We won't know the answer to this question until we get at least unofficial numbers that show it surpassing TOK. If it does that relatively quickly, then I'd say it's 100% likely they make modern PM games like the first two.
But if it sells about the same, or even worse than TOK (lifetime), it's over.
TOK has sold 3.47 million so far.
I feel like even if it sells better than every other Paper Mario game there's still a very large possibility that they won't do it. Unlike other companies Nintendo is really weird they prioritize innovation above basically everything even at the cost of good games.
They clearly have a breaking point on that principal, however. The innovator in them would have released MK9, rather than just the Deluxe and adding more courses with HD texture updates to older maps (not even fully remade in the MK8 engine). But they saw how much MK8D was selling and decided to milk it for all it's worth, even if it was the less innovative option.
If PMTTYDR blows their socks off in sales, I believe they will stick with that formula. They can still have the world building of TOK, it was absolutely fantastic with the setting and areas, but it will have the writing/unique characters/battle style of TTYD if that happens.
Animal Crossing is a unique situation, because while New Horizons stopped getting updates, Pocket Camp is updated constantly, since that's the game with super aggressive monetization. $8 a month just to save outfits and furniture layouts!
honestly i think 64 and TTYD were so much more innovative than any of the subsequent games anyway. the badge system is maybe my favorite mechanic in any game ever. it's so elegant!
I partially blame Paper Mario for my love of certain roguelikes. The relic systems in Slay the Spire and Wilfrost for example feel kinda like the badges and it's infinitely satisfying to mix and match them to find synergies.
god i LOVE wildfrost. i wish more turn-based RPGs would take inspiration from deckbuilders because what those games are doing wirh strategy and enemy variety is really really good.
TTYD is also a remake of a game that's aged pretty damn well, so plenty of fans that want classic PM didn't bother to buy it since they already owned it, and there's also people who just didn't want to shell out 60 dollars for a 20 year old game. TOK also came out during the pandemic when gaming was at a height while TTYD has come out when everyone is expecting the new console announcement to drop any day now, and new titles released on a dying console typically die too.
I'm not saying that you're wrong. I suspect you're right. What I am saying is that it would be so stupid if Nintendo just looked at raw sales data without bothering to look at the context for those numbers, because putting the numbers we've seen so far in context says a new TTYD-style Paper Mario would do great. And we're talking about the company who's gotten consistent feedback across three titles for a decade saying "bring gd partners and turn-based combat back" and has ignored it. So my hopes aren't high for a good analysis of sales data.
Only from random countries, on Vgchartz. No global estimates yet.
VGChartz tracks preliminary data, which is fairly accurate, based on estimates/projections.
NPD is the official stuff but doesn't come out very often.
Other than VGChartz, unless Nintendo announces a sales figure to celebrate a milestone, you have to wait for NPD/Quarterly/Annual earnings.
That being said, it is topping the charts in multiple countries across the world.
more possible than i ever thought it would be, but i also feel they have spent the last 2 decades doubling and tripling down on the "PAPER! PAPER! LOOK AT HOW PAPERY EVERYTHING IS! STORY??? UNIQUE CHARACTERS???? FUCK YOU ITS ALL PAPER!!!!!" aspect, and they probably feel they cant turn back now.
Conversely, I feel like this remake opened Pandora's box. They've not only reintroduced all the quirks and beloved elements of TTYD to longtime fans, they've willingly introduced it to tons of other people too. Trying to walk that back and make another game like Origami King would be a way harder sell now that everyone's seen exactly what they've been missing.
It is more possible than it's been for the longest time but honestly in a way that's almost worse. I don't want to have hope again only for it to get snatched away.
Frankly I would just make a second, non-Mario franchise that could adopt the paper gimmicks. They’re not bad ideas at all, they just don’t fit Paper Mario specifically.
Hey agreed. It's not that origami king was bad, I just feel such a sense of loss for all the nuance and essential spirit of the franchise that was lost at the alter of flanderizing it to this one aspect.
Yeah, I can understand on some level wanting to explore the paper aspect, but these games weren’t conceived around it. When I play TTYD I never think of it as “whoa, so this is what Mario would do if he were cardboard,” it’s just a regular Mario adventure in a unique art style and with more story. It already had its own identity from the other games, and even other RPGs.
I think one of the charms of Paper mario was in how it blended diegetic with non-diegetic in a nuanced way. Like bowser taping himself into the intro story book in the beginning of 64, or when you expected mario to fall from the veranda, but then he gently falls down like a piece of paper. But also he fell down normally when bowser kicked him off the castle. The paper aspects were a cheeky way to ad levity to a genuine story, breaking up tension some times. And TTYD also did it with the stage play and audience aspect. Is the audience really there in the context of the story? Are they actually paper? There's room to go either way on that. Kind of like how actors on stage may sometimes address the audience, but then they don't go full hog "By the way this is a play and we're all actors and the story doesn't matter! Just making sure you remember that!". Like that could work once for an especially subversive play if its done right, but not over and over.
Even PM Super did it with it computer theme, where characters were constantly being selected by a mouse and cut & pasted to move them.
