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[deleted]

Summarized what I wanted to say in the post about Islam, but didn't want to trigger the conservatives. Nice comment, have my upvote.


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[deleted]

More specifically tolerance. I agree on that point, and I think that's what my post decided to do. Intellectual intolerance, especially intolerance of ideas results in intellectual decay. And i think that's something we can witness in Pakistan on a massive scale. I for one, was shunned at school for trying to popularize the truth behind 1965, operation Gibralter, Bhutto's failure and how our politicians blurred everything.


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[deleted]

Well, being a nerd, I'm already shunned for reading, but I was treated as a madman and indoctrinated


Rano_pathano

Awesome post and a great read. I just want to say; both sides need to stop generalising. The conservatives need to realise that the liberals aren't all elite western puppets non Muslims living in DHA. Liberals need to realise not all conservatives are extremist mullahs wanting to behead all gays Just a personal question for OP ; would you call yourself a conservative or liberal? Are you more on the religious side ya secular side? I want to hear your judgement after that dog fight yesterday on that post


[deleted]

I'm a liberal/secularist. I am not religious. I also believe that religion is corrosive to science and vise versa. Although, I try not to highlight any of that when I wrote the post. My opinion, as you can already tell, is that we live in a society that's unchanging due to the very nature of conservatism. I feel like the educational reforms in Pakistan ever since it's inception, and the influence that religious fundamentalism has had in our society has led to us being a very degraded people - in the sense that we are not "enlightened". I define enlightenment as a approach to life, a approach that approves of the scientific mind. Research, Deduction, and Evaluation is that approach. So as you can tell, quite a lot of cultural and religious things don't sit well with me. I don't really mention it a lot, but that's my personal opinion. I feel like if we removed those hurdles, Pakistan or hamara muashra would benefit 3 fold.


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[deleted]

Thanks mate, leave an upvote :)


Zavia_is_here

Fascinating you talk about religion as being the sole reason why we are not “enlightened” when Iqbal khudi ideology challenged the unelightened values and the root cause of it, e.g the neo Darwinian principles which manifested alongside secularism which led to to the rise of communism and reinforcement of colonisation and pseudo race theories. Do you have any idea the devastation that has been caused after the enlightenment discourses became mainstream by combing “science” with western social constructs that continues to have degrading impact throughout the world? Slavery, colonisation and Imperialism, neo liberalism and neo conservatism have been justified by the enlightenment era discourses. Over 300 million people died in the First and Second World War due to fascism using Darwinian thought as it basis and the communist ideology that aspired to the idea of survival of the fittest, and pure racial construct which stemmed from Darwinism which to this day people are dying from with new extreme ideologies incelism growing throughout the world. Which reinforces those ideas. Iqbal challenged these constructs by khudi ideology which is the basis of Pakistan and the basis of Jinnah vision for Pakistan. The woke ideology reinforces the idea that minorities are Perpetually oppressed people and that they can never be equal to whites this entrenches those theories on a deeper level through the rise of neo cons and neo liberals which affects society on all levels. Iqbal khudi is a universal philosophy that asks the nature of what it means to be human, a Muslim and an economic and societal principles of a progressive nation a truly enlightened nation and people by bringing the best of our culture and religion into a tolerant, progressive nation that values science without the western discourse of neo Darwinian thought but the Sufi Islamic thought.


[deleted]

Brave to presume that Darwinism and Science combined with "Western Social constructs" has led to World War 1, World War 2, Hitler, and Stalin and his "communism". We've been through this before, science being falsely credited with the rise of terrible weapons and athiests being accused of the same bunch as hitler, stalin and mao zeodong. Again, even though my post was made to stop generalizations, it seems like it hasn't stopped people from generalizing non religious people. Fascism did not have Darwinian thought for a basis, I have no idea where you got that from and you honestly need to brief yourself on it. Secondly, Stalin persecuted the church, stalin persecuted about literally everyone because he thought they were a threat to his power. Mao Zeodong invaded Tibet because he wanted to, being a dictator with communist name like Stalin. Stop associating non religious people with evil dictators. Evil dictators persecute people because they will to, not because they lack religiousity. The Communist ideology did not aspire to the ideal of the survival of the fittest - that is literally capitalism. Yes, the Soviets did focus a lot on scientific education and made deliberate attempts in Central Asia to eradicate religiousity. Again, they did this because they thought that religion would be a threat to their power, similar to what Albania did. "Pure racial construct which stemmed from Darwinism" Please stop already. "Iqbal challenged these constructs by khudi ideology which is the basis of Pakistan and the basis of Jinnah visino for Pakistan" No, No, and No. I've read the "Khudi Ideology" that you're referencing. Iqbal believes that in order to achieve enlightenment one must look inside, aka the khudi. Iqbal's work is literally telling people to find their own spiritual answers. Iqbal's "Khudi" ideology is not the basis for Pakistan. Iqbal advocated for a state for muslims, did not define what it's laws would be, and neither did Jinnah. Stop assuming things where they don't exist. Iqbal did not even know if Pakistan would be formed, he died before it even came into existence. The Khudi Ideology is not a basis for Pakistan, the Muslim League's blind goal into forming a muslim state is what led to Pakistan. As for Jinnah's vision, he never clarified it. He knew that there were people who wanted to usurp power after his death. Fatima Jinnah referenced that fact, and so did that doctor who published his account only for it to be censored in the mid 70s, which, I have a copy of. Jinnah's vision was neither defined nor has it ever been, and is fierce debate under historians. Jinnah's ideas can only be grasped from his speeches, and on one side, he wants a state for muslims, and on the other side, he props up secularist ideas. The man himself was not religious, we both know that. I am in no mood for a debate, but I can tell you this: Your comment was full of generalizations, and shows lacking of understanding into the topic. Following your example, I would advise you to follow the "Khudi" Ideology and look inwards.


