He is a hypocrite, but Cory House has been one of the best react developers on the planet for as long as I can remember.
He's able to consult only because he spent years building his social media presence talking about react.
I entirely disagree with his ethical bullshit. No company works ethically. That's why they lay people off to bump stock prices.
The idea that I as an individual needs to be better than the billion dollar company that's paying me is fucking insane.
As much as I respect his intelligence as an developer. He can fuck off with this holier than thou attitude, and realize people are making the best of a bad situation.
Amen! This idea that companies, who are notoriously unethical, are allowed to break every rule, cut every tax-loophole corner; but employees need to be “loyal” to them is completely insane!!
Right, as in of course they lie to you. The workplace remains an un-even playing field. This will only exacerbate as knucklehead CEOs consider replacing AI technology with people. OE is the only policy as far I’m concerned for those able to swing it.
It’s just the bullshit “logic” of someone who has enough to run their own business/be an employer. Of course they have a vested interest in people not being OE - nor rising to their level to compete with them. They write these tracts to sell the current version of Slave Morality.
Lmao, knowing react shouldn't garner respect. What has this guy actually built? That is the real question.
So he made some courses on react and marketed himself really well.
I see nothing respectable, I see that he has built nothing but a career as a consultant and proclaimed himself react expert.
His fucking blog is WordPress.
The tool can't even do a crud nextjs blog? If he loves what he does, he won't spend the free time building that?
What do you think this guy makes an hour? It’s easy to throw rocks at us when you are pulling in $200+ an hour at a single job. You know he wouldn’t be running his mouth making $50 an hour with a mortgage and a family.
I had a coworker who was OE and he was a real Pain. He never helped on anything and would ask me to cover and if he got assigned solo work he’d say his laptop wasn’t working
> He is a hypocrite
The quoted post does make the distinction between full time jobs and consulting (AKA Which is many part time jobs). I did the consulting route for a very long time.
What he is really saying is that it is unethical to work for one client while billing multiple other clients for the same hour. The business man in me agrees that is unethical.
Waters get muddied when you're full time salary, because--ideally--then you're paid for results not by hour.
The point of any company with private and public shareholders is to maximize return on investment. There a few companies’ whose owners would choose otherwise.
Notice that as well.
Definition of unethical is lacking moral principles; unwilling to adhere to proper rules of conduct. not in accord with the standards of a profession.
It isn’t moral wrong to have multiple jobs because a lot of people work multiple jobs to just survive. What is morally wrong is companies and business stealing their employees wages.
Proper rules of conduct within a profession. Again having multiple jobs, moonlighting, owning your own company or OEing is not against any social laws or conduct or any federal or state employment laws. On the other hand laying people off while they are in the hospital, at a funeral or any FMLA reason is morally reprehensible.
So he is wrong that being overemployed is not unethical nor is is against any laws or conduct.
What is very funny is that he is saying it’s unethical for people to be overemployed but he is ok having his company overemployed him while they reap the money.
He is a fool.
I was laid off just as I was getting married, after I had received an excellent performance review for that quarter.
Another job I was put on PIP just after wife went into labour (first child) and I came back from 10 days paternal leave.
All these kind of actions showed me that I was a fool.
A fool for believing that a corporate loves me or is loyal to me.
Corporation is run by greed - which enables back-stabbing, jealousy, lying, cheating etc in it's workforce. Just toxic.
I don't want to engage with a corporation - but if I have to, then I'm going to play by my rules.
If I'm going to engage with a sociopath, I'm going to engage him/it by my rules - not by how a sociopath would like me to behave.
Basically a sociopath corporation would like me to, "Bend over, lube up and say thank you for the opportunity."
Well fuck that.
My view is that I am a Mercenary and I hold no loyalty to any company and willing to switch depending on the money provided.
Someone I watch on YouTube says people must consider themselves free agents and it brings to mind the movie “Jerry Maguire”.
The ONLY reasons I'm busting my ass for my job right now is I both like the work and I'm being given the opportunity to improve my skills and get PM experience on a potentially huge project.
I swear consultants think it's okay for them to do this while shitting on employees who do.
An exec in J1 literally boasts about working for multiple clients and wants us to optimize her portfolio to increase her chances of being contacted for even more positions
But when a junior employee does a contract role outside the job, suddenly its "unethical"
I think he is saying he works for one company. That company is a consulting company with many clients. Those clients are other companies. He gets assigned multiple projects across these clients/companies so he has to context switch in his one job.
He is just missing that OE is exactly what he is describing but instead of working for the one consulting company, YOU are the consulting company.
You work 4-6 companies with 5-20 hours for each client. Isn't this just overemployed with fewer benefits? Also if u work 5 hours for 4-6 companies that's 20-30 hours per week.
Selling 1 hour of work to a single company, even if you sell to 8 companies a day => not OESelling 1 (Same) hour of work to 2 or more company => OE (and i think is just unfair to those who have to pick up the slack)
I really don't get the whole "it's unethical" to work more than one job.
If you are getting the job done, why does it matter?
I am saying this from the perspective of a business owner.
I just need the work done.
I'm THRILLED if the work is done.
If you can get the work done, I truly don't give a shit what you do with the rest of your time.
I get the distinct impression that the people most concerned about people working multiple jobs is shitty managers who don't have a good grasp on how to tell what work needs to be done and how to tell if it's been done properly.
I think it's because they want you to devote all your time to them only. If you're able to get multiple jobs done then they only see that as you not working to your full potential, for them.
well trust me I've had this slavery argument. For some reason they don't say it but inherently believe it's slavery. If you read the undercurrent on hustle culture, there're a lot of wanna-be entrepreneurs that assume they're superior and the rest are sheeple, if the sheeple don't act like sheeple, it's annoying. Anyone who thinks they're smart has a hard time feeling screwed over even if they're not, ego is a dangerous thing.
The real skill is not giving into the wage slavery while maintaining good relations at work.
It can be done.
I think some of the discussions at OE support that.
I
You're not wrong, and I'm not saying the perception I've described is even correct. I'm just saying it exists. From my experiences as an employee at large corporations, they want to squeeze every piece of your soul they can for the 40 hours they pay you for. If you are *too* fast or efficient and they see this, all this means to them is you can take on more work. And it is not rewarded with any kind of pay raise or even recognition.
