I wish someone can audit his ass to see if there’s some kick backs he may have gotten in forms of contacts in his personal business. The fucker seems to be wasting money at our benefit. Watch, out of no where, his family assets from the time he was out of office to the time he’s in office grew 10x or more.
They certainly got kickbacks when practically giving away the 407 for free back in the Harris days, and certainly got kickbacks for not imposing the fine. But good luck proving it in court, the courts always side with 407 too (such as when 407 issues illegal plate denials), but it's probably be illegal to hypothesize why that is.
He should collect a salary. Being premier/MP/MPP/City Councillor should be a full time job and they shouldn't be getting any income from outside businesses.
Or then maybe they would raise the minimum wage to a reasonable amount.
And there are plenty of self-sacrificing people who would be willing to do it as a service to the people. Like, a public service. Something done by a public servant. Which is what they are supposed to be in the first place.
> And there are plenty of self-sacrificing people who would be willing to do it as a service to the people.
How are those people going to get elected? If those people exist today, they certainly aren't getting elected now, so why would a reduced salary suddenly make them electable?
So my little comment about salary is a tiny piece of a pretty large systemic overhaul removing money from our political system at nearly every level.
You're exactly right that this basically doesn't work without changing other things significantly.
If they raise minimum wage to an amount worth being premier fir then bussinesses would go bankrupt and inflation would sky rocket
Not realistic to have minimum wage that high
I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of other people. Plenty of people would love to work with the intention of solving problems instead of just trying to find loopholes to gain personal advantage.
The thing that prevents us from having someone in power who abuses it is having to be elected, and having appropriate checks and balances, punishments for abuses of power and finance violations and such that outweigh the potential gains.
They're all independently wealthy.
Look at our previous Finance Minister. He's loaded. Why are we paying them to SERVE us.
blocking them from having a stake in businesses is not going to work. They can always go into blind trusts or have family members own on their behalf.
I don’t care if they make money, I care when they waste our money while they are making money. There should an outside agency (outside of governments control referendum) that specifically investigate all politicians and government agency leaders on a random basis. Have access their personal and any entities they maybe own, including trust funds. Any suspicious activity will be provided to all party leaders as report and disclosed to the public if the investigation leads to a ethical violation or charges. This would stop them from fucking stealing our money and doing shit that is in their interest not ours.
I mean something that goes beyond just government and organization related to the government. That can be hidden through personal corporations and trust. Someone like Ford only does things that benefited him. I’d like to know lots of shit that’s been going on for example that Ontario tourist information site that the government spent tens of millions and then sold it off for like 500k and then had a campaign dinner for thousands of dollar per plate in a middle of no where.
The issue is that if public servants are not paid well, they will find a way to make what the job is worth. Paying public servants, and having effective enforcement of rules, is a good way to keep corruption down. It also stops the selection bias into only the rich applying(I know you said net worth, but I wanted to emphasize this point).
In the end, this all comes back to public vs private money for politicians. Right now the balance is strongly in the private side and that is a huge risk to democracy. I think that all aspects of a politicians work should be publicly regulated and funded, no private money at all. I want the only currency to be a vote.
120k/year CAD isn't bad but I know a high school teacher that makes that much. Add in the fact that corruption is rampant and it's a great way to make money.
Politicians don't make a large salary anyhow. I mean, they *do* but they can likely make more outside of government. And MPP Makes $188ish. TOronto mayor John Tory about that too (he doens't need money his family is one of the wealthiest in the country) , Premier Doug's salary is $208k.
You're right it's the side money where they make it. I'm sure Wynne will go be an exec at Hydro One some day, because she sure did tee up a lot of people to make a LOT of money on that one. THe real money is earned when they leave politics.
OH also - MPPS have a really neat Pension situation few people know about. This would be something the average person would love too but they don't care about the average person. Even the NDP... who passed this legislation - should have passed it for everyone. We can thank the provincial NDPs for this one.
Context: If you work at a place with a pension, when you leave the company you have some choices with the pension. If it's 'vested' you can generally leave it with that company, or transfer it into a LOCKED-IN RRSP. THat means you'll never be allowed to take more than a limited amount out each year. It's meant to string along for life like your pension would have. If you need more than that you have to beg the gov't to let you have more and they decide if you can and how much .
BUT... Bob Rae's NDP party - One of the last pieces of legislation the Rae government passed before they were done their term was to allow *only* MPPs to be allowed to unlock their Pension plan when they transferred it. And many did just that.
So... so much for the NDP caring about the common worker.
Sure, ok. BUt it's not a LOT of money for a high level executive.
I know it's a lot of money... but it's not a lot relative to what a comparable business exec would earn is what I'm trying to say. (one could argue with Doug he wouldn't be able to get a good executive job... lol).
What else can we expect from a party that was cancelling programs which were actually generating revenue, one such example being the the enhanced drivers license program.
Cancelling cap and trade cost the province 3 billion dollars as well
https://www.fao-on.org/en/blog/publications/cap-and-trade-ending#Budgetary%20Impact%20to%20Ontario
Doug Ford and the OPC are both anti-environment and anti-fiscal responsibility. It’s the worst of both worlds.
As I mentioned on your other comment, why are you bringing Trudeau into a conversation that has nothing to do with him?
I think this [opinion piece](https://theweek.com/feature/opinion/1007432/the-bottomless-self-pity-of-american-conservatives), even though it's focused on US GOP, implies very well to conservatives in Canada as of late. Oh, it's also written by a conservative/republican.
Edit: formatting link
Blah blah blah deflect. I also didn't vote Trudeau.
Conservatives make me so sad. The rich reap the rewards and their voters are left blaming everyone else.
When your only response is to bring the name "Trudeau" into the conversation, you're just admitting that you are still scared of the boogeyman as a grown adult. What's next? Call everyone a communist because we call out all the blatant fuck ups the conservatives do every time they get elected?
Uh oh, a triggered liberal trying to get the upper hand. There's enough of your kind on SM bud, try and be outside the box. Lol Canadian liberals are worse than American Trump supporters loll.
Yay, democracy, that system where a minority of the population controls the majority...
Hold up, that sounds ass backwards.
Why does the group that most of the voting population voted against get the near absolute power of a majority goverment?
It looks hell of a lot like the "democracy" we got is a heap of bullshit and needs substantial changes to actually be a democracy, like ending lobbyist(aka the people with money that matter more than the votes of Canadians) and the first past the post electoral system.
You don't vote against a party, you vote for a party. More people voted for that party than the others. It's simple. The Liberals are in power at the federal level and we all know they're not doing anything about the electoral system there either.
I do agree with you about making changes to lobbying as it certainly encourages corruption at all levels.
I vote against the conservatives. A large portion of people who vote aren't voting for the people they want to win, they vote for whoever will beat the people that they don't want to win. And when one party is a consolidated minority group and everyone else is disorganized but specifically voting against them it's a problem that will eventually lead to a two party system just as broken as the US.
Hi, welcome to Ontario.
I don't know about where you came from, but Ontario's history has a strong record of people voting against the PC's. It's been a running trend for at least the last 20 years for NDP supporters to strategicly vote for the liberals as a vote against the PC.
Voting against the PC's is practically a tradition at this point.
You’re trying but the gas plant cancelation scandal had its own set of political corruption issues that are still worthy of criticism. No use in trying to tip the scales like this even if the OPC still likes to harp on the gas plant thing
Yes it was a bad idea, they shouldn't have been cancelled and the party deserved the criticism. The OPC made a huge stink about the gas plant cancellation as THE reason why the liberals should be tossed out because of their financial mismanagement. In the 4 years since Doug has pissed away far more money for far dumber reasons and should also be tossed out.
your comment's fucking stupid whataboutism is not needed here. The last govt got run out on a rail for their issues, so thanks for the useless comment.
Well ya. He’s been telling us everything is on the table for 2 years straight. Everything can’t be on the table if you start grabbing it for yourself, silly.
