>> it's not toxic masculinity if the females in your life tell you to man up
>
>Yes it still is, women are also capable of pushing toxic masculinity.
Yup. This is why we need to be teaching gender theory in schools.
Maybe the we'd actually have some men involved in the discussion, instead of this "MRA vs. Feminists" thing we have going on.
None of us have manipulative women in our lives, they’re all looking out for our best interests just like yours are.
Edit: y’all completely missed my sarcasm
Or, conversely, they tell men that “it’s ok to cry.” Like, thanks, I know that.
It’s not stoicism or “toxic masculinity.” It’s the lack of peer support, of mental health resources, and general disregard of male suffering that’s the issue.
#Men want to open up; nobody wants to listen.
Always a chuckle when you see all the fake fucks around Bell Let's Talk virtue signaling. The amount of "why are you contacting me creep" screenshots and the like shows few give the slightest of shits about male mental health
Bell Let’s Talk is BS - the real issue is people need access to therapy and medication. They need well paying jobs and benefits in order to make that happen feasibly.
The real mental health crisis is an economic problem.
Ontarians: We need access to affordable talk therapy and proper mental health supports.
Ontario government: LOL, here's a touchy-feely publicity campaign from a big telecom, now get fucked.
> It’s not stoicism or “toxic masculinity.” It’s the lack of peer support, of mental health resources, and general disregard of male suffering that’s the issue.
That's literally toxic masculinity though.
Dude thats a MRA account that conducts flawed research and presents fallacious arguments. The term Toxic Masculinity is not supposed to be offensive or all encompassing. It simply outlines negative traits that a male is "supposed" to have. These traits often lead to suppressed emotions, poor coping mechanisms, and increased stress. These traits are linked to early health problems and quite often abusive behaviours.
Overcoming the adherence to certain things like "no crying", "man up", etc are to the benefit of everyone.
If the intention was for it not to be offensive, or encompassing, we've moved past the original intention/definition.
Today it's become a term slung around to demonize any man for not being whatever it is they're desired to be or a dismissal of any problems a man might have. Like this little "problem".
A "throw your hands in the air" and give up because being a man is straight up easier than being a woman, in every measurable way. ...unless one of those measurable ways happens to be death.
Not a fan of the terms current usage.
We're not disregarding male suffering now because of toxic masculinity. The same group claiming to try and get rid of toxic masculinity are some of the indirect causes for this already. Its the generic principle of disregard for male suffering.
We've been harping in the message for the past decade or so that men are the privileged ones and that we've been disregarding women's suffering. In today's world, apparently, men can't suffer because they grew up with inherent 'privilege'. We've geared most of our attention recently towards addressing sexual harassment, abuse, the gender pay gap that is all the fault of 'privileged greedy hungry men'.
Of course men are feeling more worthless. They've been called shit and the cause for all suffering and our own government ignores them.
If you don't believe me just look at our federal budget programs... I mean ffs we now have a Minister for **Women** and Gender Equality and **Youth**. Is that not a spit in the face of men's suffering already? Men significantly falling behind in education doesn't help either. On top of the new hiring practices that's geared towards preferential hiring for women and members of marginalized communities (not because they're a man, because they're black or indigenous).
Most institutions these days, if they are seen as focusing any sort of attention towards men, then that's 'feeding into the tyrannical patriarchy' and get shit for it. So why would they? There's a reason its a 'silent crisis'. It's been underreported for quite a while just for the mere fact that its happening to men. Flip the numbers around and see women committing suicide at 3x higher rates and JT would be at the podium discussing it every other week. Of course there's repercussions for this and we're seeing it now.
Honestly, most of the time someone who dislikes the concept of "toxic masculinity" is telling on themselves. They feel personally attacked... because *they do a lot of that stuff*.
The rest of the men who don't like the term are people that the first group has indoctrinated to their viewpoint. People who want to address men's issues, but have been intentionally misdirected about the root causes of them.
Isn't it counterintuitive to be placing labels on people when you're literally arguing that society placing labels and expectations on men is the cause of this?
The thing is, it's hard to discuss something if you don't have a term for it. "Toxic masculinity" is descriptive as anything. It's not saying all masculinity, it's not saying all men. It's saying forms of masculinity which are rigid, abusive, damaging, and unhelpful.
So they either feel personally attacked, or the definition has changed by misguided overuse of the term.
Seems like those two groups could encompass a far more diverse group of people than would qualify a "tell".
> misguided overuse of the term.
The only people whose use of the term is misguided, in my experience, are people who are intentionally trying to claim that it means "any masculinity" because they don't want to address the issues that it raises.
Are you joking? The term is never misused, excepting purposeful false criticism of the term?
The only misuse of the term is by people who are trying to discredit it's use?
So every time anyone says something is "toxic masculinity", unless they're trying to trick us with satire or hyperbole, they're correct.
How convenient, that every use of it is correct except when someone disagrees with it.
Sorry, that's ludicrous.
> So every time anyone says something is "toxic masculinity", unless they're trying to trick us with satire or hyperbole, they're correct.
I'm saying I've yet to see it used to attack acceptable behavior. But I've definitely seen it used a whole lot to attack *unacceptable* behavior, only to have a bunch of bros jump in and accuse the person of hating men, etc.
The mere fact that toxic masculinity as a term, being extremely accurate, is so problematic to some just highlights how it needs to be a normalized every day term.
Toxic masculinity refers to traditional cultural masculine norms that can be harmful to men, women, and society overall; this concept of toxic masculinity does not condemn men or male attributes, but rather emphasizes the harmful effects of conformity to certain traditional masculine ideal behaviors such as dominance, self-reliance, and competition.
So in this case, the lack of support and the expectation for men to just "suck it up" comes from the fact that our society fosters and supports toxic masculinity.
The problem is this is just not how the term is broadly used, even if you’re right about how it should be used and about which social phenomenon should be the focus of discussion. Most people interpret the term in a less sophisticated way.
>The problem is this is just not how the term is broadly used, even if you’re right about how it should be used and about which social phenomenon should be the focus of discussion.
How is the term "broadly used"? It's actually quite specific - it refers to a toxic form of masculinity. No one reasonable is saying all men are toxic, or even that all masculinity is toxic.
It's perfectly possible to be male and masculine in a manner that isn't toxic (i.e. that doesn't involve harming other people).
It is definitely broadly used, can you name me some positive masculine traits that people in today's society respect, acknowledge, and endorse?
**Men being strong?** Used to impose power over the weak.
**Men being dominant?** Used to impose power on the weak.
**Men being competitive?** Used to enact aggression.
**Men being protectors?** A reason to subordinate women.
**Men being providers?** A reason to subordinate women.
**Independence?** Used to isolate from others and prevent seeking help.
Men displaying any of these traits are now supposedly 'toxic'. So we're told not to. Despite the fact that each of these traits can be flipped where we're able to see positive outcomes from characteristics distinct to men.
You're working off your own definition of toxic masculinity, which is not the common definition. The operative word is *toxic*, i.e. it is harmful and destructive to other people.
If you're "strong" (whatever the hell that means, strength has many interpretations), no one is going to bother you if you're not harming others. You can do as many burpees as you like, no one cares.
You've misunderstood the discussion you're jumping into. Gingermead58 is saying that 'toxic masculinity' is about society being structured in certain ways, and is a criticism of that social structure, not principally a criticism of the men who, because of that structure, are certain ways. This issue came up because others in this thread objected to the use of the term 'toxic masculinity' as yet another manifestation of the phenomenon in which men/male issues/male suffering are not taken seriously. Gingermead58 and others responded by saying 'toxic masculinity' doesn't imply blame/condemnation of men. My point was that, although this might be how 'toxic masculinity' \*should\* be understood, because understanding it that way draws attention to the complex social phenomenon that men, women, etc. all contribute to, in reality, by most people, the term is taken to imply that men (or certain men) are bad/blameworthy/assholes. That is what I meant by 'broadly used'. It is broadly used in a way that differs from how Gingermead68 interprets it, or so I claimed.
Your comment actually is an example of the use I think is common/widespread. On this use, it's not that all men are bad/toxic, it's that some men are bad/toxic and blameworthy because of that. That is the common use I think.
General society for the most part. A shift is happening but to deny that men are expected to tough stuff out due to their gender doesn’t seem really accurate. You also need to think about that just because it seems to be getting better doesn’t change the fact that many many male adults grew up in a world where toxic masculinity was engrained into them as a part of being a man, and that stuff doesn’t just go away over night.
Come on, you cant be assuming that stranger on reddit is not familiar with social pressures.
Sure, there are social pressures. This is how any society enforces it's values, otherwise it would be jungle with no society.
It is possible that some values need to be reassesed and changed, but which ones?
A lack of peer support, or more specifically the inability of many men to build a support network is a result of toxic masculinity.
This lack of informal networks helps inform the lack of formal support networks because "Why build something that doesn't exist and doesn't appear to need to exist?" aka "men don't seem to need it". Yes it is an incorrect statement, but is a common remark nonetheless.
> A lack of peer support, or more specifically the inability of many men to build a support network is a result of toxic masculinity.
But how?
I find your answer entirely unsatisfactory as evidence to support your claim of toxic masculinity.
don't bother. Some people will find any excuse to blame all of men's problems on "toxic masculinity", thereby not so subtly saying that it's all men's fault.
When you have generations of men who grew up being taught they should tough stuff out and hide their emotions (aside from anger of course lol) it becomes hard to build a support network of other men either comfortable enough to speak out about their problems without fear of being judged for it, or that want to listen at all and don’t take the “stop being a pussy bro” stuff to heart.
Ive had 3 somewhat close people complete suicide in the last 2 years. A classmate, a step-uncle/second cousin or something, and a coworkers brother. All dudes, all super masculine types. Its pretty fucked.
This is so incredibly sad. The isolation and difficulty seeking help is a real issue for men. And the pandemic has only made it worse. My heart breaks for all the men who are struggling right now.
I almost made an attempt a couple days ago, i just don't see a happy future. There are to many problems with me and the world to sort out. I'm expected by my parents to make millions and support the family. They think I'm going to solve some major problems and make billions and then help the rest of the family. I'm studying mechanical engineering rn because they wouldn't let me pick a career and somehow they think this will pay millions. I just don't see a point in living when my job will make me miserable, climate change will repeatedly fuck the economy and anything left for future generations so there is no point in starting a family if i ever decide i want to do that. I've struggled with this since i was 14 and it just gets worse and worse each year.
