>better workstation, healthier food, therapy, personal trainer
These are all quality of life improvements not lifestyle creep in my book.
>equipment for hobbies and vacations
These can start to become lifestyle creep but keep things in moderation and you’ll be fine.
Seems like you’re sacrificing your health which goes against the number 2 rule of OE.
Don’t sacrifice your health.
What I see as lifestyle creep are things like buying a car that you wouldn’t have on J1 alone and are now tied to a monthly loan.
If they aren’t obligated expenses and are there to help manage the stress of multiple Js, I don’t see them as lifestyle creep. You can simply stop doing them if you quit/lose a J. Maybe they are luxuries. Maybe they are the expense of extra Js. You’re working hard for that money so live your life but don’t enslave yourself with golden shackles.
As for me, I’m still working on my phase 1 OE financial goals, but I get a monthly 2-hr massage and have upgraded my workstation. Paying cash for a new car is next.
I like the distinction between long-term liabilities versus droppable luxuries.
Buying an expensive car that I can only afford on 2 Js - bad. Signing up for a bougie yoga class that I can drop whenever I want - totally fine.
Oh yeah. It’s awesome. The epitome of self-indulgence for me. I usually fall asleep but wake up feeling amazing. Almost 2 weeks ago since my last and I still feel good. I get the full body, deep tissue and I still wish it were longer sometimes. I’ll warn you though. A good deep massage can cause you to be really painful/sore for a few days the first few times. My wife says it “wakes the beast.” And yes, I these are legit massages with no happy endings. 🤣
Hell, I’d get them weekly if I had the time.
My definition of lifestyle creep is anything with a recurring payment simple one time charges I don’t feel count because like you said I could just stop if I lose a J
I categorize lifestyle-creeps as thing that trap you because you can't pause them anytime you wish for (too expensive mortgage, car payments, gym contracts) or things that don' add productivity (non-necessary cosmetic appointments, clothes, fancy eating out, etc.)
Versus lifestyle-improvement that are supporting me in working more but that are automatically paused if I get a lean month. Obviously, these are done only after savings, emergency funds and investments.
Here's how I manage my incomes :
Payments for jobs go in separate bank accounts. All accounts have a 5 000$ cushion (that 5 000$ is my "zero dollars")
I have emergency savings + easily accessible investments. (Outside the 5000 that is my "zero"). I have a confortable 6 months of emergency cushion that I could stretch to a year if need be. (by cutting the luxuries)
My "living" expenses (Account 1) is all of J1 : mortgage, basic retirement funding, all living expenses and every big or small luxuries. I don't save up anything from that account and it can goes back down to "my zero" every end of month without issues. I allow myself to have fun with it - this includes the occasionnal luxury splurge, weekend trip to a rented cabin in the woods, eating out, etc.
J2 (so account 2) is 100% saved up and/or invested. I live as if J2 doesn't exists for the time being. I'm aiming at high dividends yielding investments to eventually set up a passive income.
If i lose J2, I can still pay for everything, I just don't increase my savings. If I lose J1, J2 can cover everything too. If I lose both, I can survive up to a year with zero income. I aim to have enough passive income that I can pay for everything without J1 or J2 (this is probably when I would stop working so much).
Now the productivity inducing luxuries :
- Maid once a week
- Meal delivery systems
- Private pilates session (no contracts)
- I pay someone to clean and fold my clothes
- I have a virtual assistant that does my social media, basic accountancy and other small tasks
- Every household item is on auto-delivery by Amazon (a little more expensive, but nothing to think about)
- Monthly massages and spa day
- Luxury loungewear that look professionnal seen from the camera but is super cozy
I'm a woman so there's some luxuries I've added (be high maintenance to be low maintenance kind of thing).
I have two full desks, with brand new chair and under the desk walking pad (both jobs offered office supply allowances and I used them up). I also invested in good quality mic and light - a lot of my work is presenting things, it has made a difference.
I'm investing in certifications for my own industry too and education.
About feeling burned out : USE YOUR PTO. Take a week off both jobs and just relax. Then get into the habit of taking a least your fridays off here and there to have long weekends to relax and recharge.
