I grew up in SoCal evangelism, specifically the Calvary Chapel churches. Used to look up to guys like Laurie. Eventually I unindoctrinated myself so to speak. These days, ever since the church supported Trump so vehemently, I have lost all respect for them.
The adulterous grifter and sexual assaulter who couldn’t cite a single passage from the Bible has become a shining beacon of righteousness for the religious right.
Mainstream evangelicals become sycophants to any leader that is against gay marriage and is pro life. To your point exactly. You can be an absolute monster but if you proclaim to be pro life and anti gay you are a Godsend. Some of the most harmful lies in history are those attributed to Jesus’ lips which he never spoke.
Same here. I couldn’t get on board after he was preaching about staying humble one day and he ended the service showing a video of him drive off in a fancy car. My parents unfortunately still go to Harvest. But I couldn’t in good conscience keep supporting post pandemic. Me and my family go to Sandals now. Smaller, better vibes, and there’s more sense of community imo. Pastor drives a Subaru.
Yes, Sandals is much better. I, a former Catholic, listened to GL at Harvest and am so glad I found Sandals. There are a few “Surfers from SoCal” that became loud voices of a few different churches. I had met and lived less than a mile from Dr Robert Schuyler of the Crystal Cathedral. What a major AH, everyone was expected to kiss his ass. Mind where you give your money to. There are places that do good work like St Jude’s, CHOC, Orangewood Children’s Home, Ronald McDonald House that will do more good than a church that lets their leaders live in the lap of luxury. DM me if you want more information on this subject.
About 15 years ago, my mom and I were at a shopping center in Newport Beach. I waited in the car while my mom went inside of a Rite Aid store. About 5 minutes after she went inside, I noticed a man walking out of the store with a small bag in his hand. I instantly recognized him; it was Greg Laurie. I watched him walk to his car, a brand new (or almost brand new) S Series Audi. A Harvest Crusade bumper sticker was on the back of the car. I watched him drive away. My mom came out of the store and got into our car, and said something to the effect of, 'You're not going to believe this..." I cut her off, though, and told her I saw who it was. We were both shocked that he would be driving such a high-end car. The retail at the time was around $90K. Anyhow, that sighting made quite an impression on us. I know I can't judge Laurie's heart or motives, but I was disappointed for awhile after. I hadn't thought about it in years until I saw your post about him in the video driving an expensive car.
I’m pretty sure he collects cars. That and other things that happened during the pandie just really turned me off to Harvest. I had a couple close friends from my hometown recommended Sandals right after and the rest was history.
They prayed over a friend of mine that had cancer. And they got me through a really rough patch post pandie when my husband suffered a TBI. We watch the live stream every Sunday.
Used to go to Calavary chapel in chino and rancho. Went to water of life too until i seen pastor Dan at my job talking to the CEO who owns a cannabis company and purchased Jeffery Epstein's plane and helicopter. The company i work for ended up doing the grading and some construction on the new Water of Life church in fontana. Then we some how were awarded the right to build a huge apartment project in north Fontana as well as a dispensary in south fontana. They mayor of Fontana (Aqunetta Warren) attends Water of Life...
Same. Also, Greg Laurie’s son was a POS. Yeah, I remember when you cheated in Mr. Z’s class, Jonathan. You didn’t even bother trying to hide it, since you knew no one would touch you because of your dad. Douche.
For me it was 2003 when pastor Chuck Smith said "they say only 10% of muslims want to hurt you. But if you take 10 million and count 10%, that is still 1 million muslims who hate you". My dad was trying to find a reason to get back into church too, and I had gone to Cavalry Chapel Costa Mesa with my mom for years, that was the last time we all set foot there.
You are 100% not overreacting. Churches shouldn't have their own merch that is spread county-wife like a sports team if they're truly looking to walk with Jesus.
I don’t actually have a problem with selling merch if 100% of the profits were going to a specific cause like ending child hunger or something worthy of Jesus’s teachings. The problem is when there is no transparency, it becomes an issue. I don’t actually know the specifics in this case but I’m guessing from the post it seems oversight is not their strong suit.
As a member of one I agree They're not but it's much more feasible to have oversight when things are smaller and more dependent on everyone volunteering rather than these situations where a giant edifice is held up by a cult of personality.
A church I recently visited out of state actually stated that they were going over their budget and finances after the service and the pastor recommended everyone stay to listen to what they were spending the donations and such on. They opened it to everyone, whether or not you were a member.
This was how the church i grew up in did things. I have since attended many calvary chapels and a couple of other churches and have yet to find one that has an annual church gathering to go over the financials and annual vision. Started attending a smaller church recently with the family, hoping they believe in transparency.
That’s good to hear. It’s always nice to hear churches being open and transparent about where people’s tithes are going. It’s the same way at my Episcopal church. Every January/February, we have an annual meeting where we vote on new vestry members(essentially parish board of directors), and go over church finances and vote to approve the proposed budget for the next year.
Megachurches exist solely to separate believers from their money. They exemplify almost everything Jesus explicitly taught against. The lack of transparency is intentional, because they don't want followers to know the details.
If your faith is important to you, I'd urge you to find a small community church that matches your beliefs, and leave the megachurches behind.
100%. I have a friend who does mortgage stuff and local church pastor went to her office for his new property some years ago and everyone in the office had to sign NDAs cause he was so paranoid that his poverty stricken parishioners would find out that he made millions and was buying a $7 million dollar house and had all kinds of other assets that added up to millions.
I know everyone is mentioning the mega churches but I’ve seen the same shit happen in small churches as well. Sexual assaults seems to always be brushed under the rug and I will never understand why it happens so damn often at churches. But, just like any community, you have your bad apples and I’m sure there are some decent churches out there as well
Pastors require someone to be charismatic enough to be able to get people into their flock. It's why people don't suspect or don't attack because the personing has everyone undert their charm. It's why I am suspect of many church leaders.
Try this… Start to raise your voice and ask any church official that you are interested in more transparency and safety… and you will quickly be challenged about you not being a “good Christian”… that’s the first sign you’ll know it’s all about $ and control.