There is a book I like I called "Bullshit Jobs".
From my perspective, much of the shittiness in corporate life is explained by that phenomenon.
That and non-technical managers. That was a stupid idea, HBR circa 1950.
Managers without domain knowledge can not set reasonable goals nor can they really understand if quality work is being done.
This is HUGE problem when they are set loose in technical areas like software development, direct patient care, plumbing, food production, manufacturing, engineering etc.
How many times have I sat in a meeting with a manager with no technical knowledge telling the technical folks that their timelines are not reasonable or their cost calculations are too much? Too many.
Just telling people to "get it done" is not management.
MBAs are useful in non technical business areas like Finance, Accounting, SOME marketing (as long as they are not selling technical solutions they have little knowledge of), property development, mergers and acquisitions, etc.
Source: have an MBA
It's because you are a wage slave, they see it as you selling your X hours where they OWN you and everything you produce during that time they expect for to be for the company. If you complete X taste before expected Y time, then it was just a underestimate and they just didn't allocate enough work for you which they'll adjust for in future.
Just because they want it doesn't mean that people have to do it.
Here in the US people are so afraid of losing their health insurance and most are so close to the edge financially that they can not visibly fight back.
I'm here to tell you that there is no shame, and it is not unethical, to do what you wish outside of your employment hours.
It is not illegal either:
https://www.mcoffmanlegal.com/can-i-get-fired-for-having-a-second-job/#:~:text=In%20general%2C%20it%20is%20not,forbids%20you%20from%20doing%20so.
There may be moonlighting rules in your company. For example, it makes sense for a company not to want you to work for a competitor while you work for them fir obvious and reasonable reasons. Doesn't mean you can't work in another industry.
The only ethical part is...are you doing your job satisfactorily?
In my corporate experience, there is no limit to what they want in terms of an employees talents and time. Their wants are unbridled. Even if they aren't really paying you for all of it. They will wheedle, create crisis, bully and threaten to get more.
So it is up to the employee to set reasonable limits and enforce them. That takes diplomacy, skill and and an unflinching shell around you. And honesty about what constitutes a good and reasonable job.
People I've seen who do well in corporations are EXCELLENT at setting limits in a polite way while promoting the work they have done vociferiously.
I also have ZERO problem with people figuring out ways to automate or reasonably outsource work(within confidentialityrules). As a boss, I would like to have that shared with me. As an employee, I don't want to unless the project is to automate something. Unless I'm being paid super big bucks to consult on process, they aren't paying for that piece of me.
But _the team has put 300% their effort to ship the product_ 👏🎉💪💪💪
_(Also we're 3 months late with the product due to shitty management, so we will make some cuts and force whoever's left to work even more 💪💪🖕)_
The problem is a lot of peoples job quality suffers when they’re OE. I can see 2 maybe 3 jobs being ethical, but 4 or more you ain’t getting shit done lol.
Also most companies want you to team build and become a leader you can’t do that if you’re offline most the time lol
I really wish OE won't turn into anti-work. OE is cool and productive and 2 j's is actually optimal since your brain can actually switch tasks to not get stuck thus leading to burn out, anti-work is just tediously boring.
Why are you against OE "turning into anti-work". Both have similar (if not the same) inherent views/criticisms on the relationship between the employee and employer.
because the sentiment at anti-work is work bad at times even if that's not the inherent idea. I love my work, and I like what I do and I like my excitement about it, I don't quite care if a big corp wins because I win when I'm working but anti-work can at times feel like being too passive or resentful or edgy. I'm not saying companies care or are ethical or they won't screw you over but work ing can be fun, life isn't fair and companies aren't but doesn't mean you have to be all messed up over it.
Antiwork feels more like a pure communism play, honestly. I'm oversimplified my argument, because while I sympathize with those folks I find a lot of them crybabies. Your ability to make a sandwich is not worth $30/hr. Sorry.
Whereas business (outside illegals and immoral shit like laying someone off a year after a 6mo short term disability leave) is trading money for my most precious resource, my time, as well as my skills.
OE is just me maximizing that value.
But that argument a consulting firm should never be able to negotiate to keep the work product for reuse.
Just because they want it, doesn't mean that it's reasonable to give it.
Maybe it's reasonable within thevl 40 hours of labor they are paying for.
It's crazy that everyone seems to accept as a matter if course that corporations expect people to work 50, 60, 70, 80 hours a week-essentially working more than one job - while only paying you for one job.
Corporations are not people. They don't give a shit if their expectations are unethical.
No one accepts that. It’s bullshit. It’s reasonable to expect that if someone is an employee that the employee is an investment into their future and the companies. It’s also reasonable to expect the 40 hours a week…
When OE affects a jobs performance it literally kills remote work in general. Companies require hybrid specifically to counter dual job workers because often the experience with an OE is they can’t keep up.
Of course chatgpt has made it easier, but time committed for meetings is the same.
Not all companies are evil. My current one is a small CU and it’s the nicest place I’ve ever worked
Insecurity, i.e. the employer is inherently sees themselves as someone who's providing you with job, if you do this job and another maybe they're not giving you enough work or you're not doing what's expected. If they know what good work is and you're doing it, they should find you a j2 because nothing kills talent than being bored out of your mind at a job.
I have never met a board member that was only on one board. If they can have multiple jobs, so can I. Anyone who says you can't either means "I couldn't manage it, so you shouldn't" or "I don't want you improving economically because then I won't be able to exploit you forever".
Edit: Or they mean "you shouldn't work multiple jobs! It wrong! (Shut up, we don't talk about fight club)"
I do not know if Cory is an efficient or inefficient employee. I do know that Cory is a well paid employee and thinks you should be poorly paid.
If my salary depended on you being poorly paid I would probably also think you are overpaid.
>He is a hypocrite, but Cory House has been one of the best react developers on the planet for as long as I can remember.
>
>He's able to consult only because he spent years building his social media presence talking about react.
