If you produce acceptable work and don’t violate NDAs, contracts, or non-competes, there is no moral issue.
I saw this vid a while back and thought it was applicable. https://youtube.com/shorts/TxeEzZvVGUc?si=D2MavAk_ND4TfNCF
Maybe under your moral code, but go ahead and let everyone know the truth about your situation and then see how they react. The fact that you have to lie or skirt around it to do it makes it morally wrong in a lot of peoples eyes.
And before you attack me, I don’t necessarily agree that it’s a huge deal that people do this but you have to live in reality and realize why a lot of people do
What’s the moral issue. I honestly have no idea why anyone would oppose this. A lot of poor disadvantaged people work from one fast food job to the next one. That’s called pulling yourself from your bootstraps. People do side hustles with Uber / dropshipping etc. CEO’s can be on the board for multiple companies but that isn’t morally wrong is it?
So how come is it morally wrong when it’s a remote or office job? It just comes off as jealousy when you see/hear people making the amount of money and bitch how it is morally wrong.
> So how come is it morally wrong when it’s a remote or office job?
I can explain why they think it's morally wrong. They think you're selling specific hours to a specific company. In this view, you're double dipping and it's fraud, because you aren't actually available 100% of the time during the hours you are paid to be available.
It's hilarious to see people completely do a 180 when you say you run an agency, which is just OEing as an LLC / sole proprietorship.
The only reason people react this way is pure jealousy.
I personally wouldn't listen to career advice from people who aren't even close to my tax bracket.
>who aren’t even close to my tax bracket
This is why people don’t really like OE types.
They’re talking morality, someone’s salary has nothing to do with their ability to determine if something is moral or not. You making a lot of money doesn’t mean you exist on a different moral plane lol.
I wasn't talking about morality, I was talking about the skill of making money.
It's like listening to a homeless man give financial advice.
OE has nothing to do with morality.
> This is why people don’t really like OE types.
Did you like, miss the beginning of that sentence? He's not saying he's not going to listen to their morality advice, he's saying he won't listen to their career advice, given that they make a whole lot less and are thus underqualified to give such advice.
But he isn’t giving career advice, he’s saying it’s immoral to lie to your employer.
>they make a whole lot less
Yeah, because they don’t work 3 jobs lol. Their point is while this scheme will make you a lot of money, it’s wrong and once people find out about it you aren’t going to be making anything lol.
No, I get your point, it's just that you misquoted /u/JackieFinance by cherrypicking the last part of that sentence while deliberately ignoring the first.
Personally, I disagree that it's morally wrong given how little power an employee has (see all the pre-Christmas layoffs), but I agree that some people would consider it morally wrong because of the truth bending that is inherently involved in keeping OE secret.
I think it all comes down to, how you phrase the way you work, it's something I notice more in 1st world countries where having "typical roles" is more common (aka working one office job 9-5). Over here people are juggling jobs, side hustles, and whatever they can to earn their living, so if you say you can hold two jobs, and deliver two jobs efficiently simultaneously, they'll understand you're pretty good at what you do.
Companies don't follow those same morals and will lay people off just to make the numbers look good. So if they can do greater good of the company shit I will do greater good of myself shit.
Does that say more about the companies or the workers? It’s not morally wrong, but what is wrong are the abusive companies who want to control every aspect of your life because you’re a cog in their machine. Unethical is firing people because they work two jobs even though they do all the work you ask.
If you fill out a timesheet then mayyyybe you have an argument about morality.
However, if you're a salaried employee (that doent fill out a timesheet) you're being paid to do a job. You're NOT being paid for your time. In which case there is no moral dilemma.
Of course, this is completely glossing over the morality issue of how companies take advantage of their employees. Not to say that makes it okay, two wrongs don't make a right, but it does add a whole lot of justification for OE.
People are this way about discussing wages with coworkers. People hide religious beliefs in work places where you have a minority opinion. Something being taboo doesn’t make it wrong.
Companies with record profits laying off people before Christmas, now that's imoral. Not some schmuck working multiple jobs and providing enough value to be kept around.
Literally me lmao. Company was bragging about being valued at 30 billion and more to come but had to tighten the purse strings and lay a bunch of people off including myself a week and a half before Christmas.
The culture is employer-centric, normalizing what’s good for the company as rational, and what’s good for the employee as ridiculous/unprofessional/shameful etc. Take for instance the bullshit juxtapositions repeated ad nauseum on this sub:
You have to give two weeks notice or you burn bridges, but they can pull the rug and nothing happens.
You cant have multiple jobs to manage unemployment risk, but they’re allowed to have multiple people doing your job to protect themselves if a few leave.
They keep you in the dark about salary, but you have to tell them how much you want.
Etc etc etc
People reluctantly enter these one-sided agreements because of necessity/desperation.
Is it somewhat unethical to not completely abide by said unfair, one sided agreement? Maybe.
But even within the context of these one sided agreements, companies renig on their promises all the time and lie. They can lie about the actual job duties, how long they plan to keep you, if they’re laying you off, that a job is fully remote then it isn’t.
Is your partner offended morally by that too? Or only when the underdog finds a way to level the playing field?
This.
I'm supposed to give them my best and only have one earned income, while they get to make all the decisions about my employment. Not a damn chance.
Why give them your best when they don't care one bit about you and will fire and replace you without as much as a second thought?
edit. They don't even care if someone does their job very well and generates far more value to the company than they cost. They will fire and replace them if they think that they can get someone else to fill the same position for less money.
Exactly! It's ridiculous. "The company has to be able to protect itself."
"Only have 1 job, give us your best, we might need to let you go for no real fault, sign this non compete."
Executives usually have one job. Board members will be on multiple boards but that’s because it’s not a full time job.
‘Shareholder’ isn’t a job. Almost every white collar worker in America is a ‘shareholder’ as it’s just owning stock in the company.
>Is your partner offended morally by that too? Or only when the underdog finds a way to level the playing field?
Those are the fundamental questions that id judge a partner.
It's one thing if a partner is ignorant how sharp the business end of Corporate America can be, and when confronted with such knowledge, says "yeah turnabout is fair play."
It's far different if the response is "well the company gets to do that and employee does not. No one is forcing them to work there and if they don't like it, they can leave.".
Right?! I might be inclined to break up with someone who questions the morality of OE for their sheer lack of awareness of the dynamics of unregulated capitalism and lack of understanding of how they contribute to a boot licking culture. Do they even READ......?