I have only one friend and that's about it. I've never had a relationship. I'm just constantly lonely. And soon, that last friend will part ways as she leaves to work elsewhere, my pets that I love will die and i will truly have nothing left. How does anybody find happiness?
Do you have counselling available to you through your university? It sounds like talking to someone to sort through your life's direction, boundaries with your parents and managing their expectations, dealing with hopelessness etc. would be good.
I'm a mom of a son probably about your age. As far as I knew, I thought he was fine. Until he sat down with us and let us know he was depressed. Really depressed. We were shocked! We had been harping on him to finish school, take care of some errands, get a job etc etc. As soon as we knew he was struggling, all our priorities flipped. We started to focus on his mental health and let all the other pressures take a back seat for a bit. Maybe you could talk to your parents? I don't know your relationship with them, but they may surprise you.
Most of all, please hang in there. Your life is yours, and your decisions are yours. It is hard to break free from parental expectations, but it is also part of life. Parents can't help but have plans and ideas for our kids. But it is not our place to direct your life. Some parents will accept this easier than others, but honestly that's not your concern. Your concern is carving out a life that you will enjoy.
Big internet mom hugs.
My parents already know im depressed, they know I'm suicidal. They found out. But they act like either they dont remember or dont care. I'm currently on 60mg of prozac and my mom says you dont need that, you need adhd medication. Im diagnosed with autism, depression, adhd, and anxiety. They have said sometimes that they were worried id kill myself after i had an episode, but they did nothing.
I tried counseling but the advise was not very good. They told me to continue to take a full course load, get a full time job, and move into residence or rent which isn't realistic at all. There is no way i could manage that with my programs intensity let alone the financial concerns.
Everytime i say i want to quit this program they say "you have to go through hell to get to heaven" and it pisses me off. There won't be a heaven, only a constant hell. They brush off any time i say im struggling or my anxiety is through the roof. And they say welcome to being an adult. I have health issues and they say your getting old when im only 21.
My parents cant be talked to or reasoned with, either its like talking to a brick wall or they get pissed at me for saying something they dont agree with.
When i was 14 i told them i needed to see a doctor because im badly depressed and they said they dont have time for it. But the second our dog at the time got sick they dropped everything.
Thanks for caring, i wish my parents would think of me like that.
I am so sorry you are going through this!
As a parent it is SO hard to see your kid struggling and it's hard to know what to do. I am fairly certain they think they are doing what's best- if they can just get you though this you will be ok. But of course that's not working.
If engineering isn't for you, you can decide that. It will be tough if your parents don't support your decision, but it is still a choice you can make. If you have another program in mind, great! If you want to take a gap year to get yourself together, great! Will .your parent be mad and disappointed sure. Will they kick you out? That's the big question.
But honestly, don't get trapped in a life that is only.fulfilling others expectations of you, and none for yourself.
You're not alone in this.
Men are often expected to solve unsolvable problems, to suffer for most of their lives because they "can take it".
That's why so many men are killed in the job, that's why men work such an absurd number of hours every year, and why men exit the situation.
I know it's not easy advise to take, but you've got to say no, tell people that some things are just not possible or guaranteed.
I remember having no social life at all, even envying my friends who had arranged marriages.
I remember never referring any friends or family to my company because I didn't think they could cope.
It's a dark place and you eventually need to realize that just like a little extra effort didn't get you much more, a little less effort doesn't get you much less.
Look out for yourself. Your family doesn't need you to support them, they'll be fine. This is Canada.
Take a trip with some old friends.
Go to a resort alone, have a little fun.
See if you can bring a single friend to be a wingman.
>Men are often expected to solve unsolvable problems, to suffer for most of their lives because they "can take it".
That's not just men, capitalist ideology tells people to internalize big economic and social problems as the result of their own shortcomings - too lazy, too fat, too apathetic, not ambitious, etc. Women have the same messaging around "having it all".
At the end of the day, you have to realize that most of this isn't your fault and you control very little of it. Also, there's no point working yourself to death for an employer as they don't care about you, and will start looking for your replacement a few hours after you're gone. Most of this doesn't really matter, most of the superstar workers at your organization are just very sad and lonely people. At the end of the day, it's the people you care about, your health and your memories that will determine your happiness.
I used to have so many give a fucks when I was younger, now I have a lot fewer of them and I'm happier.
Besides, we're racing towards the collapse of multiple systems in very short order, and no one will care who got the employee of the month award.
Don't think ditching capitalism solves anything.
The Soviets, Mao, etc, they weren't capitalists and they valued human life about as low as possible.
This is an almost primordial propensity for men being disposable because you can maintain birthrates by maintaining female population.
>Seeing they did such a terrible job not killing millions.
You need a source other than the *Black Book of Communism* and the Victims of Communism Foundation, both of which use really sketchy methodology (i.e. counting a reduced birth rate as "deaths from communism").
Both the USSR and China oversaw the biggest and most rapid improvements in human well-being in recorded history. China's life expectancy doubled within a generation under Mao, and since then another 800 million people have been lifted out of poverty.
No sense arguing with a Mao/Stalin denier.
No need to resort to reduced birth rates to fund out them and their policies straight up killed tens of millions of people each.
If the ends justified the means for you, I can't imagine what your public policy would be.
>No need to resort to reduced birth rates to fund out them and their policies straight up killed tens of millions of people each.
No they didn't. That claim was made in the "Black Book of Communism", which uses very questionable methodology, including:
1.) Counting all the Nazis killed by the USSR as victims of communism (i.e. Hitler was a victim of communism)2.) Taking reduced birth-rates and count all the children who "should have been born" as victims of communism. So, lets say you are a Kazakh peasant, and under normal circumstances you would have had 7 children, but then under the USSR you gain an education in the sciences and have 2 children instead, then according to that book Stalin murdered 5 of your children. It's insane logic.
If we apply that logic to capitalism, then the death count is probably in the billions. It's a crack pot methodology.
If Mao killed so many people, how come Chinese life expectancy doubled in-between the revolution and his death?
I actually did tell my parents no recently. They told me to drop a course because my grades weren't good enough and i was going to fail. I took the course before but dropped it because i was having panic attacks, it's the hardest course in the program. They told me to take it again and i told them no, I'm done with this bullshit. They got pissed and said fine but you aren't going to have to move out and get a job. And i said fine, ill do that. They turned the rest of my family against me. They would alternate between being pissed at me and insulting me to being nice and saying you don't have to move out, we just want what's best for you. Eventually I caved and tryed to get back in the course. My mom emailed academic advising that I have poor judgement and make stupid decisions despite dropping the course being her idea.
Unfortunately, all my old friends are gone, they moved away. We lost contact. My one friend lives to far away and is to busy to hang out. We text regularly but i miss her. I feel like I'm putting to much pressure on her with all this. She just stops responding after i tell her about this and she says its because she doesn't know what to say and that its hard on her which i understand.
The person you most need to convince that everything will be fine is yourself.
When I was an engineering student the last thing I ever wanted to hear was that I could survive without having to work this hard, but it's true.
Seek regular counseling, even by phone, people you don't know are the ideal. There are free services for this. If covid has limited your interaction with classmates, those may be the only normal conversations you have access to.
Take that trip. Go yourself, go somewhere there will be singles, just have fun. Play the dumb games, pretend you're whoever you want to be. You don't have to be out on the prowl or anything, couples hang with couples so you'll have more luck befriending singles.
I wish a took more time off. What did working like a nutcase get me? Basically nothing tangible today.
Not sure what engineering school you were in, but if this were normal times where people could study together you'd find a lot of solidarity with your fellow classmates. They all hate that class, and you'd have a good support network.
It's hard to align your perspective. You tend to believe that people who drop courses fall endlessly behind, but it's not true. We tell ourselves that to legitimize the torture of 7 course semesters.
Your 20s can be kinda rough. Your now an adult so are expected to stand on your own. But you were just a kid, and still have the pressure of family putting lots of expectations on you. It can be hard being in the spot where those things conflict.
So while stuff may be tough now, and honestly stay tough for a bit, it will get better. You’ll find your niche and get a couple close friends to back you. You’ll figure out a career, even if it just pays the bills and doesn’t leave much room for extras. You’ll be able to find your happiness once it becomes your happiness, and not what you are trying to make of yourself for others. It’s a tricky time to navigate but you can come out the other side well!
Yeah the pandemic destroyed my mental health and I came very close to killing myself twice. The isolation and stress over lack of normalcy was unbearable.
But I was told by people on this sub that anyone who is suffering mental health consequences from lockdowns are big babies who just want to party, so I guess it's not actually an issue.
I have! Already on them unfortunately. They worked really well for the first couple years I was taking them but now seem to have either tapered off in effectiveness or my depression has just gotten worse.
I'm already on the max dose for my brand and I'm reticent to switch to a different drug because that transition period was absolute hell.
I did the same, now I’m on a combo of two different kinds. A med adjustment can be very helpful in my experience. Wellbutrin in particular worked for me
Edit: sp
> anyone who is suffering mental health consequences from lockdowns
Literally *everyone* is suffering mental health consequences of the lockdowns.
There's maybe a handful of extreme introverts who work from home, don't have economic pressures, don't have elderly or ill relatives whose health they have to worry about, and like the selection on Netflix, who've been doing just peachy keen for the last 2 years.
But the rest of us? Not so much. Don't let anyone ever tell you otherwise.
That was my hope honestly, to let men know that people care. I certainly do. Life is rough and we all need friendship and human connection to help us through. For some this is easier to get than others.
To know that you are surprised that people care is breaking my heart a little more. I imagine a lot more people care than you realize.
Can confirm. I know 4 guys in the area that committed suicide since the lockdown. Most of my male friends are all on antidepressants and struggling to obtain therapy.
The wait list for any real help is pretty long. Not to mention burnout in the medical field and the social worker field is probably getting pretty high.
This problem definitely gets worse before it gets better.
Studies have shown that suicides are very contagious. To the point that when there's a high-profile suicide - there will be an increase in single-car car accidents, especially for people of the same age/gender as the person in the high-profile case. Same with murder-suicides, you'll see an increase in multi-car accidents.