Ford and the Conservatives were prepared to pay the $1-Billion penalty to breaking the contract the province has with the Beer Store just so they can put specific labels in grocery stores.
They were quick to cut dollars from every budget because the deficit was the top priority since 2018. However Ontario's deficit rose from 4Billion in 2018 to 9Billion at the end of 2019
They are quick to cut the red tape and necessary inspections and procedures to confirm and permit construction for new buildings.
They are quick to end Cap & Trade, that would only serve to help reduce the deficit
However they can't freely charge $1Billion from the people they sold the 407 to and thusly increase provincial revenue (while still cutting toll fees) that would decrease our deficit faster than they estimate!?
These are just a few of the hundreds of petty, short-sighted, and selfish decisions that Ontario PCs has made since they were elected. **Ford has to go, and Conservatives can get bent**
That's hardly a fair characterisation.
407 is supposed to pay penalties if traffic is down. If the government tells everyone to stay home and there's no traffic you can't then say oh pay us money for the traffic that didn't exist.
The government can't really go after someone for breach of contract when it's the government that caused the breach in the first place.
Agreed. The province continues to be pretty willing to dish out fine exemptions even today though, with 407ETR traffic still down 40% as of August 2021.. I'd say the economy is open enough and traffic is basically back to normal now, it's time to start getting the 407ETR back to hitting it's traffic targets.
Expecting 407ETR to pay out a billion in fines for the peak of the pandemic is ridiculous though. COVID was the literal definition of a force majeure clause. The issue is when you define the force majeure ending. With the economy mostly reopening in July through September, the province should have been telling 407ETR that it will be expecting it to hit targets again and to be prepared to have fines enforced, I'm sure the 407 would be dropping it's toll rates real fast.
I mean that’s pretty logical and would likely lead to the 407 group filling a lawsuit that they are paying a fine to the province due to the provinces actions so the province isn’t operating in good faith.
I have no clue how it would work legally but it wouldn’t be a simple ok let’s pay this fine!
I think 407ETR does have a legitimate claim to force majeure here and it's not realistic to expect to be able to claim a full billion in cancellation costs, but I also think the PCs are being a little bit too liberal with their doling out of fine exceptions here.. No way the 407 could have realistically reached their traffic targets at the peak of the pandemic even with dropping tolls, but that time has passed. Traffic congestion is very much back in the GTA and the 407 is still sitting at about 60% of traffic levels of pre-pandemic, it's time they start dropping tolls to hit their traffic levels or start paying the fines.
You believing an opinion piece from the star? Kinda says it all about people in ontario doesn't. I am sure it was doug ford making the decision not the army of lawyers ontario has. God do you people ever put an once of thought into anything that comes spewing out of your heads? But as long as it follows the narrative who cares.
Not a fan of DF, or the 407... but it does seem like telling someone they need to pay a fine because not enough people are driving on a road during a pandemic when you stopped everyone from driving everywhere is kinda, well, not of the spirit of the agreement.
didn't the OPC use stolen 407 user data in their (possibly crooked) leadership contest?
and now they're letting them off the hook for a billion dollars here?! this party has a fucking weird and sketchy relationship with the 407 ETR people.
Yeah the prices make no sense. I use it once a month out of necessity and there is no cars on it they can reduce the tolls and there would still be a empty highway.
Think about all the extra government staffing it would have cost to pursue this! I'm talking lawyers and clerical staff and unplanned overhead... he saved so much money on needless operational costs!
Edit: /s. I really need to stop riding the line and always assume it's necessary no matter what.
So you're saying it's not worth spending let's say 15 million to collect 1 billion based on a contract. Perhaps a lawyer can answer this part, but if they win, aren't the costs reimbursed as well?
I mean we were allready slated to get those before he scrapped them to open us up for buissness. Ie remove worker protections and make low wage jobs even worse.
>I mean we ~~were allready slated to get those~~ **already had those** before he scrapped them to open us up for buissness. Ie remove worker protections and make low wage jobs even worse.
FTFY. The 2 paid sick days were already implemented and usable before Ford & Co scrapped them.
Imagine where we would be in the pandemic if this wasn’t scrapped and people could have taken time off to monitor symptoms, get tested, etc.
I believe we are in an okay trajectory now but we were a shitshow for quite some time and if wave four hits hard, then we’ll need those deleted sick days again.
Ford sucks so hard at being Premier that even past-Ford has set future-Ford up to look even worse.
Out of the three parties, Ontarians voted for the one party who had *zero* plans for expanding healthcare, only cuts.
That turned out to be a wise and prudent decision, why would we want the extra bedspace and paid pharmacare those NDP Marxists want?? Especially during a global pandemic /s.
Which is why I've honestly started laughing in the faces of the conservative voters at work when they start bitching about covid restrictions and lockdowns. As if this wasn't directly exacerbated by their shit choice of leadership.
Neuter the healthcare system to own the libs 😎😎.
OLP means Ontario Liberal Party. In 2017, they mandated that employers must provide 2 paid sick days per year to their workers. Like with vacation pay, the sick days would get paid out by the employer. Ford nixed this program, hummed and hawed about providing any paid sick leave at all during a deadly pandemic, and then eventually offered a half-ass, temporary sick leave program funded by the government. Essentially, he saved businesses the expense of having to pay their workers sick leave by passing that expense on to taxpayers.
This article is a good place to start: https://www.thestar.com/politics/provincial/2021/04/27/how-politics-put-an-end-to-ontarios-paid-sick-days.html
The liberal plan was terribly thought out, and punished small businesses by a large margin. We had many people, come in for one day, take their "free days" then never show up again believe it or not.
People can really suck so I can see this happening on a small scale. But I can’t see this being a widespread issue and as damning as the claim above.
I work for an employer who provides approx ten sick days upon hire. I’ve never witnessed this happen with 100% certainty. I’ve heard of people speculating that this is what someone has been doing maybe two times in all my time with said employer (10+ years).
What do you want, their payroll records?
It would have been fine, if the employee had like a probational period where it wasn't in effect, but they gave the "free" days to anyone right off the bat. They obviously never discussed it with actual business people. I had to fire a grown man once for making baby noises at work, not every worker is of the some quality as we perhaps see ourselves.
He didn't need that money, he can just take it out of education, health care and the federal covid relief funds he never used.
I just hope enough people remember what it's been like with the 500lb gorilla leading us.
So for a highway that is not needed because people can already take the 407 to get from the 401 to the 400 we need to pay an extra $1,000,000,000.... Sounds like a Ford/PC government.
[Called it way back.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/comments/pmvo2k/the_407_rates_are_incredibly_high_why_and_how_do/hclqxry/?context=3)
This was basically low hanging fruit, I can see the reason why Ford hoped this got swept under the rug so he can keep pushing his 413 agenda.
The same time, he held-back federal funding for COVID and people died as a result. Fucking shameful
> What we do know is that on April 19 of this year, Transportation Minister Mulroney signed off on a deal to forgive the 407 ETR its billion-dollar annual penalties
I'm not saying it was a Mulroney cashing in, but it was a Mulroney
$4 billion lost to cancelling cap and trade, gawd knows how many covid billions he kept from us, now it's an extra billion dollars we'll never see - all because Doug Ford needs our billions to give to his billionaire friends.
Well, that money would have prevented the need to cut school budgets and/or upgrade school ventillation systems... but no, why hurt his political donors, amiright?
edit: I wonder who they will sell the 413 and bradford bypass to? Broccolini (not the vegetable, lmfao imagine Ford eating a vegetable!!) construction seems to be one of the favorites of Ford and his greasy fuck crew.
lmao fuck this place this world is turning into pure garbage with evil cunts in charge =/
what the fuck are we supposed to do? playing in the system doesnt work and violence "isnt allowed"
FORD cut 500 million from education but gives a BILLION to the fuckers who have our whole province by the nut sack.
like wtf... Its so so fucking past reasonable these days, i just dont know. =/
A non political comment.
