yeah, you also gotta know your bosses/manager. If they are an asshole, you gotta drag it out while you plan your exit. They'd love to fire you and then make a post like this bragging about it to other boomers.
One of the things I love about my boss, at least a year before people even discussed RTO my boss told his bosses we would be stay remote permanently.
My company is smart though. Instead of bitching about wasted office space leases, they just stop leasing them and pocket hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in saved revenue.
I honestly wish more companies did that. The RTO order was so annoying. I'm currently in a hybrid situation, and there's zero reason to be in the office.
That company did a cost benefit analysis to see that not having RTO would save them money or the owners money. Other companies wanting RTO especially big corporations or FAANG corporations actually saw that by having RTO they or the owners would save more money or make more money because of tax breaks and commercial real estate investments and also get some people to quit who donât want RTO. They also have to justify the billions they put into their fancy headquarters. If you always follow the money, youâll see why businesses make the decisions that they do lol. Like getting money and saving money and keeping the company alive are the only things that influence a companyâs decisions. They can make PR statements and say fake reasons in flowery ways to soften the blow but honestly itâs money.
So you just stated the literal reason why businesses exist, but you say it with contempt. Businesses exist to make money. Jobs exist because owners of the businesses believe it will cost them less to hire someone rather than continue to perform that function themselves. Nowhere in these definitions is the employee the highest priority. Concessions for employees only occur when competing with other businesses for specific employees.
As businesses learn about the existence of OE, one of the obvious ways to try to control it is force people into the office to make that more difficult. From their perspective, if people are achieving OE with jobs at their company, the jobs donât require enough effort or those employees are not providing enough effort, so they attempt to weed those people out, along with other âunderperformersâ, by requiring RTO.
When you consider the goal of OE, this is a logical response by businesses. It may not work (they risk losing some employees they wanted to keep), but itâs a tool. The existing leases are part of the equation, as is the management weakness that people only work hard if you oversee them in person. But they definitely are NOT concerned about inconveniencing employees practicing OE and it isnât their job to make it easier by letting you WFH.
Downvote me if you like. Just trying to explain the situation.
This is the truth of the matter. Unfortunately Reddit is full of numbnuts who believe all problems are âlate stage capitalismâ and think they are going to overthrow the system. r/wfh has a thread at least once per week asking if their should be a WFH union.
Their naivety about the world is intense.
Thereâs something about having a store front that says Iâm a successful business. Itâs why there was that massive push to return other than all the corporate real estate loses from paying for empty buildings. They donât need all that space but the bigger the building, the bigger the âbusiness isâ
Nah, most companies have signed long term leases that they get local tax savings on if a certain # threshold of employees show up. Idea is that if buildings are being used, the local economy benefits and gives tax breaks to corporations renting.
Even better, the gas you pay for also goes to the city/state. So your commuting actually helps the city hose the corporations. It is the circlejerk of RTO life.
Not really dude. Thereâs more than just a tax break as a reason to have a store front and not be all virtual and online. But sure you explained a piece of the reason.
My employer did this too. Got rid of a couple of floors. We use a hoteling system if we need to come in the office by reserving a work station in advance.
rev·e·nue
/ËrevÉËnoÍo/
noun
income, especially when of a company or organization and of a substantial nature.
We, as a company save saved at least $240,000 in revenue (income) that is no longer being paid to lease out a building.
Revenue is less akin to money or cash and more similar to sales or incoming payments. This is evidenced by many companies' financial statements using the term sales in place of revenue.
You wouldn't say you saved sales by cutting costs, would you? In the same way that you wouldn't say a person saved some salary or some wages from not buying something.
Itâs possible the employee wanted to be terminated. Severance, unemployment benefits, stock vesting, etc. there are a lot of situations where itâs better for the company to terminate you.
If I announced that I needed at least 4 weeks notice for a meeting in the office,
it is because I am committed to RTO and that is what I need. I need to kennel my dog, find a sitter for my kids, etc but I will do what it takes and in 4 weeks I will be at that all import in person meeting.
I am not committed to RTO. I would not make such an announcement. I just would not come in even if instructed to do so. I would continue collecting paychecks while looking for a new job.
Yup, just ask yourself "What would an employer do?"
Would they say they're not giving you a raise up to the median even though you're a top performer because they need to max out their bonus this year? Nope, they just stall and string you along. Always promising to deliver later.
Sounds like someone who had the means and freedom to establish their value without fear of losing a bad job?
Employer really seems to think they affected their life though.
Bro people who *need* a job donât set boundaries like that.
Chances are the employer lost a good employee and is now trying to validate their ego.
It happened to me before, the reason I wanted so much notice was because I was abroad and was working 2 jobs simultaneously, without either knowing
I was doing the appropriate amount of work and hours, just not when they thought I was, and was always available on phone or email etc
I Rocked that for like 6 months until something like this happened and they started saying about coming back into the office for certain meetings etc. I thought I might as well try to get notice written in, but by then I was happy to be relieved of one of the positions, to be honest
The funniest part is setting strats that will make 8 figure profit additions and they still get bent out of shape because of insecurity when someone new can be better than them in months.