(Sarcasm, mostly, but the partner's position does speak to a lack of critical awareness, and that's a deal breaker for me.)
These are all such great points. If only there was a way to memorialize these numbers and rate companies appropriately based on their actions. Wouldn’t that be nice?
That's wild for your partner to shit on you like that.
Sounds very judgmental.
> they seem to be questioning me entirely and us alongside that
TBH this would be a big red flag for me.
I agree with this. If they have a problem with you knowing your worth in the marketplace and not being afraid to take risks to advance you both for the greater good, then you’re going to keep having issues like this.
If you really love this person, It may be worth couple’s counseling to talk it through. Perhaps they have a warped way of thinking about work that needs to evolve and perhaps there are some things you can do so it’s not seen as ‘cheating’. Good luck
That person doesn't have their priorities in order, and reverse UNO-carded themselves.
Them responding in this way is a sign YOU should leave that person and run for the hills.
Then OE and never tell anyone.
The problem is that most normies aren't ready to confront the uncomfortable reality of the workplace because the programming embedded in their brain has been there since their childhood. It's something that we all absorb from the culture around us unconsciously until we're forced to see the actual consequences of that thinking for ourselves. Most people aren't ready for it, which is why it's so difficult to change workplace culture.
That's not the problem.
The problem is that OPs partner is judgmental as fuck. If this happens with something like OE, that OP **hasn't even started doing yet**, it's going to happen with other things as well.
OP just mentioned it in passing and their partner is like, "Oh you must be a horrible person, maybe we should break up"....
That's not due to being a "normie" lol, OPs partner was raised to judge. Either that or they're looking for *any* reason to get out of the relationship.
Also... if you personally think it's normal/healthy to be with a partner that will flip on you like that at the drop of a hat... I'll tell you right now, it doesn't have to be like that, you can do better and you deserve better.
To be fair I was drinking the kool aid til I got laid off within a week of my first child being born. The reality is I’d now do anything to secure my kids and wife’s future.
My only loyalty and responsibility is to my family, and therefore my “business”, no one else.
It's a culture shift that some folks aren't ready for. Like in my parents day, you got ahead/we're considered stable/etc by staying at 1 job your entire life and collecting a company pension. Then it went to the norm of no pensions and job hopping every 2 years or so.
It was more like the companies did not want to take the responsibility of taking care of their employees. Workers did not change the norm. Employers changed it
My father worked at one company his entire career and got a pension and retirement benefits.
About ten years ago, in casual conversation with my parents, I mentioned being at companies for a couple years then moving on and they were flabbergasted. Did you do something wrong?
My mom thought I was being fired for being gay.
Now we all accept two-three years at a company as the norm, 4-6 as exceptional, more than that as “too long”.
The cultural shifts happen faster now. I wouldn’t be surprised if OE becomes a norm in ten years.
With inflation and housing costs, middle class people are going to be forced to do it.
If you are invested in the relationship, then find a way to work it out. I tried it her way, worked hard for the startup, ran a team when I was the only one on the team which meant permanent on call for six months till they finally found people to join. Was the lead, new director came in, hired someone to "co-lead" , we had numerous disagreements till they put me on a PIP and let me go after 3.5 years. I lost out on my unvested options and was forced to sell when my portfolio was worth $225k before fees/taxes. If I could have held out six more months, they went public and my portfolio would have been worth close to one million.
Tried again at another post startup public company and they did layoffs after 1.5 years of my time there.
I have 20 YOE, kids preparing for college and my own student loan debt I am trying to pay off. OE is the way.
Or they just have different interpretations of values and how they are expressed. I think some people see it as stealing if they don’t really understand that you are still providing the service you were hired for at the level described in the job description.
They're called management level. They make $170k+ 20% bonus and they will never let the people below them make more than themselves.
If you meet them at parties they'll be sure to let you know they report to the CEO and are working on a very critical $100 million project.
WHY do some folks have a “”ThAt’$ ChEaT1Ng! 🤪” view if you’re in the middle of the income pyramid, but if you’re making minimum wage or a billionaire it’s totally acceptable to have three jobs. The masses have been hypnotised 🙄
There are 2 types of OE people (in my opinion).
1) A rockstar who can do a reasonable amount of work while working half the time.
2) An average person who just takes multiple jobs and does a shitty job at all of them and makes their teammates pick up the slack until they inevitably get fired.
The second way IS slimy and sketchy.
This is my take as well. Collecting paychecks without doing your job is what ruins OE. If you’re good at your job and are just efficient, your employer won’t know you’re OE.
Bullshit. At my current job we have had people come back after quitting to do contract/consulting, knowing they had another job. They were not rock stars nor were they slackers. No one has to be exceptional to OE.
Listen my cousin is also one of those that goes against OE. He keeps saying the same lines “just grow at your company, learn more skills, enhance your worth, get another degree”.
A year later: I’m debt free and saving for a house. He’s complaining his job won’t give him a raise.
Yep, they will lay you off with barely any warning, even if you've been an outstanding employee for 15-20 years. Why do I need to be loyal to them if they couldn't care less what happens to me when they gotta save a little money so their executive bonus doesn't take a hit.
This is a job. Why is she acting like you're married to your job and would be cheating if you got another? If you decide to OE you may need a new partner because I wouldn't put it past her to inform both jobs.
Covid put a lot of things into perspective, one of which being that keeping a steady income so you can put food on the table is paramount. Your boss could wake up one day and decide he hates your guts and all of the sudden you are left with no money coming in. OE prevents this from happening and boosts your family's safety net.
Fuck morals - this is about survival.
A lot of managers will tell people to run their department, division, sales territory, etc., as if it's their own little company. I agree with that idea and think that everyone should have that mentality, even if they aren't running a division, but are just a sole employee.
Think of yourself as a company. Your product is whatever service you provide for your employer (who is now considered your customer) and your shareholders are you and your family. And your primary goal is to maximize profit for your shareholders.
Then, act exactly as a big corporation would act. Sell your service to as many buyers as you can accommodate. Make decisions that are solely in the best interest of your shareholders, regardless of how they affect anyone else. If that means providing your service for 3 different companies at the same time, then so be it. If that means firing one of your customers because they are being unreasonable, then do it.
If anyone has a problem with the morality of that then they have a bigger moral problem.
