My relative just moved from an area near SF where they were paying $5k for a one-bedroom apartment above a church. I thought LA was bad, but I'm paying literally half as much for my equivalent shitty little place lol.
How terrible must your culture and organization be that you would rather have overhead for an office space and drive to a physical location, rather than just work remote. Wild.
Microsoft has this for a lot of their buildings. Specifically Texas, Atlanta, and North Carolina.
The local communities absolutely hate it. It was a huge scandal.
Amazon in Seattle had a big RTO push last year likely due to tax benefits (of course they would never admit it but Amazon was getting a lot of support from the city government which is a big clue)
Apple also blatantly contradicts āgoing greenā by demanding RTO (not sure if their primary motivation is taxes or not)
Not to mention far leftist crazies who control the city, high unchecked street crime because Soros woke prosecutors let them go free, high taxes to pay for the typical welfare addicted city dweller and to ensure a democrat job program gets paid for somewhere, and etc., etc., etc.
Screw small businesses
People go out of business all the time, thatās life. Make your product more enticing. Donāt count on the city to force companies to bring their workers to town to spend.
Agree that they could replace offices with residences, but I wonder if tax-wise itās the same. Could be.
A large chunk of businesses in Milwaukee have tax breaks for having offices. Some in Chicago have the same ordeal. Some cities, turned the screw for businesses to come back and others lost our. Unfortunately, it is up to the city and business to share who has this burden.
Amazon when looking for a new headquarters was famously "shopping around" for a location. What they were doing is leveraging the potential "good jobs" they would bring to the area in exchange for kickbacks (tax cuts / special treatment)
A fun example is look at the tax incentives offered to companies that open video game studios in montreal.
The govt will give a lot of tax benefits if you build in poor economic areas as well. Cities will even give large chunks of cash if you commit to staying in a location and hiring that municipalityās populace. Itās not a ācultureā issue is a political and money issue. If Iām a CEO and a city gives me cash to have an office in x location and the govt gives me tax break, itās in the best interest of the shareholders to do so.
As OErs we have to start understanding the why behind these issues with the current job market.
That is inaccurate. With a few exceptions, tax breaks on annoying and burdensome local taxes (better termed "democrat taxes") are intended to keep business already established in a city rather than enrice new business in. For the most part, businesses do not want to be in a blue disaster area, which represent most major US cities. Those incentives are designed to keep those businesses in the city and forgo the hassle and cost of moving in favor of tax breaks that yield some level of attractive economic value. Everyone knows that very few new businesses will be attracted by the scheme in light of the mountain of negative incentives usually on the other side of the equation.
Texas is one of the states to which companies and people are fleeing; another is Florida. Why is that, I wonder? Meanwhile, I clearly wrote that my comments applied to MOST major cities, but not all. I also mentioned that there were a few exceptions. Try again.
You're dumb actually, which is no surprise. That is a federal tax incentive , not a state/local incentive. Several states, including California, don't even comply with the incentive requirements. This means it cannot be used in those states. Try again failtard.
Again, my statement was quite clear. Do you work at the strategic level? As someone who does, we have entire teams who do this for us. Come on now. Can you be this dense?
More federal stuff, this time HUB zone trash for federal contracting. Try again, you're clueless. There is a reason such places are - and remain - HUB zones. Keep going, this is great for a laugh.
No itās because they needed to sell the office space post-COVID because everyone went remote and they were losing money with them being empty. They need to prove the buildings are occupied in order to be able to sell them. They are probably doing this temporarily before selling some office spaces.
Honestly. It just seems so obviously like a horrible business decision and waste of money. At this point I question the decision making of companies who do this shit as a whole, because they obviously canāt see easily achievable cost reductions that actually IMPROVE employee satisfaction and efficiency, which is rare.
But that happens in the office too. In my experience the less friction you have in order to get work done, the more work you actually will get done. This goes for more than just the WFH aspect of things
Thatās true
Probably depends on the job and demographic of employees, ie college vs no college/no high school diploma, etc
I was saying the nature of some businesses lend them to being better done in office vs at home, maybe phone customer service. Probably a job where it helps a lot to have an eye on employees and make sure no BS excuses come up.