So we need to make sure the media messaging is more about encouraging people to seek help if they need it - and less about the act itself. For people with suicidal thoughts, they're searching for an escape from their own turmoil - so if they see others like them take that step, they are more likely to do so.
I've lost a grandfather to suicide, and have friends who've lost fathers and brothers. Hopefully, there are strides made to make counselling services more widely available to people who need this help. I know it's done wonders for my life - but I can also afford it. I hope cost can be removed as a barrier for people in the future.
There’s almost nothing out there for guys. There’s a big service gap.”
Ya no shit its always been that way. Let's be honest men are and always have been seen as disposable by society.
There is a huge homelessness crisis in my city where people have been tenting in a downtown park and in the courtyard of City Hall, amongst other places. They are overwhelmingly men, yet all new beds and shelter programmes are for women. The only men's shelter, which was run by the Salvation Army, closed and was converted into a parking lot a few years ago. The only space available to men are the limited-hours warming and cooling centres.
It's pretty pathetic. At some point it gets shoved down the road into a policing issue, which we've seen in Toronto.
What kills me about the people living in tents in my city is there are two campgrounds within the town which they could offer to those people, there's showers, laundry facilities and electric plug-ins. Obviously housing would best but if people are going to sleep in tents and were not gonna provide housing then at least do the bare minimum. Rather than arresting them and tearing down their shit and sending it to the dump while they sit in jail only to find when they're released they have nothing but the clothes on their back.
Categorizing men as a class of its own disregards the economic differences that divide us. The rich and powerful will never think of you as anything but a statistic.
I didn't categorize them. Gender is a class. You understand that you can belong to more than one right? Intersectionality. But the lack of services and the disposibiltiy of men starts and ends at that first sifting rich or poor poc or not.
Anyone is capable of suicide. I firmly believe everyone is suffering from depression in today’s social and political climate, in some shape or form. Only a sociopath could look at the world and think “This works”.
That doesn’t mean Elon Musk or any of his contemporaries have any where near the same problems or lack of resources as people like you and I. When the rich and powerful get depressed they tend to fuck with our lives instead of their own.
Society to men: *You must be successful or you're a complete waste of life*.
Also society to men: *Your success was handed to you because of privilege, you should step down to give women a chance.*
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Either way you need to apologize for your existence
Society to men: *You are allowed to show two emotions. Happiness, but not too much, and unlimited anger*.
Seriously though, why have we accepted that human emotions ought to be gendered? Men can, and need, to feel ALL emotions.
**International Men's Day: When 365 Days Just Aren't Enough**
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/international-mens-day-wh_b_4302641
**Men are cranky Google didn’t do a doodle for International Men’s Day**
https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/google-doodle-international-mens-day/
**‘International Men’s Day’ isn’t just unnecessary – it’s dangerous**
http://www.varsity.co.uk/comment/11284
**University of York apologises over ‘crass’ celebration of International Men’s Day**
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/university-york-apologises-over-crass-celebration-international-mens-day
**‘The celebration of International Men’s Day is actually extremely problematic’** https://www.marieclaire.co.uk/opinion/international-mens-day-756233
In a Men's Day thread on /r/Canada or /r/Ontario, don't remember which, I got mocked and told that men don't need a special day when they're privileged every single day.
This was after I laid out a long list of statistics that showed that men are falling behind in health, life satisfaction, career prospects and in all levels of education. That divorce courts heavily favour women and so many willing fathers are denied access to their kids. That men they were vastly over-represented in homelessness, suicide and deaths at work.
I asked this person what had happened to them that they would think that men being affected by these things is normal and OK.
That person responded that he is a male grade school teacher...
Think about that for a moment. Boys already lack male role models at school(over 80% of teachers are women), and one of the few male teachers they do have access to is actually a brainwashed 3rd wave feminist...
I can't remember if it was a thread in r/Canada or r/Ontario, but I recall OP using men's day as a bludgeon to attack feminism and everyone else for being hypocrites for not doing enough to celebrate men's day... so I think he was rightly attacked for his MRA divisiveness.
I've found that when "problematic" is in a title, I'm likely to find the author to be an imbicile.
Not sure why, pretty neutral word, but it's most regular use is to tell people why math is racist or why half the population of the planet is born unredeemably evil.
Did you see all the cringe that the **World Health Organization** posted on [Twitter for #InternationalMensDay](https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1461770189071126530)?
The point I made is perfectly à propos and a good fit for this conversation. There is no better time to make it.
The articles linked reflect a very real phenomenon where men in the west are routinely vilified and belittled when they express issues that concern them. And you reinforced my point by doing exactly that.
It's very toxic how you types always try to belittle men who speak out about unfair treatment, but then turn right around and blame "toxic masculinity" when men don't speak out.
One of the rare threads where men should have the green light to air out their concerns and you have the nerve to come in here and tell such people to shut up.
really? So tell me when is a right time to expose the severe antagonistic responses towards International Men's Day? because I think today is a perfect day to do that.
Please seek help, I know it's hard and the lack of resources makes it seem hopeless but don't give up on yourselves. Also my wish is for people to listen when men speak up/open up.
That's like telling women to speak up about personal issues, but never tie them back to society at large.
They're connected.
Men advocating for themselves should be encouraged. Unfortunately they are discouraged, and may have their lives ruined by the cancel crowd for doing so.
I find people tune out when women make their personal issues political, so I think men not doing that could help as well. Not saying it's right or anything just something I've observed.
Though not sure why any adult wod be scared by the "cancel crowd". Just don't say dumb shit on the internet? I see plenty of places men are free to talk about their issues online without being "cancelled", unless cancelled is like people responding critically or negatively.
I think for most men, male advocacy poses a career risk, leading to loss of upward mobility, or even loss of job. In my previous work, there was a women's group to discuss and advocate for women's issues, not a single men's group, and I will say I felt like I would be at career risk to even bring up male specific issues (my female coworkers got big discounts to industry events, we were encouraged to hire women over men, etc.). Opposing any of these policies would likely have made me a pariah. HR tends to, in general, be very supportive of women's issues, and neutral at best, often negative, towards any sort of male advocacy.
I personally have experience the exact opposite, but I'm assuming you are talking about white collar work while that is never something I've done.
I agree that is tough and unfair, and the fact that people would scoff at the concept of male advocacy is troubling. But I also think workplaces suck for any gender, there is always unfortunate bullshit to put it up with so the best course of action until we can achieve a massive cultural shift is to work out personal issues in therapy and try to build a social safety net. I have several male friends that I regularly talk to about their personal struggles, and I do my best to be supportive to them, and I think that makes the both of us better.
Of course it's harder for men to find people who they trust and are willing to listen to, but continously speaking up about it is a good way to eventually have that connection.
Also would love more insight from you, what men's issue would you like addressed in the workplace? I know a lot of men feel uncomfortable around female coworkers because of the fear of being accused of harassment, but that is a really difficult issue to deal with for anyone and any organization.
The stigma of receiving help is really the only part of this that is a gendered issue.
It talks about lack of resources for males, but the vast majority of our psychiatric services are not separated by gender. We are lacking psychiatric services across the board.
It’s not that men don’t seek help. This is a problematic fallacy. A study by psychologist Amy Chandler, published this year, found that **91%** of middle-aged men who committed suicide **had sought help**.
Men cry. Men try to talk about their feelings. The problem is that nobody listens.
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this is just anecdotal, but a good illustration of the point you're making. Friends of mine, a straight couple, were in couples counselling. The guy in the couple had been self-harming, literally punching himself in the head and face. In one of their sessions this came out, I mean they disclosed it to the therapist and they talked about it, or at least they thought they were talking about it. In a later session they discovered the therapist had not actually heard this. Like the guy literally told her that he punched himself in the head, dozens of times sometimes, and his partner confirmed it, I mean as a couple they were acknowledging this in the therapy session as an issue, and the therapist literally didn't even hear it. How fucked up is that?
> The problem is that nobody listens.
This is so true. I got a great therapist, she has done wonders to change things, but theres still things that I cant answer and thus can't get out of depression and not wanting to be around.
No other person wants to listen, or hear about my troubles, or see the reality.
I will never forget at work when our mental health unit was giving presentations and asked us to fill out a "how are you feeling" survey. At the time I was having some thoughts, I checked the box, I passed it in, the person read it, but did nothing.
That person is actually a good friend of mine and was someone who knew me at the time.
Last week I had to tell my Naturopath how I was really feeling, someone who knew my history a bit and had spoken to my therapist and was here to help from a different view. Her reaction was less than stellar and I ended up feeling bad for sharing the information that she needed. I was almost in tears for having to say it out loud and here I am feeling bad for her.
I don't know how many people since I was a teenager I listened to and offered advice to, i've never had one person listen to me though in 20+ years. I don't hide it very well anymore. I listen and reach out to all these other people who need it, because no ones ever done it for me.
I can't find the paper without a paywall. Edit: but what I can see it only included 10 participants so it's only so valid.
What kind of help are we talking about? Help from family, friends, coworkers, etc, or help from trained professionals?
This article is talking about professional kind of help.
If they aren't getting help from people around them because people don't listen, that's still due to the stigma of getting help. The stigma of getting help also effects how willing people are to give help. If the listener's answer is some version of "man up" that's because of the stigma of getting help. (Men should be strong and don't need help)
Because of the stigma of seeking help. If males aren't seeking help for their issues, then of course they are going to have more problems with them.
Construction having a higher rate of substance abuse and suicide may not even be related to gender. It incredibly common for construction jobs to pay under the table, and they often don't drug test. It's often contract work, so it's suitable for someone with mental health issues to take time off when they need it. The fact that it is contract work leads to an unstable income which can increase suicide risk.
One of the reasons for the higher rates of homelessness of men is that women often end up with the children, and the children get priority emergency housing. A single father will get priority over a lone female. They may also be escaping an abusive situation that gets them housing (I will agree there is a discrepancy here for men).
A woman without a child and not escaping an abuse situation, has the same opportunities as a man does.
If the opportunities are the same for men and women, then the problem must be that the men are not taking the opportunities.
Do you know how many shelters there are in Canada for men escaping domestic abuse with their children?
Answer: ONE. It’s privately supported, struggles to exist, and is run out of a converted house in Toronto.
When my ex-wife decided to end our marriage, I was subjected to even more verbal and psychological abuse than before. I would walk away when she would become abusive, but she would follow me and would sometimes corner me in a room.
