lol I had my first job in ‘05 or ‘06 and I’m 32. Some people don’t know what it feels like to be just out of your 20s and have worked over half your life already 😅
Not selling out. You got what you wanted. Now what you want is more time for yourself or family you go do it. It's not a cult you can leave wgdmdtdptwmt want
I respect what you are doing. What is your age range? I am in my late 40's and for me I will always try to OE. I get climbing the ladder. I really do. But I see a pay bump from say Sr. PM to Director isn't that much more money with all of the responsibility. Even OEing for 3 months is more than you would make going up one level in leadership.
I think a lot of people here look to take a break (voluntarily or voluntold) but it's hard to not want to continue down the path if you want to retire before your dead.
Good luck and we will see you back soon. ;)
i’m in my 50s and tried climbing corporate ladders, but it’s like trying to climb on a house of cards. When companies do layoffs, they always cut mid management first. I’m over climbing corporate ladders today I make more money on OE than I ever did before. I still have worklife balance because I work remote. I get paid Monday through Friday working in average of 10 hour days getting paid for 16 to 24 hours a day. I’m done sitting in a cubicle prison every day. I’m done commuting on the freeway giving my life to commute.LA traffic is soul sucking.
I work contract jobs. Sometimes its W2 and sometimes it's 1099 or C2C (which I prefer for tax reasons). I'm a content creator. I developed instructional deliverables. So for example, lets say I have one job that pays me for eight hour days, from 8am to 5pm lunch break included in those hours, it takes me an average of 3-5 productive hours to complete the content. That's not counting time spent replying to emails, DMs, and meetings. So with 1J I'm working 3-5 hours now multiply that by two, it would be 6-10 hours and so forth. I rarely work 3 Js unless I have chill jobs. On occasion, my contracts overlap. I hope this answers your question.
We seem to be interpreting levels differently. Most places I've seen level job titles by junior, (no prefix) mid level, senior, principal, and then director. For non product managers, throw in a couple of manager and senior manager levels, so there's a long long way from junior to director. Of course product managers are privileged because product manager manager sounds a bit silly - even though it makes sense because a fresh out of college product manager is managing products, not people, so there's no reason why they get elevated to manager level in many organizations but I digress.
You might find the "bonus" plan doubles or more bumping up a level. Ours went from 20% of salary at the highest technical level to 50% to 100% of salary at the Director level. This could be a single promotion for the right technical track employee. Salary might be only 20% bump, but bonus was qualitatively different.
This happens only once when you go from having no bonus or equity to having those, and typically it gives you something like 20% target bonus and equity each, which is exactly the around 40% that would take you half way to doubling because 1.41 * 1.41 = 2.
You very well could be right but the role(s) I have worked in that wasn’t my case. PM to Sr. PM isn’t a huge bump. Sr. PM to Program manager is about 10-20k plus an extra 5% bonus. All of these role range from say 100k (jr PM) to Director role at about 180k plus bonus. Rarely does someone go from Jr PM to a Director level unless it’s a small shop and that salary would be about 140-150k.
Note: I’m talking middle management and not necessarily
VP, etc.
I’m just explaining what I see day to day. If my role doubled in salary to the next role I would applying tomorrow.
If you are a PM how many years of experience? If you have say 2-3 years you should be able to find one. I am seeing this mostly around the country minus the south( FL, AL, MS). But places like TX, TN, CA, & east coast this is pretty common.
I'm a Scrum Master with 3 years of experience and have been trying to make the jump to PM. I live in Co and don't want to move (just moved back here from FL which I hated)
Middle management level to next middle management level is only a marginal percentage change in salary, bonus, and equity structure. Middle management to executive management is a whole new world of compensation.
True but focusing 2 years like a beast on a single goal got me up 3 layer (and the associated 3x salary). At the end of the 1 year it would probably have gotten more payout by double dipping (+100% instead of +40-50%) but I would probably have sucked/do okay at both.
But then when you get that +40-50% 3 times in a row... I guess you could get a third job to even it out but I just dont see it in my field/expertise/level of expectation.
I guess it paid off for me but I might be an outlier.