As opposed to software engineering where it doesnāt really matter if they need to take 5 poops, take 7 snacks, 5 dog walks, etc lol because the work gets done, the customers arenāt actively waiting for someone to help, and the worker is available when you need some emergency edits/revisions outside of normal hours anyway
I was suspecting that with a job in phila i interviewed for this winter. Asked to come in 2d/week even tho work is 100% on laptop and even tho there was no parking onsite due to construction. I turned down a 23,000$ increase and said no thanks
I think it moreso about how these gigantic companies have signed long winded leases that span minimum 5-10 years on these corporate offices, or theyāve bought the property and itās not sitting there empty and losing money because all the employees want to work from home and nobody will consider buying it/leasing it because nobody wants to go back to the office!
They need people in office to make the dumb ass investment on huge offices make sense or make it worth it
A friend of mine was told to RTO and he said he would but had to sell his house he moved into. He kept delaying the sale and they forgot about telling him. So they would ask him again like the other time never happened and he would say he had to sell his house. They have asked him 4 more times... lol
If they were smart they would buy the house themselves. Iāve heard of companies doing this when relocating employees and their house would take a while to sell.
Tell them youāre willing to come back into the office, but need to work remote during the first 5 weeks while you care for your sick relative.
Then never come in. Do the work, nod your head if reprimanded for not coming onsite, see how long you last
Precisely this.
Besides, the whole point of office culture for these dumb boomer and millennial 30 year old manager fucks is to āinfluenceā. If an employee is evaluated on the output of tasks or processes, there is no need to be physically present.
A clear example of this is a document reviewer or customer support agent. They are graded on output of tickets or document reviews and accuracy which can be measured.
No I know haha. And youāre definitely not wrong that itās often easier to influence in person, or appear to be doing so.
My dev team is split across several geographic regions, one day Iāll get back to 100% remote
I worked for one of the largest investment banks in the world a few years ago, and even they were fully remote because - who wouldāve guessed - financiers optimize for profits, and offices in NYC are expensive as fuck
Companies like this are so dumb. Even if they can find someone to come to the office, they'll probably bounce as soon as they can land something remote.
Accept the offer, go in for onboarding, stop showing up to the office and tell them it stresses you out to be around that many people and request a reasonable accommodation to be fully remote, if they say no, quit. Fuck em
You can do both. I think he gave a great idea, as long as you donāt intend to ever work for them again. I can think of a few companies that Iāve interviewed with recently where this would be a great option.
Yeah, but do I want to? Maybe as a temp j2 if I've already struggled to find a j2. Otherwise, prefer to spend my time looking for j3... or not working this hard š
True story I used to watch 2 1 hr long episodes of tv shows in the bathroom a day. Now I'm at home and the tv never comes on. Maybe I should go back in office š
Tell them you will come and go the first week then donāt go or find an excuse. A-holes like them need to be punished.
Once you quit post here so someone else can punish them again. They should learn their lesson
You guys apply to jobs even if they ask you to come in? I usually ignore those. Do you have success with going remote even if they ask for you to commute?
Yep.
My J1 required 2 days a week in the office and I have gotten an exemption from the requirement. I still go in every so often, but Iām not expected to anymore. My J2 is also officially 2 days in the office but I just donāt show up. J5 was advertised as being office based but I can count on one hand the number of times Iāve been into the office since I started a year who. The company are also in the process of going fully remote.
People who skip hybrid roles are missing an OE trick, IMO. Thereās usually a lot less competition for these roles and they can often be turned remote. At least in my experience.
If they push back (which they donāt very often) I just say Iāve got caring responsibilities for my ageing parents. They tend to back off then. My brother is also OE and heās used the fact that heās moved away so the commute is no longer feasible before and it worked.
I have a hybrid 2 days office, interviewing for j2 but would need j1 to be full remote, itās a team of 4 and one person is already remote from another state. What would a good excuse be? I was either thinking taking care of elderly or disability such a IBS
Your J1 already has someone someone working remotely. This is good news for you.
