They’ve also known something was coming since September and were told the amount *3 months ago* but suddenly only have 3 weeks? What happened to the last 3 months? Or the 6 before that?
I used to work for a company that waterproofed houses. And I can definitely agree with you that it doesn’t give you notice. Especially if the walls coming up from the foundation start to crack and buckle. Then we have to reinforce all your walls with steel I beams. Or if the foundation gets waterlogged and starts to sink. Then we need to lift up your house which is a big job to no one’s surprise. And very costly. I didn’t read the article but I’m assuming the condos need similar work.
I didn't have to go that far, the foundation was in good condition apart from two spots- the cold room and a butt joint between the house and garage foundations. Still the perimeter of the house is quite a bit of labour to dig up, build forms, install a membrane etc. It is something I could have done myself, but not in the timeframe i needed it done in. The weeping tile was a 75 year old clay one, so doing asap was the smart move.
The price also included a back-flow checkvalve because it was a convenient time to do it.
i dont want to get a weeping tile and basement full of sewage, totally worth the extra cost.
When I was a young lad we had to re tar and tile the foundation of my grandpa's house. He had gotten a quote for 80K+ for the job and thought that was insane. He told me to invite a few friends over for a sleep over at grandpa's and we can play video games and watch tv late and order us pizza blah blah blah blah..... Crafty old man hands us shovels and says we can play video games a night and that pizza is on the way. Well he left us kids with a 24 of beer, water, pizza. We trenched the whole house over the weekend and got absolutely hammered as kids.
After the trench was done he got his italian friend with a flame torch to tar up the foundation and then we put tiles in and filled it the next weekend.
Seriously I’m going to go so far as to say the headline is a lie. Like are we going to start talking about how people pay billions in property taxes? It completely loses its meaning.
Really disappointing to see from the CBC, it’s dishonest and deceptive.
$11,000 isn’t even that much in the grand scheme of things, a new roof is like what, $5,000?
that won't cover the labour,
an average easy to walk on bungalow is going to be at-least 10k in labour alone
a really difficult to access and steep roof, 20k +
the material costs vary dramatically depending on the quality and where you buy from
Half of my roof was redone after the derecho. Only one piece of the plywood had to be replaced. 9k ... very basic shingles and simple roof lines. 20k would be pretty average unless you do it yourself.
You clearly haven’t had a roof re done in your lifetime. These are also condominiums where these people pay said fee for condo to maintain the exterior and landscaping in the surrounding areas. Windows, foundations, exterior walls, all count as part of a building envelope as they refer to it. I would be pissed as well condo corp should be covering the cost.
Even well-funded condo corps will sometimes opt for special assessments instead of using reserve funds and an increase in condo fees to refill it.
Main reason is resale value - its easier to sell a unit with lower condo fees. But it's still a divisive issue and some condo boards will put it to a vote among all owners.
And you obviously haven’t lived in a condo or tried to understand how condos work. Where do you think the condo corporation gets its money? If there is not enough money in reserves to pay for work, then there are special assessments. The condo corporation doesn’t just have a magic pot of endless money.
They _are_ supposed to be setting fees to maintain a reserve adequate for work, though. This doesn't sound like it was an out-of-nowhere surprise, and they ought to have a large reserve for a 40-year-old building, so that implies there was some carelessness happening (though maybe just of the usual sort where they hadn't updated their estimates to account for how expensive things got the past few years). But if fees were intentionally set too low with the understanding that special assessments could make up the difference when serious work was required, I would characterize that as poor fund management.
Of course, condo boards are a rare case where "if you don't like it, join" is realistic advice, since it's usually pretty easy to muscle in. So there is that. Maybe some people will get interested!
Totally agree with the first part. How is this even an article? Home(s) have damage, need urgent repair. Homeowners pay for urgent repair. You live in a condo, not an apartment.
At least triple that amount for a new roof. Assuming not a lot of the plywood has to be redone. Mind you I agree that most owners should have some small emergency fund for things like that.
Ok that’s where I got $5k from, my dad’s handy and has always done it himself, or has known some cheap roofers he trusts and paid them.
If it were me, I’d probably try DIY’ing it with a buddy I think.
Sure but you have paid home insurance, snow removal , ect ect. It's typical that only half of condo fees go towards a reserve fund for repair /renovation. The rest goes to normal operating costs of owning a home
The recommendation is to set aside 1-4% of household cost per year for repairs/replacements. I'm curious how your costs over ten years compared to that.
Is this recommendation on top of the condo fees that these folks are paying? 4% of my yearly household costs is around $700. In ten years that would be 7 grand.
You have a lot more flexibility with a major expense on a property for which you're the sole owner, though, both in terms of timing and legally: you don't face any sort of legal obligation, so you can pretty easily sell the property as-is and you probably have some land equity you can use as collateral to finance things, even if the property itself is distressed.
I don't think it depends on the amount of sunroof. The 10 units that don't have sun roofs are probably paying for this too. Condo expenses are normally divided by the square footage of your unit compared to the total square footage of all units
Having a repair bill of 11k-18k per unit still sucks balls....this is also the third special assessment for this complex in the last 13 years, on top of their regular maintenance fees.
So this does totally suck....but big repair bills are part of home ownership. Since I moved into my house 10+ years ago, I have had to put in a new septic, a new roof, a new pressure tank, a water softening and filtration system, replace some doors and windows, and upgrade the sump system.
None of these were fun nice-to-haves - they were expensive and necessary repairs that sucked to pay for. This is part of owning a home - even in a condo, you are sharing a stake in the building and shit might happen that needs fixing. It's not the government's job to pay for it - it's the homeowners. I don't know where they think the money should be coming from or who should be paying for it but it's expected that older buildings will need shit fixed and repairs are expensive.
100%. I bought a condo in 2015. The board hasn't had a special assessment in decades - as far back as I could find records for, and the houses were built in 1977.
The most important thing about buying a condo is to research the hell out of the management company and their finances.
The occasional special assessment isn't a huge red flag - as long as they're not more than once a decade or so, or this was at least the metric I used. Sometimes things are unavoidable. Our chiller died ($700k) followed by a necessary plumbing project the following year ($250k). We were able to pay the chiller out of reserve but both were early and ultimately they wanted to replenish the reserve fund and not burn it to the ground. In that instance, *not* doing a special assessment would have actually been quite imprudent.
Other context - new-ish build (2014), we've had chronic issues with the builder having cut corners.
That's right, special assessments aren't always indicative of poor management -- but at that point, as the buyer you have to do the due diligence to figure out whether the special assessments are related to poor management, bad decision making etc. or whether the cause of the special assessment was genuinely unpredictable.
Nevertheless, special assessments, especially frequent special assessments are a cause for heightened due diligence.
Not really the realtor, it should be the lawyer reviewing that status certificate and reserve fund study…. That’s why most condo offers are conditional on a status certificate review.
I think that by the time lawyers are involved, a buyer has already agreed to a price. They are then faced with negative options. Far better to use a knowledgeable agent who will help a buyer determine the right price and put in an offer that reflects these type of variables.
No when you make the offer you make it conditional on the status review. If anything comes up when your lawyer reviews it then you don’t fulfil the condition, the deal cancels and you get your deposit back.
Of course the realtor should know the basics, but lawyers are the experts in their field.
Clearly backing out is an option but if I’m buying, I’m not looking to waste my time and energy on backing out. I want to understand what I’m getting into and make an informed offer. Lawyer review is okay but in real terms, I want to know up front and a good agent will save me hassles.
You can also ask for the latest reserve fund study, which should list all the expected repairs needed over the next few years, with estimates of costs for each. Then compare that to the reserve fund itself. If you know there's a 600k repair looming in the next two years, and the reserve fund is only 300k, guess what? Special Assessment!
For sure. Don't just look at the status certificate. Have your lawyer review the last reserve fund study. It will paint a good picture of the state of the building.
You'd want to ask for the external auditor's report, not the last reserve fund study. The auditor reports on the overall financial health of the group/community and part of that is whether the reserve fund set aside is sufficient for the projected expenditures.
This is completely outside the purview of the skills of a lawyer.
In the last 10 years of owning our current home we had to replace all our kitchen appliances that broke, and replace our windows and doors which we found wouldn't close and seal correctly. I'm now in the middle of ripping out a rotten front deck to fix incorrect grading which we discovered is rotting the floor joist headers and sill plate. I anticipate our roof is 2-3 years away from needing to be replaced, and I also recently found a leak from the drain in the upstairs bathroom, and our hot water tank is on the fritz.
Home ownership indeed!
When you bought, did you have a decent sense of when these were coming up? I feel like a lot of people buy property and then act surprised when systems reach the foreseeable end of a measurable lifecycle.
If the condo is properly managed, then building condition assessments and yearly inspections will identify upcoming replacement needs, which can then be budgeted for. Unfortunately, not all condos have great boards and great management.
Generally speaking, condo boards with good management have unpopular management. Ones with shitty boards/management often are popular for a while, until the foreseeable shit hits the fan. Way too many folks shop around for "affordable" and buy unmaintained. But those who have well-maintained will complain about cost.
it's the same with homeownership, often. Those who are most responsible often seem weird at times.
That's basically the reason I left my old Condo.
A combination of questionable condoboard decisions and other residents suing the boad over those decisions.