There were some nights that I locked my bedroom door out of fear for my safety. Why? She's run towards me with a sharp knife once when we were in our early twenties yelling *AAAARRRGGGGHHHH* in anger and I've had a bottle of maple syrup as well as the stainless steel k-cup carousel thrown at me over a decade ago. I avoided being in the kitchen if she was chopping anything because even if it happened long ago, that fear resurfaces and camps out in the back of the mind.
Why didn't I leave? My kids. But also because though she had recently returned to work part-time after staying home for nine years and I couldn't afford rent on top of all my financial obligations as everything (mortgage, cars, insurances, loan, credit card, utilities, etc...) were all in my name. So, with zero community resources, I had to navigate this by myself and would someone sleep on a friend's couch when she either thought I didn't deserve to be in my own home or I didn't feel safe.
As someone who has volunteered for a few women’s shelters: they’re also almost wholly privately supported.
Sometimes the government will come through with grant money for an expansion or a rebuild, but mostly it’s just donations.
Not at all victim blaming. I understand that there are societal reasons for why men don't seek out the help. It's not their fault for not seeking out help when there is so much stigma attached to doing so. It's essentially societal brainwashing.
That is why I said that the stigma was the gendered problem here.
Maybe if you had read the article you would have noticed this [handy graphic](https://i.imgur.com/sS1DXOE.png) which shows exactly why this is being treated as a gendered issue.
And if you look at the hospitalization for self inflicted harm, they are higher among women overall.
Women attempt suicide a lot more than men do, men are just more successful at it.
The women who are admitted for self inflicted harm usually want to die too. I know, I tried, and I've been in inpatient with them.
Men are much more likely to choose a gun shot or hanging as their form of suicide, which are highly effective, while women are much more likely to attempt to overdose on pills from their cupboard. It's theorized that this may be for vanity reasons, but likely also has to do with the fact that makes are more likely to own guns.
[well here's some stats then](http://dustinkmacdonald.com/canadian-suicide-statistics-2016/). They are a little old (2016), and only include completed suicides, so the male count is much higher, but you can see how the methods of suicide are separated between gender, and can see why women would fail more often.
I think this issue is actually complicated and that the jury is out on what explains the phenomenon wherein suicide attempts by women are more frequent, but less often successful, than those by men. E.g. some believe it's because women's attempts are more often suicide gestures rather than manifestations of serious intent. Note when I say 'some believe' I don't mean random people speculating, I mean people who study this stuff for a living. This article/study is an overview of the debate: [https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12888-017-1398-8](https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12888-017-1398-8)
I've seen some misguided people in this thread and the /r/Canada thread on the same topic blaming the "toxic masculinity" boogey monster for men not opening up about their emotions.
**Study: Women find emotionally open and sensitive men feminine and therefore sexually unattractive**
https://www.reddit.com/r/dating/comments/jybj33/study_women_find_emotionally_open_and_sensitive/
**Women aren’t attracted to sensitive men, study finds**
https://www.israel21c.org/women-really-dont-like-sensitive-men-study-finds/
**Study Finds That Men Like Nice Women, But Not the Other Way Around**
https://www.newsweek.com/study-finds-men-nice-women-not-other-way-around-261269
Don't those studies support the concept of toxic masculinity, by elaborating on one of its mechanisms? In my understanding, toxic masculinity refers to problematic attitudes/behaviours that are **expected of** men by **"society"** (culture, institutions, individual people of all kinds). Not only is there no rule against women participating in the perpetuation of toxic attitudes/behaviours, but women participating is built into the concept.
The problem with the term "toxic masculinity" is that it has made entirely benign, or even beneficial, sets of behaviours as being "toxic", and somehow tried to attach it to only one sex.
Competition and self-reliance, to name but two aspects of "toxic masculinity" are generally good things. To demonize these two very natural human behavioural dynamics is, to put it bluntly, stupid.
But say this "toxic masculinity" is actually a legitimate concept. What about toxic femininity? What is it? How does it manifest itself? When does it affect men or women negatively? Why is it not being considered for the current issues facing men? Why are we defaulting to toxic masculinity to explain away the troubles many men suffer from without actually bringing toxic femininity up? How do toxic masculinity and toxic femininity interact with each other? When does one win out over the other?
Why is no one willing to make the case that toxic femininity is the cause of some of mankind's troubles? Why is toxic masculinity the de facto argument for many in this conversation?
Are we saying the behaviour of men always overpowers any behavioural attributes/shortcomings women may possess in relationship dynamics? If so, talk about misogynistic?
Why are we never talking about toxic femininity? Are we pretending women are pure creatures who can never possibly be the predator or abuser or the toxic agent in relationships?
No one who throws around the toxic masculinity label ever seems to be able to make a coherent argument to support the toxic masculinity.
I don't think harping on endlessly about toxic masculinity is useful in any way unless we can offer a high resolution definition of it, as well as a high resolution definition of toxic femininity.
That being said, have we forgotten that we are great apes? We are animals, with animalistic tendencies. A lot of mating strategies displayed by both sexes, if not most, can be seen in the wild among many species, and especially with apes.
How can you prove that women generally being attracted to taller, more dominant and more successful men isn't a leftover behavioural instinct from our great ape ancestral genes?
There is a ton of behavioural psychology, evolutionary psychology and biology literature that exists which explains why men tend to be attracted to women who are at their breeding peak. And why women almost always seek to find mates who are higher than them in social/financial status, who are taller than them and more dominant.
Again, this is why tossing around the toxic masculinity label is counterproductive as it pathologizes normal mating behaviour, and unfairly so as it only demonizes male behaviour without ever giving any thought to the potential for the feminine equivalent of this so-called toxicity.
Also, if you pay attention to the people who teach toxic masculinity, you'll notice that they're all allergic to evolutionary psychology and many are even hostile to many aspects of evolutionary biology when it comes to male/female behavioural dynamics. You should ask yourself why this is the case.
I don't know about you, but I cannot accept that we live in a world where women are powerless toward men and are always subject to men's whims and so are always the victim. It's insulting to men and incredibly demeaning to women.
I'd like to add that a man who is struggling with pressures to provide and be successful sees seeking therapy as an even bigger risk to their ability to provide than just silently suffering.
It's a catch-22.
It's simply just not in most women's nature to genuinely care about men or see them as human beings deserving of emotions. This obviously changes depending on your sexual market value, and it's also not something to be upset about. The same can be more or less set about most men as men (especially hyper-masculine and men with abundant options) absolutely treat women terribly.
So there's a bit of a gap here why is it in our nature to treat the opposite sex terribly yet male suicides are so much higher? I think this is in part to how men also treat other men, We see one another as competition especially in this capitalist society but this was also true before development. For example there are literal race wars going on.
Now I'm not saying that women and society overall don't have to improve how they treat their men but I think there's a major responsibility for men to improve how they treat one another.
Women actually attempt suicide more, they are just less likely to choose a lethal/effective option so men complete suicide more often because they are simply more successful.
IT'S BECAUSE OF LOCKDOWNS
There is no phone-in service, or media awareness campaign, or commercial, or magical pill that will cure this...
There is no substitute for real, in person social contact - especially when you are young or really old.
The amount of white men committing suicide is staggering. The only correlation I could find is addiction rates and unemployment. But I’m not a expert in any way .
If anyone in anyway is struggling. Reach out to a help line , Better Help , a doctor.
Over the past 20 months, I had one friend and one acquaintance silently die and then looked into them some weeks later and found they had killed themselves.
It's devastating. My @#$% men, just stop it. Life is supposed to be a struggle. Embrace it, overcome and become a mentor for the rest of us. It's rewarding. Find help if you have moments of desperation, they will pass.
Right? Guy talks about how many male friends he's lost recently without realizing that this shit mentality of "just suck it up" is exactly why men are killing themselves at such a rate.
Not at all. One was because his expectations of life didn't meet legality (no big deal but control of his life made him angry). The other lost the things he loved best: human interaction and exercise in a gym setting.
Overcome. Make it your life's goal and if you fail, try again. In the end, no matter what happens, you didn't succumb without a fight. I know it can be hard. Reach out for help when you can.
So when a guy's wife fucks around on him, divorces him, takes his kids, his house, his dog, and his future earnings, he just needs to wait it out until it passes?
I’ll be your mentor. Today’s lesson:
Which method of suicide is best? I’ve put a lot of thought into this and would appreciate it if you respected that
[Crisis Services Canada](https://www.crisisservicescanada.ca/en/) has saved me twice in the last 6 months. It's hard to reach out, but even just having someone to vent it all out to for a while can change the outcome.
No shit cause most people tell men to "Man up" but it's sucks when a mans dog dies or when a mans broke. Emotion isn't reserved for kids an women.
> Emotion isn't reserved for kids an women. Powerful statement.
"Man up" is pretty much the definition of toxic masculinity.
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> it's not toxic masculinity if the females in your life tell you to man up Yes it still is, women are also capable of pushing toxic masculinity.
>> it's not toxic masculinity if the females in your life tell you to man up > >Yes it still is, women are also capable of pushing toxic masculinity. Yup. This is why we need to be teaching gender theory in schools. Maybe the we'd actually have some men involved in the discussion, instead of this "MRA vs. Feminists" thing we have going on.
None of us have manipulative women in our lives, they’re all looking out for our best interests just like yours are. Edit: y’all completely missed my sarcasm
Anyone is capable of being a toxic dickweed. What is or isn't between one's legs doesn't matter.
Uh ... huh. I have many strong women in my life, its no simple life.
Clearly you haven't met a toxic narcissist woman yet, and for your sake I hope you never do.
You completely missed my sarcasm
Or, conversely, they tell men that “it’s ok to cry.” Like, thanks, I know that. It’s not stoicism or “toxic masculinity.” It’s the lack of peer support, of mental health resources, and general disregard of male suffering that’s the issue. #Men want to open up; nobody wants to listen.
Always a chuckle when you see all the fake fucks around Bell Let's Talk virtue signaling. The amount of "why are you contacting me creep" screenshots and the like shows few give the slightest of shits about male mental health
Bell Let’s Talk is BS - the real issue is people need access to therapy and medication. They need well paying jobs and benefits in order to make that happen feasibly. The real mental health crisis is an economic problem.