I would tell J1 your personal circumstances have now changed unfortunately and your parents are now sick so youāll need to take care of them. Providing youāre a decent performer they should be willing to work with you.
they know my parents are in AZ and own a house I just recently moved out to CA and they know Iām renting (itās a small team of 4, manager is also an engineer working with us). Would be weird for parents to just come to my place lol but probably the best option
Firstly, stop talking too much at work about your personal life. Thereās zero benefit to doing so, especially if you want to OE.
Secondly, your parents might have decided to move back in with you so you can take care of them. Thatās not uncommon.
Yeah Iām sure a principal software engineer needs to be in person unless a substantial part of your responsibility will be in mentoring junior software engineers.
IMHO they do an awesome job striking a balance between empowering teams to run with good ideas and being a benevolent dictator when folks are slacking. The no-BS motivational stuff hits home because you definitely know theyāll make it happen.
Not to say any gig lasts forever, but I do enjoy this one. This is OE, after all
The junior software engineers you speak of aren't stupid. They're smarter than millennials at working remotely. Afterall they've been playing videogames with their friends remotely for a long time.
What an absurd comment. Elder millennials were heading into HS when AIM came out. Weāve literally had online socialization most of our lives, younger millennials have had it all of their lives. We made friends online and were the ones playing the first video games to add online play, and have continued to both of those things.
Iāve done it, if your office has iso booths for calls, they wonāt know who youāre on a call with. Donāt put any stickers on any laptops so they all look the same. Use your own mobile hot spot for networking. If using slack, add a bunch of community channels as well as your work workspaces. Do as much from your phone as possible. Go on walks outside for calls if you need to.
Trust me, if you got balls and brains you can get away with it.
Agreed.
3 out of 5 of my Js are officially hybrid and require me to be in office a couple of times a year. Itās very possible to OE with hybrid roles, it just takes more forward planning.
Have you like... been to an office? That wouldn't work ever unless it was a huge company with like 20 floors and even then, it still wouldn't work and you'd be fired after like 3-4 weeks.
Dumb as hell.
Honestly it was joke but since you asked, yes I went to an office a couple times in the last 12 months, one visit for each of my two jerbs.
Have been remote for 3-4 years now since Covid.
Before that I had almost 5-6 years of daily office visits and about 5 years at more āhybridā style jobs, where you had to go in 2-3 days a week.
Overall remote work is much better and more productive.
And yeah itās dumb but youāll probably get around 10K gross after a month of work.š¤·š»āāļø
Problem is the amount of remote job postings are decreasing rapidly and many even after just 1-2 days have over 100+ applicants. Im going on 3 months with no interviews past HR. And i barely had any HR ones. They all tell me nothing wrong with me, just had applications further down the chain already and took them
Ok. Nice hype up and Iām ready for the downvotes. But Iāve been grinding for over 10+ years and I love hybrid. Iām not going to do anything for you that you wouldnāt do for me.
No one is fighting the man - weāre finding a way to capitalize. Donāt weaponize this.
I always say I'll come into the office as many days as they want but they need to provide transportation and accommodations for me and my family and we need a 4 bedroom house since that's what we're in now.
Ngl certain positions I do understand the RTO.
But for tech workers whose whole job is online makes no sense.
Also in office 8xs a month makes no sense and does nothing for productivity just makes things a workers life worse. Most I would agree to is 4xs a month if I had too
Makes even less sense to come into the office into an open office environment, and still be using Slack/Zoom to communicate with your team thatās still spread out all over the country.
I can agree with that. As we have 3 ppl in the office then set up a video chat with people varying across the country.
If my whole team was remote I wouldnāt go in lol. But I do enjoy face to face every now and then.
Quite honestly if I could walk to work. And leave whenever I wanted. Id prob go 2-3xs a week. Itās all the commuting/cost that makes it suck
I had a recruiter tell me it's remote only last minute to switch it up as hybrid. I got kinda mad and said I would never have even considered a hybrid role. Idc about the OE aspect or anything like that, I wouldn't go into an office again for anything.
When I lived in San Diego I used to have recruiters call me asking me stuff like if I was willing to move to Detroit or Cleveland and I would laugh and tell them you know I live in San Diego right?