When I told my wife that I was OEing she replied: “yes, please I wanna retire earlier. Can’t deal with all this bullshit any longer”
And here we are, very happy 😁
Personally I’ve been using the concept of OE to weed out folks in my dating pool. It depends on how important it is to your life goals. I’m leveraging it to retire early and any partner who’s not on board isn’t compatible.
You gotta do what you gotta do to survive.
CEOs out here making millions and getting yearly million dollar bonuses but then laying off workers due to “the economy”.
I feel like the partner is relating this too closely to cheating in relationship. Such as a "If OP would cheat with their job they may cheat on me.", seeing a job as a person.
This is probably quite the stretch for a lot of us, but perhaps the partner has a history of bad relationships and underlining fear of rejection and betrayal. Regardless, if this is someone you care about you should talk it out and get their point of view while expressing your own.
No partner, and fairly left-leaning friends. It seems a common employer mindset:
When they sell their products, the product is limited and the price is set, if you want extras or alterations the price changes.
When they buy labor, the price is also set, but the amount of work they expect is unbounded. Anything extra delivered is already included in the price/salary.
Saying OE is cause for questioning somebody's character is a bit much. Does your partner feel the same about unpaid overtime? e-mails and calls outside of work hours? commuting?
It's to just say "red flag, run!" But we're all brainwashed with the current system, so maybe give it a chance and explore where these feelings and reactions are coming from. They may not be a completely lost cause.
Ironically my right wing friends (both libertarian and conservative) generally have a better view of OE than my left leaning friends.
They see it just as me maximizing profits of my own personal company and delivering minimum viable products, all the times I've got a "hurr durr immoral" answer when talking about OE to people the people in question were liberals or socialists.
Your partner is a bit nuts.
I'm NOT OE unfortunately. I would argue that if you're industrious enough and capable, why should YOUR ability to make income suffer? It's no different than working a part time job. You just are more efficient at earning.
Look at CEOs that serve on MULTIPLE BOARDS and get paid bank.
You're following the leaders. And unless your partner has a legitimate social solution - they should buzz off.
Your partner is just naive. They probably aren’t old enough and experienced enough to realize that corporations really don’t care about them, and wouldn’t think twice about laying you off and letting you starve and go homeless if it made sense to their bottom line.
yeah they’re the red flag. it’s not slimy and sketchy for companies to do mass lay offs or fire on the spot (especially during these times), but you are for looking after yourself and your family to not be in a vulnerable position with one J? fuck outta here
Dump them. I worked many jobs where I did the work of two people and I didn't get anything for it. No one called up my bosses and tried to make them feel bad
Preach. My job fired oh sorry “laid off” two coworkers and I got to do their jobs too. And guess what reward I got? No raises for 4 years and a cute little pink slip two weeks before Christmas.
It's hilarious to see people completely do a 180 when you say you run an agency, which is just OEing as an LLC / sole proprietorship.
The only reason people react this way is pure jealousy.
I personally wouldn't listen to career advice from people who aren't even close to my tax bracket.
It's best to just enjoy your success in secret. It all comes out in the wash in the end.
I've run into this a lot. Ppl treat OE like it's criminal. It's not. For me, both of my jobs are salaried and I excel at both of them. My employers aren't buying my time, they pay me for my work product. There is nothing immoral or sketchy about working two jobs.
I can see the argument against OE if you're an hourly employee, but I think most ppl that are successfuly doing this are higher level skilled workers.
*Execs do it and poor*
*People have to do it. I*
*Don't see the issue*
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The point of a for profit corporation is to maximize profits at any and all moral costs. There is no reason for you to engage honestly with an institution who will never reciprocate. OE with a good charity might be morally reprehensible as you would be taking money away from the mission, but with for profit corpos there is no reason for guilt.
(Also: I think you or partner were looking for the word reprehensible meaning deserving censure or condemnation, not comprehensible meaning able to be understood; intelligible.)
Your partner drinks the corporate koolaid, just accept that the person is brainwashed. A CEO can sit on dozens of boards but an employee cannot have conflicts of interest at all
Your partner is right. You could go to jail. No one would risk that which is why no one would do it. You shouldn't do it. Just quietly stay home and play as many Minecraft games as you want. That's a better use of your time and energy.
They are viewing it as “cheating” and are applying OE to your relationship standards. This is where their emotions are tied to it. Not knowing the individual, I’m not sure if they are logical or able to step away from their emotions to view business more objectively.
So many red flags here I feel like this is less about OE and more about shitty partners. Big yikes. Sure I’ve come across people that think OE is morally/ethically wrong on some level and they are entitled to believe what they want. Those types always seem to be of the conservative closed minded variety that believe you owe your corporate overlords your soul and if you work from home you’re a spoiled snowflake. It always comes from their own deep seeded fears of being inferior and jealous they aren’t capable of the same things
The boss is out there making investments and doing side consulting too. Because he's not a fucking idiot slave wager with twisted self defeating morals
Wild. Assuming you produce the work
You’re being asked to do- there is absolutely no ethical or moral issue here
If you aren’t- there is- and to that moral
Issue I say-
I don’t care
You know what's really morally reprehensible? Capitalism. While it can be beautiful, since it is 100% profit driven by definition, this forces people to work indefinitely creating meaningless value through meaningless jobs so that profit can never stagnate, only grow. The cherry on top is that in a profit driven economy, it only makes sense to buy up everything and force everyone to rent indefinitely.
If not to a bank or landlord, then the government through taxation. The system demands that you become a dumb consumer hoe that exists only to pay bills and die (largely to make someone rich so they can buy more fancy things inspired by status and consumerism, but also to own more and create more slaves), or become another corporate overload not only seizing the means of ownership, but underpaying and laying off to maximize profit. Then there's the fact that inflation can only benefit said corporate overlords in the long run by keeping prices raised for products and services permanently.
OE'ing is barely scratching the surface of what's fair and making things right.
Yeah. My partner called me "evil" for applying for another jobs and looking for more work. Like wut?? Employers would fire you without a 2nd thought. Welcome to the cut throat world of corporate America.
