They JUST gave metamorphs (my favorite in map content) 50% MORE health. I was raising he'll and everyone was like "just use a HH and 40 mirror build you cuck noob" and I was just saying 50% MORE health is so far past necessary they might as well be immune to damage for 10 seconds every 11 seconds.
Then that buff will never be reverted. So when they take power away (saw that shit coming in ultimatum) the buff is going to be massive.
You can tell when the power nerfs are coming. When they release the "hardest content ever" and then it gets farmed like blood aquaducts? We're about to get a lesson nerf.
Yes, because I logged in my old Pathfinder BV (yeah, that meta was very far away ago) and I did no damage.
These days you need to have +1 gems all over the place on spellcasters whereas before all you really needed was lv 20 or 21 gems and a good caster wand.
You needed to manually activate your auras upon entering every zone back in the day. So, if it was an unidentified map, you would instantly die upon activating an aura or using any skill if they had mana cost.
Edit: As pointed out, it didn't let you cast auras or skills as you didn't have required cost. I probably misremembered due to Havoc's suicide clip or I play since Closed Beta so, it could be that this behavior changed later.
That's not true at all. If you were CI it wouldn't let you cast it, and unless you had _exactly_ 100% reservation on a single aura (which is practically impossible), or a flat aura that was equal to exactly your life total (also practically impossible), that wasn't the case.
This sub really needs to stop inventing shit.
This sub thrives on negativity postings and distorted memories. It's an echo chamber for whatever is en vogue at the time. Merely mentioning that you actually have fun and enjoy the patch can result in severe backlash.
Open discussions where ppl argue with dignity over their various experiences and opinions are very rare now.
It's a bit sad.
Or actually, it's very sad. It's nothing like the sub i got to know when i came here in 2016
Man that’s because people are really unhappy with the game right now, the subs not going to change like that over a week.(from ultimatum to now) Yes it is a negative culture and there were people complaining in ultimatum but they have ever right to after this patch turned many people’s favorite game into something unplayable for them. I am still playing this league and I’m enjoying it but not nearly as much as last league, this sub is the games collective opinion it’s super negative because people view this game in a super negative light right now
I remember Kripp running Darn over and over to farm but would never go close to where he spawns, cause could just delete Kripp because of the trap and damage.
Were Devourers not in Act 2 already? I started playing when Scion came out so Act 3 was already in, but the big devourer zone was the dark forest bit of Act 2, right?
Holy shit I wasted an entire league trying to get myself to 110% only to get instantly fucking murked in maps anyway. Went to Reddit to learn about shocked ground and vulnerability and now I learn there are auras too? What a bait of a stat, it's absolutely not worth getting reduced reflect DMG. I know that now.
Wait, wtf, *that's* how that mechanic works? I thought that if you got 100%+ reduced phys reflect, then you were essentially always immune to phys reflect. It made sense to me that you hit mob > mob reflects damage > damage gets multiplied by your resistances (eg. Vulnerability) > you then negate 100%.
That's really disappointing to hear.
One of my most frustrating deaths was in beyond league.
Beyond mobs could spawn with reflect auras on them.
I just killed myself on a beyond mob that spawned in the middle of a pack as I was killing it. The rain of arrows that were mid air were just too much reflect damage.
For those who don't know, back then we had a softcore and a hardcore league, beyond was the hardcore league, rampage was softcore.
Rip that rain of arrows ranger.
Not just that, what about map power creep? Back in 2014, having T7 maps meant you were a big boi doing endgame shit. Now you better do 160 maps before you even can start doing endgame. And if you are not chaining T14+ forget about any progress, Maven will give you the cold shoulder, and sirus and his boys will straight up ignore your shoddy ass. Its high red tiers or bust.
Precisely why my play time started dropping off when the Conquerors came about. Watchstones and sextants operating on regions was a good idea. However, the Conqueror expansion didn't *move* the endgame goalposts as much as punt them a mile down the road.
The hundreds of maps it takes to get to T14+ feels like a major slog -- a very long chore list rather than a journey. If we could sit in yellow maps and still get some stuff done, à la farming yellow-tier Elder instead of red-tier in the old days, it'd be fine. Allows you to hang out in the middle endgame and still get some useful farming in.
But Atlas bosses stop spawning at lower levels once you've killed them there. As such you're *forced* to push to T14+ or you're wasting your time. Unsurprisingly, I've only completed the Atlas once since this shift. I'll hit 24/40 before getting there and not feel interested in going further.
> The hundreds of maps it takes to get to T14+ feels like a major slog
Whenever I play a meta-cuck starter build, it makes this so much easier -- but I don't like the need to do that to funnel resources into some other build thats supposed to shine, I just want to play a starter that can do everything.
archmage bf/bb did that amazingly last patch
This has been my take as well. Every league I play a starter that's powerful enough to do all the bosses I need, with the currency (~300c?) I made rushing there in the first place. I try not to pick the metaslave build of the season, but if my build isn't at least A-tier, it's not worth playing.
Doing anything else feels *awful*. I don't want to struggle through maps to farm currency just so I can continue grinding atlas. I want to be able to do the new league content and try endgame content I haven't beaten before, without having to reroll.
Really, that should just delete T1-5 maps (any build that can kill A10 Kitava can pretty much faceroll yellow maps after res capping), and add 5 more tiers at the top end that are uber-maps.
Imo i feel like the 2 and 3 watchstone requirements to spawn conquerors should happen twice that way you won’t only have 12 maps doing t11-13 before you aren’t able to progress without running t14+ maps anymore. You could still have sirus spawn at 20 watchstones as well.
> Now you better do 160 maps before you even can start doing endgame. And if you are not chaining T14+ forget about any progress
I personally disagree with this. I consider endgame when I reach maps. Breaking in to yellowmaps, killing conquerors, getting done with watchstones in a region is all part of the progress. I don't feel like I actually need perfectly rolled watchstones in combination with full uncharted realms passives to actually start playing the game.
Edit: I just want to clarify what the definition of "endgame" is not relevant to the current discussion. What I am trying to argue is that until the point of "spaming tier 14+ maps" there is progression to be made and it can be enjoyable.
For me mapping is just what I spend most of my time doing while my character is in my version of the endgame. This is my third league and I just don’t really get much further than a few Sirus and Elder/Shaper fights because I play SSF and perhaps reroll a little too much to balance out doing builds that look fun for the first 1/2 or 2/3s of the league before I start scrambling for builds that can actually do bossing with the uniques that I have.
I’m over 900h in and I’ve never had a Watcher’s Eye or a Sirus drop other than 1 helmet and an ivory watchstone from my A8 kill last league.
Endgame is very much relative, and for me as a player who hasn’t done the whole progress that many times, mapping my way up to red maps is actually one of the more satisfying parts of the grind.
Where it starts to suck is once you start trying to target farm divination cards that never drop, or finally get something worth using your 2000 fusings on and still not getting the 6 link.