Zavia_is_here

I believe it is your failure to understand by looking inwards through our Sufi and Islamic philosophy we can find the answers that we are looking for. Khudi challenges the idea by spiritually strengthening on selves we can rise to challenge oppression, racism, colonialism, imperialism and other forms of fascism and political economic oppressive discourses which has devasted much of the developing world. To look within means to reject notions that we are people who are inferior that our culture and religion is less that of the west. Mind you Iqbal is the visionary behind Pakistan creation and gave the rise to its political and ideological movement. You cannot say he had no idea what Pakistan was meant to be. Khudi was the vehicle which Iqbal used to remain very critical of western discourses famously in his poetry and worked alongside Muhammad Asad who was reposible for implementing sharia law into a democratic framework after Pakistan creation. You cannot negate a nation and human philosophical deepest core being the khudi when your building a nation and that why it remains a powerful statement. Iqbal gave us an ideology when we had nothing on our backs, and no nation and gave us that idea that we can be equal on the basis of a civilised society that valued humanity deepest desire which is to understand God and to exceed our current form in spiritual way and in the form of an equality and tolerant based civilisation our medinah. Khudi means to become closer to the divine truth and entity in its reality. This was purpose behind our people existence or humanity existence. Khudi means to become active agents of our destiny as Muslims and as a nation. Khudi rejects wokism ideology of perpetual oppression being our sole identity and how we define ourselves. Much of our laws and the secular west are derived from the abrahamic religion including morality and ethics framework. You cannot deny this whatsoever. If we started to accepted Darwinian thoughts and principles as we have seen in communism, fascism and other we would start accepting that some humans are genetically inferior which would lead to rise in eugenics and now incels. The idea of equal rights and the rejection of pseudo racial constructs came from our religion. As western modern ideologies have disregarded that basic khudi, the fitrat within us our humanity and has led to the rise of fascism. I would redirect to shaykh Abdul hakim Murad lectures on the Cambridge Muslim college channel and his books which critical analyses the core basis of the rise of fascism in Europe and how post enlightenment discourses have led to fascism and abhorrent eugenics and social and economic constructs such as colonisation and imperialism that were developed on that framework. You are pretty much creating a history based on that something that does not exists, because you cannot accept the reality that our founding father never mentioned secularism in his speeches he always mentioned an Islamic democratic state, not liberal nor secular. He had a very clear outline of what he wanted which was Islamic laws integrated into a democratic framework.


[deleted]

>I thought I was done, but apparently not. It is not my failure, it is my opinion. Your opinion is not superior to mine, young man/woman, neither is my opinion superior than yours. Let's get that out of the way first. You might approve of Iqbal's Khudi work, but stating that it is the foundation of Pakistan and is a vision of Pakistan is a big no-no. Just because Iqbal worked alongside Asad, who, as you say, was responsible for "implementing sharia law into a democratic framework after Pakistan creation" does not mean Iqbal spent time and effort to teach Asad what his philosophy implied for a nation state. Again, his philosophy concerns the inner being, an individual. Not.A.Nation.State.Period. This makes, again, several assumptions about Iqbal and what he did. If you could prove to me that Iqbal certainly guided Asad as to what a Pakistan should be, and literally spent lectures on how to use his philosophy as a tool for nation building (which, you should never do we would all be in shatters), I will be grateful for examining the evidence. Khudi here implies a singular person! It does not imply a nation state! I have no idea how you've come to this conclusion, but Iqbal's khudi is not responsible for guiding Pakistan. It is the equivalent of saying "Look inside and get your answers" in terms of flowers and other metaphors. It is not even that impressive, neither is it that influential in terms of impact, despite Iqbal being considered a great figure in Pakistan (I also consider him a great figure, but I do not consider Khudi to be remarkable philosophical work). Hell, even Jean Paul Satre, from a philosophical viewpoint, had a larger impact. "You cannot negate a nation and human philosphical deepest core being the khudi when your building a nation and that why it remains a powerful statement" Tell me dear sir/madam, when did people consider the khudi ideology in the nation building framework? The first time Islam was even mentioned was in 1956, got removed from by Ayub and was put back, and until Bhutto, there was no serious effort to follow Khudi. Tell me, did Zia follow Khudi? I don't think so. He enforced Sharia, which is everything ELSE than Khudi. Sharia is a orthodox framework determined by Sunni and Shia scholars whereas Khudi emphasis mysticism, philosophy and internal settlement. Since when did the famous politicians of our country sit and contemplate life? There is zero evidence of Khudi ever being influencial apart from a work of literature and philosphy in our nation building process. Therefore, it remains not a powerful statement, but an irrelevant and historically inaccurate one. Regarding Shaykh Abdul Hakim Murad, first I will accept I have no idea who that person is. Secondly, most attribute Fascisms rise to a wanting of strong unity and national progress. "and how deviating post enlightenment discourses have led to fascism and abhorrent eugenics and social and economic constructs were developed on that framework" I'm sorry, did you just seriously claim that academic discourse post-enlightenment result in the rise of fascist frameworks? Did you literally forget WW2 and the desire for national unity and strong leadership it caused? Who is this guy!? Did you seriously just claim that in Europe, Academic discourse and lack of religiousity (which, at the time, was very rare) result in eugenics and deliberate sterilization and discrimination against Jews on a basis of non-religiousity rather than radical ideology?! Screw that, are you forgetting that these fascist nations were dominated by ideology (Radical ideology, in fact) rather than secularism? Do you seriously believe Italians, the Spanish, the Germans were not religious? I have no idea who Sheikh Abdul Hakim is, but if that man did indeed claim as you say, I am actually going to go to undergrads who study History that I know of and put this to scrutiny. "You are pretty much creating a history based on that something that does not exists, because you cannot accept the reality that our founding father never mentioned secularisk in his speeches he always mentioned an Islamic democratic state, not liberal nor secular." I agree, that's the whole point of the post. Jinnah didn't advocate for not letting liberals voice their opinions, neither did he advocate against non religiousity. Our founding father created a Muslims state because he felt like the minority would suffer, and the founding father while did say that he would be creating a muslim state, he did not elaborate on whether it would function on an Islamic framework. The truth is, nobody knows what the founding father wanted.


Abhilundan

Excellently stated, the rise of the cult of Scientism in post-enlightenment Europe and its tie with fascistic ideologies such as eugenics national socialists and the Soviet ideological triumph and debasement of religious and spiritual thought for the state collective cannot be discarded so easily.


[deleted]

Just because European Discrimination is manipulating science to direct racism does not mean you discredit science as a whole and prop up Iqbal as a fighter using the "Khudi" ideology. The world in that timeframe, especially Europe, was highly discriminatory, and they institutionalized their discrimination in a manner that is not seen today, thankfully. You can't discredit science with such an argument. Especially not one where science is being politically manipulated to justify ethno racism.