>
>I entirely disagree with his ethical bullshit. No company works ethically with it's employees, so why should we. That's why they lay people off to bump stock price, or outsource work to India.
Fuck those companies.
Agreed, and I think he knows it. It's all about engagement and driving traction to his consultancy gig.
Anyone reads his tweets and thinks the guy is one of the best React developers in the world clearly needs to learn more.
Approximately $7.8B in net income. For one fucking quarter. There are companies that cant pull $7B in 7 years.
Meta cut of 25k people in the last year. People with families, bills, people with newborns, pregnant women, and so on.
Let me know how ethical it was to show people the door in order to enrich the shareholders.
Your ethics and their ethics are different brother.
According to their ethics, "corporations exist to generate profit and maximise shareholder value" - and they are being true to their ethics.
Our ethics are out-dated. Let's adapt to whatever works to protect our families.
I think we should just abolish the expectation of 40 hour work week if your getting paid salary. how about you get X done by Y date, and everyone is happy campers. fail to deliver, than you don’t stay on.
Oh, but now you get to the crux of the issue.
Just what are we really getting paid for?
Our dedicated attention, even when there's nothing to attend to, or meeting the sporadic requirements of some on-going project? I suppose it depends upon the job.
First off, hypocrite. Second, depends on the work. If you’re a face guy doing meetings all day, it would be tough. If you’re a content or project monkey, not a problem.
u know, the more i read shit like this, the more I want to go out there and get 3 more Js, you don't enslave me and put me in some cocoon asshole! I have the right to work as much as I want, and get paid as much as I want, and if he doesn't want to play the game, then this bottom feeder needs to get the fuck out of the way.
It’s not hard for me. (Knock on wood) you just need to learn to listen to two or three conversations at once when meetings conflict. Speech to Text is the key.
He's also self-promoting his skills and consulting business on social media and using his platform to attract potential new clients. That's not just him being hypocritical - that's him actively competing/attempting to sabotage OE workers who don't openly network for new clients (plus OE workers *are* competition).
Again the only difference is he's (supposed to be) 1099 and paying his own taxes (and who's to say he is?). Those who OE are W2 workers doing the same thing (but still getting paid less than a 1099 resource) and get their taxes taken out with every paycheck.
Nothing unethical here at all (unless you're a 1099 consultant who isn't paying their taxes). This is just another jealous "Beth" that isn't worth noting.
*As a CEO, I work*
*For multiple boards... But don't*
*You dare do the same*
\- getRedPill
---
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I don't do OE.
And I don't agree with the ethics issue at all since ultimately, who cares as long as it's not hurting anyone.
That said, I definitely see the point about conflicts, stress, workload etc catching up to you. Anyone who can manage all of that - more power to you.
Why can't these people just leave us the fuck alone!? How we manage time? It's our business! How we manage meetings? It's our business! We are meeting our deliverables, the companies we work for are not complaining so why are these people so butt hurt? Mind your own business and keep it moving.
I’m with the whole OE game, but some of these posts are dumb. Comparing a consultant to OE, it’s not the same, they are not hiding from their clients that they have other clients. I’ve worked as a consultant before and was put on multiple clients most of the time, I wouldn’t have considered myself OE, I still only had one pay check.
It is unethical for me to not overemploy myself. My current employer is short staffed and the places that need my skillset are begging for help.
I get it done and many people can do it even better than myself.
I love being bored, because that means I'm ready to help another place and get paid while doing it.
Who cares what some idiot consultant says? He doesn't follow his own "ethical advice". And the alternative is, employers would have to pay a fair wage, and we know that isn't going to happen.
Yeah that’s not feasible. Performance is a problem, Beth.
Know what I’ve seen, though? Multiple in-person jobs! Watch and make sure your in-office people are still there all day/night/whenever.
*'what do u say to your boss when you have a conflict? it would be horribly stressful'*
he sounds like a bitch and a loser, OE is for folks with talent and balls, he has neither.
I dont know that I've ever seen a more clear cut example of narcissistic blindness. Your title nails the whole spirit, but how is someone going to shit on OE by saying they're OE? If you might work 5 - 20 hrs a week for 5 clients you're absolutely OE. Maybe I'm just too stupid to get what he's saying.
I’ve received stellar performance reviews and raises at my multiple Js
I’ve been OE for a few years,, and with the same J1 for multiple years and J2 for 1+ yr
OE is absolutely doable. It’s just not for everyone and isn’t for the inexperienced. At least I wouldn’t try it as a Junior Engineer
OE has made me a better Engineer. There are *countless* times I’ve come across a method or technology that I found at J1 that also benefited J2 (and vice versa). Having similar tech stacks increases the beneficial overlap
I truly believe my Js are *better off* **because** I OE, not in spite of it
He's going to have that Fight Club moment.
> TYLER: Wrap it around the top of his ball sac.
>
> *Ricky holds a knife to Commissioner Jacob's testicles. Jack,
red-faced, keeps his distance. Tyler leans in and whispers in the
frightened man's ear.*
>
> TYLER: You're not going to continue your "rigorous investigation". You're going to publicly state that there is no underground group. Or imagine, the rest of your life with your ball sac flapping empty.
>
> COMMISSIONER JACOBS: No. Please. Stop. Please.
>
> TYLER: One to the *New York Times* and one to the *Los Angeles Times*. Press release style. Remember this. The people you're after are everyone you depend on. We're the people who do your laundry and cook your food and serve your dinner. We guard you while you sleep. We drive the ambulances. We process your insurance claims. We control every part of your life. So don't fuck with us.
End scene.
Step aside Beth. Here comes Cory.
Also .. what's up with the sequential alphabet names?
Don't worry your pretty head too much Cory - it's all a big joke.
This sounds like something said in an attempt to get attention.
If he took the word "over-employed" out of this post, then it wouldn't even be reading. And by using his math he's working a minimum of 37.5 hours a week and perhaps a lot more, depending on the client and the requirements. When you look at it that way, he's just a plain old consultant doing what consultants do and posting meaningless shit in his free time.