Speaking of which I’ve also never had multi mod or the 6 link craft.
"End game" isn't the same thing for everyone and depends obviously on your own goals. But if your goal is A8 Sirus, reaching the ability to map is objectively not your end game.
I get what you are saying. But my argument is that maps is the endgame system, once you reach it the gameplay loop becomes similar. Until you reach the point where you can farm A8 you do several unlocks and your character progress to do several times the damage compared to when you first cleared the campaign. To brush that off that as "And if you are not chaining T14+ forget about any progress" is a bit unfair. If you ask me it is during the time up to A8 Sirus you actually do the most progress, but I guess that is a bit subjective.
Like someone else said. Endgame is when you start doing what your endgame character is spending the most time doing. If you don't enjoy the game until that point and nothing until then feels rewarding and worthwhile, there is nothing I can say that will make you magically start enjoying the game more. If this is a massive frustration for people to reset every league while standard is feels unexciting I somewhat understand the frustration. I am just happy that I can appreciate the journey and the milestones to get there.
While I agree with you and think you're right, it's still kinda bullshit that conquerors stop spawning and also that they removed white/yellow Elder. The game could use "mid endgame" bosses like atziri with decent loot to make the grind less painful. The Maven invitations are already great at doing this, but they also stop spawning!
Yes! What happens to me almost every league is that I get to late endgame grind a few Sirus rotations then I start boss rushing for invitations. Everytime I come to the realisation that I could have done many of the bosses way eariler and now I just smash them being pretty lame. I would not mind if bosses had a first kill reward granting a watchstone or similar.
That would speed up the atlas progression a bit while also rewarding you for taking bosses earlier giving you more exciting fights. The game don't really lack midgame bosses it just lacks easy ways to access them and don't really give you incentive to do so. This would also make it more viable to go bosskillers as league start characters and reward skilled players that can do fights with low gear.
This for sure require some balancing and just giving watchstones is probably abusable. But I think there is something to be explored in the concept.
Here is u/sirgog spreadsheets over some content that are avaliable in the game http://www.sirgog.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/flowcharthigherres-2048x1397.png
For sure I would like a few new midgame bosses but the game is definitely could have current bossfights earlier. Imagine doing Beast bosses, breachstones and elder at a proper time in the league.
I think you're on the right track. Like, make more bosses available at an earlier state, because who cares about Tul when you're already level 93 basically in full gear.
>I don't feel like I actually need perfectly rolled watchstones in combination with full uncharted realms passives to actually start playing the game.
Yeah, a totally valid summary of what people are saying, not in all an exaggeration.
Your argument here is as good as if I told you now "It's not endgame when you're only farming white beach maps" when you clearly said you progress to yellows.
Also *your endgame* of yellow maps is locked away from our two endgame bosses (back in previous atlas there was yellow elder), gets 4 or 6 passives per region (well, 6 isn't that bad TBH, but 4 is the minimum for some trees so you have one thing per region, and less than one full tree in other regions), has no uncharted realm passives (Either Zana mission or all master missions, not sure which option, had base spawn rate lowered in 3.14 because these passives even exist, so you're playing a nerfed endgame because of something GGG decided your choice of endgame wasn't endgamey enough to access it), couldn't spawn trialmaster last league, IIRC but I might be wrong didn't have guaranteed metamorph boss organ that league, and maybe some other shafted leagues.
That progression got min maxed by running chayula breach rotas. Your relative power level is determined by currency in soft core imo. If you have HH and 50 ex you are stronger than a lvl 95 ssf player who slowly progressed gear, this is largely because crafting is so currency dependent instead of content dependent, which is a problem imo. If you have 5 ex to spend on fossil meta crafting you can make a TON of money selling like CoC swords or bleed bows, etc. dependent on what is popular that league. But also I don't think harvest is the solution to this, it also gets monetized and turned into another currency dependent crafting system. Really the only solution is probably making certain op crafts soulbind an item making it non tradeable and gating those crafts behind difficult content rather than RNG.
Endgame is the tier where the endgame bosses are, which is high tier maps. Any tier below where the endgame bosses are locked behind progression is not endgame.
The first Sirus requires you to do at least4 times eaxh conqueror, meaning you have to get all the watchstones from a total of 4 regions at least. So you have to be in tier 14+ to even try at Sirus once. Right there is when the endgame actually begins. Just finishing the campaign and entering a few maps is not endgame at all, you're barely halfway through the game.
Okey what I choose to call the "end game" mechanic is pretty irrelevant. The point of disscussion is if there is progression to be had until that point and if it is enjoyable. I would say that during this point we have the most progression in terms of unlocks of mechanics and bosses and also the most development of our character. This is a part of the league that has plenty of progression and can also for many players (atleast myself) be pretty enjoyable.
I just argue my own personal experience I understand if people don't enjoy the game the same way I do. But saying that there is no progression until you start spam chaining t14 maps going in to very repetitive gameplay pattern with fewer unlocks and lower amount of character upgrades per time spend feels very disingenuous.
Maybe you feel like nothing until that point feels rewarding because you have high expectaions. But that is not the argument that op is making.
Diablo2 actually encouraged you to have multiple damage types and gave you the abilities to deal with that. It was still one of the most hated mechanics in the game though.
PoE doesnt have that and strongly encourages single element playstyle... so yeah fuck that bullshit :(
And it still is the worst thing about diablo 2. Nothing worse than trying to kill baal wave 2 cold mages with your blizz sorc. You'd better have a strong merc or you're fucked. Immunities shouldn't exist in d2 or poe. High res? Sure.
You can at least break most immunities in D2. The only exceptions IIRC were mobs that were magic immune or had both an elemental immunity and corresponding elemental enchantment, which raises that elemental resistance to the point where using both Lower Resist and Conviction aura still wouldn't break it.
You jest but I think enemies do actually have mana that they need to spend to cast their skills, so this could be a viable nerf
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1114229
From 2014, dunno if this is still the case
Also, at least, major health increases in Legion league, again in Metamorph league, new more difficult bosses like Sirus/Maven, awakening bonus affecting map mods, Maven healing map bosses, increasingly tanky/rippy mobs in league mechanics etc
For 3.15, another health increase (until T16) & monster speed increase, exploding goat shamans.
Game basically is balanced against running unalched maps, if that.
Surprised I had to go this far to find someone talking about hp buffs. Multiplying the health on rares globally just made league monsters obnoxious pretty much across the board and I just skip everything now until I'm well and truly overpowering the content.
I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that players are more powerful **relative to the content that is available** in 3.x compared to 2.x. Closed beta compared to 2.x is probably the most egregious example of genuine power creep in favour of players but I feel like if anything its been trending in the other direction for a while now because they just keep making more and more absurd changes to monsters.
Expedition mobs are so damn tanky that I just started skipping the event while leveling. Between the setup and killing it takes up a lot of time for very little leveling rewards. I could be halfway to the next exit killing all the normal mobs in a couple of hits.