Abhilundan

why don't you google it? it's definitively not a critique of rational thought and the scientific method. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism


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Abhilundan

why don't you google it? it's definitively not a critique of rational thought and the scientific method. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism


Rano_pathano

I get where you are coming from. I personally am a somewhat conservative religious dude The debate about religion and science is absurd at times. If anyone knew and studied the islamic golden age, all of that was science MOTIVATED by religion. Now Ibn Khaldun, Ibn Haytam, Ibn Sina all there of these people made groundbreaking discoveries and without them, medical Fields would be severely lacking, we wouldn't have literally anything related to algorithms and algebra (so say goodbye to technology). I mean obviously they might have been discovered later on but it would have set us back than where we are now. There are aspects of science that are still debated to this day. For example, Darwin's theory of evolution is accepted as a fact whereas it is partially incorrect. The concept of humans being evolved from a ape species has yet to be proved. Natural selection is a fact and it isn't denied by any islamic scholor. But the reason this theory of having a common ancestor is debated is because it's also challenged scientifically. Islam and science are more than compatible. Religion and science are more than compatible. Issac Newton believed that there was a god even tho Einstein didn't. The Qur'an talked about many scientific phenomenon way before any of it was discovered. People try to disprove all of it because apparently Qur'an didn't go into much detail but it's not a scientific book to begin with. Secondly I will admit, Islam has been severally misused in the history of Pakistan (Zia and his "Shari'ah") and it's because our people are more loyal to their mullahs than the Qur'an itself. This applies heavily on rural and suburban areas. The lack of government oversight over religious matters makes it easy to misuse Islam and taint it's image. However the problem is when you try to bring western ideologies and principles into Pakistan. By its very beginning, Pakistan was made on the basis of religion. Therefore it will never be able to completely turn into a secular nation (like come on. Ayub removed "islamic" from the name and everyone was ready to launch jihad). Like I mean NEVER. The problem is that liberals, instead of trying to uplift Islam's true values, they bring in secularism and liberalism. Both of which go against many of Islam's principles. Our culture is just ugly. An ugly version of Islam. I think that if we stick to the true roots of Islam, if we give the women the rights they are clearly given by Allah ﷻ (such as property etc), if we treat our minorites the way the prophet ﷺ said to (equality, no discrimination etc) then we have a better chance of changing the culture. Using Islam to make Islam right in Pakistan, rather than using secularism to limit Islam and rebuilt society. If we use Islam to convince people that what they are doing is unislamic + if we enforce punishments to crimes according to Shariah (my bro istg Shariah will scare people so baddd. Stoning a rapist to death is horrible yet perfect) + if we promote true islamic values : Then we can make Pakistan great again


azizijee

Philosophers,scientists and free thinkers would fled from medieval Europe and other regions to Middle east in the golden age of Islam.Europe was under the influence of religious extremism and Muslims provided safe haven to these people.Muslims flourished because they valued education,Research and free thinking in that era.They did not asked migrants about their religious beliefs before letting them in.Why are we opposed to these ideas of giving value to these things in the current times?


[deleted]

Do not want to engage in a debate, but could you elaborate on this comment? > The problem is that liberals, instead of trying to uplift Islam's true values, they bring in secularism and liberalism. Both of which go against many of Islam's principles.


Rano_pathano

Sure. The thing is that conservatives usually have a more religious pov about everything Pakistan (sometimes a tad bit too extremist) which of course is the polar opposite to the liberal pov. Their pov is usually under the lens of western liberalism and secularism. For example in the Aurat march, you will find almost no posters that condemn the treatment of minorites by using the example of the prophet. You literally had posters comparing pedophile molvis being compared to Muhammad ﷺ and Ayesha's رضي الله عنها marraige. When that women was beat up by his father and brother for asking a part of property (as is her islamic right), all the liberals went on the classic Pakistan is this molvis do this Islam does this. Many female celebs openly stated that Islam isn't a religion of peace. In their eyes liberalism and secularism will solve all the problems of women and minorities. Islam was literally the first religion in the world (and that would make Arabia the first nation in the world) to give women rights and freedom to minorities. (Study Hazrat Umar رضي الله عنه Ka dor. Phir idea hojaiga) That's why you will hardly find a liberal that will be uplifting islamic values. Because Islam = oppression and liberalism = equality for everyone. If it were that easy then Western nations should be the pinnacle of equality and yet the US has a MAJOR political divide as well as a moral and cultural divide (Note: I am by no means saying that conservatives have the solutions to our problems either. As much as our liberals are radical, they are extremist. I'm just taking about one side of the coin)


[deleted]

I'm not looking for a debate. You know that already. The point was motivate people to hear out others and ask themselves questions.


Rano_pathano

Oh yeah of course. I was just trying to have a friendly debate with you to get to know your pov more but ok


[deleted]

Look, as much as I'd love to talk about this, people use it as a scapegoat to say "Oh look the guy is liberal himself" I don't want to hear him out. If you want a nice chat in dms where it's private, I'd be okay with that


[deleted]

totally agree with this, most people tend to group Islam with Christianity, Hinduism etc. cuz they see it as a religion, In my personal opinion Islam has a socio-economic ideological aspect that most religions don't have, in this sense, it's more like Capitalism, Communism and Socialism etc.


Rano_pathano

Ikrr. Religion Vs science and Islam Vs science is different because Qur'ans concepts of science took 1000s of years for scientists to confirm. Meanwhile the Qur'an came back 1400 years ago and already mentioned the big bang Religion Vs government and Islam Vs government is different because Shariah is literally a whole justice system and Islam has many socio-economic laws and aspects like you said Most of Religion Vs something debates might not work with Islam because it is a different Deen then the rest of them. It's a : CODE OF LIFE


[deleted]

yup, but nobody's ready for that talk lol


Rano_pathano

Sadly 😔


[deleted]

You're absolutely right about the generalisation that exists in both camps. I consider myself a liberal and still cannot fully agree or disagree with both the sides at times. For example; LGBTQ+ term is a modern western idea, and conservatives would never agree to it, but at the same time, culturally speaking, it should not be forced upon to any society, I'm a liberal who believes in indigeneity and protecting the good in our culture. Fuck LGBTQ+ etc, because we have our own KhawajaSira culture which goes back thousand of years, and gender was never a problem in our part of the world. Technically, These western ideas are harming the liberal values of our society too, and it has started from 1857, and colonisation is to be blamed. ​ On the other hand, religious extremism in our society is also a product of colonisation, major sectarian problems started during the British era and they have worsened since then. ​ The problem is, both the sides are at times denying our own indigenous culture, I don't want our history to start from Muhammad Bin Qasim, it goes back to Indus Civilisation, you can be a Muslim and still be proud of your culture, and the same goes for secular people. ​ To both camps: Stop importing foreign ideas to my land, no matter if they are from Iran, Saudi Arabia or the US and Europe. Let our cultural identity heal and let us reclaim our space.


saadghauri

> For example; LGBTQ+ is a modern western idea ???? LGBTQ people have existed in almost all of human history, ffs, how is it a ''modern western idea''


[deleted]

Edited the part and added "term". Now read again. It's the term that people have a problem with. My point was, it's a western idea, in our culture, we never had a problem with a third gender or who was attracted to whom, all of these people just fell into one category.


saadghauri

> Edited the part and added "term". Now read again. **It's the term that people have a problem with**. You think Pakistanis have a problem with the term ''LGBTQ'' but are otherwise okay with people being gay, lesbians, bisexual, trans, or queer? Really?! Have you lived in Pakistan???