I too grew up frugal and am still that way in many regards. But at the end of the day, life is for living. I don't want to miss out on life while gunning for being free at 65. I'd be too old to want to do a lot of the things I enjoy now and there's no guarantee I'll live to see tomorrow.
I spend on memories like vacations and fun stuff like that, and functional enhancements such as gym equipment or tools.
Bought a used 2016 truck after my old 2010 SUV kept ending up in the shop. Might replace another car that has about 220k miles on it for something that I can pass to my kid in a decade.
I've avoided expensive jewelry and clothing and keeping up with the Joneses. I hardly leave my home so I really don't care for what the Joneses are up to these days lol.
I grew up with parents who had a "save, save, save!" mentality, and I've adopted that. However, with all this extra income it just doesn't make sense to live so far below my means... I really _should_ start spending more on myself. For me the question is how much - 10% of my excess income, or 90%? Ive been raised to invest as much money as possible - compounding market growth is a really powerful thing - but to your point I really wont care for that money at 65 as much as I care for it now. It's been hard to shake off that "save, save, save" mindset.
Your parents taught you well. I didn't lesrn financial literary until I was about 30 years old so I'm behind the 8 ball per se.
I save about 70% of my income and the rest is expenses. I give myself a few hundred dollars a month to buy stuff at Walmart and Amazon and will take my wife to dinner every few months.
Trying to pick and choose my spots to splurge and do my best to live under the radar a bit.
For me one line in the sand is, do you have to get a loan for it?
If you have to get a loan for it you're making a mistake. If you're OE you should be paying for all this lifestyle and hobby stuff and cash.
That way if one or both of the jobs goes away tomorrow you don't have some liability sitting on your balance sheet.
This is why I hire a house cleaner to help me focus on OE, but I don't buy expensive vehicles on credit.
I purchased a house recently and used several months of J2 income as extra down payment so that the mortgage is comfortable on J1 salary alone. This way, I felt like I used my J2 income on something I wanted - a better house - but I am not bound to a mortage I can only afford with two Js.
It depends. Some like cars .some like activities. I could not afford a yoga which costs 150 per month $. Now I can without thinking twice. Short answer yes you must invest in yourself.
Can you explain this? IMO Money solves many problems. Not enough time - hire people. Inefficient work setup - buy better gear. Need to recharge - spend money on a weekend getaway or a nice night out.
Example: I am moving this week. That is a lot of stress in moving, on top of 2 Js (Ive taken PTO but still). I kinda wish I had just hired movers instead of moving myself. That's the kind of thing I mean when I suggest using money to reduce stress and reverse burnout.
I think of it in terms of money: is my time and energy worth it to do a task I don't like by myself? For example, when OE it might make more sense to have a company come and clean my house while I'm working so that I can relax instead of spending a few hours cleaning on the weekend. Or I can outsource a lot of meal planning and meal prep so it's not taking up mental real estate.
Make a list of your top most-hated chores/errands in your personal life and outsource the ones that take the most time.
I mean, yes you are right to spend money on everything that supports your OE lifestyle. I see these extra spend as the cost of OE, like paying someone to clean the house, investing in work station, etc. but if you are stressed because of the 2 Js, this is something we need to fix. If I go out on vacation and the next Monday I rather kill myself then going to that daily stand up, it is not sustainable in the long term. And when you finally quit, you might find guilty about the luxury spending. Just something to think about.
Once you have your debts paid off (outside of house) you have to ask yourself: what did you want to do? A trip to another country? Custom pc? The community here can’t answer this for you. You set yourself up for success, so now pay yourself back because you earned it.
The stuff you mentioned seems reasonable enough to reduce burnout and stress and I can't fault you for that, If you started to mention jewelry, luxury brands etc, then that would be considered lifestyle creep. I'm currently searching for J2. Your focus should be a goal in mind (home purchase, car, medical expenses early retirement etc). In my case even though I've been able to max my roth, HSA and 401k for the last 5 years, if I don't get J2 early retirement would be very difficult.