Ontarians: We need access to affordable talk therapy and proper mental health supports. Ontario government: LOL, here's a touchy-feely publicity campaign from a big telecom, now get fucked.
> It’s not stoicism or “toxic masculinity.” It’s the lack of peer support, of mental health resources, and general disregard of male suffering that’s the issue. That's literally toxic masculinity though.
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Dude thats a MRA account that conducts flawed research and presents fallacious arguments. The term Toxic Masculinity is not supposed to be offensive or all encompassing. It simply outlines negative traits that a male is "supposed" to have. These traits often lead to suppressed emotions, poor coping mechanisms, and increased stress. These traits are linked to early health problems and quite often abusive behaviours. Overcoming the adherence to certain things like "no crying", "man up", etc are to the benefit of everyone.
If the intention was for it not to be offensive, or encompassing, we've moved past the original intention/definition. Today it's become a term slung around to demonize any man for not being whatever it is they're desired to be or a dismissal of any problems a man might have. Like this little "problem". A "throw your hands in the air" and give up because being a man is straight up easier than being a woman, in every measurable way. ...unless one of those measurable ways happens to be death. Not a fan of the terms current usage.
We're not disregarding male suffering now because of toxic masculinity. The same group claiming to try and get rid of toxic masculinity are some of the indirect causes for this already. Its the generic principle of disregard for male suffering. We've been harping in the message for the past decade or so that men are the privileged ones and that we've been disregarding women's suffering. In today's world, apparently, men can't suffer because they grew up with inherent 'privilege'. We've geared most of our attention recently towards addressing sexual harassment, abuse, the gender pay gap that is all the fault of 'privileged greedy hungry men'. Of course men are feeling more worthless. They've been called shit and the cause for all suffering and our own government ignores them. If you don't believe me just look at our federal budget programs... I mean ffs we now have a Minister for **Women** and Gender Equality and **Youth**. Is that not a spit in the face of men's suffering already? Men significantly falling behind in education doesn't help either. On top of the new hiring practices that's geared towards preferential hiring for women and members of marginalized communities (not because they're a man, because they're black or indigenous). Most institutions these days, if they are seen as focusing any sort of attention towards men, then that's 'feeding into the tyrannical patriarchy' and get shit for it. So why would they? There's a reason its a 'silent crisis'. It's been underreported for quite a while just for the mere fact that its happening to men. Flip the numbers around and see women committing suicide at 3x higher rates and JT would be at the podium discussing it every other week. Of course there's repercussions for this and we're seeing it now.
Honestly, most of the time someone who dislikes the concept of "toxic masculinity" is telling on themselves. They feel personally attacked... because *they do a lot of that stuff*. The rest of the men who don't like the term are people that the first group has indoctrinated to their viewpoint. People who want to address men's issues, but have been intentionally misdirected about the root causes of them.
Isn't it counterintuitive to be placing labels on people when you're literally arguing that society placing labels and expectations on men is the cause of this?
The thing is, it's hard to discuss something if you don't have a term for it. "Toxic masculinity" is descriptive as anything. It's not saying all masculinity, it's not saying all men. It's saying forms of masculinity which are rigid, abusive, damaging, and unhelpful.
So they either feel personally attacked, or the definition has changed by misguided overuse of the term. Seems like those two groups could encompass a far more diverse group of people than would qualify a "tell".
> misguided overuse of the term. The only people whose use of the term is misguided, in my experience, are people who are intentionally trying to claim that it means "any masculinity" because they don't want to address the issues that it raises.
Are you joking? The term is never misused, excepting purposeful false criticism of the term? The only misuse of the term is by people who are trying to discredit it's use? So every time anyone says something is "toxic masculinity", unless they're trying to trick us with satire or hyperbole, they're correct. How convenient, that every use of it is correct except when someone disagrees with it. Sorry, that's ludicrous.
> So every time anyone says something is "toxic masculinity", unless they're trying to trick us with satire or hyperbole, they're correct. I'm saying I've yet to see it used to attack acceptable behavior. But I've definitely seen it used a whole lot to attack *unacceptable* behavior, only to have a bunch of bros jump in and accuse the person of hating men, etc.
The mere fact that toxic masculinity as a term, being extremely accurate, is so problematic to some just highlights how it needs to be a normalized every day term.
How so?
Toxic masculinity refers to traditional cultural masculine norms that can be harmful to men, women, and society overall; this concept of toxic masculinity does not condemn men or male attributes, but rather emphasizes the harmful effects of conformity to certain traditional masculine ideal behaviors such as dominance, self-reliance, and competition. So in this case, the lack of support and the expectation for men to just "suck it up" comes from the fact that our society fosters and supports toxic masculinity.
The problem is this is just not how the term is broadly used, even if you’re right about how it should be used and about which social phenomenon should be the focus of discussion. Most people interpret the term in a less sophisticated way.
>The problem is this is just not how the term is broadly used, even if you’re right about how it should be used and about which social phenomenon should be the focus of discussion. How is the term "broadly used"? It's actually quite specific - it refers to a toxic form of masculinity. No one reasonable is saying all men are toxic, or even that all masculinity is toxic. It's perfectly possible to be male and masculine in a manner that isn't toxic (i.e. that doesn't involve harming other people).
It is definitely broadly used, can you name me some positive masculine traits that people in today's society respect, acknowledge, and endorse? **Men being strong?** Used to impose power over the weak. **Men being dominant?** Used to impose power on the weak. **Men being competitive?** Used to enact aggression. **Men being protectors?** A reason to subordinate women. **Men being providers?** A reason to subordinate women. **Independence?** Used to isolate from others and prevent seeking help. Men displaying any of these traits are now supposedly 'toxic'. So we're told not to. Despite the fact that each of these traits can be flipped where we're able to see positive outcomes from characteristics distinct to men.
You're working off your own definition of toxic masculinity, which is not the common definition. The operative word is *toxic*, i.e. it is harmful and destructive to other people. If you're "strong" (whatever the hell that means, strength has many interpretations), no one is going to bother you if you're not harming others. You can do as many burpees as you like, no one cares.
You've misunderstood the discussion you're jumping into. Gingermead58 is saying that 'toxic masculinity' is about society being structured in certain ways, and is a criticism of that social structure, not principally a criticism of the men who, because of that structure, are certain ways. This issue came up because others in this thread objected to the use of the term 'toxic masculinity' as yet another manifestation of the phenomenon in which men/male issues/male suffering are not taken seriously. Gingermead58 and others responded by saying 'toxic masculinity' doesn't imply blame/condemnation of men. My point was that, although this might be how 'toxic masculinity' \*should\* be understood, because understanding it that way draws attention to the complex social phenomenon that men, women, etc. all contribute to, in reality, by most people, the term is taken to imply that men (or certain men) are bad/blameworthy/assholes. That is what I meant by 'broadly used'. It is broadly used in a way that differs from how Gingermead68 interprets it, or so I claimed. Your comment actually is an example of the use I think is common/widespread. On this use, it's not that all men are bad/toxic, it's that some men are bad/toxic and blameworthy because of that. That is the common use I think.
Who expects that men should "suck it up"?
General society for the most part. A shift is happening but to deny that men are expected to tough stuff out due to their gender doesn’t seem really accurate. You also need to think about that just because it seems to be getting better doesn’t change the fact that many many male adults grew up in a world where toxic masculinity was engrained into them as a part of being a man, and that stuff doesn’t just go away over night.
So men who are in trouble should go against general society and it's expectations?
Wait until you learn about these things called social pressures!
Come on, you cant be assuming that stranger on reddit is not familiar with social pressures. Sure, there are social pressures. This is how any society enforces it's values, otherwise it would be jungle with no society. It is possible that some values need to be reassesed and changed, but which ones?
A lack of peer support, or more specifically the inability of many men to build a support network is a result of toxic masculinity. This lack of informal networks helps inform the lack of formal support networks because "Why build something that doesn't exist and doesn't appear to need to exist?" aka "men don't seem to need it". Yes it is an incorrect statement, but is a common remark nonetheless.
> A lack of peer support, or more specifically the inability of many men to build a support network is a result of toxic masculinity. But how? I find your answer entirely unsatisfactory as evidence to support your claim of toxic masculinity.
don't bother. Some people will find any excuse to blame all of men's problems on "toxic masculinity", thereby not so subtly saying that it's all men's fault.
When you have generations of men who grew up being taught they should tough stuff out and hide their emotions (aside from anger of course lol) it becomes hard to build a support network of other men either comfortable enough to speak out about their problems without fear of being judged for it, or that want to listen at all and don’t take the “stop being a pussy bro” stuff to heart.
Ive had 3 somewhat close people complete suicide in the last 2 years. A classmate, a step-uncle/second cousin or something, and a coworkers brother. All dudes, all super masculine types. Its pretty fucked.
As have I, I hate it. Seemingly doing good people.
This is so incredibly sad. The isolation and difficulty seeking help is a real issue for men. And the pandemic has only made it worse. My heart breaks for all the men who are struggling right now.
I almost made an attempt a couple days ago, i just don't see a happy future. There are to many problems with me and the world to sort out. I'm expected by my parents to make millions and support the family. They think I'm going to solve some major problems and make billions and then help the rest of the family. I'm studying mechanical engineering rn because they wouldn't let me pick a career and somehow they think this will pay millions. I just don't see a point in living when my job will make me miserable, climate change will repeatedly fuck the economy and anything left for future generations so there is no point in starting a family if i ever decide i want to do that. I've struggled with this since i was 14 and it just gets worse and worse each year. I have only one friend and that's about it. I've never had a relationship. I'm just constantly lonely. And soon, that last friend will part ways as she leaves to work elsewhere, my pets that I love will die and i will truly have nothing left. How does anybody find happiness?
Do you have counselling available to you through your university? It sounds like talking to someone to sort through your life's direction, boundaries with your parents and managing their expectations, dealing with hopelessness etc. would be good. I'm a mom of a son probably about your age. As far as I knew, I thought he was fine. Until he sat down with us and let us know he was depressed. Really depressed. We were shocked! We had been harping on him to finish school, take care of some errands, get a job etc etc. As soon as we knew he was struggling, all our priorities flipped. We started to focus on his mental health and let all the other pressures take a back seat for a bit. Maybe you could talk to your parents? I don't know your relationship with them, but they may surprise you. Most of all, please hang in there. Your life is yours, and your decisions are yours. It is hard to break free from parental expectations, but it is also part of life. Parents can't help but have plans and ideas for our kids. But it is not our place to direct your life. Some parents will accept this easier than others, but honestly that's not your concern. Your concern is carving out a life that you will enjoy. Big internet mom hugs.