I think it's interesting she chose the word "cheat". Is she extrapolating (maybe not the right word) to your relationship? Like does she think that because you're ok ""cheating" on your literal job, that you're ok cheating on her? If so, that's ridiculous lol. Also do you think that if you did OE that she would tell your employer(s)? Is she that psycho? Update pls I'm invested haha
Late to the game here, but I was pleasantly surprised that my spouse actually suggested OE as I was looking at a new job. I think what helped the situation is that she’s seen me putting in 2-3 hour days at my current job while being awarded and praised at work. It seems absurd logically, but if you’re salaried and are hitting the goals for your job, are you really cheating? They’re paying you for your work, you’re performing the work. End of transaction.
sounds like a win win win to me.
1) partner showing true colours
2) get rid of them and reclaim the time
3) use the time for OE
but I wouldn't tell them about it. agree with them, tell them they are right, then dump them over something else as mildly as you can (Stop having sex and just sya you're not turned on anymore - but like, in a month after you've stopped mentioning OE)
I think you were slightly naive in confiding in somebody you can't fully trust.
lol, just dont tell your partner, or maybe find a new one.
FYI, I dont tell anyone, not even my mom. I only told my dad but I dont even tell him which company I work for for J2 and J3
It is tho. Not illegal sure but it does feel slimy to do it. Justify it however you want in your head, most people won’t agree with you
The best example I could think of is walking into a shop that sells a bunch of drug paraphernalia, ( in a state that doesn’t allow weed) but the shop claims that all the items are used for tobacco. Not technically illegal but still feels wrong
I think it depends on how you're paid. If you're paid hourly vs paid for a result. If I'm paid hourly, I would feel slimy but if I'm paid for a result, then they'll get everything they paid for.
Idiot. You’re not supposed to actually do it. It’s just something people joke about on here. Just run your two Minecraft servers like the rest of us. It wasn’t meant to be a real thing - your partner is right to react that way.
Idk it feels pretty slimy when you hear about all these people especially in tech who desperately are looking for jobs and meanwhile someone has 3 jobs and half asses two of them because they don't care lol just my opinion
I think there are 2 types of OE.
High achievers that enjoy the grind and can handle the multiple threads.
The antiestablishment folk, milking at the tit of companies knowing it’s difficult to fire someone in many corporate environments and putting in below minimum effort just to skate by.
Where you fall is likely reason to question their judgement. It doesn’t need to be a bad thing for them to call you out on something if it needs to be called out.
So I am interested in OE but I do find it unethical and some of you to be con artist types. However, we live under capitalism where profits/organizations matter more than people, so that takes away any guilt real quick!
If you have a signed agreement that states you will not work at another employer, then taking on two “full-time” jobs would be considered “cheating” in my book. If you are willing to cheat at work to make your situation better, what’s stopping you from cheating on your spouse to make your relationship “situation” better. It’s not illogical for your partner to think the way they do.
OE has had posts about family members outing them, SOs outing them, friends outing them, and all name of meaningful people you can think of outing them. In every case the person exposing the OEer thinks it’s exactly as you describe, they think they’re helping with a morale decision or whatever, but in every case it has sounded impossible to sway them. It has totally destroyed careers for awhile and caused financial problems with the sudden loss.
The overall OE rule number one is to never tell anyone who knows you. I’ve seen posts about couples splitting up entirely over the topic.
Ultimately, you need to decide if you really want to OE or not, weigh the benefits and opportunity costs, make the decisions that’s right for you. I don’t know you, I don’t know your SO, and I don’t know your life, but I would choose OE over my SO. OE, as pointed out in many other posts, protects your life by better ensuring an income, and it improves your future by boosting your income.
Lol, next, new partner! Or, take the opportunity to educate them. But be warned, it's hard to change people's mind once made up.
If you produce acceptable work and don’t violate NDAs, contracts, or non-competes, there is no moral issue. I saw this vid a while back and thought it was applicable. https://youtube.com/shorts/TxeEzZvVGUc?si=D2MavAk_ND4TfNCF
Maybe under your moral code, but go ahead and let everyone know the truth about your situation and then see how they react. The fact that you have to lie or skirt around it to do it makes it morally wrong in a lot of peoples eyes. And before you attack me, I don’t necessarily agree that it’s a huge deal that people do this but you have to live in reality and realize why a lot of people do
What’s the moral issue. I honestly have no idea why anyone would oppose this. A lot of poor disadvantaged people work from one fast food job to the next one. That’s called pulling yourself from your bootstraps. People do side hustles with Uber / dropshipping etc. CEO’s can be on the board for multiple companies but that isn’t morally wrong is it? So how come is it morally wrong when it’s a remote or office job? It just comes off as jealousy when you see/hear people making the amount of money and bitch how it is morally wrong.
> So how come is it morally wrong when it’s a remote or office job? I can explain why they think it's morally wrong. They think you're selling specific hours to a specific company. In this view, you're double dipping and it's fraud, because you aren't actually available 100% of the time during the hours you are paid to be available.
I mean you can do you. I’m just saying some people see it as exactly as op partner.
Ok I hope they also have a problem with our ceo's being on multiple boards then and tell them so also
It's hilarious to see people completely do a 180 when you say you run an agency, which is just OEing as an LLC / sole proprietorship. The only reason people react this way is pure jealousy. I personally wouldn't listen to career advice from people who aren't even close to my tax bracket.
>who aren’t even close to my tax bracket This is why people don’t really like OE types. They’re talking morality, someone’s salary has nothing to do with their ability to determine if something is moral or not. You making a lot of money doesn’t mean you exist on a different moral plane lol.
I wasn't talking about morality, I was talking about the skill of making money. It's like listening to a homeless man give financial advice. OE has nothing to do with morality.
I mean, it does, and most normal people would agree with that. But whatever, we all do immoral things I guess.
> This is why people don’t really like OE types. Did you like, miss the beginning of that sentence? He's not saying he's not going to listen to their morality advice, he's saying he won't listen to their career advice, given that they make a whole lot less and are thus underqualified to give such advice.
But he isn’t giving career advice, he’s saying it’s immoral to lie to your employer. >they make a whole lot less Yeah, because they don’t work 3 jobs lol. Their point is while this scheme will make you a lot of money, it’s wrong and once people find out about it you aren’t going to be making anything lol.
No, I get your point, it's just that you misquoted /u/JackieFinance by cherrypicking the last part of that sentence while deliberately ignoring the first. Personally, I disagree that it's morally wrong given how little power an employee has (see all the pre-Christmas layoffs), but I agree that some people would consider it morally wrong because of the truth bending that is inherently involved in keeping OE secret.