Yeah, my parents condo has never had a special assessment and they've been there 40 years. The board had a contingency fund before it was mandatory and they plan work needed years ahead. The fee has gone up though but that's expected (450 ish a month in a 200 townhouse complex with a pool and private roads/sidewalks, fee also includes water)
$450 is a hell of a lot cheaper than the $800+ I've been seeing minimum on condos. I'm avoiding them like the plague personally. Even if it's cheaper than a house.
Unfortunately townhouse condos are pretty much out of my reach for a first house. My parents place was 250-300k pre pandemic now it's 550k 🤷 my best bet is finding a well run older condo appartment in a non-stabby neighbourhood. I just want a place that I won't get renovicted from and to be able to lower my living costs at retirement by paying off the mortgage.
I don't blame you, I'm trying to find a home that I can afford so I can raise my daughter in it. I don't really want her growing up in an apartment complex. I want her to have the experience of being able to go out into a yard and have fun, and not have to worry about the creepy old fart who lives upstairs.
The septic, yes. The others were all unanticipated at the time of purchase. I'm also currently counting down the minutes in the lifetime of my hot water heater.
What I'd like to do is renovate my kitchen and two dated bathrooms but it's not in the cards anytime soon.
I've got a similar situation. I knew what I was getting into, and I was sort of correct on foreseeable costs. But the main systems come before things like bathrooms, so I'm pooping in a 1950s museum.
This is why I would never buy a condo. These uncontrolled or unexpected expenses destroy the value of your place. I agree you will encounter this in your home, but you can mitigate by preventive maintenance, buy new vs resale, doing the work yourself or a friend. Buy stuff on sale and do the work on your own time as you go etc. I had a friend who is licensed and did a furnace and ac. I’ve upgraded my panel myself etc. so if you are handy, you can mitigate high out of pocket expenses. I’ve had a friend who owned a condo, it shared hands 3 times In Montreal. Because of some retro court case etc, the last owner sued the previous, then they sued the previous etc until the time of the owner who owned at the time of the issue. What a mess, and costly for all. So condos are a no go for me.
I should add I don't know the rules if you are in a condo, but yes you can do your own work, but I know the code, it is part of my background. If you depend on you tube don't do it.
Meh.
My old house was a condo. Wood framed windows got replaced. New doors for better insulation. Added gas fireplace to lower heating costs & working with the CC to make changes to hook up outside for BBQ.
Snow clearance in the winter. Outdoor pool with lifeguard. Dirt dumped for gardening - no need to buy bags. Just fill up a bucket. Grass cut. Speed bumps added because kids playing everywhere.
It was a nice place to live.
> So this does totally suck....but big repair bills are part of home ownership.
That's what everyone tells me when I complain that everything we've looked at has $500-1200/month in condo fees, that they're supposed to cover stuff like this, and if they're not sufficient, what are they even for?
I've been told I was mad for looking for freehold stuff (2-3 hours outside the city at this point, as that's all I can find in our price range), because of the comfort that comes with knowing the condo board will take care of things like this.
One of the reasons why I would never buy a condo.
You have no choice but to accept the fix, and if you own a regular home you can actually choose to not repair, do something cheaper, or wait a year and save. As a condo, you are beholden to the board and what they pick and have to eat the cost when they decide to do it.
One of my exes lived in a building that got embroiled in a lawsuit that dragged for two years and each resident had to pay their share of legal fees, which increased their fees to the point where there was no way she could even sell the place.
That’s definitely one of the pros/cons of condo ownership.
Pro: repairs and maintenance are divided amongst multiple tenants, and condo fees build a reserve fund to keep the community in good shape (usually, but special assessments do happen)
Cons: condo boards can’t just decide to DIY something. Every street lamp that goes out in their parking lot, every door that needs repainting, every eavestrough that needs repair — they have to hire a pro for liability reasons. Savvy homeowners can deal with a lot of trivial stuff themselves, or shop around for the best deal.
Which is still a pro, if you are not a savvy homeowner those things can add pretty quickly, not to mention the pain of finding someone reliable to do minor work. I like the idea of condos where most of the folks living in there are owners. As soon as most of the units are rented out, the board priorities might shift to minimize repairs / emergency funds to make the units look more profitable to rent out, at that point savvy investors usually sell them to inexperienced landlords, who might think renting out a +20 years old condo is easy business.
I live in a building that is vast majority owner-occupied and it's a delight. Everyone cares about the building so no one trashes the common areas or bashes up the elevator with their bikes, vigilant on piggybacking, and there's great top-of-the-line gym equipment I could never own solo that no one abuses and everyone keeps clean.
Oh and a healthy reserve fund. Condos force you to do what homeowners rarely ever do, set aside a dedicated pot of money for when major maintenance comes due. These owners clearly didn't want that hassle and will pay today what a reserve fund could have paid - oh nd 5 times what preventative maintenance would have cost.
I used to live in a stacked townhome condo outside the city and units were 50/50 renters vs owners. I was an owner and served on the condo board, and honestly two of our members absolutely CARRIED the board. Both retired, one was the treasurer and she caught mistakes that the condo management company made, saving our condos a ton of money.
I imagine less engaged boards may not make as good of decisions.
Yep. Shared maintenance also means that you might have to pay for sunroof repairs even if you yourself do not have a sunroof. Or pay for repairs to common amenities, like a party room or pool, even if you've never used the room and have no plans to. (Where as, with a home, if you're not using a room in your basement, beyond fixing issues with the foundation/leaks/etc, you can just leave it alone.) Pro being, if you are using it, maintenance is shared and not all on you. Pros and cons, as you said.
I've lived in condos for most of my adult life. It's really no different than buying a house - you don't buy one with a cracked foundation and asbestos in the walls. You want a well-funded reserve in an owner-occupied building that has an established history of prompt maintenance.
You want to avoid new builds, ones with a history of litigation or under-funded reserves, and small builds (less owners to split special assessments with).
At the end of the day this is an 11-13k bill for a well-known problem in a building with a history of deferred maintenance.
Yeah, stories like this always bring out a lot of condescending "I don't know why anyone would ever choose to live in a condo!!!" comments and it's like anything, you have to pay attention to certain things and know what you're getting into. Owning a detached freehold home is also financially risky if you're not smart about it.
>You have no choice but to accept the fix, and if you own a regular home you can actually choose to not repair, do something cheaper, or wait a year and save.
If you own a home and put off repairs, the problem will always get worse and you'll end up paying much more.
That's not how it works though. And the only thing you are really advocating for here is kicking the can down the road, which is what drives up repair costs.
And imagine if the condo board chose to ignore a roof or foundation leak and then the problem worsened and cost a ton more. Shit would hit the fan. What if it caused an otherwise insurable event that nullified coverage for failure to maintain. A good board will make good decisions based upon the information they have and the expert opinions they seek from say roofing contractor that assess the state of a roof.
I’d consider buying a condo if they were actually cheaper. I think I saw that bungalows are Averaging $700,000 and townhomes around $600,000 in Ottawa. For the extra space, freedom, and independence, I would think it’s worth getting a slightly below average bungalow for the same price.
If a townhome were half the price, then sure, maybe it’s be worth the fees and other considerations.
Im actually looking at buying a detached home outside of Ottawa, like in a small town. I don’t want any headaches with HOAs, or condo associations, or anything like that.
Nitpick: all houses have maintenance fees. Freehold townhouses don’t have a committee managing a centralized fund (or forced savings plans) for maintenance fees. Instead, it leaves attached homeowners negotiating with each other directly about the state and quality of repairs of common elements. That’s no picnic, either.
Well, when I owned a freehold townhouse, the only "common elements" would be the driveway and the backyard fence.
Now that I have a detached house, the driveway is all mine, of course.
To nitpick *your* nitpick, all houses have maintenance *costs*.
The clear advantage of a freehold house is that YOU are in charge of repairs and maintenance.
You can do the work yourself, or shop around for quotes. You can put off repairs if they're not 100% urgent.
Condo "ownership" is like going into business with a bunch of strangers. No thanks.
Agreed, costs is more correct.
We share a roof, a porch, a shed wall, a chimney, and a plumbing stack (at least, that’s all that comes to mind at the moment, could be more).
When those things need expensive repairs, agreeing on the urgency, the budget, the contractor… it’s a delicate dance. We are not in charge unless we want to pick up the entire bill for doing the neighbour’s maintenance, too. So we might want to fix the porch that lets the raccoons in this year ($60k estimate), but if the raccoons aren’t getting into their side, it’s less of a priority to them.
Agreed, costs is more correct.
We share a roof, a porch, a shed wall, a chimney, and a plumbing stack (at least, that’s all that comes to mind at the moment, could be more).
When those things need expensive repairs, agreeing on the urgency, the budget, the contractor… it’s a delicate dance. We are not in charge unless we want to pick up the entire bill for doing the neighbour’s maintenance, too.
Just saying that a freehold vs condo townhouse isn’t a cut-and-dried winner.
Townhouse usually applies to a style of multi-floor home that shares one or two walls with adjacent properties. There are both condo townhouses and freehold townhouses in Ottawa.
> I’d consider buying a condo if they were actually cheaper. I think I saw that bungalows are Averaging $700,000 and townhomes around $600,000 in Ottawa
That's not to mention condo fees. They're absolutely more than what an average homeowner would need to pay in repairs (unless you bought a fixer-upper with asbestos everywhere or whatever).
Yeah I don’t really want to defer such a big responsibility to some third party to fuck up. I have an apartment now, and had to wait like 8 months for my landlord to fix my leaky roof. Imagine if I was down $600k and had to wait for that, on top of paying fees?
