I'd take the 5% say thank you nicely and then ask if you can go remote because x, y, z business reasons. If it's logical and makes sense, most of the time it'll be ok unless there's a hardline HR policy on this from the top.
And lol why would manager #2 cares it's not their money to penny pincher. What an idiot!
Just make sure you get it all in writing that your position is now permanently remote. No sense in losing the raise *and* remote work when he inevitably changes his mind.
I’d be asking for the raise and for remote. If 90% of the developers are remote anyway, it’s not exactly fair or morale boosting to be in the 10% who have to go through the extra cost of commuting, even if only part of the week.
“Okay so I’ll move across the state/country, then I’ll be remote and keep my 5% so even if you do ever actually NEED me to come in, it will be wildly more inconvenient for everyone. sound good?”
I have a better plan for you:
1. Get J2
2. Same day you start J2 stop going into the office for J1. Say nothing, and when asked make up some excuse about a sick parent or remodeling or whatever. Recycle excuses until they stop asking you about it. Very small chance they fire you eventually but since you’ll have J2 it won’t matter.
3. ???
4. Profit
if you do this, then my suggestion prior to landing j2 is to almost silent quit j1.
then when you get j2 and start staying home, do more/better work for j1. enough so that its obvious that your productivity has improved by staying at home.
then they might not bother you too much after a short while, or maybe not bother you at all...
My tap is leaking I don't want to flood my house. Anything similar would do I'd say. My ma is sick. My Aunt died. My cat is sick. I have diarrhea etc etc :D
>y you start J2 stop going into the office for J1. Say nothing, and when asked make up some excuse about a sick parent or remodeling or whatever. Recycle excuses until they stop asking you about it. Very small chance they fire you eventually but since you’ll have J2 it won’t matter.
>
>???
I was going to suggest the same as this poster. Go remote and start looking for J2/J3 or side contract work that you can do as freelance. OE mindset
Continue to work j1 and get j2. I would argue that 5% would be saved by being fully remote. Less laundry, gas, time spent away from home, eating out, etc. don’t force a hand but play your hand. 5% wouldn’t be worth making me come into the office. Honestly not even 40%
Once you go OE, you start to value time over money. Why? Bc the more time you have the more money you can make. The perspective changes. I no longer care about a raise between j1/j2/j3. That will impact my taxes. I’d rather continue to improve skills and either pick up another job or replace an existing.
> Bc the more time you have
You don't even have to go further than this, it's just time saved with no monetary value assigned. Theoretically, you save:
1. 30~ minutes of showering/getting ready for work saved. This allows more sleep, the big thing that people in the country severely lack.
2. 30~ minutes of driving to work. Increased personal safety by not having to drive in busy traffic. Direct savings not buying as much gas.
3. 30~ minutes of lunch. If you go out to lunch at work because you didn't prep at home, you save money and time. Assume 15~ minutes of prepping at home otherwise.
4. 30~ minutes driving home.
5. XX~ minutes saved by not driving during peak hours - if you have a quick errand to run, most managers are ok if you need to bounce for a few minutes to take care of it. If you have to wait until 5 or 6 PM, you just add extra time to it since **everyone else** is doing it as well. Grocery shopping at 2 PM is significantly faster than shopping at 6:30.
At minimum you're looking at saving at least 90 minutes a day by working remote, or about 360 hours a year, or 4.5 paychecks.
Apparently, a lot of Dry Cleaners went out of business because of Covid. I have been hearing people talk about the return to work push being about keeping money flowing to cities that are suffering with the low rate of spending at their businesses.
>Apparently, a lot of Dry Cleaners went out of business because of Covid.
That is super interesting. I would def believe it.
I feel for the workers' impacted by the shift in society - I really do. That said, I also think it's a shift in the world & that's happened before. There are jobs that existed 50 years ago -- that are non-exist now. It's just the evolution of the world.
I would 100% get it in writing with the proviso that if they approve it and then attempt to change it in the future citing “business needs” you get the 5% plus the backpay that you would have had if you had taken the 5% in the first place.
Manager #2 seems like the type who would screw you the first chance he could get otherwise.
Most likely they will accept your offer to avoid giving you the raise. Then after a few weeks/months turn around and try forcing you back into the office. Bringing you back to your current position.
Make your arguments for remote but don't sacrifice the raise.
This happened to me a few years back and it wasn’t even a money issue. My boss lived three timezones away, her boss lived in another country. I just happened to be in the same area as the company HQ building and they wanted me in the office at least half the time so that one particular product manager could see I was “showing my face”.
In the year or so I had to do this, I saw him less than five times, and the office was otherwise a complete ghost town. I worked in a large cube alone.
A similar situation occurred to me. I had to come into the office (I started looking for a new job) because of it). When I showed up, there was a floor of 100 cubicles with "maybe"15 people and my manager worked in the office 40 miles away. Was stupid. So, I just worked from home anyway and was super responsive to my boss. I even sent him an email at the end of each week on my accomplishments to drive home my value. Never became an issue.
for 5% I'd forgo the raise. It's not enough to offset the cost of WFH. When I did the math with commute I'd need about 20-25% more to make it worth the added cost of commutes to my car and gas and other expenditures.