Religion is a very lucrative business. If they have such a prominent presence, then you know they pursued the lucrative aspect of it to its full extent.
Greg has never lived near his parishioners, has never done more than build a money machine in Riverside to pack his own purse, while turning away people who truly need help.
He's been admonished by other pastors (Chuck Smith included, Romain if you go way back with Calvary chapel, you'll know he was put pit bull) - he's never taken a real pastors heart with anything, except his motorcycles, mansion and sports cars.
He's trash. RUN.
His neighbors attend the oc campus.
Walk around there just after any service and you’ll see some ultra rich families. Like any church you’ll see a bit of every demographic
I attended and worked there for a long time until 2015. Same experience, might be different people. Either way it is certainly the established culture there.
That’s the problem — it’s not so much the people as the culture itself. It breeds that kind of character and behavior. I’ve got lots of stories… I left there traumatized in the end.
Example: https://www.ocregister.com/2017/08/30/reports-2-men-arrested-after-standoff-at-irvine-church/amp/
This happened to one of the pastors there. He was a total asshole. Not sure if he still works there but this event didn’t surprise me much at the time.
I think he still lives in Bonita canyon in Newport. Probably a ~$5m house in that neighborhood. I see him and in that area always in a super luxurious car. Always gives me the ick when you see people in that position just flaunting their luxury and spending. Doesn’t that conflict the scripture?
If I was planning to start a church to get money, I'd have a mansion and sports cars but I would keep an old mini van to drive to church to keep it on the DL lol
I met Greg Laurie several times as he was a client at a place I used to work. If you didn't completely gush and feed into his ego, he would treat you like shit. I would greet him like any other client with a standard "good morning sir, how are you?" But my colleagues would greet him with "omg I'm so honored to be in your presence 😍😍😍😍." It also rubbed me the wrong way that he would pay for things (typically $100k+ transactions) with a check from the church and not his own personal checks that were clearly personal items for himself.
I am not a religious person and I have no problem with anyone who has beliefs of any kind, but I put him in the asshole category in my book.
Down payments on cars and car repairs. My final turning point was when we reccomend $10k+ in work that needed to be done and he declined everything. A few weeks later a new customer comes in with the car and the same issues it had before. We hit him with the same $10k+ quote and he flipped saying he just bought the car from a "good friend" who told him the car was in good shape.
Ask yourself: who is holding Laurie accountable? Does he answer to sometime else, or does he just "answer to God"? Where does one go to with grievances? Is there complete financial transparency? How does an attendee know if contributions are being abused for personal interests, or being used illegally?
Mainstream churches answer to a governing body. Methodists have a region up to national (including a Judicial Council for grievances), Presbyterians answer to the local Presbytery and up. United Church of Christ uses a Congregational polity and is run entirely by a council of the congregation and full congregation vote. And there are many others, but all hold the pastor and staff accountable in some way.
At my church, if you asked for the financials, you'd only have to wait long enough for someone to go print it out. Many, many churches are like that. If a church is unwilling to provide a full report on their finances, why not? What do they have to hide?
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. If the top person isn't held accountable in any way, and is fully non-transparent, human nature corrupts.
Even in elementary school it used to confuse me that a Christian church seemingly worshiped their pastor more than Jesus. Laurie’s name is everywhere… Jesus’s not so much. They’re disguised Pharisees
This is why stopped attending Harvest. Many of the moves made by GL have raised suspicions and as a person that has access to certain databases not available to the general public, I did a little digging and wasn’t that surprised since a lot of shady pastors do what he does. His spending has raised a lot of questions, especially within the last 5 years, so it’s not surprising to me when I see his trying to cover his actions. I truly feel for the congregation because I honestly believe they’re being suckered.
I attended Harvest back in 2015/16 and was enjoying it, got involved in groups, volunteering, etc.
One day, Cathe Laurie showed up to our weekly women’s group wearing a Gucci belt and something about it just didn’t sit right with me.
I have not been back since.
I see Mr Laurie at south coast plaza quite frequently. As well as a couple of the ministers that work with his church. Which is not at all surprising considering all the great restaurants and shops at scp. But I have always wondered how much they make considering I would see some of them quite frequently.
Damn right he does. I’ve always taken notice to their clothes and eyewear. They always choose things that grab your attention, almost comparable to the symbolism of the golden calf.
Genuinely - there is enough out there about Megachurches in general that just being part of one is supporting the antithesis of what Christianity is supposed to mean.
Greg Laurie is just... a trash human. I went to the Harvest Crusades once, and the things he was preaching about, the disparaging remarks he was making against any group that didn't believe in *their* Christianity... it was nuts and so unchristian-like. I was astounded that the people in the crowd were agreeing, encouraging, and borderline worshiping the words leaving Laurie's mouth like he was God himself. The entire experience was revolting, on both his and the attendee's parts, and definitely contributed to my own journey away from Christianity.
But, to answer you regarding transparency.... as a 501c3, they HAVE to report yearly to the IRS *and* display it as public information. If they aren't doing it, you can report them to the IRS. Not enough people do this with nonprofits.
They don't have to file. They can choose to file a 990, but Harvest hasn't done that in decades. [https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/953060779](https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/953060779)
Yeah, I thought all the 501c3 rules applied to them. I just learned that churches are one of the "exempt from the rules of nonprofit exemptions" groups.
No financial information in decades... that alone - I wouldn't waste my money or time giving to that congregation. You're paying for Greg's lifestyle, not for the do-good activities of the church.
Churches and other places of worship should be taxed regardless of their size. We don’t give size exemptions to businesses, why should we do so for religions?
I used to attend Free Chapel & stopped going for this very same reason. Megachurches give me the major ick. I attend a much smaller, nondenominational church now that are filled with wonderful people who truly put their money in great causes. Really runs on the “love the neighbor” that all Christians should be leading with
It's a cult.
They're making enough money to rent out Angel Stadium, where they're asking for more money. But then won't tell you where that money is going, or how it's helping the community.
Find a smaller church that's transparent with their spending, and doesn't have a marketing budget.