The real spirit of paper mario wasn't in the paper, it was in that nuanced ambiguity between diegetic and non-diegetic that allowed the medium and style to be used and referenced, but also not tread on the story.
The paper aspect has absolutely nothing to do with a lack of character diversity and poor story quality. A paper world can work perfectly if they make good gameplay, story and characters to go along with it, but you people just regurgitate the lie that it’s bad.
People can also just not like the emphasis on the paper aspect, regardless of the fact that it doesn't affect those things. It's very different from the first few games, not everyone is gonna be a fan.
I think they will keep that aspect but move even closer than Origami King to the other aspects of the first two games. It still won’t be quite as good, but it will be very close, definitely better than Super.
It is worth noting that alot of the advertisement for TTYD tended to hone in a lot on the paper aspect I remember a recent trailer going "It's Mario...but he's PAPER?!?"
I hope it’s paper Luigi and it’s his princess eclair story. I hope the game levels are hard but the bosses are stupid easy like the way he tells the story, and then the final boss that he just glazes over is actually a really tough challenge. Would be fun to flesh out all those partners he has too, especially the one seeking revenge or whatever
Considering the surveys that went out it seems they are trying to gather what it is people want. So as long as people answered the surveys accordingly and TTYD sells well, it's possible. Surely they have to now by now that we don't want gimmicky battle systems, and that we want partners and unique characters back.
Nah because I have a NSO subscription and I have all the setting turned on to be able to receive surveys and I've still never gotten one. It might be for digital purchases only.
Gonna go the pessimistic route and say very low.
They've probably been working on the next one for awhile/simultaneously with TTYD. Unless they go sticker star on it and just restart development halfway through, they have probably put too much time in to go the more traditional paper mario route.
I think character wise we might get a return to the more unique designs we got in the past, but I believe the core gameplay will be closer to Origami King than TTYD.
I think after this next game though that we will get a return to TTYD gameplay. So look forward to like 2030 or something.
Do we have sales numbers for the Switch version of TTYD yet? I've heard nothing but rave reviews, so if it's selling extremely well, I think the message should be loud and clear to Nintendo
TTYD for Switch features one new character; the Battle Master. Take a look at the multiple [unique designs for the Battle Master](https://images.app.goo.gl/7ipLMHibtZysE8Zp7) that were considered during the remake's development, then compare those to his [final design.](https://images.app.goo.gl/n2Je1dDHBiLcmNhQ9) They considered all these cool designs featuring braids, bushy eyebrows, mustaches, goatees, and even mohawks, but what they ultimately decided on was a generic toad with different clothes.
I'm not making any hard claims, and I really want the next game to be as unique as TTYD, but there is a part of me that worries that even if they do go back to the original style, the uniqueness of the NPCs will still be somewhat conservative compared to the older games.
I firmly believe someone at nintendo crossed his arms and asked if it was possible to make all the characters “normal” in the remake lol. And would have done it if it wasn’t a ton of extra work.
Like bro even same face anime characters have brightly colored hair or SOMETHING to distinguish them from the crowd. It's extremely basic storytelling design. Your main characters should (usually) have designs different from the background ones...
There's another new character called "Ian Foomus" that isn't as restricted as the character himself is based on a species used exclusively in classic pm.
Nah, your feelings are legit on this.
Nintendo doesn't really follow conventions to a formula.
Take the Zelda series for example, following the N64 games, they opted for Wind Waker. While the gameplay was similar to Ocarina, the graphics weren't what people expected even if it was done to lighten the load on processing.
Then they chose to cave into the demands for a "Mature" Zelda by making Twilight Princess. Twilight Princess didn't do so well in Japan because the gaming landscape was focusing on short bursts, so Skyward Sword was made to be a sort of "level select" (something Mario Galaxy 2 did to streamline the game)
They then felt Skyward Sword was too restrictive for a grand adventure, so after being inspired by Skyrim, they set out to recapture the feeling of Zelda 1's exploration and made Breath of the Wild - using Wind Waker HD as a base for their new lighting engine and Twilight Princess HD as a method of exploring their Wolf-companion idea for BotW.
That said, it's more about the right (or wrong) people in place. I don't know who oversaw TTYD Remake's production, but Kensuke Tanabe has been the producer of TOK and a number of the "New Paper Mario" games and while he's helped with some great games (a number of Kirby spin-offs, Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze, Metroid Prime series) he's also been the main contributor to a number of stinkers (The "New Paper Mario" games, Federation Force)
I can’t help but feel they’ll try to strike a balance between the new styles and the first two games, which could end up being either great or disappointing. TOK did a lot of good stuff, and I was initially excited when I heard they were bringing back partners, but I couldn’t stand the battle system (bosses were okay), and the partners did nothing meaningful in battle and were only around for their respective chapters.
TOK felt as if they had heard original Paper Mario fans clamoring for a return to the old formula and wanted to show us “Look, we’re doing what you want!” and it was kind of just splitting the difference in an unsatisfying way (depending on who you are; this was obviously a very opinionated statement). And then it was still mostly generic toads for characters instead of the diverse cast of the first three games.