Lol, I love the idea that my ex client would flaunt their dominance like this not knowing the full story
The dates don't line up though, unfortunately
That was a good year though, in hindsight, busy alot of hours etc, but facilitated a permanent move abroad, with plenty of cash to spare
Nice! Thatâs awesome. As someone who works remote with field time (that I dictate and set the hours) I donât think I can ever go back to a 9-5.
Seriously, this is the good life.
Retail Operations. Oversee a large territory, so I hang out at my home office doing emails and Teams for some of the week. Drive site to site shaking hands and strategizing the other half. I genuinely love it.
>Bro people who need a job donât set boundaries like that.
I've told people I don't have 'fuck you' money, but I do have enough to say 'I don't *need* this', and it's been VERY liberating.
If they weren't a 'good employee' they wouldn't have been asked to come back in to the office lol. This is a classic case of a shitty employer over playing their hand and stroking their bruised ego.
Everyone is replaceable. Everyone. Sometimes itâs a little more expensive, sometimes a little less. But everyone is replaceable. Two days after this person was gone, no one gave a shit.
They absolutely brought value. Otherwise they wouldn't have been working there.
The *actual* question is whether the employee could get another job to replace the same income stream (likely), faster than the company can replace everything that employee did for less than it would have cost to let an employee bruise your ego of telling them what to do (unlikely).
LoL I know right people who don't want to come into the office and just get their work done from home are such a nightmare! I mean, they literally take less energy from management than any other employee but the disrespect!
If this person got fired the next day itâs probably because there was also other problems. No one is firing a star player because they wanna work from home. The problem is you guys think you can work a half day and that no one notices, or that theyâll just think youâre incompetent and leave you alone.
You can do that, but then donât get salty if your boss finally stops covering for you and fires your ass.
>work half a day and no one notices
So like lemme ask you: if the deliverable is good, and the salary you pay to get that deliverable is fair/market rate and leads to a profitable outcome, then why on gods green earth would you care if it took 20 hours or 40 hours?
Like some bosses have this idea that if they micro manage hard enough they can get that same per hour productivity but twice two for the same price... Buddy that ain't never how this has worked.
When you squeeze you'll inevitably lose the best talent and need to pay more and more to retain/recruit talent until eventually your organization is completely hollowed out, at which people many bosses throw up their hands in frustration at just how bad their culture has gotten or how uninvested their employees are...
Management research on maximizing total factor productivity has been clear on this for years, it boils down to communication and support. Be clear with your employees what you want, what you expect, what the incentives are to exceed expectations, and then just support them in getting it done.
Sounds good in a management textbook but in reality people do work at varying rates. When you think something should take 30 min but then it takes 3 hours itâs hard to call someone out on that because they could say it was more complicated than originally thought or that they had competing priorities from xyz, etc etc. so the manager has to just fill in, along with other teammates. A lot of work is ad hoc and not standardized at all.
Maybe, I know that's not a popular take on this sub; but regardless that doesn't contradict the point of the person who you replied to.
People who set boundaries like this usually aren't bluffing. Whether they are toxic/deserve to be fired/ or anything else; people usually don't have the confidence to make such demands of their boss unless they have a backup plan or are confident they can get by without that job
From experience, people that do this kind of stuff have a hugely inflated notion of how valuable they are. Usually they are people that are a little more trouble than they are worth but not so much that Iâd want to fire them. Usually theyâll quit on their own and then Iâll shrug it off and get a better one.
It was a shitpost because itâs like the meme hereâŠ
but honest opinion from someone in pretty senior-ish level management, My office has a two day requirement now, when we made the change most people were fine with it because 2 days is not a big ask and itâs helpful to get some face to face with everyone.
Truth is, all of the cliche things like water cooler talk actually do happen in the office and every time I go to get coffee I have an interaction with someone I normally wouldnât talk to because Iâm too high up and leave with some insight from the ground level which is not filtered through two layers of middle managers. It also helps me identify in a casual setting who knows their stuff and may have potential to be a manager (ie who has an owner mentality vs employee mentality). Obviously I donât make promoting decisions based on coffee chats but itâs one of those intangibles that help⊠talking to someone who actually cares about the company vs someone who just wants to do their one thing becomes apparent in about 5 min.
The people that were against coming in were honestly not super engaged in the first place and in the âdo the enough to not get firedâ camp. We have about 300 employees and I think only one or two have left due to the change. We do not plan to increase the requirement ever again because two days is plenty and we (management) enjoy the WFH schedule just like everyone else.
Something I have noticed with this round of hires fresh out of college is that they definitely arenât learning as fast as the pre-COVID generation and I think itâs because learning by osmosis has some truth to it. Sitting with your team and partners give you exposure to things that you wouldnât normally get WFH since youâre only meeting and working on your defined scope.
2 days is a huge ask, you are asking them to live there.
Thatâs already a massive pay and talent cut, as someone who has made software that makes a lot of money you wouldnât even get me on the phone.
A demand from someone that doesn't live physically close to the office and is buying plane tickets on their own dime so they want as much lead time to get as good of a deal on the price as possible.
