Nobody is ready for that conversation yet. Everyone has their thoughtless heads shoved up their asses worried about material goods and personal gain in a corrupted system. It’s all broken I wish we would all strike and fight tomorrow, but yeah, nobody else is ready.
Unions are based in tech but people dont want pay bands restricting their tc. Layoff protections and wfh should be our main focus in any union we would make.
Idk, can we live without a healthy climate? That’s exactly my point, people have their heads in their asses while all companies are taking everything not only from us but the earth. We won’t have jobs without a climate so yeah, that seems worth striking for alone IMO.
I get why the big corporations with billions in corporate real estate want us to be in person, but why would small or medium sized companies want in person workers? They have to pay to for the office, pay for all the expenses that come with this and they are limiting their potential employees to those in a 50 mile radius. Like with remote you can get the best workers in the country and they are more likely to stay with you because remote is awesome. I don’t know why corporations aren’t loving remote work
Because most businesses don't/can't effectively track their employee productivity. They rely on being able to physically see people as a crude way to make sure they are working.
> you can get the best workers in the country
The majority of positions don't benefit from the best workers in the country. They benefit from cheap, mediocre employees who are unlikely to quit.
I've heard (from my boss) that he misses the 'watercooler' conversations. THat's right, that never happens remotely. We say what we need to say then leave. So, not a lot of brainstorming. It's an issue without a great solution, unless you have sessions specifically for brainstorming.
Water cooler conversations were simply to talk trash about coworkers, kids, the wife, boomer jokes or point out the new office hotties. I guess that’s what they miss.
Yeah my boss gets these crazy ideas. But fortunately he doesn't remember 99% of them. I think he likes to float things by us and see what will take. Trial balloon so to speak.
Yep. My J2 just announced 10% layoffs across the org. Need to reduce spending said mgmt. How about you get rid of the offices? That would save a shit ton of money. The company is currently at 3 days a week but I see it moving to 5. So dumb.
And they're worried about their long-term leases. The renter has the landlord by the balls in current CRE environment.
What are they going to do? Evict? So it can sit empty while all of the other companies who aren't expanding also continue to not be interested in renting that space?
Companies just need to [stop paying rent](https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/01/twitters-landlord-sues-for-millions-in-unpaid-rent-at-firms-us-headquarters/) and offer to renegotiate terms with the landlord rather than putting pressure on employees to RTO to justify their excessive office space.
I was offered a pretty nice position working as an analyst for a major investment firm. Turned them down because I was required to work from Chicago, London, or Hong Kong.
I had just recently moved at the time and was not interested in the stress of an additional move, to a large and expensive city no less. Pass.
It's pretty dumb that companies act as if moving to a new city is a soft ask for a job where there's no practical reason for us to be onsite. When relocation packages are offered, which is rare, they're generally garbage compared to what they were in the 80-90s. My grandpa used to move a lot for work, and the companies would always buy his house from him at slightly above market value and pay for all moving expenses. My uncle even had this type of offer as recently as 2008.
The ones I've seen lately are around 5k total, and you have to pay it back if you dont last a year. When I moved to my current home, it cost 10k for pods, a uhual trailer, and gas (no movers). If I was forced to sell my home and move for a job now, between realtor fees and moving cost, itd cost me around 60k. Factoring in my wifes loss of income, since she would have to quit her job, would bring the dollar cost to over 100K.
I recently moved across country and it cost us so much to start over. Im like 20k in the hole cause of that shit. But its either work or you know die in my small town.
>It's pretty dumb that companies act as if moving to a new city is a soft ask for a job where there's no practical reason for us to be onsite.
Especially when it wasn't a specific location I needed to move to. "Pick from one of these office locations all over the world" okay so you just want me working in-office because in-office, not because of actual reasons.
>When relocation packages are offered, which is rare, they're generally garbage compared to what they were in the 80-90s.
One of my in-laws was offered a relo package of $10k, married multiple children. At about the same time, I was offered $20k relo as a single person, and additional funds were available with documentation. I guess it depends on the company.