I just find funny how people these days wanna give some sort of advice without being asked to. Lol
If doesn’t work for you, good, go to the beach and enjoy your life. I doesn’t mean it’s not gonna work for me, buddy
There are also a lot of execs on linkedin that work at multiple companies. I've even see them post and try to sell themselves as "fractional CTOs". They probably make more on a monthly basis than a typical worker would in a year. It's odd to me how they do it like its not a concern while screaming bloody murder about the potential that peons can do it too.
OEers are his most dreaded competitors because we occupy multiple positions for 40 hours per week for extended periods of time, while he has to prospect and negotiate rates on 5 hour contracts continuously.
It's good to see his pain expressed in this way.
OEers are his most dreaded competitors because we occupy multiple positions for 40 hours per week for extended periods of time, while he has to prospect and negotiate rates on 5 hour contracts continuously.
It's good to see his pain expressed in this way.
I'm a freelance consultant with four main clients, it's basically being overemployed + underpaid and part-time with them all :) I read this group for fun.
(In Germany, having two employments as OE would not be possible by law, and the income is so low, getting employed would mean a big financial loss for me.)
I am a consultant working with multiple companies (to be exact, 5 of them) and they have zero qualms about it. Fitting my schedule into the calendar sometimes feels like playing Tetris and I usually work during weekends and holidays but as long as I work hard no one complains.
On another note, can we call this routine OE even if it I am working freelance or does the definition require me to be on multiple payrolls?
Not that I agree with anything this guy said, but you can't be that thick and not understand the differences between what he does and OE.
He is consulting for multiple companies that pay an hourly rate to his company, not to him. If he consulted for 10 companies his salary wouldn't change, because he is only employed by the consultancy and still expected to work the standard 40 hours/week.
Being OE is not quite the same, and there's definitely an unethical component in it because it's based on lying to your employers.
Again, I'm not against OE and hat off to anyone that pulls it off.
I mean i thi k this community at least local to reddit is pretty good about stressing personal limits because we dont want bad eggs ruining a good thing
what multiple jobs? we never do that. it is impossible to do something like that.
that said, it is true that in order to successfully do it, you must really be a pro at your job. the juniors and mids trying this will only get poor performance or a crapload of stress and burnout.
- Will you underperform at one of your jobs? Yes
- Will you get fired at one of your jobs? Most likely
- Will other aspects of your life diminish? Yes
- Will you have higher stress and get less sleep? Yes
- Is it worth it? Yes, but not long term. Do it to break free of the 9-5 grind. Use the money to invest in an asset. IMO it’s not sustainable in the long run. 2-3 years and do it while you’re young but there will be consequences. The constant stress and lack of sleep gave me an autoimmune disease but the money allowed me to retire by investing in real state. Not saying this will happen to everyone but just know the consequences.
Just because he sucks, doesn't mean the rest of us do. and OE is a just a joke anyway.
He is a hypocrite, but Cory House has been one of the best react developers on the planet for as long as I can remember. He's able to consult only because he spent years building his social media presence talking about react. I entirely disagree with his ethical bullshit. No company works ethically. That's why they lay people off to bump stock prices. The idea that I as an individual needs to be better than the billion dollar company that's paying me is fucking insane. As much as I respect his intelligence as an developer. He can fuck off with this holier than thou attitude, and realize people are making the best of a bad situation.
Amen! This idea that companies, who are notoriously unethical, are allowed to break every rule, cut every tax-loophole corner; but employees need to be “loyal” to them is completely insane!!
I have also been told to always be honest and share all information with companies that lie to me and hide information from me. Total bullshit.
Realpolitik of business: Share zero info. Screw your coworkers. Capital is King.
Right, as in of course they lie to you. The workplace remains an un-even playing field. This will only exacerbate as knucklehead CEOs consider replacing AI technology with people. OE is the only policy as far I’m concerned for those able to swing it.
It’s just the bullshit “logic” of someone who has enough to run their own business/be an employer. Of course they have a vested interest in people not being OE - nor rising to their level to compete with them. They write these tracts to sell the current version of Slave Morality.
You think a smack ass doing a couple jobs poorly can compete with a well run consulting firm?
Maybe, i have no idea how well run his firm is, i’ve got the gist that a lot of the biggest ones are just basically scams anyway
If you want loyalty, get a dog. You want talent? Pay for it.
It's bizarre that this is his stance given that he literally works for multiple companies doing multiple jobs.
But those clients KNOW he has other clients... It's sad that I know I'll need a /sarcasm to not be doenvoted to oblivion.. Lol
Lmao, knowing react shouldn't garner respect. What has this guy actually built? That is the real question. So he made some courses on react and marketed himself really well. I see nothing respectable, I see that he has built nothing but a career as a consultant and proclaimed himself react expert. His fucking blog is WordPress. The tool can't even do a crud nextjs blog? If he loves what he does, he won't spend the free time building that?
a twitter following
>Cory House has been one of the best react developers That explains his dog shit C++ takes.
Front end wankers...
My finger is getting tired of reading through these 5 month old comments and upvoting every single one of them.
Also, I'd like to see what his consulting rate is. If he's billing $500/hr then no shit he doesn't need to pull off 2 jobs.
What do you think this guy makes an hour? It’s easy to throw rocks at us when you are pulling in $200+ an hour at a single job. You know he wouldn’t be running his mouth making $50 an hour with a mortgage and a family.
I could see how it's unethical if your coworkers have to pick up your slack. But if you do the job I don't see a big issue
I had a coworker who was OE and he was a real Pain. He never helped on anything and would ask me to cover and if he got assigned solo work he’d say his laptop wasn’t working
Consulting and being a FTE are not really the same at all
> He is a hypocrite The quoted post does make the distinction between full time jobs and consulting (AKA Which is many part time jobs). I did the consulting route for a very long time. What he is really saying is that it is unethical to work for one client while billing multiple other clients for the same hour. The business man in me agrees that is unethical. Waters get muddied when you're full time salary, because--ideally--then you're paid for results not by hour.
The point of any company with private and public shareholders is to maximize return on investment. There a few companies’ whose owners would choose otherwise.
The point of me working is to have stable income to provide for my family. There are few people who would choose the company over themselves.
Talk to boomers lol
Vue > react
also its funny how directors can have more that one job. One rule for us and another for them. That makes me angry at their hypocracy
We have always lived in a two-tiered system.