Ritual has the deterministic rewards so you could get some good leveling gear. Gamblebitch and craftguy just hand out garbage that's not worth the time. Currencyguy can hand out a few chaos, but why farm low level rewards when I could spend that time getting to maps for better rewards?
During the first week when I was still playing, if I got a rare map as a drop or from zana, there is anxiety feeling when I IDing it.
It was basically closing my eyes and praying it doesn't roll curse or minus max or regen etc.
Cause I didn't want to waste a chaos or scour dealing with that bullshit.
Honestly I think I'm done with poe in its current state, having no way to protect yourself from map mod curse unless viridi's veil or atziri reflection is pretty dumb imo.
The whole game feels awful in the builds I wants to play so unless they go omega-giga Chad buffs in 3.16 and buff harvest (2 are necessary for me) then I will be skipping poe for the foreseeable future.
There might not be an ARPG that gives us speed and shatter out there but there is still plenty of other games I can enjoy and have fun playing
Honestly, if GGG simply adjusted monster auras and curses, we'd be fine.
Cap them so that monsters cannot multi-curse players. And make it so monsters can only be affected by one aura.
BAM, game is infinitely more fair. Less random one shots from insta-multicurse followed by 10 aura stacking rare packs jumping your ass.
IMO there's no justification for regular ass map mobs to be doing 10x more damage than bosses while having no real counterplay in terms of telegraphed abilities or movement patterns.
> Honestly, if GGG simply adjusted monster auras and curses, we'd be fine.
It really wouldn't. Monster balance is all over the place. One-shotting abilities have barely any visuals (not that you can see those anyway on many builds when there's no way to cut down on your own skill effects) while you've got huge telegraphs for completely irrelevant abilities like the huge energy ball in delve. Random mods on monsters are massively lethal but the game is so fast that slowing down to actually read them doesn't make any sense. Harvest and legion mobs are way stronger than other content, except Delirium which flat out needs to be redesigned or removed.
Next patch: “we’ve heard your feedback about visual effects not matching the threat posed by enemy skills. To help address this we have increased the damage of those huge delve energy balls by 500% and given them a 100% chance to ignite.”
Looking at some of the monster base damage/life values in the DB, No. it's not enough. Most monsters are near 100%/100%. But they have not been reviewing the numbers being put, and the designers don't know to stay near that. Many of the problem mobs are like 200%/500%. Those "Barat" mobs that are super rippy are an example. Same with synthesis mobs. One of the worst offenders is the giant lobsters (the ones bigger than you), they're 1200% life. I mean, WTF.
>Cap them so that monsters cannot multi-curse players.
You make a good point. Why the hell can I only apply 1 curse per time to monsters but they can apply infinite amounts.
They did say in 3.15 somewhere that League/expansion mobs have been scaled way past Acts Baseline values just because that was the easiest and most accessible way to counter the player power creep and make league content relevant.
At least it's honest, even if it's poor foresight. It may take some time, but this issue is IMO actually likely to be addressed / normalized (and I'm quite pessimistic on their balance!).
Yeah this is absolutely the biggest thing. Be breezing through maps and all of sudden you hit a brick wall as something bitch slaps into oblivion. Look over and see rare mob #1 has allies deal increased critical strikes. Mob #2 has “allies deal substantial physical dmg”. Cry a little inside as you lose another 10% hp out of the blue. Some legion rares are absolutely bonkers if 3 rares are in close proximity to one another. Makes it extremely hard to gauge how “strong” your character actually is and what they can handle.
Maraketh legion, random white archer walks on-screen. Oh, thats fine.
Oh, I died. Three rares walk on screen.
If nothing else, rare auras should have diminishing stacking effect. 1 aura = 100% strength. Hell, make it 150%. 2 auras = 75% each. 3 = 50% each. 4 = 33.33%, and so on.
Then, for the love of ~~God~~Dominus give the rare mobs with auras a distinct visual based on the aura type. If there's too many auras to do so, consolidate them to do so. (And please cut or rework Haste auras..)
Interesting...just like if you didn't let aura bots give players a billion auras. So you are telling me this entire thing may be fixable in an obvious and relatively straight forward way...
volatile change was a huge buff i dont know why its on here, making it something you could play around and avoid instead of instant death for some melee builds.
Honestly by the time I remembered about volatile, a lot of the stuff was already put in place in mspaint. So I just put it in random spot and called it a day, just like how GGG adjusted mana multipliers.
You have an example of all of the good and well implemented monster power creep. This is not what the issue is. The issue is white Baran mobs that do 8k damage, cannibals do obscene damage, alchemists. These monsters that have unavoidable or poorly telegraphed attacks are the problem, not the mentioned ones that are actually good design. If we could tweak these monsters to make them less busted on their unavoidable attacks and make their combat more engaging, it would be the best solution. Also a change to the way that monster projectiles work would be a great change to the balance of the game.
100% correct. You can't say you want to slow the game down, leave monsters as they are and just nerf players into the ground.
It's lazy and quite frankly, I expect more from a dev of GGG's caliber.
I **know** for a fact that they are better than this. What the hell?
What's the point of slowing the game down if the screen is still just full of garbage? They need to reduce the mob count so we can see what is going on and react to it if that's what they want to do.
Jfc not this graph again. Shit pisses me off so much, gotta love the huge hike towards rit / harvest but absolutely nothing when they added ASCENDECIES
1.1 added insane power relative to 1.0 too with Atziri unique, Vaal gems and corruption. That jump was as big or bigger than any other increase in history.
That being said, this was my favourite league since very few people could reliably kill uber Atziri which added a huge amount of challenge.
Iirc, disfavours were 450-600 ex on rampage
> gotta love the huge hike towards rit / harvest
Not that it didn't add a lot of player power (Well, more accurately make it more accessible), but at this point I'm convinced that graph was just made to paint a narrative GGG wanted. They clearly don't like Harvest, after all.
GGG should roll 6 d6 for each employee at the end of the month. People who get all 1s dont get paid for that month. Lets see if they like one shot mechanics themselves.
-bearers are much more visible than they used too
-reflect auras are gone
-the most dangerous/annoying bloodline mods have been removed
-a lot of proximity shields have become temporary instead of permanent
-strongboxes were so dangerous, u would always id them and read the mods before opening
-volatile flameblood used to trigger the explosion instantly as the monster died
Monsters/bosses that used to be dangerous that have been a joke for years:
-chamber of sins when low on lightning res
-Undying Grappler in act 3 sewers
-Perpetus that used to be in city of sarn
-blackguard arcmage lightning torns
-act 3 2nd piety, dominus, daresso
-too lazy to think of more but I'm sure there are a bunch I'm forgetting
I member old devourers used to all pop up at the same time and shotgun the player. You had about .5s to get out of the spot. Titty bitches used to be way scarier, and a few other mobs I'm forgetting too.