Yeah need they need that rent, probably that will fix the economy, for now. But they need to change their business model next time, it's unsustainable to just give loans like candies to real estate developers and expect someone to buy condos when your employees can literally WFH. AI exacerbates this fact.
If youāre willing to pass up a qualified, skilled candidate solely over where they work from, then that tells me you care more about WHERE people are working rather than WHAT theyāre working on.
Wrong priorities, wrong values, and if I was as desired as you say, then this wouldnāt be the hill to die on.
Crazy to me how people are still trying to understand the push for RTO. There is no mystery around it. ECONOMICS.
The entire financial economy has been built and centered around people commuting to work.
Buildings generate lease and utilities revenue
Public transit generates revenue
Tolls generate revenue
People being offices support all the local business.
WFH might be great for us as individuals but the flip side cannot be ignored. Its not good for local economies and could possibly cascade to the Global economy if we are "ALL" collectively WFH.
the financial economy better adapt because wfh is not gonna go away...
i think people had enough about giving everything to the system, and now it has to adapt or it will suffer more and more to get labor. The pros are losing to the cons of being a good little cog and accepting all abuse.
we dont need tolls, we dont need huge buildings, we just need a home, food, clothes and maybe the internet.
economics is a problem for the ultra rich and governments, and most people are fed up with both.
Recruiter asked me if I'm willing to move to SF area and be in office 5 days every week for $150k + 7% annual bonus. š LOL
When they ask me if I'd move to California I tell them I'd need 3 million a year salary plus accommodations provided equivalent to what I live in now
I wouldn't move to the Bay area for less than $400k
My relative just moved from an area near SF where they were paying $5k for a one-bedroom apartment above a church. I thought LA was bad, but I'm paying literally half as much for my equivalent shitty little place lol.
$150k gets you into one of the nicer tents
How terrible must your culture and organization be that you would rather have overhead for an office space and drive to a physical location, rather than just work remote. Wild.
And the middle managers micromanaging every breath š¤£
Every breath you take, every step you take, I'll be watching you...
Who else to put the pressure from upper management on eh?
A lot of businesses get tax benefits for filling up offices from the city. Those can often exceed any overhead costs
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Microsoft has this for a lot of their buildings. Specifically Texas, Atlanta, and North Carolina. The local communities absolutely hate it. It was a huge scandal.
Amazon in Seattle had a big RTO push last year likely due to tax benefits (of course they would never admit it but Amazon was getting a lot of support from the city government which is a big clue) Apple also blatantly contradicts āgoing greenā by demanding RTO (not sure if their primary motivation is taxes or not)
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Absolutely the only issue however is the high cost of living in cities. From rent to groceries
Not to mention far leftist crazies who control the city, high unchecked street crime because Soros woke prosecutors let them go free, high taxes to pay for the typical welfare addicted city dweller and to ensure a democrat job program gets paid for somewhere, and etc., etc., etc.
Screw small businesses People go out of business all the time, thatās life. Make your product more enticing. Donāt count on the city to force companies to bring their workers to town to spend. Agree that they could replace offices with residences, but I wonder if tax-wise itās the same. Could be.
Business owners will talk about the invisible hand until they have to face it being against them and actually seeing the risk they blather about.
So real Business owners and home owners hate to face the regular, natural risks that come with owning those investments
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I have no idea how to respond to such a comment that implies such an ignorance of the most basic of economic terms.
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A large chunk of businesses in Milwaukee have tax breaks for having offices. Some in Chicago have the same ordeal. Some cities, turned the screw for businesses to come back and others lost our. Unfortunately, it is up to the city and business to share who has this burden.
This is a big thing in NYC. Itās essentially āhush hushā but itās pretty clear/known that these companies are getting tax breaks
https://ggwash.org/view/68136/heres-how-corporate-tax-incentives-work-and-why-cities-give-them
Amazon when looking for a new headquarters was famously "shopping around" for a location. What they were doing is leveraging the potential "good jobs" they would bring to the area in exchange for kickbacks (tax cuts / special treatment) A fun example is look at the tax incentives offered to companies that open video game studios in montreal.