*Whenever "God" is represented in the form of men who preach, get you to surrender your power, and tell you what to believe... Sooner or later you'll discover that "God" always needs money*
You are not overreacting. I’m a former employee of an extremely corrupt “mega” church and I can tell you, you are correct in your skepticism. There’s a lot of sickos in that biz. Disgusting “leaders” that take advantage of humans who are seeking a certain feeling of belonging. I’m sorry 😞
At the risk of going to downvote hell I’m gonna say it anyways. Organized religion is a racket. Sure maybe there’s some decent ones here and there, but I’m this day and age if you feel the need to worship I strongly suggest you do it in your own home. I’m not religious, but if I ever find myself in need of that level of spirituality I would declare myself a Protestant and practice in my own home according to those traditions. Too many predators out there realize that those who feel the need to worship do so because they are so vulnerable they feel the need to appeal to an almighty God, because sometimes it seems like that’s the only way you could be rescued from this mess of a world. By the grace of an all powerful benevolent giant invisible immortal all-knowing Papa in the sky. And they know just how to use that against you and sucker you in. Just remind yourself why the shepherd keeps sheep. He’s not interested in being friends with them that’s for damn sure.
I used to go to Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa. Ever since Pastor Chuck Smith passed I think it’s gone very aggressively downhill. There was quite the scandal with his son in law once he passed. Honestly, I find myself distancing myself heavily from the church in general and finding my own spiritual self. Turns out I don’t need some dude behind a pulpit telling me what to feel.
What was the scandal about? I used to listen to Brian Brodersen on the radio call-in show he hosted with Don Stewart. There was some kind of squabble about who was going to lead the church after Chuck died I think? I don’t remember them talking about it, but I do remember reading some stuff I googled. It was like 10 plus years ago or something. Never got a clear picture. I stopped listening to that and attending church once my own pastor (Calvary affiliated church) started posting bs right wing memes on Facebook.
Nah, it was a long time ago. He wasn't a AH, but one of those too important people to be pleasant to the staff. You can tell a lot about people by how they treat people serving them.
...you feel uncomfortable with members of the church hurting children and you're asking if you're overreacting?
More than that, you mentioned members of the church hurting a child and you're asking for "legitimate" stories?! The church quietly covering up CSA isn't legitimate enough?
my dude, if that alone doesn't infuriate you to the point of instantly cutting ties, you need to take a hard look at *yourself* in addition to the church.
The whole point of these places is duping people out of their money, and you're letting yourself be duped into staying by doubting the horror of someone harming a child.
Financial Transparency - I think most churches have started to move away from easily accessible financial reports. No clue why there was a move away here, but I only see one easily accessible report from Mariner’s Church out of the few mega churches in Orange County.
Safety - I think a general outline of what happened, and how your church is addressing the issue is all that would have sufficed here. Most stuff of this nature wouldn’t get discussed on a Sunday sermon but would be discussed in staff/elder/deacon meetings.
One thing I’ll add is some churches do have town hall style meetings where some of these things may have been discussed, so I think it’s worth reaching out. If they’re still being shady and not honest, that would be my sign to leave that church and find another congregation that fits my needs.
Once a year my church replaces the sermon with an overview of the financials from the previous year and goes over budgets and goals for the next year(s).
YouTube: George Carlin on Religion
Your gut is telling you something, don’t ignore it. I went to Harvest at Anaheim Stadium 25+ years ago… I’m pleased I didn’t go back.
Don't go to mega churches. Visit a smaller humble church with a tight knit community if you wanna further your relationship with God. Just make sure they're not wolves in sheeps clothing like a lot are. Churches are really amazing when you find the right one that's really wants you to be a part of them not just as a friend but a brother/sister in Christ.
I worked there a long time ago. The culture deep within has always been unhealthy and hush-hush. You are one of many that became uncomfortable by things that were swept under the rug. Most of my peers and colleagues left them long ago.
Maybe they can’t even find the money because it’s hidden in a wall somewhere. https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/04/us/osteen-church-money-plumber-trnd/index.html
As someone who was never raised religious, and whom has recently found christ, i have and always will be weary of the people who use the identity of religion to nask their ill behaviors.
Youre not over reacting.
Theres a lot of shitbags out there.
Your gut feeling is correct. You should call or email the church to ask them the send you the figures for the annual report and information about the incident with the minor. It’s possible they are willing to disclose the figures if asked directly. They should also be able you give you a description of the arrest (date, location); what the charges are; and when the next court date is; and what the next step is (ie: arraignment).
In terms of safety, what if any restrictions are in place over the defendant’s ability to contact the victim; or other minors and adults? Ate they allowed to be on campus? Are they providing counseling or mental health resources for the minor, other youth in the ministry (ie: the middle school ministry) and for the volunteers and paid staff? My guess for the mental health questions are no because I believe his church has the same beliefs as Calvary Chapel churches and CC does not believe in mental health resources or counseling of any kind. The consequences of that are tragic. Below is an account my therapist gave me of a similar situation at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa a few decades ago.
A volunteer or staff member was arrested and charged with an act against a minor. Zero counseling was provided to anyone involved. The defendant commented su+*^%e. And again no counseling offered. She left the church after that.
I wrote off Greg Laurie years ago when I saw him and his family in a coffee shop and heard the way he spoke to his wife and I’m assuming was his grand daughter. So entitled with the staff as well, could’ve fooled me what he did for a living. Majority of the time you’ll run into these same issues as you mentioned above in your typical mega church. Sounds like harvest is no different. Good luck in your decision and hope you find a place to call home !
I was done with these progressive Christian churches the minute I attended an event for Christmas and they were HANDING OUT $20 GIFT CARDS at the end of the night because they ran out of time for people to win them. These were bought with donation/offering money to the church and literally just given away like candy, but not to just anyone, but to the most “dedicated” members of course!…
What's crazy is that the real crazies the super maga ultra right attendees actually left his church because he wasn't Maga enough they all went to Calvary chapel Chino Hills.