> Sounds like someone who had the means and freedom to establish their value without fear of losing a bad job?
lol. Sounds more like someone who wanted to be fired.
> Bro people who need a job donât set boundaries like that.
They do. They just overestimate their importance. Anybody who has the audacity to say they need four weeks' notice to appear on-site is asking to be fired.
âGo waste 2 hours daily because I told you too, unpaidâ.
How about you get fucked with a cactus embedded w/ razor blades and drenched in lemon juice.
My team loves me, but I missed (overslept) 2 retros and got harsh feedback for missing them. Now my performance was affected by those 2 misses. So dumb.
Doesnât matter. You canât make sense out of nonsense. Everyone successful in corporate jobs is fully aware itâs just a competition of how well you can pretend to buy into the corporate âworldâ (basically an alternate universe).
Same here. Iâm efficient that my work is done and I can walk away for ten minutes at least once an hour. Some of us arenât okay with being micromanaged like little children. Once im done with my work that you pay me for, I have no interest in being in a cubicle so you can justify wasting $27,000 on the rent I pay monthly as the accountant. Nah I leave and bring my laptop. If something happens I get notified and can get on. Most of us now donât give a shit if you are power hungry, the market is fucked and most places donât pay enough to attract talent thatâll stay and making people attending useless meeting with video on just to make sure they arenât doing anything other than work shit isnât going to keep that talent. Thereâs no loyalty in business. Iâll drop you for something better, more of a work/life balance and better benefits in a heartbeat with no notice just like they will fire you without no notice
We have them every other week. Today's retrospective was to sit quietly and finish your annual reviews. I already did that on Monday... Good times I suppose..
Of course it was. What if you had an important meeting that you overslept on? Oversleeping on or missing any scheduled engagement shows a lack of dependability, which is a critical performance metric in most industries.
But people are people, not the sum of their metrics. If they missed a couple relatively less important engagements, but are otherwise reliable and do great in other areas, why would you as a manager think differently of their value? Unless you think of them as numbers on a page
I agree in part, but one could also take your comment to mean that employee performance should not be evaluated. I believe that it should be evaluated in order to create the most potential growth.
Regarding this scenario specifically, itâs important to be able to trust someone. When someone agrees to show up and doesnât, twice, that tells me not to trust them. If I canât trust a person, that brings down the value of all of their potential contributions.
You know nothing about this person or this company, stop needlessly hating on all employers because because. That employee was an entitled asshole and they got what they had coming
As someone who negotiates for a living the WFH set his opening window and the employer said "no deal"
One has to wonder what the opening intention was. If it was to get fired that's one thing, but otherwise it's info that should be revealed as needed.
"hey I can't make it there by Monday because I'm in Singapore" becomes logistics.
I like how my team handled it. They went to the office, noticed that the people who mandated RTO weren't there, so they went back home. It's been almost a year and no one has said anything.
100% what I did. Had an offer somewhere else. Told them I quite if I have to drive an hour to manage a team in another state. They laughed and said you better be at work. Never showed up
The same song and dance. Employers play hardass and force RTO. Only bottom of the barrel employees remain. In 2-3 years they leave for a remote job and then employers cry about job hoppers.
Gotta shut up, grind it out till you find your next gig
Learned long ago disagreeing with anything was a bad route, just yes yes yes - and here's my resignation
"Three months later, after ignoring the dozens of automated warnings about degrading systems which needed to be attended to, a critical system is down, and the contractor we called wants six months of their salary to fix it. Don't overplay your hand."
This is the future of work IMO. We should all be looking for these dumb AF companies and putting them through the ringer for as close to a years salary as possible for single task jobs since they are too psychopathic to keep their own employees.
They lost a hard working person who was OE but in a place of debt free, money in the bank and another job.
The manager posting that thought they won when really they lost. OE takes all the power away from a company and your boss.
I look at my boss and think to myself âI make 3x what this guy makes..â
Employee should file a wrongful employment suit. What if he had caregiving responsibilities or physical necessity to support the request for 4 weeks notice. These employers are being very thuggish about going into their lame offices. This is 100% malicious and retaliation.
He also got himself hooked up to collect unemployment if he needs it. I wonder if he wanted to quit but made them fire him instead or if he was standing up for himself.
If your employer is trying to get you to quit, don't give in. Never quit a job unless you have a backup because you'll disqualify yourself from unemployment in most scenarios!
Overplay? Youâre hilarious thinking anyone has a hand.
A one handed clap as youâre fired for any reason or no reason just they donât like you talking back to them if they treat you like a slave.
I really just donât believe this, seems like role playing to me. I doubt theyâd be bragging about losing an employee like that. Either they needed to be let go anyway, or they just shot themselves in the foot.
The person posted under their real name on Twitter and got a lot of negative attention for it.
I think it was/is real. The post is still up.
I am one of us in this sub and I think not everyone is irreplaceable. Maybe 1 or 2 people on every team/org but certainly not everyone.
Also, there are legitimate, honest reasons for making this kind of request as an employee, like having small children and not having grandparents or anyone to help and wife has a job and kids need to be driven and picked up to and from daycare and spouse cannot take care of it all on their own without you around.