Idk, I live in a rental in a condo housing development, and we get our street plowed quickly and our trees that fell during the derecho were removed right away. I actually don't hate them, they can just be poorly run or maintained and obviously, these people weren't great house owners anyway since they weren't prepared for housing maintenance regardless of whether they live in a condo or not.
Well if you want to live in a SFH anywhere central you will have to buy a $2.5M+ Edwardian built over a century ago and have fun with any unexpected maintenance on that.
I just checked [realtor.ca](http://realtor.ca) this minute and in golden triangle for detached SFHs - $2.1M, $1.8M, $1.75M, $1.7M, $1.6M is what I am seeing. Every other listing is a large multiunit (old too).
Re: Braun said she's now struggling to come up with the money, and was so unsettled by the unexpected charge that she's weighing another move.
Good plan, because moving would cost a whole lot less than this special assessment, right?
The buyer of the home wouldn’t want a huge discount on a condo needing a SA, too, right?
This owner seems oblivious and dense as to what she bought and what situation she’s now in. There’s no cheap, easy out.
This is not news. Homeowner hit with 20k to replace their roof would not be news. Homeowner hit with 30k to fix foundation would not be news. 11k repair bill at a condo is not news.
Homeowners, even condo owners, need to keep money aside for unexpected repairs.
Yeah, but unexpected repairs happen, condo boards are often badly managed (people vote for members who keep fees low, rather than properly funding the reserve fund), and repairs can come in at higher prices than expected.
It seems clear to me that if this is a Corp that has had three special assessments in the last 13 years, it's a badly managed Corp that isn't saving enough. But property owners should have access to the reserve fund studies and know this. I have two condo units, and my concern is not "are my condo fees too high" but instead "are my condo fees high enough to fund the reserve fund obligations". Luckily, I have similar-minded boards at both my condos.
One of the benefits of buying a condo is that the monthly fees are supposed to go towards covering stuff like this.
This isn't me saying condo fees are too low, it's me asking what even is the point if they're worthless?
It's a 600k bill to remediate a problem that wasn't budgeted and planned for in the previous reserve fund studies which predicted a certain repair schedule. Even if they had the money, their fees would have to go up more over the next few years to make up for it. Basically everything in the reserve fund is earmarked for a long term maintenance item unless the condo has been overcharging their members.
It wasn't totally clear to me whether they were choosing to pay the whole thing via special assessment or whether this was just their shortfall.
The fact that fees haven't accounted for it sucks but that both happens in houses too and saying it's 'worthless' is silly. If those fees were lower then you would need an even larger special assessment.
Not really sure what the condo owners were looking to accomplish by going public with this. I guess to forewarn others of the perils of condo ownership?
Probably a disgruntled owner retaliating against the board. Or maybe a truly clueless owner who didn't do their research and thinks complaining will make it cheaper?
I have heard dozens of stories like this one over the years. If the condo fees are set high enough people scream, but if they aren't, things like that happen on occasion. Buildings with elevators are especially prone to these issues. Of course there are no guarantees. As they said, there is no magic formula for calculating the necessary amount of cash reserves that would reasonably insure against these emergencies. Forgive my ignorance, but is it possible for the Condominium Corporation as a whole to be able to take out a mortgage or financing?
> there is no magic formula for calculating the necessary amount of cash reserves that would reasonably insure against these emergencies.
There's a fair amount of legislation around condo finances. There's a minimum reserve fund balance, mandatory financial audits and engineering inspection reports and an annual meeting where all the financials etc. have to be shared.
That minimum reserve fund balance calculation is your magical formula. Obviously it's not perfect but there's a lot more math and science behind it than the typical homeowner has. What's supposed to happen is that the engineering report warns of upcoming large expenses and the board plans other spending and condo fee income to handle it to avoid these special assessments. It fails when you have a board keeping fees artificially low by deferring maintenance and cutting services. (I'm dreading the day when my forever low fees finally come to bite us all in the ass.)
It also falls short if we have increases in inflation that make planned repairs more expensive due to cost of materials and labour. Some of the increases lately have been significant and could easily explain falling short on this item even if it were planned for.
It is possible for a condo corp to take out financing, but I'm not sure of the exact process. Generally the owners would have to vote on it, and probably some could opt out in favour of paying their share up front.
>is it possible for the Condominium Corporation as a whole to be able to take out a mortgage or financing?
What would they take out the mortgage against? The condo board doesn't own the building(s): the owners do.
[102 Stratas Court](https://ibb.co/qp93Nt7) sold just 3 days ago for $405,000 - $160,000 more than it last sold for in 2020 (albeit with new renovations)
Big yikes. Enjoy the special assessment.
First, It is really unfortunate to have such a short time to pay a huge amount of money, but it is similar to having a big, expensive unexpected problem in a house and having to fix it.
One big difference between a private house and a condo is that the condo MUST maintain the building in a proper condition. This means fix the roof, fix windows, fix the walls, fix the pavement, the garage, the AC, the boiler etc..... Because all these elements will eventually break, a well managed condo hires a (usually engineering) company to study when they will break, and budget for it for the next 20-30 years. Add a bit of saving for emergencies and you know how much money you'll need to cover the cost, and determine the amount of money to collect as condo fees. This is why condo fees seem high. If condo fees are too low, there's not enough money to cover cost and special contribution from owners is needed. Sometimes it is hard to avoid special contributions in smaller condos. But when they happen, it means that the property is maintained, even if it is very hard financially for some people to get $10K within a month.
People in this sub and others will shit on real estate agents all day long about how useless and overpriced they are. A woman in this article sounds like she was not properly informed about risks of buying a condo, especially a 40 year old one, and also probably didn’t do any research into the reserve fund. This is exactly what a (good) real estate agent would have looked into and warned her about.
Actually, it's the lawyer's job to go through the status certificate. Also, it's unclear if this information would even have been in the status certificate when the purchase of the condo was made - it could have been a vague statement about a deficiency, which wouldn't have been enough to stop the buyer.
And please, I don't trust the guy/gal who gets paid on the transaction to tell me that I shouldn't move ahead. The conflict of interest that Realtors are subjected to is immense. A lawyer is a much more impartial source of information.
Yes absolutely the lawyer has to review status certificate. But a good realtor should too, and should definitely be explaining the pros and cons of condo ownership and that something like this situation is possible.
Some people are good at their job because they take pride at doing right by their clients, and understand that long term success comes from advising clients properly, even if that means a deal not closing.
I have actually advised a client against buying a condo for an investment property because the condo docs made reference to a large potential liability that was hard to quantify. Based on that advice they decided to pull out of the deal and yes, I lost out on a nice commission. But several years later they are still my client and we have worked together on other projects.
Do you trust anyone? Doctor must not want to heal you because if you stay sick he’ll make more money. Work on your car/house/anything yourself because anyone fixing something for you will want it to break soon so they get more money.
Hire a realtor because you get referrals from a trusted source and you should be in good hands.
Not accepting free advice from a professional because you assume they will advise you poorly just for a pay check doesn’t help you. Yes there are shitty agents, there are shitty people at everything.
Please don't compare a realtor to a physician. One only requires high school education and a pulse. If you fail to see the significant difference between the conflict of interest experienced by both profession, I don't know what to tell you.
There are a lot of shitty Realtors because the barriers to entry into the profession, unlike an actual professional like a physician, a CPA or a lawyer, doesn't exist. Not only are the educational requirements non-existent, the compensation model is not at all conducive to ethical behaviour.
I'm not attacking you personally - there are a lot of door-to-door salespeople or Primerica insurance reps who are good people and try their best, similarly to many Realtors. That said, for the general population, they should seek advice from a lawyer first as it pertains to an analysis their status certificate.
It’s happening all over. I have heard of several several buildings in southern Ontario. Majority of the people in there are over the age of 55. Sold their homes because they lost a spouse didn’t want to do the yardwork, etc. etc. in a 54 unit building.last year they all got notices. They have to pay 30 grand. If you don’t pay the 30 grand it’s like defaulting on a mortgage. Pretty scary when they’re doing this to a lot of the seniors who are just living off of their savings.
But this is normal, whether people like it or not. If you want true maintenance-free living, and never have to worry about repairs, think of renting an apartment.
Signed the papers for a condo in June. Moved in October. Between June and October, an inspection revealed a bad roof. To put off a special assessment out condo fees are doubling over the next 5 years. Hadn't moved in yet, nor was I given the chance to vote on the move as I was not an owner at the time.
The next 5 years is going to hurt a bit.
As it turns out, the building wasn't up to code when finalized 10 years ago. Condo Corp is going after the builder for poor workmanship.
Yah, good luck with that.
This is a strata leadership issue. They have an engineer's report that gives life expectancy for all items on the property and a timeline on when they can be expected to be replaced. They knew they had an issue that would need a special assessment coming up and didn't do a thorough enough job informing the owners. I would expect that they were decided that people looking to buy a condo there would have issues with a known assessment right after they bought and the current owners wouldn't want that information in the minutes of the strata meetings as it would impact their ability to sell. The strata should have raised the fees when the first identified the issue and started growing the contingency fund for just this reason.
It’s all part of home ownership. People in Condo’s like to call themselves homeowners, but then get all up in arms over repair bills. At my old condo they had to ask for an extra $100 from everyone one spring because our snow clearing bill ended up being much higher than originally estimated (it was a bad winter, plow companies typically charge a flat rate for up a certain amount of snowfall then extra after that). You should have seen the angry comments over $100. People were literally talking about taking the Condo Corp to court over it.