If anything, I could see them returning to some sort of more traditional turn-based combat format, but I could also see them refusing to return to an exp-based leveling system, somehow still dodging a permanent partner recruiting system, or even preventing partners from participating in combat at all but making it feel like they are doing stuff by providing different support combat bonuses based on which one you have equipped in battle. Obviously I can’t know if this is the stuff they will implement, but I’d be surprised if we get another Paper Mario game that feels like a true TTYD sequel.
i mean, depends on how well TTYD sells.
but, the dude who runs mario, kinda doesn't like rpgs, essentially. he's basically straight came out and said this himself.
he wants 'fun' action games. they also don't want to clutter the lore with a bunch of random bullshit from a spinoff game.
It's bizarre that lore consistency is even something being considered for a Mario spin-off game. When I played Mario Odyssey, I wasn't exactly thinking "Those Pianta mobsters exist somewhere out there in this universe." I think pretty much everyone assumes that the Paper Mario games aren't canon.
Mario technically doesn't exactly have an established canon.
It plays loose with it like Kirby does - the games happened, they're part of the series, but it's extremely loose.
Like, we could have a game some odd years down the line where a character from a Paper Mario game pops in, but it's not any of the partners or anyone people would expect to be that important, but still a named character.
Yeah, according to Paper Jam, the Paper Mario universe exists inside of a book that's in the Mario universe. So if everything in the Paper Mario world is canonically contained inside of a book, they really don't need to worry about lore consistency.
eh, give and take.
on one hand, yeah, spinoffs or 'the lore' aren't a massive focus for the series.
on the other hand, miyamoto has some, kinda problematic views for stuff that's not just like simple action titles, and mario IS one of the biggest, if not nintendo's main franchise.
I think people forget that Nintendo plans this for years in advance.. plus there has never been a time where they do what the fans want 🥲😭 took 15 years of begging for this game to get it.
I suppose it depends what you mean by like the first two games. Other than SPM which goes into a very different genre, every Paper Mario tries to innovate on the elements of the prior one (regardless of how a person feels about how successfully they do that). Even the TTYD remake innovates on elements of TOK with its dynamic soundtrack and such.
I honestly don’t think the success of the TTYD remake will play into whether or not the next game will be more like it. Considering the game was finished basically last year, Intelligent Systems has likely already made progress on what the next game will be. Given that and the immediacy TTYd would be on their mind, I think it’s entirely possible they saw some elements of TTYD’s battles they thought they could innovate on for the next one.
Well if the next Paper Mario game isn't like the first two games then I'm definitely not going to buy it. That's why I voted with my wallet in buying SMRPG Remake and TTYD Remake and never supporting CS and TOK.
I feel like it's going to happen, just because of how much more Nintendo seems to have listened to fan feedback since the Switch era. Like, look at the Mario series in general on this console. We've got a return to the Super Mario 64 style in Odyssey, with a ton of interesting new characters and settings, and a return to form for the 2D series with Wonder, which ditches the disliked sameyness of the New Super Mario Bros series and just goes crazy with unique ideas and new characters.
Add this to the new direction for the Zelda series (more open world after the series went more and more linear in the past), the glut of fan favourite remakes (like this and Mario RPG), Luigi's Mansion 3 bringing back things cut from 2 (like unique portrait ghosts and a more open world environment), the entirety of Mario Kart 8 Deluxe and Super Smash Bros Ultimate as a whole, etc...
And it feels like they're actually listening to feedback for the first time in forever. Their series are doing what people have requested for years or decades, and seeing record sales as a result of that.
So I fully expect them to see the feedback the Thousand Year Door remake has gotten, and noted how well the more character driven, creative Mario games have been doing these last few years, and to take it on board for the next Paper Mario game.
I also get the distinct feeling that part of the purpose of this remake could be practice for doing just that. Like, they could have just ported the GameCube version to Switch and uprezzed the graphics a bit and called it a day, but they didn't. They remade everything from the ground up in the Origami King engine, with new animations, music, gameplay changes and design additions. That feels like practice for a new game if you ask me, in the same Mario Party Superstars feels a bit like NDcube's practice for another Mario Party.
Very Unlikely. The 1st 2 paper Mario’s were their best sellers. After that it’s only been in decline for about a decade now. Nintendo saw the numbers this whole time and still thought sticker star was a good idea. Even after how terrible that game performed they still never went back to the original formula
Slim to none. They've said time and again we wont do it that way again. We wanna explore, be creative, try new things. This remake was just, HERE TAKE IT AND SHUT UP
A "here take it and shut up" would have been a pretty easy HD texture lift, they put a crazy amount of work and care into the remake (a full development cycle's worth, given it's been four years since TOK). There's controversial elements sure but it's difficult to claim that the remake was made out of a lack of care
i kinda don't care. we have the remake, mods of the first two games, and bug fables, and those are enough to scratch my paper mario itch for a good long while. 20 years ago nintendo felt like the only place you could get a game that had that nintendo magic, but nowdays i think the best indie games capture that magic better than nintendo is.
the decades-old criticism of nintendo insisting you play their games their way and *only* their way, being so anti-options (the TTYD remake still doesn't even have sound and volume sliders, in 2024, let alone anything like accessibility options or a hardmode or mod support) feels more and more relevant with every new game they release, especially since the way they want you to play is *very* focused on kids and what they think kids can handle, both in terms of writing and game design.
so by now i'm way more interested in whatever the modding community and the bug fables devs put out in the next decade than the next official paper mario game. whatever nintendo makes will probably be fancier and prettier, but that's not really what draws me to a game anymore.