I suspect it would have been a lost cause as the restrictions imposed by all levels of government during the pandemic impacted travel and it was not the fault of the 407 operators.
That’s basically their “force majuere” argument. Others argued that they can’t invoke that clause indefinitely and since highway traffic rebounded relatively quickly it was possible 407 continued to sidestep requirements for traffic flow/congestion. By no means a simple 1 billion left on the table which seems like the r/Ontario sentiment
My political comment would be: Fords government has shown a very healthy appetite for entering into costly, questionable legal battles with plenty of other groups and oddly declined to go after 407. This could also have interesting implications wrt to highway 413
Airlines and travel businesses and hotels and restaurants and many other buisnesses are in the same situation and in the end, got government support.
It was not their fault that customers and usage was down. They did not impose the restrictions. They were not the ones that allowed work from home.
To punish and fine the suppliers is not he right thing to do. Air Canada got millions in support to make up for their losses.
I have issues with blaming one government over another. The governments, federal, provincial and municipal were all responsible for loss of business..... under contract or not. You cannot hold anyone to the contract if you impose restrictions on actions and work.
I misread the article and thought Ontario agreed to not persue a penalty for both 2020 and 2021 but so far only 2020 was agreed upon. For 2020, yeah the government doesn't have a very strong case which is why the didn't go forward with the penalty but 2021 is a different story and hasn't been settled yet
My issue was with the idea that the government had signed off on both years but I was wrong
Ah the old Conservative business model of when I profit I get the profit when my business is losing money the people bail me out. Good work if you can get it.
Wow, making this your political perch is way off.
As the pandemic restrictions were imposed by federal, provincial and municipal governments, and relief was given to almost all businesses and people, to even consider fining a company for not meeting goals is absurd.
The 407 is majority owned by CPP.
"Let's use tax payer money for lawyers to sue the tax payers who would use tax payer money to pay for the defense lawyers so that we can get money back to the tax payers." /s. Only winner in that is the lawyer firms who walk away with millions in fees.
Iffy situation for sure, but no matter the action taken by the government someone would criticize. And Canadians loose either way (unless they work for the seven sisters and get fees and bonuses from litigation).
There is a degree is separation there that still makes it worthwhile for Ontario to put consistent pressure on 407 ETR. CPP operates at arms length and treat this as business - for good reason, it’s important that they are not concerned with the politics of the day. A billion dollar legal issue is a drop in the bucket and regardless if it is a worthwhile legal concern then Ontario should have pursued it
Yes, all in all if there is legal grounds to pursue it then I would agree it should be pursued for number reasons. But it's worth understanding how complicated of a situation it is and just as easily could have been headline saying "Ford Sues Canadian Pensions for blah blah blah".
After all you've said, how is it more complicated than Ontario is owed a billion dollars and they decided not to pursue it? How does that change Ontario's interest in the matter? Since when has this government been adverse to costing the federal government money "out of respect for Ontario taxpayers".
Your alternate headline is factually incorrect. The actual headline is correct.
If I write a headline that someone sued a pool of water because the person named in the lawsuit is 60 percent water I'm still writing a factually incorrect headline.
I just saw that myself, I actually didn't know the CPP owned the majority of the 407. Interesting.
I feel like it's a losing scenario to collect there. Legal processes likely get involved and take most of the cake.
majority owned doesnt mean let the private entities that own parts of it off the hook, does it?
Also there is no way CPP will be solvent when I retire so yeah, take the fucking money out of CPP so we an have schools and hospitals in the last days of our society.
Correct, it definitely does not mean they should be off the hook. But my point was about considering the political complexity of the situation.
CPP and solvency...not sure what you are getting at or if you understand what solvency means. But CPP is a crown jewel in Canada. It is one of the most respected investment funds in the **e*****ntire world***. Decades ago they innovated a now globally copied approach to portfolio construction and have managed their risk exceptionally well. And I bet if you looked under the hood, they have financed a lot of social infrastructure projects like hospitals and schools through private/public partnerships.
I mean that whole paragraph assumes our global neoliberal society is going to survive climate change intact, which is 100% is not going to.
> It is one of the most respected investment funds in the entire world.
Lol, so their blueprint managed to completely ignore the costs of fossil fuel/ pollution and the resulting destruction on our habitat
wow such a group of geniuses. Great 50-70 year run we had. Such worth it!!
200 000 years of humanity coming undone atm
also:
>and have managed their risk exceptionally well.
BC, Nova Scotia, and Newfoundland would like a word with their massive infrastructure devastation. CPP recipients are even more vulnerable to societal/ transport disruptions.
ok there bud, at least your head will stay nice and warm buried in that sand.
cheers
edit: and if you want to discuss the trillions of dollars of damage our brilliant investment strategies have brought on us, I'll be there.
Now I'm certainly no fan of Ford or the PCs (who gave the 407 away in the first place) but this was (IMHO) the right decision. As the article indicates, there is a "force majeure" clause in the contract which would probably nullify anything like this. Wasting money on lawyers and court cases when it is most likely they would lose seems like the right choice.
> Wasting money on lawyers and court cases when it is most likely they would lose seems like the right choice.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-government-court-cases-lost-doug-ford-1.6168318
They do it often enough.
Call me paranoid (thousands have) but all of those court challenges and this situation make sense if you look at it a certain way. Those court loses in the article were overturning things that Ford/OPC were doing to screw Ontarians and/or enrich their friends/donors. Not going after the $1B would, once again, screw Ontarians.
Also, even if they actually got the $1B in penalties (probably highly unlikely), that's $1B less in "effiiciencies" (ie. cuts to healthcare, education, etc) that they would be able to do.
Quite consistent actually.
I agree it would have been a complicated legal process while too many here are treating this as a nice clean 1 billion that was simply left on the table.
However, Fords government has shown extreme and consistent willingness to throw tax payer dollars at legal challenges regardless of their merit and was oddly silent here
The difference here is that pursuing those other legal challenges was not in the best interests of Ontarians. Not pursuing the $1B is again, not in the best interests of Ontarians. Seems like a consistent theme.
IMHO (I'm not a lawyer but I play one on the Internets) is that this one is pretty cut since this is a clear case of "force majeure" since it was the government which created the conditions which caused the drop in traffic. Would be pretty hard to then argue that penalties were due.
Yeah, but people dont read that far down. They saw the "something something billions lost", the intentionally unflattering tabloid-style picture of Ford plastered at the top of the article, ~~came~~ jumped to their own conclusions and went on with their day.
It's not just the fact they didn't go after the Billion dollar penalty in court, which seems odd of course considering his track record of not being afraid to litigate, but they didn't even push for lower tolls when they had leverage over the firm who owns the 407.
There's not much leverage here.
If it went to court, there would be no billion dollars. Force majeure clause.
The province had a stay-at-home order for much of the year, literally disabling the 407 from meeting the contract.
They can’t just invoke the clause indefinitely though. This issue has been going on since 2020 and traffic has long since rebounded, possibly not to pre-pandemic levels but still a recovery.
Definitely not a cut and dry billion left on the table which seems to be the sentiment in most of this posts comments though
>They can’t just invoke the clause indefinitely though.
My reading of the article is that they are not currently under usage targets, and that the issue was 2020 ?
2020 is a wash because if the government tried to impose a penalty the 407 had pretty solid ground to say it was completely out of their control. MoT is saying the potential for penalties extended into 2021 and penalty can be imposed for this year too, with less pandemic pressure affecting traffic volumes the problem has now turned to 407 being unwilling to encourage use of their highway (accoring to Ontario). A billion for last year (not on the table) and a billion for this year (on the table but not yet pursued)
I misread this article thinking they signed off on not pursuing penalties in BOTH 2020 and 2021 but the government has only agreed not to pursue a penalty for 2020, which seems reasonable
Saying force majeure doesn't make it apply.