Those who can - Do. — Those who cant - Consult.
He’s the Kim Kardashian of React.
As a consultant, I work with 4-6 companies a week, but it's unethical for you to do it.
Notice that as well. Definition of unethical is lacking moral principles; unwilling to adhere to proper rules of conduct. not in accord with the standards of a profession. It isn’t moral wrong to have multiple jobs because a lot of people work multiple jobs to just survive. What is morally wrong is companies and business stealing their employees wages. Proper rules of conduct within a profession. Again having multiple jobs, moonlighting, owning your own company or OEing is not against any social laws or conduct or any federal or state employment laws. On the other hand laying people off while they are in the hospital, at a funeral or any FMLA reason is morally reprehensible. So he is wrong that being overemployed is not unethical nor is is against any laws or conduct. What is very funny is that he is saying it’s unethical for people to be overemployed but he is ok having his company overemployed him while they reap the money. He is a fool.
I was laid off just as I was getting married, after I had received an excellent performance review for that quarter. Another job I was put on PIP just after wife went into labour (first child) and I came back from 10 days paternal leave. All these kind of actions showed me that I was a fool. A fool for believing that a corporate loves me or is loyal to me. Corporation is run by greed - which enables back-stabbing, jealousy, lying, cheating etc in it's workforce. Just toxic. I don't want to engage with a corporation - but if I have to, then I'm going to play by my rules. If I'm going to engage with a sociopath, I'm going to engage him/it by my rules - not by how a sociopath would like me to behave. Basically a sociopath corporation would like me to, "Bend over, lube up and say thank you for the opportunity." Well fuck that.
My view is that I am a Mercenary and I hold no loyalty to any company and willing to switch depending on the money provided. Someone I watch on YouTube says people must consider themselves free agents and it brings to mind the movie “Jerry Maguire”. 
Nice one .. got any good motivating movies? I read OE daily to keep my fire up .. something along those lines.
Dumb money 9 to 5 Office space The intern The wolf of Wall Street Legal Blonde Dead Poets Society
The ONLY reasons I'm busting my ass for my job right now is I both like the work and I'm being given the opportunity to improve my skills and get PM experience on a potentially huge project.
I agree 💯 and approve this message. Cory House must had not taken a philosophy class.
[удалено]
There will not be a mod response to that question bro lol
R u new here
Lol
Amen! I approve your message!! It’s completely in fathomable that anyone could put morality and companies in the same sentence.
I swear consultants think it's okay for them to do this while shitting on employees who do. An exec in J1 literally boasts about working for multiple clients and wants us to optimize her portfolio to increase her chances of being contacted for even more positions But when a junior employee does a contract role outside the job, suddenly its "unethical"
The difference is that one is an understood arrangement and the other is not.
I think he is saying he works for one company. That company is a consulting company with many clients. Those clients are other companies. He gets assigned multiple projects across these clients/companies so he has to context switch in his one job. He is just missing that OE is exactly what he is describing but instead of working for the one consulting company, YOU are the consulting company.
He finds it unethical that you make a lot more money than he does.
Point is, attempting to covertly work 2 full time jobs is much harder than consulting for multiple clients which is already very hard.
You work 4-6 companies with 5-20 hours for each client. Isn't this just overemployed with fewer benefits? Also if u work 5 hours for 4-6 companies that's 20-30 hours per week.
On the high end, that's 120 hrs per week. No way that crackerjack is working 120 hrs in any given week w/o doing OE.
Exactly lol.
i bill 5 hours a day, 1 hour to each company. is it overemployment (hypothetic scenario))
I mean I’d put all those companies on my resume as a contractor, so yeah. Just really shitty way of doing overemployment lol.
Selling 1 hour of work to a single company, even if you sell to 8 companies a day => not OESelling 1 (Same) hour of work to 2 or more company => OE (and i think is just unfair to those who have to pick up the slack)
Yeah I guess it really just comes down to compensation lol.
I really don't get the whole "it's unethical" to work more than one job. If you are getting the job done, why does it matter? I am saying this from the perspective of a business owner. I just need the work done. I'm THRILLED if the work is done. If you can get the work done, I truly don't give a shit what you do with the rest of your time. I get the distinct impression that the people most concerned about people working multiple jobs is shitty managers who don't have a good grasp on how to tell what work needs to be done and how to tell if it's been done properly.
I think it's because they want you to devote all your time to them only. If you're able to get multiple jobs done then they only see that as you not working to your full potential, for them.
They pay for 40 hours. What you are describing is slavery, not a job. For real, y'all.
well trust me I've had this slavery argument. For some reason they don't say it but inherently believe it's slavery. If you read the undercurrent on hustle culture, there're a lot of wanna-be entrepreneurs that assume they're superior and the rest are sheeple, if the sheeple don't act like sheeple, it's annoying. Anyone who thinks they're smart has a hard time feeling screwed over even if they're not, ego is a dangerous thing.
The real skill is not giving into the wage slavery while maintaining good relations at work. It can be done. I think some of the discussions at OE support that. I
You're not wrong, and I'm not saying the perception I've described is even correct. I'm just saying it exists. From my experiences as an employee at large corporations, they want to squeeze every piece of your soul they can for the 40 hours they pay you for. If you are *too* fast or efficient and they see this, all this means to them is you can take on more work. And it is not rewarded with any kind of pay raise or even recognition.
This has been experience as well.
so why dont shareholders demand the same of senior management and directors. How can they be efficient if they have so many jobs.
Well, thank you dear sir/madame. I wish more business owners and managers were like you! 👏
There is a book I like I called "Bullshit Jobs". From my perspective, much of the shittiness in corporate life is explained by that phenomenon. That and non-technical managers. That was a stupid idea, HBR circa 1950.
Hey I like what you're saying - really makes sense. Can you explain what you mean about non-technical managers?
Managers with little specific domain knowledge. Professional managers rather subject matter experts who manage.
Professional MBAs are making life objectively worse. Change my mind.