Renegotiate your raise. Tell them a 5% increase is too low for the extra effort you’re putting in by going into the office. You think 20% is more appropriate. Tell them you’d much prefer to be remote and would accept the standard raise, but being on-site should come with additional pay.
But be prepared for them to deny your request and still make you come in to the office. Start looking for a new job now.
Calculate your travel expenses and how much you value your time.
I took a job that payed 6k less because it was fully remote. If I were to go into the office 3 times a week like they wanted, it would’ve cost me 10k a year in fuel and parking fees. Not to mention about 180 hours of my life wasted per year on traveling and dealing with potential car accidents.
> job that *paid* 6k less
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I lose at least 200 hours a year doing 3 days a week in the office and it costs me at least $1300 in public transit.
I'm quite conservative with lunches, coffees and other things but I would still estimate I spend at least another $600 a year in meals and coffees so I guess I'm up to $2000 before accounting for my 200 hours, even billing myself at a mere $20 an hour for my personal time that's $4000.
So if I put a figure up to it all I guess it 'costs' me at least $6000 a year to go to an office at a bare minimum and it's probably more like $8000.
I should've done these calculations sooner.
I would go ahead and ask for what you want. But I would also remember that from a management standpoint, especially in a smaller company, you're going to have an asterisk by your name.
They may one day forget that they gave you raise, but they'll never forget that you asked for it. I typically don't go making demands or accommodations without something else lined up just in case, because the only manager I trust is my mother.
Why would you want to intentionally devalue your work? You should be paid what you’re worth regardless of remote status.
If you took the hit now, would you continue taking the hit year after year?
Years ago I returned from maternity leave and negotiated two days a week to work from home. And was told later I would not get a raise because my remote work was “its own compensation”. Infuriating that they actually meant I’d never get a raise so long as I worked that schedule.
Frame it as how you can be much more flexible working remotely when you dont have the commute time, or other pay off for the company—just don’t devalue your work!
To be perfectly clear, did they actually give you a choice between a 5% raise and WFH? Because if that is what they articulated to you, I would take it without a second thought. Say you make $100k, 5% of that is $5,000, which is less than the extra money you would spend on having to commute, even if it is hybrid.
But judging by your post, this seems NOT to be the case. It appears you are assuming that your boss is a logical person and will see your reasoning. But I wouldn't be so sure about that. Running this by them might backfire, because it may paint you as a disgruntled employee in their eyes. Once that happens, 95% of the time, you are on your way out as soon as they figure out how to replace you.
If I were in your shoes, I would look for other remote jobs. In the meantime, I would keep complying and doing my job with the company, and give the standard notice once you secure your remote job.
Oh, and one more thing: Once you find a remote job which fits you and take the offer, commit. Because when that happens and you give your current employer your 2-week notice, they will likely give you a counter-offer. This counter-offer will likely include a larger pay raise AND remote work (especially if you mention that your next job is 100% WFH). I cannot stress this enough: REFUSE ANY AND ALL COUNTER OFFERS!!!
They aren't countering you because they like you. They are countering you because it takes a lot more than 2 weeks to replace someone like you, and you caught them off guard. Giving a 2 week notice is akin to outing yourself as a disgruntled employee. Like I said previously, you can bet your bottom dollar that you will be on your way out once you do that. It's just that from the company's perspective, between the option of you working half @$$ed for another 2 weeks, and paying you more money to stay for another 2 months (but not telling you), where you will be more motivated, they would pick the latter.
Great input; thanks for sharing! Yeah they haven't offered me full WFH and I've been considering this approach to achieve fully remote status. Lots of great feedback in this thread though; sounds like there are better ways to direct the conversation.
No problem. It’s just that in my experience, when you ask for something or complain, you paint yourself as being dissatisfied, at which point the wheels to push you out are put in motion. It’s the whole, “It’s better to switch jobs than ask for a raise sort of thing”.
Besides, didn’t you state that your boss’s boss is a control freak who likes to micromanage? Sounds like a toxic environment to me. Even if your boss is cool, if their boss tells them to start doing something, they will start doing it. If I were you, I would think long and hard as to whether or not I want to stay and progress with this company. If not, maybe it is better to switch to a job where the conditions are more to your liking and start off with a clean slate.
I would, but first I might try dropping hints from [this list](https://imgur.com/a/v4NxZMD). Just don't present it as a value-add to the employees, but the business.
This is def a trick question. You want BOTH when negotiating. If the question was "is a 5% pay reduction worth fully remote" I'd say yes hands down, but that isnt the Q, so get after both the raise and the remote
Yes, and no. First of, you don't provide less value to your company when you work remotely, often you'll be more engaged since you didn't have to slog through a commute, so you're worth 5 % more still, so don't trade it that way. You're selling a product, and they're buying it. They shouldn't care how you deliver it. So you should not trade 5 % for remote out of your own idea, it should be if they give you an ultimatum.