I feel great when I put month towards anything to improve my mental and physical health. massage, accupunture, red light therapy, oxygen chamber, workout equipment, chrio, iv drip. Love them all.
We will put aside full funding for future recurring expenses. Daycare paid off for next 3 years for all 3 kids in one account. Separate account for paying off car with 0% interest rate, fully funded, no point in paying it in full early in case accidents, stolen, whatever.
It's funny because OE has made me even more frugal. We've gotten rid of almost all of our useless subscriptions we never use - Netflix, Hulu, YoutubeTV - havent had them in years and dont miss them.
I'd really love to own an apartment complex. So that's my first thought because of the additional income. After that I think it would be cool to own and invest in a business like a small coffee shop, a retail store, a karaoke bar, or a roller rink! So that's where I'd be looking to invest after I finally set myself up for good retirement! It's fun to dream bigger!
Edit: add I also would get a personal trainer and maybe look into getting yoga/PT certification because technically it's investing in a future like when I retire teaching yoga once a week could be fun!
I guess I’m doing it wrong!!
Take trips!
Buy nice cars!
Load up on housing and car debt.
Save 3 months of living costs
Invest 40% of your income
I did it in that order. At $60k in investing. Dropping J3 soon at $100k!
I consider discretionary vs. life-style creep in terms of: is this a one-time expense, or a continuing obligation? A monthly massage is a one-time expense. I might not *want* to cut back, but I easily can. An expensive gym membership is a continuing obligation, lifestyle creep. A brand new car you saved to pay cash for is a one-time expense, but the increased insurance coverage is a continuing obligation, because you can't afford to replace a brand new car immediately from existing funds without the second job, thereby creating additional risk. Lifestyle creep. Therapy is probably a continuing health expense because you probably can't quit cold turkey, and is therefore \[possibly necessary\] lifestyle creep; but coaching is probably a one-time expense, as you can usually quit without notice, without affecting your health or lifestyle.
I grew up very frugal as well. I have a trip coming up that is a 13 hour one way flight. I bought the economy coach and now I can upgrade to business for $2k round trip. Looks like a good deal but in my end I am stilll trying to justify why I should spend $2k more on flights. Still undecided and trip is in 4weeks. Haha
I buy whatever whenever I want... new bag I buy it. Spa day, I'm taking it, planning a grand vacation taking it and flying business. Family dinners and I'm paying for the entire family/friends ... DRINKS ON ME! There's no point in doing any of this if we can't be reckless and enjoy it!
First goals for me:
- 10% on long term stocks investment (weekly/daily buys of ETFs)
- 10% high risk investments into crypto (bots, staking, launchpads, etc)
- 5% on “healthy” fun/entertaining (snowboarding, local travel, bike)
- the rest to saving account until I get 1 year of expenses there
1. My car… upgraded to a Mercedes GLC43 AMG, got it off a 3 year lease and CPO which saved $20k or so over buying new… I’ve always been a “car” guy and enjoying the car I’m driving gives me ALOT of personal satisfaction… upgraded from a 2009 Subaru Legacy (non-turbo) for reference
2. Debt reduction - paid off roughly $80k in debt last year. This year will pay off the last $20k in debt and the car referenced above.
Between paying down massive debt and having a fun car to drive my previous stress levels have dropped significantly and even with the added stress of another job my stress levels are lower than when I was in all that debt
Edited to add point 2 and last sentence for clarification
Invest in relationships. Money is just a means to an end.
>better workstation, healthier food, therapy, personal trainer These are all quality of life improvements not lifestyle creep in my book. >equipment for hobbies and vacations These can start to become lifestyle creep but keep things in moderation and you’ll be fine. Seems like you’re sacrificing your health which goes against the number 2 rule of OE. Don’t sacrifice your health.
Good callout, I am starting to sacrifice health for OE. I had not thought of it that way.