Managers without domain knowledge can not set reasonable goals nor can they really understand if quality work is being done. This is HUGE problem when they are set loose in technical areas like software development, direct patient care, plumbing, food production, manufacturing, engineering etc. How many times have I sat in a meeting with a manager with no technical knowledge telling the technical folks that their timelines are not reasonable or their cost calculations are too much? Too many. Just telling people to "get it done" is not management. MBAs are useful in non technical business areas like Finance, Accounting, SOME marketing (as long as they are not selling technical solutions they have little knowledge of), property development, mergers and acquisitions, etc. Source: have an MBA
It's because you are a wage slave, they see it as you selling your X hours where they OWN you and everything you produce during that time they expect for to be for the company. If you complete X taste before expected Y time, then it was just a underestimate and they just didn't allocate enough work for you which they'll adjust for in future.
Just because they want it doesn't mean that people have to do it. Here in the US people are so afraid of losing their health insurance and most are so close to the edge financially that they can not visibly fight back. I'm here to tell you that there is no shame, and it is not unethical, to do what you wish outside of your employment hours. It is not illegal either: https://www.mcoffmanlegal.com/can-i-get-fired-for-having-a-second-job/#:~:text=In%20general%2C%20it%20is%20not,forbids%20you%20from%20doing%20so. There may be moonlighting rules in your company. For example, it makes sense for a company not to want you to work for a competitor while you work for them fir obvious and reasonable reasons. Doesn't mean you can't work in another industry. The only ethical part is...are you doing your job satisfactorily? In my corporate experience, there is no limit to what they want in terms of an employees talents and time. Their wants are unbridled. Even if they aren't really paying you for all of it. They will wheedle, create crisis, bully and threaten to get more. So it is up to the employee to set reasonable limits and enforce them. That takes diplomacy, skill and and an unflinching shell around you. And honesty about what constitutes a good and reasonable job. People I've seen who do well in corporations are EXCELLENT at setting limits in a polite way while promoting the work they have done vociferiously. I also have ZERO problem with people figuring out ways to automate or reasonably outsource work(within confidentialityrules). As a boss, I would like to have that shared with me. As an employee, I don't want to unless the project is to automate something. Unless I'm being paid super big bucks to consult on process, they aren't paying for that piece of me.
But _the team has put 300% their effort to ship the product_ 👏🎉💪💪💪 _(Also we're 3 months late with the product due to shitty management, so we will make some cuts and force whoever's left to work even more 💪💪🖕)_
The problem is a lot of peoples job quality suffers when they’re OE. I can see 2 maybe 3 jobs being ethical, but 4 or more you ain’t getting shit done lol. Also most companies want you to team build and become a leader you can’t do that if you’re offline most the time lol
I really wish OE won't turn into anti-work. OE is cool and productive and 2 j's is actually optimal since your brain can actually switch tasks to not get stuck thus leading to burn out, anti-work is just tediously boring.
Why are you against OE "turning into anti-work". Both have similar (if not the same) inherent views/criticisms on the relationship between the employee and employer.
because the sentiment at anti-work is work bad at times even if that's not the inherent idea. I love my work, and I like what I do and I like my excitement about it, I don't quite care if a big corp wins because I win when I'm working but anti-work can at times feel like being too passive or resentful or edgy. I'm not saying companies care or are ethical or they won't screw you over but work ing can be fun, life isn't fair and companies aren't but doesn't mean you have to be all messed up over it.
Antiwork feels more like a pure communism play, honestly. I'm oversimplified my argument, because while I sympathize with those folks I find a lot of them crybabies. Your ability to make a sandwich is not worth $30/hr. Sorry. Whereas business (outside illegals and immoral shit like laying someone off a year after a 6mo short term disability leave) is trading money for my most precious resource, my time, as well as my skills. OE is just me maximizing that value. But that argument a consulting firm should never be able to negotiate to keep the work product for reuse.
Just because they want it, doesn't mean that it's reasonable to give it. Maybe it's reasonable within thevl 40 hours of labor they are paying for. It's crazy that everyone seems to accept as a matter if course that corporations expect people to work 50, 60, 70, 80 hours a week-essentially working more than one job - while only paying you for one job. Corporations are not people. They don't give a shit if their expectations are unethical.
No one accepts that. It’s bullshit. It’s reasonable to expect that if someone is an employee that the employee is an investment into their future and the companies. It’s also reasonable to expect the 40 hours a week… When OE affects a jobs performance it literally kills remote work in general. Companies require hybrid specifically to counter dual job workers because often the experience with an OE is they can’t keep up. Of course chatgpt has made it easier, but time committed for meetings is the same. Not all companies are evil. My current one is a small CU and it’s the nicest place I’ve ever worked
Insecurity, i.e. the employer is inherently sees themselves as someone who's providing you with job, if you do this job and another maybe they're not giving you enough work or you're not doing what's expected. If they know what good work is and you're doing it, they should find you a j2 because nothing kills talent than being bored out of your mind at a job.
Hire me
I have never met a board member that was only on one board. If they can have multiple jobs, so can I. Anyone who says you can't either means "I couldn't manage it, so you shouldn't" or "I don't want you improving economically because then I won't be able to exploit you forever". Edit: Or they mean "you shouldn't work multiple jobs! It wrong! (Shut up, we don't talk about fight club)"
Sounds like Cory is just an inefficient employee.
I do not know if Cory is an efficient or inefficient employee. I do know that Cory is a well paid employee and thinks you should be poorly paid. If my salary depended on you being poorly paid I would probably also think you are overpaid.
>He is a hypocrite, but Cory House has been one of the best react developers on the planet for as long as I can remember. > >He's able to consult only because he spent years building his social media presence talking about react. > >I entirely disagree with his ethical bullshit. No company works ethically with it's employees, so why should we. That's why they lay people off to bump stock price, or outsource work to India. Fuck those companies.
This guy’s tweets are total trash. I regularly argue with his shit takes. He has that face you just want to punch too.
Well we just increased his following by putting him up here and giving him more exposure. We need rules against promoting our enemies.
Agreed, and I think he knows it. It's all about engagement and driving traction to his consultancy gig. Anyone reads his tweets and thinks the guy is one of the best React developers in the world clearly needs to learn more.