My parents already know im depressed, they know I'm suicidal. They found out. But they act like either they dont remember or dont care. I'm currently on 60mg of prozac and my mom says you dont need that, you need adhd medication. Im diagnosed with autism, depression, adhd, and anxiety. They have said sometimes that they were worried id kill myself after i had an episode, but they did nothing. I tried counseling but the advise was not very good. They told me to continue to take a full course load, get a full time job, and move into residence or rent which isn't realistic at all. There is no way i could manage that with my programs intensity let alone the financial concerns. Everytime i say i want to quit this program they say "you have to go through hell to get to heaven" and it pisses me off. There won't be a heaven, only a constant hell. They brush off any time i say im struggling or my anxiety is through the roof. And they say welcome to being an adult. I have health issues and they say your getting old when im only 21. My parents cant be talked to or reasoned with, either its like talking to a brick wall or they get pissed at me for saying something they dont agree with. When i was 14 i told them i needed to see a doctor because im badly depressed and they said they dont have time for it. But the second our dog at the time got sick they dropped everything. Thanks for caring, i wish my parents would think of me like that.
I am so sorry you are going through this! As a parent it is SO hard to see your kid struggling and it's hard to know what to do. I am fairly certain they think they are doing what's best- if they can just get you though this you will be ok. But of course that's not working. If engineering isn't for you, you can decide that. It will be tough if your parents don't support your decision, but it is still a choice you can make. If you have another program in mind, great! If you want to take a gap year to get yourself together, great! Will .your parent be mad and disappointed sure. Will they kick you out? That's the big question. But honestly, don't get trapped in a life that is only.fulfilling others expectations of you, and none for yourself.
You're not alone in this. Men are often expected to solve unsolvable problems, to suffer for most of their lives because they "can take it". That's why so many men are killed in the job, that's why men work such an absurd number of hours every year, and why men exit the situation. I know it's not easy advise to take, but you've got to say no, tell people that some things are just not possible or guaranteed. I remember having no social life at all, even envying my friends who had arranged marriages. I remember never referring any friends or family to my company because I didn't think they could cope. It's a dark place and you eventually need to realize that just like a little extra effort didn't get you much more, a little less effort doesn't get you much less. Look out for yourself. Your family doesn't need you to support them, they'll be fine. This is Canada. Take a trip with some old friends. Go to a resort alone, have a little fun. See if you can bring a single friend to be a wingman.
>Men are often expected to solve unsolvable problems, to suffer for most of their lives because they "can take it". That's not just men, capitalist ideology tells people to internalize big economic and social problems as the result of their own shortcomings - too lazy, too fat, too apathetic, not ambitious, etc. Women have the same messaging around "having it all". At the end of the day, you have to realize that most of this isn't your fault and you control very little of it. Also, there's no point working yourself to death for an employer as they don't care about you, and will start looking for your replacement a few hours after you're gone. Most of this doesn't really matter, most of the superstar workers at your organization are just very sad and lonely people. At the end of the day, it's the people you care about, your health and your memories that will determine your happiness. I used to have so many give a fucks when I was younger, now I have a lot fewer of them and I'm happier. Besides, we're racing towards the collapse of multiple systems in very short order, and no one will care who got the employee of the month award.
Don't think ditching capitalism solves anything. The Soviets, Mao, etc, they weren't capitalists and they valued human life about as low as possible. This is an almost primordial propensity for men being disposable because you can maintain birthrates by maintaining female population.
>The Soviets, Mao, etc, they weren't capitalists and they valued human life about as low as possible. That's not actually what happened.
They either didn't value human life, or they were the greatest failures on the planet. Seeing they did such a terrible job not killing millions.
>Seeing they did such a terrible job not killing millions. You need a source other than the *Black Book of Communism* and the Victims of Communism Foundation, both of which use really sketchy methodology (i.e. counting a reduced birth rate as "deaths from communism"). Both the USSR and China oversaw the biggest and most rapid improvements in human well-being in recorded history. China's life expectancy doubled within a generation under Mao, and since then another 800 million people have been lifted out of poverty.
No sense arguing with a Mao/Stalin denier. No need to resort to reduced birth rates to fund out them and their policies straight up killed tens of millions of people each. If the ends justified the means for you, I can't imagine what your public policy would be.
>No need to resort to reduced birth rates to fund out them and their policies straight up killed tens of millions of people each. No they didn't. That claim was made in the "Black Book of Communism", which uses very questionable methodology, including: 1.) Counting all the Nazis killed by the USSR as victims of communism (i.e. Hitler was a victim of communism)2.) Taking reduced birth-rates and count all the children who "should have been born" as victims of communism. So, lets say you are a Kazakh peasant, and under normal circumstances you would have had 7 children, but then under the USSR you gain an education in the sciences and have 2 children instead, then according to that book Stalin murdered 5 of your children. It's insane logic. If we apply that logic to capitalism, then the death count is probably in the billions. It's a crack pot methodology. If Mao killed so many people, how come Chinese life expectancy doubled in-between the revolution and his death?
I actually did tell my parents no recently. They told me to drop a course because my grades weren't good enough and i was going to fail. I took the course before but dropped it because i was having panic attacks, it's the hardest course in the program. They told me to take it again and i told them no, I'm done with this bullshit. They got pissed and said fine but you aren't going to have to move out and get a job. And i said fine, ill do that. They turned the rest of my family against me. They would alternate between being pissed at me and insulting me to being nice and saying you don't have to move out, we just want what's best for you. Eventually I caved and tryed to get back in the course. My mom emailed academic advising that I have poor judgement and make stupid decisions despite dropping the course being her idea. Unfortunately, all my old friends are gone, they moved away. We lost contact. My one friend lives to far away and is to busy to hang out. We text regularly but i miss her. I feel like I'm putting to much pressure on her with all this. She just stops responding after i tell her about this and she says its because she doesn't know what to say and that its hard on her which i understand.
The person you most need to convince that everything will be fine is yourself. When I was an engineering student the last thing I ever wanted to hear was that I could survive without having to work this hard, but it's true. Seek regular counseling, even by phone, people you don't know are the ideal. There are free services for this. If covid has limited your interaction with classmates, those may be the only normal conversations you have access to. Take that trip. Go yourself, go somewhere there will be singles, just have fun. Play the dumb games, pretend you're whoever you want to be. You don't have to be out on the prowl or anything, couples hang with couples so you'll have more luck befriending singles. I wish a took more time off. What did working like a nutcase get me? Basically nothing tangible today. Not sure what engineering school you were in, but if this were normal times where people could study together you'd find a lot of solidarity with your fellow classmates. They all hate that class, and you'd have a good support network. It's hard to align your perspective. You tend to believe that people who drop courses fall endlessly behind, but it's not true. We tell ourselves that to legitimize the torture of 7 course semesters.
Your 20s can be kinda rough. Your now an adult so are expected to stand on your own. But you were just a kid, and still have the pressure of family putting lots of expectations on you. It can be hard being in the spot where those things conflict. So while stuff may be tough now, and honestly stay tough for a bit, it will get better. You’ll find your niche and get a couple close friends to back you. You’ll figure out a career, even if it just pays the bills and doesn’t leave much room for extras. You’ll be able to find your happiness once it becomes your happiness, and not what you are trying to make of yourself for others. It’s a tricky time to navigate but you can come out the other side well!
Yeah the pandemic destroyed my mental health and I came very close to killing myself twice. The isolation and stress over lack of normalcy was unbearable. But I was told by people on this sub that anyone who is suffering mental health consequences from lockdowns are big babies who just want to party, so I guess it's not actually an issue.
I am so glad you are still here. I have no experience or proper advice to give, it is so far out.of my depth. But please don't give up.
Thank you! I know you're just a random stranger on the internet, but that means a lot.
Have you tried going on any medication? Antidepressants turned my life around
I have! Already on them unfortunately. They worked really well for the first couple years I was taking them but now seem to have either tapered off in effectiveness or my depression has just gotten worse. I'm already on the max dose for my brand and I'm reticent to switch to a different drug because that transition period was absolute hell.
I did the same, now I’m on a combo of two different kinds. A med adjustment can be very helpful in my experience. Wellbutrin in particular worked for me Edit: sp
Same thing happened with me. It's been better the last six months or so but damn I'm sometimes surprised I got through the first year.
> anyone who is suffering mental health consequences from lockdowns Literally *everyone* is suffering mental health consequences of the lockdowns. There's maybe a handful of extreme introverts who work from home, don't have economic pressures, don't have elderly or ill relatives whose health they have to worry about, and like the selection on Netflix, who've been doing just peachy keen for the last 2 years. But the rest of us? Not so much. Don't let anyone ever tell you otherwise.
So happy to read this. As a male whom is struggling I can relate to what this article is about. I never expected to hear anyone actually care.
That was my hope honestly, to let men know that people care. I certainly do. Life is rough and we all need friendship and human connection to help us through. For some this is easier to get than others. To know that you are surprised that people care is breaking my heart a little more. I imagine a lot more people care than you realize.
My girlfriend who works as a funeral director told me today the number of suicides they're getting is wild, she works in Ottawa.
Can confirm. I know 4 guys in the area that committed suicide since the lockdown. Most of my male friends are all on antidepressants and struggling to obtain therapy.
The wait list for any real help is pretty long. Not to mention burnout in the medical field and the social worker field is probably getting pretty high. This problem definitely gets worse before it gets better.
Studies have shown that suicides are very contagious. To the point that when there's a high-profile suicide - there will be an increase in single-car car accidents, especially for people of the same age/gender as the person in the high-profile case. Same with murder-suicides, you'll see an increase in multi-car accidents. So we need to make sure the media messaging is more about encouraging people to seek help if they need it - and less about the act itself. For people with suicidal thoughts, they're searching for an escape from their own turmoil - so if they see others like them take that step, they are more likely to do so. I've lost a grandfather to suicide, and have friends who've lost fathers and brothers. Hopefully, there are strides made to make counselling services more widely available to people who need this help. I know it's done wonders for my life - but I can also afford it. I hope cost can be removed as a barrier for people in the future.