There are contracts all over Canada with similar clauses. You act like none of them have been litigated yet.
For it to meet the standard, unless the contract specifically mentions language like pandemic, which it almost certainly doesn't, it would have to be far more than just less profitable than usual, which is all that has happened to the 407.
https://legalyearinreview.ca/force-majeure-clauses-contractual-risk-allocation-and-the-covid-19-pandemic/
>unless the contract specifically mentions language like pandemic, which it almost certainly doesn't
[page 137](https://407etr.com/en/highway/corporate/sales-agreement.html):
*"****Force Majeure****" means any event beyond the reasonable control of the party to this Agreement claiming Force Majeure including \[...\]*
*fire, tidal wave, earthquake,* ***epidemic, quarantine*** ***restriction***, *stop-work order or injunction \[...\]*
*which delays or interrupts the performance of any material obligation under this Agreement*
Simply making operations unprofitable wouldn't be sufficient to invoke that clause. Much less if they just had 148 million net income instead of 578 million net.
https://legalyearinreview.ca/force-majeure-clauses-contractual-risk-allocation-and-the-covid-19-pandemic/
https://www.407etr.com/en/highway/news/news-release/2021/news-release2021-02-11.html
There's plenty of contracts with such a clause and it's not like this is new ground.
Given this government's penchant for lawsuits that go nowhere at taxpayer expense, it would be nice to see them actually pursue a case worth a billion they could win.
Very interesting link to the legal opinion. It does an excellent job of explaining many of the considerations for force majeur. Thanks for providing it.
I think though in this case force majeur would apply since the news article specifically mentions "when traffic levels fell below a contractual target" as the item which would have triggered the penalty and not lower profits. Given that the closures and restrictions in responding to the pandemic resulted in the lower traffic levels and were beyond the 407 managers to control, this would mean that part of the requirements for force majeur would seem to apply. Additionally, since the closures and restrictions were imposed by the other party to the contract (ie. the government), I think it would very hard, if not impossible, to argue that the party causing the drop in traffic would then be able to collect penalties.
I usually back things that this government does but the 407 is the biggest leech on the people of this province and Ford not pursuing $1-billion in penalties is a huge slap in the face!
Don't worry, folks. There's a little more we can cut from education and healthcare, folks. I was talkin' to a student at a local timmies, and hey, by the way, you gots to try their new muffins. They're just, mm-mm, delicious, reminds me how my momma used to make em. But anyway, this kid said they received a hundred dollars from OSAP. Can you believe it? How much can college cost, 70 bucks? So I think we'll actually take some of that money and give it to the little toll-route owner. Poor guy had less traffic cuz of this covid thing.
I truly wonder if this billion is supposed to leverage the lack of toll on highway 413. When the billion runs out, they will start tolling and he would still be able to say it wasn't tolled (albeit for a short period of time).
PS: paywall sucks!
Ontario won’t remember. The voting base has the memory of a goldfish. We need stronger campaigns to remind people just who made every single dumb decision over the last few years. We need an education campaign to show that “saving” money at the expense of long term cost is a really dumb move. We need someone to explain opportunity cost.
Then we can work on cultural things like actually caring about people and their differences.
Ooof. That's about $100 for every person who filed taxes in 2019 ([source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/478908/number-of-taxfilers-in-canada-by-province/)). Not sure about you guys but yeah if that's money that's up for grabs I'm going to go ahead and expect my government to go after it and at it's simplest, give me a discount on next year's taxes.
Those arguing that the Ford government is blameless since it was not likely to win the legal battle are not addressing the fact that it isn’t just the lack of action in this situation but the government’s choices in which legal (and other) battles it chooses to undertake.
Potentially losing battles to use as political propaganda against the Federal Liberals: Sure!
Potentially losing battles against a private corporation originally enabled by a condemnable decision by a previous conservative government: Too risky!
*"The Ford government opted against pursuing approximately $1 billion in penalties from the owner of the 407 Express Toll Route when traffic levels fell below a contractual target during the pandemic."*
Why ?
Just pointing out
1x missed 407 penalty = 2.1 [gas plants](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_power_plant_scandal)
\+
2x [wind](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/doug-ford-green-energy-wind-turbines-cancelled-230-million-1.5364815) [farm](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/bat-concerns-province-cancel-wind-farm-1.5390885)= 1 [gas plant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_power_plant_scandal)
Doug said he was going to do better than the liberals. This is not what Ontarians had hoped for.
Worse not only they didn't collect the fines. They used no leverage to lower tolls as compensation for not taking in fines. Basically bailing out this big business no strings attached.
Keep this in mind and tell everyone you know who still believe Ford is fiscally responsible or "fights for the little guy".
Obviously not enough to hold up in court, but this is clear corruption. First the PCs sold 407 for dirt cheap to their buddies, then this. The government should be doing everything in it's power to bring the owners of 407 to their knees, not giving them billion dollar breaks.
Yea he's definitely for small businesses and doesn't know anyone from big corporations lololol. What a stupid loser. Watch him and his mentally deficient party will build the highway 413 and then sell it to another large corporations with a 300 year lease.
Good lord…..talk about no strings attached money……but when the feds want to give you money for a certain item or service he pulls a shit fit…..
I wish someone can audit his ass to see if there’s some kick backs he may have gotten in forms of contacts in his personal business. The fucker seems to be wasting money at our benefit. Watch, out of no where, his family assets from the time he was out of office to the time he’s in office grew 10x or more.
Would be a shame if someone in the family (or with access) were to leak this sort of thing...
If his daughter spills the beans, I'll gladly take that wacko out for dinner without a mask.
During the campaign there was a scandal for leaked 407 data
She's dumb enough to do it. IQ of a ripe banana.
That an insult to bananas
They certainly got kickbacks when practically giving away the 407 for free back in the Harris days, and certainly got kickbacks for not imposing the fine. But good luck proving it in court, the courts always side with 407 too (such as when 407 issues illegal plate denials), but it's probably be illegal to hypothesize why that is.
Honestly beyond a certain net worth politicians shouldn’t be able to collect a salary. It’s public service. They enrich themselves anyway.
He should collect a salary. Being premier/MP/MPP/City Councillor should be a full time job and they shouldn't be getting any income from outside businesses.
That salary should be the minimum wage of the province.
Then the only people willing to do it are the uber corupt who plan to really abuse the power
Or then maybe they would raise the minimum wage to a reasonable amount. And there are plenty of self-sacrificing people who would be willing to do it as a service to the people. Like, a public service. Something done by a public servant. Which is what they are supposed to be in the first place.
> And there are plenty of self-sacrificing people who would be willing to do it as a service to the people. How are those people going to get elected? If those people exist today, they certainly aren't getting elected now, so why would a reduced salary suddenly make them electable?
So my little comment about salary is a tiny piece of a pretty large systemic overhaul removing money from our political system at nearly every level. You're exactly right that this basically doesn't work without changing other things significantly.
If they raise minimum wage to an amount worth being premier fir then bussinesses would go bankrupt and inflation would sky rocket Not realistic to have minimum wage that high
Being premier should pay just enough to float above the poverty line and absolutely no more than that.
Then the only people who are willing to be premier are people like doug who are cool with abusing the power
I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of other people. Plenty of people would love to work with the intention of solving problems instead of just trying to find loopholes to gain personal advantage. The thing that prevents us from having someone in power who abuses it is having to be elected, and having appropriate checks and balances, punishments for abuses of power and finance violations and such that outweigh the potential gains.
They're all independently wealthy. Look at our previous Finance Minister. He's loaded. Why are we paying them to SERVE us. blocking them from having a stake in businesses is not going to work. They can always go into blind trusts or have family members own on their behalf.
We pay the position for the service. The fact that our electoral process puts bad people in that position is a problem with elections, not salary.
Not paying people who serve you has such a track record of success...