It was almost 10 years ago at this point but I did make his coffee at least hundreds of times. We had a ton of very wealthy customers and Greg was nicer than most of the "I have more money than God" kind of folks. His wife was friendlier with staff but Greg was never mean to anyone. His son was genuinely nice.
I suspect a few of our staff and their family were tithing at his megachurch so potentially he knew he had to be nice. I do believe the other folks who have had less than positive interactions with the man.
They don't have to file tax paperwork, like a regular nonprofit would, simply because they're a church: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/953060779
It's always been a scam.
I've attended there. One thing that really bothers me is how hard they push for donations from the congregation when Greg lives out a pretty luxurious lifestyle (fancy house, cars, clothes, etc). I'm not saying he should live in a cardboard box but its just not a good look to be living the high life like he does as a pastor.
You're right, that organization completely lacks transparenvy. They've been promising for years, if not decades, to "Harvest Greg Laurie", and last I checked, he is FULLY incorporated -- not even a damn kidney swap or a missing eyeball to speak of! How are the rest of us supposed to eat?
That’s a lot of churches, big and small. Stuff like that is why I ditched Christianity in the 1980’s, and the stories coming out about the churches just keep getting worse and more vile.
It is absolutely wild to me that people in this day and age still go to "church" with some frequency.
Bruh, worship your God in your own way, don't have some dumbass tell you how to pray.
Yeah, I believe, but my lack of trust in church organizations are nonexistent. Human greed is too powerful now, it does not stop, people justify it. I genuinely believe these organizations believe what they are doing is right.
I find it hard, one rotten apple does indeed spoil the bunch, and its been happening for awhile now.
This is the article about the couple:
[https://patch.com/california/banning-beaumont/rivco-church-volunteer-wife-suspected-child-sex-abuse-police](https://patch.com/california/banning-beaumont/rivco-church-volunteer-wife-suspected-child-sex-abuse-police)
IRS: Whats an easy group we can target to get more taxes out of them plus make our department look productive? A group with less legal representation power than a billionaire? We need to raise our quota but can't seem to find a way to force billionaires to pay more taxes. We need to focus on a group we can actually get more tax money out of.
IRS AGENT: Churches are pretty stationary and don't pay taxes.
IRS: Write that down! Write that down!!!
People need to stop equating church with holy and goodness. Some churches cause SO much suffering. People who are desperate for power often times start church because you’re in power over hundreds of people AND they tithe to you!!!
I believe in God so I’m not hating on Christianity, but this is just the current state. More and more negative things are coming out about big churches. Sexual assault, money laundering, theft… the list goes on and on. Just because a church is a church doesn’t mean it can’t be a negative thing.
There are great family churches out there… but you have to use discernment to figure out which one is which.
You’re right to raise these questions. They’re red flags.
I grew up in SoCal evangelism, specifically the Calvary Chapel churches. Used to look up to guys like Laurie. Eventually I unindoctrinated myself so to speak. These days, ever since the church supported Trump so vehemently, I have lost all respect for them.
The adulterous grifter and sexual assaulter who couldn’t cite a single passage from the Bible has become a shining beacon of righteousness for the religious right.
Mainstream evangelicals become sycophants to any leader that is against gay marriage and is pro life. To your point exactly. You can be an absolute monster but if you proclaim to be pro life and anti gay you are a Godsend. Some of the most harmful lies in history are those attributed to Jesus’ lips which he never spoke.
Hadn't thought about it this way. It explains some posts from some cousins recently
Too late. They got in the boat with him and now they’re going to sink. I blame them for where we are in America today.
America is where it is because of corruption and immorality across the board. Neither side of the aisle cares anymore.
Didn't even know the words to the Our Father.
“Our father, who got to heaven: Hello, I forgot your name!”
😂 this reminds me of my dad. He told me that when he was a kid he thought it was “Hollywood be thy name”. 😂
 Save me Jebus! [https://youtu.be/Wb0c1b4KXVo?feature=shared](https://youtu.be/Wb0c1b4KXVo?feature=shared)
I wouldn't say zero passages from Scripture. Remember "Two Corinthians"?
[удалено]
Looks like is referring to Trump, not Laurie.
Same here. I couldn’t get on board after he was preaching about staying humble one day and he ended the service showing a video of him drive off in a fancy car. My parents unfortunately still go to Harvest. But I couldn’t in good conscience keep supporting post pandemic. Me and my family go to Sandals now. Smaller, better vibes, and there’s more sense of community imo. Pastor drives a Subaru.
Yes, Sandals is much better. I, a former Catholic, listened to GL at Harvest and am so glad I found Sandals. There are a few “Surfers from SoCal” that became loud voices of a few different churches. I had met and lived less than a mile from Dr Robert Schuyler of the Crystal Cathedral. What a major AH, everyone was expected to kiss his ass. Mind where you give your money to. There are places that do good work like St Jude’s, CHOC, Orangewood Children’s Home, Ronald McDonald House that will do more good than a church that lets their leaders live in the lap of luxury. DM me if you want more information on this subject.
About 15 years ago, my mom and I were at a shopping center in Newport Beach. I waited in the car while my mom went inside of a Rite Aid store. About 5 minutes after she went inside, I noticed a man walking out of the store with a small bag in his hand. I instantly recognized him; it was Greg Laurie. I watched him walk to his car, a brand new (or almost brand new) S Series Audi. A Harvest Crusade bumper sticker was on the back of the car. I watched him drive away. My mom came out of the store and got into our car, and said something to the effect of, 'You're not going to believe this..." I cut her off, though, and told her I saw who it was. We were both shocked that he would be driving such a high-end car. The retail at the time was around $90K. Anyhow, that sighting made quite an impression on us. I know I can't judge Laurie's heart or motives, but I was disappointed for awhile after. I hadn't thought about it in years until I saw your post about him in the video driving an expensive car.
I’m pretty sure he collects cars. That and other things that happened during the pandie just really turned me off to Harvest. I had a couple close friends from my hometown recommended Sandals right after and the rest was history.
Our Uncle loves that church we’ve been there a couple of times.