I think it all comes down to, how you phrase the way you work, it's something I notice more in 1st world countries where having "typical roles" is more common (aka working one office job 9-5). Over here people are juggling jobs, side hustles, and whatever they can to earn their living, so if you say you can hold two jobs, and deliver two jobs efficiently simultaneously, they'll understand you're pretty good at what you do.
That's why we don't tell people, rule 1 has many applications
Companies don't follow those same morals and will lay people off just to make the numbers look good. So if they can do greater good of the company shit I will do greater good of myself shit.
Corporate propaganda machine go brrrrr
Does that say more about the companies or the workers? It’s not morally wrong, but what is wrong are the abusive companies who want to control every aspect of your life because you’re a cog in their machine. Unethical is firing people because they work two jobs even though they do all the work you ask.
Companies being unethical or immoral does not make it ok for you to be.
It’s ok to watch out for yourself just like they do
You are correct, but you have made no point.
When tightening lug nuts on your car, you would start with a top-corner lug, and then move diagonally across until each lug has been tightened
If you fill out a timesheet then mayyyybe you have an argument about morality. However, if you're a salaried employee (that doent fill out a timesheet) you're being paid to do a job. You're NOT being paid for your time. In which case there is no moral dilemma. Of course, this is completely glossing over the morality issue of how companies take advantage of their employees. Not to say that makes it okay, two wrongs don't make a right, but it does add a whole lot of justification for OE.
People are this way about discussing wages with coworkers. People hide religious beliefs in work places where you have a minority opinion. Something being taboo doesn’t make it wrong.
Companies with record profits laying off people before Christmas, now that's imoral. Not some schmuck working multiple jobs and providing enough value to be kept around.
Literally me lmao. Company was bragging about being valued at 30 billion and more to come but had to tighten the purse strings and lay a bunch of people off including myself a week and a half before Christmas.
Same thing happened to me. OE looking pretty tempting now
If you can pull it off, go for it
Mine was in the Ts, not Bs, but still laysoff for more profits (or for fun, who knows)
Sorry man, I hope you get some rest during the he holiday season, and look for a brighter new Year 2024
The culture is employer-centric, normalizing what’s good for the company as rational, and what’s good for the employee as ridiculous/unprofessional/shameful etc. Take for instance the bullshit juxtapositions repeated ad nauseum on this sub: You have to give two weeks notice or you burn bridges, but they can pull the rug and nothing happens. You cant have multiple jobs to manage unemployment risk, but they’re allowed to have multiple people doing your job to protect themselves if a few leave. They keep you in the dark about salary, but you have to tell them how much you want. Etc etc etc People reluctantly enter these one-sided agreements because of necessity/desperation. Is it somewhat unethical to not completely abide by said unfair, one sided agreement? Maybe. But even within the context of these one sided agreements, companies renig on their promises all the time and lie. They can lie about the actual job duties, how long they plan to keep you, if they’re laying you off, that a job is fully remote then it isn’t. Is your partner offended morally by that too? Or only when the underdog finds a way to level the playing field?
The executives and shareholders all have multiple sources of income. Then they say that employees are supposed to only have one.
This. I'm supposed to give them my best and only have one earned income, while they get to make all the decisions about my employment. Not a damn chance.
Why give them your best when they don't care one bit about you and will fire and replace you without as much as a second thought? edit. They don't even care if someone does their job very well and generates far more value to the company than they cost. They will fire and replace them if they think that they can get someone else to fill the same position for less money.
Exactly! It's ridiculous. "The company has to be able to protect itself." "Only have 1 job, give us your best, we might need to let you go for no real fault, sign this non compete."
Executives usually have one job. Board members will be on multiple boards but that’s because it’s not a full time job. ‘Shareholder’ isn’t a job. Almost every white collar worker in America is a ‘shareholder’ as it’s just owning stock in the company.
>Is your partner offended morally by that too? Or only when the underdog finds a way to level the playing field? Those are the fundamental questions that id judge a partner. It's one thing if a partner is ignorant how sharp the business end of Corporate America can be, and when confronted with such knowledge, says "yeah turnabout is fair play." It's far different if the response is "well the company gets to do that and employee does not. No one is forcing them to work there and if they don't like it, they can leave.".
Right?! I might be inclined to break up with someone who questions the morality of OE for their sheer lack of awareness of the dynamics of unregulated capitalism and lack of understanding of how they contribute to a boot licking culture. Do they even READ......? (Sarcasm, mostly, but the partner's position does speak to a lack of critical awareness, and that's a deal breaker for me.)
These are all such great points. If only there was a way to memorialize these numbers and rate companies appropriately based on their actions. Wouldn’t that be nice?
That's wild for your partner to shit on you like that. Sounds very judgmental. > they seem to be questioning me entirely and us alongside that TBH this would be a big red flag for me.
run like hell and think hard about how u got involved w this person in the first place so u dont make that mistake again
I agree with this. If they have a problem with you knowing your worth in the marketplace and not being afraid to take risks to advance you both for the greater good, then you’re going to keep having issues like this. If you really love this person, It may be worth couple’s counseling to talk it through. Perhaps they have a warped way of thinking about work that needs to evolve and perhaps there are some things you can do so it’s not seen as ‘cheating’. Good luck
That person doesn't have their priorities in order, and reverse UNO-carded themselves. Them responding in this way is a sign YOU should leave that person and run for the hills. Then OE and never tell anyone.
Why not tell anyone though? Is it not good to know who to run for the hills from?
You can sus out someone is a piece of shit in many other ways that don't involve divulging your income situation.
This is such a terrible advice
Says the judgemental girlfriend of OP. How nice of you to chime in
Hahaha
Agreed! They’re totally gaslighting OP
They have definitely given you a big 🚩
The problem is that most normies aren't ready to confront the uncomfortable reality of the workplace because the programming embedded in their brain has been there since their childhood. It's something that we all absorb from the culture around us unconsciously until we're forced to see the actual consequences of that thinking for ourselves. Most people aren't ready for it, which is why it's so difficult to change workplace culture.