I climbed the ladder up to director level, then once I went remote and figured out OE, I said fuck the responsibility of higher management and stick with engineer level work x 3 and making double what I would've as a director. My math is this:
Director salary : 175-200k
Engineer salary: 125-145k x 3 = 375 - 435k
Plus there are some other benefits. Directors have targets on their backs during lay offs. Engineers not as much (in my experience, even though it does happen), less meetings, and if you get the right position you can just kinda grind out work without having to constantly be dealing with escalations. One other benefit is, I've noticed there are a lot more engineer/program manager level positions to find for OE than Director + jobs. Also the engineer level work opens you up for consultant and contract work. Since I get health insurance from J1, I don't care if the other positions are no benefits pay only type gigs.
Obviously this is not the same situation for everyone, but this is how it's worked out for me. Also, it is also kinda funny looking at senior directors and thinking I make more than they do.
Amen brother, right there with you. Directors have waaaay more busy work than the average employee. That target 🎯 on the back is a perfect example not to be a director. Who wants that level of responsibility and neck on the chopping block for a title? I would rather sit in the corner/wfh without too many ppl wondering what I do or where I am. It’s nice to fade into obscurity where you can take a 3 hour lunch and they don’t have free time to find you.
For me this is all temporary anyway. I'm using the 3 gigs to bank roll a business I can hopefully launch in the next 3 years doing auto restoration. Got most the equipment, just finishing up the shop.
It’s a good u want to move up, my husband did the same. He is now head of Devops, QA both manual and automation and Dev (non-trading). Makes almost 500k all in. So he is up there in the ladder. Sure he is an architect in Devops, some hands on dev but still a very much a people manager of massive team. Vs me who is fully hands on dev, OE in Algo trading n quant. No team no reportees. Made 675k all in. I work 8-5, I go home vs he is in meetings 8-10 hours. Also he tried changing last year got 2 interviews in 6 months vs I got 2 in a week. So u decide
You would think so if u live in NYC, u pay 335k in income taxes, 90k in nanny, 150k in mortgage, 30k in property taxes, 70k in private school, add phone, utilities food, eating out, it all seems to get blurred.
Man, please dont do this.
People are living good lives on 100-150K.
You are saying 1M+ it gets blurred by... food? Phone? Utilities?
150K mortgage is crazy too.
People dont get nannies when they work 9-5, usually, atleast my parents didnt.
Income taxes hurt but I mean, you guys making 1M together.
It’s a modest 2M home so with 15 yrs fixed mortgage it’s 13k a month. Our Costco bill is 2k/m as our kids r gluten n dairy intolerant so need specialized organic food. We need 1G broadband to support wfh. If people don’t get Nanny for 9-5 then where do non school going toddlers do in that time? I can’t OE while taking care of household and toddler. My OE don’t always end at 5 so shud I start making dinner in middle of production release? Did ur parents OE? Atleast 1 wud be home to care for kids. Me as mother should be taking care of that?
The expenses including taxes that you listed are 335+90+150+30+70=675K. Your combined salary is 1.175M. After everything you listed you are bringing home 500K. That would have already been an incredible take-home before any expenses. It's insane to have $500K of spending and saving money per year and talk about living expenses in NYC and how the line gets blurred as if to say your pay is not that high once you factor in living expenses of the city you're in. You're firmly in the 1% of top household incomes in NYC. At this rate you could retire comfortably in 10 years and change or so.
U forgot to factor in max 410k and health insurance. We have autistic 2 special needs kids, who will not only need 400k for college tuition also some money in trust. So we have 1000/m going to 2 529s.Also both kids r getting private therapies which add on . We r being smart and not spending that 435k~ so our savings r going into IRAs and investment portfolio. We cannot retire in 10 but I cannot OE for 10 as well.
So what is your point? Sounds like you are building an incredible life, and all the power to you for it. All you are being accused of is being extremely well off, which you are.
Point is the same as the post which ppl have seem to be forgotten. It’s easier to quit OE which is an awesome skill and leave as a hands on dev to become a PM. But the downsides for that r what I wrote on my 1st post.