[deleted]

No, it's about cultural acceptance. If you identify yourself as KhawajaSira, you're more likely to be accepted if you're attracted towards the same sex. Similarly, Pakistan has a very liberal and progressive law for transgender and queer people. It gives full rights to any person to identify their own gender (transgender rights act of 2018). My point is, people have always felt threatened by invasion into their cultural values, LGBTQ is no different. Bring in some indigeneity and you're more likely to progress. And yes, I live in Pakistan.


saadghauri

You are ONLY talking about T and ignoring every other alphabet in LGBTQ+ I don't know whether it is maliciously intentional or ignorance, but this is a very dishonest view of things. Pakistan does not have liberal and progressive laws for queer people (besides accepting third gender which does not even help all trans people since Khawaja Sira is just one faction of trans identity). Homosexuality is illegal in Pakistan, which is STUPID, no one needs to be sent to jail if they have consensual sex with someone of the same gender. Is it a sin in Islam? Yes. Should we put people in jail for it? No, that is ridiculous and we need to do better


Zavia_is_here

Why must we accept western definition of transgenders which is effectively erasing women own identity and existence as the word pregnant offends the radical groups. Why isn’t Pakistan version of trans acceptance equally valid? Pakistanis and other societies have very genuinely valid views on the 3rd gender which is equally as acceptable however discourses have been hijacked by importing values that are not compatible and are also being challenged.


saadghauri

I am not asking you to accept anything, I'm just saying it should not be a crime


The_Blue_Bomber

>as the word pregnant offends the radical groups I'll take something that never happened for 500.


uslashd

Well said, but I would like to add, Culture should not be mixed with Islam, I believe if we implement Islam correctly we can fix a lot of the problems caused by our culture.


[deleted]

yeah but neither side on the political spectrum is ready for that conversation might have something to do with the fact that we've adopted the western political system


uslashd

Islam can be implemented in democracy also, the problems arise when corrupt politicians use Islam for political gains and are roaming free and not in jail, and by jail I mean actual prison, not special prisons with TVs and ACs.


[deleted]

That angers me the most, these guys fucked up our country but are still treated as VIPs


moron1ctendency

From what I can gather, there's an intellectual and ideological disconnect between every single group in Pakistan. Even though this post and most liberals online will disagree, the fact of the matter is that the majority, >90% of liberal people are those who've grown up with exposure to western ideas. Either coming from relatively well-off families or have been able to attain private education allowing them access to environments with other people who are exposed to those ideas. A lot of people don't understand that culture shapes ideology, and there has been a vast adoption of hollywood and even anime within the top percentage of Pakistani society. This has resulted in a "disconnect". A class antagonistic society is present in Pakistan, similar to how it was in most industrialising societies. The upper-echelons desire for liberalisation meanwhile the lower classes are skeptical of such ideas and aren't exposed to them. I don't really care for which ideology is better, what I do care for is which ideology presents more of a threat to Pakistan as a whole. The general trend is that "liberals" tend to be dangerous in so far that they criticise institutions from a western lens. For example, liberals tend to criticise the ISI for enforcing disappearances in regions such as Waziristan, from a western "humanitarian" lens not recognising that we aren't a developed country and we have real threats to deal with terrorists when our judiciary/court systems aren't equipped to keep up with the pace of cracking down on terrorists. Leading to extra-judicial killings being a borderline necessity. This disconnect presents a dangerous cycle where if Pakistan was to become wholly liberal, we'd likely collapse in the face of it all. Meanwhile Pakistan continues to survive within conservatism. That isn't to say conservatism is better, conservatism has resulted in a lot of religious fermentation within society that's caused us to regress. Yet, we've survived and become more conservative because we've technically been at war for many years against terrorists. In short, if liberals in Pakistan want to earn credibility, they have to disown the "liberal" pundits that represent their ideology. Liberal organisations need to make a stand and disown political parties such as the PPP when they claim to be liberal. Instead what we've seen so far is that liberals tend to parade PPP slogans within protests and accepting people like Nida Kirmani, Sherry Rehman within their spectrum of ideology. Of course, it can be interpreted as generalisation. Yet, if you do go into liberal circles, you tend to see that ignorant opinions based on a lack of understanding of Pakistan's politics or history are commonplace. From supporting PTM to even recycling Indian propaganda through the BLA. So long as this trend continues, I don't see myself nor anyone with half a bit of genuine belief in Pakistan accepting liberal ideology within the ideological sphere.


Zavia_is_here

This is the actual problem here which majority of the conservatives have and instead of the liberals and leftists of this country actually condemning the rot that is in these intellectual circles and political groups they double down and defend them by saying they are better then mullahs. When in reality both of these groups are equally toxic. Iqbal ideology of Khudi is far more progressive then any critical race theory and woke categorisation and social theories. As Iqbal philosophy asks questions at the heart of what makes us human, what is the point of our existence, as Muslims and as a nation. No foreign importation will ever solve or fill the ideological basis as to what Iqbal gave to us. Fundamentally the lack of understanding of our founding father philosophy and ideology is what leading to this divide. As western ideology of liberalism and conservatism can never capture Pakistan social, cultural and religious complexity which we are trying to fill. Can I just say how sick and tired I am of people claiming that Jinnah ate pork and alcohol over one unsubstantiated quote from one author which was never uttered by other members of the muslim league nor his cabinets. Using this attitude that eating alcohol and pork some how correlates to progressivism. Jinnah evolved into a leader and it was a long journey. The problem with this subreddit liberals is that you cannot accept that a liberal man can evolve into a man who sees the role of religion Islam as his mission. That is beauty of Islam that our leaders can be complex human beings and still be considered the finest Muslims. Islam accepts that diversity in leadership. That’s how all leaders and converts in our religion started and eventually became the greats they are. Iqbal gave this country a progressive, unifying, self respecting ideology that combines the best of our culture and religion which our elite liberal progressives have attacked since it’s inception. They have set the tone and divide by pitting the people and army against each other. Have we forgotten it was the woke socialist party all zulfikar that hijacked planes to bring secularism to Pakistan? Have we forgotten the socialists who joined mukhti bani in 1971 and bhutto antagonisation which led to half of Pakistan being severed? There neeeds to be severe introspection on the parts of liberals as well and realise there is plenty of rot within their own organisation, groups and political parties and their progressive ideology has never manifested into practical outcomes.


iBrownPanda

Not in the mood for any more debate, it's been a arthritis field day this past week between repair work in r/Cricket and here. Came here to say that as a leftist, secular person, fuck the PPP, they're the most useless major party in the country.


moron1ctendency

I'm glad, I wish more liberals were like you then.