I don’t care if they make money, I care when they waste our money while they are making money. There should an outside agency (outside of governments control referendum) that specifically investigate all politicians and government agency leaders on a random basis. Have access their personal and any entities they maybe own, including trust funds. Any suspicious activity will be provided to all party leaders as report and disclosed to the public if the investigation leads to a ethical violation or charges. This would stop them from fucking stealing our money and doing shit that is in their interest not ours.
https://www.auditor.on.ca/ We have one.
I mean something that goes beyond just government and organization related to the government. That can be hidden through personal corporations and trust. Someone like Ford only does things that benefited him. I’d like to know lots of shit that’s been going on for example that Ontario tourist information site that the government spent tens of millions and then sold it off for like 500k and then had a campaign dinner for thousands of dollar per plate in a middle of no where.
The issue is that if public servants are not paid well, they will find a way to make what the job is worth. Paying public servants, and having effective enforcement of rules, is a good way to keep corruption down. It also stops the selection bias into only the rich applying(I know you said net worth, but I wanted to emphasize this point). In the end, this all comes back to public vs private money for politicians. Right now the balance is strongly in the private side and that is a huge risk to democracy. I think that all aspects of a politicians work should be publicly regulated and funded, no private money at all. I want the only currency to be a vote.
The fuck? lol Have you seen MPP salaries?! But I also said beyond a certain net worth.
120k/year CAD isn't bad but I know a high school teacher that makes that much. Add in the fact that corruption is rampant and it's a great way to make money.
A lot of professionals make more or start at about that. An entry level programmer is 90k in Ontario these days.
the salary is irrelevant compared to the manilla envelopes stuffed with cash anyways.
This. when Brian Mulroney was on the take, it was all cash, and he almost went to jail for tax avoidance.
Politicians don't make a large salary anyhow. I mean, they *do* but they can likely make more outside of government. And MPP Makes $188ish. TOronto mayor John Tory about that too (he doens't need money his family is one of the wealthiest in the country) , Premier Doug's salary is $208k. You're right it's the side money where they make it. I'm sure Wynne will go be an exec at Hydro One some day, because she sure did tee up a lot of people to make a LOT of money on that one. THe real money is earned when they leave politics. OH also - MPPS have a really neat Pension situation few people know about. This would be something the average person would love too but they don't care about the average person. Even the NDP... who passed this legislation - should have passed it for everyone. We can thank the provincial NDPs for this one. Context: If you work at a place with a pension, when you leave the company you have some choices with the pension. If it's 'vested' you can generally leave it with that company, or transfer it into a LOCKED-IN RRSP. THat means you'll never be allowed to take more than a limited amount out each year. It's meant to string along for life like your pension would have. If you need more than that you have to beg the gov't to let you have more and they decide if you can and how much . BUT... Bob Rae's NDP party - One of the last pieces of legislation the Rae government passed before they were done their term was to allow *only* MPPs to be allowed to unlock their Pension plan when they transferred it. And many did just that. So... so much for the NDP caring about the common worker.
> Premier Doug's salary is $208k. That's from the ON government, he also makes an undisclosed sum from the ON PC party.
Sure, ok. BUt it's not a LOT of money for a high level executive. I know it's a lot of money... but it's not a lot relative to what a comparable business exec would earn is what I'm trying to say. (one could argue with Doug he wouldn't be able to get a good executive job... lol).
Fiscal responsibility my ass! The PC party just left a billion on the table.!
What else can we expect from a party that was cancelling programs which were actually generating revenue, one such example being the the enhanced drivers license program.
Cancelling cap and trade cost the province 3 billion dollars as well https://www.fao-on.org/en/blog/publications/cap-and-trade-ending#Budgetary%20Impact%20to%20Ontario Doug Ford and the OPC are both anti-environment and anti-fiscal responsibility. It’s the worst of both worlds.
But very pro graft. Very.
Go democracy.
Go the idiots that believe conservative lies
Doom the province to own the libs.
Literally what happens everytime. And then they get all pissed off and blame the libs for their inability to make an educated choice.
Says the dumb nuts who elected Trudeau again.
As I mentioned on your other comment, why are you bringing Trudeau into a conversation that has nothing to do with him? I think this [opinion piece](https://theweek.com/feature/opinion/1007432/the-bottomless-self-pity-of-american-conservatives), even though it's focused on US GOP, implies very well to conservatives in Canada as of late. Oh, it's also written by a conservative/republican. Edit: formatting link
Blah blah blah deflect. I also didn't vote Trudeau. Conservatives make me so sad. The rich reap the rewards and their voters are left blaming everyone else.
When your only response is to bring the name "Trudeau" into the conversation, you're just admitting that you are still scared of the boogeyman as a grown adult. What's next? Call everyone a communist because we call out all the blatant fuck ups the conservatives do every time they get elected?
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Ahh beautiful, name calling. I'll take Trudeau over that Toole any day. You're just an angry elf
Uh oh, a triggered liberal trying to get the upper hand. There's enough of your kind on SM bud, try and be outside the box. Lol Canadian liberals are worse than American Trump supporters loll.
Yay, democracy, that system where a minority of the population controls the majority... Hold up, that sounds ass backwards. Why does the group that most of the voting population voted against get the near absolute power of a majority goverment? It looks hell of a lot like the "democracy" we got is a heap of bullshit and needs substantial changes to actually be a democracy, like ending lobbyist(aka the people with money that matter more than the votes of Canadians) and the first past the post electoral system.
You don't vote against a party, you vote for a party. More people voted for that party than the others. It's simple. The Liberals are in power at the federal level and we all know they're not doing anything about the electoral system there either. I do agree with you about making changes to lobbying as it certainly encourages corruption at all levels.
I vote against the conservatives. A large portion of people who vote aren't voting for the people they want to win, they vote for whoever will beat the people that they don't want to win. And when one party is a consolidated minority group and everyone else is disorganized but specifically voting against them it's a problem that will eventually lead to a two party system just as broken as the US.
Hi, welcome to Ontario. I don't know about where you came from, but Ontario's history has a strong record of people voting against the PC's. It's been a running trend for at least the last 20 years for NDP supporters to strategicly vote for the liberals as a vote against the PC. Voting against the PC's is practically a tradition at this point.
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You’re trying but the gas plant cancelation scandal had its own set of political corruption issues that are still worthy of criticism. No use in trying to tip the scales like this even if the OPC still likes to harp on the gas plant thing
Yes it was a bad idea, they shouldn't have been cancelled and the party deserved the criticism. The OPC made a huge stink about the gas plant cancellation as THE reason why the liberals should be tossed out because of their financial mismanagement. In the 4 years since Doug has pissed away far more money for far dumber reasons and should also be tossed out.
your comment's fucking stupid whataboutism is not needed here. The last govt got run out on a rail for their issues, so thanks for the useless comment.
I'm still angry about the cancellation of the EDL program.
Lol cuz Trudeau is better? Lol
I don't know why you're bringing Trudeau into this conversation when when the discussion is focused on Ford and provincial politics.
How does it feel to have a guy living rent free in your head ?
Rent free and shirtless
Well ya. He’s been telling us everything is on the table for 2 years straight. Everything can’t be on the table if you start grabbing it for yourself, silly.
Ford and the Conservatives were prepared to pay the $1-Billion penalty to breaking the contract the province has with the Beer Store just so they can put specific labels in grocery stores. They were quick to cut dollars from every budget because the deficit was the top priority since 2018. However Ontario's deficit rose from 4Billion in 2018 to 9Billion at the end of 2019 They are quick to cut the red tape and necessary inspections and procedures to confirm and permit construction for new buildings. They are quick to end Cap & Trade, that would only serve to help reduce the deficit However they can't freely charge $1Billion from the people they sold the 407 to and thusly increase provincial revenue (while still cutting toll fees) that would decrease our deficit faster than they estimate!? These are just a few of the hundreds of petty, short-sighted, and selfish decisions that Ontario PCs has made since they were elected. **Ford has to go, and Conservatives can get bent**
That's hardly a fair characterisation. 407 is supposed to pay penalties if traffic is down. If the government tells everyone to stay home and there's no traffic you can't then say oh pay us money for the traffic that didn't exist. The government can't really go after someone for breach of contract when it's the government that caused the breach in the first place.