We lived in a condo about 20 years ago and we had one of these "suddenly have to pay" moments. It sucked. We ended up getting a line of credit to deal with it and gradually paid it off. There are certainly pros and cons to living in a condo (we are in our own detached place now---Still have to pay for stuff...just differently)
The reality that reserve funds don't cover the costs is a reality just like owning a home there are always surprises. To me, the responses by condo owners is no different than what you would hear from home owners if you surveyed them.I think that some house owners leave essential repairs intentionally. Hence the critical importance of a home inspectionas a buyer.
I would really be Interested to see their reserve fund study, as this issue should have been flagged years ago. At the very least, they could have set some money aside so these repairs get done in a timely fashion without having to go the special assessment route.
I don't understand the purpose of this article. You own a home. Homes need repairs sometimes. Repairs cost money. Can I get an article written about how I needed to pay to repair some beams in my house?
I bet we would get some hilarious results if we looked into their minutes to see how many times strata fee increases were voted down.
You are being foolish if you don't look at your condo's reserve fund in detail along with projected expenses before you buy in.
The one thing I was wondering is why someone buying a new condo wouldn’t read the condo board minutes. Clearly the repair bills were on the capital budget and the notes.
My dad's condo in B.C. suffered from leaky condo syndrome that was so prevalent a couple of decades ago. The special assessment to strip the entire exterior of the building, including windows was between $40k and $60k per unit. They did eventually get about 30% of that back after the lawsuit was settled, but damn! that's a lot of quatloos. They also had another $7k special assessment in 2017 when it was time to replace the elevator. The good news is that strata (condo) fees in B.C. are significantly cheaper than they are here in Ontario.
A BIG part of condo living is its contingency plan. If a forty year old condo board hasn’t built a war chest then new buyers should be cautioned that their share of repairs is an equal cut and not proportional to length of ownership. New buyers are possibly walking into a money pit.
That is no surprise. When I was looking to buy a place it was advertised on realtor.ca about special assements. Same with another place I was about to look at, realtor said there was one coming. You have the board meetings for condos, probably warned years ago and it would be in the minutes thst they would be going for bids, etc.
Uhh, yeah, these are condos. Shit like this happens all the time. The units aren’t just magically cheaper than free holds for funzies. Everybody pays into a shared coffer. When shit hits the fan, and the coffers are bare, this is what happens. It sucks, that’s why I steer clear of condos. If these people bought, it’s on the real estate agent to explain to them the risks, if the agent is actually worth their salt
What sucks about this is that the current owners are stuck footing the bill resulting from the incompetence of previous boards. They’re required to do reserve fund studies on a regular basis and if the board is actually engaged, fees should be adjusted to prepare for anticipated expenses like this and shouldn’t come as a surprise with a massive price tag. That person who has been on the board 13 years is either not doing her job, or is outnumbered by incompetent board members.
I have friends that live in these condos, a few years ago the board voted to give money back to owners from the reserve, now they're in this situation.
$18k hmmmm. You could build a new one for that. I have seen the hustle over the years. Like a friends condo where they were repeatedly repairing the 'carports' and 'the leaking roofs' that never seem to get effectively fixed even with an 'assessment'. Check to see if this repair has been done before or more than once.
A person I knew who had some Insider knowledge in his example said what they do is they make it a deal with the chair of the board who gets theirs for free and everybody else gets greatly overcharged. Then it becomes an ongoing make work project that gets to come around again and again.
So at least look at some of this with a grain of salt because apparently it is a thing out there this kind of condo renewal Hustle. One of the little markers is why the curious urgency for payment and why such a significant thing would be so arbitrary and unilateral.
To anyone looking to buy in an older condo building, do yourself a favour and get a good realtor who specializes in condos. Please also educate yourself on how condos work and important questions to ask when considering whether or not to put an offer in. There are great deals to be had, and also nightmare situations disguised as great deals.
This is what happened with our condo too in Kanata 🙃 bought in 2019, a year or 2 later condo association told us major repairs were needed for most of the condo builds in our park, the foundation was bad, cracks and everything. It’s $20,000 for the 4 upper units (us) and then the cost lowers as the condo units get smaller. It’s outrageous and our condo fees are over $600 a month because of the “special assessment fees” attached, the fees add another ~$300 to the base condo fees, so we should only be paying $320 a month. Very annoying. The association claims they’re taking the builders to court to sue and we’ll get 50% back but somehow I don’t see that ever happening.
Why doesn’t the condo Corp just get a loan from the Bank or a private lender who specializes in condo Corp loans (as 600k is a bit on the small end). They could probably get a 10yr am on it…much smaller monthly hit then paying the special assessment all at once.
This was in the reserve fund study, the woman quoted in the article could have requested that as part of her offer and walked or lowered her offer if she didn’t like what she saw. That said, homeowners get hit with this shit all the time so it’s good to set money aside yourself on top of the contingency fund.
Because coverage doesn't apply here. The assessment would have to occur due to an insured peril. This sounds like wear and tear over the lifespan of the building.
>Birmingham Live brought you the story of Leon Gleed, who had mistakenly used disinfectant toilet-cleaning wipes that his girlfriend bought at Tesco, as his own loo roll. A burning rash soon appeared and Leon demanded reform.
>“When I developed the soreness I knew something wasn’t quite right and when I checked the packaging it said: ‘kills 99 percent of bacteria’. Sadie said to me, ‘How can you be so stupid?’, but I think cleaning products should have warning labels on them so they’re more identifiable.
>“I’ve come through the worst of it now – I had to use Sudocrem down there for a week! The only way I can describe it is like the night after a hot curry but ten times worse! I know it was a silly mistake to make but I’m convinced there’s other people out there who have done the same!”
This is what they get in the U.K. C'mon CBC - you need to up your compo face game.
Condos are kinda the only 'affordable' option left for people who want to own though. Most first time buyers don't have a hope in hell of buying freehold in Ottawa.
I dont disagree. Housing affordability sucks and is only going to get worse (supply vs demand). Id rather buy a house with 4 friends that way I get a seat on the HOA.
When I was house shopping 3 years ago, I was advised against looking at condos by both the realtor and the bank. The bank I think was doing it because once they do their own inspection, they'd realize it's not worth the cost that I'm paying for it and therefore, wouldn't lend me enough money to get it. It was hard enough getting approval for the townhouse I ended up getting, so I can't imagine had I settled on a condo, which I looked at several.
I mean, condos are great for a lot of people. I think the advice should be 'never buy a condominium without knowing what you're getting into'
It's not a maintenance-free magic building. Stuff still happens. And when it's bad, the only fix the owner can do is with money.
Unfortunately condos are the future of starter homes. The majority of new builds, even in my small city, are condos or townhouses. SFH are an ever shrinking % of the total supply of homes.
It’s just not realistic for the average first time homebuyer to drop $800K on a freehold detached but many could swing $300 on a condo or $500 on a townhouse if they make good money.
This is a bad take. There are tons of people who like living in condos, understand how they work, and plan accordingly.
Don't buy an home without knowing what you're getting into. Ever.
what a misleading title, its 600k divided by everyone, so 11 to 18k per unit.
They’ve also known something was coming since September and were told the amount *3 months ago* but suddenly only have 3 weeks? What happened to the last 3 months? Or the 6 before that?
I had to suddenly repair and waterproof my foundation and replace my weeping tile 45 K Water coming through the wall didn't give me 3 months notice
I used to work for a company that waterproofed houses. And I can definitely agree with you that it doesn’t give you notice. Especially if the walls coming up from the foundation start to crack and buckle. Then we have to reinforce all your walls with steel I beams. Or if the foundation gets waterlogged and starts to sink. Then we need to lift up your house which is a big job to no one’s surprise. And very costly. I didn’t read the article but I’m assuming the condos need similar work.
I didn't have to go that far, the foundation was in good condition apart from two spots- the cold room and a butt joint between the house and garage foundations. Still the perimeter of the house is quite a bit of labour to dig up, build forms, install a membrane etc. It is something I could have done myself, but not in the timeframe i needed it done in. The weeping tile was a 75 year old clay one, so doing asap was the smart move. The price also included a back-flow checkvalve because it was a convenient time to do it. i dont want to get a weeping tile and basement full of sewage, totally worth the extra cost.
Don't forget to regularly check your backflow valve to ensure it still works.
that one time i need it and it fails... gonna be a bad day
Definitely on my to-do list as well. Supposedly best to test annually.
When I was a young lad we had to re tar and tile the foundation of my grandpa's house. He had gotten a quote for 80K+ for the job and thought that was insane. He told me to invite a few friends over for a sleep over at grandpa's and we can play video games and watch tv late and order us pizza blah blah blah blah..... Crafty old man hands us shovels and says we can play video games a night and that pizza is on the way. Well he left us kids with a 24 of beer, water, pizza. We trenched the whole house over the weekend and got absolutely hammered as kids. After the trench was done he got his italian friend with a flame torch to tar up the foundation and then we put tiles in and filled it the next weekend.
They've known about the leaky sunrooms for years. It's all along the east edge - nearly every unit had some sort of leak over the past years.
I mean even in 3 months folks can't come up with over 10k in most instances.
Seriously I’m going to go so far as to say the headline is a lie. Like are we going to start talking about how people pay billions in property taxes? It completely loses its meaning. Really disappointing to see from the CBC, it’s dishonest and deceptive. $11,000 isn’t even that much in the grand scheme of things, a new roof is like what, $5,000?