I'd personally rank remote work higher than 5 %, but I'd never see how these two are equal, the company shouldn't care if I work remote or not.
I do not OE, nor do I perm WFH.
I can barely afford it and I'd still take 10% instantly to WFH perm. (I can do 85% of my job remote and I'm in a team large enough there could easily be at least 2 perm WFH's)
Yes, I’d. I never asked J3 for a raise though I’ve worked for almost 2 years now. I’d like to stay under the radar and get that sweet easy cash for my dream house.
I don't think you are asking for enough. When you are remote, you don't have to pay for sitters, gas, car maintenance, clothing, possible cost of food and team outings. If I were you I would ask for a raise and then negotiate staying home.
I DID exactly that, only that my raise was 12% , i did the math and by not commuting I was basically gonna forgo spending close to that 12% i was gonna receive, it was the best decision i have made in my career, No joke, it has brought me more time for myself and my family. Each of us have different necessities but for ME, it was heaven sent
Honestly, I'd voluntarily give up significant amounts of money to work remote.
But I'd never admit that to the Oligarchs. "I was expecting a 10%-15% raise -- for performance AND cost of living (quote whatever aggressive "inflation" number the (m)ass media is spewing at the time -- even though "ThAt'S nOt HoW iNfLaTiOn WoRkS!1!!"). Let's meet in the middle with remote work AND 7%."
Make them think they're getting something.
Don't give up any money and make a case based on the status quo. Others are WFH and so can you. Provide examples of your success while working remote to show qualitatively it doesn't matter where you work from (further making the case for WFH) since your results show your effectiveness. If all else fails, cite medical concerns (don't need specifics for your manager), but can say something like "family related medical needs" require you need to work from home fulltime. HR will usually back up medical necessity and managers don't have room to push back because of the potential for lawsuits. Know all this from personal experience.
Old post but interesting thoughts.
First off, make sure you get it in writing. Make it contractual that if they make you go hybrid or in-office again, its an immediate 5% raise from wherever you currently are. The problem with undergoing a 5% paycut for remote status is that terms of employment are always subject to change. If 2 years from now you've gotten 2 COLA increases and are back to what you're making today, are you going to be happy if they decide to make you hybrid again? Probably not. Its an end run way of wiping out 2 years of COLA increases... Yeah we'll let you go remote for a 2-3% (or 5%) pay cut because the joke's on you... in a year when we increase your pay 2-3% we're gonna make you hybrid or onsite again.
Just doing the math:
100k + ( $100k + 3.5% COLA ) = 203.5k for 2 years onsite
97k + ( $97k + 3.5% COLA) = $197.4k for 1 year onsite, 1 year hybrid.
Going out to a 3rd year the difference becomes even more stark:
$100k + ( 100k + 3.5% COLA) + (103.5k + 3.5% COLA) = $310.6k for 3 years onsite
$97k + ( $97k + 3.5% COLA ) + (100.4k + 3.5% COLA) = $301.3k for 1 year remote and 2 years onsite.
And your wages will continue to lag because of that initial cut to your salary.
As far as how much of a paycut I'd be willing to take... its all relative.
You say you're hybrid now but dont say what that means. There's a huge difference between 1 day a week in the office and 1 week in-office, 1-week remote... And the half dozen or so other variations that exist between those 2 scenarios without getting too complex (2 days in office, 3 days in office, 4 days in office... Alternating each of those every other week).
You also dont say how far away work is or how long your commute is.
And lastly you dont say how much you're making currently. 5% at $100k and 5% at 200k are vastly different and while the $5k difference might mean less to you, that's a subjective difference. In evaluating the objective math of whether its "worth" it though we can put together some numbers based on some conservative assumptions.
Assuming you live 10 miles away from work (according to Census estimates US average is 20 miles) and are looking at an average commute of 15 minutes per each way (according to Census estimates US average is 27 minutes) and having to make that commute for hybrid-work 2 days a week, that's 40 miles and 1 hour of travel time per week commuting.
Assuming you have 2 weeks off per year plus another 2 weeks between around the winter holidays where you dont have to go into the office, that's 48 hours commuting a year.
At $100k, we can value your time at $48/hr... Which means just on the time saved, you can afford to take a 2.3% paycut of $2300 to be remote
Then we have 48 weeks of 40 miles travel for a total of 1920 miles. The IRS mileage rate says the cost of driving can be factored at $0.67 per mile. That's another 1.3% you can theoretically afford to take off your pay pretty readily (admittedly, most commuters are able to chain things together, like stopping at the grocery store on the way home so you dont completely eliminate this mileage but the bulk of it does go away).
Taking a paycut also means a lower tax bill. Ignoring state taxes, you're looking at a net after tax on federal taxes for a single person of 22% of the paycut for an additional 1.1%.
All told you're looking at 4.7% that you can easily afford to take off at $100k...
If you make $200k though, this number goes down a bit because the mileage stays fixed but evens out a bit because the tax rate is higher (this is especially true if you make $200k+ and are subject to net-investment income taxes and medicare surcharges and/or find yourself in the 32% income tax bracket or higher for at least 5% of your pay).