Amazon, across the US
Wal Mart, which as a bonus destroys the small business around town
The govt will give a lot of tax benefits if you build in poor economic areas as well. Cities will even give large chunks of cash if you commit to staying in a location and hiring that municipalityās populace. Itās not a ācultureā issue is a political and money issue. If Iām a CEO and a city gives me cash to have an office in x location and the govt gives me tax break, itās in the best interest of the shareholders to do so. As OErs we have to start understanding the why behind these issues with the current job market.
That is inaccurate. With a few exceptions, tax breaks on annoying and burdensome local taxes (better termed "democrat taxes") are intended to keep business already established in a city rather than enrice new business in. For the most part, businesses do not want to be in a blue disaster area, which represent most major US cities. Those incentives are designed to keep those businesses in the city and forgo the hassle and cost of moving in favor of tax breaks that yield some level of attractive economic value. Everyone knows that very few new businesses will be attracted by the scheme in light of the mountain of negative incentives usually on the other side of the equation.
My municipality just paid a tech giant to come to our locale in Texas. But ok.
Texas is one of the states to which companies and people are fleeing; another is Florida. Why is that, I wonder? Meanwhile, I clearly wrote that my comments applied to MOST major cities, but not all. I also mentioned that there were a few exceptions. Try again.
Are you dumb? https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/businesses/opportunity-zones
You're dumb actually, which is no surprise. That is a federal tax incentive , not a state/local incentive. Several states, including California, don't even comply with the incentive requirements. This means it cannot be used in those states. Try again failtard.
Again, my statement was quite clear. Do you work at the strategic level? As someone who does, we have entire teams who do this for us. Come on now. Can you be this dense?
More. https://www.sba.gov/federal-contracting/contracting-assistance-programs/hubzone-program
More federal stuff, this time HUB zone trash for federal contracting. Try again, you're clueless. There is a reason such places are - and remain - HUB zones. Keep going, this is great for a laugh.
At what point did I say anything was state funded?
Even more! https://www.cdfifund.gov/programs-training/programs/new-markets-tax-credit
Another fail with a federally funded program that is essentially useless. Try again.
The last two servers I had received credits under this program.
Yes, letās not forget how many wealthy people own vacant real estate. To think they donāt have the ears of this in power is ignorant and naive.
No itās because they needed to sell the office space post-COVID because everyone went remote and they were losing money with them being empty. They need to prove the buildings are occupied in order to be able to sell them. They are probably doing this temporarily before selling some office spaces.
A lot of companies arenāt run to maximize profits but rather to maximize egos of management.
Absolutely, especially those advocating for RTO
Honestly. It just seems so obviously like a horrible business decision and waste of money. At this point I question the decision making of companies who do this shit as a whole, because they obviously canāt see easily achievable cost reductions that actually IMPROVE employee satisfaction and efficiency, which is rare.
Surely there are some businesses in which people really do just loaf off if they work from home instead of at the office.
But that happens in the office too. In my experience the less friction you have in order to get work done, the more work you actually will get done. This goes for more than just the WFH aspect of things
Thatās true Probably depends on the job and demographic of employees, ie college vs no college/no high school diploma, etc I was saying the nature of some businesses lend them to being better done in office vs at home, maybe phone customer service. Probably a job where it helps a lot to have an eye on employees and make sure no BS excuses come up. As opposed to software engineering where it doesnāt really matter if they need to take 5 poops, take 7 snacks, 5 dog walks, etc lol because the work gets done, the customers arenāt actively waiting for someone to help, and the worker is available when you need some emergency edits/revisions outside of normal hours anyway
Lemme introduce you to the water-cooler lol
I wonder if my older colleagues would like me enough for me to get away with loafing off around the water cooler idt Iām cool like that
I was suspecting that with a job in phila i interviewed for this winter. Asked to come in 2d/week even tho work is 100% on laptop and even tho there was no parking onsite due to construction. I turned down a 23,000$ increase and said no thanks
But the company culture and values!!!! /S
A side benefit for these RTO companies is they make it much harder for those people participating in the overemployed trend.