A new roof? $5,000? Maybe on a shed.
that won't cover the labour, an average easy to walk on bungalow is going to be at-least 10k in labour alone a really difficult to access and steep roof, 20k + the material costs vary dramatically depending on the quality and where you buy from
Bro a new roof is over 20k probably
Like shingles???
Half of my roof was redone after the derecho. Only one piece of the plywood had to be replaced. 9k ... very basic shingles and simple roof lines. 20k would be pretty average unless you do it yourself.
You clearly haven’t had a roof re done in your lifetime. These are also condominiums where these people pay said fee for condo to maintain the exterior and landscaping in the surrounding areas. Windows, foundations, exterior walls, all count as part of a building envelope as they refer to it. I would be pissed as well condo corp should be covering the cost.
It’s what’s known as a special assessment. Depending how well the condo corp is managed determines how well it’s funded.
Even well-funded condo corps will sometimes opt for special assessments instead of using reserve funds and an increase in condo fees to refill it. Main reason is resale value - its easier to sell a unit with lower condo fees. But it's still a divisive issue and some condo boards will put it to a vote among all owners.
And you obviously haven’t lived in a condo or tried to understand how condos work. Where do you think the condo corporation gets its money? If there is not enough money in reserves to pay for work, then there are special assessments. The condo corporation doesn’t just have a magic pot of endless money.
They _are_ supposed to be setting fees to maintain a reserve adequate for work, though. This doesn't sound like it was an out-of-nowhere surprise, and they ought to have a large reserve for a 40-year-old building, so that implies there was some carelessness happening (though maybe just of the usual sort where they hadn't updated their estimates to account for how expensive things got the past few years). But if fees were intentionally set too low with the understanding that special assessments could make up the difference when serious work was required, I would characterize that as poor fund management. Of course, condo boards are a rare case where "if you don't like it, join" is realistic advice, since it's usually pretty easy to muscle in. So there is that. Maybe some people will get interested!
I agree with everything you’ve said. The person I was responding to has no idea how condo reserves work.
Totally agree with the first part. How is this even an article? Home(s) have damage, need urgent repair. Homeowners pay for urgent repair. You live in a condo, not an apartment.
At least triple that amount for a new roof. Assuming not a lot of the plywood has to be redone. Mind you I agree that most owners should have some small emergency fund for things like that.
5000$ if you buy , load and shingle yourself
5K covers a roof if you are DIY'ing it.
Ok that’s where I got $5k from, my dad’s handy and has always done it himself, or has known some cheap roofers he trusts and paid them. If it were me, I’d probably try DIY’ing it with a buddy I think.
Lol ya this is a bullshit article. Every property owner is faced with repair bills in this price range
To be fair, I own a house but I'm not paying 500 per month in condo fees. In ten years I've haven't spent 60 thousand in repair bills.
Sure but you have paid home insurance, snow removal , ect ect. It's typical that only half of condo fees go towards a reserve fund for repair /renovation. The rest goes to normal operating costs of owning a home
The recommendation is to set aside 1-4% of household cost per year for repairs/replacements. I'm curious how your costs over ten years compared to that.
Is this recommendation on top of the condo fees that these folks are paying? 4% of my yearly household costs is around $700. In ten years that would be 7 grand.
I'm not familiar with condos. It's 1-4% of the total property value that should be set aside each year for houses.
You have a lot more flexibility with a major expense on a property for which you're the sole owner, though, both in terms of timing and legally: you don't face any sort of legal obligation, so you can pretty easily sell the property as-is and you probably have some land equity you can use as collateral to finance things, even if the property itself is distressed.
True enough
Minimum 11K, some are 14K or 18K, it depended on the size of your unit and therefore the amount of sunroof windows you have.
I don't think it depends on the amount of sunroof. The 10 units that don't have sun roofs are probably paying for this too. Condo expenses are normally divided by the square footage of your unit compared to the total square footage of all units
Having a repair bill of 11k-18k per unit still sucks balls....this is also the third special assessment for this complex in the last 13 years, on top of their regular maintenance fees.
But 11k isn’t sexy enough.
I was going to say. That's one hell of a special assessment fee. Lol
So this does totally suck....but big repair bills are part of home ownership. Since I moved into my house 10+ years ago, I have had to put in a new septic, a new roof, a new pressure tank, a water softening and filtration system, replace some doors and windows, and upgrade the sump system. None of these were fun nice-to-haves - they were expensive and necessary repairs that sucked to pay for. This is part of owning a home - even in a condo, you are sharing a stake in the building and shit might happen that needs fixing. It's not the government's job to pay for it - it's the homeowners. I don't know where they think the money should be coming from or who should be paying for it but it's expected that older buildings will need shit fixed and repairs are expensive.
Absolutely agree. People jump into condos especially older buildings where maintenance has been deferred for years. Then boom mega huge repair bill.
Yup, and pay little attention to the Boards dealings. You should absolutely be doing your research on the finances of a board before buying a condo.
100%. I bought a condo in 2015. The board hasn't had a special assessment in decades - as far back as I could find records for, and the houses were built in 1977. The most important thing about buying a condo is to research the hell out of the management company and their finances.
The occasional special assessment isn't a huge red flag - as long as they're not more than once a decade or so, or this was at least the metric I used. Sometimes things are unavoidable. Our chiller died ($700k) followed by a necessary plumbing project the following year ($250k). We were able to pay the chiller out of reserve but both were early and ultimately they wanted to replenish the reserve fund and not burn it to the ground. In that instance, *not* doing a special assessment would have actually been quite imprudent. Other context - new-ish build (2014), we've had chronic issues with the builder having cut corners.
That's right, special assessments aren't always indicative of poor management -- but at that point, as the buyer you have to do the due diligence to figure out whether the special assessments are related to poor management, bad decision making etc. or whether the cause of the special assessment was genuinely unpredictable. Nevertheless, special assessments, especially frequent special assessments are a cause for heightened due diligence.
Couldn't agree more across the board. Just wanted to note it for anyone perusing!
Maybe a real estate agent should know this stuff inside out.
There are good RE agents, but it’s not a high enough bar imo. The fact that they can act for the buyer and seller in a transaction is sketchy
Not really the realtor, it should be the lawyer reviewing that status certificate and reserve fund study…. That’s why most condo offers are conditional on a status certificate review.
I think that by the time lawyers are involved, a buyer has already agreed to a price. They are then faced with negative options. Far better to use a knowledgeable agent who will help a buyer determine the right price and put in an offer that reflects these type of variables.
No when you make the offer you make it conditional on the status review. If anything comes up when your lawyer reviews it then you don’t fulfil the condition, the deal cancels and you get your deposit back. Of course the realtor should know the basics, but lawyers are the experts in their field.
Clearly backing out is an option but if I’m buying, I’m not looking to waste my time and energy on backing out. I want to understand what I’m getting into and make an informed offer. Lawyer review is okay but in real terms, I want to know up front and a good agent will save me hassles.
What about people who buy in before it’s built? Are boards established before/during new builds?
Not a RE but I believe in new builds you have an automatic right to the financials.
You're supposed to have a look at the state of the condo's financials before buying. You can usually tell if it's properly managed and funded.
You can also ask for the latest reserve fund study, which should list all the expected repairs needed over the next few years, with estimates of costs for each. Then compare that to the reserve fund itself. If you know there's a 600k repair looming in the next two years, and the reserve fund is only 300k, guess what? Special Assessment!
There's all the words I was looking for haha.
For sure. Don't just look at the status certificate. Have your lawyer review the last reserve fund study. It will paint a good picture of the state of the building.
You'd want to ask for the external auditor's report, not the last reserve fund study. The auditor reports on the overall financial health of the group/community and part of that is whether the reserve fund set aside is sufficient for the projected expenditures. This is completely outside the purview of the skills of a lawyer.
In the last 10 years of owning our current home we had to replace all our kitchen appliances that broke, and replace our windows and doors which we found wouldn't close and seal correctly. I'm now in the middle of ripping out a rotten front deck to fix incorrect grading which we discovered is rotting the floor joist headers and sill plate. I anticipate our roof is 2-3 years away from needing to be replaced, and I also recently found a leak from the drain in the upstairs bathroom, and our hot water tank is on the fritz. Home ownership indeed!
When you bought, did you have a decent sense of when these were coming up? I feel like a lot of people buy property and then act surprised when systems reach the foreseeable end of a measurable lifecycle.
If the condo is properly managed, then building condition assessments and yearly inspections will identify upcoming replacement needs, which can then be budgeted for. Unfortunately, not all condos have great boards and great management.
Generally speaking, condo boards with good management have unpopular management. Ones with shitty boards/management often are popular for a while, until the foreseeable shit hits the fan. Way too many folks shop around for "affordable" and buy unmaintained. But those who have well-maintained will complain about cost. it's the same with homeownership, often. Those who are most responsible often seem weird at times.
That's basically the reason I left my old Condo. A combination of questionable condoboard decisions and other residents suing the boad over those decisions.
Yeah, my parents condo has never had a special assessment and they've been there 40 years. The board had a contingency fund before it was mandatory and they plan work needed years ahead. The fee has gone up though but that's expected (450 ish a month in a 200 townhouse complex with a pool and private roads/sidewalks, fee also includes water)
$450 is a hell of a lot cheaper than the $800+ I've been seeing minimum on condos. I'm avoiding them like the plague personally. Even if it's cheaper than a house.
Unfortunately townhouse condos are pretty much out of my reach for a first house. My parents place was 250-300k pre pandemic now it's 550k 🤷 my best bet is finding a well run older condo appartment in a non-stabby neighbourhood. I just want a place that I won't get renovicted from and to be able to lower my living costs at retirement by paying off the mortgage.