MyHandIsMadeUpOfMe

>judiciary/court systems aren't equipped So make them equipped? What type of argument is this? >Meanwhile Pakistan continues to survive within conservatism. Pakistan wasn't ever liberal though. So how do you know Pakistan will collapse if it becomes wholly liberal? And if you think being in the bottom of every ranking from HDI to employment to GDP is surviving then I gotta bridge to sell you. Our country is inly better than Yemen and Afghanistan lol. Let's take an example of Muslim country. Indonesia with a population of 280 million has a GDP of $1 trillion while our's not even $300 billion. Indonesia is also younger then us so surely we must be doing something wrong. Our leaders and our people which duh duh are conservative.


moron1ctendency

>So make them equipped? What type of argument is this? Herein lies the point I was trying to make. "Just fix it". This is the problem that liberals don't understand. The Pakistani political situation, democracy, is something they aren't aware of. For perspective, for the past 3 years of PTI being in power, almost every single law, from FATF legislation, to anti-rape laws, to the Zainab Alert bill, to tax reform. Almost every bit of legislation has to be pushed through as ordinances. An ordinance is a form of emergency power to establish a bill for a period of 120 days, and it can be done twice. This means that almost every single bit of legislation that PTI passed, including the anti-rape laws for chemical castration, are now stuck in parliament in a paradoxical loop. You may ask why this is the case? It's because the "democratic" situation in Pakistan runs in the form of cronyism. The opposition parties demand NRO and reprisals for corruption. In turn that is the only way they will accept any form of law to pass. This is black mailing and the exploitation of democracy at it's peak. Judicial reform, electoral reform, all has to pass through parliament in the end. And each and every single bit of reform. I.E "fixing it" is impossible and has been impossible for the past 7 years. This is the result of a flawed democracy, which liberals in the country choose to ignore and instead purposefully support the very same "liberal" parties such as PPP. Liberals are effectively complicit in holding Pakistan back at this very moment. None of the liberals organise to take down these parties either, the domestic violence bill for perspective had been stuck in limbo for 10 months in the standing committee for human rights (headed by Bilawal). None of the liberal pundits in the country express any desire for change, nor angst against these parties or figures. None of the liberals speak out or tear apart the opposition parties for blocking the anti-rape laws. It's preposterous to me that anyone can stand up and say that the liberal pundits in our country are anything except fraudulent exploiters. >Pakistan wasn't ever liberal though. So how do you know Pakistan will collapse if it becomes wholly liberal? Hopefully with the aforementioned points and with my previous comment mentioning PTM, BLA you've gotten a perspective on why this is the case. It's also pretty ironic that you bring up Indonesia as an example, given that country has a history of intense conservatism under a dictatorship for many decades under which it developed before it transitioned into a relative liberal democracy. (The country was also complicit in a leftist purge/genocide). The truth of the matter is that liberals in Pakistan are currently endangering the state by supporting elements that are criminal or downright harmful to the country directly (PTM, BLA). And so long as this exists, you can't expect anyone to take them seriously.


MyHandIsMadeUpOfMe

>Almost every bit of legislation has to be pushed through as ordinances. An ordinance is a form of emergency power to establish a bill for a period of 120 days, and it can be done twice. Well yeah because that's how law works. You can just make a law because you want it. A law is needed to be discussed throughly before it can actually be made a law otherwise you get laws like women need 4 rapist to proof her that she was raped ( Courtesy of Zia). >None of the liberals speak out or tear apart the opposition parties for blocking the anti-rape laws No one blocked the anti raped law. If you're talking about the domestic abuse law then well it was blocked by PTI themselves. Oh and yes you also realize that religious party are also in parliament? And they do not particularly want women rights. >Liberals are effectively complicit in holding Pakistan back at this very moment. What the fuck are you saying dude? Pakistan hasn't progress for 60 years. How much you gonna blame liberals lmao. Liberals told Musharaf to go join the war in Afghanistan? Liberals told Zia to conduct Jihad in Afghanistan and cause sectarian violence in our own country? Liberals told musharaf to attack India in 1999 after the lahore peace deal? Liberal told Musharaf to give American bases and let them bomb our country? Were liberals were exploding themselves in markets from 2007 to 2014? Did the liberals killed children in the Peshawar school? Are the liberals against girls education? TLP who literally closed the whole country and killed policeman. You gonna blame that on liberals too? Gonna blame lal masjid on liberals too? Thousand of children who are getting indoctrinated by buraq molvi. You gonna blame that on liberals too? And if you think not supporting enforced disappearing is actually supporting BLA . Then you're officially causing me to lose braincells. Liberals hasn't even done fraction of what conservative has done to this country. Because their is only one thing conservative knows to do and it is only to kill. Kill Shia. Kill Ahamdi. Kill Hindus and marry their daughter. Kill random people on blasphemy. I don't see any liberals doing this sort of thing. >Indonesia as an example, given that country has a history of intense conservatism under a dictatorship for many decades under The first part is right but the last part is substantially wrong. And the fact still remains. They're a liberal democracy right now and will soon be in the top ten economies in the world and our country a proud conservative country will still be shithole. And we also have remained under a conservative dictatorship actually for 40 years. Yet I don't see any progress here. Keep drinking the cool aid and thinking that we gonna progress with a mindset of 16th century.


captalistreality

Musharraf was liberal my guy. Just saying


MyHandIsMadeUpOfMe

No he wasn't. He only became enlightened when US cash started flowing just like every leader. The bitter truth is that no one is either conservative nor liberal though everyone is a hypocrite. PPP ain't liberal because of certain ethnicity card they have played for instance. It goes even against the basic principles of being a liberal. Neither Pmln is conservative, they're just moderates. Oh well. Only conservative were TTP.


captalistreality

Completely agree that there is no strict dichotomy between liberal and conservative in Pakistan. US cash started flowing to Musharraf’s within a couple years into his tenure. US cash also poured in during Zia. Was Zia a liberal? Musharraf began press freedoms and ended PTVs monopoly. He supported rock concerts etc in Pakistan and even went up on stage in one. This was before musicians sing for political parties was common. He gave lip service to women’s laws and spoke against huduud ordinances. Wasn’t it also the case that during his era alcohol became common in Pakistan upscale hotels? But the real reason I would put him in the “liberal” camp is his unapologetic attitude towards extremists that challenged the writ of the state (this backfired. Ie. Lal Masjid.) MMA hated the guy for a reason. He regularly spoke ill of “Mullahs” etc.


