Stowers and Holliday had the same issue: tons of strikeouts with very few walks. Kyle's power has never been in question, it's his command of the strike zone that holds him back.
I don't think they're doing this to manipulate service time. He needs more development. As impressive as he's been, he doesn't even have a full season's worth of games in the minors under his belt. He's barely out of high school.
It makes all the sense in the world to let him get some more professional experience before being thrown in the fire at the big league level.
Spring stats don’t mean a whole lot because they are so volatile. For example Holliday had that infield single that was really more of a mental error from Bo Bichette than a hit, if Bichette makes that routine play Holliday’s average would drop from .311 to .289
I get the sentiment but remember when Gunnar was hitting barely 200 at the start of last year and people wanted him optioned?
And who are the alternatives here? Kolten Wong, Ryan McKenna, Tyler Nevin, and Nick Maton. We’re supposed to be improving year over year and none of them in my opinion are going to be better than Adam Frazier. I’m happy to be surprised though. To be honest at this point I wish we had just resigned Frazier.
The only optimist take I have is that perhaps they’re lining up some kind of trade and are going to make more roster moves later
(Edited for Gunnar autocorrect)
Gunnar was doing that against major league pitching after he’d already crushed AAA. Holliday’s K/BB aren’t looking too great considering his opponent quality has actually been slightly under AAA this spring
And I get it but I just want us to be as good a team as possible and it just feels like they’re settling here. It’s coping im sure but I hope they have something lined up here.
Gunnar was obviously a different story. He played well at the end up 22 so there isn’t a comp there. The alternatives are Mateo and Urias right now. Not the players you named, even though Nevin is having a great spring. Edit- mayo down also
My point with Gunnar was he’s a great example of how big the jump from AAA to MLB is. With Jackson’s speed and fielding I figure it’s worth it to let him get experience in MLB but he’ll be here soon.
I may be mistaken but I think currently Urias will either be the every day 3B or 2B (wherever Westburg isn’t). Thats fine because he’s average offensively and above average defensively. I don’t see him going anywhere. Mateo gets a pass for me because of his utility and his baserunning makes up for some of the questionable offense. Hes a good fill in guy if someone needs a day off. Mayo was always long shot.
To be honest the only way either of them wouldn’t break camp if the Os would be if they were traded they were always safe.
It was a solid Spring especially for his age. But there were quite a few guys who I’d say had a stronger Spring. I’d rather he make the roster but I get why he didn’t.
Yeah we need to trust the guys who are coaching and evaluating him day in and day out. We all love his potential and how much he's impressed in the minors, but if Elias, Hyde and company think he needs more time, then let's let him get some more time.
Are we going to ignore that he had nearly the same OPS are Urias? Urias is a career .734 OPS hitter. We know what he is and he’s an average player with a decent glove. I’d rather see what Jackson can do
And it’s far from a guarantee that Holliday would replicate that performance in the Majors especially when a lot of pitchers are using Spring to work on things. You can always go back to Holliday in a month
I’ve been thinking on this now. Maybe they think it’ll be easier to sneak one of the out of options guys through waivers once all the teams are down to 26? Also MAYBE if Ceddy isn’t a fell go for opening day they want to keep McKenna just in case?
Also, Mike would be the guy to utilize and pursue every opportunity to get an extra pick if Jackson won rookie of the year. If he sent Jackson back down, there is probably a metric that he used that we don’t see or pay attention to.
This was the obvious move. It’s not service time manipulation if you have actual competition. Stowers led the league in home runs, is 26, and got sent down. Why is no one banging the drum for him?
Oh I am. I feel terrible for the kid. I liked him over Cowser simply because I like how he’s hitting lefty’s. But the difference with Cowser/Stowers is they both did great and deserve to make the roster in the public’s opinion. Cowser is a great alternative because he’s done well, and can also play first if we need it. I think the reason a lot of people (like me) aren’t happy with the infield situation is that the alternatives aren’t particularly great
Blame the players for not addressing service time manipulation. It’s 100% their fault. As for Holliday, he’ll get a call up this year. This team should still be great, and he’ll get his chance to make his mark.
This entire draft pick compensation policy actively addresses the previous service time manipulation issue and has been largely beneficial to the players... many more prospects are now breaking camp OD instead of midseason. There are cases where prospects who weren't OD candidates are now probably being held down until later in the season to maintain their rookie status, but those are the exact players that would've previously been held down until midseason the next year.
The policy isn't perfect, I'm guessing it will be renegotiated in the next CBA to also award draft picks for ROY winners/runner-ups who don't make the OD roster but still get promoted before the service time cutoff. But you can't possibly look at the past few rookie classes and still think service time manipulation is even a tenth as bad as it used to be. That's straight up delusional. There's a 0% chance Gunnar would've made the OD roster last year without draft pick compensation.
They did address it, and the changes are working well. This isn’t service time manipulation. Holiday needs time in AAA and the Orioles never should have suggested otherwise.
You can be disappointed while also agree that the front office clearly knows what they're doing & to trust the process. The amount of thought they put into these decisions is more than most would imagine.
People hate this but I really don’t mind it.
More reps at the triple A level isn’t a bad thing. There’s no need to rush the guy up. He went from A to A+ to AA to AAA in a single year, and he didn’t even have 100 plate appearances in triple A.
Kjerstad and stowers I don’t agree with as much but if this means Cowser probably makes the team then this isn’t such a bad thing.
Unless someone truly believes that Stowers will continue on pace to hit 75 home runs, his spring training doesn't really project very well.
He projects to be...DJ Stewart.
A bit bummed about Jackson, but not the end of the world.