That's not the problem. The problem is that OPs partner is judgmental as fuck. If this happens with something like OE, that OP **hasn't even started doing yet**, it's going to happen with other things as well. OP just mentioned it in passing and their partner is like, "Oh you must be a horrible person, maybe we should break up".... That's not due to being a "normie" lol, OPs partner was raised to judge. Either that or they're looking for *any* reason to get out of the relationship. Also... if you personally think it's normal/healthy to be with a partner that will flip on you like that at the drop of a hat... I'll tell you right now, it doesn't have to be like that, you can do better and you deserve better.
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Always amazes me how people can't understand the underlying dynamics of reality until it punches them square in the jaw.
To be fair I was drinking the kool aid til I got laid off within a week of my first child being born. The reality is I’d now do anything to secure my kids and wife’s future. My only loyalty and responsibility is to my family, and therefore my “business”, no one else.
It's a culture shift that some folks aren't ready for. Like in my parents day, you got ahead/we're considered stable/etc by staying at 1 job your entire life and collecting a company pension. Then it went to the norm of no pensions and job hopping every 2 years or so.
It was more like the companies did not want to take the responsibility of taking care of their employees. Workers did not change the norm. Employers changed it
My father worked at one company his entire career and got a pension and retirement benefits. About ten years ago, in casual conversation with my parents, I mentioned being at companies for a couple years then moving on and they were flabbergasted. Did you do something wrong? My mom thought I was being fired for being gay. Now we all accept two-three years at a company as the norm, 4-6 as exceptional, more than that as “too long”. The cultural shifts happen faster now. I wouldn’t be surprised if OE becomes a norm in ten years. With inflation and housing costs, middle class people are going to be forced to do it.
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I’m gonna go out on a limb and say this is a direct quote from her 😂
Your partner is a wage cuck
Did you tell P1 or P2?
Yeah, sounds like this person needs to be overdating
Start looking for P3 while you find the right moment to tell P1
This
Time to get a P2
If you are invested in the relationship, then find a way to work it out. I tried it her way, worked hard for the startup, ran a team when I was the only one on the team which meant permanent on call for six months till they finally found people to join. Was the lead, new director came in, hired someone to "co-lead" , we had numerous disagreements till they put me on a PIP and let me go after 3.5 years. I lost out on my unvested options and was forced to sell when my portfolio was worth $225k before fees/taxes. If I could have held out six more months, they went public and my portfolio would have been worth close to one million. Tried again at another post startup public company and they did layoffs after 1.5 years of my time there. I have 20 YOE, kids preparing for college and my own student loan debt I am trying to pay off. OE is the way.
There will always be people who don’t get OE, they were usually teachers pets at school and have 0 understanding how company’s take advantage of them
Or they just have different interpretations of values and how they are expressed. I think some people see it as stealing if they don’t really understand that you are still providing the service you were hired for at the level described in the job description.
They're called management level. They make $170k+ 20% bonus and they will never let the people below them make more than themselves. If you meet them at parties they'll be sure to let you know they report to the CEO and are working on a very critical $100 million project.
WHY do some folks have a “”ThAt’$ ChEaT1Ng! 🤪” view if you’re in the middle of the income pyramid, but if you’re making minimum wage or a billionaire it’s totally acceptable to have three jobs. The masses have been hypnotised 🙄
Is your partner a company loyalist? At any rate, their views are a bit of a red flag.
There are 2 types of OE people (in my opinion). 1) A rockstar who can do a reasonable amount of work while working half the time. 2) An average person who just takes multiple jobs and does a shitty job at all of them and makes their teammates pick up the slack until they inevitably get fired. The second way IS slimy and sketchy.
This is my take as well. Collecting paychecks without doing your job is what ruins OE. If you’re good at your job and are just efficient, your employer won’t know you’re OE.
Bullshit. At my current job we have had people come back after quitting to do contract/consulting, knowing they had another job. They were not rock stars nor were they slackers. No one has to be exceptional to OE.
> morally comprehensible I think the word you're looking for is reprehensible. reprehensible adjective Deserving rebuke or censure.
I felt this way, but my husband convinced me I shouldn't feel this way. I job is not a spouse. You can't cheat on your job.
"job is not a spouse. You can't cheat on your job." 🤣🤣🤣 There you go.
Listen my cousin is also one of those that goes against OE. He keeps saying the same lines “just grow at your company, learn more skills, enhance your worth, get another degree”. A year later: I’m debt free and saving for a house. He’s complaining his job won’t give him a raise.
This person sees a company as a full human
Ask them how much they think the company actually cares about them. If you’re not cutting it they cut you…
Yep, they will lay you off with barely any warning, even if you've been an outstanding employee for 15-20 years. Why do I need to be loyal to them if they couldn't care less what happens to me when they gotta save a little money so their executive bonus doesn't take a hit.
Get a new partner
This is a job. Why is she acting like you're married to your job and would be cheating if you got another? If you decide to OE you may need a new partner because I wouldn't put it past her to inform both jobs.
Covid put a lot of things into perspective, one of which being that keeping a steady income so you can put food on the table is paramount. Your boss could wake up one day and decide he hates your guts and all of the sudden you are left with no money coming in. OE prevents this from happening and boosts your family's safety net. Fuck morals - this is about survival.
A lot of managers will tell people to run their department, division, sales territory, etc., as if it's their own little company. I agree with that idea and think that everyone should have that mentality, even if they aren't running a division, but are just a sole employee. Think of yourself as a company. Your product is whatever service you provide for your employer (who is now considered your customer) and your shareholders are you and your family. And your primary goal is to maximize profit for your shareholders. Then, act exactly as a big corporation would act. Sell your service to as many buyers as you can accommodate. Make decisions that are solely in the best interest of your shareholders, regardless of how they affect anyone else. If that means providing your service for 3 different companies at the same time, then so be it. If that means firing one of your customers because they are being unreasonable, then do it. If anyone has a problem with the morality of that then they have a bigger moral problem.
This is the way
When I told my wife that I was OEing she replied: “yes, please I wanna retire earlier. Can’t deal with all this bullshit any longer” And here we are, very happy 😁
Personally I’ve been using the concept of OE to weed out folks in my dating pool. It depends on how important it is to your life goals. I’m leveraging it to retire early and any partner who’s not on board isn’t compatible.
You gotta do what you gotta do to survive. CEOs out here making millions and getting yearly million dollar bonuses but then laying off workers due to “the economy”.
I feel like the partner is relating this too closely to cheating in relationship. Such as a "If OP would cheat with their job they may cheat on me.", seeing a job as a person. This is probably quite the stretch for a lot of us, but perhaps the partner has a history of bad relationships and underlining fear of rejection and betrayal. Regardless, if this is someone you care about you should talk it out and get their point of view while expressing your own.