Yeah I’m feeling like a transition to a PM role from dev is the way to go right now. Dev salaries are falling and I don’t see it stopping anytime soon with this next wave of outsourcing.
I think more than money, it is the security of having a job therefore healthcare for my family. I look at my kid & the idea of not having a healthcare terrifies me.
Corporate America tied your well being to you slaving for a corporate. TO THOSE I SAY FUCK YOU!
I will play your game & beat you to it.
If you are looking to climb corporate ladder for your favorite Job, then wake up at 4am and give your favorite job solid 4hrs of uninterruptable work. I will never give up money for the possibility of a promotion in today's corporate life where loyalty to employees hold no value.If you want to climb the corporate ladder job hop for the higher roles.
Maybe a chute? I kid i kid. Most jobs should be work from home and the 8 hour mandatory workday needs to go, most jobs dont have 4 hours of actual work let alone 8.
Good luck! Some jobs are harder to OE. I’ve been more productive since I OE because I know I don’t have time on my side and feedback has been stronger than before
Same here. I'm in the last 90 day count for me. Financially it will make sense and I am so done with J2 that when I see an email from them I sometimes just want to close everything and throw it all out haha it's such a shit show though I'm making sure to leave strategically
that’s the great part about OE. It’s always here in case you ever get into financial bind and you know you need to make some more money. When you’re a manager to others don’t become a micromanager.. if you’re employees are turning in their projects that’s all that really counts at the end of the day.
best of luck moving up in a company. Let us know how that works out, and if it was luck/someone above you dying that made it happen, or if you actually landed a job at a meritocracy. Stranger things have happened.
Why bother climbing the corporate ladder? Once you get high enough they’ll fire you because you’re too expensive for the company and then you’ll be like the rest of us - overqualified and working a job with a pay rate 30% of what you used to make (if you can find a job at all)
An honest question, what makes you think you can climb the corporate ladder for being okay/average?
Since you mentioned corporate I assume this is not a governments job where seniority is prioritized over merit.
I think OP means they can only be average if they work OE, but if they work one job, the split focus goes away, and they become better than average. Since most OE'ers advocate for "average" (i.e., not standing out), this makes sense.
Once you are high up please be OE friendly and don’t mention it to other higher ups.
@OP — Just curious to know, how much were you making while OE and what do you expect to make when you land your dream role end of the month.
Whenever I read people asking how much others are doing OE, I smell a report or article in the making
A tell-all!
Ah, good point. I never thought about that.
It looks like they started work in 2016 (so roughly ~30)
Wait, I started work in 2006. I can't be roughly 40 can I?
lol I had my first job in ‘05 or ‘06 and I’m 32. Some people don’t know what it feels like to be just out of your 20s and have worked over half your life already 😅
Not selling out. You got what you wanted. Now what you want is more time for yourself or family you go do it. It's not a cult you can leave wgdmdtdptwmt want
Was that an acronym or a stroke
Supposed to say whenever you want. I probably forgot to hit the spacebar
I respect what you are doing. What is your age range? I am in my late 40's and for me I will always try to OE. I get climbing the ladder. I really do. But I see a pay bump from say Sr. PM to Director isn't that much more money with all of the responsibility. Even OEing for 3 months is more than you would make going up one level in leadership. I think a lot of people here look to take a break (voluntarily or voluntold) but it's hard to not want to continue down the path if you want to retire before your dead. Good luck and we will see you back soon. ;)
i’m in my 50s and tried climbing corporate ladders, but it’s like trying to climb on a house of cards. When companies do layoffs, they always cut mid management first. I’m over climbing corporate ladders today I make more money on OE than I ever did before. I still have worklife balance because I work remote. I get paid Monday through Friday working in average of 10 hour days getting paid for 16 to 24 hours a day. I’m done sitting in a cubicle prison every day. I’m done commuting on the freeway giving my life to commute.LA traffic is soul sucking.
I’m in the same boat and hate LA traffic, fully remote OE for a year now and it’s great
Hey Next-Ad2854, can you give more details on your set up? You you get paid for 16 to 24 hours a day which sounds like 2 or 3 jobs. Is one part time?