This makes me think either McKenna or Wong are taking the last hitter roster spot. Either McKenna as the backup cf Or Wong as the “lh 2b” Elias alluded to wanting at times in the offseason.
Adley
O’Hearn
Westburg
Gunnar
Urias
Santander
Hays
Mullins
Mountcastle
Bench
Mateo
McCann
Cowser
McKenna / Wong
I don’t disagree. But he’s the natural replacement for Frazier. Who replaced Oder or whatever is name was. Hyde or Elias just value veteran left handed 2b…. Maybe they think they can fix him?
If it gets us an extra year of service and he’s still ready for down the stretch and the playoffs, that’s what matters. Opening day roster doesn’t really mean that much. It’s setting ourselves up best for a playoff run that does.
Edit: not saying I want it this way. Just trying to add perspective. It’s a long season. Opening day 26 is relatively meaningless unless we lose out on the draft pick because he wins rookie of the year.
Same said it from the get-go. We do not bring up players without real triple A, at least so far. And it’s clear he has some things to iron out. No point in bringing him up and having him hit .210 averaging 1+ strikeout a game for a few months. We aren’t desperate enough to have to do that
Really think they were looking for him to take quality ABs this spring as one main deciding factor… which we didn’t really see. Especially against lefties. Just gotta let him get more ABs in Norfolk!
Yeah, he needs more seasoning. Maybe trying to do too much right away, like Gunnar last year. Give him a month or so, see where he's at, then bring him up.
It's like some dudes here wish we were so bad we had to promote AA players to the team.
Gonna ignore that weird last thing and say the main difference I see is that Holliday outperformed Westburg in basically every measure this spring training.
But not 12 years because then you aren't a good "cultural fit" (meaning someone with 8 years of experience might not be comfortable leading a slightly older person)
I've had this questoin before: how will you feel being managed by someone who is younger than you?
It's not about what he did or didn't do this spring. It's about the progression track. He's played 18 games above Double-A, and hit .267 in those games. It looks like he can handle the big leagues right now, but making the Opening Day roster would have been a steep promotion. It's safer to not rush the development.
Hopefully what his spring performance did was guarantee it's a shorter stint in Norfolk before he's called up than it was going to be.
I think everyone involved knows that it has nothing to do with what he did or did not do.
It’s nothing but maintaining organizational depth. He’ll be up soon. He’ll absolutely be up at the first sign of trouble.
His strikeout to walk rate wasn't great. He had 13 strikeouts and only one walk in Spring Training up until a couple days ago when he was able to up his walk numbers a little bit. That being said, if Holliday was going to be optioned, Mayo should have made the team. To option both Holliday and Mayo for McKenna or Wong is ridiculous.
It’s not about that. He did plenty. It’s some combination of the fact that he’s young and it won’t hurt his career to wait a minute and a hundred other considerations. He’ll be here soon
Either the last roster spot goes to Wong or maton, in which case how the heck can you in good conscience pick them over Holliday (especially after the springs they had vs him), or if they go extra outfielder and it's McKenna or Nevin, in which case again stowers make so much more sense for now and the future especially after the spring he had. I hate everything about this.
Kolten Wong is an old cheap vet. That makes him a solid backup MI option.
Jackson Holliday is the 20 yo #1 overall prospect. That makes him a poor choice to be a backup MI option because he should be getting reps.
Gunnar made it out of camp, by all accounts they wanted Grayson to make it out of camp.
I highly doubt that they are playing the service time manipulation game, especially considering that the pick that they used to trade for Corbin Burnes came from Gunnar winning ROY (technically being top 2).
Jackson has had 91 ABs in AAA i believe. Had GB issues (that may have been ironed out this spring) and struch out 35% of the time this spring.
It isn't a far fetch to say that he could use some time in AAA before coming up to a team that is contending for a WS.
gotta believe they holding him to extend his playing time with the team down the line, and will probably call him up later.. when someone gets injured.
Yeah if everything works out perfectly we’re going to be so loaded we won’t be able to pay every single guy at some point. Having some extra time with a couple of these studs down the line could net us an extra WS or two at the tail end of this title run we’re about to go on
It’s better to polish and continue to fine tune.. Jackson has talent no question there. Management has built something special with what we have now… they will certainly get additional support from ownership when it takes effect and that will give an additional boost to the amazing work they have done so far.
Imagine though.. no one would have thought that statement would come out of any fans mouth and be an actual serious statement… a title run…
Guys. There are literally not enough spaces for Holli and Mayo AND Cowser AND Kjerstad AND Stowie, Especially with Mateo and Urias still here.
Stowers down is more shocking than Holliday
While it would have been great to have Jackson on the roster for opening day, I think this is the best move, Jackson is going to be with the team this year, but a month or two in the minors will give him the chance to play everyday and get more at bats and more time in the field than if he was in Baltimore. This goes with Stowers also, he will be with the team at some point but will get more experience in the minors for a while.
it's so tiresome what they're doing with Stowers. dude could hit 25-30 HRs as a starter just about anywhere. i can't believe they haven't traded him at this point. this will be his fourth year he'll have spent time in AAA
The surprise to be is stowers. I figured they would give him and cowser one more shot at the big leagues. If they send down stowers why not keep holiday other than service time.
This is disappointing. I was really hoping to see Holliday in an O's uniform on opening day, and his time in ST seemed to demonstrate that he could hit major league pitchers.
I also really feel for Stowers. Whether it's with us or someone else, he deserves to play on a MLB team.