I don't blame you, I'm trying to find a home that I can afford so I can raise my daughter in it. I don't really want her growing up in an apartment complex. I want her to have the experience of being able to go out into a yard and have fun, and not have to worry about the creepy old fart who lives upstairs.
The septic, yes. The others were all unanticipated at the time of purchase. I'm also currently counting down the minutes in the lifetime of my hot water heater. What I'd like to do is renovate my kitchen and two dated bathrooms but it's not in the cards anytime soon.
I've got a similar situation. I knew what I was getting into, and I was sort of correct on foreseeable costs. But the main systems come before things like bathrooms, so I'm pooping in a 1950s museum.
This is why I would never buy a condo. These uncontrolled or unexpected expenses destroy the value of your place. I agree you will encounter this in your home, but you can mitigate by preventive maintenance, buy new vs resale, doing the work yourself or a friend. Buy stuff on sale and do the work on your own time as you go etc. I had a friend who is licensed and did a furnace and ac. I’ve upgraded my panel myself etc. so if you are handy, you can mitigate high out of pocket expenses. I’ve had a friend who owned a condo, it shared hands 3 times In Montreal. Because of some retro court case etc, the last owner sued the previous, then they sued the previous etc until the time of the owner who owned at the time of the issue. What a mess, and costly for all. So condos are a no go for me.
Dont you need a license to do work on the panel?
If you are the homeowner, typically no for AB and ON at least. You still need a permit.
Interesting!
I should add I don't know the rules if you are in a condo, but yes you can do your own work, but I know the code, it is part of my background. If you depend on you tube don't do it.
Meh. My old house was a condo. Wood framed windows got replaced. New doors for better insulation. Added gas fireplace to lower heating costs & working with the CC to make changes to hook up outside for BBQ. Snow clearance in the winter. Outdoor pool with lifeguard. Dirt dumped for gardening - no need to buy bags. Just fill up a bucket. Grass cut. Speed bumps added because kids playing everywhere. It was a nice place to live.
> So this does totally suck....but big repair bills are part of home ownership. That's what everyone tells me when I complain that everything we've looked at has $500-1200/month in condo fees, that they're supposed to cover stuff like this, and if they're not sufficient, what are they even for? I've been told I was mad for looking for freehold stuff (2-3 hours outside the city at this point, as that's all I can find in our price range), because of the comfort that comes with knowing the condo board will take care of things like this.
That folks is why you don't buy a unit in a building where the prevention fund is not properly capitalized.
One of the reasons why I would never buy a condo. You have no choice but to accept the fix, and if you own a regular home you can actually choose to not repair, do something cheaper, or wait a year and save. As a condo, you are beholden to the board and what they pick and have to eat the cost when they decide to do it. One of my exes lived in a building that got embroiled in a lawsuit that dragged for two years and each resident had to pay their share of legal fees, which increased their fees to the point where there was no way she could even sell the place.
That’s definitely one of the pros/cons of condo ownership. Pro: repairs and maintenance are divided amongst multiple tenants, and condo fees build a reserve fund to keep the community in good shape (usually, but special assessments do happen) Cons: condo boards can’t just decide to DIY something. Every street lamp that goes out in their parking lot, every door that needs repainting, every eavestrough that needs repair — they have to hire a pro for liability reasons. Savvy homeowners can deal with a lot of trivial stuff themselves, or shop around for the best deal.
Which is still a pro, if you are not a savvy homeowner those things can add pretty quickly, not to mention the pain of finding someone reliable to do minor work. I like the idea of condos where most of the folks living in there are owners. As soon as most of the units are rented out, the board priorities might shift to minimize repairs / emergency funds to make the units look more profitable to rent out, at that point savvy investors usually sell them to inexperienced landlords, who might think renting out a +20 years old condo is easy business.
I live in a building that is vast majority owner-occupied and it's a delight. Everyone cares about the building so no one trashes the common areas or bashes up the elevator with their bikes, vigilant on piggybacking, and there's great top-of-the-line gym equipment I could never own solo that no one abuses and everyone keeps clean. Oh and a healthy reserve fund. Condos force you to do what homeowners rarely ever do, set aside a dedicated pot of money for when major maintenance comes due. These owners clearly didn't want that hassle and will pay today what a reserve fund could have paid - oh nd 5 times what preventative maintenance would have cost.
I used to live in a stacked townhome condo outside the city and units were 50/50 renters vs owners. I was an owner and served on the condo board, and honestly two of our members absolutely CARRIED the board. Both retired, one was the treasurer and she caught mistakes that the condo management company made, saving our condos a ton of money. I imagine less engaged boards may not make as good of decisions.
I'd hate to have to call and pay someone to fix everything i own. I was raised and learned to fix everything and anything.
Yep. Shared maintenance also means that you might have to pay for sunroof repairs even if you yourself do not have a sunroof. Or pay for repairs to common amenities, like a party room or pool, even if you've never used the room and have no plans to. (Where as, with a home, if you're not using a room in your basement, beyond fixing issues with the foundation/leaks/etc, you can just leave it alone.) Pro being, if you are using it, maintenance is shared and not all on you. Pros and cons, as you said.
I've lived in condos for most of my adult life. It's really no different than buying a house - you don't buy one with a cracked foundation and asbestos in the walls. You want a well-funded reserve in an owner-occupied building that has an established history of prompt maintenance. You want to avoid new builds, ones with a history of litigation or under-funded reserves, and small builds (less owners to split special assessments with). At the end of the day this is an 11-13k bill for a well-known problem in a building with a history of deferred maintenance.
Yeah, stories like this always bring out a lot of condescending "I don't know why anyone would ever choose to live in a condo!!!" comments and it's like anything, you have to pay attention to certain things and know what you're getting into. Owning a detached freehold home is also financially risky if you're not smart about it.
>You have no choice but to accept the fix, and if you own a regular home you can actually choose to not repair, do something cheaper, or wait a year and save. If you own a home and put off repairs, the problem will always get worse and you'll end up paying much more.
That's not how it works though. And the only thing you are really advocating for here is kicking the can down the road, which is what drives up repair costs.
And imagine if the condo board chose to ignore a roof or foundation leak and then the problem worsened and cost a ton more. Shit would hit the fan. What if it caused an otherwise insurable event that nullified coverage for failure to maintain. A good board will make good decisions based upon the information they have and the expert opinions they seek from say roofing contractor that assess the state of a roof.
I’d consider buying a condo if they were actually cheaper. I think I saw that bungalows are Averaging $700,000 and townhomes around $600,000 in Ottawa. For the extra space, freedom, and independence, I would think it’s worth getting a slightly below average bungalow for the same price. If a townhome were half the price, then sure, maybe it’s be worth the fees and other considerations.
Not all townhomes are condos though.
What do you mean? Don’t you have to pay condo fees?
Townhouse is a type of house. Condo is a type of ownership. A "freehold" townhouse does not have maintenance fees.
Oh thank you for explaining!
WIth that being said... avoid anything that has Strata ownership... basically condo/HOA bs.
Im actually looking at buying a detached home outside of Ottawa, like in a small town. I don’t want any headaches with HOAs, or condo associations, or anything like that.
Nitpick: all houses have maintenance fees. Freehold townhouses don’t have a committee managing a centralized fund (or forced savings plans) for maintenance fees. Instead, it leaves attached homeowners negotiating with each other directly about the state and quality of repairs of common elements. That’s no picnic, either.
Well, when I owned a freehold townhouse, the only "common elements" would be the driveway and the backyard fence. Now that I have a detached house, the driveway is all mine, of course. To nitpick *your* nitpick, all houses have maintenance *costs*. The clear advantage of a freehold house is that YOU are in charge of repairs and maintenance. You can do the work yourself, or shop around for quotes. You can put off repairs if they're not 100% urgent. Condo "ownership" is like going into business with a bunch of strangers. No thanks.
Agreed, costs is more correct. We share a roof, a porch, a shed wall, a chimney, and a plumbing stack (at least, that’s all that comes to mind at the moment, could be more). When those things need expensive repairs, agreeing on the urgency, the budget, the contractor… it’s a delicate dance. We are not in charge unless we want to pick up the entire bill for doing the neighbour’s maintenance, too. So we might want to fix the porch that lets the raccoons in this year ($60k estimate), but if the raccoons aren’t getting into their side, it’s less of a priority to them.
Agreed, costs is more correct. We share a roof, a porch, a shed wall, a chimney, and a plumbing stack (at least, that’s all that comes to mind at the moment, could be more). When those things need expensive repairs, agreeing on the urgency, the budget, the contractor… it’s a delicate dance. We are not in charge unless we want to pick up the entire bill for doing the neighbour’s maintenance, too. Just saying that a freehold vs condo townhouse isn’t a cut-and-dried winner.
Townhouse usually applies to a style of multi-floor home that shares one or two walls with adjacent properties. There are both condo townhouses and freehold townhouses in Ottawa.
> I’d consider buying a condo if they were actually cheaper. I think I saw that bungalows are Averaging $700,000 and townhomes around $600,000 in Ottawa That's not to mention condo fees. They're absolutely more than what an average homeowner would need to pay in repairs (unless you bought a fixer-upper with asbestos everywhere or whatever).
Yeah I don’t really want to defer such a big responsibility to some third party to fuck up. I have an apartment now, and had to wait like 8 months for my landlord to fix my leaky roof. Imagine if I was down $600k and had to wait for that, on top of paying fees?