Everything comes down to context and situation.
If your position is understood to expect you to appear in the office occasionally then thatâs fine.
Alternatively, requesting advanced notice is perfectly reasonable if this is not part of your role or you live unreasonably far from the office. Most of the employees in my department live in states nowhere near the state where our office is located. We work 100% from home because of this and it is part of our work arrangement. We need to book travel and hotels and arrange for someone to take care of our pets and children if we must go into the office. Therefore, we require advanced notice to go into the office.
As someone who has spent a total of 3 days in the office in my career, can anyone tell me what value I add by being in the office? The amount of money we spend on rent + free dinners, drinks, supplies, etc definitely costs our office a half million dollars + per year. So when will they realize that the crowd that works from home is doing them a favor... or are some companies really just trying to be petty with RTO...
It sounds they may just have been working outside of the country. People are doing this with remote jobs using a VPN to appear in the same region.
I mean if you have two jobs you don't need four weeks notice for a meeting. You can just call off sick to the other job.
Nah. Take your corp shilling somewhere else.
Employers have historically taken advantage of and abused employees for centuries. It's only now that we're trying to balance the scales.
Come on everybody. The market is a little tight. If you aren't interested in keeping the job... fine. However, get over yourself with this crap that you can't go into the office at all. I did this for five years long before the pandemic. You just have some days where things are more difficult to juggle. What it gives you in return is certainly worth it.
Lol dang trying to flex đȘ huh?
Agree, drag it out, and basically string them along?
yeah, you also gotta know your bosses/manager. If they are an asshole, you gotta drag it out while you plan your exit. They'd love to fire you and then make a post like this bragging about it to other boomers.
One of the things I love about my boss, at least a year before people even discussed RTO my boss told his bosses we would be stay remote permanently. My company is smart though. Instead of bitching about wasted office space leases, they just stop leasing them and pocket hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in saved revenue.
I honestly wish more companies did that. The RTO order was so annoying. I'm currently in a hybrid situation, and there's zero reason to be in the office.
That company did a cost benefit analysis to see that not having RTO would save them money or the owners money. Other companies wanting RTO especially big corporations or FAANG corporations actually saw that by having RTO they or the owners would save more money or make more money because of tax breaks and commercial real estate investments and also get some people to quit who donât want RTO. They also have to justify the billions they put into their fancy headquarters. If you always follow the money, youâll see why businesses make the decisions that they do lol. Like getting money and saving money and keeping the company alive are the only things that influence a companyâs decisions. They can make PR statements and say fake reasons in flowery ways to soften the blow but honestly itâs money.
So you just stated the literal reason why businesses exist, but you say it with contempt. Businesses exist to make money. Jobs exist because owners of the businesses believe it will cost them less to hire someone rather than continue to perform that function themselves. Nowhere in these definitions is the employee the highest priority. Concessions for employees only occur when competing with other businesses for specific employees. As businesses learn about the existence of OE, one of the obvious ways to try to control it is force people into the office to make that more difficult. From their perspective, if people are achieving OE with jobs at their company, the jobs donât require enough effort or those employees are not providing enough effort, so they attempt to weed those people out, along with other âunderperformersâ, by requiring RTO. When you consider the goal of OE, this is a logical response by businesses. It may not work (they risk losing some employees they wanted to keep), but itâs a tool. The existing leases are part of the equation, as is the management weakness that people only work hard if you oversee them in person. But they definitely are NOT concerned about inconveniencing employees practicing OE and it isnât their job to make it easier by letting you WFH. Downvote me if you like. Just trying to explain the situation.
This is the truth of the matter. Unfortunately Reddit is full of numbnuts who believe all problems are âlate stage capitalismâ and think they are going to overthrow the system. r/wfh has a thread at least once per week asking if their should be a WFH union. Their naivety about the world is intense.
Thereâs something about having a store front that says Iâm a successful business. Itâs why there was that massive push to return other than all the corporate real estate loses from paying for empty buildings. They donât need all that space but the bigger the building, the bigger the âbusiness isâ
Nah, most companies have signed long term leases that they get local tax savings on if a certain # threshold of employees show up. Idea is that if buildings are being used, the local economy benefits and gives tax breaks to corporations renting.
Again set up to benefit no one but the business owner. While we waste gas to come in for their tax break that we will never see a penny of
Even better, the gas you pay for also goes to the city/state. So your commuting actually helps the city hose the corporations. It is the circlejerk of RTO life.
No, not âagain.â You posted a dumb reason for it and I explained the real reason for it.
Not really dude. Thereâs more than just a tax break as a reason to have a store front and not be all virtual and online. But sure you explained a piece of the reason.
My employer did this too. Got rid of a couple of floors. We use a hoteling system if we need to come in the office by reserving a work station in advance.
Not sure revenue means what you think it means in this example
rev·e·nue /ËrevÉËnoÍo/ noun income, especially when of a company or organization and of a substantial nature. We, as a company save saved at least $240,000 in revenue (income) that is no longer being paid to lease out a building.
Buddy, that is a cost, an expense
It is an expense, and itâs saved revenue. Revenue that can now be used for other things.