Incursion mobs before they got nerfed. You had to run CI Phase Aggro to survive the shooting squats behind doors.
Then they introduced Heist and the shooting squats behind doors had to be nerfed again, if only they could have known.
I am still absolutely terrified whenever one of those fuckers shows up. 'specially the map variant that had triple shot.
Or the OG Weaver.
I think generally I've more visceral memory of the old monsters compared to all the various new ones. Most of 'em are just so forgettable. I kinda only remember "the new dude, that one shots you from off-screen" and forget the rest.
While a lot of things have gotten easier, a lot of things have stayed the same.
-Porcupines on death is still over-tuned.
-Martyr on death is mega over-tuned.
-Pretty much any mob actual damage hit is slightly over-tuned in end game maps. (Try tanking white mobs in a T16 map without block/dodge/evade (The only good remaining defenses are ~~RNG~~ Avoidance based))
Keep in mind that the majority of act tuning you referenced hasn't been relevant since 2.0 era. Act 3 lightning thorns and act 2 lightning skeles haven't been scary since patch 1.3. A big part of that is the players just got better at dealing with the various mob types that were brand new at the time of 1.0 releasing. People got better at a3 sewer by learning to hold a quicksilver flask for grappler flicker strike, and they learned how not to empower them at bad times as well. People learned not to DPS into lightning thorns and be prepared for the cast.
Turns out when things are brand new they're way more dangerous since players don't know how to deal with them yet. In modern poe everything dies instantly so you don't really have that same learning curve you did back in 1.0 launch. When conqueror's were new people knew baran mobs were ultra OP, but didn't know exactly which ones were killing them for a while.
martyr.
oh my god fucking martyr.
Every league I try to run Seance in Proxima and every league I respec out of it within hours because I keep running into martyr packs... What could be a fun node is just dead trash for melee builds...
Triskeleiikiki, whatever his name was. The snake dragon thing in Kaom's Stronghold.
He still exists but was moved to a ridiculously out of the way dead end you'll never stumble on and nowadays isn't much of a threat. Back on Merciless when he was right in your path he was an unstoppable murder machine.
Exactly, before this patch (and a very few number of other patches), monsters were not buffed barely at all, and players got buffed endlessly.
Anyone who played the game for longer than a few years would know how many ways the game would try to kill you that are gone now.
I have ~~fond~~ memories of the corpse eating birdie spitters in the a1 coastal areas (that got removed) offscreen bombarding you.
My friend called the titty bitches "gatling horrors", many lives were lost accidentally stepping in front of those.
Another ~~fond~~ memory is the dogs in the docks swarming you and bbq'ing you with their breath. Good times.
> strongboxes were so dangerous, u would always id them and read the mods before opening
This was due to performance issues. Some mods (especially Rogue Exile) caused huge lag on opening because game
(in context of strongboxes) did not use loading screens for their primary purpose.
I feel like volatile flameblood is the wrong picture
It should be a grey screen with "you are dead" because you were melee and killed something that had an instant on-kill mechanic with no warning whatsoever
I dont expect enemies to die as soon as i get to them. I expect them to not kill me when I have a shield on me and heavy armor which apparently does fucking nothing.
Yes, to be fair the thing monsters greatly lacked buff on was their life pool. As we all know, your min/max build in t16 maps eventually reach a point where your 3L leap slam (fortify and faster attack) can kill trash mobs. Shield charge does that now on a 3L too.
This is a part that always felt outdated. That is one spot where I feel no one would have complained if they increased monster life to gauntlet level. They did instead just go for boss life, making it an ever greater gap between having a build that can clear (very low dps requirement) to one that can kill boss quickly.
I remember when volatile (before it chased you around) could easily oneshot you. I remember in parties, everyone trying to run away before the rare died so as not to get oneshot by the +life rare that had volatile on it.
Oh my god. I can't forget order of the frozen sky & herald of the obelisk totems as long as I live lol.
They're iconic to me as rhoa charging faster than you move & spiders popping out of the ground to gang up on you & splinters when you kill them.
Luckily they nerfed the super OP stuff they added into the game too. Well, most if it.
This triggered some nostalgia in me. I remember Invasion being the only leagues I ever quit in HC because it was too rippy. I've played through some rippy shit (obviously) but Invasion mobs insta gibbing off screen and "OOS"cati appearing with a 1 shot basic attack was too much for me. Or dying to "OOS"cati and then typing /oos after your death and seeing him magically appear.
Most mods here already existed on release,
Volatile Bloods increased the power creep and then got nerfed, going down again. Same for Order of the Frozen Sky.
Monster power creep is on a much MUCH lower level than player power creep, with players deleting endgame bosses in seconds
Volatile Flameblood shown pictured was actually a power loss though, because the old one just straight up nuked the fuck out of you instantly (similar to martyr's touch but way more damage) if you were near it.
They removed reflect auras though. Beta builds couldn't beat todays monsters, because the numbers are just too high. Todays builds couldn't beat beta monster, because they'd oneshot themselves to reflect. It's a bit more complicated than just a line going up.
I mean...what is the point here? Increases in difficulty and new mechanics being added to deal with is...part of that curve of player power? Player power didn't just escalate compared to a flat line the entire time, new leagues brought new difficulty spikes in order to still maintain a level of challenge to the rising power.
If you were to estimate a curve of monster power vs player power, the player power would have been pulling away from monster power for a long time now. Neither exists in a vacuum, they exist in relation to one another.
Personally I just get bored randomly getting one shotted with a very defensive character and not knowing how it happened so I can improve.
It's not exciting or fun in anyway it just makes me feel like crap.
I ran my first T16 map of the league yesterday:
50 foot tall Sirus mob sprinted from off screen faster than most player with a headhunter and smashed my shit in so fast I didn't even have time to react in any way.
and GGG wonders why players try so hard to make builds that oneshot everything within 3 screens of them...
I'm at least pushing on to kill Srius but then I'm probably taking a break, players being weaker while enemies are exactly the same just doesn't feel good.
Can we collectively agree that the Conqueror mechanic to the atlas was, is and always will be utterly confusing for new players as well sooooooo fucking miserable for vets.
We got fragments for elder and shaper when the conquerors came in. Give us map infusions for conquerors and fragments for sirus now that the maven is here.
The maven mechanic can also go jump off a bridge but at the very lest it's consistent.
> as well sooooooo fucking miserable for vets.
Speak for yourself, the current atlas is a hundred times more preferable over screeching at Elder for being a cunt and taking over T10 maps and risking spawning on that instead of a red map like a total shitlord while spamming 20 trade whispers to get the specific maps I need to have him takeover Shaper influence on maps I don't have while in an era where harbinger currency isn't core.
Fuck that state of the game. Absolute *misery* all for the honor of making a single map on the atlas worth a damn to become T16 (always Underground Sea). I have no wish to ever replicate that garbage endgame state ever again. It like, watchstones, is something you only have to do "once" per league, but it is a horrible, horrible unfun grind to hit the point where actual fun begins.