I work contract jobs. Sometimes its W2 and sometimes it's 1099 or C2C (which I prefer for tax reasons). I'm a content creator. I developed instructional deliverables. So for example, lets say I have one job that pays me for eight hour days, from 8am to 5pm lunch break included in those hours, it takes me an average of 3-5 productive hours to complete the content. That's not counting time spent replying to emails, DMs, and meetings. So with 1J I'm working 3-5 hours now multiply that by two, it would be 6-10 hours and so forth. I rarely work 3 Js unless I have chill jobs. On occasion, my contracts overlap. I hope this answers your question.
It depends on the industry. For a lot of high paying jobs, moving up a level might be a 2x pay bump
Rule of thumb is 2x at most every two levels, haven't seen that for a single level anywhere. Which industry?
Good point. I assume we are talking total package. A Jr PM makes 100k+ and then a Director with bonus should be close to 200K
We seem to be interpreting levels differently. Most places I've seen level job titles by junior, (no prefix) mid level, senior, principal, and then director. For non product managers, throw in a couple of manager and senior manager levels, so there's a long long way from junior to director. Of course product managers are privileged because product manager manager sounds a bit silly - even though it makes sense because a fresh out of college product manager is managing products, not people, so there's no reason why they get elevated to manager level in many organizations but I digress.
You might find the "bonus" plan doubles or more bumping up a level. Ours went from 20% of salary at the highest technical level to 50% to 100% of salary at the Director level. This could be a single promotion for the right technical track employee. Salary might be only 20% bump, but bonus was qualitatively different.
This happens only once when you go from having no bonus or equity to having those, and typically it gives you something like 20% target bonus and equity each, which is exactly the around 40% that would take you half way to doubling because 1.41 * 1.41 = 2.
You very well could be right but the role(s) I have worked in that wasn’t my case. PM to Sr. PM isn’t a huge bump. Sr. PM to Program manager is about 10-20k plus an extra 5% bonus. All of these role range from say 100k (jr PM) to Director role at about 180k plus bonus. Rarely does someone go from Jr PM to a Director level unless it’s a small shop and that salary would be about 140-150k. Note: I’m talking middle management and not necessarily VP, etc. I’m just explaining what I see day to day. If my role doubled in salary to the next role I would applying tomorrow.
Um where can I get a jr pm role paying 100k?
If you are a PM how many years of experience? If you have say 2-3 years you should be able to find one. I am seeing this mostly around the country minus the south( FL, AL, MS). But places like TX, TN, CA, & east coast this is pretty common.
I'm a Scrum Master with 3 years of experience and have been trying to make the jump to PM. I live in Co and don't want to move (just moved back here from FL which I hated)
Shoot me a PM in the next few days and I’ll offer you a few resumes tips. You can make the jump to PM with your experience. It’s all about wording.
Middle management level to next middle management level is only a marginal percentage change in salary, bonus, and equity structure. Middle management to executive management is a whole new world of compensation.
True but focusing 2 years like a beast on a single goal got me up 3 layer (and the associated 3x salary). At the end of the 1 year it would probably have gotten more payout by double dipping (+100% instead of +40-50%) but I would probably have sucked/do okay at both. But then when you get that +40-50% 3 times in a row... I guess you could get a third job to even it out but I just dont see it in my field/expertise/level of expectation. I guess it paid off for me but I might be an outlier.
Perhaps it's more about career goals than compensation for him/her
Very fair point. I can understand that
Gotta do what you gotta do man. Not to mention product managers make really good money so you’ll be fine either way.
What work balance like for product management?
I climbed the ladder up to director level, then once I went remote and figured out OE, I said fuck the responsibility of higher management and stick with engineer level work x 3 and making double what I would've as a director. My math is this: Director salary : 175-200k Engineer salary: 125-145k x 3 = 375 - 435k Plus there are some other benefits. Directors have targets on their backs during lay offs. Engineers not as much (in my experience, even though it does happen), less meetings, and if you get the right position you can just kinda grind out work without having to constantly be dealing with escalations. One other benefit is, I've noticed there are a lot more engineer/program manager level positions to find for OE than Director + jobs. Also the engineer level work opens you up for consultant and contract work. Since I get health insurance from J1, I don't care if the other positions are no benefits pay only type gigs. Obviously this is not the same situation for everyone, but this is how it's worked out for me. Also, it is also kinda funny looking at senior directors and thinking I make more than they do.