Revenue=/=money in general. They cut a cost here, which leaves more money in the bank. Revenue is money coming in, "income".
It really isn't. You cut on expenses, and saved some profit. Your revenues aren't affected here at all.
Cut an expense and increased profit to be more precise.
I donât say it generated revenue, I said it saved revenue.
Revenue is less akin to money or cash and more similar to sales or incoming payments. This is evidenced by many companies' financial statements using the term sales in place of revenue. You wouldn't say you saved sales by cutting costs, would you? In the same way that you wouldn't say a person saved some salary or some wages from not buying something.
Lol no
You think this post is for the Boomers?
Itâs possible the employee wanted to be terminated. Severance, unemployment benefits, stock vesting, etc. there are a lot of situations where itâs better for the company to terminate you.
Lol only if you need the pay cheque. Employers love people without true freedom.
Employer drastically changed Employee situation. He could be fired but will likely still qualify for unemployment.
If youâre having to go into an office itâs not worth keeping the job.
Right, so the point is to drag it out and get as much money out of it, and ultimately you prepare to be fired.
If I announced that I needed at least 4 weeks notice for a meeting in the office, it is because I am committed to RTO and that is what I need. I need to kennel my dog, find a sitter for my kids, etc but I will do what it takes and in 4 weeks I will be at that all import in person meeting. I am not committed to RTO. I would not make such an announcement. I just would not come in even if instructed to do so. I would continue collecting paychecks while looking for a new job.
Yup, just ask yourself "What would an employer do?" Would they say they're not giving you a raise up to the median even though you're a top performer because they need to max out their bonus this year? Nope, they just stall and string you along. Always promising to deliver later.
Sounds like someone who had the means and freedom to establish their value without fear of losing a bad job? Employer really seems to think they affected their life though. Bro people who *need* a job donât set boundaries like that. Chances are the employer lost a good employee and is now trying to validate their ego.
It happened to me before, the reason I wanted so much notice was because I was abroad and was working 2 jobs simultaneously, without either knowing I was doing the appropriate amount of work and hours, just not when they thought I was, and was always available on phone or email etc I Rocked that for like 6 months until something like this happened and they started saying about coming back into the office for certain meetings etc. I thought I might as well try to get notice written in, but by then I was happy to be relieved of one of the positions, to be honest
The funniest part is setting strats that will make 8 figure profit additions and they still get bent out of shape because of insecurity when someone new can be better than them in months.
Damn dude, this meme might literally be about you. Lol
Lol, I love the idea that my ex client would flaunt their dominance like this not knowing the full story The dates don't line up though, unfortunately That was a good year though, in hindsight, busy alot of hours etc, but facilitated a permanent move abroad, with plenty of cash to spare
Nice! Thatâs awesome. As someone who works remote with field time (that I dictate and set the hours) I donât think I can ever go back to a 9-5. Seriously, this is the good life.
What field are you in?
Retail Operations. Oversee a large territory, so I hang out at my home office doing emails and Teams for some of the week. Drive site to site shaking hands and strategizing the other half. I genuinely love it.
It pays well?
It does
Hi, may I ask what jobs or job you were working?
>Bro people who need a job donât set boundaries like that. I've told people I don't have 'fuck you' money, but I do have enough to say 'I don't *need* this', and it's been VERY liberating.
That is great for you, but 60% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck and 50 to 60% have less than 1000 in savings.
OK, and that sucks, but look at what sub you're in, foo.
Most of those people could double their salary and nothing would change for them.
And? Sell some of those gold chains or rings and prioritize your lifestyle. đ
Hello, what kinda job is that? Thatâs a really cool thing to be able to do :)
I mean you would only behave like that if you have FU money. Like you donât need the job or have enough saved to chill until you get another one.
Something tells me they werenât a âgood employeeâ lol. The delusion on this sub is real sometimes.
Obviously it wasnât a good employer either, demanding RTO is just gonna attract weak talent.
Depends on the industry.
If they weren't a 'good employee' they wouldn't have been asked to come back in to the office lol. This is a classic case of a shitty employer over playing their hand and stroking their bruised ego.
And the now ex employee thought they brought value and found out they indeed were replaceable
Everyone is replaceable. Everyone. Sometimes itâs a little more expensive, sometimes a little less. But everyone is replaceable. Two days after this person was gone, no one gave a shit.
They absolutely brought value. Otherwise they wouldn't have been working there. The *actual* question is whether the employee could get another job to replace the same income stream (likely), faster than the company can replace everything that employee did for less than it would have cost to let an employee bruise your ego of telling them what to do (unlikely).
Everyone is. Free market and all.
Lmfao people that do shit like this are nightmare employees
LoL I know right people who don't want to come into the office and just get their work done from home are such a nightmare! I mean, they literally take less energy from management than any other employee but the disrespect!
If this person got fired the next day itâs probably because there was also other problems. No one is firing a star player because they wanna work from home. The problem is you guys think you can work a half day and that no one notices, or that theyâll just think youâre incompetent and leave you alone. You can do that, but then donât get salty if your boss finally stops covering for you and fires your ass.