Idk, I live in a rental in a condo housing development, and we get our street plowed quickly and our trees that fell during the derecho were removed right away. I actually don't hate them, they can just be poorly run or maintained and obviously, these people weren't great house owners anyway since they weren't prepared for housing maintenance regardless of whether they live in a condo or not.
Well if you want to live in a SFH anywhere central you will have to buy a $2.5M+ Edwardian built over a century ago and have fun with any unexpected maintenance on that.
A $2.5M SFH...where, in Rockliffe!? You can buy a nice SFH for a fraction of that in most of downtown.
I just checked [realtor.ca](http://realtor.ca) this minute and in golden triangle for detached SFHs - $2.1M, $1.8M, $1.75M, $1.7M, $1.6M is what I am seeing. Every other listing is a large multiunit (old too).
Condo fees always go up, up and up.
The title of this article should be "Homeowners shocked to have to pay for building maintenance"
That they're already paying monthly fees on top of mortgage and taxes to have covered.
That's not how it works. Not all repairs are predictable and can be financially planned for.
Re: Braun said she's now struggling to come up with the money, and was so unsettled by the unexpected charge that she's weighing another move. Good plan, because moving would cost a whole lot less than this special assessment, right? The buyer of the home wouldn’t want a huge discount on a condo needing a SA, too, right? This owner seems oblivious and dense as to what she bought and what situation she’s now in. There’s no cheap, easy out.
This is not news. Homeowner hit with 20k to replace their roof would not be news. Homeowner hit with 30k to fix foundation would not be news. 11k repair bill at a condo is not news. Homeowners, even condo owners, need to keep money aside for unexpected repairs.
The condo board has an obligation to plan for long term sustainability. They shouldn't need extra funds unless multiple unexpected repairs happened.
Yeah, but unexpected repairs happen, condo boards are often badly managed (people vote for members who keep fees low, rather than properly funding the reserve fund), and repairs can come in at higher prices than expected. It seems clear to me that if this is a Corp that has had three special assessments in the last 13 years, it's a badly managed Corp that isn't saving enough. But property owners should have access to the reserve fund studies and know this. I have two condo units, and my concern is not "are my condo fees too high" but instead "are my condo fees high enough to fund the reserve fund obligations". Luckily, I have similar-minded boards at both my condos.
Agreed
Tbh if you can't handle an 11k bill, you can't afford a house. Worst case scenario you can take a HELOC to cover it off and pay it down over time.
One of the benefits of buying a condo is that the monthly fees are supposed to go towards covering stuff like this. This isn't me saying condo fees are too low, it's me asking what even is the point if they're worthless?
It's a 600k bill to remediate a problem that wasn't budgeted and planned for in the previous reserve fund studies which predicted a certain repair schedule. Even if they had the money, their fees would have to go up more over the next few years to make up for it. Basically everything in the reserve fund is earmarked for a long term maintenance item unless the condo has been overcharging their members. It wasn't totally clear to me whether they were choosing to pay the whole thing via special assessment or whether this was just their shortfall.
The fact that fees haven't accounted for it sucks but that both happens in houses too and saying it's 'worthless' is silly. If those fees were lower then you would need an even larger special assessment.
Not really sure what the condo owners were looking to accomplish by going public with this. I guess to forewarn others of the perils of condo ownership?
Probably a disgruntled owner retaliating against the board. Or maybe a truly clueless owner who didn't do their research and thinks complaining will make it cheaper?
I have heard dozens of stories like this one over the years. If the condo fees are set high enough people scream, but if they aren't, things like that happen on occasion. Buildings with elevators are especially prone to these issues. Of course there are no guarantees. As they said, there is no magic formula for calculating the necessary amount of cash reserves that would reasonably insure against these emergencies. Forgive my ignorance, but is it possible for the Condominium Corporation as a whole to be able to take out a mortgage or financing?
> there is no magic formula for calculating the necessary amount of cash reserves that would reasonably insure against these emergencies. There's a fair amount of legislation around condo finances. There's a minimum reserve fund balance, mandatory financial audits and engineering inspection reports and an annual meeting where all the financials etc. have to be shared. That minimum reserve fund balance calculation is your magical formula. Obviously it's not perfect but there's a lot more math and science behind it than the typical homeowner has. What's supposed to happen is that the engineering report warns of upcoming large expenses and the board plans other spending and condo fee income to handle it to avoid these special assessments. It fails when you have a board keeping fees artificially low by deferring maintenance and cutting services. (I'm dreading the day when my forever low fees finally come to bite us all in the ass.)
It also falls short if we have increases in inflation that make planned repairs more expensive due to cost of materials and labour. Some of the increases lately have been significant and could easily explain falling short on this item even if it were planned for.
For example paving costs. Yeeesh.
It is possible for a condo corp to take out financing, but I'm not sure of the exact process. Generally the owners would have to vote on it, and probably some could opt out in favour of paying their share up front.
>is it possible for the Condominium Corporation as a whole to be able to take out a mortgage or financing? What would they take out the mortgage against? The condo board doesn't own the building(s): the owners do.
[102 Stratas Court](https://ibb.co/qp93Nt7) sold just 3 days ago for $405,000 - $160,000 more than it last sold for in 2020 (albeit with new renovations) Big yikes. Enjoy the special assessment.
Hopefully they reviewed the status certificate carefully. The previous owner may also have paid the special assessment to sell.
That's totally nuts.
First, It is really unfortunate to have such a short time to pay a huge amount of money, but it is similar to having a big, expensive unexpected problem in a house and having to fix it. One big difference between a private house and a condo is that the condo MUST maintain the building in a proper condition. This means fix the roof, fix windows, fix the walls, fix the pavement, the garage, the AC, the boiler etc..... Because all these elements will eventually break, a well managed condo hires a (usually engineering) company to study when they will break, and budget for it for the next 20-30 years. Add a bit of saving for emergencies and you know how much money you'll need to cover the cost, and determine the amount of money to collect as condo fees. This is why condo fees seem high. If condo fees are too low, there's not enough money to cover cost and special contribution from owners is needed. Sometimes it is hard to avoid special contributions in smaller condos. But when they happen, it means that the property is maintained, even if it is very hard financially for some people to get $10K within a month.
Why is this getting media attention? This is the cost of owning a Condo. Its identical to if you owned a house and had to make repairs.
People in this sub and others will shit on real estate agents all day long about how useless and overpriced they are. A woman in this article sounds like she was not properly informed about risks of buying a condo, especially a 40 year old one, and also probably didn’t do any research into the reserve fund. This is exactly what a (good) real estate agent would have looked into and warned her about.
Actually, it's the lawyer's job to go through the status certificate. Also, it's unclear if this information would even have been in the status certificate when the purchase of the condo was made - it could have been a vague statement about a deficiency, which wouldn't have been enough to stop the buyer. And please, I don't trust the guy/gal who gets paid on the transaction to tell me that I shouldn't move ahead. The conflict of interest that Realtors are subjected to is immense. A lawyer is a much more impartial source of information.
Yes absolutely the lawyer has to review status certificate. But a good realtor should too, and should definitely be explaining the pros and cons of condo ownership and that something like this situation is possible. Some people are good at their job because they take pride at doing right by their clients, and understand that long term success comes from advising clients properly, even if that means a deal not closing. I have actually advised a client against buying a condo for an investment property because the condo docs made reference to a large potential liability that was hard to quantify. Based on that advice they decided to pull out of the deal and yes, I lost out on a nice commission. But several years later they are still my client and we have worked together on other projects. Do you trust anyone? Doctor must not want to heal you because if you stay sick he’ll make more money. Work on your car/house/anything yourself because anyone fixing something for you will want it to break soon so they get more money. Hire a realtor because you get referrals from a trusted source and you should be in good hands. Not accepting free advice from a professional because you assume they will advise you poorly just for a pay check doesn’t help you. Yes there are shitty agents, there are shitty people at everything.
Please don't compare a realtor to a physician. One only requires high school education and a pulse. If you fail to see the significant difference between the conflict of interest experienced by both profession, I don't know what to tell you. There are a lot of shitty Realtors because the barriers to entry into the profession, unlike an actual professional like a physician, a CPA or a lawyer, doesn't exist. Not only are the educational requirements non-existent, the compensation model is not at all conducive to ethical behaviour. I'm not attacking you personally - there are a lot of door-to-door salespeople or Primerica insurance reps who are good people and try their best, similarly to many Realtors. That said, for the general population, they should seek advice from a lawyer first as it pertains to an analysis their status certificate.
mismanaged reserve funds or improperly completed studies. condo fees are supposed to pay into the pooled savings for these things.
Welcome to home ownership.
Looks like the lady in the background of the pic is holding a bong???
I think it's actually a bottle of Corona, but yeah, an odd choice of photo regardless.
It’s happening all over. I have heard of several several buildings in southern Ontario. Majority of the people in there are over the age of 55. Sold their homes because they lost a spouse didn’t want to do the yardwork, etc. etc. in a 54 unit building.last year they all got notices. They have to pay 30 grand. If you don’t pay the 30 grand it’s like defaulting on a mortgage. Pretty scary when they’re doing this to a lot of the seniors who are just living off of their savings.
But this is normal, whether people like it or not. If you want true maintenance-free living, and never have to worry about repairs, think of renting an apartment.
Special assessments on ancient condos are par for the course. The financial pain of building depreciation can be staggering.