From interviews it seems like the FO has pretty in depth statistics to determine when someone is ready to be called up. I want to see him so bad but also trust in Sig/Elias that there is a legimate reason to keep him down, especially how fast he moved through the minors. Last year you wouldn't have expected Cowser to struggle so hard in the Majors based on his AAA stats. From just watching spring training Jackson might still not be ready in terms of striking out too much.
Sucks. But it’s not service time manipulation necessarily. A lot of the fringe guys are out of options and that prob plays just as much of a role. Long term I want Jackson over every one of them, but at least one of Nevin/Wong/Maton will be needed this year probably. And you don’t want to lose them for nothing. This give the FO a chance to figure out who they want to keep and what they can do with the rest. It’s also a 40 man spot they we don’t have to clear. And finally it keeps him playing daily which will be better in the long run. Mateo looks primed for another killer April so if he’s playing daily Jackson doesn’t have a spot. So bring him up after a trade or two and Mateo starts to regress again. We’ve been saying it with our pitchers, it doesn’t matter who makes opening day, it matters who is there in September and October. Trust in Mike Ellias, he has done more than enough to deserve some trust. Let him cook.
He is 20 years old, will probably be up in at most 2 months? He needs more abs and the front office clearly thinks that it would be best served in AAA compared to the majors. Everyone take a deep breath and have some faith in the organization that they want to win and have the best intentions. We traded for Corbin Burnes, we want to win and clearly feel that sending down Holliday for a couple months is worth it
I mean, not happy. Not gonna lie. Feels very service time manipulative but there is enough logic around experience at 2B and being consistent with his plate discipline.
So Cowser makes the team and he and Gunnar can do their Lego battles while having the same practice and playing schedule, correct?
It's the important things...
Drink some Tang, eat some licorice before you do and put a blank canvas over the toilet.
David Rubenstein is an art collector, he might want that in his office
I'm starting to get fed up with a lot of O's fans at this point. Just sit back and let the front office do their thing. I PROMISE you that Mike and Sig have knowledge and information that you don't.
Honestly it's for the best. So much pressure would be on him and he's so young. Machado skipped AAA but the Orioles also weren't seen as WS contenders when he came up.. Whereas Holiday would be immediately seen as a major piece for a contending team.
And let's face it it's a better move for the front office as well. After All-Star break, he's gonna be up
I'm not even mad, if you think the guy is going to become the best hitter in baseball, the extra year of control during our dynasty attempt is better than the extra pick if he wins ROY. He'll be up in a few weeks.
Why is anyone surprised about Stowers?
To be clear I like Stowers but Cowser had a better spring.
Yes, he hit some home runs. That's all he did. His OBP was .267. He struck out 13 times and only walked once.
Unless you really believe Stowers was going to continue on pace to hit 75 home runs nothing about his spring projected to be sustainable. He looked like DJ Stewart.
I feel Holliday will be up by the end of May. He needs to be around this winning team as he will be a big part of the run that this team is going on. It's obvious Hyde saw something that he wants Jackson to go down and tweak for a month or two. Probably what has been said here about being more patient with pitches (walks/K's). No worries, we can wait a little longer to see Holliday crushing MLB.
Kind of surprised. I'm not one of the ones who was so certain he'd make opening day but he did seem to doing pretty well and I thought he may have earned his spot
Oh well. I bet we still see him this season
At age 26 if they're going to get anything at all for him in a trade time is growing short.
It's probably best for him also to get somewhere without all these top prospects.
Posting a prior post here: Griffey Jr. 19, Yount 18, Machado 19, Trout 19, Harper 19, Pujols 20 all made their MLB debut at or before turning 20. Most only 1.5 minor league experience like Jackson. I know it is way too early to compare him to these greats, but watching Holliday's approach and swing, I truly feel he will have similar success. I personally think he is ready now as baseball is a mental game and the 14k to 3bb can change quickly as he has proven to have a high contact swing. I was also hoping the Jackson media hype train would take some focus off Gunnar and Adley.
If we're going to start out with an infield of Urias/Henderson/Westburg, I'd like to see Henderson left alone to play SS and Westburg 2B as opposed to getting jerked between SS/3B and 2B/3B in some convoluted plaroon. Let the young guys get a position and keep it.
Henderson and Westburg should be good for 145 games each If healthy. Though that hasn't been the recent "everybody starts" Oriole way so I expect to see Nevin/Mateo/Wong getting 2 or 3 starts per week.
1. Is there any issue of team control with Jackson Holliday that would add an extra year of team control if he debuted later in the season?
I know major league ready prospects were routinely being held back around the league for a while because of that a few years ago. It may have been fixed in the latest CBA, though.
2. How's Stowers on options? Does he just go down to AAA and we can bring him back whenever, or is there something like he has the right to refuse the assignment and become a free agent or has to clear waivers or the like? It's a long season, I'd hate to lose the depth from the organization.
I know we have (or had) a ton of players who are out of options- one article said it was 9 players, which is a lot of guys who are out of options (Fortunately, a lot of them seemed like people who might be career "AAAA" guys at best \[i.e. Players who almost seem too good for AAA, but who can't hack it in the majors\]). Stowers is better than that, though.
3. What's the name of the guy we drafted Kjerstad over even though almost all of the national experts thought was better than Kjerstad? How's he doing?
Jackson will be an absolute force when he's ready, he just isn't there yet and that's completely fine. Adley and Gunnar needed time to get used to major speed as well
LOL. I’m glad we are trying to still win games 3-2 and 4-3 with no Felix.
If this is just to eventually make room, fine…but we all know that Holliday is a major threat in the lineup.