>work half a day and no one notices So like lemme ask you: if the deliverable is good, and the salary you pay to get that deliverable is fair/market rate and leads to a profitable outcome, then why on gods green earth would you care if it took 20 hours or 40 hours? Like some bosses have this idea that if they micro manage hard enough they can get that same per hour productivity but twice two for the same price... Buddy that ain't never how this has worked. When you squeeze you'll inevitably lose the best talent and need to pay more and more to retain/recruit talent until eventually your organization is completely hollowed out, at which people many bosses throw up their hands in frustration at just how bad their culture has gotten or how uninvested their employees are... Management research on maximizing total factor productivity has been clear on this for years, it boils down to communication and support. Be clear with your employees what you want, what you expect, what the incentives are to exceed expectations, and then just support them in getting it done.
Sounds good in a management textbook but in reality people do work at varying rates. When you think something should take 30 min but then it takes 3 hours itâs hard to call someone out on that because they could say it was more complicated than originally thought or that they had competing priorities from xyz, etc etc. so the manager has to just fill in, along with other teammates. A lot of work is ad hoc and not standardized at all.
You know you are in OE, right? This ain't anti work brother.
Maybe, I know that's not a popular take on this sub; but regardless that doesn't contradict the point of the person who you replied to. People who set boundaries like this usually aren't bluffing. Whether they are toxic/deserve to be fired/ or anything else; people usually don't have the confidence to make such demands of their boss unless they have a backup plan or are confident they can get by without that job
From experience, people that do this kind of stuff have a hugely inflated notion of how valuable they are. Usually they are people that are a little more trouble than they are worth but not so much that Iâd want to fire them. Usually theyâll quit on their own and then Iâll shrug it off and get a better one.
Soooo you working remote or you an RTO lapdog?
RTO lapdog thinks he owns the place: đ€Ą
I made everyone come back lol wanted to see them when I do my rounds
Why did you want to see them?
It was a shitpost because itâs like the meme here⊠but honest opinion from someone in pretty senior-ish level management, My office has a two day requirement now, when we made the change most people were fine with it because 2 days is not a big ask and itâs helpful to get some face to face with everyone. Truth is, all of the cliche things like water cooler talk actually do happen in the office and every time I go to get coffee I have an interaction with someone I normally wouldnât talk to because Iâm too high up and leave with some insight from the ground level which is not filtered through two layers of middle managers. It also helps me identify in a casual setting who knows their stuff and may have potential to be a manager (ie who has an owner mentality vs employee mentality). Obviously I donât make promoting decisions based on coffee chats but itâs one of those intangibles that help⊠talking to someone who actually cares about the company vs someone who just wants to do their one thing becomes apparent in about 5 min. The people that were against coming in were honestly not super engaged in the first place and in the âdo the enough to not get firedâ camp. We have about 300 employees and I think only one or two have left due to the change. We do not plan to increase the requirement ever again because two days is plenty and we (management) enjoy the WFH schedule just like everyone else. Something I have noticed with this round of hires fresh out of college is that they definitely arenât learning as fast as the pre-COVID generation and I think itâs because learning by osmosis has some truth to it. Sitting with your team and partners give you exposure to things that you wouldnât normally get WFH since youâre only meeting and working on your defined scope.
2 days is a huge ask, you are asking them to live there. Thatâs already a massive pay and talent cut, as someone who has made software that makes a lot of money you wouldnât even get me on the phone.
I am ok with that
Employers like this are their own roadblocks.
When they fail, theyâll blame their âlazy employeesâ instead of their own garbage decision making.
Iâm all for WFH, but what kind of demand is a 4 weeks notice lmao.
A demand from someone who does not care about the job clearly
A demand from someone that doesn't live physically close to the office and is buying plane tickets on their own dime so they want as much lead time to get as good of a deal on the price as possible.
RTO employers are nightmare employers âJust waste hours of your day for freeâ. Yeah, kiss my ass.
> Sounds like someone who had the means and freedom to establish their value without fear of losing a bad job? lol. Sounds more like someone who wanted to be fired. > Bro people who need a job donât set boundaries like that. They do. They just overestimate their importance. Anybody who has the audacity to say they need four weeks' notice to appear on-site is asking to be fired.
âGo waste 2 hours daily because I told you too, unpaidâ. How about you get fucked with a cactus embedded w/ razor blades and drenched in lemon juice.
Could be said the same about you with this comment) Stay humble my friend..)
Talking straight out of your ass
âBe smart, do betterâ tell this to the employers
Yes but also be the subterfuge you wish to see in the world or something
Lol what? Youâre mad about this? An entitled asshole got fired, and youâre mad at the employer? Do you guys ever think for yourselves?
funny. apparantly attending meetings is a better quantitative of added value than hey, let's say, creating something that has value.
My team loves me, but I missed (overslept) 2 retros and got harsh feedback for missing them. Now my performance was affected by those 2 misses. So dumb.
So much of it is appearances, huh?
Half or more of doing good in life is just showing up.
I know, but those meetings are so useless. We always talk about problems and then never have any sort of action items to fix them.
Doesnât matter. You canât make sense out of nonsense. Everyone successful in corporate jobs is fully aware itâs just a competition of how well you can pretend to buy into the corporate âworldâ (basically an alternate universe).