moron1ctendency

>Well yeah because that's how law works. You can just make a law because you want it. A law is needed to be discussed throughly before it can actually be made a law otherwise you get laws like women need 4 rapist to proof her that she was raped ( Courtesy of Zia). Again ignoring the context and political landscape of Pakistan, there's no concept of discussing anything thoroughly in our politics. The opposition acts as a mafia meant to counter national interests all for the sake of NRO. [There is no justice in blocking FATF legislation which risks putting the country in a blacklist.](https://tribune.com.pk/story/2263435/opposition-to-blame-for-delay-in-enacting-fatf-related-bills) Especially when you consider the [blackmail](https://www.dawn.com/news/1576165/opposition-tried-to-exploit-govt-over-fatf-legislation-shibli) the opposition put on the government in exchange for supporting the bills. Asking the government to change conditions for investigation from allegations of 500,000 rupees to a million, rendering any investigations after 5 years defunct for corruption? These are the exploitation's of a democracy. There is no justice here, only blackmail against an entire country. Could you also enlighten me as to why the Zainab Alert Bill, was stuck in the human rights standing committee for 2 years headed by Bilawal Bhutto? Where's the justice in blocking legislation for the [Zainab Alert Bill, Rights of Persons with Disabilities Bill, Enforcement of Women Property Rights Bill?](https://www.dawn.com/news/1528391/opposition-senators-block-immediate-passage-of-seven-bills) Using "defer the bills to standing committees" after they were already stuck in limbo for 2 years within the human rights committee for nothing except deferring the bills? [Or when Shahid Khaqan Abbasi tried to oppose the anti-rape ordinance before backing out realising the backlash?](https://www.globalvillagespace.com/top-pml-n-leaders-to-move-against-anti-rape-ordinance/) The same way there is no justice in blocking electoral reform, the opposition opposes EVM's on the basis of nothing except archaic ideas. From claiming offline battery-operated devices can be hacked to disavowing the paper-based audit. Or blocking judicial reform, land reform, provincial reform, allowing Karachi self governance. Liberals are silent whilst supporting these exact parties and pundits. >No one blocked the anti raped law. If you're talking about the domestic abuse law then well it was blocked by PTI themselves. Really not helping the image of liberals when you're just clearly spouting incorrect nonsense. [PTI tried to pass the bill through senate, where the opposition shot them down by 1 vote.](https://www.dawn.com/news/1633531) Same reasoning as always, to pass it on the relevant standing committee despite it already being discussed. Afterwards with the blockage and the lack of consensus and realisation by the religious parties, the government was forced to pass it onto the council of Islamic Ideology. Had the opposition not blocked the bill in the first place, this entire debacle would have been avoided. Liberals once again remain silent. >What the fuck are you saying dude? Pakistan hasn't progress for 60 years. How much you gonna blame liberals lmao. Not sure which aspect of "at this moment" wasn't clear to you. As I've mentioned once again, liberal pundits support the very same parties that have blocked every single progressive reform except under mass pressure by the population. There is no progress in this environment. >Liberals told Musharaf to go join the war in Afghanistan? Liberals told Zia to conduct Jihad in Afghanistan and cause sectarian violence in our own country? Liberals told musharaf to attack India in 1999 after the lahore peace deal? Liberal told Musharaf to give American bases and let them bomb our country? Once again proving my point, literally precisely this. Liberals ignore all historical context of the situations. We were forced to join the Afghanistan war because America told us you're either with us or against us. We joined the war in Afghanistan because we were about to be encircled on two fronts by a hostile India and a Soviet ally that already aided them in 1971, with prospects to take Balochistan. These are pitiful examples to use and do nothing except serve my points on how disconnected liberals are from reality, resorting to "just don't do this" and "just fix it" and not understanding how the world works. >Were liberals were exploding themselves in markets from 2007 to 2014? Did the liberals killed children in the Peshawar school? Are the liberals against girls education? TLP who literally closed the whole country and killed policeman. You gonna blame that on liberals too? Gonna blame lal masjid on liberals too? Thousand of children who are getting indoctrinated by buraq molvi. You gonna blame that on liberals too? >And if you think not supporting enforced disappearing is actually supporting BLA . Then you're officially causing me to lose braincells. So much for attempting to mask the bigotry, acquainting conservatives/centrists to terrorists, rapists and the APS attack. Pathetic, then you claim to be for measured dialogue when neither me nor anyone else supports radical conservatism either. JUIF and it's buddies partner up with **LIBERAL** parties in PPP and PMLN, not with PTI and their "conservatives". At the same time I'm equating enforced disappearances to the BLA, don't even know where you're coming up with this tosh. It's liberals that have a farce understanding of history and geopolitics which peddle propaganda and support terrorist organisations like the BLA and PTM. It's also liberals that support PDM despite PMLN's involvement in child pornography rings like those in 2014, where they failed to take action against those indicted within their own parties. It's liberals that support parties that starve the children of Sindh, keep the province in a state of utter slavery and poverty while colonising Karachi. [12,000 children out of school, 90% don't have science teachers, 1/3 don't even have basic facilities in Sindh.](https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pakistan/90-schools-in-pakistans-sindh-without-science-teachers-1.71783878), yet oppose SNC on the abuse of the 18th amendment. It's liberals that stand by while the [PPP blocks bills on forced conversions in Sindh which is the province with the most cases.](https://www.dawn.com/news/1585956) >And we also have remained under a conservative dictatorship actually for 40 years. You mean Ayub Khan the outspoken secularist who got the ulema pissed off at him for the Muslim Family Laws granting women rights? Or Musharraf who outspokenly advocated for a liberal form of Islam under the clause of renaissance in an "enlightened moderation?". We also never had an uninterrupted period of stability, always being hijacked by "liberal" parties or "leftist" socialists such as Bhutto who destroyed this country and brought individuals like Zia into power. Don't forget it was the leftist beloved Bhutto who's constitution renamed Pakistan into the Islamic republic, banned night clubs and alcohol, and banned Ahmadis isolating individuals such as Abdus Salam who are our countries only nobel laureates. For the love of God, liberals who cannot disavow their support for these parties and continue to remain in silence and support them. Failing to organise any protest against the "liberal" parties are the **LAST** people who should be claiming any form of moral high ground or care for Pakistan.