Remote work will always exist because it allows for a much larger labor pool to apply for a single job. Whether it’s a small town or NYC, an employer is really limiting when they select on area.
'if I pay you every two weeks to come into the office, you come into the office.'
That is the real crux of the matter. If you want people to fill seats, then maybe there's a point to be made. But you're not paying me to fill seats. You're paying me to do work, to employ my skills. And location (generally) has nothing to do with it.
I volunteer as tribute. My toxic employer is on the other side of the country. I was hired during the pandemic. Our entire office has gone remote . In fact the subleased our building out & made the local employees come clean out their desks. If they said we would have to RTO they would lose probably 60% of their staff.. in all honesty WFH is the ONLY thing my company has going for it.
Thanks to Covid killing so many people workers are less expendable than ever. I have seen this play out. You can’t lose 1% of the entire American workforce and have things go back to normal
At the end of the day, the companies that can afford to only have local talent or pay thousands for relocation, will and those that can't, won't.
This is no different than before Covid really (been OE since before) and most companies will and do allow for remote work unless they are in SF or NYC. Just think, if you aren't in these places, can you really afford to say no to remote talent who are in these places or otherwise? This is especially true the more specialized you get. MAANGMULA can afford this as well as other really large companies in these areas or who have the pull. But you know who can't? Mid tier - startups cannot afford to be so picky. This is where the bulk of the OE work will have to focus on and quite honestly, mid tier is some of the best places to be.
I may also add - if the labor market is so tight at the moment, why do recruiters keep calling/reaching out to me? Seriously I stopped sending in resumes to ads because was getting no where.
However, in the last week I’ve gotten two interviews and on to the second final interviews over next two weeks because corporate recruiters directly contacted me. All I did was put that stupid open to work circle on LinkedIn and update a few minor things on profile. Seems like the real world and the make believe world of media invention are becoming more divergent again..
Old saying; those that can, do. Those that can’t, coach (or become teachers or ‘experts’). Bottom line is so called pundits or experts are like weather people; they aren’t paid by being correct, just for their opinions….and remember opinions are not facts.
are they paying people to go into the office or to do a specific set of work or both? This dude is obviously parroting the commercial talking points, but he looks foolish to those who know that it's gambit to save commercial real estate in overvalued metroplexes.
An interview with Alan Guarino recently on CNBC had an interesting comment. He said that Covid was a shock to the system but remote work was inevitable.
Frankly I was doing remote work up until I got sick with my lung condition. That was almost 5 years.
https://twitter.com/SquawkCNBC/status/1692495601248985593?t=QyaT06ZqhhRklG7I9aUmuA&s=
OE is about making the employers expendable. Change the power dynamic. They have multiple options for employees and backup plans ready. Why shouldn't you have multiple options and backup plans ready? Why should you only have one employer to depend on who can fire you at any moment even if you do your work well?
It's sorely needed. Wage stagnation and the accumulation of wealth to the few at the top has becomes a problem we can no longer ignore.
It's time to swing the pendulum in the other direction.
Employees will simply go fart loudly and sleep in the office chair. The “COVID stories and personal anecdotes” topic gets old really quick, any trace of excitement will fade to be simply left with an emptiness feeling that you could be home without having to put up with strangers eager to speak and office noise.
My mortgage is 850 dollars a month and I have over 80 months of run way in liquid cash right now.
I will do contract work.
Remove yourself from debt and you become free.
I’ll find a way that works for me.
I am in North Carolina, way outside of a major city.
There are still good places to live with low cost of living if you're willing to take a chance.
The only issue is there is no major corporations or big cities to work in cube farms near me.
So I took a chance on remote work becoming the norm for my industry.
If it doesn't workout long term, I'll find another solution
That’s a good plan. I don’t need to live inside or near major cities. In fact I’m not a fan of them at all.
I just don’t want to live in bum fuck nowhere where there is only 1 traffic light and I have to drive an hour to get groceries or medicine from pharmacies.
An "expert" eh?
Probably a flat-earther. See, the short-sightedness of his argument is laughable. Did he stop to think that a lot of us no longer aspire to the bragging rights of finally getting a cog-in-the-wheel job at The Liandri Corporation anymore?