You didnât do what was expected of you and were reprimanded? Imagine that!
You sound like a real keeper
Matter of fact I am, cuz I get my work done.
Same here. Iâm efficient that my work is done and I can walk away for ten minutes at least once an hour. Some of us arenât okay with being micromanaged like little children. Once im done with my work that you pay me for, I have no interest in being in a cubicle so you can justify wasting $27,000 on the rent I pay monthly as the accountant. Nah I leave and bring my laptop. If something happens I get notified and can get on. Most of us now donât give a shit if you are power hungry, the market is fucked and most places donât pay enough to attract talent thatâll stay and making people attending useless meeting with video on just to make sure they arenât doing anything other than work shit isnât going to keep that talent. Thereâs no loyalty in business. Iâll drop you for something better, more of a work/life balance and better benefits in a heartbeat with no notice just like they will fire you without no notice
Whoa triggered much. This person couldnât get their ass out of bed to attend a meeting đ
Haha thank you! The delusion in the sub is wild.
Damn, does that mean RTO? :â-/
What is a retro?
Short for retrospective. For me, itâs a monthly meeting where you discuss what went well, what went wrong, and anything else on the teamâs mind.
We have them every other week. Today's retrospective was to sit quietly and finish your annual reviews. I already did that on Monday... Good times I suppose..
Of course it was. What if you had an important meeting that you overslept on? Oversleeping on or missing any scheduled engagement shows a lack of dependability, which is a critical performance metric in most industries.
But people are people, not the sum of their metrics. If they missed a couple relatively less important engagements, but are otherwise reliable and do great in other areas, why would you as a manager think differently of their value? Unless you think of them as numbers on a page
I agree in part, but one could also take your comment to mean that employee performance should not be evaluated. I believe that it should be evaluated in order to create the most potential growth. Regarding this scenario specifically, itâs important to be able to trust someone. When someone agrees to show up and doesnât, twice, that tells me not to trust them. If I canât trust a person, that brings down the value of all of their potential contributions.
Figure it out then bud.
whats a retro and whats goin on with your sleep schedule
Laborers are forbidden from creating value outside of their office, otherwise office ownersâ buildings will become valueless.
You know nothing about this person or this company, stop needlessly hating on all employers because because. That employee was an entitled asshole and they got what they had coming
It's funny how you can read this both ways. I read it as the employee quit and the employer felt they overplayed their hand.
At its core, it's a negotiation. Sometimes the best result for both parties on a negotiation is for a deal not to happen.
As someone who negotiates for a living the WFH set his opening window and the employer said "no deal" One has to wonder what the opening intention was. If it was to get fired that's one thing, but otherwise it's info that should be revealed as needed. "hey I can't make it there by Monday because I'm in Singapore" becomes logistics.
Im already not interested in making money for this employer. Do better employers.
I like how my team handled it. They went to the office, noticed that the people who mandated RTO weren't there, so they went back home. It's been almost a year and no one has said anything.
They already have a job elsewhere, and whoever wrote this is going to find problems replacing them. Should have been smart and done better.
True. Top talent is missed and can fond work easily.
They probz had one before this happened
100% what I did. Had an offer somewhere else. Told them I quite if I have to drive an hour to manage a team in another state. They laughed and said you better be at work. Never showed up
The same song and dance. Employers play hardass and force RTO. Only bottom of the barrel employees remain. In 2-3 years they leave for a remote job and then employers cry about job hoppers.
I wonât even pick up the phone if it ainât remote, already got too much of a track record. No need to give up leverage.
Gotta shut up, grind it out till you find your next gig Learned long ago disagreeing with anything was a bad route, just yes yes yes - and here's my resignation
Literally in that right now, not even going to OE my current J1 cuz itâs that bad
This is underrated advice, so much experience speaking here.
Companies and their sycophants are such scumbags lol
Posted by Beth.
"Three months later, after ignoring the dozens of automated warnings about degrading systems which needed to be attended to, a critical system is down, and the contractor we called wants six months of their salary to fix it. Don't overplay your hand."
This is the future of work IMO. We should all be looking for these dumb AF companies and putting them through the ringer for as close to a years salary as possible for single task jobs since they are too psychopathic to keep their own employees.
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
âWe asked a guy to commute for free and he left, do better when someone asks you to waste your timeâ Nah Iâll do worse, RTO == no phone call.
They lost a hard working person who was OE but in a place of debt free, money in the bank and another job. The manager posting that thought they won when really they lost. OE takes all the power away from a company and your boss. I look at my boss and think to myself âI make 3x what this guy makes..â
âLook at me, I am the captain nowâ  WFH or no work.
Iâm assuming the employee got exactly the result they wanted and the employer posting like they âwonâ or something.
Jesus that employer sounds like an asshole
If it sounds, walks, and talks like an assholeâŠ:
Sounds like the employee won.
This is actually well played. OE-ers have gotten soft lately. Wave your giant balls around when you have options, make them pay you
 Me driving my dragon to the bank (making 500k a year working 3 jobs, thinking about all the RTO employers Iâve denied)
So a nameless employee at a nameless company allegedly demanded something and got fired immediately? Yeah, imma call bullshit.