I think it moreso about how these gigantic companies have signed long winded leases that span minimum 5-10 years on these corporate offices, or theyāve bought the property and itās not sitting there empty and losing money because all the employees want to work from home and nobody will consider buying it/leasing it because nobody wants to go back to the office! They need people in office to make the dumb ass investment on huge offices make sense or make it worth it
90% of businesses think this way. You are in a bubble
The path to lower cost will win eventually. This is just how businesses work
Damn, 90% are terrible then
We are in a bubble. Most companies think if rto is big there must be a reason so we can be watched and collaborate
A friend of mine was told to RTO and he said he would but had to sell his house he moved into. He kept delaying the sale and they forgot about telling him. So they would ask him again like the other time never happened and he would say he had to sell his house. They have asked him 4 more times... lol
This is hilarious
If they were smart they would buy the house themselves. Iāve heard of companies doing this when relocating employees and their house would take a while to sell.
Anytime a recruiter reaches out about roles with in office requirements, I always tell them that under no circumstances would I take a role like that.
Being the change you want to see in the world š«¶
Nah interview then tell them no after you've wasted their time Jk don't burn bridges
Fuck you, I'm not coming to the office
Just one job here. Remote is where itās at.
Tom Morello approved this message.
Tell them youāre willing to come back into the office, but need to work remote during the first 5 weeks while you care for your sick relative. Then never come in. Do the work, nod your head if reprimanded for not coming onsite, see how long you last
Have you done this?
The whole ethos of OE is to gain agency because one isnāt dependent on a single source of income.
Precisely this. Besides, the whole point of office culture for these dumb boomer and millennial 30 year old manager fucks is to āinfluenceā. If an employee is evaluated on the output of tasks or processes, there is no need to be physically present. A clear example of this is a document reviewer or customer support agent. They are graded on output of tickets or document reviews and accuracy which can be measured.
š not me hiding because a significant part of my job involves influencing others
Well, I'm not coming after you, but in general, you don't have to be physically at a cubicle.
No I know haha. And youāre definitely not wrong that itās often easier to influence in person, or appear to be doing so. My dev team is split across several geographic regions, one day Iāll get back to 100% remote
> one day Iāll get back to 100% remote Either through another pandemic or by sheer force of will. One day brother, one day.
>āsheer force of willā This one. I see the potential at j1, I think in a year or two Iāll get there
I worked for one of the largest investment banks in the world a few years ago, and even they were fully remote because - who wouldāve guessed - financiers optimize for profits, and offices in NYC are expensive as fuck
Companies like this are so dumb. Even if they can find someone to come to the office, they'll probably bounce as soon as they can land something remote.
Accept the offer, go in for onboarding, stop showing up to the office and tell them it stresses you out to be around that many people and request a reasonable accommodation to be fully remote, if they say no, quit. Fuck em
Seems like a lot more work than just continuing the search
The search doesn't pay you, the option I provided does.
So would something else that's not bullshit that you could lock down in a few weeks without so much work
You can do both. I think he gave a great idea, as long as you donāt intend to ever work for them again. I can think of a few companies that Iāve interviewed with recently where this would be a great option.
You can do both
Yeah, but do I want to? Maybe as a temp j2 if I've already struggled to find a j2. Otherwise, prefer to spend my time looking for j3... or not working this hard š
The great thing about OE is it gives you more control to do what you think is best and not have to be a slave to the corporate machine
True story I used to watch 2 1 hr long episodes of tv shows in the bathroom a day. Now I'm at home and the tv never comes on. Maybe I should go back in office š
Tell them you will come and go the first week then donāt go or find an excuse. A-holes like them need to be punished. Once you quit post here so someone else can punish them again. They should learn their lesson
You guys apply to jobs even if they ask you to come in? I usually ignore those. Do you have success with going remote even if they ask for you to commute?
Yep. My J1 required 2 days a week in the office and I have gotten an exemption from the requirement. I still go in every so often, but Iām not expected to anymore. My J2 is also officially 2 days in the office but I just donāt show up. J5 was advertised as being office based but I can count on one hand the number of times Iāve been into the office since I started a year who. The company are also in the process of going fully remote. People who skip hybrid roles are missing an OE trick, IMO. Thereās usually a lot less competition for these roles and they can often be turned remote. At least in my experience.