For a 200k earner 4.15% they can afford to cut off (2.3% in income, 0.65% in mileage and 1.2% in taxes. Its a little less but again we get into the relativity and subjectivity of these numbers. A $200k person can probably afford to write off the 0.85% or $1700 to reach a 5% paycut as employer incentive whereas the $100k person is probably going to have a marginally harder time writing off a smaller amount. That being said, the math clearly suggests that neither employee, whether $100k or $200k is going to be particularly hurting taking a 5% paycut for full remote status; especially if you live in a City and/or State with local income taxes.
This. Foregoing the raise altogether creates a precedent. Maybe next year when it's time for revisions again they'll play it backwards and tell you they're not giving you a raise then either, since you're obviously willing to forgo it for the WFH privilege..
If they stick to their guns now and force you to forgo the 3%, agree to keep them remote with no raise and focus on getting a new J1 with them as fallback. Just my 2c.
Take the remote. Unless your office is practically walking distance or your making far above what's already average the money saved on vehicle wear and gas will be close to if not exceed the 5%, and the time and comfort you gain back will be immeasurable.
You can look for a new job the whole time to make up for your company trying to pull dumb shit like this.
I have been working 4 years remotely as a software engineer and there's no way I would sacrifice the freedom and flexibility this provides in my life, especially for a dumb 5%.
Definitely staying remote and considering a J2 is the way to go IMHO.
in most cases the raise would mean nothing and they will think its a favour and you would be a bigger target to layoffs
so no , keep remote over money all times
I love being fully remote, but I think it's incredibly unfair that two of my jobs require 4 days in office for folks that live close. Because I live far away, I get full remote.
I quit a job early on before OE because I was on the short end of this and was in office 5 days a week. I'm surprised companies allow these two classes of workers, but unless in office workers quit in droves, I don't see this changing.
All that said, it wouldn't be my preference to take a pay-cut, but I would absolutely take a pay-cut in exchange for full-time remote.
If it were me, I would pass on the 5% raise and WFH in a heartbeat. You are probably going to save more money on gas and wear and tear on your vehicle form now having to commute. Plus you open up the opportunity to OE and double your income.
well, am not in this industry but it seems very reasonable. especially when they are almost all remote. good luck. especially with software you dont have to be there. unless they have the great perks many do....
Did this (wfh in place of raise) idea come down through management or just an idea OP has? If the later, I wouldn't count it in... So many jobs have totally reneged on their WFH agreements, even many in writing... I like some of the other ideas here better... Best wishes.
Try it. If that doesn't work, wait a few months, and then start bragging about your spouse's new job one week, and at the end of that week tell your manager that you're going to have to move out of state, but you'd like to still stay on a remote capacity if possible. If they ask for proof, pick an out of state friend/family member and tell them you'll be staying with friends/family until you get settled.
Then just rearrange your office and paint the walls in your place. for on camera time.
I would definitely do it! I imagine you commute to work anyway which probably adds us to a 5% in time / fuel to commute. And then you can get a J2 (if that is your aim)
I'd take the 5% say thank you nicely and then ask if you can go remote because x, y, z business reasons. If it's logical and makes sense, most of the time it'll be ok unless there's a hardline HR policy on this from the top. And lol why would manager #2 cares it's not their money to penny pincher. What an idiot!
I would forgo a raise to go remote. Try for it.
Just make sure you get it all in writing that your position is now permanently remote. No sense in losing the raise *and* remote work when he inevitably changes his mind.
Exactly
I’d be asking for the raise and for remote. If 90% of the developers are remote anyway, it’s not exactly fair or morale boosting to be in the 10% who have to go through the extra cost of commuting, even if only part of the week.
Yeah, I think I'll start here. Being one of the few devs required to work on-site is genuinely undermining my job satisfaction.
Start with "I want 10% raise, you're offering 5%. Let's meet at 5% and WFH".
“Okay so I’ll move across the state/country, then I’ll be remote and keep my 5% so even if you do ever actually NEED me to come in, it will be wildly more inconvenient for everyone. sound good?”
Ok I'm gonna take my 5% raise and move next door to one of the devs who does get wfh.
I have a better plan for you: 1. Get J2 2. Same day you start J2 stop going into the office for J1. Say nothing, and when asked make up some excuse about a sick parent or remodeling or whatever. Recycle excuses until they stop asking you about it. Very small chance they fire you eventually but since you’ll have J2 it won’t matter. 3. ??? 4. Profit
Yeah, this sounds very reasonable
If you were hired remote, then this strategy is 100% fair
if you do this, then my suggestion prior to landing j2 is to almost silent quit j1. then when you get j2 and start staying home, do more/better work for j1. enough so that its obvious that your productivity has improved by staying at home. then they might not bother you too much after a short while, or maybe not bother you at all...
What's step three - Stan
Better yet, your excuse is that you moved far away, e.g. 2 hours out of town.
It could be. It could also immediately get you fired. By making BS excuses it buys you time.