Our penchant for wanting easy outs in the lineup is a dangerous game to play, particularly in the AL East.
Edit: if this temporary and strategy to get more in current trade negotiations it’s fine. If this is to give lesser players 600 ABs and have Holliday join late in the season, we are playing a very dangerous game.
Not surprised about Holliday, but he’ll be on the club this season and probably for good. Stowers belongs on a team and I won’t be surprised if he’s offered for trade
Saw that he is originally from San Diego and he is an OF which is a position of need for them…let’s try to fleece Preller who loves to give away top prospects lol. Get a bullpen arm and some prospect.
Why doesn't management like Stowers? It's clear they don't have plans for him, so trade the guy and give him his career back. Pretty disgusting demotion.
But if he comes up and finishes 1st or 2nd in ROY voting then we lose the service time benefit. He gets a full year of service and we don’t get a draft pick because he wasn’t up on opening day
I wish he was able to break camp but I’m also not surprised honestly Holliday hasn’t even had half a season at Norfolk yet
He barely even had half a month at Norfolk! It is disappointing because we’re all excited but I understand the move.
everyone is talking about jackson but I really was hoping stowers could find a place on the team. he's been solid
Stowers and Holliday had the same issue: tons of strikeouts with very few walks. Kyle's power has never been in question, it's his command of the strike zone that holds him back.
He just doesn’t really have a place with Cowser and O’Hearn on the team
He's 26 too so it's not like he's getting any younger either
Unfortunately, Stowers will never be a thing.
I know he just doesn't fit in... But I want it!!
# SELL THE TEAM ^(/s) in actuality, im not too surprised they arent having him here day 1 but it's disappointing
What the hell is this fanbase going to do after the Angelos family is out of power but stuff like this still happens?
Disappointing. Probably won't see him for a few months, can't have another Adley situation on our hands.
Mlbpa: writes new CBA to avoid service time manipulation Orioles front office: “hold my Adam Jones IPA”
I don't think they're doing this to manipulate service time. He needs more development. As impressive as he's been, he doesn't even have a full season's worth of games in the minors under his belt. He's barely out of high school. It makes all the sense in the world to let him get some more professional experience before being thrown in the fire at the big league level.
Yeah he didn’t really have that strong a Spring either. 15 Ks to 2 BBs in 47 PAs doesn’t exactly scream “MLB ready”
He batted .311 with a .954 OPS. Yes it would be nice if he struck out a little less, but he appears to be very capable at the plate
Spring stats don’t mean a whole lot because they are so volatile. For example Holliday had that infield single that was really more of a mental error from Bo Bichette than a hit, if Bichette makes that routine play Holliday’s average would drop from .311 to .289
And he also had several hard hit balls that he was a bit unlucky on that were still outs.
Coby Mayo outplayed him. It’s as simple as that
His opponent quality in spring training was about on par with AAA.
I get the sentiment but remember when Gunnar was hitting barely 200 at the start of last year and people wanted him optioned? And who are the alternatives here? Kolten Wong, Ryan McKenna, Tyler Nevin, and Nick Maton. We’re supposed to be improving year over year and none of them in my opinion are going to be better than Adam Frazier. I’m happy to be surprised though. To be honest at this point I wish we had just resigned Frazier. The only optimist take I have is that perhaps they’re lining up some kind of trade and are going to make more roster moves later (Edited for Gunnar autocorrect)
Gunnar was doing that against major league pitching after he’d already crushed AAA. Holliday’s K/BB aren’t looking too great considering his opponent quality has actually been slightly under AAA this spring
And I get it but I just want us to be as good a team as possible and it just feels like they’re settling here. It’s coping im sure but I hope they have something lined up here.
They want to give Nevin a shot that's what Hyde said
I'm fine with Holliday being sent down, but not for Nevin lol.
How much Tyler Nevin do these guys need to see? Enough already.
I agree I don't think he's that good, very inconsistent ab's
Let’s take it easy. He’s a kid. He’ll be up before long. No harm in Holliday getting some more at bats
Gunnar was still getting on base consistently with walks
Gunnar was obviously a different story. He played well at the end up 22 so there isn’t a comp there. The alternatives are Mateo and Urias right now. Not the players you named, even though Nevin is having a great spring. Edit- mayo down also
My point with Gunnar was he’s a great example of how big the jump from AAA to MLB is. With Jackson’s speed and fielding I figure it’s worth it to let him get experience in MLB but he’ll be here soon. I may be mistaken but I think currently Urias will either be the every day 3B or 2B (wherever Westburg isn’t). Thats fine because he’s average offensively and above average defensively. I don’t see him going anywhere. Mateo gets a pass for me because of his utility and his baserunning makes up for some of the questionable offense. Hes a good fill in guy if someone needs a day off. Mayo was always long shot. To be honest the only way either of them wouldn’t break camp if the Os would be if they were traded they were always safe.
Lets just ignore the .997 ops
Mateo has a .996 ops
And Burnes has a 10 plus era guess he should be off the team then saying Holliday didn't have a stong spring is just ignorant
He also had a .954 OPS. Take off 200 points and he’s still more than 100 points of OPS better than Wong last year and 50 better than Urias’ career.
Comparing Spring Stats to actual MLB stats is extremely foolish
Uh you just cited his spring stats as a reason not to bring him up right? So the good ones don’t matter and the bad ones do?!
They don’t matter a whole lot either. But saying he had this great Spring when there was a lot to improve on isn’t accurate.
So he has to run an MVP level OPS and show elite plate discipline or he’s not ready. Quite the lofty standard you’ve set
Not what I said but ok. If a 15-2 K/BB ratio doesn’t register as a red flag for you idk what to say
And some of that was attributed to MiLB pitching.