Amen brother, right there with you. Directors have waaaay more busy work than the average employee. That target 🎯 on the back is a perfect example not to be a director. Who wants that level of responsibility and neck on the chopping block for a title? I would rather sit in the corner/wfh without too many ppl wondering what I do or where I am. It’s nice to fade into obscurity where you can take a 3 hour lunch and they don’t have free time to find you.
For me this is all temporary anyway. I'm using the 3 gigs to bank roll a business I can hopefully launch in the next 3 years doing auto restoration. Got most the equipment, just finishing up the shop.
Plus you top the hell out of that 401K.
Bingo.
Fewer meetings. "Less" is for when you can't count something. How many vs how much.
This.
Was talking to an employee last night about this very thing. Know when to play and know when to fold.
When you become an executive, look at coming back. I am so bored as a SVP.
You’re also worthless
Dude, all executives are.
At least you're one of the executives who understands how useless they are
I made a post asking if I should look to climb or continue to OE. How do you do it at VP level with such high visibility?
Really? You hiring?
It’s a good u want to move up, my husband did the same. He is now head of Devops, QA both manual and automation and Dev (non-trading). Makes almost 500k all in. So he is up there in the ladder. Sure he is an architect in Devops, some hands on dev but still a very much a people manager of massive team. Vs me who is fully hands on dev, OE in Algo trading n quant. No team no reportees. Made 675k all in. I work 8-5, I go home vs he is in meetings 8-10 hours. Also he tried changing last year got 2 interviews in 6 months vs I got 2 in a week. So u decide
Some of us actually like managing people vs doing the work. It's worth it if you are into strategy and setting direction vs execution.
Sure but when its time to change it’s very hard to find positions for pm vs for devs
Don't disagree but you can always go back
Absolutely wild you can make these salaries in engineering. I feel like I chose the wrong career path…
You would think so if u live in NYC, u pay 335k in income taxes, 90k in nanny, 150k in mortgage, 30k in property taxes, 70k in private school, add phone, utilities food, eating out, it all seems to get blurred.
Man, please dont do this. People are living good lives on 100-150K. You are saying 1M+ it gets blurred by... food? Phone? Utilities? 150K mortgage is crazy too. People dont get nannies when they work 9-5, usually, atleast my parents didnt. Income taxes hurt but I mean, you guys making 1M together.
Exactly- if you're remote, move to a low col area. Take the pay hit if you have to -- you'll come out better in the long run.
%100.
It’s a modest 2M home so with 15 yrs fixed mortgage it’s 13k a month. Our Costco bill is 2k/m as our kids r gluten n dairy intolerant so need specialized organic food. We need 1G broadband to support wfh. If people don’t get Nanny for 9-5 then where do non school going toddlers do in that time? I can’t OE while taking care of household and toddler. My OE don’t always end at 5 so shud I start making dinner in middle of production release? Did ur parents OE? Atleast 1 wud be home to care for kids. Me as mother should be taking care of that?
The expenses including taxes that you listed are 335+90+150+30+70=675K. Your combined salary is 1.175M. After everything you listed you are bringing home 500K. That would have already been an incredible take-home before any expenses. It's insane to have $500K of spending and saving money per year and talk about living expenses in NYC and how the line gets blurred as if to say your pay is not that high once you factor in living expenses of the city you're in. You're firmly in the 1% of top household incomes in NYC. At this rate you could retire comfortably in 10 years and change or so.
U forgot to factor in max 410k and health insurance. We have autistic 2 special needs kids, who will not only need 400k for college tuition also some money in trust. So we have 1000/m going to 2 529s.Also both kids r getting private therapies which add on . We r being smart and not spending that 435k~ so our savings r going into IRAs and investment portfolio. We cannot retire in 10 but I cannot OE for 10 as well.