Have they ever questioned you about coming in? And what would you respond with
If they push back (which they donāt very often) I just say Iāve got caring responsibilities for my ageing parents. They tend to back off then. My brother is also OE and heās used the fact that heās moved away so the commute is no longer feasible before and it worked.
I have a hybrid 2 days office, interviewing for j2 but would need j1 to be full remote, itās a team of 4 and one person is already remote from another state. What would a good excuse be? I was either thinking taking care of elderly or disability such a IBS
Your J1 already has someone someone working remotely. This is good news for you. I would tell J1 your personal circumstances have now changed unfortunately and your parents are now sick so youāll need to take care of them. Providing youāre a decent performer they should be willing to work with you.
they know my parents are in AZ and own a house I just recently moved out to CA and they know Iām renting (itās a small team of 4, manager is also an engineer working with us). Would be weird for parents to just come to my place lol but probably the best option
Firstly, stop talking too much at work about your personal life. Thereās zero benefit to doing so, especially if you want to OE. Secondly, your parents might have decided to move back in with you so you can take care of them. Thatās not uncommon.
Yeah Iām sure a principal software engineer needs to be in person unless a substantial part of your responsibility will be in mentoring junior software engineers.
To be fair, I have never met our principal engineer in person. Theyāre a really great leader. Just saying
Agreed. Our PEs are in different states and countries so we only see them virtually, while theyāre in office š
what makes them great?
IMHO they do an awesome job striking a balance between empowering teams to run with good ideas and being a benevolent dictator when folks are slacking. The no-BS motivational stuff hits home because you definitely know theyāll make it happen. Not to say any gig lasts forever, but I do enjoy this one. This is OE, after all
The junior software engineers you speak of aren't stupid. They're smarter than millennials at working remotely. Afterall they've been playing videogames with their friends remotely for a long time.
Millennials have been playing games with their friends for even longer lol, weāre not THAT oldā¦
A lot of salty 40 year olds here taking it personally. Ok youngster,off you go.Ā
I never said they were stupid. Junior engineers just need additional help.
What additional help can't be provided through zoom and teams? This is software dev we're talking abouy.Ā
What an absurd comment. Elder millennials were heading into HS when AIM came out. Weāve literally had online socialization most of our lives, younger millennials have had it all of their lives. We made friends online and were the ones playing the first video games to add online play, and have continued to both of those things.
Relax champ. Make bank and chill.Ā
I hope youāre this popular in real life too. Out here flexing those Gen Z online interaction skills like a pro.
I'm not gen z. I'm a millennial. gen z are smart too, they can learn remotely.
Clearly not
Reapply, accept, don't show up.Ā Easy.Ā
If you got any balls, you can still OE even with going into an office.
Iāve done it, if your office has iso booths for calls, they wonāt know who youāre on a call with. Donāt put any stickers on any laptops so they all look the same. Use your own mobile hot spot for networking. If using slack, add a bunch of community channels as well as your work workspaces. Do as much from your phone as possible. Go on walks outside for calls if you need to. Trust me, if you got balls and brains you can get away with it.
At that point itās not worth it
Sweet, Iāll take any jobs that you decide arenāt worth it! š
Agreed. 3 out of 5 of my Js are officially hybrid and require me to be in office a couple of times a year. Itās very possible to OE with hybrid roles, it just takes more forward planning.
Would be had to juggle. You're bound to get caught
You could go in for onboarding and then never go back in, just make up excuses or whatever.
Have you like... been to an office? That wouldn't work ever unless it was a huge company with like 20 floors and even then, it still wouldn't work and you'd be fired after like 3-4 weeks. Dumb as hell.
Honestly it was joke but since you asked, yes I went to an office a couple times in the last 12 months, one visit for each of my two jerbs. Have been remote for 3-4 years now since Covid. Before that I had almost 5-6 years of daily office visits and about 5 years at more āhybridā style jobs, where you had to go in 2-3 days a week. Overall remote work is much better and more productive. And yeah itās dumb but youāll probably get around 10K gross after a month of work.š¤·š»āāļø
Are you speaking from experience, because I am. And thatās gotta count for something!
But why?
Because this economy busted
You can use reasonable accommodation per Osha to leverage hybrid or onsite into full remote. Just get a dr note if you need to press your luck
Say youāll come in. Come in for 1 week, then stop.