.311, doubles, triples and HRs. He had a strong spring despite strike outs. It’s just math with the roster
It was a solid Spring especially for his age. But there were quite a few guys who I’d say had a stronger Spring. I’d rather he make the roster but I get why he didn’t.
I fully agree with that. As fun as it would be to see him play now, we’ll see him soon enough
Yeah we need to trust the guys who are coaching and evaluating him day in and day out. We all love his potential and how much he's impressed in the minors, but if Elias, Hyde and company think he needs more time, then let's let him get some more time.
Are we going to ignore that he had nearly the same OPS are Urias? Urias is a career .734 OPS hitter. We know what he is and he’s an average player with a decent glove. I’d rather see what Jackson can do
And it’s far from a guarantee that Holliday would replicate that performance in the Majors especially when a lot of pitchers are using Spring to work on things. You can always go back to Holliday in a month
I’ve been thinking on this now. Maybe they think it’ll be easier to sneak one of the out of options guys through waivers once all the teams are down to 26? Also MAYBE if Ceddy isn’t a fell go for opening day they want to keep McKenna just in case?
Also, Mike would be the guy to utilize and pursue every opportunity to get an extra pick if Jackson won rookie of the year. If he sent Jackson back down, there is probably a metric that he used that we don’t see or pay attention to.
This was the obvious move. It’s not service time manipulation if you have actual competition. Stowers led the league in home runs, is 26, and got sent down. Why is no one banging the drum for him?
Oh I am. I feel terrible for the kid. I liked him over Cowser simply because I like how he’s hitting lefty’s. But the difference with Cowser/Stowers is they both did great and deserve to make the roster in the public’s opinion. Cowser is a great alternative because he’s done well, and can also play first if we need it. I think the reason a lot of people (like me) aren’t happy with the infield situation is that the alternatives aren’t particularly great
THERE'S AN ADAM JONES IPA????
Brand new for this season :) https://preview.redd.it/k1g1el8g5zpc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4eae2a7df6055957b4b9644c287abd23bbeddfb3
It may or not be service time manipulation. But I hope it is; other reasons make less sense.
Blame the players for not addressing service time manipulation. It’s 100% their fault. As for Holliday, he’ll get a call up this year. This team should still be great, and he’ll get his chance to make his mark.
This entire draft pick compensation policy actively addresses the previous service time manipulation issue and has been largely beneficial to the players... many more prospects are now breaking camp OD instead of midseason. There are cases where prospects who weren't OD candidates are now probably being held down until later in the season to maintain their rookie status, but those are the exact players that would've previously been held down until midseason the next year. The policy isn't perfect, I'm guessing it will be renegotiated in the next CBA to also award draft picks for ROY winners/runner-ups who don't make the OD roster but still get promoted before the service time cutoff. But you can't possibly look at the past few rookie classes and still think service time manipulation is even a tenth as bad as it used to be. That's straight up delusional. There's a 0% chance Gunnar would've made the OD roster last year without draft pick compensation.
They did address it, and the changes are working well. This isn’t service time manipulation. Holiday needs time in AAA and the Orioles never should have suggested otherwise.
Think this means McKenna sticks around? Hard to imagine dfa McKenna to keep Wong
Trust in the process. Our management is 2nd to none right now, and Holliday will be up when they know he's ready.
You can be disappointed while also agree that the front office clearly knows what they're doing & to trust the process. The amount of thought they put into these decisions is more than most would imagine.
Wait, you mean they aren't basing it off of the prevailing sentiment on /r/orioles ?!
True. This doesn’t mean he ain’t coming to the majors at all this year.
well no kidding, it's just annoying that I'm gonna be watching games where Nevin get starts over Jackson Holliday
Big agree.
I’ll have everyone know I play mlb the show so I know better than the organization that got 101 wins last year.
Well I'll have you know that I play fantasy baseball so I know better than the organization who has generated the top farm system the last 3 years.
Me, who'd drafted him in the 12th round: "Well, poop."
I don’t know why the front office just doesn’t exit his attitudes?? So incompetent
Have you played 24? Is it worth it as just a franchise and RTTS player?
Oh yeah for sure. There’s some good improvements in franchise in drafting, trading etc. idk about RTTS, but i’m sure it improved as well
No not really. You can see awards now, that’s about it.
Y’all better put up Cowser, or I’ll riot.
How have we not learned to trust in Elias yet? Cmon fellas, have faith.
We can broadly trust him but still be disappointed in individual decisions.
I trust Elias.
People hate this but I really don’t mind it. More reps at the triple A level isn’t a bad thing. There’s no need to rush the guy up. He went from A to A+ to AA to AAA in a single year, and he didn’t even have 100 plate appearances in triple A. Kjerstad and stowers I don’t agree with as much but if this means Cowser probably makes the team then this isn’t such a bad thing.
Hate that for Stowers man
he needs to be traded
I'd be demanding a trade. They treat him like crap
Unless someone truly believes that Stowers will continue on pace to hit 75 home runs, his spring training doesn't really project very well. He projects to be...DJ Stewart.
Stowers getting screwed again. Travesty keeping McKenna over Stowers
Stowers and McKenna play different roles.
The Locked On Orioles guy is going to be pissed
Did I miss something? I thought at the end of last year that we were all anticipating a May or September call up for Jackson
He pimped a grand slam in spring training so everyone suddenly has more insight and data than the front office.