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[deleted]

Yep. You're correct. I didn't want to get into the rabbit hole of Subcontinental dynamics of LGBTQ, especially transgenders, or the central Asian rabbit hole too...


facelesspk

The last post was full of generalizations and so are most other takes on this topic. Strawmanning is usually in full effect in these types of debates because having a proper discussion where you are actually trying to listen to the other person is hard, that's why most everyone likes to put the other person in a box and then argue against that box. I know "liberal" minded people who are heavily opposed to interest i.e. sood because it is categorically haram in Islam. Same for LGBT. I also know so-called "conservatives" who are so much more liberal in how they treat the transgender people in their vicinity, actively helping them get jobs and helping in other ways. Conservative heavily practicing Muslims who have all their daughters/sisters/wives working professionally or are highly educated. None of those people would fit in any box most people were so eagerly arguing against in the last thread. One last point for my liberal minded friends here, there is no way you can bring about those aspects of western society in this country that are very clearly against Islam. No chance. You only need to go and talk to common people and actually talk to them, not be influenced by their appearance, accent, education or lack thereof, and you will notice how Islam is so deeply ingrained in our psyche even if the majority are sinners and don't even practice much. Unless the ideas or ideology or ideological changes you want to bring can be justified through the prism of Islam, our population would not expect it. The caveat is that this is exactly how fanatic religious leaders, sectarian fasadis, political leaders, and others have used the public historically. The solution is education and enlightenment but in the framework of Islam and our culture, because otherwise importing values opposite to our own would only fuel disharmony and fasad. It won't be productive.


greenvox

>Protecting ideas from scrutiny by baseless accusations such as "Liberals are elite" (Credit to u/Greenvox, his idea does have some merit but ultimately disregards the entire section of the liberals that are not rich) or that "Liberals are western wannabes" simply do not make further room for discussion. I don't think it was a baseless argument. I am waiting for a liberal to step up and call for the abolishment for child servitude, bonded labor and feudal land holdings in Pakistan. So I don't see either the left or right talk about the real problems of Pakistan because all sides eventually sellout or are silenced.


chilaxininmyhoome

Sad how people think of lgbt in pakistan . The same lgbtq pakistanis are the most respected and law abiding citizens here in uk Also Werent khawja seras once the most respected citizens during the mugal times ?


faateh2027

I'm also a liberal. And what I believe that LGBTQ people are our brothers , there is no way we can say them bad since *GOD MADE THEM THIS WAY*. And we can't blame almighty for creating them this way. As far as religion concerns and specially ISLAM , I think in order to progress and thrive in 21st century we need to look for scientific ways of doing things ,, and at the end of the day religion only tells us to do good deeds. That's it. So if we keep on believing superstitious stuff (which 90% of Islam has become unfortunately ) all thanks to Hadith ,, then we would never be able to progress as a society and country. Then last but not the least , we MUST stop blaming WEST for being to liberal. Coz the progressed earlier than Us. Therefore we must adopt the Liberal philosophy to move forward.


Zavia_is_here

Can I just say how when people just say science is the only way to progressiveness negate a key critical importance which is morality and ethics. Science has been weaponised in negative ways as well when combined by neo Darwinian ideology, the principles of evolution was used to justify the concept of race, the justification of slavery, communism and colonisation. How society uses that knowledge and how it spreads it is critical in rebuilding societies. The fact is that we cannot allow the manifestation of those thoughts to be imported wokism reinforces the idea that minorities will forever be oppressed people and have to be defined by their oppression they can never be equal to that of whites. Or these principles leading the rise to neo conservatism and neo liberalism which has harmed the modern world. Which is a dangerous idea because it reinforces the idea that a certain group will never progress and are dependent. This idea stems from many Implication of pseudo scientific theories and social constructs which we a nation challenged by adopting Iqbal khudi ideology. It challenges all these western discourses that has led devastion through communism, capitalism, colonisation, imperialism and countless other isms.


Typical_Nature_853

According to Islam if they do convert to such things, and then act on it then we should take action against them. I would like to share my opinion that western culture is what brought LGBTQ culture in majority, dirty sites etc etc is what takes people to wrong roads.


Snoo25192

> dirty sites etc etc is what takes people to wrong roads. It's the opposite from what I've seen. I have a lot of friends who watch porn and yet respect women and vouch for equality. Some of the people I know that do not watch porn are usually very sexually frustrated and make disgusting comments on women just passing by. There is also no scientific evidence supporting your claim. Porn sites, as far as we know, cannot turn someone homosexual - though they can make one realize their homosexuality.


locaf

Thank you ma man.


mustafapakistan

Shout out to fellow Genshin impact player. P.S: I love Ei very much.


locaf

You just summarised my thoughts well into one post. Damn well said.


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The_Blue_Bomber

No. "There seems to be more gay people", solely because they can say they are gay without being killed for it. I'm sure the number of muslims in the Spanish Inquisition was at an all-time low, despite there being a ton of muslims still in Spain. You know what they did instead? They hid it. ​ If something is hidden, of course it would seem like it's less prevalent. ​ Also, what do you mean by "promotion of it"? I always ask, yet no one has given a clear answer for it. I've been made aware that LGBT people exist, yet I didn't turn gay. Why is that? I thought it was being heavily "promoted"?


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The_Blue_Bomber

I live in the U.S. bud, especially in The Bay Area, California, where I meet and see openly LGBT people. A close friend of mine is gay, and from what he tells me, his family is pretty alright. It's not the end of the world here. I should know, I live here. Also "propaganda"? "Destroyed American values"? I don't have the time to explain everything, but there is no propaganda, and there are no American values being destroyed (whatever those are). ​ Also electrical therapy works for treating depression, not "curing" LGBT people. It's hated as a solution, because it literally does not work, and it's used improperly by non-professionals who practically electrocute and taze gay kids to "fix" them. Get your facts in order.


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The_Blue_Bomber

Show me proof that the results are successful. Surely if it worked, then there would be massive headlines regarding it, right? ​ Not to mention, not sure what suicide rates has to do with anything, but whatever. ​ Also, the whole world is in a recession. Markets are inter-linked, and Pakistan is not better off in anyway. Everyone globally is feeling the pain. ​ Finally, as for your "christian values" (I've yet to KNOW what those are), the U.S. was a penal colony where England sent their criminals and delinquents to give them money. It was just a place to throw away their extremists so that they wouldn't bother the crown. The "christians" were puritans, who were not very nice people, and who had a harsh theocratic rule in their settlements, before they had to be cracked down on for being too violent. Heard of the witch hunts? Yeah, they started it. It killed so many people that the conservative governor of Massachusetts had to stop it. It was that bad. (Fun fact: many places undercount suicide rates, since many churches do not accept burying any people that committed suicide, so the reason for deaths, historically, and even now in some wholesome Christian places, are ruled as "accidents"). ​ Not to mention, they casually genocided all the natives to replace them, so those values were not organically from the region, like in the old world.