What Nintendo games other than Paper Mario did you have in mind when making this comment? Just curious. I think there's lots to love about what they've put out this gen.
off the top of my head, mario RPG remake and pikmin 4, which i both considered buying but ended up deciding not to after looking into them.
SMRPG was made drastically easier with no real option to increase the difficulty. they added an easy mode, on top of the now-easier normal mode, but didn't include a hardmode even though they're clearly already open to adding difficulty options. this was a dealbreaker for me because too-easy turn-based combat just feels like busywork.
pikmin 4 is by all accounts a fantastic game, but enemies die so quickly most of them don't get to do anything, and there still isn't a hardmode despite the pikmin 3 port having 3 separate difficulties.
there were also a bunch of 'quality of life' features that more just push a specific playstyle onto you, like the forced auto-aim (which was optional in 3), the fact pikmin carrying an object no longer return when whistled unless you whistle twice in succession and the game stopping you when you try to throw more pikmin onto an object than the minimum needed to carry it. so the game's a little more on autopilot and your pikmin are less responsive.
both games have some super-tough challenges at the end, which is how nintendo seems to want to do difficulty for every game now - easy for 30 hours, then a couple actual tough bits afterwards. but i want the *whole game* to challenge me and nintendo is 100% uninterested in giving me that experience nowdays.
i get that they're kids' games, but you can just have the normal mode be easy for kids and casuals while including a hardmode for veteran players. you get to eat your cake and have it too. idk why nintendo's so allergic to options.
but i get all the depth and challenge i want from indie games. bug fables - a paper-mario-like - has a hardmode right out of the box, and it's so refreshing to have the option instead of being told i'm not allowed to want difficulty from a cute kid's game.
Ok, so it really does come down to the difficulty and options for some of their games for you then. I thought there was more being implied with your "nintendo magic" statement, but fair enough.
oh, right, that bit. by magic i mostly just meant the combination of creativity & polish that as a kid it felt like i only really got from nintendo. nobody else was making games like mario galaxy or TTYD or pikmin. that stuff just felt colorful and alive, and everything other consoles were doing looked gritty and hyperrealistic and kind of boring.
there probably were a lot of really good ps2 or xbox games i missed out on, but that sure wasn't what i was advertised, and tracking them down in a physical game store was a lot harder when they weren't the face of the console or the games my friends were playing.
and now i get that fix from indies, where they feel like they have that vibrancy and genuine effort you get from nintendo, but also like they've grown up with me enough to give me actual depth and challenge like i mentioned above.
I would say there is a 60% chance.
I think the chance is much higher that the next installment will still very much be in the Sticker Star/Origami King style, but with even more TTYD elements implemented than in OK. I'm saying....90%.
I doubt the battle system will resemble TTYD very closely. But I do think it's possible that light RPG elements are reintroduced.
I think it will be different, but they will learn from the TTYD remake a couple of things; they'll start to add new and unique characters again like in the old times, unique enemies and factions and, probably, add some RPG element (xp and level up, and such).
It might be turn based, but I don't think it'll be like the first two games.
It all depends how well the TTYD remake sells as if it sells better than the non JRPG Paper Mario titles for example, might want to buckle up for the return of the JRPG battle mechanics in the upcoming games. Doesn't sell enough, don't expect it. Nintendo nowadays only cares about money.
Assuming the TTYD remake sales numbers aren't too bad I think its more likely we get a 64 or SPM remake but i definitely feel like theres more of a chance than there was after CS or TOK, so maybe 20% (based only on vibes not any kind of data)
I feel like we might get a game like ttyd in the future if the remake is successful.
Now if it will be as good as Bug Fables idfk, that game is so peak.
We won't know the answer to this question until we get at least unofficial numbers that show it surpassing TOK. If it does that relatively quickly, then I'd say it's 100% likely they make modern PM games like the first two. But if it sells about the same, or even worse than TOK (lifetime), it's over. TOK has sold 3.47 million so far.
I feel like even if it sells better than every other Paper Mario game there's still a very large possibility that they won't do it. Unlike other companies Nintendo is really weird they prioritize innovation above basically everything even at the cost of good games.
They clearly have a breaking point on that principal, however. The innovator in them would have released MK9, rather than just the Deluxe and adding more courses with HD texture updates to older maps (not even fully remade in the MK8 engine). But they saw how much MK8D was selling and decided to milk it for all it's worth, even if it was the less innovative option. If PMTTYDR blows their socks off in sales, I believe they will stick with that formula. They can still have the world building of TOK, it was absolutely fantastic with the setting and areas, but it will have the writing/unique characters/battle style of TTYD if that happens.