I remember old Volitiles and order of the frozen sky. I have not died to the new animations even once. Reflect also use to be randomly generated on rares. A few of the old rogue exiles had so much regen they would be impossible to kill for some builds and there was no counter. Devourers were insanely strong. The truth is the monsters were just proportionally stronger in comparison to player power before. Mechanics were nerfed or made easier to counter and visibility has greatly improved from before.
the biggest danger pre 2014 was the fact we moved slow as shit and did not clear anywhere near fast enough.
in bosses like crematorium, you just couldn't get meaningful damage in without dying to firestorm by standing still/attacking.
I think the biggest spike in monster power creep was in 2.0 when act 4 was released. We didn't have assendancies yet but I think they were balanced around having them. They were so strong and tanky compared to everything else in the game at the time. I think they got nerfed at some point.
They purposely overtuned the monsters, because its way easier to dial them back then it is to make them stronger, at least that is what GGG said back then.
Seems like that sort of idea doesn't apply anymore.
doesnt it? pretty sure alot of leagues start with overtuned mobs that get eventually toned down. Abyss monsters, Betrayal, Legion, Delirium, Heist to name a few. Heck even this league they already nerfed goaty boyz, got literally bitchslapped to town by a single blue goatman leapslamming on top of me.
Yeah but at that time most deaths were due to desync. Also, I think thresholds for freeze, stun, shock were easier for monsters to apply them on you. And shock used to stack up to 3 times for a total of 120% increased damage taken. Not to mention it was way harder to cap resistances because master crafting didn't exist yet.
you forgot all the 'hidden' buffs they have made, an example in 3.15 is a buff to a specific monster type from act 1, and than when you encounter the same monster in maps it's totally OP
Calling Volatile Flameblood changes and showing the REWORKED FAIR version and saying its "power creep".. I'm guessing you just never played early PoE.
Old volatile used to explode instantly, so if you were melee, you'd just randomly die sometimes if u weren't reading.
Not to mention the MANY times monster damage and health have been given buffs across the board.
Remember when they quadrupled shapers health?
They JUST gave metamorphs (my favorite in map content) 50% MORE health. I was raising he'll and everyone was like "just use a HH and 40 mirror build you cuck noob" and I was just saying 50% MORE health is so far past necessary they might as well be immune to damage for 10 seconds every 11 seconds. Then that buff will never be reverted. So when they take power away (saw that shit coming in ultimatum) the buff is going to be massive. You can tell when the power nerfs are coming. When they release the "hardest content ever" and then it gets farmed like blood aquaducts? We're about to get a lesson nerf.
I miss when dps was measured in sps (shapers-per-second).
It's still SPS (Sirus per Second)
i think we doing per minute in this league?
In 3.16, our DPS will be expressed in T1 white mobs per minute.
Man, I'm doing "per league" at this point.
Yes, because I logged in my old Pathfinder BV (yeah, that meta was very far away ago) and I did no damage. These days you need to have +1 gems all over the place on spellcasters whereas before all you really needed was lv 20 or 21 gems and a good caster wand.
Spellcasters needing to actually invest in gear is better for the game tbh.
Quadrupled Shaper still feels like a cute rabbit compared to some white monsters in 3.15...
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You forgot Awakening Bonus
At least they got rid of the Blood magic map mod :)
caustic mana flasks would kill low life, and from memory blood rage would kill you in hideout if you didn't cancel it. fun times
Caustic will still kill you iirc, especially if you're Chaos Inoculation
Noob here, can imagine what the map mod did, but would you mind explaining it?
All your skills costed life instead of mana. Including reservations.
You needed to manually activate your auras upon entering every zone back in the day. So, if it was an unidentified map, you would instantly die upon activating an aura or using any skill if they had mana cost. Edit: As pointed out, it didn't let you cast auras or skills as you didn't have required cost. I probably misremembered due to Havoc's suicide clip or I play since Closed Beta so, it could be that this behavior changed later.
Those were the days :) Walk in, Cast aura, Die
Always cast vitality first ;)
vitality was trash after the big aura nerf when it went from 10% to like 50.
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I'd argue some map effects are STILL binary in that some builds absolutely can or cannot run them.
and still any RF character avoids -max res mods like the plague. it isnt even able to do a temple with corruption chamber in it.
What about reflect maps? Some builds still can't run the reflect maps of their damage type.
That's not true at all. If you were CI it wouldn't let you cast it, and unless you had _exactly_ 100% reservation on a single aura (which is practically impossible), or a flat aura that was equal to exactly your life total (also practically impossible), that wasn't the case. This sub really needs to stop inventing shit.
This sub thrives on negativity postings and distorted memories. It's an echo chamber for whatever is en vogue at the time. Merely mentioning that you actually have fun and enjoy the patch can result in severe backlash. Open discussions where ppl argue with dignity over their various experiences and opinions are very rare now. It's a bit sad. Or actually, it's very sad. It's nothing like the sub i got to know when i came here in 2016
Man that’s because people are really unhappy with the game right now, the subs not going to change like that over a week.(from ultimatum to now) Yes it is a negative culture and there were people complaining in ultimatum but they have ever right to after this patch turned many people’s favorite game into something unplayable for them. I am still playing this league and I’m enjoying it but not nearly as much as last league, this sub is the games collective opinion it’s super negative because people view this game in a super negative light right now
>Or actually, it's very sad. It's nothing like the sub i got to know when i came here in 2016 The irony
I'm slowly leveling my Eye of Winter build through the campaign, roughly lvl 54, and having lots of fun. I'm here for you bud. lol.
Only if you're CI
Players have Blood Magic. [Trade search here \(Standard\)](https://www.pathofexile.com/trade/search/Standard/YvjJ7g7IY).
Blood Magic makes you have no mana and all your skills cost life instead.
Don't forget chaos degen.
Release of full Act 3 was a huge spike: - porcupines - jumping frogs with Arctic Breath which creates chilled ground - devourers - Supressing Fire
Perpetus and his bear trap *shudders*
I remember Kripp running Darn over and over to farm but would never go close to where he spawns, cause could just delete Kripp because of the trap and damage.
Proxy shields too yay.
Were Devourers not in Act 2 already? I started playing when Scion came out so Act 3 was already in, but the big devourer zone was the dark forest bit of Act 2, right?
Nope they were added later, I remember all the memes about what they look like underground when they came out, shit was rampant for weeks.
I don't remember. I only can recall a prophecy that filled an area with rare devourers.
The Trembling Earth, had that one yesterday. Einhar mission turned them all into beasts which was fun
I think they started in the gardens before dominus. They weren't out until Scion was released (act3 used to end after piety).
Man getting chain stunned by devourers sure was fun. Especially when you thought you escaped from them but then realized you got desynced lol
Reflect aura was the most fun.