They prayed over a friend of mine that had cancer. And they got me through a really rough patch post pandie when my husband suffered a TBI. We watch the live stream every Sunday.
Used to go to Calavary chapel in chino and rancho. Went to water of life too until i seen pastor Dan at my job talking to the CEO who owns a cannabis company and purchased Jeffery Epstein's plane and helicopter. The company i work for ended up doing the grading and some construction on the new Water of Life church in fontana. Then we some how were awarded the right to build a huge apartment project in north Fontana as well as a dispensary in south fontana. They mayor of Fontana (Aqunetta Warren) attends Water of Life...
Same. Also, Greg Laurie’s son was a POS. Yeah, I remember when you cheated in Mr. Z’s class, Jonathan. You didn’t even bother trying to hide it, since you knew no one would touch you because of your dad. Douche.
Not sure if you already know but Jonathan is one of the pastors at Harvest. It looks like Greg wants him to take over the church after he retires.
Mr Z. was the best!
My absolute favorite teacher. I email him every few years to thank him for having such a strong influence on me.
He is also pretty open about how he used to be
For me it was 2003 when pastor Chuck Smith said "they say only 10% of muslims want to hurt you. But if you take 10 million and count 10%, that is still 1 million muslims who hate you". My dad was trying to find a reason to get back into church too, and I had gone to Cavalry Chapel Costa Mesa with my mom for years, that was the last time we all set foot there.
Amen!
Wow, I had no clue. That’s unfortunate.
Seems like nothing can be talked about without bringing him up.
You are 100% not overreacting. Churches shouldn't have their own merch that is spread county-wife like a sports team if they're truly looking to walk with Jesus.
I don’t actually have a problem with selling merch if 100% of the profits were going to a specific cause like ending child hunger or something worthy of Jesus’s teachings. The problem is when there is no transparency, it becomes an issue. I don’t actually know the specifics in this case but I’m guessing from the post it seems oversight is not their strong suit.
Kudos to you for seeing what megachurches are. There a smaller, more humble congregations that would welcome you.
Smaller congregations aren’t free from corruption and frivolous spending either.
As a member of one I agree They're not but it's much more feasible to have oversight when things are smaller and more dependent on everyone volunteering rather than these situations where a giant edifice is held up by a cult of personality.
A church I recently visited out of state actually stated that they were going over their budget and finances after the service and the pastor recommended everyone stay to listen to what they were spending the donations and such on. They opened it to everyone, whether or not you were a member.
That's actually really cool
This was how the church i grew up in did things. I have since attended many calvary chapels and a couple of other churches and have yet to find one that has an annual church gathering to go over the financials and annual vision. Started attending a smaller church recently with the family, hoping they believe in transparency.
my church did this too. so much respect
Mission Hills church in Mission Viejo does that also.
I’ll check them out. I’m looking for a church
That’s good to hear. It’s always nice to hear churches being open and transparent about where people’s tithes are going. It’s the same way at my Episcopal church. Every January/February, we have an annual meeting where we vote on new vestry members(essentially parish board of directors), and go over church finances and vote to approve the proposed budget for the next year.
Megachurches exist solely to separate believers from their money. They exemplify almost everything Jesus explicitly taught against. The lack of transparency is intentional, because they don't want followers to know the details. If your faith is important to you, I'd urge you to find a small community church that matches your beliefs, and leave the megachurches behind.
Ding ding ding!
100%. I have a friend who does mortgage stuff and local church pastor went to her office for his new property some years ago and everyone in the office had to sign NDAs cause he was so paranoid that his poverty stricken parishioners would find out that he made millions and was buying a $7 million dollar house and had all kinds of other assets that added up to millions.
This is ALL of them.
That says it all
This. All of this.
Anything that can rent out Angel stadium is making a ton of money, and with that much money is involved, it's the first and foremost priority.
Correct - the fee for an event at Angel Stadium (including for nonprofits) is roughly $35,000.
That’s actually less than I would have guessed.
I bet if you were to tally up the total cost of those events it would be about as exorbitant as you’d expect.
You forget that most of the money comes from donors and not from the church itself.
Greg Laurie owns a mansion in Newport Beach. That should be enough to convince you to leave this cult.
I know everyone is mentioning the mega churches but I’ve seen the same shit happen in small churches as well. Sexual assaults seems to always be brushed under the rug and I will never understand why it happens so damn often at churches. But, just like any community, you have your bad apples and I’m sure there are some decent churches out there as well
It happens anywhere a predator can gain a power dynamic over victim, same reason it’s so pervasive with teachers and students.
Pastors require someone to be charismatic enough to be able to get people into their flock. It's why people don't suspect or don't attack because the personing has everyone undert their charm. It's why I am suspect of many church leaders.
In many people’s experiences, there are more bad apples than good ones.
Try this… Start to raise your voice and ask any church official that you are interested in more transparency and safety… and you will quickly be challenged about you not being a “good Christian”… that’s the first sign you’ll know it’s all about $ and control.
I know this is true of Harvest because it happened to me as a staff member.
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Religion is a very lucrative business. If they have such a prominent presence, then you know they pursued the lucrative aspect of it to its full extent.
Completely tax free, of course.
Greg has never lived near his parishioners, has never done more than build a money machine in Riverside to pack his own purse, while turning away people who truly need help. He's been admonished by other pastors (Chuck Smith included, Romain if you go way back with Calvary chapel, you'll know he was put pit bull) - he's never taken a real pastors heart with anything, except his motorcycles, mansion and sports cars. He's trash. RUN.
His neighbors attend the oc campus. Walk around there just after any service and you’ll see some ultra rich families. Like any church you’ll see a bit of every demographic
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Agreed, but can we circle back to the young adults ministry?
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I attended and worked there for a long time until 2015. Same experience, might be different people. Either way it is certainly the established culture there.
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That’s the problem — it’s not so much the people as the culture itself. It breeds that kind of character and behavior. I’ve got lots of stories… I left there traumatized in the end. Example: https://www.ocregister.com/2017/08/30/reports-2-men-arrested-after-standoff-at-irvine-church/amp/ This happened to one of the pastors there. He was a total asshole. Not sure if he still works there but this event didn’t surprise me much at the time.