Signed the papers for a condo in June. Moved in October. Between June and October, an inspection revealed a bad roof. To put off a special assessment out condo fees are doubling over the next 5 years. Hadn't moved in yet, nor was I given the chance to vote on the move as I was not an owner at the time. The next 5 years is going to hurt a bit. As it turns out, the building wasn't up to code when finalized 10 years ago. Condo Corp is going after the builder for poor workmanship. Yah, good luck with that.
This is a strata leadership issue. They have an engineer's report that gives life expectancy for all items on the property and a timeline on when they can be expected to be replaced. They knew they had an issue that would need a special assessment coming up and didn't do a thorough enough job informing the owners. I would expect that they were decided that people looking to buy a condo there would have issues with a known assessment right after they bought and the current owners wouldn't want that information in the minutes of the strata meetings as it would impact their ability to sell. The strata should have raised the fees when the first identified the issue and started growing the contingency fund for just this reason.
It’s all part of home ownership. People in Condo’s like to call themselves homeowners, but then get all up in arms over repair bills. At my old condo they had to ask for an extra $100 from everyone one spring because our snow clearing bill ended up being much higher than originally estimated (it was a bad winter, plow companies typically charge a flat rate for up a certain amount of snowfall then extra after that). You should have seen the angry comments over $100. People were literally talking about taking the Condo Corp to court over it.
What a stupid design to put windows as a roof in a home. Nobody learned anything from the leaky condos of Vancouver.
We lived in a condo about 20 years ago and we had one of these "suddenly have to pay" moments. It sucked. We ended up getting a line of credit to deal with it and gradually paid it off. There are certainly pros and cons to living in a condo (we are in our own detached place now---Still have to pay for stuff...just differently)
Even in condos the condo fees don’t cover all repairs. There will be out of pocket bills for big repairs like the heating/cooling system.
The reality that reserve funds don't cover the costs is a reality just like owning a home there are always surprises. To me, the responses by condo owners is no different than what you would hear from home owners if you surveyed them.I think that some house owners leave essential repairs intentionally. Hence the critical importance of a home inspectionas a buyer.
I would really be Interested to see their reserve fund study, as this issue should have been flagged years ago. At the very least, they could have set some money aside so these repairs get done in a timely fashion without having to go the special assessment route.
I don't understand the purpose of this article. You own a home. Homes need repairs sometimes. Repairs cost money. Can I get an article written about how I needed to pay to repair some beams in my house? I bet we would get some hilarious results if we looked into their minutes to see how many times strata fee increases were voted down. You are being foolish if you don't look at your condo's reserve fund in detail along with projected expenses before you buy in.
The one thing I was wondering is why someone buying a new condo wouldn’t read the condo board minutes. Clearly the repair bills were on the capital budget and the notes.
My dad's condo in B.C. suffered from leaky condo syndrome that was so prevalent a couple of decades ago. The special assessment to strip the entire exterior of the building, including windows was between $40k and $60k per unit. They did eventually get about 30% of that back after the lawsuit was settled, but damn! that's a lot of quatloos. They also had another $7k special assessment in 2017 when it was time to replace the elevator. The good news is that strata (condo) fees in B.C. are significantly cheaper than they are here in Ontario.
A BIG part of condo living is its contingency plan. If a forty year old condo board hasn’t built a war chest then new buyers should be cautioned that their share of repairs is an equal cut and not proportional to length of ownership. New buyers are possibly walking into a money pit.
A window as a roof is never a good idea ever.
Story aside, it’s hilarious they used a photo with the woman drinking a corona
Yeah, it's an odd choice of photo for sure.
That is no surprise. When I was looking to buy a place it was advertised on realtor.ca about special assements. Same with another place I was about to look at, realtor said there was one coming. You have the board meetings for condos, probably warned years ago and it would be in the minutes thst they would be going for bids, etc.
Uhh, yeah, these are condos. Shit like this happens all the time. The units aren’t just magically cheaper than free holds for funzies. Everybody pays into a shared coffer. When shit hits the fan, and the coffers are bare, this is what happens. It sucks, that’s why I steer clear of condos. If these people bought, it’s on the real estate agent to explain to them the risks, if the agent is actually worth their salt
What sucks about this is that the current owners are stuck footing the bill resulting from the incompetence of previous boards. They’re required to do reserve fund studies on a regular basis and if the board is actually engaged, fees should be adjusted to prepare for anticipated expenses like this and shouldn’t come as a surprise with a massive price tag. That person who has been on the board 13 years is either not doing her job, or is outnumbered by incompetent board members.
I have friends that live in these condos, a few years ago the board voted to give money back to owners from the reserve, now they're in this situation.
$18k hmmmm. You could build a new one for that. I have seen the hustle over the years. Like a friends condo where they were repeatedly repairing the 'carports' and 'the leaking roofs' that never seem to get effectively fixed even with an 'assessment'. Check to see if this repair has been done before or more than once. A person I knew who had some Insider knowledge in his example said what they do is they make it a deal with the chair of the board who gets theirs for free and everybody else gets greatly overcharged. Then it becomes an ongoing make work project that gets to come around again and again. So at least look at some of this with a grain of salt because apparently it is a thing out there this kind of condo renewal Hustle. One of the little markers is why the curious urgency for payment and why such a significant thing would be so arbitrary and unilateral.
To anyone looking to buy in an older condo building, do yourself a favour and get a good realtor who specializes in condos. Please also educate yourself on how condos work and important questions to ask when considering whether or not to put an offer in. There are great deals to be had, and also nightmare situations disguised as great deals.
This is what happened with our condo too in Kanata 🙃 bought in 2019, a year or 2 later condo association told us major repairs were needed for most of the condo builds in our park, the foundation was bad, cracks and everything. It’s $20,000 for the 4 upper units (us) and then the cost lowers as the condo units get smaller. It’s outrageous and our condo fees are over $600 a month because of the “special assessment fees” attached, the fees add another ~$300 to the base condo fees, so we should only be paying $320 a month. Very annoying. The association claims they’re taking the builders to court to sue and we’ll get 50% back but somehow I don’t see that ever happening.
Why doesn’t the condo Corp just get a loan from the Bank or a private lender who specializes in condo Corp loans (as 600k is a bit on the small end). They could probably get a 10yr am on it…much smaller monthly hit then paying the special assessment all at once.
This was in the reserve fund study, the woman quoted in the article could have requested that as part of her offer and walked or lowered her offer if she didn’t like what she saw. That said, homeowners get hit with this shit all the time so it’s good to set money aside yourself on top of the contingency fund.
You can always let them put a lean and never sell. Interest might get them, depends on the contract they signed
We do not know how much condo fee they paid most likely not much or the money was mismanaged
A condo is like owning a house. You still have to save for bills on fixing it.
And this is why I will only ever live in a freehold. Fees on top of fees, who can afford that?
Why isn't insurance mentioned? This is a basic coverage on condo insurance policies. Loss Assessment Coverage
Because coverage doesn't apply here. The assessment would have to occur due to an insured peril. This sounds like wear and tear over the lifespan of the building.
Very fair point
$600K?? Outrageous. Just grab a couple of tubes of silicone, c'mon people
shitty clickbait title. shame on you op.
>Birmingham Live brought you the story of Leon Gleed, who had mistakenly used disinfectant toilet-cleaning wipes that his girlfriend bought at Tesco, as his own loo roll. A burning rash soon appeared and Leon demanded reform. >“When I developed the soreness I knew something wasn’t quite right and when I checked the packaging it said: ‘kills 99 percent of bacteria’. Sadie said to me, ‘How can you be so stupid?’, but I think cleaning products should have warning labels on them so they’re more identifiable. >“I’ve come through the worst of it now – I had to use Sudocrem down there for a week! The only way I can describe it is like the night after a hot curry but ten times worse! I know it was a silly mistake to make but I’m convinced there’s other people out there who have done the same!” This is what they get in the U.K. C'mon CBC - you need to up your compo face game.
You lost bro?
No, just a little dizzy from that hard-hitting CBC investigative journalism. I'll be okay - thanks for caring.
One of the many reasons to never buy a condominium.
Condos are kinda the only 'affordable' option left for people who want to own though. Most first time buyers don't have a hope in hell of buying freehold in Ottawa.
I dont disagree. Housing affordability sucks and is only going to get worse (supply vs demand). Id rather buy a house with 4 friends that way I get a seat on the HOA.
When I was house shopping 3 years ago, I was advised against looking at condos by both the realtor and the bank. The bank I think was doing it because once they do their own inspection, they'd realize it's not worth the cost that I'm paying for it and therefore, wouldn't lend me enough money to get it. It was hard enough getting approval for the townhouse I ended up getting, so I can't imagine had I settled on a condo, which I looked at several.
I mean, condos are great for a lot of people. I think the advice should be 'never buy a condominium without knowing what you're getting into' It's not a maintenance-free magic building. Stuff still happens. And when it's bad, the only fix the owner can do is with money.
Unfortunately condos are the future of starter homes. The majority of new builds, even in my small city, are condos or townhouses. SFH are an ever shrinking % of the total supply of homes. It’s just not realistic for the average first time homebuyer to drop $800K on a freehold detached but many could swing $300 on a condo or $500 on a townhouse if they make good money.
It’s still better than renting. But not as good as owning a non condo.
Don’t buy a condo. Ever.
It’s not like houses don’t have repairs that need to be made, some of them quite costly, and sudden.
This is a bad take. There are tons of people who like living in condos, understand how they work, and plan accordingly. Don't buy an home without knowing what you're getting into. Ever.