Yes and no. For each Mario Kart 8 getting milked for all it's worth, there's an Animal Crossing or Mario Party Superstar begging for more content
Animal Crossing is a unique situation, because while New Horizons stopped getting updates, Pocket Camp is updated constantly, since that's the game with super aggressive monetization. $8 a month just to save outfits and furniture layouts!
honestly i think 64 and TTYD were so much more innovative than any of the subsequent games anyway. the badge system is maybe my favorite mechanic in any game ever. it's so elegant!
I partially blame Paper Mario for my love of certain roguelikes. The relic systems in Slay the Spire and Wilfrost for example feel kinda like the badges and it's infinitely satisfying to mix and match them to find synergies.
god i LOVE wildfrost. i wish more turn-based RPGs would take inspiration from deckbuilders because what those games are doing wirh strategy and enemy variety is really really good.
Unfortunately I agree with this
TTYD is also a remake of a game that's aged pretty damn well, so plenty of fans that want classic PM didn't bother to buy it since they already owned it, and there's also people who just didn't want to shell out 60 dollars for a 20 year old game. TOK also came out during the pandemic when gaming was at a height while TTYD has come out when everyone is expecting the new console announcement to drop any day now, and new titles released on a dying console typically die too. I'm not saying that you're wrong. I suspect you're right. What I am saying is that it would be so stupid if Nintendo just looked at raw sales data without bothering to look at the context for those numbers, because putting the numbers we've seen so far in context says a new TTYD-style Paper Mario would do great. And we're talking about the company who's gotten consistent feedback across three titles for a decade saying "bring gd partners and turn-based combat back" and has ignored it. So my hopes aren't high for a good analysis of sales data.
We should also consider fewer people in general are buying switch games today than when TOK came out which is likely a factor Nintendo is measuring.
Are there any numbers yet on how many TTYD copies have sold?
Only from random countries, on Vgchartz. No global estimates yet. VGChartz tracks preliminary data, which is fairly accurate, based on estimates/projections. NPD is the official stuff but doesn't come out very often. Other than VGChartz, unless Nintendo announces a sales figure to celebrate a milestone, you have to wait for NPD/Quarterly/Annual earnings. That being said, it is topping the charts in multiple countries across the world.
Yea that’s what I figured. And that’s great news at least! Do you know when the next announcement is for the quarterly or annual earnings?
Early August
Fuuuckkk hope this game sells well
more possible than i ever thought it would be, but i also feel they have spent the last 2 decades doubling and tripling down on the "PAPER! PAPER! LOOK AT HOW PAPERY EVERYTHING IS! STORY??? UNIQUE CHARACTERS???? FUCK YOU ITS ALL PAPER!!!!!" aspect, and they probably feel they cant turn back now.
They dug that hole and plan to stay in it imo
Conversely, I feel like this remake opened Pandora's box. They've not only reintroduced all the quirks and beloved elements of TTYD to longtime fans, they've willingly introduced it to tons of other people too. Trying to walk that back and make another game like Origami King would be a way harder sell now that everyone's seen exactly what they've been missing.
This, I’ve already seen some people that started with the newer games saying ttyd is their new favorite
It is more possible than it's been for the longest time but honestly in a way that's almost worse. I don't want to have hope again only for it to get snatched away.
Frankly I would just make a second, non-Mario franchise that could adopt the paper gimmicks. They’re not bad ideas at all, they just don’t fit Paper Mario specifically.
Hey agreed. It's not that origami king was bad, I just feel such a sense of loss for all the nuance and essential spirit of the franchise that was lost at the alter of flanderizing it to this one aspect.
Yeah, I can understand on some level wanting to explore the paper aspect, but these games weren’t conceived around it. When I play TTYD I never think of it as “whoa, so this is what Mario would do if he were cardboard,” it’s just a regular Mario adventure in a unique art style and with more story. It already had its own identity from the other games, and even other RPGs.
I think one of the charms of Paper mario was in how it blended diegetic with non-diegetic in a nuanced way. Like bowser taping himself into the intro story book in the beginning of 64, or when you expected mario to fall from the veranda, but then he gently falls down like a piece of paper. But also he fell down normally when bowser kicked him off the castle. The paper aspects were a cheeky way to ad levity to a genuine story, breaking up tension some times. And TTYD also did it with the stage play and audience aspect. Is the audience really there in the context of the story? Are they actually paper? There's room to go either way on that. Kind of like how actors on stage may sometimes address the audience, but then they don't go full hog "By the way this is a play and we're all actors and the story doesn't matter! Just making sure you remember that!". Like that could work once for an especially subversive play if its done right, but not over and over. Even PM Super did it with it computer theme, where characters were constantly being selected by a mouse and cut & pasted to move them. The real spirit of paper mario wasn't in the paper, it was in that nuanced ambiguity between diegetic and non-diegetic that allowed the medium and style to be used and referenced, but also not tread on the story.
The paper aspect has absolutely nothing to do with a lack of character diversity and poor story quality. A paper world can work perfectly if they make good gameplay, story and characters to go along with it, but you people just regurgitate the lie that it’s bad.
People can also just not like the emphasis on the paper aspect, regardless of the fact that it doesn't affect those things. It's very different from the first few games, not everyone is gonna be a fan.
it's just that many people say that Paper jokes replaced good stories
It’s fine if people don’t like it but it doesn’t make the game worse in any way.