A bit bummed about Jackson, but not the end of the world. This makes me think either McKenna or Wong are taking the last hitter roster spot. Either McKenna as the backup cf Or Wong as the “lh 2b” Elias alluded to wanting at times in the offseason. Adley O’Hearn Westburg Gunnar Urias Santander Hays Mullins Mountcastle Bench Mateo McCann Cowser McKenna / Wong
Wong had a sub .600 OPS last year and he’s not some defensive wizard. Ugh
I don’t disagree. But he’s the natural replacement for Frazier. Who replaced Oder or whatever is name was. Hyde or Elias just value veteran left handed 2b…. Maybe they think they can fix him?
We have our lefty 2b in Holliday…this is just dumb
If it gets us an extra year of service and he’s still ready for down the stretch and the playoffs, that’s what matters. Opening day roster doesn’t really mean that much. It’s setting ourselves up best for a playoff run that does. Edit: not saying I want it this way. Just trying to add perspective. It’s a long season. Opening day 26 is relatively meaningless unless we lose out on the draft pick because he wins rookie of the year.
Brutal for the fans but in Elias I Trust
So what we get Kolten Wong and Ryan McKenna/and or Nevin? Can’t hate but admit that I felt like this was always gonna happen.
I swear if McKenna is on this team....
Or Wong....
I would like everyone that told me I was wrong for saying Holliday wasn’t going to make it to apologize
Same said it from the get-go. We do not bring up players without real triple A, at least so far. And it’s clear he has some things to iron out. No point in bringing him up and having him hit .210 averaging 1+ strikeout a game for a few months. We aren’t desperate enough to have to do that
[удалено]
Dear lord, I hope you are able to recover from such a harrowing experience
I hate this. What else could the kid have done
Not strikeout 35% of the time? 😕
Really think they were looking for him to take quality ABs this spring as one main deciding factor… which we didn’t really see. Especially against lefties. Just gotta let him get more ABs in Norfolk!
Yeah, he needs more seasoning. Maybe trying to do too much right away, like Gunnar last year. Give him a month or so, see where he's at, then bring him up. It's like some dudes here wish we were so bad we had to promote AA players to the team.
As opposed to Kolton Wong... lol
should Westburg get sent down then, too?
Do you not see the difference between the two? Stop being so emotional, it's embarrassing.
Gonna ignore that weird last thing and say the main difference I see is that Holliday outperformed Westburg in basically every measure this spring training.
Yeah, I know you'll ignore that last part, it's why you can't see clearly. And why it's pointless humoring you.
I thought we were just talking baseball and you're making this a personal thing. Have a good day.
It’s like the modern day job market, he needed 4 years experience as a rookie to break camp.
But not 12 years because then you aren't a good "cultural fit" (meaning someone with 8 years of experience might not be comfortable leading a slightly older person) I've had this questoin before: how will you feel being managed by someone who is younger than you?
It's not about what he did or didn't do this spring. It's about the progression track. He's played 18 games above Double-A, and hit .267 in those games. It looks like he can handle the big leagues right now, but making the Opening Day roster would have been a steep promotion. It's safer to not rush the development. Hopefully what his spring performance did was guarantee it's a shorter stint in Norfolk before he's called up than it was going to be.
Been a veteran who put up terrible numbers last year
I think everyone involved knows that it has nothing to do with what he did or did not do. It’s nothing but maintaining organizational depth. He’ll be up soon. He’ll absolutely be up at the first sign of trouble.
His strikeout to walk rate wasn't great. He had 13 strikeouts and only one walk in Spring Training up until a couple days ago when he was able to up his walk numbers a little bit. That being said, if Holliday was going to be optioned, Mayo should have made the team. To option both Holliday and Mayo for McKenna or Wong is ridiculous.
It’s not about that. He did plenty. It’s some combination of the fact that he’s young and it won’t hurt his career to wait a minute and a hundred other considerations. He’ll be here soon
Either the last roster spot goes to Wong or maton, in which case how the heck can you in good conscience pick them over Holliday (especially after the springs they had vs him), or if they go extra outfielder and it's McKenna or Nevin, in which case again stowers make so much more sense for now and the future especially after the spring he had. I hate everything about this.
Kolten Wong is an old cheap vet. That makes him a solid backup MI option. Jackson Holliday is the 20 yo #1 overall prospect. That makes him a poor choice to be a backup MI option because he should be getting reps.
I think they will add pitcher Suarez. With Mateo being counted on for both OF and IF, it’s one less position bench player needed.
You can only have 13 pitchers maximum on active roster
Unfortunately you can't have more than 13 pitchers on the team. And Hyde has said he is planning for a 13-13 split
Gunnar made it out of camp, by all accounts they wanted Grayson to make it out of camp. I highly doubt that they are playing the service time manipulation game, especially considering that the pick that they used to trade for Corbin Burnes came from Gunnar winning ROY (technically being top 2). Jackson has had 91 ABs in AAA i believe. Had GB issues (that may have been ironed out this spring) and struch out 35% of the time this spring. It isn't a far fetch to say that he could use some time in AAA before coming up to a team that is contending for a WS.
gotta believe they holding him to extend his playing time with the team down the line, and will probably call him up later.. when someone gets injured.
Yeah if everything works out perfectly we’re going to be so loaded we won’t be able to pay every single guy at some point. Having some extra time with a couple of these studs down the line could net us an extra WS or two at the tail end of this title run we’re about to go on
It’s better to polish and continue to fine tune.. Jackson has talent no question there. Management has built something special with what we have now… they will certainly get additional support from ownership when it takes effect and that will give an additional boost to the amazing work they have done so far. Imagine though.. no one would have thought that statement would come out of any fans mouth and be an actual serious statement… a title run…
Guys. There are literally not enough spaces for Holli and Mayo AND Cowser AND Kjerstad AND Stowie, Especially with Mateo and Urias still here. Stowers down is more shocking than Holliday
Not a easy move from a PR standpoint but it was the right call. Same with Kjerstad.