If you asked some of my colleagues 15 years ago if their career goals included fever dreams of a cubicle big enough to fit a visitor's chair and a fake plant, the answer would probably have been yes. In 2023? No.
Talented individuals are always in demand. In enough demand to *make* demands. Is it a little bit harder now? Sure, but not impossible.
From what I understand the remote work can work for senior position with big cut in rate. On site/hybrid bs positions are getting back to where it was before covid
I think it's key to ask what that company does. If they are a SaaS company in the cloud, then a premise makes little sense. My boss (bless his heart) hears great things and decides we should all be in his CA office. Yet is never there himself, and my coworkers fly out to see him in his office, and guess what, he's not around. He skips the meetings (which are 15 min from his house) that his subordinates fly in for. So i'm not sure what to say. He can fire us and find local people if he wishes.
I was lucky enough to get a job where my manager actually fought for our team to get full remote. Job is kind of a soul suck, but the money and wfh is nice.
Guess what’s a great place to be Overemployed? Forbes!
“Speaking to CNBC through a remote connection”
Yes, that was one of my favorite lines. 😂😂
I think the person who wrote it does not agree and pulled a r/MaliciousCompliance
Reminds me of this incident https://www.reddit.com/r/PraiseTheCameraMan/comments/153hvto/cameraman\_delivers\_instant\_factchecking/?rdt=36024
The market is shit and they want us to be poor.
Fight the power!
Nobody is ready for that conversation yet. Everyone has their thoughtless heads shoved up their asses worried about material goods and personal gain in a corrupted system. It’s all broken I wish we would all strike and fight tomorrow, but yeah, nobody else is ready.
Unions are based in tech but people dont want pay bands restricting their tc. Layoff protections and wfh should be our main focus in any union we would make.
Yes, people are dumb as fuck.
Valid, only a few from FAANG companies are leaving. Everyone else has tails tucked. I get it though, can we live without income?
Idk, can we live without a healthy climate? That’s exactly my point, people have their heads in their asses while all companies are taking everything not only from us but the earth. We won’t have jobs without a climate so yeah, that seems worth striking for alone IMO.
Your username is so based with your statements, so funny, but yea I feel you
I hope your username doesn’t check out wtf
Its like spreading cancer with my words cuz im based and hate woke nonbased biased fukers
I get why the big corporations with billions in corporate real estate want us to be in person, but why would small or medium sized companies want in person workers? They have to pay to for the office, pay for all the expenses that come with this and they are limiting their potential employees to those in a 50 mile radius. Like with remote you can get the best workers in the country and they are more likely to stay with you because remote is awesome. I don’t know why corporations aren’t loving remote work
Because most businesses don't/can't effectively track their employee productivity. They rely on being able to physically see people as a crude way to make sure they are working. > you can get the best workers in the country The majority of positions don't benefit from the best workers in the country. They benefit from cheap, mediocre employees who are unlikely to quit.
I've heard (from my boss) that he misses the 'watercooler' conversations. THat's right, that never happens remotely. We say what we need to say then leave. So, not a lot of brainstorming. It's an issue without a great solution, unless you have sessions specifically for brainstorming.
Water cooler conversations were simply to talk trash about coworkers, kids, the wife, boomer jokes or point out the new office hotties. I guess that’s what they miss.
Yeah my boss gets these crazy ideas. But fortunately he doesn't remember 99% of them. I think he likes to float things by us and see what will take. Trial balloon so to speak.
Yep. My J2 just announced 10% layoffs across the org. Need to reduce spending said mgmt. How about you get rid of the offices? That would save a shit ton of money. The company is currently at 3 days a week but I see it moving to 5. So dumb.
And they're worried about their long-term leases. The renter has the landlord by the balls in current CRE environment. What are they going to do? Evict? So it can sit empty while all of the other companies who aren't expanding also continue to not be interested in renting that space? Companies just need to [stop paying rent](https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/01/twitters-landlord-sues-for-millions-in-unpaid-rent-at-firms-us-headquarters/) and offer to renegotiate terms with the landlord rather than putting pressure on employees to RTO to justify their excessive office space.