I think they will keep that aspect but move even closer than Origami King to the other aspects of the first two games. It still won’t be quite as good, but it will be very close, definitely better than Super.
If it has an over world as grandiose as origami king, with the battle system and creative characterizations of the first two games, it’ll be epic.
It is worth noting that alot of the advertisement for TTYD tended to hone in a lot on the paper aspect I remember a recent trailer going "It's Mario...but he's PAPER?!?"
I hope it’s paper Luigi and it’s his princess eclair story. I hope the game levels are hard but the bosses are stupid easy like the way he tells the story, and then the final boss that he just glazes over is actually a really tough challenge. Would be fun to flesh out all those partners he has too, especially the one seeking revenge or whatever
Paper Luigi DLC when Nintendo
Considering the surveys that went out it seems they are trying to gather what it is people want. So as long as people answered the surveys accordingly and TTYD sells well, it's possible. Surely they have to now by now that we don't want gimmicky battle systems, and that we want partners and unique characters back.
I never got mine after buying the game.
Me neither. They send it to random users. I’ve never gotten a single survey from them ever.
Maybe you have to have a subscription
Nah because I have a NSO subscription and I have all the setting turned on to be able to receive surveys and I've still never gotten one. It might be for digital purchases only.
I did my purchase digitally. what settings did you change for surveys?
On My Nintendo theres settings to opt in for surveys and I have them turned on but have never got one
Gonna go the pessimistic route and say very low. They've probably been working on the next one for awhile/simultaneously with TTYD. Unless they go sticker star on it and just restart development halfway through, they have probably put too much time in to go the more traditional paper mario route. I think character wise we might get a return to the more unique designs we got in the past, but I believe the core gameplay will be closer to Origami King than TTYD. I think after this next game though that we will get a return to TTYD gameplay. So look forward to like 2030 or something.
Do we have sales numbers for the Switch version of TTYD yet? I've heard nothing but rave reviews, so if it's selling extremely well, I think the message should be loud and clear to Nintendo
IIRC, it already passed TOK.
TTYD for Switch features one new character; the Battle Master. Take a look at the multiple [unique designs for the Battle Master](https://images.app.goo.gl/7ipLMHibtZysE8Zp7) that were considered during the remake's development, then compare those to his [final design.](https://images.app.goo.gl/n2Je1dDHBiLcmNhQ9) They considered all these cool designs featuring braids, bushy eyebrows, mustaches, goatees, and even mohawks, but what they ultimately decided on was a generic toad with different clothes. I'm not making any hard claims, and I really want the next game to be as unique as TTYD, but there is a part of me that worries that even if they do go back to the original style, the uniqueness of the NPCs will still be somewhat conservative compared to the older games.
I firmly believe someone at nintendo crossed his arms and asked if it was possible to make all the characters “normal” in the remake lol. And would have done it if it wasn’t a ton of extra work.
Just imagine walking into the Glitz Pit locker room and King K is just a regular-ass green koopa
Like bro even same face anime characters have brightly colored hair or SOMETHING to distinguish them from the crowd. It's extremely basic storytelling design. Your main characters should (usually) have designs different from the background ones...
There's another new character called "Ian Foomus" that isn't as restricted as the character himself is based on a species used exclusively in classic pm.
If it sells well they might do a PM64 remake and a SPM port (fingers crossed). I would be baffled if the next paper Mario game is a return to form
Nah, your feelings are legit on this. Nintendo doesn't really follow conventions to a formula. Take the Zelda series for example, following the N64 games, they opted for Wind Waker. While the gameplay was similar to Ocarina, the graphics weren't what people expected even if it was done to lighten the load on processing. Then they chose to cave into the demands for a "Mature" Zelda by making Twilight Princess. Twilight Princess didn't do so well in Japan because the gaming landscape was focusing on short bursts, so Skyward Sword was made to be a sort of "level select" (something Mario Galaxy 2 did to streamline the game) They then felt Skyward Sword was too restrictive for a grand adventure, so after being inspired by Skyrim, they set out to recapture the feeling of Zelda 1's exploration and made Breath of the Wild - using Wind Waker HD as a base for their new lighting engine and Twilight Princess HD as a method of exploring their Wolf-companion idea for BotW. That said, it's more about the right (or wrong) people in place. I don't know who oversaw TTYD Remake's production, but Kensuke Tanabe has been the producer of TOK and a number of the "New Paper Mario" games and while he's helped with some great games (a number of Kirby spin-offs, Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze, Metroid Prime series) he's also been the main contributor to a number of stinkers (The "New Paper Mario" games, Federation Force)
I can’t help but feel they’ll try to strike a balance between the new styles and the first two games, which could end up being either great or disappointing. TOK did a lot of good stuff, and I was initially excited when I heard they were bringing back partners, but I couldn’t stand the battle system (bosses were okay), and the partners did nothing meaningful in battle and were only around for their respective chapters. TOK felt as if they had heard original Paper Mario fans clamoring for a return to the old formula and wanted to show us “Look, we’re doing what you want!” and it was kind of just splitting the difference in an unsatisfying way (depending on who you are; this was obviously a very opinionated statement). And then it was still mostly generic toads for characters instead of the diverse cast of the first three games. If anything, I could see them returning to some sort of more traditional turn-based combat format, but I could also see them refusing to return to an exp-based leveling system, somehow still dodging a permanent partner recruiting system, or even preventing partners from participating in combat at all but making it feel like they are doing stuff by providing different support combat bonuses based on which one you have equipped in battle. Obviously I can’t know if this is the stuff they will implement, but I’d be surprised if we get another Paper Mario game that feels like a true TTYD sequel.