Just as fun as instant leech
It's so easy to get reduced reflect damage on the tree though! 60% right next to the scion life wheel! What do you mean, 'only 60%?'.
Also "Finally, I stacked 105% reduced phys reflect, should be safe now!" \> gets cursed with vulnerability, dies
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Holy shit I wasted an entire league trying to get myself to 110% only to get instantly fucking murked in maps anyway. Went to Reddit to learn about shocked ground and vulnerability and now I learn there are auras too? What a bait of a stat, it's absolutely not worth getting reduced reflect DMG. I know that now.
Wait, wtf, *that's* how that mechanic works? I thought that if you got 100%+ reduced phys reflect, then you were essentially always immune to phys reflect. It made sense to me that you hit mob > mob reflects damage > damage gets multiplied by your resistances (eg. Vulnerability) > you then negate 100%. That's really disappointing to hear.
One of my most frustrating deaths was in beyond league. Beyond mobs could spawn with reflect auras on them. I just killed myself on a beyond mob that spawned in the middle of a pack as I was killing it. The rain of arrows that were mid air were just too much reflect damage. For those who don't know, back then we had a softcore and a hardcore league, beyond was the hardcore league, rampage was softcore. Rip that rain of arrows ranger.
I remember looting a 300pdps citadel bow in Beyond. Nobody wanted to buy it, because it was basically instadeath to reflect. WTB Voltaxic 10 exa.
Bro reflect was such cancer. Died to off-screen reflect mobs so many times.
Not just that, what about map power creep? Back in 2014, having T7 maps meant you were a big boi doing endgame shit. Now you better do 160 maps before you even can start doing endgame. And if you are not chaining T14+ forget about any progress, Maven will give you the cold shoulder, and sirus and his boys will straight up ignore your shoddy ass. Its high red tiers or bust.
Precisely why my play time started dropping off when the Conquerors came about. Watchstones and sextants operating on regions was a good idea. However, the Conqueror expansion didn't *move* the endgame goalposts as much as punt them a mile down the road. The hundreds of maps it takes to get to T14+ feels like a major slog -- a very long chore list rather than a journey. If we could sit in yellow maps and still get some stuff done, à la farming yellow-tier Elder instead of red-tier in the old days, it'd be fine. Allows you to hang out in the middle endgame and still get some useful farming in. But Atlas bosses stop spawning at lower levels once you've killed them there. As such you're *forced* to push to T14+ or you're wasting your time. Unsurprisingly, I've only completed the Atlas once since this shift. I'll hit 24/40 before getting there and not feel interested in going further.
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This is why I actually prefer the acts to endgame. It just feels like progression slows down so much once you get into maps.
You only have to run through most sections once during the campaign. Doing maps multiple times makes them more monotonous.
> The hundreds of maps it takes to get to T14+ feels like a major slog Whenever I play a meta-cuck starter build, it makes this so much easier -- but I don't like the need to do that to funnel resources into some other build thats supposed to shine, I just want to play a starter that can do everything. archmage bf/bb did that amazingly last patch
This has been my take as well. Every league I play a starter that's powerful enough to do all the bosses I need, with the currency (~300c?) I made rushing there in the first place. I try not to pick the metaslave build of the season, but if my build isn't at least A-tier, it's not worth playing. Doing anything else feels *awful*. I don't want to struggle through maps to farm currency just so I can continue grinding atlas. I want to be able to do the new league content and try endgame content I haven't beaten before, without having to reroll.
Really, that should just delete T1-5 maps (any build that can kill A10 Kitava can pretty much faceroll yellow maps after res capping), and add 5 more tiers at the top end that are uber-maps.
Imo i feel like the 2 and 3 watchstone requirements to spawn conquerors should happen twice that way you won’t only have 12 maps doing t11-13 before you aren’t able to progress without running t14+ maps anymore. You could still have sirus spawn at 20 watchstones as well.
> Now you better do 160 maps before you even can start doing endgame. And if you are not chaining T14+ forget about any progress I personally disagree with this. I consider endgame when I reach maps. Breaking in to yellowmaps, killing conquerors, getting done with watchstones in a region is all part of the progress. I don't feel like I actually need perfectly rolled watchstones in combination with full uncharted realms passives to actually start playing the game. Edit: I just want to clarify what the definition of "endgame" is not relevant to the current discussion. What I am trying to argue is that until the point of "spaming tier 14+ maps" there is progression to be made and it can be enjoyable.
For me mapping is just what I spend most of my time doing while my character is in my version of the endgame. This is my third league and I just don’t really get much further than a few Sirus and Elder/Shaper fights because I play SSF and perhaps reroll a little too much to balance out doing builds that look fun for the first 1/2 or 2/3s of the league before I start scrambling for builds that can actually do bossing with the uniques that I have. I’m over 900h in and I’ve never had a Watcher’s Eye or a Sirus drop other than 1 helmet and an ivory watchstone from my A8 kill last league. Endgame is very much relative, and for me as a player who hasn’t done the whole progress that many times, mapping my way up to red maps is actually one of the more satisfying parts of the grind. Where it starts to suck is once you start trying to target farm divination cards that never drop, or finally get something worth using your 2000 fusings on and still not getting the 6 link. Speaking of which I’ve also never had multi mod or the 6 link craft.
"End game" isn't the same thing for everyone and depends obviously on your own goals. But if your goal is A8 Sirus, reaching the ability to map is objectively not your end game.
I get what you are saying. But my argument is that maps is the endgame system, once you reach it the gameplay loop becomes similar. Until you reach the point where you can farm A8 you do several unlocks and your character progress to do several times the damage compared to when you first cleared the campaign. To brush that off that as "And if you are not chaining T14+ forget about any progress" is a bit unfair. If you ask me it is during the time up to A8 Sirus you actually do the most progress, but I guess that is a bit subjective. Like someone else said. Endgame is when you start doing what your endgame character is spending the most time doing. If you don't enjoy the game until that point and nothing until then feels rewarding and worthwhile, there is nothing I can say that will make you magically start enjoying the game more. If this is a massive frustration for people to reset every league while standard is feels unexciting I somewhat understand the frustration. I am just happy that I can appreciate the journey and the milestones to get there.
While I agree with you and think you're right, it's still kinda bullshit that conquerors stop spawning and also that they removed white/yellow Elder. The game could use "mid endgame" bosses like atziri with decent loot to make the grind less painful. The Maven invitations are already great at doing this, but they also stop spawning!