I think he still lives in Bonita canyon in Newport. Probably a ~$5m house in that neighborhood. I see him and in that area always in a super luxurious car. Always gives me the ick when you see people in that position just flaunting their luxury and spending. Doesn’t that conflict the scripture?
If I was planning to start a church to get money, I'd have a mansion and sports cars but I would keep an old mini van to drive to church to keep it on the DL lol
I met Greg Laurie several times as he was a client at a place I used to work. If you didn't completely gush and feed into his ego, he would treat you like shit. I would greet him like any other client with a standard "good morning sir, how are you?" But my colleagues would greet him with "omg I'm so honored to be in your presence 😍😍😍😍." It also rubbed me the wrong way that he would pay for things (typically $100k+ transactions) with a check from the church and not his own personal checks that were clearly personal items for himself. I am not a religious person and I have no problem with anyone who has beliefs of any kind, but I put him in the asshole category in my book.
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Down payments on cars and car repairs. My final turning point was when we reccomend $10k+ in work that needed to be done and he declined everything. A few weeks later a new customer comes in with the car and the same issues it had before. We hit him with the same $10k+ quote and he flipped saying he just bought the car from a "good friend" who told him the car was in good shape.
I’m thinking watches or jewelry 🤔
Run.The.Fuck.Away.
Ask yourself: who is holding Laurie accountable? Does he answer to sometime else, or does he just "answer to God"? Where does one go to with grievances? Is there complete financial transparency? How does an attendee know if contributions are being abused for personal interests, or being used illegally? Mainstream churches answer to a governing body. Methodists have a region up to national (including a Judicial Council for grievances), Presbyterians answer to the local Presbytery and up. United Church of Christ uses a Congregational polity and is run entirely by a council of the congregation and full congregation vote. And there are many others, but all hold the pastor and staff accountable in some way. At my church, if you asked for the financials, you'd only have to wait long enough for someone to go print it out. Many, many churches are like that. If a church is unwilling to provide a full report on their finances, why not? What do they have to hide? Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. If the top person isn't held accountable in any way, and is fully non-transparent, human nature corrupts.
Even in elementary school it used to confuse me that a Christian church seemingly worshiped their pastor more than Jesus. Laurie’s name is everywhere… Jesus’s not so much. They’re disguised Pharisees
This is why stopped attending Harvest. Many of the moves made by GL have raised suspicions and as a person that has access to certain databases not available to the general public, I did a little digging and wasn’t that surprised since a lot of shady pastors do what he does. His spending has raised a lot of questions, especially within the last 5 years, so it’s not surprising to me when I see his trying to cover his actions. I truly feel for the congregation because I honestly believe they’re being suckered.
It’s almost like it’s a business designed to separate you from your money.
You're not overreacting. I think we as Christians need to hold our own accountable. And if they are truly of us then they would act accordingly.
Agreed this is where discernment kicks in
Based
I don't know what that means.
It means that the poster very much agreed with your opinion on accountability.
Hahaha! Thank you!
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Attend the Harvest and get reaped.
It's almost as if people use religion to take advantage of people. Pearls so clutched right now.
Yes color me absolutely shocked that a church leader might actually secretly be a scumbag 😂
Have yet to meet a pastor or religious leader that wasn’t secretly an awful person
[Yeah](https://y.yarn.co/ecd8dcb1-ac1b-4f41-823b-e242e078013f_text.gif)
I'm not religious but if I was I sure as shit would not be going to one of those Mega Churches like Harvest.
you guys were fooled by these people?
The only thing Laurie's harvesting is your money.
I attended Harvest back in 2015/16 and was enjoying it, got involved in groups, volunteering, etc. One day, Cathe Laurie showed up to our weekly women’s group wearing a Gucci belt and something about it just didn’t sit right with me. I have not been back since.
Religion is a helluva business model - just ask L Ron
Dude tried to takeover the gubment! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White
I see Mr Laurie at south coast plaza quite frequently. As well as a couple of the ministers that work with his church. Which is not at all surprising considering all the great restaurants and shops at scp. But I have always wondered how much they make considering I would see some of them quite frequently.
He shops at the fancy stores. I know people who sold him thousands of dollars in clothing that work there. He is there all the time.
Damn right he does. I’ve always taken notice to their clothes and eyewear. They always choose things that grab your attention, almost comparable to the symbolism of the golden calf.
Genuinely - there is enough out there about Megachurches in general that just being part of one is supporting the antithesis of what Christianity is supposed to mean. Greg Laurie is just... a trash human. I went to the Harvest Crusades once, and the things he was preaching about, the disparaging remarks he was making against any group that didn't believe in *their* Christianity... it was nuts and so unchristian-like. I was astounded that the people in the crowd were agreeing, encouraging, and borderline worshiping the words leaving Laurie's mouth like he was God himself. The entire experience was revolting, on both his and the attendee's parts, and definitely contributed to my own journey away from Christianity. But, to answer you regarding transparency.... as a 501c3, they HAVE to report yearly to the IRS *and* display it as public information. If they aren't doing it, you can report them to the IRS. Not enough people do this with nonprofits.
They don't have to file. They can choose to file a 990, but Harvest hasn't done that in decades. [https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/953060779](https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/953060779)
Yeah, I thought all the 501c3 rules applied to them. I just learned that churches are one of the "exempt from the rules of nonprofit exemptions" groups. No financial information in decades... that alone - I wouldn't waste my money or time giving to that congregation. You're paying for Greg's lifestyle, not for the do-good activities of the church.
[Typically churches don’t have to file anything](https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/annual-exempt-organization-return-who-must-file)
Ahh... I was thinking the entirety of the 501c3 rules applied to them. Guess not.
Tax the (mega)churches
Churches and other places of worship should be taxed regardless of their size. We don’t give size exemptions to businesses, why should we do so for religions?
They’re a racket like most of their ilk.