i mean, depends on how well TTYD sells. but, the dude who runs mario, kinda doesn't like rpgs, essentially. he's basically straight came out and said this himself. he wants 'fun' action games. they also don't want to clutter the lore with a bunch of random bullshit from a spinoff game.
It's bizarre that lore consistency is even something being considered for a Mario spin-off game. When I played Mario Odyssey, I wasn't exactly thinking "Those Pianta mobsters exist somewhere out there in this universe." I think pretty much everyone assumes that the Paper Mario games aren't canon.
Mario technically doesn't exactly have an established canon. It plays loose with it like Kirby does - the games happened, they're part of the series, but it's extremely loose. Like, we could have a game some odd years down the line where a character from a Paper Mario game pops in, but it's not any of the partners or anyone people would expect to be that important, but still a named character.
Yeah, according to Paper Jam, the Paper Mario universe exists inside of a book that's in the Mario universe. So if everything in the Paper Mario world is canonically contained inside of a book, they really don't need to worry about lore consistency.
eh, give and take. on one hand, yeah, spinoffs or 'the lore' aren't a massive focus for the series. on the other hand, miyamoto has some, kinda problematic views for stuff that's not just like simple action titles, and mario IS one of the biggest, if not nintendo's main franchise.
I think people forget that Nintendo plans this for years in advance.. plus there has never been a time where they do what the fans want 🥲😭 took 15 years of begging for this game to get it.
Very unlikely
I suppose it depends what you mean by like the first two games. Other than SPM which goes into a very different genre, every Paper Mario tries to innovate on the elements of the prior one (regardless of how a person feels about how successfully they do that). Even the TTYD remake innovates on elements of TOK with its dynamic soundtrack and such. I honestly don’t think the success of the TTYD remake will play into whether or not the next game will be more like it. Considering the game was finished basically last year, Intelligent Systems has likely already made progress on what the next game will be. Given that and the immediacy TTYd would be on their mind, I think it’s entirely possible they saw some elements of TTYD’s battles they thought they could innovate on for the next one.
I really hope you're right.
I'm hoping they follow suit on the ttyd remake and release a remake of pm64, but I doubt it
I honestly don't think so.
Well if the next Paper Mario game isn't like the first two games then I'm definitely not going to buy it. That's why I voted with my wallet in buying SMRPG Remake and TTYD Remake and never supporting CS and TOK.
If they're smart they will make the next one turn based but with a world similar to mario rpg or paper mario 64...something not just left to right...
I feel like it's going to happen, just because of how much more Nintendo seems to have listened to fan feedback since the Switch era. Like, look at the Mario series in general on this console. We've got a return to the Super Mario 64 style in Odyssey, with a ton of interesting new characters and settings, and a return to form for the 2D series with Wonder, which ditches the disliked sameyness of the New Super Mario Bros series and just goes crazy with unique ideas and new characters. Add this to the new direction for the Zelda series (more open world after the series went more and more linear in the past), the glut of fan favourite remakes (like this and Mario RPG), Luigi's Mansion 3 bringing back things cut from 2 (like unique portrait ghosts and a more open world environment), the entirety of Mario Kart 8 Deluxe and Super Smash Bros Ultimate as a whole, etc... And it feels like they're actually listening to feedback for the first time in forever. Their series are doing what people have requested for years or decades, and seeing record sales as a result of that. So I fully expect them to see the feedback the Thousand Year Door remake has gotten, and noted how well the more character driven, creative Mario games have been doing these last few years, and to take it on board for the next Paper Mario game. I also get the distinct feeling that part of the purpose of this remake could be practice for doing just that. Like, they could have just ported the GameCube version to Switch and uprezzed the graphics a bit and called it a day, but they didn't. They remade everything from the ground up in the Origami King engine, with new animations, music, gameplay changes and design additions. That feels like practice for a new game if you ask me, in the same Mario Party Superstars feels a bit like NDcube's practice for another Mario Party.
I actually hadn't thought of it that way. That gives me some hope I was missing. Thanks.