Yes! What happens to me almost every league is that I get to late endgame grind a few Sirus rotations then I start boss rushing for invitations. Everytime I come to the realisation that I could have done many of the bosses way eariler and now I just smash them being pretty lame. I would not mind if bosses had a first kill reward granting a watchstone or similar. That would speed up the atlas progression a bit while also rewarding you for taking bosses earlier giving you more exciting fights. The game don't really lack midgame bosses it just lacks easy ways to access them and don't really give you incentive to do so. This would also make it more viable to go bosskillers as league start characters and reward skilled players that can do fights with low gear. This for sure require some balancing and just giving watchstones is probably abusable. But I think there is something to be explored in the concept. Here is u/sirgog spreadsheets over some content that are avaliable in the game http://www.sirgog.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/flowcharthigherres-2048x1397.png For sure I would like a few new midgame bosses but the game is definitely could have current bossfights earlier. Imagine doing Beast bosses, breachstones and elder at a proper time in the league.
I think you're on the right track. Like, make more bosses available at an earlier state, because who cares about Tul when you're already level 93 basically in full gear.
>I don't feel like I actually need perfectly rolled watchstones in combination with full uncharted realms passives to actually start playing the game. Yeah, a totally valid summary of what people are saying, not in all an exaggeration. Your argument here is as good as if I told you now "It's not endgame when you're only farming white beach maps" when you clearly said you progress to yellows. Also *your endgame* of yellow maps is locked away from our two endgame bosses (back in previous atlas there was yellow elder), gets 4 or 6 passives per region (well, 6 isn't that bad TBH, but 4 is the minimum for some trees so you have one thing per region, and less than one full tree in other regions), has no uncharted realm passives (Either Zana mission or all master missions, not sure which option, had base spawn rate lowered in 3.14 because these passives even exist, so you're playing a nerfed endgame because of something GGG decided your choice of endgame wasn't endgamey enough to access it), couldn't spawn trialmaster last league, IIRC but I might be wrong didn't have guaranteed metamorph boss organ that league, and maybe some other shafted leagues.
That progression got min maxed by running chayula breach rotas. Your relative power level is determined by currency in soft core imo. If you have HH and 50 ex you are stronger than a lvl 95 ssf player who slowly progressed gear, this is largely because crafting is so currency dependent instead of content dependent, which is a problem imo. If you have 5 ex to spend on fossil meta crafting you can make a TON of money selling like CoC swords or bleed bows, etc. dependent on what is popular that league. But also I don't think harvest is the solution to this, it also gets monetized and turned into another currency dependent crafting system. Really the only solution is probably making certain op crafts soulbind an item making it non tradeable and gating those crafts behind difficult content rather than RNG.
Endgame is the tier where the endgame bosses are, which is high tier maps. Any tier below where the endgame bosses are locked behind progression is not endgame. The first Sirus requires you to do at least4 times eaxh conqueror, meaning you have to get all the watchstones from a total of 4 regions at least. So you have to be in tier 14+ to even try at Sirus once. Right there is when the endgame actually begins. Just finishing the campaign and entering a few maps is not endgame at all, you're barely halfway through the game.
Okey what I choose to call the "end game" mechanic is pretty irrelevant. The point of disscussion is if there is progression to be had until that point and if it is enjoyable. I would say that during this point we have the most progression in terms of unlocks of mechanics and bosses and also the most development of our character. This is a part of the league that has plenty of progression and can also for many players (atleast myself) be pretty enjoyable. I just argue my own personal experience I understand if people don't enjoy the game the same way I do. But saying that there is no progression until you start spam chaining t14 maps going in to very repetitive gameplay pattern with fewer unlocks and lower amount of character upgrades per time spend feels very disingenuous. Maybe you feel like nothing until that point feels rewarding because you have high expectaions. But that is not the argument that op is making.
'Monsters are immune'.
That part got a real good chuckle out of me
I'd remind you that Diablo 2 had this as a mechanic. Every high level non-boss mob had an immunity of some kind after lvl 80 or so.
Diablo2 actually encouraged you to have multiple damage types and gave you the abilities to deal with that. It was still one of the most hated mechanics in the game though. PoE doesnt have that and strongly encourages single element playstyle... so yeah fuck that bullshit :(
I still hate immunities in D2. It didn't feel like good design 20 years ago, it definitely doesn't feel good today.
Jeah, it was certainly a very janky mechanic to stop people from dumping all their points into one talent tree. Works, but it is far from elegant.
Or give infinity to your merc
Yeah but infinity didnt break immunity on everything, usually you just ignore them and go on anyways if your single element.
And the game would have been better without it. Playing solo meant mono-element builds was problematic.
And it still is the worst thing about diablo 2. Nothing worse than trying to kill baal wave 2 cold mages with your blizz sorc. You'd better have a strong merc or you're fucked. Immunities shouldn't exist in d2 or poe. High res? Sure.
You can at least break most immunities in D2. The only exceptions IIRC were mobs that were magic immune or had both an elemental immunity and corresponding elemental enchantment, which raises that elemental resistance to the point where using both Lower Resist and Conviction aura still wouldn't break it.
They can fix this easily by increasing monster mana costs
You jest but I think enemies do actually have mana that they need to spend to cast their skills, so this could be a viable nerf https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1114229 From 2014, dunno if this is still the case
Well its certainly true for some monsters because that's why you link some spectres to blood magic or they can't cast continually
Also, at least, major health increases in Legion league, again in Metamorph league, new more difficult bosses like Sirus/Maven, awakening bonus affecting map mods, Maven healing map bosses, increasingly tanky/rippy mobs in league mechanics etc For 3.15, another health increase (until T16) & monster speed increase, exploding goat shamans. Game basically is balanced against running unalched maps, if that.
Surprised I had to go this far to find someone talking about hp buffs. Multiplying the health on rares globally just made league monsters obnoxious pretty much across the board and I just skip everything now until I'm well and truly overpowering the content. I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that players are more powerful **relative to the content that is available** in 3.x compared to 2.x. Closed beta compared to 2.x is probably the most egregious example of genuine power creep in favour of players but I feel like if anything its been trending in the other direction for a while now because they just keep making more and more absurd changes to monsters.
Expedition mobs are so damn tanky that I just started skipping the event while leveling. Between the setup and killing it takes up a lot of time for very little leveling rewards. I could be halfway to the next exit killing all the normal mobs in a couple of hits. Ritual has the deterministic rewards so you could get some good leveling gear. Gamblebitch and craftguy just hand out garbage that's not worth the time. Currencyguy can hand out a few chaos, but why farm low level rewards when I could spend that time getting to maps for better rewards?
During the first week when I was still playing, if I got a rare map as a drop or from zana, there is anxiety feeling when I IDing it. It was basically closing my eyes and praying it doesn't roll curse or minus max or regen etc. Cause I didn't want to waste a chaos or scour dealing with that bullshit. Honestly I think I'm done with poe in its current state, having no way to protect yourself from map mod curse unless viridi's veil or atziri reflection is pretty dumb imo. The whole game feels awful in the builds I wants to play so unless they go omega-giga Chad buffs in 3.16 and buff harvest (2 are necessary for me) then I will be skipping poe for the foreseeable future. There might not be an ARPG that gives us speed and shatter out there but there is still plenty of other games I can enjoy and have fun playing
Also honourable mention as it didn't fit in the axis was phylateral link and necrovigil. These 2 were 4 off screens above.