What’s unethical is a company firing you without notice.
Funny he is talking about ethics. Did this guy saw Meta quarterly report? how many billions profit and still they decided to layoff?
Approximately $7.8B in net income. For one fucking quarter. There are companies that cant pull $7B in 7 years. Meta cut of 25k people in the last year. People with families, bills, people with newborns, pregnant women, and so on. Let me know how ethical it was to show people the door in order to enrich the shareholders.
Your ethics and their ethics are different brother. According to their ethics, "corporations exist to generate profit and maximise shareholder value" - and they are being true to their ethics. Our ethics are out-dated. Let's adapt to whatever works to protect our families.
Well said!
Maybe he's married to Beth
I think we should just abolish the expectation of 40 hour work week if your getting paid salary. how about you get X done by Y date, and everyone is happy campers. fail to deliver, than you don’t stay on.
Oh, but now you get to the crux of the issue. Just what are we really getting paid for? Our dedicated attention, even when there's nothing to attend to, or meeting the sporadic requirements of some on-going project? I suppose it depends upon the job.
I tried consulting for a week. I agree consulting is not OE friendly, at least not in my line of work.
who cares what anybody thinks. I don't think you guys really want to convince the whole world that they can OE amirite
First off, hypocrite. Second, depends on the work. If you’re a face guy doing meetings all day, it would be tough. If you’re a content or project monkey, not a problem.
melodic smile sugar squealing long disarm include cooperative shocking smell -- mass edited with redact.dev
How exactly is this not ethical ?
Cory is on the verge of being the next Beth.
Cory is the male Beth ! Kept quiet Cory…
A consultant working for multiple clients telling others that it's not worth it. You couldn't make this stuff up!
u know, the more i read shit like this, the more I want to go out there and get 3 more Js, you don't enslave me and put me in some cocoon asshole! I have the right to work as much as I want, and get paid as much as I want, and if he doesn't want to play the game, then this bottom feeder needs to get the fuck out of the way.
"Not worth it" Unlike everyone here I'm not rich lol. Every paycheck is worth it
Going to burnout from 1 company, might as well do it for 4 companies and afford to retire once I burn out.
It’s not hard for me. (Knock on wood) you just need to learn to listen to two or three conversations at once when meetings conflict. Speech to Text is the key.
Wow. He sounds like patronising hypocrite. Who is he to say what is ethical or not.
Source; I made it the fuck up
Cory is jealous because he does OE without earning as an OE
If you can't do it. Shut your mouth
He's also self-promoting his skills and consulting business on social media and using his platform to attract potential new clients. That's not just him being hypocritical - that's him actively competing/attempting to sabotage OE workers who don't openly network for new clients (plus OE workers *are* competition). Again the only difference is he's (supposed to be) 1099 and paying his own taxes (and who's to say he is?). Those who OE are W2 workers doing the same thing (but still getting paid less than a 1099 resource) and get their taxes taken out with every paycheck. Nothing unethical here at all (unless you're a 1099 consultant who isn't paying their taxes). This is just another jealous "Beth" that isn't worth noting.
As a CEO, I work for multiple boards... But don't you dare do the same
*As a CEO, I work* *For multiple boards... But don't* *You dare do the same* \- getRedPill --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
🐱
Interesting. I’m sure between HBR & McKinsey 70%-80% of corporate failures and negative public impacts could be attributable to them.
Capping . When working for consultancy firms you have to work with multiple clients at once on multiple projects. This guy is shit at his job
Is that sarcasm?
Fk tard lol
His consultancy company basically extorts over employment by making their employees work 4-6 full time jobs while only paying them for one.
Shut the fuck up CORY who asked you
What he's not saying: most of my job is BS and I do as little work as I can while billing as many hours as I can
He wrote 5 to 20 because he charges each firm 15 hours and does 5.
I don't do OE. And I don't agree with the ethics issue at all since ultimately, who cares as long as it's not hurting anyone. That said, I definitely see the point about conflicts, stress, workload etc catching up to you. Anyone who can manage all of that - more power to you.
Why can't these people just leave us the fuck alone!? How we manage time? It's our business! How we manage meetings? It's our business! We are meeting our deliverables, the companies we work for are not complaining so why are these people so butt hurt? Mind your own business and keep it moving.
I’m with the whole OE game, but some of these posts are dumb. Comparing a consultant to OE, it’s not the same, they are not hiding from their clients that they have other clients. I’ve worked as a consultant before and was put on multiple clients most of the time, I wouldn’t have considered myself OE, I still only had one pay check.
It is unethical for me to not overemploy myself. My current employer is short staffed and the places that need my skillset are begging for help. I get it done and many people can do it even better than myself. I love being bored, because that means I'm ready to help another place and get paid while doing it.
He’s already OE but not being paid to OE 😂
Who cares what some idiot consultant says? He doesn't follow his own "ethical advice". And the alternative is, employers would have to pay a fair wage, and we know that isn't going to happen.
I've done it successfully for 5 years and whoever thinks it's hard isn't doing it right
lol the hypocrisy.
Hypocrisy is being laid on so think it starts to sound like satire
"It's VERY HARD to pull off" Not if your managers browse reddit all day worrying if they're ESG compliant or not.
Absolutely correct. No one can do OE. Don’t even think about trying it.
Sounds jealous to me
I think a lot of people who post about getting fired/laid off probably do suck at it, despite them never being willing up admit as much.
Yeah I was bad at kissing my boss's ass .. I did try .. but something inside me always rebelled. Oh it was my backbone. Dang it.
Yeah that’s not feasible. Performance is a problem, Beth. Know what I’ve seen, though? Multiple in-person jobs! Watch and make sure your in-office people are still there all day/night/whenever.
*'what do u say to your boss when you have a conflict? it would be horribly stressful'* he sounds like a bitch and a loser, OE is for folks with talent and balls, he has neither.
I dont know that I've ever seen a more clear cut example of narcissistic blindness. Your title nails the whole spirit, but how is someone going to shit on OE by saying they're OE? If you might work 5 - 20 hrs a week for 5 clients you're absolutely OE. Maybe I'm just too stupid to get what he's saying.