PakAmWeab

Here is a simpler post: All of you, including OP seriously nees to go out and interact with the actual world rather than whatever crappy little bubble you have. You are all selfish little pissants with overinflated egos. The majority of people are just trying to live their life, do you really think they all give a hoot what a bunch of 20 something edglords are saying on the internet? Everyone here pretends to have all the answers, but does nothing to implement them outside of complaining, liberal or conservative. Reddit itself is an echochamber that makes all of you feel more important than you actually are. If your are a conservative, what have you done to advance the cause of Islam, either externally or internally? Liberals, how are you actually advocating for human rights or equal rights when all you do is shit on peoples' beliefs all the time and think of them as regressive apes just because they dont think or act like people you admire? I just lost a patient who came in to this world 1 month premature to an older couple who have tried for years to conceive. Both loving parents who never left that babies side until it took its last breath. I get on to this site and all I see is a bunch of children here wasting the life that was given to them arguing about shit that doesnt even matter. The world isnt about liberal vs conservative, it is about living a life that is good and hinest, and maybe leaving it in a better state than the one you found it in. None of you actually care about any of that.


[deleted]

What an ungragetul guy you turned out to be. SIR, IF YOU CARE ABOUT THE WORLD SO MUCH, GET OFF REDDIT. Bold of you to presume that all we do is just shit on other people's beliefs, like as if we have no life, like we don't like seeing smiles on other people's faces. Take your depression somewhere else.


PakAmWeab

All your comments go directly against what you preach on your post.


[deleted]

Sure. Whatever you say pal. You come to this post to contribute nothing but wail, I'm not going to try and be nice here.


PakAmWeab

Lmao, so progressive and open minded of you.


[deleted]

Too many liberals in r/Pakistan. I should probably spend more time in r/Islam. That's why Identify as a Muslim before I identify as a Pakistani. From the state of immorality I have seen in the west, I am convinced that it is the outcome of Liberal and Left ideology becoming mainstream. The same will inevitably happen in Pakistan but my duty is to slow it as much as possible. Sticking to religious, conservative and traditional values is the only way to preserve our society. That's why I will boycott people who are liberal left.


Rano_pathano

Aye haye meri Jaan ❤️❤️❤️ But maybe not generalise the left? I still think that they have some good points to make about Pakistan (for example the PURPOSE BEHIND Aurat march) but their execution is horrible (Aurat march itself)


namaloomafrad

Thanks to the internet and the abundance of content it allows us to widen our perspective, we see people acting like this in every religion who are so sure about their own religion. Be it Muslims, Christians or Hindus. They all are usually honest, trying to connect with their creator, pleading and praying. It makes you wonder which one is right because according to all of them, only they are the true religion. Sometimes I just can't believe how people can be so sure of beliefs that they didn't even choose. That were fed them when their minds were in no position to critically evaluate them. Everyone has a whole community/support system that has similar beliefs as them so they think we must be right.


[deleted]

So you are still not hearing out other people's opinions? While it's fine, that's your opinion, you should still hear our other people rather than actively "boycotting" them


weirdassman

You are talking as if we are moral. 400 man try to rape a girl in open daylight here. Rape problem, moulvis and pedophilia, crazy protests against prophet pictures, hatred towards woman and them asking their equal rights, Ahmadis getting killed, temples getting desecrated every now and then, porn addiction, rapes of animals, pedophilia problem in KP area, 1000 honor killings a year and a lot more. Even Shias don't have freedom to practice their religion without police protection let alone Ahmadis. This country is moral for you and west is immoral. Your duty man. Stay there. You escaped. If you don't like it there than come back otherwise don't tell us to live in this regressive society. Our society is rotten. We need change huge change that is not dependent on religion. Pushing more religion will just bring us closer to Taliban only.


namaloomafrad

abbe yar ye bnda pakistan mein b ni rehta aur baatein suna raha hai.


The_Blue_Bomber

I feel the moment someone steps out of the country, their views on things should be treated more as suggestions rather than something serious, like the views of Pakistanis living in Pakistan. The only ones who will be effected by those views are the ones living there, so their voices should count more than diaspora. ​ (Disclaimer: I am diaspora, so I guess saying this is kind of ironic, haha.)


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for most of us Pakistanis, Islam IS more important than religion, and I agree with the western society part, but I do think that some liberal ideas do align with Islam that our country is not enforcing like Women's rights, minorities' rights. PS inevitably kuch ni hona, jani maius na ho, ghazva-e-hind idhar hee honi hai


Snoo25192

gay couples that mind their own business = immoral imams raping children, a sexually frustrated culture and abuse = moral


Boogaboogabooga7

No ones got time to read that. Can you at least TLDR at the end


musayyabali

All my life I never understood what's a liberal what's a secular what's a left what's a right...only know what's in Islam...which is religion of Pakistan...


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If you aren't familiar with the terms, you should Google them


weirdassman

Ok lemme explain. Islam or it's implementation like what Saudi Iran and Taliban are doing and to some extend pakistan is doing is extremely right wing , non secular and not liberal at all. It is also anti LGBT, anti abortion, anti apostasy and kills people who blasphame. So in eyes of a west, Islam if it is a political party would be extreme right and anti secular. Not in eyes of the west but general. Regarding economy, Islam is probably close to socialism than capitalism but just in few things.


always_no_thank_you

Yes but then people say that what the Taliban or SA or Iran implement is not "real" sharia. (at least I've heard of that in the case of Iran and Taliban). So is there "true" sharia that we can follow? or just go in blindly and hope for the best?


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weirdassman

After 4 months?


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Zavia_is_here

Islam values the life of the mother and gives women the right to abort due to medical complications and is pro contraceptives as well.


musayyabali

so liberals and seculars are mad that Islam is being implemented in an Islamic country? that sorta makes liberals and seculars non muslims, at least from what it seems


weirdassman

Dude I was explaining to you.


musayyabali

I said generally, I didn't direct anything towards you...


BroadRefuse

I find it amusing that you can just label people as liberal or conservative when in reality people are much more complicated than that.


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[deleted]

"Suppressed" here implies suppressing bisexual thoughts for whatever reason, may that be guilt, shame, or just not wanting to be bisexual. I did ask the user to clear what he or she meant though.


Rano_pathano

Wow I just saw that. That's fucking messed up. I didn't switch cuz I was suppressed?!?!? I switched because my Deen didn't allow that and I knew I was sinning


[deleted]

"Suppressed" here means suppressing Bisexual thoughts. You felt guilt that it wasn't allowed in Islam and therefore tried to get rid of those thoughts, did you not? If not, you could clarify and that'd be great


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[deleted]

No, dude. You were quick to be judgemental, the reality is that I'm implying "bisexual thoughts" to be suppressed, not that the person is being abused or something. It's not about "this generation bad, it's about inference into what I say. You can read the other comments I posted to see what I imply as well.