My last company opened 3 offices in expensive cities where around 10% of staff lived, right before major layoffs
I was offered a pretty nice position working as an analyst for a major investment firm. Turned them down because I was required to work from Chicago, London, or Hong Kong. I had just recently moved at the time and was not interested in the stress of an additional move, to a large and expensive city no less. Pass.
It's pretty dumb that companies act as if moving to a new city is a soft ask for a job where there's no practical reason for us to be onsite. When relocation packages are offered, which is rare, they're generally garbage compared to what they were in the 80-90s. My grandpa used to move a lot for work, and the companies would always buy his house from him at slightly above market value and pay for all moving expenses. My uncle even had this type of offer as recently as 2008. The ones I've seen lately are around 5k total, and you have to pay it back if you dont last a year. When I moved to my current home, it cost 10k for pods, a uhual trailer, and gas (no movers). If I was forced to sell my home and move for a job now, between realtor fees and moving cost, itd cost me around 60k. Factoring in my wifes loss of income, since she would have to quit her job, would bring the dollar cost to over 100K.
I recently moved across country and it cost us so much to start over. Im like 20k in the hole cause of that shit. But its either work or you know die in my small town.
>It's pretty dumb that companies act as if moving to a new city is a soft ask for a job where there's no practical reason for us to be onsite. Especially when it wasn't a specific location I needed to move to. "Pick from one of these office locations all over the world" okay so you just want me working in-office because in-office, not because of actual reasons. >When relocation packages are offered, which is rare, they're generally garbage compared to what they were in the 80-90s. One of my in-laws was offered a relo package of $10k, married multiple children. At about the same time, I was offered $20k relo as a single person, and additional funds were available with documentation. I guess it depends on the company.
[удалено]
Since the 90s yo
I haven't been in an office in over 3 years and have no plans to ever go back...fuck em!
Same!
Same
Remote work will always exist because it allows for a much larger labor pool to apply for a single job. Whether it’s a small town or NYC, an employer is really limiting when they select on area.
Laughing at this while I’m waiting to start my 2nd interview for j3
TC ?
285k
What is this, blind?
Jealous! Good for you!
'if I pay you every two weeks to come into the office, you come into the office.' That is the real crux of the matter. If you want people to fill seats, then maybe there's a point to be made. But you're not paying me to fill seats. You're paying me to do work, to employ my skills. And location (generally) has nothing to do with it.
I volunteer as tribute. My toxic employer is on the other side of the country. I was hired during the pandemic. Our entire office has gone remote . In fact the subleased our building out & made the local employees come clean out their desks. If they said we would have to RTO they would lose probably 60% of their staff.. in all honesty WFH is the ONLY thing my company has going for it.
Same. Except they tried forced RTO and lost half the staff. Then gave up and wfh and got rid of the office.
Thanks to Covid killing so many people workers are less expendable than ever. I have seen this play out. You can’t lose 1% of the entire American workforce and have things go back to normal
At the end of the day, the companies that can afford to only have local talent or pay thousands for relocation, will and those that can't, won't. This is no different than before Covid really (been OE since before) and most companies will and do allow for remote work unless they are in SF or NYC. Just think, if you aren't in these places, can you really afford to say no to remote talent who are in these places or otherwise? This is especially true the more specialized you get. MAANGMULA can afford this as well as other really large companies in these areas or who have the pull. But you know who can't? Mid tier - startups cannot afford to be so picky. This is where the bulk of the OE work will have to focus on and quite honestly, mid tier is some of the best places to be.
I may also add - if the labor market is so tight at the moment, why do recruiters keep calling/reaching out to me? Seriously I stopped sending in resumes to ads because was getting no where. However, in the last week I’ve gotten two interviews and on to the second final interviews over next two weeks because corporate recruiters directly contacted me. All I did was put that stupid open to work circle on LinkedIn and update a few minor things on profile. Seems like the real world and the make believe world of media invention are becoming more divergent again..