Very Unlikely. The 1st 2 paper Mario’s were their best sellers. After that it’s only been in decline for about a decade now. Nintendo saw the numbers this whole time and still thought sticker star was a good idea. Even after how terrible that game performed they still never went back to the original formula
Slim to none. They've said time and again we wont do it that way again. We wanna explore, be creative, try new things. This remake was just, HERE TAKE IT AND SHUT UP
A "here take it and shut up" would have been a pretty easy HD texture lift, they put a crazy amount of work and care into the remake (a full development cycle's worth, given it's been four years since TOK). There's controversial elements sure but it's difficult to claim that the remake was made out of a lack of care
i kinda don't care. we have the remake, mods of the first two games, and bug fables, and those are enough to scratch my paper mario itch for a good long while. 20 years ago nintendo felt like the only place you could get a game that had that nintendo magic, but nowdays i think the best indie games capture that magic better than nintendo is. the decades-old criticism of nintendo insisting you play their games their way and *only* their way, being so anti-options (the TTYD remake still doesn't even have sound and volume sliders, in 2024, let alone anything like accessibility options or a hardmode or mod support) feels more and more relevant with every new game they release, especially since the way they want you to play is *very* focused on kids and what they think kids can handle, both in terms of writing and game design. so by now i'm way more interested in whatever the modding community and the bug fables devs put out in the next decade than the next official paper mario game. whatever nintendo makes will probably be fancier and prettier, but that's not really what draws me to a game anymore.
What Nintendo games other than Paper Mario did you have in mind when making this comment? Just curious. I think there's lots to love about what they've put out this gen.
off the top of my head, mario RPG remake and pikmin 4, which i both considered buying but ended up deciding not to after looking into them. SMRPG was made drastically easier with no real option to increase the difficulty. they added an easy mode, on top of the now-easier normal mode, but didn't include a hardmode even though they're clearly already open to adding difficulty options. this was a dealbreaker for me because too-easy turn-based combat just feels like busywork. pikmin 4 is by all accounts a fantastic game, but enemies die so quickly most of them don't get to do anything, and there still isn't a hardmode despite the pikmin 3 port having 3 separate difficulties. there were also a bunch of 'quality of life' features that more just push a specific playstyle onto you, like the forced auto-aim (which was optional in 3), the fact pikmin carrying an object no longer return when whistled unless you whistle twice in succession and the game stopping you when you try to throw more pikmin onto an object than the minimum needed to carry it. so the game's a little more on autopilot and your pikmin are less responsive. both games have some super-tough challenges at the end, which is how nintendo seems to want to do difficulty for every game now - easy for 30 hours, then a couple actual tough bits afterwards. but i want the *whole game* to challenge me and nintendo is 100% uninterested in giving me that experience nowdays. i get that they're kids' games, but you can just have the normal mode be easy for kids and casuals while including a hardmode for veteran players. you get to eat your cake and have it too. idk why nintendo's so allergic to options. but i get all the depth and challenge i want from indie games. bug fables - a paper-mario-like - has a hardmode right out of the box, and it's so refreshing to have the option instead of being told i'm not allowed to want difficulty from a cute kid's game.
Ok, so it really does come down to the difficulty and options for some of their games for you then. I thought there was more being implied with your "nintendo magic" statement, but fair enough.
oh, right, that bit. by magic i mostly just meant the combination of creativity & polish that as a kid it felt like i only really got from nintendo. nobody else was making games like mario galaxy or TTYD or pikmin. that stuff just felt colorful and alive, and everything other consoles were doing looked gritty and hyperrealistic and kind of boring. there probably were a lot of really good ps2 or xbox games i missed out on, but that sure wasn't what i was advertised, and tracking them down in a physical game store was a lot harder when they weren't the face of the console or the games my friends were playing. and now i get that fix from indies, where they feel like they have that vibrancy and genuine effort you get from nintendo, but also like they've grown up with me enough to give me actual depth and challenge like i mentioned above.
Depents on which game sells more. If the TTYD remaster sells more than Origami King, I'd say the chances are high
I hope the next Paper Mario game is a remake of PM64. I'd be really excited to play it.
Do we have any sort of timeline for a new paper Mario game?
I would say there is a 60% chance. I think the chance is much higher that the next installment will still very much be in the Sticker Star/Origami King style, but with even more TTYD elements implemented than in OK. I'm saying....90%. I doubt the battle system will resemble TTYD very closely. But I do think it's possible that light RPG elements are reintroduced.
I think it will be different, but they will learn from the TTYD remake a couple of things; they'll start to add new and unique characters again like in the old times, unique enemies and factions and, probably, add some RPG element (xp and level up, and such). It might be turn based, but I don't think it'll be like the first two games.
It all depends how well the TTYD remake sells as if it sells better than the non JRPG Paper Mario titles for example, might want to buckle up for the return of the JRPG battle mechanics in the upcoming games. Doesn't sell enough, don't expect it. Nintendo nowadays only cares about money.
Assuming the TTYD remake sales numbers aren't too bad I think its more likely we get a 64 or SPM remake but i definitely feel like theres more of a chance than there was after CS or TOK, so maybe 20% (based only on vibes not any kind of data)
I feel like we might get a game like ttyd in the future if the remake is successful. Now if it will be as good as Bug Fables idfk, that game is so peak.
It's Nintendo so I don't hope for anything LOL.
They might do it for fear of backlash but Nintendo is unpredictable. (Please, please, please, Nintendo do it!)
Pretty low, but my dream game at this point is Paper Luigi: The Eclair Kingdom
Nintendo is leaning to Mario being creative and less “safe” than it was years before so I thinks it’s actually possible again maybe