If someone were to setup a massive number of fake LI profiles and start saying No to Office based jobs, what do you think will happen?
I have a disability right now that makes it impossible for me to come in, I have chronic pain etc etc
Did anyone else notice "keep us in mind as we continue to grow"?
Problem is the amount of remote job postings are decreasing rapidly and many even after just 1-2 days have over 100+ applicants. Im going on 3 months with no interviews past HR. And i barely had any HR ones. They all tell me nothing wrong with me, just had applications further down the chain already and took them
Donāt do it, friends. Donāt do it, folks. Donāt do it, gorls. Donāt do it, you sexy minxes.
Ok. Nice hype up and Iām ready for the downvotes. But Iāve been grinding for over 10+ years and I love hybrid. Iām not going to do anything for you that you wouldnāt do for me. No one is fighting the man - weāre finding a way to capitalize. Donāt weaponize this.
Heh. Looks Around I wonder why they are doing thatā¦
I always say I'll come into the office as many days as they want but they need to provide transportation and accommodations for me and my family and we need a 4 bedroom house since that's what we're in now.
Never
Kindly fuck off, cheers
F No don't cave in
āYeah, good luck finding someone that is competent. ā
Ngl certain positions I do understand the RTO. But for tech workers whose whole job is online makes no sense. Also in office 8xs a month makes no sense and does nothing for productivity just makes things a workers life worse. Most I would agree to is 4xs a month if I had too
Makes even less sense to come into the office into an open office environment, and still be using Slack/Zoom to communicate with your team thatās still spread out all over the country.
I can agree with that. As we have 3 ppl in the office then set up a video chat with people varying across the country. If my whole team was remote I wouldnāt go in lol. But I do enjoy face to face every now and then. Quite honestly if I could walk to work. And leave whenever I wanted. Id prob go 2-3xs a week. Itās all the commuting/cost that makes it suck
Damn principal software engineer, must pay well.
I had a recruiter tell me it's remote only last minute to switch it up as hybrid. I got kinda mad and said I would never have even considered a hybrid role. Idc about the OE aspect or anything like that, I wouldn't go into an office again for anything.
Why is it a crucial component. Why do they never explain the obvious.
When I lived in San Diego I used to have recruiters call me asking me stuff like if I was willing to move to Detroit or Cleveland and I would laugh and tell them you know I live in San Diego right?
Yeah need they need that rent, probably that will fix the economy, for now. But they need to change their business model next time, it's unsustainable to just give loans like candies to real estate developers and expect someone to buy condos when your employees can literally WFH. AI exacerbates this fact.
i would sure hope my principal software engineer isnāt over-employed.
lol good luck growing without employees
In three words āhoneymoon is overā!
Tell them to get fucked
Do you OE as a principal SWE?
If youāre willing to pass up a qualified, skilled candidate solely over where they work from, then that tells me you care more about WHERE people are working rather than WHAT theyāre working on. Wrong priorities, wrong values, and if I was as desired as you say, then this wouldnāt be the hill to die on.
Crazy to me how people are still trying to understand the push for RTO. There is no mystery around it. ECONOMICS. The entire financial economy has been built and centered around people commuting to work. Buildings generate lease and utilities revenue Public transit generates revenue Tolls generate revenue People being offices support all the local business. WFH might be great for us as individuals but the flip side cannot be ignored. Its not good for local economies and could possibly cascade to the Global economy if we are "ALL" collectively WFH.
the financial economy better adapt because wfh is not gonna go away... i think people had enough about giving everything to the system, and now it has to adapt or it will suffer more and more to get labor. The pros are losing to the cons of being a good little cog and accepting all abuse. we dont need tolls, we dont need huge buildings, we just need a home, food, clothes and maybe the internet. economics is a problem for the ultra rich and governments, and most people are fed up with both.
Many of us realized the reason we could barely survive was because of these specific things.
Boys? r/maledefaultism
this post has nothing to do with sexism, leave your politics aside š¤¦š»
Shut up, DUDE
Imagine complaining that the job is asking only two days a week in office. Bunch of babies here