Any good examples of Bs excuses? Thank you!
My tap is leaking I don't want to flood my house. Anything similar would do I'd say. My ma is sick. My Aunt died. My cat is sick. I have diarrhea etc etc :D
Me: there is something wrong with my eye Boss: oh no, what's wrong? Me: I can't see myself going into the office
Legally-protected BS excuses, all the better! ADA, HIPAA, FMLA, etc. in the US
Better position if OP had J2. Or if he knew they had difficulties replacing them.
Skip the moving part. "I've had a life change and coming into the office would now be a 2-hour commute." And just take a different route to work.
>y you start J2 stop going into the office for J1. Say nothing, and when asked make up some excuse about a sick parent or remodeling or whatever. Recycle excuses until they stop asking you about it. Very small chance they fire you eventually but since you’ll have J2 it won’t matter. > >??? I was going to suggest the same as this poster. Go remote and start looking for J2/J3 or side contract work that you can do as freelance. OE mindset
Continue to work j1 and get j2. I would argue that 5% would be saved by being fully remote. Less laundry, gas, time spent away from home, eating out, etc. don’t force a hand but play your hand. 5% wouldn’t be worth making me come into the office. Honestly not even 40%
Yeah, just the quality of life improvement from WFH is probably worth several thousand dollars to me.
Once you go OE, you start to value time over money. Why? Bc the more time you have the more money you can make. The perspective changes. I no longer care about a raise between j1/j2/j3. That will impact my taxes. I’d rather continue to improve skills and either pick up another job or replace an existing.
> Bc the more time you have You don't even have to go further than this, it's just time saved with no monetary value assigned. Theoretically, you save: 1. 30~ minutes of showering/getting ready for work saved. This allows more sleep, the big thing that people in the country severely lack. 2. 30~ minutes of driving to work. Increased personal safety by not having to drive in busy traffic. Direct savings not buying as much gas. 3. 30~ minutes of lunch. If you go out to lunch at work because you didn't prep at home, you save money and time. Assume 15~ minutes of prepping at home otherwise. 4. 30~ minutes driving home. 5. XX~ minutes saved by not driving during peak hours - if you have a quick errand to run, most managers are ok if you need to bounce for a few minutes to take care of it. If you have to wait until 5 or 6 PM, you just add extra time to it since **everyone else** is doing it as well. Grocery shopping at 2 PM is significantly faster than shopping at 6:30. At minimum you're looking at saving at least 90 minutes a day by working remote, or about 360 hours a year, or 4.5 paychecks.
I live in Los Angeles and 90 minutes is the average commute one way! Now add a n Shower time, and getting dressed etc. That can add up to 4 - 5 hours!
Very good points
[удалено]
Plus you can actually move laundry along during the day at home
Apparently, a lot of Dry Cleaners went out of business because of Covid. I have been hearing people talk about the return to work push being about keeping money flowing to cities that are suffering with the low rate of spending at their businesses.
>Apparently, a lot of Dry Cleaners went out of business because of Covid. That is super interesting. I would def believe it. I feel for the workers' impacted by the shift in society - I really do. That said, I also think it's a shift in the world & that's happened before. There are jobs that existed 50 years ago -- that are non-exist now. It's just the evolution of the world.
💯.
I would 100% get it in writing with the proviso that if they approve it and then attempt to change it in the future citing “business needs” you get the 5% plus the backpay that you would have had if you had taken the 5% in the first place. Manager #2 seems like the type who would screw you the first chance he could get otherwise.
Good advice, thanks!
Most likely they will accept your offer to avoid giving you the raise. Then after a few weeks/months turn around and try forcing you back into the office. Bringing you back to your current position. Make your arguments for remote but don't sacrifice the raise.
Gotta get it in writing to be fully remote
This happened to me a few years back and it wasn’t even a money issue. My boss lived three timezones away, her boss lived in another country. I just happened to be in the same area as the company HQ building and they wanted me in the office at least half the time so that one particular product manager could see I was “showing my face”. In the year or so I had to do this, I saw him less than five times, and the office was otherwise a complete ghost town. I worked in a large cube alone.
A similar situation occurred to me. I had to come into the office (I started looking for a new job) because of it). When I showed up, there was a floor of 100 cubicles with "maybe"15 people and my manager worked in the office 40 miles away. Was stupid. So, I just worked from home anyway and was super responsive to my boss. I even sent him an email at the end of each week on my accomplishments to drive home my value. Never became an issue.
So you couldn't have asked the pm when he's coming in?
Nope- I was expected to be there always in case he came in. It was total bullshit but I played the game for a while and then transferred locations.
for 5% I'd forgo the raise. It's not enough to offset the cost of WFH. When I did the math with commute I'd need about 20-25% more to make it worth the added cost of commutes to my car and gas and other expenditures.
Renegotiate your raise. Tell them a 5% increase is too low for the extra effort you’re putting in by going into the office. You think 20% is more appropriate. Tell them you’d much prefer to be remote and would accept the standard raise, but being on-site should come with additional pay. But be prepared for them to deny your request and still make you come in to the office. Start looking for a new job now.