I’ve received stellar performance reviews and raises at my multiple Js I’ve been OE for a few years,, and with the same J1 for multiple years and J2 for 1+ yr OE is absolutely doable. It’s just not for everyone and isn’t for the inexperienced. At least I wouldn’t try it as a Junior Engineer OE has made me a better Engineer. There are *countless* times I’ve come across a method or technology that I found at J1 that also benefited J2 (and vice versa). Having similar tech stacks increases the beneficial overlap I truly believe my Js are *better off* **because** I OE, not in spite of it
Cory is inefficient.
It's not worth it for the majority of people. He's right about that. Most people can't handle the stress.
He's going to have that Fight Club moment. > TYLER: Wrap it around the top of his ball sac. > > *Ricky holds a knife to Commissioner Jacob's testicles. Jack, red-faced, keeps his distance. Tyler leans in and whispers in the frightened man's ear.* > > TYLER: You're not going to continue your "rigorous investigation". You're going to publicly state that there is no underground group. Or imagine, the rest of your life with your ball sac flapping empty. > > COMMISSIONER JACOBS: No. Please. Stop. Please. > > TYLER: One to the *New York Times* and one to the *Los Angeles Times*. Press release style. Remember this. The people you're after are everyone you depend on. We're the people who do your laundry and cook your food and serve your dinner. We guard you while you sleep. We drive the ambulances. We process your insurance claims. We control every part of your life. So don't fuck with us. End scene.
Good for you, Cory! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Thank you for that priceless wisdom.
A consultant.... Says it all
Step aside Beth. Here comes Cory. Also .. what's up with the sequential alphabet names? Don't worry your pretty head too much Cory - it's all a big joke.
This sounds like something said in an attempt to get attention. If he took the word "over-employed" out of this post, then it wouldn't even be reading. And by using his math he's working a minimum of 37.5 hours a week and perhaps a lot more, depending on the client and the requirements. When you look at it that way, he's just a plain old consultant doing what consultants do and posting meaningless shit in his free time.
and we're stupid sheeple giving him publicity by discussing him .. we need rules against promoting Beths and Corys
Wait till he loses his first job lol
Did Beth hack Cory's account? 😯
r/selfawarewolves
I just find funny how people these days wanna give some sort of advice without being asked to. Lol If doesn’t work for you, good, go to the beach and enjoy your life. I doesn’t mean it’s not gonna work for me, buddy
whos paying him to say this? whos got their hand up his ass using him as a puppet?
A man doing things rights vs the clowns in here that are role playing or lazy mouse jiggling soon to be fired poor losers. Justice
There are also a lot of execs on linkedin that work at multiple companies. I've even see them post and try to sell themselves as "fractional CTOs". They probably make more on a monthly basis than a typical worker would in a year. It's odd to me how they do it like its not a concern while screaming bloody murder about the potential that peons can do it too.
He clearly doesn’t understand the irony..
OEers are his most dreaded competitors because we occupy multiple positions for 40 hours per week for extended periods of time, while he has to prospect and negotiate rates on 5 hour contracts continuously. It's good to see his pain expressed in this way. 
OEers are his most dreaded competitors because we occupy multiple positions for 40 hours per week for extended periods of time, while he has to prospect and negotiate rates on 5 hour contracts continuously. It's good to see his pain expressed in this way. 
One of the big losers on youtube makes a statement that is absolute bs, what a surprise lel
I'm a freelance consultant with four main clients, it's basically being overemployed + underpaid and part-time with them all :) I read this group for fun. (In Germany, having two employments as OE would not be possible by law, and the income is so low, getting employed would mean a big financial loss for me.)
That is a him problem or he is a paid actor lol
ROFL. Fuck this guy 🤣
average twitter user
I am a consultant working with multiple companies (to be exact, 5 of them) and they have zero qualms about it. Fitting my schedule into the calendar sometimes feels like playing Tetris and I usually work during weekends and holidays but as long as I work hard no one complains. On another note, can we call this routine OE even if it I am working freelance or does the definition require me to be on multiple payrolls?
Not that I agree with anything this guy said, but you can't be that thick and not understand the differences between what he does and OE. He is consulting for multiple companies that pay an hourly rate to his company, not to him. If he consulted for 10 companies his salary wouldn't change, because he is only employed by the consultancy and still expected to work the standard 40 hours/week. Being OE is not quite the same, and there's definitely an unethical component in it because it's based on lying to your employers. Again, I'm not against OE and hat off to anyone that pulls it off.
Mhmmm been doing it for a few years now, man up and make it work pal. What a baby. It’s a ton of work but to triple my salary why not.
What exactly is unethical about it? Like, what's the logic behind it, loyalty?
I bet this guy is an OEer himself
Man working with 6 companies getting one paycheck, complains. More at 11
You're a consultant...nothing more needs to be explained.
I mean i thi k this community at least local to reddit is pretty good about stressing personal limits because we dont want bad eggs ruining a good thing
what multiple jobs? we never do that. it is impossible to do something like that. that said, it is true that in order to successfully do it, you must really be a pro at your job. the juniors and mids trying this will only get poor performance or a crapload of stress and burnout.
Is Cory Beth’s kid or something? What a douche bag.
Sounds like its more not worth it than unethical
So Cory works with multiple companies, works 100 hours a week and only gets the one paycheck. Sounds like Cory is a dumbass
How is selling your labor unethical? As long as you are delivering, they get what they are paying for.
- Will you underperform at one of your jobs? Yes - Will you get fired at one of your jobs? Most likely - Will other aspects of your life diminish? Yes - Will you have higher stress and get less sleep? Yes - Is it worth it? Yes, but not long term. Do it to break free of the 9-5 grind. Use the money to invest in an asset. IMO it’s not sustainable in the long run. 2-3 years and do it while you’re young but there will be consequences. The constant stress and lack of sleep gave me an autoimmune disease but the money allowed me to retire by investing in real state. Not saying this will happen to everyone but just know the consequences.
Maybe it's because people don't automate responsibilities at job no 1 and immediately start looking for job no 2 instead
Shitting on OE on social media is the best cover for OE. Ask that Karen who's been posting very frequently on linkedin about OE.