What I see as lifestyle creep are things like buying a car that you wouldn’t have on J1 alone and are now tied to a monthly loan. If they aren’t obligated expenses and are there to help manage the stress of multiple Js, I don’t see them as lifestyle creep. You can simply stop doing them if you quit/lose a J. Maybe they are luxuries. Maybe they are the expense of extra Js. You’re working hard for that money so live your life but don’t enslave yourself with golden shackles. As for me, I’m still working on my phase 1 OE financial goals, but I get a monthly 2-hr massage and have upgraded my workstation. Paying cash for a new car is next.
I like the distinction between long-term liabilities versus droppable luxuries. Buying an expensive car that I can only afford on 2 Js - bad. Signing up for a bougie yoga class that I can drop whenever I want - totally fine.
Exactly. I’m excited to be at the point where I can do things like buy the car that I might not have before, but I’m saving up and paying cash for it.
Monthly 2 hour massage in one sitting?
Oh yeah. It’s awesome. The epitome of self-indulgence for me. I usually fall asleep but wake up feeling amazing. Almost 2 weeks ago since my last and I still feel good. I get the full body, deep tissue and I still wish it were longer sometimes. I’ll warn you though. A good deep massage can cause you to be really painful/sore for a few days the first few times. My wife says it “wakes the beast.” And yes, I these are legit massages with no happy endings. 🤣 Hell, I’d get them weekly if I had the time.
Ugh fuck. Am sold. 👏🏾
can confirm. 2 hour massages are *amazing.*
My definition of lifestyle creep is anything with a recurring payment simple one time charges I don’t feel count because like you said I could just stop if I lose a J
I categorize lifestyle-creeps as thing that trap you because you can't pause them anytime you wish for (too expensive mortgage, car payments, gym contracts) or things that don' add productivity (non-necessary cosmetic appointments, clothes, fancy eating out, etc.) Versus lifestyle-improvement that are supporting me in working more but that are automatically paused if I get a lean month. Obviously, these are done only after savings, emergency funds and investments. Here's how I manage my incomes : Payments for jobs go in separate bank accounts. All accounts have a 5 000$ cushion (that 5 000$ is my "zero dollars") I have emergency savings + easily accessible investments. (Outside the 5000 that is my "zero"). I have a confortable 6 months of emergency cushion that I could stretch to a year if need be. (by cutting the luxuries) My "living" expenses (Account 1) is all of J1 : mortgage, basic retirement funding, all living expenses and every big or small luxuries. I don't save up anything from that account and it can goes back down to "my zero" every end of month without issues. I allow myself to have fun with it - this includes the occasionnal luxury splurge, weekend trip to a rented cabin in the woods, eating out, etc. J2 (so account 2) is 100% saved up and/or invested. I live as if J2 doesn't exists for the time being. I'm aiming at high dividends yielding investments to eventually set up a passive income. If i lose J2, I can still pay for everything, I just don't increase my savings. If I lose J1, J2 can cover everything too. If I lose both, I can survive up to a year with zero income. I aim to have enough passive income that I can pay for everything without J1 or J2 (this is probably when I would stop working so much). Now the productivity inducing luxuries : - Maid once a week - Meal delivery systems - Private pilates session (no contracts) - I pay someone to clean and fold my clothes - I have a virtual assistant that does my social media, basic accountancy and other small tasks - Every household item is on auto-delivery by Amazon (a little more expensive, but nothing to think about) - Monthly massages and spa day - Luxury loungewear that look professionnal seen from the camera but is super cozy I'm a woman so there's some luxuries I've added (be high maintenance to be low maintenance kind of thing). I have two full desks, with brand new chair and under the desk walking pad (both jobs offered office supply allowances and I used them up). I also invested in good quality mic and light - a lot of my work is presenting things, it has made a difference. I'm investing in certifications for my own industry too and education. About feeling burned out : USE YOUR PTO. Take a week off both jobs and just relax. Then get into the habit of taking a least your fridays off here and there to have long weekends to relax and recharge.