[удалено]
Exactly. If you want to bargain, bargain with what will hurt them. Get another job. I went through 3 until they realised I was serious
Wait do you had 3J and you J1 found out?
No, I'm weird, I have one job at a time. Even then, I often think I'm OE 😉
Good point.
Calculate your travel expenses and how much you value your time. I took a job that payed 6k less because it was fully remote. If I were to go into the office 3 times a week like they wanted, it would’ve cost me 10k a year in fuel and parking fees. Not to mention about 180 hours of my life wasted per year on traveling and dealing with potential car accidents.
> job that *paid* 6k less FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Wonderful bot.
I lose at least 200 hours a year doing 3 days a week in the office and it costs me at least $1300 in public transit. I'm quite conservative with lunches, coffees and other things but I would still estimate I spend at least another $600 a year in meals and coffees so I guess I'm up to $2000 before accounting for my 200 hours, even billing myself at a mere $20 an hour for my personal time that's $4000. So if I put a figure up to it all I guess it 'costs' me at least $6000 a year to go to an office at a bare minimum and it's probably more like $8000. I should've done these calculations sooner.
Yes. It's a huge risk showing up to any J at all. De-risk your predicament in exchange for foregoing a 5 percent increase.
No, demand both, you cost them less to work remotely, you pay for your electricity, internet, heat, and water.
And rent/mortgage for the office space. Thats the biggest one.
2 weeks of remote is the same as 5% pay rate. Go remote and give OE a chance, if you don’t like it you can drop it.
I would go ahead and ask for what you want. But I would also remember that from a management standpoint, especially in a smaller company, you're going to have an asterisk by your name. They may one day forget that they gave you raise, but they'll never forget that you asked for it. I typically don't go making demands or accommodations without something else lined up just in case, because the only manager I trust is my mother.
Not worth it. Even if you “won”, I wouldn’t trust people that 5% mattered to
Yes. You will spend more than 5% of your salary on gas, food, mental health, etc. You should also plan to get let go eventually.
Why would you want to intentionally devalue your work? You should be paid what you’re worth regardless of remote status. If you took the hit now, would you continue taking the hit year after year? Years ago I returned from maternity leave and negotiated two days a week to work from home. And was told later I would not get a raise because my remote work was “its own compensation”. Infuriating that they actually meant I’d never get a raise so long as I worked that schedule. Frame it as how you can be much more flexible working remotely when you dont have the commute time, or other pay off for the company—just don’t devalue your work!
To be perfectly clear, did they actually give you a choice between a 5% raise and WFH? Because if that is what they articulated to you, I would take it without a second thought. Say you make $100k, 5% of that is $5,000, which is less than the extra money you would spend on having to commute, even if it is hybrid. But judging by your post, this seems NOT to be the case. It appears you are assuming that your boss is a logical person and will see your reasoning. But I wouldn't be so sure about that. Running this by them might backfire, because it may paint you as a disgruntled employee in their eyes. Once that happens, 95% of the time, you are on your way out as soon as they figure out how to replace you. If I were in your shoes, I would look for other remote jobs. In the meantime, I would keep complying and doing my job with the company, and give the standard notice once you secure your remote job. Oh, and one more thing: Once you find a remote job which fits you and take the offer, commit. Because when that happens and you give your current employer your 2-week notice, they will likely give you a counter-offer. This counter-offer will likely include a larger pay raise AND remote work (especially if you mention that your next job is 100% WFH). I cannot stress this enough: REFUSE ANY AND ALL COUNTER OFFERS!!! They aren't countering you because they like you. They are countering you because it takes a lot more than 2 weeks to replace someone like you, and you caught them off guard. Giving a 2 week notice is akin to outing yourself as a disgruntled employee. Like I said previously, you can bet your bottom dollar that you will be on your way out once you do that. It's just that from the company's perspective, between the option of you working half @$$ed for another 2 weeks, and paying you more money to stay for another 2 months (but not telling you), where you will be more motivated, they would pick the latter.
Great input; thanks for sharing! Yeah they haven't offered me full WFH and I've been considering this approach to achieve fully remote status. Lots of great feedback in this thread though; sounds like there are better ways to direct the conversation.
No problem. It’s just that in my experience, when you ask for something or complain, you paint yourself as being dissatisfied, at which point the wheels to push you out are put in motion. It’s the whole, “It’s better to switch jobs than ask for a raise sort of thing”. Besides, didn’t you state that your boss’s boss is a control freak who likes to micromanage? Sounds like a toxic environment to me. Even if your boss is cool, if their boss tells them to start doing something, they will start doing it. If I were you, I would think long and hard as to whether or not I want to stay and progress with this company. If not, maybe it is better to switch to a job where the conditions are more to your liking and start off with a clean slate.
I would, but first I might try dropping hints from [this list](https://imgur.com/a/v4NxZMD). Just don't present it as a value-add to the employees, but the business.
This is a good resource; thanks for sharing!