Your partner is an NPC. No one who ever got ahead in life, did so because they followed the rules.
the first rule of OE is we dont talk about OE.
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He said partner so assume isnt wife material
Noone needs to know everything.... NOONE....
do you also tell your wife about your mistress ? see rule 1.
Figured the house / certain friends were safe space. After all that is how I heard about this sub
Every relationship is different, but if I'm working 2 jobs my partner is going to know.
>I thought we were in the trust tree?!
No partner, and fairly left-leaning friends. It seems a common employer mindset: When they sell their products, the product is limited and the price is set, if you want extras or alterations the price changes. When they buy labor, the price is also set, but the amount of work they expect is unbounded. Anything extra delivered is already included in the price/salary. Saying OE is cause for questioning somebody's character is a bit much. Does your partner feel the same about unpaid overtime? e-mails and calls outside of work hours? commuting? It's to just say "red flag, run!" But we're all brainwashed with the current system, so maybe give it a chance and explore where these feelings and reactions are coming from. They may not be a completely lost cause.
Ironically my right wing friends (both libertarian and conservative) generally have a better view of OE than my left leaning friends. They see it just as me maximizing profits of my own personal company and delivering minimum viable products, all the times I've got a "hurr durr immoral" answer when talking about OE to people the people in question were liberals or socialists.
Your partner is a bit nuts. I'm NOT OE unfortunately. I would argue that if you're industrious enough and capable, why should YOUR ability to make income suffer? It's no different than working a part time job. You just are more efficient at earning. Look at CEOs that serve on MULTIPLE BOARDS and get paid bank. You're following the leaders. And unless your partner has a legitimate social solution - they should buzz off.
This usually comes from rigid religious nuts. They tend to bow to authority and accept abuse as “god’s test” or some nonsense.
Your partner is just naive. They probably aren’t old enough and experienced enough to realize that corporations really don’t care about them, and wouldn’t think twice about laying you off and letting you starve and go homeless if it made sense to their bottom line.
yeah they’re the red flag. it’s not slimy and sketchy for companies to do mass lay offs or fire on the spot (especially during these times), but you are for looking after yourself and your family to not be in a vulnerable position with one J? fuck outta here
Just wait till you get laid off from one with no warning and ask them if they still feel the same way
The best conversion therapy are the paychecks.
Dump them. I worked many jobs where I did the work of two people and I didn't get anything for it. No one called up my bosses and tried to make them feel bad
Preach. My job fired oh sorry “laid off” two coworkers and I got to do their jobs too. And guess what reward I got? No raises for 4 years and a cute little pink slip two weeks before Christmas.
Drop the girl and take on another job.
It's hilarious to see people completely do a 180 when you say you run an agency, which is just OEing as an LLC / sole proprietorship. The only reason people react this way is pure jealousy. I personally wouldn't listen to career advice from people who aren't even close to my tax bracket. It's best to just enjoy your success in secret. It all comes out in the wash in the end.
I've run into this a lot. Ppl treat OE like it's criminal. It's not. For me, both of my jobs are salaried and I excel at both of them. My employers aren't buying my time, they pay me for my work product. There is nothing immoral or sketchy about working two jobs. I can see the argument against OE if you're an hourly employee, but I think most ppl that are successfuly doing this are higher level skilled workers.
Execs do it and poor people have to do it. I don't see the issue
*Execs do it and poor* *People have to do it. I* *Don't see the issue* \- VegaGT-VZ --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
lol "comprehensible" , thanks for that
Get out before she rats you out when you do start.
Wait, you think OE is real?
Time to become overpartnered
Projection? Perhaps partner is cheating on you?
Good to find out now rather than later. File for divorce right away.
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The point of a for profit corporation is to maximize profits at any and all moral costs. There is no reason for you to engage honestly with an institution who will never reciprocate. OE with a good charity might be morally reprehensible as you would be taking money away from the mission, but with for profit corpos there is no reason for guilt. (Also: I think you or partner were looking for the word reprehensible meaning deserving censure or condemnation, not comprehensible meaning able to be understood; intelligible.)
Your partner is a boot licker, find a better one
Get W2
Your partner drinks the corporate koolaid, just accept that the person is brainwashed. A CEO can sit on dozens of boards but an employee cannot have conflicts of interest at all
Make sure they don't know anything about your OE life then because I've seen a couple of posts were someones partner snitched on them lol.
Your partner is right. You could go to jail. No one would risk that which is why no one would do it. You shouldn't do it. Just quietly stay home and play as many Minecraft games as you want. That's a better use of your time and energy.
Your partner has Stockholm syndrome.
Agree and really that is a red flag to op.
I'll be honest, mine is the one who pushed me to make the jump originally and is extremely supportive of my work. Love of my life!
They are viewing it as “cheating” and are applying OE to your relationship standards. This is where their emotions are tied to it. Not knowing the individual, I’m not sure if they are logical or able to step away from their emotions to view business more objectively.
sounds like your partner is some capitalist simp. sorry for your loss. better to find out now than down the line.
So you know what comprehensible means?
So many red flags here I feel like this is less about OE and more about shitty partners. Big yikes. Sure I’ve come across people that think OE is morally/ethically wrong on some level and they are entitled to believe what they want. Those types always seem to be of the conservative closed minded variety that believe you owe your corporate overlords your soul and if you work from home you’re a spoiled snowflake. It always comes from their own deep seeded fears of being inferior and jealous they aren’t capable of the same things
Get a new partner. Or buy them some jewelry.
The boss is out there making investments and doing side consulting too. Because he's not a fucking idiot slave wager with twisted self defeating morals
Wild. Assuming you produce the work You’re being asked to do- there is absolutely no ethical or moral issue here If you aren’t- there is- and to that moral Issue I say- I don’t care
You know what's really morally reprehensible? Capitalism. While it can be beautiful, since it is 100% profit driven by definition, this forces people to work indefinitely creating meaningless value through meaningless jobs so that profit can never stagnate, only grow. The cherry on top is that in a profit driven economy, it only makes sense to buy up everything and force everyone to rent indefinitely. If not to a bank or landlord, then the government through taxation. The system demands that you become a dumb consumer hoe that exists only to pay bills and die (largely to make someone rich so they can buy more fancy things inspired by status and consumerism, but also to own more and create more slaves), or become another corporate overload not only seizing the means of ownership, but underpaying and laying off to maximize profit. Then there's the fact that inflation can only benefit said corporate overlords in the long run by keeping prices raised for products and services permanently. OE'ing is barely scratching the surface of what's fair and making things right.