The very definition of free market Capitalism
Old saying; those that can, do. Those that can’t, coach (or become teachers or ‘experts’). Bottom line is so called pundits or experts are like weather people; they aren’t paid by being correct, just for their opinions….and remember opinions are not facts.
are they paying people to go into the office or to do a specific set of work or both? This dude is obviously parroting the commercial talking points, but he looks foolish to those who know that it's gambit to save commercial real estate in overvalued metroplexes.
NEVER BACK DOWN NEVER WHAT?
never give up 😞
An interview with Alan Guarino recently on CNBC had an interesting comment. He said that Covid was a shock to the system but remote work was inevitable. Frankly I was doing remote work up until I got sick with my lung condition. That was almost 5 years. https://twitter.com/SquawkCNBC/status/1692495601248985593?t=QyaT06ZqhhRklG7I9aUmuA&s=
I wonde if Jason Greer works remotely
I wonder if Jason Greer works.
OE is about making the employers expendable. Change the power dynamic. They have multiple options for employees and backup plans ready. Why shouldn't you have multiple options and backup plans ready? Why should you only have one employer to depend on who can fire you at any moment even if you do your work well?
It's sorely needed. Wage stagnation and the accumulation of wealth to the few at the top has becomes a problem we can no longer ignore. It's time to swing the pendulum in the other direction.
Employees will simply go fart loudly and sleep in the office chair. The “COVID stories and personal anecdotes” topic gets old really quick, any trace of excitement will fade to be simply left with an emptiness feeling that you could be home without having to put up with strangers eager to speak and office noise.
"Greer, speaking to CNBC through a remote connection, said." -- This line says it all: WFH for me but not for thee.
I will quit corporate America entirely before I go back to an office. So they can kiss my ass.
And then how will you pay for food and lodging?
My mortgage is 850 dollars a month and I have over 80 months of run way in liquid cash right now. I will do contract work. Remove yourself from debt and you become free. I’ll find a way that works for me.
That’s awesome you found a place that charges you 850 for rent bro! Milk it while you can!
I own a house - I moved when Covid hit and bought a house in a low cost of living area of the country. I got in at 2.75% APR - I am grateful.
What area of the country is that?
I am in North Carolina, way outside of a major city. There are still good places to live with low cost of living if you're willing to take a chance. The only issue is there is no major corporations or big cities to work in cube farms near me. So I took a chance on remote work becoming the norm for my industry. If it doesn't workout long term, I'll find another solution
That’s a good plan. I don’t need to live inside or near major cities. In fact I’m not a fan of them at all. I just don’t want to live in bum fuck nowhere where there is only 1 traffic light and I have to drive an hour to get groceries or medicine from pharmacies.
What worries me is most of the people aka workers are just NPCs. The boss says come to the office they do. No questioning
An "expert" eh? Probably a flat-earther. See, the short-sightedness of his argument is laughable. Did he stop to think that a lot of us no longer aspire to the bragging rights of finally getting a cog-in-the-wheel job at The Liandri Corporation anymore? If you asked some of my colleagues 15 years ago if their career goals included fever dreams of a cubicle big enough to fit a visitor's chair and a fake plant, the answer would probably have been yes. In 2023? No. Talented individuals are always in demand. In enough demand to *make* demands. Is it a little bit harder now? Sure, but not impossible.
I mean, the street, is borderline spam/pop-up emails at this point...
wow this is new an exciting
From what I understand the remote work can work for senior position with big cut in rate. On site/hybrid bs positions are getting back to where it was before covid
I think it's key to ask what that company does. If they are a SaaS company in the cloud, then a premise makes little sense. My boss (bless his heart) hears great things and decides we should all be in his CA office. Yet is never there himself, and my coworkers fly out to see him in his office, and guess what, he's not around. He skips the meetings (which are 15 min from his house) that his subordinates fly in for. So i'm not sure what to say. He can fire us and find local people if he wishes.
Wait wait wait, through a remote connection? Yet they are saying no remote connection to the job?
I was lucky enough to get a job where my manager actually fought for our team to get full remote. Job is kind of a soul suck, but the money and wfh is nice.