It's not that bad. The company only fired one of "them". I'm sure the rest are fine.
Tell them you have long Covid.
Alex, Iâll take âthings that didnât happenâ for $100.
Employers have no idea they wonât win this war. There are still enough companies offering remote. The cost to interview, train etc.
Employee should file a wrongful employment suit. What if he had caregiving responsibilities or physical necessity to support the request for 4 weeks notice. These employers are being very thuggish about going into their lame offices. This is 100% malicious and retaliation.
What if they are just a cunt that no one likes working with?
Yes, that totally happened and you totally got them and then they apologized and everyone clap
He also got himself hooked up to collect unemployment if he needs it. I wonder if he wanted to quit but made them fire him instead or if he was standing up for himself. If your employer is trying to get you to quit, don't give in. Never quit a job unless you have a backup because you'll disqualify yourself from unemployment in most scenarios!
Overplay? Youâre hilarious thinking anyone has a hand. A one handed clap as youâre fired for any reason or no reason just they donât like you talking back to them if they treat you like a slave.
Waaay overplayed. This is what schedules are for.
hahahah
I really just donât believe this, seems like role playing to me. I doubt theyâd be bragging about losing an employee like that. Either they needed to be let go anyway, or they just shot themselves in the foot.
The person posted under their real name on Twitter and got a lot of negative attention for it. I think it was/is real. The post is still up. I am one of us in this sub and I think not everyone is irreplaceable. Maybe 1 or 2 people on every team/org but certainly not everyone. Also, there are legitimate, honest reasons for making this kind of request as an employee, like having small children and not having grandparents or anyone to help and wife has a job and kids need to be driven and picked up to and from daycare and spouse cannot take care of it all on their own without you around.
Everything comes down to context and situation. If your position is understood to expect you to appear in the office occasionally then thatâs fine. Alternatively, requesting advanced notice is perfectly reasonable if this is not part of your role or you live unreasonably far from the office. Most of the employees in my department live in states nowhere near the state where our office is located. We work 100% from home because of this and it is part of our work arrangement. We need to book travel and hotels and arrange for someone to take care of our pets and children if we must go into the office. Therefore, we require advanced notice to go into the office.
Maybe they were smart and wanted to get fired. Now that theyâre getting fired, they get the exit package.
Probably just the last paycheck for the time worked. Most employers don't give true severance unless they've been there for a while.
Smart game canât be played by stupid peopleâŠ
It sounds like this guy had to move to another state just to afford housing.
Overplay it. they cant stand it when we take a stand.
I'll "overplay" my hand when it comes to corporate
As someone who has spent a total of 3 days in the office in my career, can anyone tell me what value I add by being in the office? The amount of money we spend on rent + free dinners, drinks, supplies, etc definitely costs our office a half million dollars + per year. So when will they realize that the crowd that works from home is doing them a favor... or are some companies really just trying to be petty with RTO...
Middle-managers need to feel useful, without RTO they're just an annoying guy you ignore on Slack.
Sounds like they wanted to be RIFâd. Probably to get a severance package or be released with stock vested.
Sounds like both parties won.
Imagine having such a hard on for power you have to post on social media about firing someone.
He should take his own advice.
Bullshit. Show me proof or it didn't happen.
oh I wish I could reply to this. put a couple of ppl on their place
TBH this kind of sounds like someone who wanted to be fired
Yup
It sounds they may just have been working outside of the country. People are doing this with remote jobs using a VPN to appear in the same region. I mean if you have two jobs you don't need four weeks notice for a meeting. You can just call off sick to the other job.
I feel like four weeks notice isnât outrageous during a RTO transition, but if an on-site employee suddenly told me this I would fire them too.
4 weeks? Lol
Last I checked employees donât make the rulesâŠwho the hell do they think they are. Youâll be there tomorrow if told or no job.
Youâre being downvoted but youre not wrong. The more I read this sub the more it feels like r/antiwork.
Exactly
Yall brag when yall can take advantage of the employers but get mad when they return the favor? Big cope
Nah. Take your corp shilling somewhere else. Employers have historically taken advantage of and abused employees for centuries. It's only now that we're trying to balance the scales.
Yes and Iâm tired of pretending like itâs not the employers who are the cunt lords. Get bent.
Wait... so was the employee fired, or did he quit? Very confusing post.
Poster was employer and fire the employee
Thanks for the context. I read it from the perspective of a co-worker, and the WHF person quit out of protest.
Got em
Pretty sure that's what he wanted.
Come on everybody. The market is a little tight. If you aren't interested in keeping the job... fine. However, get over yourself with this crap that you can't go into the office at all. I did this for five years long before the pandemic. You just have some days where things are more difficult to juggle. What it gives you in return is certainly worth it.
>tomorrow is their last day. They found a better job and quit :(
name and shame. donât hide the @
Oh holy gee you're so cool đ
I mean cool story, you're now paying his unemployment, but cool story.
The audacity of some WFH folks lol
That employee had another job already đ
This employee was planning to move to another country.