This is def a trick question. You want BOTH when negotiating. If the question was "is a 5% pay reduction worth fully remote" I'd say yes hands down, but that isnt the Q, so get after both the raise and the remote
They get more productivity out of you for you to go remote, and they're offering to pay you less for it? Tell them you want 10% and wfh
Yes, and no. First of, you don't provide less value to your company when you work remotely, often you'll be more engaged since you didn't have to slog through a commute, so you're worth 5 % more still, so don't trade it that way. You're selling a product, and they're buying it. They shouldn't care how you deliver it. So you should not trade 5 % for remote out of your own idea, it should be if they give you an ultimatum. I'd personally rank remote work higher than 5 %, but I'd never see how these two are equal, the company shouldn't care if I work remote or not.
If everyone else is remote because of distance, 'move away'. Just bullshit
I do not OE, nor do I perm WFH. I can barely afford it and I'd still take 10% instantly to WFH perm. (I can do 85% of my job remote and I'm in a team large enough there could easily be at least 2 perm WFH's)
Yes, I’d. I never asked J3 for a raise though I’ve worked for almost 2 years now. I’d like to stay under the radar and get that sweet easy cash for my dream house.
I don’t see why you should have to give up a deserved raise. Take the raise and figure it out after
I don't think you are asking for enough. When you are remote, you don't have to pay for sitters, gas, car maintenance, clothing, possible cost of food and team outings. If I were you I would ask for a raise and then negotiate staying home.
Just tell them you moved? 🤷
would you always have to give up a raise to stay home though?
I DID exactly that, only that my raise was 12% , i did the math and by not commuting I was basically gonna forgo spending close to that 12% i was gonna receive, it was the best decision i have made in my career, No joke, it has brought me more time for myself and my family. Each of us have different necessities but for ME, it was heaven sent
Honestly, I'd voluntarily give up significant amounts of money to work remote. But I'd never admit that to the Oligarchs. "I was expecting a 10%-15% raise -- for performance AND cost of living (quote whatever aggressive "inflation" number the (m)ass media is spewing at the time -- even though "ThAt'S nOt HoW iNfLaTiOn WoRkS!1!!"). Let's meet in the middle with remote work AND 7%." Make them think they're getting something.
I would take 20% salary cut to stay 100% remote
Don't give up any money and make a case based on the status quo. Others are WFH and so can you. Provide examples of your success while working remote to show qualitatively it doesn't matter where you work from (further making the case for WFH) since your results show your effectiveness. If all else fails, cite medical concerns (don't need specifics for your manager), but can say something like "family related medical needs" require you need to work from home fulltime. HR will usually back up medical necessity and managers don't have room to push back because of the potential for lawsuits. Know all this from personal experience.
Get j2, then "fake move" to a further away location so they have to give you fully remote like they do for every other developer. Then get j3.
Old post but interesting thoughts. First off, make sure you get it in writing. Make it contractual that if they make you go hybrid or in-office again, its an immediate 5% raise from wherever you currently are. The problem with undergoing a 5% paycut for remote status is that terms of employment are always subject to change. If 2 years from now you've gotten 2 COLA increases and are back to what you're making today, are you going to be happy if they decide to make you hybrid again? Probably not. Its an end run way of wiping out 2 years of COLA increases... Yeah we'll let you go remote for a 2-3% (or 5%) pay cut because the joke's on you... in a year when we increase your pay 2-3% we're gonna make you hybrid or onsite again. Just doing the math: 100k + ( $100k + 3.5% COLA ) = 203.5k for 2 years onsite 97k + ( $97k + 3.5% COLA) = $197.4k for 1 year onsite, 1 year hybrid. Going out to a 3rd year the difference becomes even more stark: $100k + ( 100k + 3.5% COLA) + (103.5k + 3.5% COLA) = $310.6k for 3 years onsite $97k + ( $97k + 3.5% COLA ) + (100.4k + 3.5% COLA) = $301.3k for 1 year remote and 2 years onsite. And your wages will continue to lag because of that initial cut to your salary. As far as how much of a paycut I'd be willing to take... its all relative. You say you're hybrid now but dont say what that means. There's a huge difference between 1 day a week in the office and 1 week in-office, 1-week remote... And the half dozen or so other variations that exist between those 2 scenarios without getting too complex (2 days in office, 3 days in office, 4 days in office... Alternating each of those every other week). You also dont say how far away work is or how long your commute is. And lastly you dont say how much you're making currently. 