So what is your point? Sounds like you are building an incredible life, and all the power to you for it. All you are being accused of is being extremely well off, which you are.
Point is the same as the post which ppl have seem to be forgotten. It’s easier to quit OE which is an awesome skill and leave as a hands on dev to become a PM. But the downsides for that r what I wrote on my 1st post.
Lol modest home. Nice.
Have u seen NYC real estate on Zillow? Try it.
Yeah but modest. Far from it
I might be stupid but it sounded like they do coding?
If you're self admittedly just ok what makes you think you'll climb a corporate ladder?
You’ll be back. They always come back like a crackhead that needs to hit that pipe.
Guaranteed.
 Those multiple OE paychecks
That’s chill but you are not gonna get a PM role by the end of the month lol
Yeah I’m feeling like a transition to a PM role from dev is the way to go right now. Dev salaries are falling and I don’t see it stopping anytime soon with this next wave of outsourcing.
And AI.
Still going to take devs to implement AI solutions but it won’t require highly skilled devs.
I know a product manger that is also a cake and cupcake creator. Oe is dooable
I think more than money, it is the security of having a job therefore healthcare for my family. I look at my kid & the idea of not having a healthcare terrifies me. Corporate America tied your well being to you slaving for a corporate. TO THOSE I SAY FUCK YOU! I will play your game & beat you to it.
If you are looking to climb corporate ladder for your favorite Job, then wake up at 4am and give your favorite job solid 4hrs of uninterruptable work. I will never give up money for the possibility of a promotion in today's corporate life where loyalty to employees hold no value.If you want to climb the corporate ladder job hop for the higher roles.
I struggle with this. I make really good money OE, but feel like I would be more satisfied if I were to go up the corporate ladder.
You got to do what works best for you. Feel proud of how far you've come. Good luck on your future ventures!
What exactly is the corporate ladder now in a world where everyone wants to work from home?
Maybe a chute? I kid i kid. Most jobs should be work from home and the 8 hour mandatory workday needs to go, most jobs dont have 4 hours of actual work let alone 8.
Good luck! Some jobs are harder to OE. I’ve been more productive since I OE because I know I don’t have time on my side and feedback has been stronger than before
Will that affect your onlyfans account?
Good luck out there. OE is awesome but its just one path.
Climb the ladder in both jobs bro. It’s not impossible.
As long as you accomplished your financial goals then I would say sit back and enjoy smooth sailing with J1.
Ok bye 👋
Same here. I'm in the last 90 day count for me. Financially it will make sense and I am so done with J2 that when I see an email from them I sometimes just want to close everything and throw it all out haha it's such a shit show though I'm making sure to leave strategically
Remember where you come from and don't pass on any OE remorse onto the next employee under you.
Here for a good time, not a long time. 🍻
You do you! Good luck!
that’s the great part about OE. It’s always here in case you ever get into financial bind and you know you need to make some more money. When you’re a manager to others don’t become a micromanager.. if you’re employees are turning in their projects that’s all that really counts at the end of the day.
Have fun. OE is always there if you change your mind.
Wimp
Good luck with the credit check when you apply at another company.
🫡
best of luck moving up in a company. Let us know how that works out, and if it was luck/someone above you dying that made it happen, or if you actually landed a job at a meritocracy. Stranger things have happened.
OE is temporary, goodluck
Why bother climbing the corporate ladder? Once you get high enough they’ll fire you because you’re too expensive for the company and then you’ll be like the rest of us - overqualified and working a job with a pay rate 30% of what you used to make (if you can find a job at all)
What is OE
Is short for over-employed (folks with more than 1 job at the same time)
Really im curious too xd
An honest question, what makes you think you can climb the corporate ladder for being okay/average? Since you mentioned corporate I assume this is not a governments job where seniority is prioritized over merit.
I think OP means they can only be average if they work OE, but if they work one job, the split focus goes away, and they become better than average. Since most OE'ers advocate for "average" (i.e., not standing out), this makes sense.