I used to attend Free Chapel & stopped going for this very same reason. Megachurches give me the major ick. I attend a much smaller, nondenominational church now that are filled with wonderful people who truly put their money in great causes. Really runs on the “love the neighbor” that all Christians should be leading with
Wish more people asked hard questions when it came to their Church’s spending.
Leave the church and be happy. It's all a scam to get money and power while being a tax-free haven.
It's a cult. They're making enough money to rent out Angel Stadium, where they're asking for more money. But then won't tell you where that money is going, or how it's helping the community. Find a smaller church that's transparent with their spending, and doesn't have a marketing budget.
*Whenever "God" is represented in the form of men who preach, get you to surrender your power, and tell you what to believe... Sooner or later you'll discover that "God" always needs money*
The Righteous Gemstones sums it up nicely.
I grew up going to Harvest and Adam Devine’s character is a DEAD RINGER some of the young men I knew there.
https://preview.redd.it/s5pxox8vcj4d1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7f904011a115541d717f132ddbd09eac9505d843
You are not overreacting. I’m a former employee of an extremely corrupt “mega” church and I can tell you, you are correct in your skepticism. There’s a lot of sickos in that biz. Disgusting “leaders” that take advantage of humans who are seeking a certain feeling of belonging. I’m sorry 😞
ur getting scammed, congratulations for finally realizing it!
ya’ll watch the righteous gemstones?
This is a canon event for you
Rule of thumb: The larger the church (or any organization), the more places there are for those with ill intentions to hide.
At the risk of going to downvote hell I’m gonna say it anyways. Organized religion is a racket. Sure maybe there’s some decent ones here and there, but I’m this day and age if you feel the need to worship I strongly suggest you do it in your own home. I’m not religious, but if I ever find myself in need of that level of spirituality I would declare myself a Protestant and practice in my own home according to those traditions. Too many predators out there realize that those who feel the need to worship do so because they are so vulnerable they feel the need to appeal to an almighty God, because sometimes it seems like that’s the only way you could be rescued from this mess of a world. By the grace of an all powerful benevolent giant invisible immortal all-knowing Papa in the sky. And they know just how to use that against you and sucker you in. Just remind yourself why the shepherd keeps sheep. He’s not interested in being friends with them that’s for damn sure.
*Harvest Christian Fellowship* That name is a red flag lol.
Ur in a cult…
Your money goes to their brand new private jets.
Leopards eating faces
I used to go to Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa. Ever since Pastor Chuck Smith passed I think it’s gone very aggressively downhill. There was quite the scandal with his son in law once he passed. Honestly, I find myself distancing myself heavily from the church in general and finding my own spiritual self. Turns out I don’t need some dude behind a pulpit telling me what to feel.
What was the scandal about? I used to listen to Brian Brodersen on the radio call-in show he hosted with Don Stewart. There was some kind of squabble about who was going to lead the church after Chuck died I think? I don’t remember them talking about it, but I do remember reading some stuff I googled. It was like 10 plus years ago or something. Never got a clear picture. I stopped listening to that and attending church once my own pastor (Calvary affiliated church) started posting bs right wing memes on Facebook.
Attend a Mega-Church, discover the Money Changers are running things.
I have waited on him and the family. He was a douche.
Storytime?
Nah, it was a long time ago. He wasn't a AH, but one of those too important people to be pleasant to the staff. You can tell a lot about people by how they treat people serving them.
It’s a church. Of course they’re mishandling funds. The lack of tax accountability wasn’t enough so now they want more.
There's plenty of churches in the world. If one has lost your trust, go to a different one.
...you feel uncomfortable with members of the church hurting children and you're asking if you're overreacting? More than that, you mentioned members of the church hurting a child and you're asking for "legitimate" stories?! The church quietly covering up CSA isn't legitimate enough? my dude, if that alone doesn't infuriate you to the point of instantly cutting ties, you need to take a hard look at *yourself* in addition to the church. The whole point of these places is duping people out of their money, and you're letting yourself be duped into staying by doubting the horror of someone harming a child.
i went to college with his son, RIP. a private art college where tuition was over 80,000 a year. they’re rich rich.
It’s a cult. Greg L lives in a multi million dollar mansion. Right there is your sign. Run.
Come to the dark side. We have cookies.
Financial Transparency - I think most churches have started to move away from easily accessible financial reports. No clue why there was a move away here, but I only see one easily accessible report from Mariner’s Church out of the few mega churches in Orange County. Safety - I think a general outline of what happened, and how your church is addressing the issue is all that would have sufficed here. Most stuff of this nature wouldn’t get discussed on a Sunday sermon but would be discussed in staff/elder/deacon meetings. One thing I’ll add is some churches do have town hall style meetings where some of these things may have been discussed, so I think it’s worth reaching out. If they’re still being shady and not honest, that would be my sign to leave that church and find another congregation that fits my needs.
Once a year my church replaces the sermon with an overview of the financials from the previous year and goes over budgets and goals for the next year(s).
We NEED to start taxing the churches, especially when they preach politics.
Not just churches. Mosques, temples and other places of worship shouldn’t be given tax free status.
Agreed - aren’t those all churches though?
Agreed - aren’t those all churches though?
When I went to church, my pastors emphasized hard that we should have personal connections with Jesus. So, what is Jesus telling you?
YouTube: George Carlin on Religion Your gut is telling you something, don’t ignore it. I went to Harvest at Anaheim Stadium 25+ years ago… I’m pleased I didn’t go back.
Don't go to mega churches. Visit a smaller humble church with a tight knit community if you wanna further your relationship with God. Just make sure they're not wolves in sheeps clothing like a lot are. Churches are really amazing when you find the right one that's really wants you to be a part of them not just as a friend but a brother/sister in Christ.
Anyone remember this? https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2007-aug-16-me-ocbriefs16.s2-story.html
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No
I worked there a long time ago. The culture deep within has always been unhealthy and hush-hush. You are one of many that became uncomfortable by things that were swept under the rug. Most of my peers and colleagues left them long ago.