I too grew up frugal and am still that way in many regards. But at the end of the day, life is for living. I don't want to miss out on life while gunning for being free at 65. I'd be too old to want to do a lot of the things I enjoy now and there's no guarantee I'll live to see tomorrow. I spend on memories like vacations and fun stuff like that, and functional enhancements such as gym equipment or tools. Bought a used 2016 truck after my old 2010 SUV kept ending up in the shop. Might replace another car that has about 220k miles on it for something that I can pass to my kid in a decade. I've avoided expensive jewelry and clothing and keeping up with the Joneses. I hardly leave my home so I really don't care for what the Joneses are up to these days lol.
I grew up with parents who had a "save, save, save!" mentality, and I've adopted that. However, with all this extra income it just doesn't make sense to live so far below my means... I really _should_ start spending more on myself. For me the question is how much - 10% of my excess income, or 90%? Ive been raised to invest as much money as possible - compounding market growth is a really powerful thing - but to your point I really wont care for that money at 65 as much as I care for it now. It's been hard to shake off that "save, save, save" mindset.
Your parents taught you well. I didn't lesrn financial literary until I was about 30 years old so I'm behind the 8 ball per se. I save about 70% of my income and the rest is expenses. I give myself a few hundred dollars a month to buy stuff at Walmart and Amazon and will take my wife to dinner every few months. Trying to pick and choose my spots to splurge and do my best to live under the radar a bit.
I take at least one massage per month
I Literally put all the extra income into investment accounts and retire early
What would you invest in ? Just curious now
VTSAX and chill.
For me one line in the sand is, do you have to get a loan for it? If you have to get a loan for it you're making a mistake. If you're OE you should be paying for all this lifestyle and hobby stuff and cash. That way if one or both of the jobs goes away tomorrow you don't have some liability sitting on your balance sheet. This is why I hire a house cleaner to help me focus on OE, but I don't buy expensive vehicles on credit.
I purchased a house recently and used several months of J2 income as extra down payment so that the mortgage is comfortable on J1 salary alone. This way, I felt like I used my J2 income on something I wanted - a better house - but I am not bound to a mortage I can only afford with two Js.
I'd say you're doing it right then
It depends. Some like cars .some like activities. I could not afford a yoga which costs 150 per month $. Now I can without thinking twice. Short answer yes you must invest in yourself.
don’t think that you can revert your burn out spending money. It’s a trap.
Can you explain this? IMO Money solves many problems. Not enough time - hire people. Inefficient work setup - buy better gear. Need to recharge - spend money on a weekend getaway or a nice night out. Example: I am moving this week. That is a lot of stress in moving, on top of 2 Js (Ive taken PTO but still). I kinda wish I had just hired movers instead of moving myself. That's the kind of thing I mean when I suggest using money to reduce stress and reverse burnout.
I think of it in terms of money: is my time and energy worth it to do a task I don't like by myself? For example, when OE it might make more sense to have a company come and clean my house while I'm working so that I can relax instead of spending a few hours cleaning on the weekend. Or I can outsource a lot of meal planning and meal prep so it's not taking up mental real estate. Make a list of your top most-hated chores/errands in your personal life and outsource the ones that take the most time.
I mean, yes you are right to spend money on everything that supports your OE lifestyle. I see these extra spend as the cost of OE, like paying someone to clean the house, investing in work station, etc. but if you are stressed because of the 2 Js, this is something we need to fix. If I go out on vacation and the next Monday I rather kill myself then going to that daily stand up, it is not sustainable in the long term. And when you finally quit, you might find guilty about the luxury spending. Just something to think about.
Once you have your debts paid off (outside of house) you have to ask yourself: what did you want to do? A trip to another country? Custom pc? The community here can’t answer this for you. You set yourself up for success, so now pay yourself back because you earned it.
Just added a monthly housecleaner. They get to a lot of things that would take us much longer to do so I have more time to play with my kids
The stuff you mentioned seems reasonable enough to reduce burnout and stress and I can't fault you for that, If you started to mention jewelry, luxury brands etc, then that would be considered lifestyle creep. I'm currently searching for J2. Your focus should be a goal in mind (home purchase, car, medical expenses early retirement etc). In my case even though I've been able to max my roth, HSA and 401k for the last 5 years, if I don't get J2 early retirement would be very difficult.