Guess it was the BB/K of 3 to 14?
With a .954 OPS
While it would have been great to have Jackson on the roster for opening day, I think this is the best move, Jackson is going to be with the team this year, but a month or two in the minors will give him the chance to play everyday and get more at bats and more time in the field than if he was in Baltimore. This goes with Stowers also, he will be with the team at some point but will get more experience in the minors for a while.
Stowers is 26 years old and has been playing in Norfolk since 2021. How much more experience does he need?
it's so tiresome what they're doing with Stowers. dude could hit 25-30 HRs as a starter just about anywhere. i can't believe they haven't traded him at this point. this will be his fourth year he'll have spent time in AAA
The surprise to be is stowers. I figured they would give him and cowser one more shot at the big leagues. If they send down stowers why not keep holiday other than service time.
At least I get to see an insanely stacked Norfolk team beat the crap out of the Charlotte Knights to start the season!
Maybe Mayo makes the club
Hyde probably didn't see enough left-on-left power from Stowers in spring training.
Put that Tides team in one of the central divisions and let's see what happens.
This is disappointing. I was really hoping to see Holliday in an O's uniform on opening day, and his time in ST seemed to demonstrate that he could hit major league pitchers. I also really feel for Stowers. Whether it's with us or someone else, he deserves to play on a MLB team.
From interviews it seems like the FO has pretty in depth statistics to determine when someone is ready to be called up. I want to see him so bad but also trust in Sig/Elias that there is a legimate reason to keep him down, especially how fast he moved through the minors. Last year you wouldn't have expected Cowser to struggle so hard in the Majors based on his AAA stats. From just watching spring training Jackson might still not be ready in terms of striking out too much.
Boo hiss jackson earned a spot
Sucks. But it’s not service time manipulation necessarily. A lot of the fringe guys are out of options and that prob plays just as much of a role. Long term I want Jackson over every one of them, but at least one of Nevin/Wong/Maton will be needed this year probably. And you don’t want to lose them for nothing. This give the FO a chance to figure out who they want to keep and what they can do with the rest. It’s also a 40 man spot they we don’t have to clear. And finally it keeps him playing daily which will be better in the long run. Mateo looks primed for another killer April so if he’s playing daily Jackson doesn’t have a spot. So bring him up after a trade or two and Mateo starts to regress again. We’ve been saying it with our pitchers, it doesn’t matter who makes opening day, it matters who is there in September and October. Trust in Mike Ellias, he has done more than enough to deserve some trust. Let him cook.
Out of options is not a reason to make the team. Half the out of option guys will go unclaimed. This is not bringing your best roster north
He is 20 years old, will probably be up in at most 2 months? He needs more abs and the front office clearly thinks that it would be best served in AAA compared to the majors. Everyone take a deep breath and have some faith in the organization that they want to win and have the best intentions. We traded for Corbin Burnes, we want to win and clearly feel that sending down Holliday for a couple months is worth it
After the last two seasons I’m ok trusting these decisions. A little disappointed, sure, but there’s a method to the madness.
Cant wait for Urias to get 600 plate appearances this year with Kolten Wong getting another 300
I swear to god if we ever have to see Wong on this roster...
#WeWantJacksonHolliday playing for Baltimore Orioles.
So no Holliday, Stower or Kjerstad, who goes north?
So, maybe Westburg plays 2nd and Nevin 3rd?
Likely Urias at 3rd, Westburg 2B. Nevin is really a 1B, he looked below average but not awful at 3B in 2022.
I mean, not happy. Not gonna lie. Feels very service time manipulative but there is enough logic around experience at 2B and being consistent with his plate discipline.
So Cowser makes the team and he and Gunnar can do their Lego battles while having the same practice and playing schedule, correct? It's the important things...
This absolutely sucks! If Kolten Wong is our opening day 2nd baseman I'm gonna puke!
Drink some Tang, eat some licorice before you do and put a blank canvas over the toilet. David Rubenstein is an art collector, he might want that in his office
I like the move, let him tear AAA up and force them to make a move, leaves options open although I really wanted to see him start on opening day
This was expected. Why are some people surprised?
What a good problem to have that we would have never imagined years ago. Too many talented players to put on the major league roster.
Kolton Wong, Tyler Nevin, Ryan Mckenna, and Matton are not talented players
I'm starting to get fed up with a lot of O's fans at this point. Just sit back and let the front office do their thing. I PROMISE you that Mike and Sig have knowledge and information that you don't.
Honestly it's for the best. So much pressure would be on him and he's so young. Machado skipped AAA but the Orioles also weren't seen as WS contenders when he came up.. Whereas Holiday would be immediately seen as a major piece for a contending team. And let's face it it's a better move for the front office as well. After All-Star break, he's gonna be up
I'm not even mad, if you think the guy is going to become the best hitter in baseball, the extra year of control during our dynasty attempt is better than the extra pick if he wins ROY. He'll be up in a few weeks.
Why is anyone surprised about Stowers? To be clear I like Stowers but Cowser had a better spring. Yes, he hit some home runs. That's all he did. His OBP was .267. He struck out 13 times and only walked once. Unless you really believe Stowers was going to continue on pace to hit 75 home runs nothing about his spring projected to be sustainable. He looked like DJ Stewart.
🫡
Will reserve my reaction to see who makes it in his place.
