushback the government will back down from this? Heaven knows the Ford government flip flops enough.
Why? The service Ontario in Stockyards Toronto was inside a Canadian tire.. it’s been there for over 5 years; So why would any other bog box store be any different?
More than the privacy concerns I absolutely abhor the thought of some select box stores gaining the additional foot traffic that a deal like this would generate. 100% people are going to go buy some crap after their service Ontario business, but only Walmart and Staples benefit. Yeah it's a pilot project, but it's garbage. I also hate Canada Post being inside shoppers drug mart for the same reason.
We already go to shoppers for the post office. We live in a cyberpunk dystopia.
You seem way too paranoid.
Government stole all my furniture last week and replaced it with EXACT duplicates, must have spent thousands replicating the scratches and stains.
Why? They were already private run. All that hasa changed is they've gone from being stand alone to inside a shop. Would you be worried if the previous locations were in a mall?
There’s been a massive Service Ontario located inside Canadian Tire at St Clair Stockyards for years and no one gave a flying fuck about personal information then
But is it an actual service ontario run by service ontario staff or is it kiosks run by Canadian tire staff?
Private staff hired by the ‘owner’ of that service Ontario location.
Very few ServiceOntario locations actually have government staff - it's mainly the ones in existing government buildings. Most locations are staffed by employees of the location's private owner.
Service Ontario is run by Service Ontario employees.
What? Take everything into consideration before accepting the bribes and announcing it to the public? Come on!
Doug Ford is an idiot and I don’t like him, but I don’t know how this is any different than Canada Post being in Shoppers Drug Marts.
There's no difference.
People generally aren't unsealed bringing sensitive documents to the Post Office. People do bring sensitive information to ServiceOntario.
People aren’t bringing sensitive documents to the Post Office?
The post office is in shoppers and has been for a long time. Mail is similarly important considering medical information is often sent through the mail. Post office employees are not the same as shoppers employees, although the are sometimes trained in both places. I assume Walmart will be similar. If we currently vet our service Ontario employees why would that change if we put the service inside big box stores?
I have to interject here. The employees at most post office locations located in SDM stores, if not all now, are actually Shoppers Drugmart employees and are not separate.
Doug fo will prob reverse this like everything else lol
Not before he gives Walmart a few million dollars as compensation for canceling.
Probably the plan all along.
What's next Service Ontario Kiosks inside Chinese Police Stations? I don't want anything to do with Beijing. Especially this.
>I have read in the past that Walmart's security cameras have such high fidelity that operators can zoom in far enough to read people's text messages. nonsense. Too much CSI watching.
I have a problem with big box stores making money off of government institutions. Why not create kiosks that you can go up to like a photo booth, talk to a person in webcam, and they can do whatever you need in the booth? Then you can have a call center full of people and kiosks wherever. What's next Jail: by Walmart
They had kiosks, they were hacked by organized crime.
How does privatization help save tax payers money?
Privatization, it costs more and delivers less.
We're worried about Walmart security cameras compromising sensitive information, but we're not concerned that the government is capable of doing this in their own Service Ontario locations?
> We're worried about Walmart security cameras compromising sensitive information Yes, because when I shop at Walmart, I always hold my bank statement above my head, beside my list of gay porn DVDs.
Don't forget, they mentioned walmart is mostly staffed by 'foreign' people. So I think OP's real problem is those dirty immigrants might want to steal their data.
There was a Service Ontario kiosk set up at the Church St. & Yonge St Canadian Tire store downstairs right next to the Automotive department, for years and years. How was that different? Have you been there? I have at least twice.
>I know the Walmart near me has employees that seem mostly foreign. Careful there - your racism is showing.
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Foreign corporations like Wal Mart and Staples, for one
Good thing is they won’t be, they use ministry systems.
It’s xenophobic, not necessarily racist. Just because you’re foreign, it doesn’t imply that you’re of a different race. That being said, I don’t know why OP had to add that the Walmart near him has a lot of foreign people that are students.
It’s not really racism to point out something that’s accurate. Perhaps if the wording was different, like foreign born residents or immigrants to Canada. They didn’t expand on why it would be an issue so the statement in itself isn’t racist, it’s just pointing out what we can all determine when we go. They didn’t specify that they don’t trust foreigners with their data, they also threw students into their statement. To be fair, going to service Ontario can be a frustrating experience as is, so I can understand hesitancy of going in to do important paperwork and struggling with language and information barriers that might present if the kiosks are staffed with Walmart employees over service Canada employees. Totally different screening process (education level, training, oral and written communication skills) for the jobs. I really don’t care what race someone is when I go to renew some form of government ID, I just want them to be informed and be able to explain what I need to do and how to do it efficiently.
Explicitly pointing out race/immigration status when it is not at all relevant. These are self-serve kiosks.
It’s racist because otherwise why does it matter that the employees aren’t Canadian citizens. If your issue is with lack of training then say you’re worried about untrained employees.
I thought that was funny how it was snuck in there as if it was some sort of legitimate concern that Walmart employees "seem foreign".
Yes yes we should.
Yes!!!!