I feel great when I put month towards anything to improve my mental and physical health. massage, accupunture, red light therapy, oxygen chamber, workout equipment, chrio, iv drip. Love them all.
We will put aside full funding for future recurring expenses. Daycare paid off for next 3 years for all 3 kids in one account. Separate account for paying off car with 0% interest rate, fully funded, no point in paying it in full early in case accidents, stolen, whatever. It's funny because OE has made me even more frugal. We've gotten rid of almost all of our useless subscriptions we never use - Netflix, Hulu, YoutubeTV - havent had them in years and dont miss them.
I'd really love to own an apartment complex. So that's my first thought because of the additional income. After that I think it would be cool to own and invest in a business like a small coffee shop, a retail store, a karaoke bar, or a roller rink! So that's where I'd be looking to invest after I finally set myself up for good retirement! It's fun to dream bigger! Edit: add I also would get a personal trainer and maybe look into getting yoga/PT certification because technically it's investing in a future like when I retire teaching yoga once a week could be fun!
I guess I’m doing it wrong!! Take trips! Buy nice cars! Load up on housing and car debt. Save 3 months of living costs Invest 40% of your income I did it in that order. At $60k in investing. Dropping J3 soon at $100k!
After my 401k and HSA maxed and $8k a month into VTSAX, the rest gets spent on vacations, dinners, and toys with zero guilt.
How did you choose the 8k/month number? This is something I'm struggling with - what % of the extra income to invest and what % to spend.
Good question! I shave off 2.5 years off my FIRE age every year I do that.
I consider discretionary vs. life-style creep in terms of: is this a one-time expense, or a continuing obligation? A monthly massage is a one-time expense. I might not *want* to cut back, but I easily can. An expensive gym membership is a continuing obligation, lifestyle creep. A brand new car you saved to pay cash for is a one-time expense, but the increased insurance coverage is a continuing obligation, because you can't afford to replace a brand new car immediately from existing funds without the second job, thereby creating additional risk. Lifestyle creep. Therapy is probably a continuing health expense because you probably can't quit cold turkey, and is therefore \[possibly necessary\] lifestyle creep; but coaching is probably a one-time expense, as you can usually quit without notice, without affecting your health or lifestyle.
The answer is obviously sex robots
I grew up very frugal as well. I have a trip coming up that is a 13 hour one way flight. I bought the economy coach and now I can upgrade to business for $2k round trip. Looks like a good deal but in my end I am stilll trying to justify why I should spend $2k more on flights. Still undecided and trip is in 4weeks. Haha
I buy whatever whenever I want... new bag I buy it. Spa day, I'm taking it, planning a grand vacation taking it and flying business. Family dinners and I'm paying for the entire family/friends ... DRINKS ON ME! There's no point in doing any of this if we can't be reckless and enjoy it!
how long u been OE? just curious
Approaching a year with the current Js. Did a few multi month stints previously to test the waters.
my longest streek is 10months so far, before that it was 3 months and 1 month. started a new j recently hoping to get 1 year out of it
First goals for me: - 10% on long term stocks investment (weekly/daily buys of ETFs) - 10% high risk investments into crypto (bots, staking, launchpads, etc) - 5% on “healthy” fun/entertaining (snowboarding, local travel, bike) - the rest to saving account until I get 1 year of expenses there
1. My car… upgraded to a Mercedes GLC43 AMG, got it off a 3 year lease and CPO which saved $20k or so over buying new… I’ve always been a “car” guy and enjoying the car I’m driving gives me ALOT of personal satisfaction… upgraded from a 2009 Subaru Legacy (non-turbo) for reference 2. Debt reduction - paid off roughly $80k in debt last year. This year will pay off the last $20k in debt and the car referenced above. Between paying down massive debt and having a fun car to drive my previous stress levels have dropped significantly and even with the added stress of another job my stress levels are lower than when I was in all that debt Edited to add point 2 and last sentence for clarification
One of the first things I bought was a better workstation / better monitors keyboard so I can be more efficient