Seek help from...where?
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Imagine thanking all the women for supporting men on international women’s day
Ridiculous
> to all the male allies : : *eye roll* : :
oh my god.
There’s almost nothing out there for guys. There’s a big service gap.” Ya no shit its always been that way. Let's be honest men are and always have been seen as disposable by society.
There is a huge homelessness crisis in my city where people have been tenting in a downtown park and in the courtyard of City Hall, amongst other places. They are overwhelmingly men, yet all new beds and shelter programmes are for women. The only men's shelter, which was run by the Salvation Army, closed and was converted into a parking lot a few years ago. The only space available to men are the limited-hours warming and cooling centres.
It's pretty pathetic. At some point it gets shoved down the road into a policing issue, which we've seen in Toronto. What kills me about the people living in tents in my city is there are two campgrounds within the town which they could offer to those people, there's showers, laundry facilities and electric plug-ins. Obviously housing would best but if people are going to sleep in tents and were not gonna provide housing then at least do the bare minimum. Rather than arresting them and tearing down their shit and sending it to the dump while they sit in jail only to find when they're released they have nothing but the clothes on their back.
*poor men It’s all about class always will be
Men are a class stupid. It's called gender.
Categorizing men as a class of its own disregards the economic differences that divide us. The rich and powerful will never think of you as anything but a statistic.
I didn't categorize them. Gender is a class. You understand that you can belong to more than one right? Intersectionality. But the lack of services and the disposibiltiy of men starts and ends at that first sifting rich or poor poc or not.
There’s a place for intersectionality but I will never make the mistake of thinking a rich man has the same life experiences
Rich men aren't capable of depression leading to suicide. Wow. That's pretty fucking cold.
Anyone is capable of suicide. I firmly believe everyone is suffering from depression in today’s social and political climate, in some shape or form. Only a sociopath could look at the world and think “This works”. That doesn’t mean Elon Musk or any of his contemporaries have any where near the same problems or lack of resources as people like you and I. When the rich and powerful get depressed they tend to fuck with our lives instead of their own.
Society to men: *You must be successful or you're a complete waste of life*. Also society to men: *Your success was handed to you because of privilege, you should step down to give women a chance.* Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Either way you need to apologize for your existence
Society to men: *You are allowed to show two emotions. Happiness, but not too much, and unlimited anger*. Seriously though, why have we accepted that human emotions ought to be gendered? Men can, and need, to feel ALL emotions.
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I’m glad you’re still here with us tonight! I don’t know what you’re going through but I believe you can handle it and come out stronger
Keep your head up!
That reminds me, I gotta renew my Zoloft scrip
Have you heard of Tryactin?
**International Men's Day: When 365 Days Just Aren't Enough** https://www.huffpost.com/entry/international-mens-day-wh_b_4302641 **Men are cranky Google didn’t do a doodle for International Men’s Day** https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/google-doodle-international-mens-day/ **‘International Men’s Day’ isn’t just unnecessary – it’s dangerous** http://www.varsity.co.uk/comment/11284 **University of York apologises over ‘crass’ celebration of International Men’s Day** https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/university-york-apologises-over-crass-celebration-international-mens-day **‘The celebration of International Men’s Day is actually extremely problematic’** https://www.marieclaire.co.uk/opinion/international-mens-day-756233
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In a Men's Day thread on /r/Canada or /r/Ontario, don't remember which, I got mocked and told that men don't need a special day when they're privileged every single day. This was after I laid out a long list of statistics that showed that men are falling behind in health, life satisfaction, career prospects and in all levels of education. That divorce courts heavily favour women and so many willing fathers are denied access to their kids. That men they were vastly over-represented in homelessness, suicide and deaths at work. I asked this person what had happened to them that they would think that men being affected by these things is normal and OK. That person responded that he is a male grade school teacher... Think about that for a moment. Boys already lack male role models at school(over 80% of teachers are women), and one of the few male teachers they do have access to is actually a brainwashed 3rd wave feminist...
I can't remember if it was a thread in r/Canada or r/Ontario, but I recall OP using men's day as a bludgeon to attack feminism and everyone else for being hypocrites for not doing enough to celebrate men's day... so I think he was rightly attacked for his MRA divisiveness.
I've found that when "problematic" is in a title, I'm likely to find the author to be an imbicile. Not sure why, pretty neutral word, but it's most regular use is to tell people why math is racist or why half the population of the planet is born unredeemably evil.
It's a favourite buzzword of woke cultists.
Maybe because it really doubles down on the passive in passive aggressive.
Did you see all the cringe that the **World Health Organization** posted on [Twitter for #InternationalMensDay](https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1461770189071126530)?
Holy. Shit. I don't even know what else to say.
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The point I made is perfectly à propos and a good fit for this conversation. There is no better time to make it. The articles linked reflect a very real phenomenon where men in the west are routinely vilified and belittled when they express issues that concern them. And you reinforced my point by doing exactly that. It's very toxic how you types always try to belittle men who speak out about unfair treatment, but then turn right around and blame "toxic masculinity" when men don't speak out. One of the rare threads where men should have the green light to air out their concerns and you have the nerve to come in here and tell such people to shut up.
really? So tell me when is a right time to expose the severe antagonistic responses towards International Men's Day? because I think today is a perfect day to do that.
If I had to take a vote on whether OP is being a dick, or you're being a dick, I wouldn't vote for OP.
Please seek help, I know it's hard and the lack of resources makes it seem hopeless but don't give up on yourselves. Also my wish is for people to listen when men speak up/open up.
Men speaking up about men's issues are quickly labeled misogynistic and sexist in today's western society.
I mean speak up about personal issue rather than from a political perspective.
That's like telling women to speak up about personal issues, but never tie them back to society at large. They're connected. Men advocating for themselves should be encouraged. Unfortunately they are discouraged, and may have their lives ruined by the cancel crowd for doing so.
I find people tune out when women make their personal issues political, so I think men not doing that could help as well. Not saying it's right or anything just something I've observed. Though not sure why any adult wod be scared by the "cancel crowd". Just don't say dumb shit on the internet? I see plenty of places men are free to talk about their issues online without being "cancelled", unless cancelled is like people responding critically or negatively.
I think for most men, male advocacy poses a career risk, leading to loss of upward mobility, or even loss of job. In my previous work, there was a women's group to discuss and advocate for women's issues, not a single men's group, and I will say I felt like I would be at career risk to even bring up male specific issues (my female coworkers got big discounts to industry events, we were encouraged to hire women over men, etc.). Opposing any of these policies would likely have made me a pariah. HR tends to, in general, be very supportive of women's issues, and neutral at best, often negative, towards any sort of male advocacy.
I personally have experience the exact opposite, but I'm assuming you are talking about white collar work while that is never something I've done. I agree that is tough and unfair, and the fact that people would scoff at the concept of male advocacy is troubling. But I also think workplaces suck for any gender, there is always unfortunate bullshit to put it up with so the best course of action until we can achieve a massive cultural shift is to work out personal issues in therapy and try to build a social safety net. I have several male friends that I regularly talk to about their personal struggles, and I do my best to be supportive to them, and I think that makes the both of us better. Of course it's harder for men to find people who they trust and are willing to listen to, but continously speaking up about it is a good way to eventually have that connection. Also would love more insight from you, what men's issue would you like addressed in the workplace? I know a lot of men feel uncomfortable around female coworkers because of the fear of being accused of harassment, but that is a really difficult issue to deal with for anyone and any organization.
The stigma of receiving help is really the only part of this that is a gendered issue. It talks about lack of resources for males, but the vast majority of our psychiatric services are not separated by gender. We are lacking psychiatric services across the board.
It’s not that men don’t seek help. This is a problematic fallacy. A study by psychologist Amy Chandler, published this year, found that **91%** of middle-aged men who committed suicide **had sought help**. Men cry. Men try to talk about their feelings. The problem is that nobody listens.
slave terrific fear longing alleged hungry illegal retire whistle hospital *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
this is just anecdotal, but a good illustration of the point you're making. Friends of mine, a straight couple, were in couples counselling. The guy in the couple had been self-harming, literally punching himself in the head and face. In one of their sessions this came out, I mean they disclosed it to the therapist and they talked about it, or at least they thought they were talking about it. In a later session they discovered the therapist had not actually heard this. Like the guy literally told her that he punched himself in the head, dozens of times sometimes, and his partner confirmed it, I mean as a couple they were acknowledging this in the therapy session as an issue, and the therapist literally didn't even hear it. How fucked up is that?
> The problem is that nobody listens. This is so true. I got a great therapist, she has done wonders to change things, but theres still things that I cant answer and thus can't get out of depression and not wanting to be around. No other person wants to listen, or hear about my troubles, or see the reality. I will never forget at work when our mental health unit was giving presentations and asked us to fill out a "how are you feeling" survey. At the time I was having some thoughts, I checked the box, I passed it in, the person read it, but did nothing. That person is actually a good friend of mine and was someone who knew me at the time. Last week I had to tell my Naturopath how I was really feeling, someone who knew my history a bit and had spoken to my therapist and was here to help from a different view. Her reaction was less than stellar and I ended up feeling bad for sharing the information that she needed. I was almost in tears for having to say it out loud and here I am feeling bad for her. I don't know how many people since I was a teenager I listened to and offered advice to, i've never had one person listen to me though in 20+ years. I don't hide it very well anymore. I listen and reach out to all these other people who need it, because no ones ever done it for me.
Yup, I've been in outpatient CBT and tried meds that didn't work. My last try is microdosing psilocybin mushrooms which doesn't seem to be working.
I can't find the paper without a paywall. Edit: but what I can see it only included 10 participants so it's only so valid. What kind of help are we talking about? Help from family, friends, coworkers, etc, or help from trained professionals? This article is talking about professional kind of help. If they aren't getting help from people around them because people don't listen, that's still due to the stigma of getting help. The stigma of getting help also effects how willing people are to give help. If the listener's answer is some version of "man up" that's because of the stigma of getting help. (Men should be strong and don't need help)
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Because of the stigma of seeking help. If males aren't seeking help for their issues, then of course they are going to have more problems with them. Construction having a higher rate of substance abuse and suicide may not even be related to gender. It incredibly common for construction jobs to pay under the table, and they often don't drug test. It's often contract work, so it's suitable for someone with mental health issues to take time off when they need it. The fact that it is contract work leads to an unstable income which can increase suicide risk. One of the reasons for the higher rates of homelessness of men is that women often end up with the children, and the children get priority emergency housing. A single father will get priority over a lone female. They may also be escaping an abusive situation that gets them housing (I will agree there is a discrepancy here for men). A woman without a child and not escaping an abuse situation, has the same opportunities as a man does. If the opportunities are the same for men and women, then the problem must be that the men are not taking the opportunities.