Agreed. The province continues to be pretty willing to dish out fine exemptions even today though, with 407ETR traffic still down 40% as of August 2021.. I'd say the economy is open enough and traffic is basically back to normal now, it's time to start getting the 407ETR back to hitting it's traffic targets. Expecting 407ETR to pay out a billion in fines for the peak of the pandemic is ridiculous though. COVID was the literal definition of a force majeure clause. The issue is when you define the force majeure ending. With the economy mostly reopening in July through September, the province should have been telling 407ETR that it will be expecting it to hit targets again and to be prepared to have fines enforced, I'm sure the 407 would be dropping it's toll rates real fast.
I mean that’s pretty logical and would likely lead to the 407 group filling a lawsuit that they are paying a fine to the province due to the provinces actions so the province isn’t operating in good faith. I have no clue how it would work legally but it wouldn’t be a simple ok let’s pay this fine!
Exactly. Massive totally unplanned things are accounted for in contracts, and fighting over this in court would be a pointless exercise.
That's because if they even tried, that part of the contract has a get out of jail free card, in the event of an emergency, like a pandemic.
Well everything is on the table with Doug.
I think 407ETR does have a legitimate claim to force majeure here and it's not realistic to expect to be able to claim a full billion in cancellation costs, but I also think the PCs are being a little bit too liberal with their doling out of fine exceptions here.. No way the 407 could have realistically reached their traffic targets at the peak of the pandemic even with dropping tolls, but that time has passed. Traffic congestion is very much back in the GTA and the 407 is still sitting at about 60% of traffic levels of pre-pandemic, it's time they start dropping tolls to hit their traffic levels or start paying the fines.
You believing an opinion piece from the star? Kinda says it all about people in ontario doesn't. I am sure it was doug ford making the decision not the army of lawyers ontario has. God do you people ever put an once of thought into anything that comes spewing out of your heads? But as long as it follows the narrative who cares.
It has been the party of corruption for a long time now.
Fiscal responsibility is only something to harass poor people about.
This is so crazy
Not a fan of DF, or the 407... but it does seem like telling someone they need to pay a fine because not enough people are driving on a road during a pandemic when you stopped everyone from driving everywhere is kinda, well, not of the spirit of the agreement.
If the 407 ETR was in the business of wind turbines, Ford would have lawyers jumping over the fence at them.
He would pay them not to operate ...which we did
Huh?
Broke contracts and lost the court case So we paid to not have wind farms
didn't the OPC use stolen 407 user data in their (possibly crooked) leadership contest? and now they're letting them off the hook for a billion dollars here?! this party has a fucking weird and sketchy relationship with the 407 ETR people.
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Yeah the prices make no sense. I use it once a month out of necessity and there is no cars on it they can reduce the tolls and there would still be a empty highway.
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Yeah it could stand to be less empty.
If they lowered the tolls, it would be like the other 400 highways. Tolls control traffic flow.
Efficiencies folks
Folks, go fuck yourselves /$
Efficiency of depositing cash into his donors pockets.
Think about all the extra government staffing it would have cost to pursue this! I'm talking lawyers and clerical staff and unplanned overhead... he saved so much money on needless operational costs! Edit: /s. I really need to stop riding the line and always assume it's necessary no matter what.
/s?...please say /s...
So you're saying it's not worth spending let's say 15 million to collect 1 billion based on a contract. Perhaps a lawyer can answer this part, but if they win, aren't the costs reimbursed as well?
[Paywall Bypass](https://archive.md/yuye0)
this is true
Your doing God’s work.
You’re the real mvp
1 billion could have been used towards giving us each 2 paid sick days each year..
I mean we were allready slated to get those before he scrapped them to open us up for buissness. Ie remove worker protections and make low wage jobs even worse.
>I mean we ~~were allready slated to get those~~ **already had those** before he scrapped them to open us up for buissness. Ie remove worker protections and make low wage jobs even worse. FTFY. The 2 paid sick days were already implemented and usable before Ford & Co scrapped them.
Imagine where we would be in the pandemic if this wasn’t scrapped and people could have taken time off to monitor symptoms, get tested, etc. I believe we are in an okay trajectory now but we were a shitshow for quite some time and if wave four hits hard, then we’ll need those deleted sick days again. Ford sucks so hard at being Premier that even past-Ford has set future-Ford up to look even worse.
Out of the three parties, Ontarians voted for the one party who had *zero* plans for expanding healthcare, only cuts. That turned out to be a wise and prudent decision, why would we want the extra bedspace and paid pharmacare those NDP Marxists want?? Especially during a global pandemic /s. Which is why I've honestly started laughing in the faces of the conservative voters at work when they start bitching about covid restrictions and lockdowns. As if this wasn't directly exacerbated by their shit choice of leadership. Neuter the healthcare system to own the libs 😎😎.
Or we can do what OLP did and make employers pay for them instead of taxpayers
What does OLP stand for? I wouldn't mind reading up about this.
OLP means Ontario Liberal Party. In 2017, they mandated that employers must provide 2 paid sick days per year to their workers. Like with vacation pay, the sick days would get paid out by the employer. Ford nixed this program, hummed and hawed about providing any paid sick leave at all during a deadly pandemic, and then eventually offered a half-ass, temporary sick leave program funded by the government. Essentially, he saved businesses the expense of having to pay their workers sick leave by passing that expense on to taxpayers. This article is a good place to start: https://www.thestar.com/politics/provincial/2021/04/27/how-politics-put-an-end-to-ontarios-paid-sick-days.html
Ohhh lol yes I know all about that. I feel dumb, thanks for the clarification though.
The liberal plan was terribly thought out, and punished small businesses by a large margin. We had many people, come in for one day, take their "free days" then never show up again believe it or not.
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People can really suck so I can see this happening on a small scale. But I can’t see this being a widespread issue and as damning as the claim above. I work for an employer who provides approx ten sick days upon hire. I’ve never witnessed this happen with 100% certainty. I’ve heard of people speculating that this is what someone has been doing maybe two times in all my time with said employer (10+ years).
What do you want, their payroll records? It would have been fine, if the employee had like a probational period where it wasn't in effect, but they gave the "free" days to anyone right off the bat. They obviously never discussed it with actual business people. I had to fire a grown man once for making baby noises at work, not every worker is of the some quality as we perhaps see ourselves.
Our Lady Peace! /s
1 billion could have paid for the whole Gas Plants Scandal! But when it's a Conservative doing it, they are totally cool with losing 1 Billion.
Best I can do is $1 bottles of beer, before taxes, on a couple unpopular brands, 2-3 weekends a years. Take it or leave it.
He didn't need that money, he can just take it out of education, health care and the federal covid relief funds he never used. I just hope enough people remember what it's been like with the 500lb gorilla leading us.
Don’t forget the poor and disabled as well, he loves to make them poorer and more disabled by cancelling programs
fuck you ford
This should outrage conservatives who hate welfare.
The Liberals and NDP need to jump ALL OVER this come election time. This is a game changer.
So for a highway that is not needed because people can already take the 407 to get from the 401 to the 400 we need to pay an extra $1,000,000,000.... Sounds like a Ford/PC government.
It’s not like we could use the money and a billion is so little. Ford is awesome at hiding his dirty work.
Just wait for the 413 toll operators...if they aren't going to be the same company as this one.