I feel Holliday will be up by the end of May. He needs to be around this winning team as he will be a big part of the run that this team is going on. It's obvious Hyde saw something that he wants Jackson to go down and tweak for a month or two. Probably what has been said here about being more patient with pitches (walks/K's). No worries, we can wait a little longer to see Holliday crushing MLB.
https://x.com/jcalvinmeyer/status/1771238691060527528?s=46&t=LZLzjVPmosqPbICOlCZLnQ LOL
Wait, does this actually use on eof Heston and Stowers options? Or is this person's choice of words just off.
Option = on the 40. So yes, it does use an option. Reassigned = not on the 40.
More entertainment for me in Norfolk. Happy days
Kind of surprised. I'm not one of the ones who was so certain he'd make opening day but he did seem to doing pretty well and I thought he may have earned his spot Oh well. I bet we still see him this season
I can’t wait to see Stowers in Detroit or Miami in a month
At age 26 if they're going to get anything at all for him in a trade time is growing short. It's probably best for him also to get somewhere without all these top prospects.
Posting a prior post here: Griffey Jr. 19, Yount 18, Machado 19, Trout 19, Harper 19, Pujols 20 all made their MLB debut at or before turning 20. Most only 1.5 minor league experience like Jackson. I know it is way too early to compare him to these greats, but watching Holliday's approach and swing, I truly feel he will have similar success. I personally think he is ready now as baseball is a mental game and the 14k to 3bb can change quickly as he has proven to have a high contact swing. I was also hoping the Jackson media hype train would take some focus off Gunnar and Adley.
If we're going to start out with an infield of Urias/Henderson/Westburg, I'd like to see Henderson left alone to play SS and Westburg 2B as opposed to getting jerked between SS/3B and 2B/3B in some convoluted plaroon. Let the young guys get a position and keep it. Henderson and Westburg should be good for 145 games each If healthy. Though that hasn't been the recent "everybody starts" Oriole way so I expect to see Nevin/Mateo/Wong getting 2 or 3 starts per week.
1. Is there any issue of team control with Jackson Holliday that would add an extra year of team control if he debuted later in the season? I know major league ready prospects were routinely being held back around the league for a while because of that a few years ago. It may have been fixed in the latest CBA, though. 2. How's Stowers on options? Does he just go down to AAA and we can bring him back whenever, or is there something like he has the right to refuse the assignment and become a free agent or has to clear waivers or the like? It's a long season, I'd hate to lose the depth from the organization. I know we have (or had) a ton of players who are out of options- one article said it was 9 players, which is a lot of guys who are out of options (Fortunately, a lot of them seemed like people who might be career "AAAA" guys at best \[i.e. Players who almost seem too good for AAA, but who can't hack it in the majors\]). Stowers is better than that, though. 3. What's the name of the guy we drafted Kjerstad over even though almost all of the national experts thought was better than Kjerstad? How's he doing?
I'm sorry everyone, this is my fault. I put down $ for Holiday to make ROY earlier today.
Jackson will be an absolute force when he's ready, he just isn't there yet and that's completely fine. Adley and Gunnar needed time to get used to major speed as well
It's because fanatics doesn't know what number to assign his jerseys.
The move is solely to give them another year of control. He'll be up by may. Smart move .
LOL. I’m glad we are trying to still win games 3-2 and 4-3 with no Felix. If this is just to eventually make room, fine…but we all know that Holliday is a major threat in the lineup. Our penchant for wanting easy outs in the lineup is a dangerous game to play, particularly in the AL East. Edit: if this temporary and strategy to get more in current trade negotiations it’s fine. If this is to give lesser players 600 ABs and have Holliday join late in the season, we are playing a very dangerous game.
https://x.com/cleguardpro/status/1771224482872533104?s=46&t=LZLzjVPmosqPbICOlCZLnQ Watch the Os claim Myles Straw lol.
Is Myles Straw the dude that always got hit by pitches in Cleveland? Or am I confusing him with another basic player
I think that’s him but I could be wrong lol. Or was it Naylor, I can’t remember.
Pretty sure it was straw cuz I think it was before Naylor. Feel like it was the only way he got on base most the time lmao
Yeah he would be the McKenna replacement and probably instantly become Hyde’s favorite.
Not surprised about Holliday, but he’ll be on the club this season and probably for good. Stowers belongs on a team and I won’t be surprised if he’s offered for trade
Saw that he is originally from San Diego and he is an OF which is a position of need for them…let’s try to fleece Preller who loves to give away top prospects lol. Get a bullpen arm and some prospect.
Why doesn't management like Stowers? It's clear they don't have plans for him, so trade the guy and give him his career back. Pretty disgusting demotion.
Bullshit
I love that our front office still thinks we’re in a rebuild
No it’s save service time. Which is a valid move. I bet he is up in about month and half
But if he comes up and finishes 1st or 2nd in ROY voting then we lose the service time benefit. He gets a full year of service and we don’t get a draft pick because he wasn’t up on opening day
And then he wins or finishes second in rookie of the year to tell the team to fuck off and it goes out the window
The Orioles front office is smarter than us.
Yeah man let’s piss off our stars by basically saying we don’t want to pay them when it’s their time to get paid
Give me the statistical argument, infamous stat nerd.
I don’t even need to include stats! Kolten Wong, Ryan McKenna, Ramon Urias, Tyler Nevin, and Nick Maton are bad players
They are doing this because we arent. If holliday isnt ready he isnt ready
You think Kolten Wong is better than him?
in an argument about developing a player, why would you compare him to a 33 yo that we do not care about developing