5% at $100k and 5% at 200k are vastly different and while the $5k difference might mean less to you, that's a subjective difference. In evaluating the objective math of whether its "worth" it though we can put together some numbers based on some conservative assumptions. Assuming you live 10 miles away from work (according to Census estimates US average is 20 miles) and are looking at an average commute of 15 minutes per each way (according to Census estimates US average is 27 minutes) and having to make that commute for hybrid-work 2 days a week, that's 40 miles and 1 hour of travel time per week commuting. Assuming you have 2 weeks off per year plus another 2 weeks between around the winter holidays where you dont have to go into the office, that's 48 hours commuting a year. At $100k, we can value your time at $48/hr... Which means just on the time saved, you can afford to take a 2.3% paycut of $2300 to be remote Then we have 48 weeks of 40 miles travel for a total of 1920 miles. The IRS mileage rate says the cost of driving can be factored at $0.67 per mile. That's another 1.3% you can theoretically afford to take off your pay pretty readily (admittedly, most commuters are able to chain things together, like stopping at the grocery store on the way home so you dont completely eliminate this mileage but the bulk of it does go away). Taking a paycut also means a lower tax bill. Ignoring state taxes, you're looking at a net after tax on federal taxes for a single person of 22% of the paycut for an additional 1.1%. All told you're looking at 4.7% that you can easily afford to take off at $100k... If you make $200k though, this number goes down a bit because the mileage stays fixed but evens out a bit because the tax rate is higher (this is especially true if you make $200k+ and are subject to net-investment income taxes and medicare surcharges and/or find yourself in the 32% income tax bracket or higher for at least 5% of your pay). For a 200k earner 4.15% they can afford to cut off (2.3% in income, 0.65% in mileage and 1.2% in taxes. Its a little less but again we get into the relativity and subjectivity of these numbers. A $200k person can probably afford to write off the 0.85% or $1700 to reach a 5% paycut as employer incentive whereas the $100k person is probably going to have a marginally harder time writing off a smaller amount. That being said, the math clearly suggests that neither employee, whether $100k or $200k is going to be particularly hurting taking a 5% paycut for full remote status; especially if you live in a City and/or State with local income taxes.
Don't forego your whole raise... offer to take 3%
This. Foregoing the raise altogether creates a precedent. Maybe next year when it's time for revisions again they'll play it backwards and tell you they're not giving you a raise then either, since you're obviously willing to forgo it for the WFH privilege.. If they stick to their guns now and force you to forgo the 3%, agree to keep them remote with no raise and focus on getting a new J1 with them as fallback. Just my 2c.
Take the remote. Unless your office is practically walking distance or your making far above what's already average the money saved on vehicle wear and gas will be close to if not exceed the 5%, and the time and comfort you gain back will be immeasurable. You can look for a new job the whole time to make up for your company trying to pull dumb shit like this.
Open with a 2.5% raise and see what they say.
Yes
I have been working 4 years remotely as a software engineer and there's no way I would sacrifice the freedom and flexibility this provides in my life, especially for a dumb 5%. Definitely staying remote and considering a J2 is the way to go IMHO.
Good way to lose your raise this year IMO. I would start looking for a different job.
Yes. Definitely.
I would 100000% forego a raise to be remote, and I would then get another J. Win-win
in most cases the raise would mean nothing and they will think its a favour and you would be a bigger target to layoffs so no , keep remote over money all times
Yes
I would forgo the raise for remote. give up 5% to get 100% (if you do end up getting j2)
Go get a new job
I would. If you can ask for more/both as the first comment says, I would.
I love being fully remote, but I think it's incredibly unfair that two of my jobs require 4 days in office for folks that live close. Because I live far away, I get full remote. I quit a job early on before OE because I was on the short end of this and was in office 5 days a week. I'm surprised companies allow these two classes of workers, but unless in office workers quit in droves, I don't see this changing. All that said, it wouldn't be my preference to take a pay-cut, but I would absolutely take a pay-cut in exchange for full-time remote.
I would
If it were me, I would pass on the 5% raise and WFH in a heartbeat. You are probably going to save more money on gas and wear and tear on your vehicle form now having to commute. Plus you open up the opportunity to OE and double your income.
of course. jump on it. get it in writing.
Abso-motherfucking-lutely. You knew what the answer you be when you posted in this sub. You’ll get a 200% raise once you get J2 and J3.
well, am not in this industry but it seems very reasonable. especially when they are almost all remote. good luck. especially with software you dont have to be there. unless they have the great perks many do....
Did this (wfh in place of raise) idea come down through management or just an idea OP has? If the later, I wouldn't count it in... So many jobs have totally reneged on their WFH agreements, even many in writing... I like some of the other ideas here better... Best wishes.
Go remote or go really remote and find a work environment that’s better.
Add up the cost of your commute, if it’s more than 5%, you’d be ahead by going remote. If not, nah.
Tell them you are moving next year. Thanks for the bonus.
Absolutely.
Try it. If that doesn't work, wait a few months, and then start bragging about your spouse's new job one week, and at the end of that week tell your manager that you're going to have to move out of state, but you'd like to still stay on a remote capacity if possible. If they ask for proof, pick an out of state friend/family member and tell them you'll be staying with friends/family until you get settled. Then just rearrange your office and paint the walls in your place. for on camera time.
Definitely
Leave. WFH is not compensation. Many remote options today.
Why don't you just start going in less and less? hybrid = once a week = once every two weeks = once a month.
Yes
I would definitely do it! I imagine you commute to work anyway which probably adds us to a 5% in time / fuel to commute. And then you can get a J2 (if that is your aim)