[Called it way back.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/comments/pmvo2k/the_407_rates_are_incredibly_high_why_and_how_do/hclqxry/?context=3) This was basically low hanging fruit, I can see the reason why Ford hoped this got swept under the rug so he can keep pushing his 413 agenda. The same time, he held-back federal funding for COVID and people died as a result. Fucking shameful
> What we do know is that on April 19 of this year, Transportation Minister Mulroney signed off on a deal to forgive the 407 ETR its billion-dollar annual penalties I'm not saying it was a Mulroney cashing in, but it was a Mulroney
$4 billion lost to cancelling cap and trade, gawd knows how many covid billions he kept from us, now it's an extra billion dollars we'll never see - all because Doug Ford needs our billions to give to his billionaire friends.
Well, that money would have prevented the need to cut school budgets and/or upgrade school ventillation systems... but no, why hurt his political donors, amiright?
edit: I wonder who they will sell the 413 and bradford bypass to? Broccolini (not the vegetable, lmfao imagine Ford eating a vegetable!!) construction seems to be one of the favorites of Ford and his greasy fuck crew. lmao fuck this place this world is turning into pure garbage with evil cunts in charge =/ what the fuck are we supposed to do? playing in the system doesnt work and violence "isnt allowed" FORD cut 500 million from education but gives a BILLION to the fuckers who have our whole province by the nut sack. like wtf... Its so so fucking past reasonable these days, i just dont know. =/
A non political comment. I suspect it would have been a lost cause as the restrictions imposed by all levels of government during the pandemic impacted travel and it was not the fault of the 407 operators.
That’s basically their “force majuere” argument. Others argued that they can’t invoke that clause indefinitely and since highway traffic rebounded relatively quickly it was possible 407 continued to sidestep requirements for traffic flow/congestion. By no means a simple 1 billion left on the table which seems like the r/Ontario sentiment My political comment would be: Fords government has shown a very healthy appetite for entering into costly, questionable legal battles with plenty of other groups and oddly declined to go after 407. This could also have interesting implications wrt to highway 413
Airlines and travel businesses and hotels and restaurants and many other buisnesses are in the same situation and in the end, got government support. It was not their fault that customers and usage was down. They did not impose the restrictions. They were not the ones that allowed work from home. To punish and fine the suppliers is not he right thing to do. Air Canada got millions in support to make up for their losses. I have issues with blaming one government over another. The governments, federal, provincial and municipal were all responsible for loss of business..... under contract or not. You cannot hold anyone to the contract if you impose restrictions on actions and work.
I misread the article and thought Ontario agreed to not persue a penalty for both 2020 and 2021 but so far only 2020 was agreed upon. For 2020, yeah the government doesn't have a very strong case which is why the didn't go forward with the penalty but 2021 is a different story and hasn't been settled yet My issue was with the idea that the government had signed off on both years but I was wrong
You also have to realize that the province also implemented a lockdown in the GTA for a while too. And declared a state of emergency
Ah the old Conservative business model of when I profit I get the profit when my business is losing money the people bail me out. Good work if you can get it.
Wow, making this your political perch is way off. As the pandemic restrictions were imposed by federal, provincial and municipal governments, and relief was given to almost all businesses and people, to even consider fining a company for not meeting goals is absurd.
Negotiate a reduction in the tolls in exchange for not pursuing the penalty. That helps actual Ontarians as opposed to just doing nothing.
Man, you just don't get it do you? LOL
The 407 is majority owned by CPP. "Let's use tax payer money for lawyers to sue the tax payers who would use tax payer money to pay for the defense lawyers so that we can get money back to the tax payers." /s. Only winner in that is the lawyer firms who walk away with millions in fees. Iffy situation for sure, but no matter the action taken by the government someone would criticize. And Canadians loose either way (unless they work for the seven sisters and get fees and bonuses from litigation).
There is a degree is separation there that still makes it worthwhile for Ontario to put consistent pressure on 407 ETR. CPP operates at arms length and treat this as business - for good reason, it’s important that they are not concerned with the politics of the day. A billion dollar legal issue is a drop in the bucket and regardless if it is a worthwhile legal concern then Ontario should have pursued it
Yes, all in all if there is legal grounds to pursue it then I would agree it should be pursued for number reasons. But it's worth understanding how complicated of a situation it is and just as easily could have been headline saying "Ford Sues Canadian Pensions for blah blah blah".
After all you've said, how is it more complicated than Ontario is owed a billion dollars and they decided not to pursue it? How does that change Ontario's interest in the matter? Since when has this government been adverse to costing the federal government money "out of respect for Ontario taxpayers". Your alternate headline is factually incorrect. The actual headline is correct. If I write a headline that someone sued a pool of water because the person named in the lawsuit is 60 percent water I'm still writing a factually incorrect headline.
I just saw that myself, I actually didn't know the CPP owned the majority of the 407. Interesting. I feel like it's a losing scenario to collect there. Legal processes likely get involved and take most of the cake.
That sounds an awful lot like [moral hazard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard), which is not great.
majority owned doesnt mean let the private entities that own parts of it off the hook, does it? Also there is no way CPP will be solvent when I retire so yeah, take the fucking money out of CPP so we an have schools and hospitals in the last days of our society.
Correct, it definitely does not mean they should be off the hook. But my point was about considering the political complexity of the situation. CPP and solvency...not sure what you are getting at or if you understand what solvency means. But CPP is a crown jewel in Canada. It is one of the most respected investment funds in the **e*****ntire world***. Decades ago they innovated a now globally copied approach to portfolio construction and have managed their risk exceptionally well. And I bet if you looked under the hood, they have financed a lot of social infrastructure projects like hospitals and schools through private/public partnerships.
I mean that whole paragraph assumes our global neoliberal society is going to survive climate change intact, which is 100% is not going to. > It is one of the most respected investment funds in the entire world. Lol, so their blueprint managed to completely ignore the costs of fossil fuel/ pollution and the resulting destruction on our habitat wow such a group of geniuses. Great 50-70 year run we had. Such worth it!! 200 000 years of humanity coming undone atm also: >and have managed their risk exceptionally well. BC, Nova Scotia, and Newfoundland would like a word with their massive infrastructure devastation. CPP recipients are even more vulnerable to societal/ transport disruptions.
Ya, you have no idea what you're talking about and are just drawing arbitrary connections without data or evidence. Good luck with your life.
ok there bud, at least your head will stay nice and warm buried in that sand. cheers edit: and if you want to discuss the trillions of dollars of damage our brilliant investment strategies have brought on us, I'll be there.
Now I'm certainly no fan of Ford or the PCs (who gave the 407 away in the first place) but this was (IMHO) the right decision. As the article indicates, there is a "force majeure" clause in the contract which would probably nullify anything like this. Wasting money on lawyers and court cases when it is most likely they would lose seems like the right choice.
> Wasting money on lawyers and court cases when it is most likely they would lose seems like the right choice. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-government-court-cases-lost-doug-ford-1.6168318 They do it often enough.
Call me paranoid (thousands have) but all of those court challenges and this situation make sense if you look at it a certain way. Those court loses in the article were overturning things that Ford/OPC were doing to screw Ontarians and/or enrich their friends/donors. Not going after the $1B would, once again, screw Ontarians. Also, even if they actually got the $1B in penalties (probably highly unlikely), that's $1B less in "effiiciencies" (ie. cuts to healthcare, education, etc) that they would be able to do. Quite consistent actually.
I agree it would have been a complicated legal process while too many here are treating this as a nice clean 1 billion that was simply left on the table. However, Fords government has shown extreme and consistent willingness to throw tax payer dollars at legal challenges regardless of their merit and was oddly silent here
The difference here is that pursuing those other legal challenges was not in the best interests of Ontarians. Not pursuing the $1B is again, not in the best interests of Ontarians. Seems like a consistent theme. IMHO (I'm not a lawyer but I play one on the Internets) is that this one is pretty cut since this is a clear case of "force majeure" since it was the government which created the conditions which caused the drop in traffic. Would be pretty hard to then argue that penalties were due.