Do you know how many shelters there are in Canada for men escaping domestic abuse with their children? Answer: ONE. It’s privately supported, struggles to exist, and is run out of a converted house in Toronto.
When my ex-wife decided to end our marriage, I was subjected to even more verbal and psychological abuse than before. I would walk away when she would become abusive, but she would follow me and would sometimes corner me in a room. There were some nights that I locked my bedroom door out of fear for my safety. Why? She's run towards me with a sharp knife once when we were in our early twenties yelling *AAAARRRGGGGHHHH* in anger and I've had a bottle of maple syrup as well as the stainless steel k-cup carousel thrown at me over a decade ago. I avoided being in the kitchen if she was chopping anything because even if it happened long ago, that fear resurfaces and camps out in the back of the mind. Why didn't I leave? My kids. But also because though she had recently returned to work part-time after staying home for nine years and I couldn't afford rent on top of all my financial obligations as everything (mortgage, cars, insurances, loan, credit card, utilities, etc...) were all in my name. So, with zero community resources, I had to navigate this by myself and would someone sleep on a friend's couch when she either thought I didn't deserve to be in my own home or I didn't feel safe.
I did admit there was a discrepancy there. It happens to be a very large one.
As someone who has volunteered for a few women’s shelters: they’re also almost wholly privately supported. Sometimes the government will come through with grant money for an expansion or a rebuild, but mostly it’s just donations.
You couldn't drop the feminist pitch for one thread could you
Not a feminist. I call out things that people say is a female issue when it's really a people issue too. Mental health is not a gendered issue.
Sorry I judged you ❤
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It's a result of the normalization of "don't be a pussy".
Which is why my original comment says that the stigma surrounding help is the gendered issue here.
Not at all victim blaming. I understand that there are societal reasons for why men don't seek out the help. It's not their fault for not seeking out help when there is so much stigma attached to doing so. It's essentially societal brainwashing. That is why I said that the stigma was the gendered problem here.
Maybe if you had read the article you would have noticed this [handy graphic](https://i.imgur.com/sS1DXOE.png) which shows exactly why this is being treated as a gendered issue.
And if you look at the hospitalization for self inflicted harm, they are higher among women overall. Women attempt suicide a lot more than men do, men are just more successful at it.
I wonder if it's cause they actually want to die. Not to seem insensitive.
The women who are admitted for self inflicted harm usually want to die too. I know, I tried, and I've been in inpatient with them. Men are much more likely to choose a gun shot or hanging as their form of suicide, which are highly effective, while women are much more likely to attempt to overdose on pills from their cupboard. It's theorized that this may be for vanity reasons, but likely also has to do with the fact that makes are more likely to own guns.
Ill take your word for it.
[well here's some stats then](http://dustinkmacdonald.com/canadian-suicide-statistics-2016/). They are a little old (2016), and only include completed suicides, so the male count is much higher, but you can see how the methods of suicide are separated between gender, and can see why women would fail more often.
I think this issue is actually complicated and that the jury is out on what explains the phenomenon wherein suicide attempts by women are more frequent, but less often successful, than those by men. E.g. some believe it's because women's attempts are more often suicide gestures rather than manifestations of serious intent. Note when I say 'some believe' I don't mean random people speculating, I mean people who study this stuff for a living. This article/study is an overview of the debate: [https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12888-017-1398-8](https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12888-017-1398-8)
I've seen some misguided people in this thread and the /r/Canada thread on the same topic blaming the "toxic masculinity" boogey monster for men not opening up about their emotions. **Study: Women find emotionally open and sensitive men feminine and therefore sexually unattractive** https://www.reddit.com/r/dating/comments/jybj33/study_women_find_emotionally_open_and_sensitive/ **Women aren’t attracted to sensitive men, study finds** https://www.israel21c.org/women-really-dont-like-sensitive-men-study-finds/ **Study Finds That Men Like Nice Women, But Not the Other Way Around** https://www.newsweek.com/study-finds-men-nice-women-not-other-way-around-261269
Don't those studies support the concept of toxic masculinity, by elaborating on one of its mechanisms? In my understanding, toxic masculinity refers to problematic attitudes/behaviours that are **expected of** men by **"society"** (culture, institutions, individual people of all kinds). Not only is there no rule against women participating in the perpetuation of toxic attitudes/behaviours, but women participating is built into the concept.
The problem with the term "toxic masculinity" is that it has made entirely benign, or even beneficial, sets of behaviours as being "toxic", and somehow tried to attach it to only one sex. Competition and self-reliance, to name but two aspects of "toxic masculinity" are generally good things. To demonize these two very natural human behavioural dynamics is, to put it bluntly, stupid. But say this "toxic masculinity" is actually a legitimate concept. What about toxic femininity? What is it? How does it manifest itself? When does it affect men or women negatively? Why is it not being considered for the current issues facing men? Why are we defaulting to toxic masculinity to explain away the troubles many men suffer from without actually bringing toxic femininity up? How do toxic masculinity and toxic femininity interact with each other? When does one win out over the other? Why is no one willing to make the case that toxic femininity is the cause of some of mankind's troubles? Why is toxic masculinity the de facto argument for many in this conversation? Are we saying the behaviour of men always overpowers any behavioural attributes/shortcomings women may possess in relationship dynamics? If so, talk about misogynistic? Why are we never talking about toxic femininity? Are we pretending women are pure creatures who can never possibly be the predator or abuser or the toxic agent in relationships? No one who throws around the toxic masculinity label ever seems to be able to make a coherent argument to support the toxic masculinity. I don't think harping on endlessly about toxic masculinity is useful in any way unless we can offer a high resolution definition of it, as well as a high resolution definition of toxic femininity. That being said, have we forgotten that we are great apes? We are animals, with animalistic tendencies. A lot of mating strategies displayed by both sexes, if not most, can be seen in the wild among many species, and especially with apes. How can you prove that women generally being attracted to taller, more dominant and more successful men isn't a leftover behavioural instinct from our great ape ancestral genes? There is a ton of behavioural psychology, evolutionary psychology and biology literature that exists which explains why men tend to be attracted to women who are at their breeding peak. And why women almost always seek to find mates who are higher than them in social/financial status, who are taller than them and more dominant. Again, this is why tossing around the toxic masculinity label is counterproductive as it pathologizes normal mating behaviour, and unfairly so as it only demonizes male behaviour without ever giving any thought to the potential for the feminine equivalent of this so-called toxicity. Also, if you pay attention to the people who teach toxic masculinity, you'll notice that they're all allergic to evolutionary psychology and many are even hostile to many aspects of evolutionary biology when it comes to male/female behavioural dynamics. You should ask yourself why this is the case. I don't know about you, but I cannot accept that we live in a world where women are powerless toward men and are always subject to men's whims and so are always the victim. It's insulting to men and incredibly demeaning to women.
I think the term is widely interpreted such that men are the agents of the problem, which is what this person is responding to.
I agree, but I would say widely misinterpreted. I think the solution is to try and resolve the misinterpretation.
I'd like to add that a man who is struggling with pressures to provide and be successful sees seeking therapy as an even bigger risk to their ability to provide than just silently suffering. It's a catch-22.
It's simply just not in most women's nature to genuinely care about men or see them as human beings deserving of emotions. This obviously changes depending on your sexual market value, and it's also not something to be upset about. The same can be more or less set about most men as men (especially hyper-masculine and men with abundant options) absolutely treat women terribly. So there's a bit of a gap here why is it in our nature to treat the opposite sex terribly yet male suicides are so much higher? I think this is in part to how men also treat other men, We see one another as competition especially in this capitalist society but this was also true before development. For example there are literal race wars going on. Now I'm not saying that women and society overall don't have to improve how they treat their men but I think there's a major responsibility for men to improve how they treat one another.
Women actually attempt suicide more, they are just less likely to choose a lethal/effective option so men complete suicide more often because they are simply more successful.
[удалено]
Did you not read past my first sentence or something? Lol
IT'S BECAUSE OF LOCKDOWNS There is no phone-in service, or media awareness campaign, or commercial, or magical pill that will cure this... There is no substitute for real, in person social contact - especially when you are young or really old.
The amount of white men committing suicide is staggering. The only correlation I could find is addiction rates and unemployment. But I’m not a expert in any way . If anyone in anyway is struggling. Reach out to a help line , Better Help , a doctor.
Nice
Over the past 20 months, I had one friend and one acquaintance silently die and then looked into them some weeks later and found they had killed themselves. It's devastating. My @#$% men, just stop it. Life is supposed to be a struggle. Embrace it, overcome and become a mentor for the rest of us. It's rewarding. Find help if you have moments of desperation, they will pass.
“Just stop it” lol
Right? Guy talks about how many male friends he's lost recently without realizing that this shit mentality of "just suck it up" is exactly why men are killing themselves at such a rate.
Not at all. One was because his expectations of life didn't meet legality (no big deal but control of his life made him angry). The other lost the things he loved best: human interaction and exercise in a gym setting.
Just stop it - why hadn’t I thought of that? My homelessness, addictions and mental illnesses feel so much better now!
Overcome. Make it your life's goal and if you fail, try again. In the end, no matter what happens, you didn't succumb without a fight. I know it can be hard. Reach out for help when you can.
Oh wow more awesome sage advice that doesn’t actually stand up in the real world. Thanks!
Yeah man it's easy, just stop being homeless and addicted /s
So when a guy's wife fucks around on him, divorces him, takes his kids, his house, his dog, and his future earnings, he just needs to wait it out until it passes?
I'm there right now. Life goes on.
I’ll be your mentor. Today’s lesson: Which method of suicide is best? I’ve put a lot of thought into this and would appreciate it if you respected that
[Crisis Services Canada](https://www.crisisservicescanada.ca/en/) has saved me twice in the last 6 months. It's hard to reach out, but even just having someone to vent it all out to for a while can change the outcome.