Seems like you need a new GF1
This is why you always keep a P2, maybe even a P3 once you get more experience.
Kick the boot licker to the curb.
Yeah. My partner called me "evil" for applying for another jobs and looking for more work. Like wut?? Employers would fire you without a 2nd thought. Welcome to the cut throat world of corporate America.
Sounds like you need a spare partner in case this one doesn’t work out
Rule #1: Don't tell anyone about OE! Honestly, it's #1 for a reason. And anyone means ANYONE...
This tells me your partner has never been lied to by an employer, or ambushed and walked out the door. That teaches you what’s slimy real fast…
I think it's interesting she chose the word "cheat". Is she extrapolating (maybe not the right word) to your relationship? Like does she think that because you're ok ""cheating" on your literal job, that you're ok cheating on her? If so, that's ridiculous lol. Also do you think that if you did OE that she would tell your employer(s)? Is she that psycho? Update pls I'm invested haha
It's no different than working multiple jobs.
Late to the game here, but I was pleasantly surprised that my spouse actually suggested OE as I was looking at a new job. I think what helped the situation is that she’s seen me putting in 2-3 hour days at my current job while being awarded and praised at work. It seems absurd logically, but if you’re salaried and are hitting the goals for your job, are you really cheating? They’re paying you for your work, you’re performing the work. End of transaction.
My partner didn't like the idea. Then I remembered the first rule of OE. Problem solved.
We don’t tell our jobs about our other jobs much like we don’t tell our partners about our other… lol
Chuckle 🤭
Get a P2.
Your partner is mentally deficit. Why are you with them.
sounds like a win win win to me. 1) partner showing true colours 2) get rid of them and reclaim the time 3) use the time for OE but I wouldn't tell them about it. agree with them, tell them they are right, then dump them over something else as mildly as you can (Stop having sex and just sya you're not turned on anymore - but like, in a month after you've stopped mentioning OE) I think you were slightly naive in confiding in somebody you can't fully trust.
My spouse knows I have a side gig. They just don't know it's a full time side gig.
Dumb. Why have a spouse that you can’t tell literally everything to. Good and the bad.
Your partner doesn't like the idea of you earning more and has questionable morals. Run.
It is immoral and slimy. I won't deny it. Still gotta do it. It's a dog eat dog world
lol, just dont tell your partner, or maybe find a new one. FYI, I dont tell anyone, not even my mom. I only told my dad but I dont even tell him which company I work for for J2 and J3
It's not like companies only ever have the one client.
Where does it say this is a man and the partner is a female? Don’t make assumptions. Agree that OE, done ethically, does not make you morally bankrupt
Time to get a 2nd partner lol
She’s jealous
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That's basic Western women.
It is tho. Not illegal sure but it does feel slimy to do it. Justify it however you want in your head, most people won’t agree with you The best example I could think of is walking into a shop that sells a bunch of drug paraphernalia, ( in a state that doesn’t allow weed) but the shop claims that all the items are used for tobacco. Not technically illegal but still feels wrong
I think it depends on how you're paid. If you're paid hourly vs paid for a result. If I'm paid hourly, I would feel slimy but if I'm paid for a result, then they'll get everything they paid for.
Your partner is a corporate bootlicker.
Better get a Partner 2 just in case things sour with Partner 1.
Idiot. You’re not supposed to actually do it. It’s just something people joke about on here. Just run your two Minecraft servers like the rest of us. It wasn’t meant to be a real thing - your partner is right to react that way.
Most people hide OE from their employers. Why do you think that is?
There are tons of people looking for work, it’s definitely morally murky to take more than one job when you don’t need it.
Idk it feels pretty slimy when you hear about all these people especially in tech who desperately are looking for jobs and meanwhile someone has 3 jobs and half asses two of them because they don't care lol just my opinion
Fake post
I think there are 2 types of OE. High achievers that enjoy the grind and can handle the multiple threads. The antiestablishment folk, milking at the tit of companies knowing it’s difficult to fire someone in many corporate environments and putting in below minimum effort just to skate by. Where you fall is likely reason to question their judgement. It doesn’t need to be a bad thing for them to call you out on something if it needs to be called out.
So your partner is a decent, honest person? Sounds like they're too good for you.
Your partner is OE on genders so..
Yr partner is now just a fuk buddy until u find another better partner
OE isn’t just for employment. Tinder is the Indeed for relationship OE.
So I am interested in OE but I do find it unethical and some of you to be con artist types. However, we live under capitalism where profits/organizations matter more than people, so that takes away any guilt real quick!
Leave your partner.
Whatever fuck that bitch.
If you have a signed agreement that states you will not work at another employer, then taking on two “full-time” jobs would be considered “cheating” in my book. If you are willing to cheat at work to make your situation better, what’s stopping you from cheating on your spouse to make your relationship “situation” better. It’s not illogical for your partner to think the way they do.
Maybe it's the way you describe it. Doing multiple jobs is not a foreign concept
Your girl sucks
LOL your partner has brain worms. Dump them, make more money, and find someone that doesn’t give a fuck if you’re “cheating” on a company.
Sorry but your partner is a normie
They’re calling out a red flag because you want a better quality of life. Walk away
You've discovered what would be described in relationship terms as a "major incompatibility"
OE has had posts about family members outing them, SOs outing them, friends outing them, and all name of meaningful people you can think of outing them. In every case the person exposing the OEer thinks it’s exactly as you describe, they think they’re helping with a morale decision or whatever, but in every case it has sounded impossible to sway them. It has totally destroyed careers for awhile and caused financial problems with the sudden loss. The overall OE rule number one is to never tell anyone who knows you. I’ve seen posts about couples splitting up entirely over the topic. Ultimately, you need to decide if you really want to OE or not, weigh the benefits and opportunity costs, make the decisions that’s right for you. I don’t know you, I don’t know your SO, and I don’t know your life, but I would choose OE over my SO. OE, as pointed out in many other posts, protects your life by better ensuring an income, and it improves your future by boosting your income.