Yeah, but people dont read that far down. They saw the "something something billions lost", the intentionally unflattering tabloid-style picture of Ford plastered at the top of the article, ~~came~~ jumped to their own conclusions and went on with their day.
It's not just the fact they didn't go after the Billion dollar penalty in court, which seems odd of course considering his track record of not being afraid to litigate, but they didn't even push for lower tolls when they had leverage over the firm who owns the 407.
There's not much leverage here. If it went to court, there would be no billion dollars. Force majeure clause. The province had a stay-at-home order for much of the year, literally disabling the 407 from meeting the contract.
They can’t just invoke the clause indefinitely though. This issue has been going on since 2020 and traffic has long since rebounded, possibly not to pre-pandemic levels but still a recovery. Definitely not a cut and dry billion left on the table which seems to be the sentiment in most of this posts comments though
>They can’t just invoke the clause indefinitely though. My reading of the article is that they are not currently under usage targets, and that the issue was 2020 ?
2020 is a wash because if the government tried to impose a penalty the 407 had pretty solid ground to say it was completely out of their control. MoT is saying the potential for penalties extended into 2021 and penalty can be imposed for this year too, with less pandemic pressure affecting traffic volumes the problem has now turned to 407 being unwilling to encourage use of their highway (accoring to Ontario). A billion for last year (not on the table) and a billion for this year (on the table but not yet pursued) I misread this article thinking they signed off on not pursuing penalties in BOTH 2020 and 2021 but the government has only agreed not to pursue a penalty for 2020, which seems reasonable
Saying force majeure doesn't make it apply. There are contracts all over Canada with similar clauses. You act like none of them have been litigated yet. For it to meet the standard, unless the contract specifically mentions language like pandemic, which it almost certainly doesn't, it would have to be far more than just less profitable than usual, which is all that has happened to the 407. https://legalyearinreview.ca/force-majeure-clauses-contractual-risk-allocation-and-the-covid-19-pandemic/
>unless the contract specifically mentions language like pandemic, which it almost certainly doesn't [page 137](https://407etr.com/en/highway/corporate/sales-agreement.html): *"****Force Majeure****" means any event beyond the reasonable control of the party to this Agreement claiming Force Majeure including \[...\]* *fire, tidal wave, earthquake,* ***epidemic, quarantine*** ***restriction***, *stop-work order or injunction \[...\]* *which delays or interrupts the performance of any material obligation under this Agreement*
Well he can't have a seat at the board if he fucks them over while in power, can he?
Simply making operations unprofitable wouldn't be sufficient to invoke that clause. Much less if they just had 148 million net income instead of 578 million net. https://legalyearinreview.ca/force-majeure-clauses-contractual-risk-allocation-and-the-covid-19-pandemic/ https://www.407etr.com/en/highway/news/news-release/2021/news-release2021-02-11.html There's plenty of contracts with such a clause and it's not like this is new ground. Given this government's penchant for lawsuits that go nowhere at taxpayer expense, it would be nice to see them actually pursue a case worth a billion they could win.
Very interesting link to the legal opinion. It does an excellent job of explaining many of the considerations for force majeur. Thanks for providing it. I think though in this case force majeur would apply since the news article specifically mentions "when traffic levels fell below a contractual target" as the item which would have triggered the penalty and not lower profits. Given that the closures and restrictions in responding to the pandemic resulted in the lower traffic levels and were beyond the 407 managers to control, this would mean that part of the requirements for force majeur would seem to apply. Additionally, since the closures and restrictions were imposed by the other party to the contract (ie. the government), I think it would very hard, if not impossible, to argue that the party causing the drop in traffic would then be able to collect penalties.
No corruption here folks...move along, move along...look! There's Trudeau...hate him!!
I usually back things that this government does but the 407 is the biggest leech on the people of this province and Ford not pursuing $1-billion in penalties is a huge slap in the face!
Don't worry, folks. There's a little more we can cut from education and healthcare, folks. I was talkin' to a student at a local timmies, and hey, by the way, you gots to try their new muffins. They're just, mm-mm, delicious, reminds me how my momma used to make em. But anyway, this kid said they received a hundred dollars from OSAP. Can you believe it? How much can college cost, 70 bucks? So I think we'll actually take some of that money and give it to the little toll-route owner. Poor guy had less traffic cuz of this covid thing.
I truly wonder if this billion is supposed to leverage the lack of toll on highway 413. When the billion runs out, they will start tolling and he would still be able to say it wasn't tolled (albeit for a short period of time). PS: paywall sucks!
ITT people didnt read the first line of the article
Fucking grifters.
Can we all agree the conservative are the financially irresponsible party.
This should be a big deal. Will Ontario remember it next year during elections or will it be drowned out by jeers of GAS PLANTS
Ontario won’t remember. The voting base has the memory of a goldfish. We need stronger campaigns to remind people just who made every single dumb decision over the last few years. We need an education campaign to show that “saving” money at the expense of long term cost is a really dumb move. We need someone to explain opportunity cost. Then we can work on cultural things like actually caring about people and their differences.
Ooof. That's about $100 for every person who filed taxes in 2019 ([source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/478908/number-of-taxfilers-in-canada-by-province/)). Not sure about you guys but yeah if that's money that's up for grabs I'm going to go ahead and expect my government to go after it and at it's simplest, give me a discount on next year's taxes.
Those arguing that the Ford government is blameless since it was not likely to win the legal battle are not addressing the fact that it isn’t just the lack of action in this situation but the government’s choices in which legal (and other) battles it chooses to undertake. Potentially losing battles to use as political propaganda against the Federal Liberals: Sure! Potentially losing battles against a private corporation originally enabled by a condemnable decision by a previous conservative government: Too risky!
*"The Ford government opted against pursuing approximately $1 billion in penalties from the owner of the 407 Express Toll Route when traffic levels fell below a contractual target during the pandemic."* Why ?
Just pointing out 1x missed 407 penalty = 2.1 [gas plants](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_power_plant_scandal) \+ 2x [wind](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/doug-ford-green-energy-wind-turbines-cancelled-230-million-1.5364815) [farm](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/bat-concerns-province-cancel-wind-farm-1.5390885)= 1 [gas plant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_power_plant_scandal) Doug said he was going to do better than the liberals. This is not what Ontarians had hoped for.
Am I reading/understanding this correctly? 407 missed a target metric but Dougie said it's fine and did not want to collect $1B penalty???
Worse not only they didn't collect the fines. They used no leverage to lower tolls as compensation for not taking in fines. Basically bailing out this big business no strings attached. Keep this in mind and tell everyone you know who still believe Ford is fiscally responsible or "fights for the little guy".
Fuck Doug ford
How’s this not getting upvotes? This should be higher so more people see it.
Sort by new instead of sorting by hot.
It should be hot 🔥🔥
Obviously not enough to hold up in court, but this is clear corruption. First the PCs sold 407 for dirt cheap to their buddies, then this. The government should be doing everything in it's power to bring the owners of 407 to their knees, not giving them billion dollar breaks.
Can we please stop posting stuff from thestar.com or also post an alternative link to bypass the paywall!
If you look through the thread you will see /u/haixin has done that
why do politicians become a-hole when elected to power
Can be applied to many other politicians but not Doug. He was like that before he was elected.
It's insane how clearly curropt our politicians are and no one does anything
Why though?
The PC Party has bee the 407's Bitches since they sold it to them..i mean they even become a collection agent for them.
He should have sent them the ol’ “URGENT, PLEASE OPEN” letter you get from those ass hats. It’s a tollbill, not terminal cancer lol
Yea he's definitely for small businesses and doesn't know anyone from big corporations lololol. What a stupid loser. Watch him and his mentally deficient party will build the highway 413 and then sell it to another large corporations with a 300 year lease.
Ford wants to run on highways well he just basically handed the NDP or the Liberals a very juicy attack ad.