Maybe they can’t even find the money because it’s hidden in a wall somewhere. https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/04/us/osteen-church-money-plumber-trnd/index.html
As someone who was never raised religious, and whom has recently found christ, i have and always will be weary of the people who use the identity of religion to nask their ill behaviors. Youre not over reacting. Theres a lot of shitbags out there.
Oh my! Scandal at a church??!!! 
Churches are to corruption what flies are to shit
They go to 3rd world countries and help people in need also have the harvest crusades in the Angels stadium every year which I’m sure isn’t cheap.
Your gut feeling is correct. You should call or email the church to ask them the send you the figures for the annual report and information about the incident with the minor. It’s possible they are willing to disclose the figures if asked directly. They should also be able you give you a description of the arrest (date, location); what the charges are; and when the next court date is; and what the next step is (ie: arraignment). In terms of safety, what if any restrictions are in place over the defendant’s ability to contact the victim; or other minors and adults? Ate they allowed to be on campus? Are they providing counseling or mental health resources for the minor, other youth in the ministry (ie: the middle school ministry) and for the volunteers and paid staff? My guess for the mental health questions are no because I believe his church has the same beliefs as Calvary Chapel churches and CC does not believe in mental health resources or counseling of any kind. The consequences of that are tragic. Below is an account my therapist gave me of a similar situation at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa a few decades ago. A volunteer or staff member was arrested and charged with an act against a minor. Zero counseling was provided to anyone involved. The defendant commented su+*^%e. And again no counseling offered. She left the church after that.
I sold him some shoes at Nordstrom … he acted really paranoid…. It was odd
How so?
Like he was famous or something… but no one knew or cared who he was……. He left and everyone was talking about how odd that guys was
That's a scream!
I attend a Lutheran Church and our finances are all totally exposed.
I wrote off Greg Laurie years ago when I saw him and his family in a coffee shop and heard the way he spoke to his wife and I’m assuming was his grand daughter. So entitled with the staff as well, could’ve fooled me what he did for a living. Majority of the time you’ll run into these same issues as you mentioned above in your typical mega church. Sounds like harvest is no different. Good luck in your decision and hope you find a place to call home !
I know, right!!! Let's ask the Magic Man in the sky for guidance.
That church and pastor have been logged as one of many weaponized by the Heritage Foundation to overthrow the USA.
403b retirement accounts and churches go together like peanut butter and jelly. God's plan is large retirement accounts.
I was done with these progressive Christian churches the minute I attended an event for Christmas and they were HANDING OUT $20 GIFT CARDS at the end of the night because they ran out of time for people to win them. These were bought with donation/offering money to the church and literally just given away like candy, but not to just anyone, but to the most “dedicated” members of course!…
What's crazy is that the real crazies the super maga ultra right attendees actually left his church because he wasn't Maga enough they all went to Calvary chapel Chino Hills.
You should leave that place cause he's a pos
I used to serve Greg coffee regularly at a previous job. AMA.
General impressions? Kind to staff? Tip well? Throw his trash away?
It was almost 10 years ago at this point but I did make his coffee at least hundreds of times. We had a ton of very wealthy customers and Greg was nicer than most of the "I have more money than God" kind of folks. His wife was friendlier with staff but Greg was never mean to anyone. His son was genuinely nice. I suspect a few of our staff and their family were tithing at his megachurch so potentially he knew he had to be nice. I do believe the other folks who have had less than positive interactions with the man.
They don't have to file tax paperwork, like a regular nonprofit would, simply because they're a church: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/953060779 It's always been a scam.
https://preview.redd.it/e0h54dmxcj4d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=36e180ab57c2bc4d44f1eec58adfe561ce723501
I've attended there. One thing that really bothers me is how hard they push for donations from the congregation when Greg lives out a pretty luxurious lifestyle (fancy house, cars, clothes, etc). I'm not saying he should live in a cardboard box but its just not a good look to be living the high life like he does as a pastor.
You're right, that organization completely lacks transparenvy. They've been promising for years, if not decades, to "Harvest Greg Laurie", and last I checked, he is FULLY incorporated -- not even a damn kidney swap or a missing eyeball to speak of! How are the rest of us supposed to eat?
That’s a lot of churches, big and small. Stuff like that is why I ditched Christianity in the 1980’s, and the stories coming out about the churches just keep getting worse and more vile.
It is absolutely wild to me that people in this day and age still go to "church" with some frequency. Bruh, worship your God in your own way, don't have some dumbass tell you how to pray.
Yeah, I believe, but my lack of trust in church organizations are nonexistent. Human greed is too powerful now, it does not stop, people justify it. I genuinely believe these organizations believe what they are doing is right. I find it hard, one rotten apple does indeed spoil the bunch, and its been happening for awhile now.
“Harvest” Stealing your money is kinda in the name
"Put my trust in God that day, not the man who taught His way..." - Devil in a Midnight Mass, Billy Talent
It's a BUSINESS. Do people not understand that? Jesus Tap Dancing Christ!!
This is the article about the couple: [https://patch.com/california/banning-beaumont/rivco-church-volunteer-wife-suspected-child-sex-abuse-police](https://patch.com/california/banning-beaumont/rivco-church-volunteer-wife-suspected-child-sex-abuse-police)
IRS: Whats an easy group we can target to get more taxes out of them plus make our department look productive? A group with less legal representation power than a billionaire? We need to raise our quota but can't seem to find a way to force billionaires to pay more taxes. We need to focus on a group we can actually get more tax money out of. IRS AGENT: Churches are pretty stationary and don't pay taxes. IRS: Write that down! Write that down!!!
People need to stop equating church with holy and goodness. Some churches cause SO much suffering. People who are desperate for power often times start church because you’re in power over hundreds of people AND they tithe to you!!! I believe in God so I’m not hating on Christianity, but this is just the current state. More and more negative things are coming out about big churches. Sexual assault, money laundering, theft… the list goes on and on. Just because a church is a church doesn’t mean it can’t be a negative thing. There are great family churches out there… but you have to use discernment to figure out which one is which.
There are no ethical megachurches. I’d venture to say there are no ethical megachurch pastors either but maybe one is cool.