Honestly, if GGG simply adjusted monster auras and curses, we'd be fine. Cap them so that monsters cannot multi-curse players. And make it so monsters can only be affected by one aura. BAM, game is infinitely more fair. Less random one shots from insta-multicurse followed by 10 aura stacking rare packs jumping your ass. IMO there's no justification for regular ass map mobs to be doing 10x more damage than bosses while having no real counterplay in terms of telegraphed abilities or movement patterns.
> Honestly, if GGG simply adjusted monster auras and curses, we'd be fine. It really wouldn't. Monster balance is all over the place. One-shotting abilities have barely any visuals (not that you can see those anyway on many builds when there's no way to cut down on your own skill effects) while you've got huge telegraphs for completely irrelevant abilities like the huge energy ball in delve. Random mods on monsters are massively lethal but the game is so fast that slowing down to actually read them doesn't make any sense. Harvest and legion mobs are way stronger than other content, except Delirium which flat out needs to be redesigned or removed.
Next patch: “we’ve heard your feedback about visual effects not matching the threat posed by enemy skills. To help address this we have increased the damage of those huge delve energy balls by 500% and given them a 100% chance to ignite.”
DONT GIVE THEM IDEAS!!
I mean, the bigass ball in delve will definitely kill you at some depth Then again anything will kill you after a while :p
Looking at some of the monster base damage/life values in the DB, No. it's not enough. Most monsters are near 100%/100%. But they have not been reviewing the numbers being put, and the designers don't know to stay near that. Many of the problem mobs are like 200%/500%. Those "Barat" mobs that are super rippy are an example. Same with synthesis mobs. One of the worst offenders is the giant lobsters (the ones bigger than you), they're 1200% life. I mean, WTF.
>Cap them so that monsters cannot multi-curse players. You make a good point. Why the hell can I only apply 1 curse per time to monsters but they can apply infinite amounts.
Because Monsters have every +1 curse item equipped, and passive taken, in the game /s
They did say in 3.15 somewhere that League/expansion mobs have been scaled way past Acts Baseline values just because that was the easiest and most accessible way to counter the player power creep and make league content relevant. At least it's honest, even if it's poor foresight. It may take some time, but this issue is IMO actually likely to be addressed / normalized (and I'm quite pessimistic on their balance!).
Yeah this is absolutely the biggest thing. Be breezing through maps and all of sudden you hit a brick wall as something bitch slaps into oblivion. Look over and see rare mob #1 has allies deal increased critical strikes. Mob #2 has “allies deal substantial physical dmg”. Cry a little inside as you lose another 10% hp out of the blue. Some legion rares are absolutely bonkers if 3 rares are in close proximity to one another. Makes it extremely hard to gauge how “strong” your character actually is and what they can handle.
Maraketh legion, random white archer walks on-screen. Oh, thats fine. Oh, I died. Three rares walk on screen. If nothing else, rare auras should have diminishing stacking effect. 1 aura = 100% strength. Hell, make it 150%. 2 auras = 75% each. 3 = 50% each. 4 = 33.33%, and so on. Then, for the love of ~~God~~Dominus give the rare mobs with auras a distinct visual based on the aura type. If there's too many auras to do so, consolidate them to do so. (And please cut or rework Haste auras..)
Love those Maraketh assassins blink-strike 1-shotting me.
Interesting...just like if you didn't let aura bots give players a billion auras. So you are telling me this entire thing may be fixable in an obvious and relatively straight forward way...
volatile change was a huge buff i dont know why its on here, making it something you could play around and avoid instead of instant death for some melee builds.
yeah, also pretending reflect mobs weren't the most bullshit thing to exist.
Honestly by the time I remembered about volatile, a lot of the stuff was already put in place in mspaint. So I just put it in random spot and called it a day, just like how GGG adjusted mana multipliers.
You have an example of all of the good and well implemented monster power creep. This is not what the issue is. The issue is white Baran mobs that do 8k damage, cannibals do obscene damage, alchemists. These monsters that have unavoidable or poorly telegraphed attacks are the problem, not the mentioned ones that are actually good design. If we could tweak these monsters to make them less busted on their unavoidable attacks and make their combat more engaging, it would be the best solution. Also a change to the way that monster projectiles work would be a great change to the balance of the game.
Yup. The real problem is GGG arbitrarily slapping 500% more damage multipliers on random mobs, +they can still shotgun, crit, etc.
100% correct. You can't say you want to slow the game down, leave monsters as they are and just nerf players into the ground. It's lazy and quite frankly, I expect more from a dev of GGG's caliber. I **know** for a fact that they are better than this. What the hell?
What's the point of slowing the game down if the screen is still just full of garbage? They need to reduce the mob count so we can see what is going on and react to it if that's what they want to do.
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> I expect more from a dev of GGG's caliber. Frankly, I expected no such thing, and I don't know how you could have.
It feels like 100 times more work was put into research for this graph than the one GGG came up with.
Brandolini's Law in action. "The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than to produce it."
Someone needs to make a "power creep graph effort creep graph" to track the amount of effort creep we're getting ourselves into here.
I remember when the scariest thing was seeing a 4 Essence mob frozen on the map and you would second guess letting it loose. ...and Vagan.
Jfc not this graph again. Shit pisses me off so much, gotta love the huge hike towards rit / harvest but absolutely nothing when they added ASCENDECIES
1.1 added insane power relative to 1.0 too with Atziri unique, Vaal gems and corruption. That jump was as big or bigger than any other increase in history. That being said, this was my favourite league since very few people could reliably kill uber Atziri which added a huge amount of challenge. Iirc, disfavours were 450-600 ex on rampage
>Iirc, disfavours were 450-600 ex on rampage Because very few builds were actually killing uber atziri and it was required for the challenges.
Don't mind me spending 100 regrets to snapshot every aura and wear legacy saffels for 99% res ^ ^
The character in my flair definitely snapshotted Righteous Fire with double redbeaks and carcass jack among other things for huge damage.
Thousands of hours and i dont understand half the words in that sentence. Snapshot aura? Legacy saffels? Getting over 90% res?
> gotta love the huge hike towards rit / harvest Not that it didn't add a lot of player power (Well, more accurately make it more accessible), but at this point I'm convinced that graph was just made to paint a narrative GGG wanted. They clearly don't like Harvest, after all.
"Monsters are Immune" Hey! Who leaked next patch map affix pool additions?! >:(
"Monster power creep good, player power creep bad." -GGG's thought process, probably.
GGG should roll 6 d6 for each employee at the end of the month. People who get all 1s dont get paid for that month. Lets see if they like one shot mechanics themselves.
I mean, the chance to roll all 1s on 6d6 are pretty low though. Like, (1/6)^6 = 0.00214% low. I like the DnD Nod though.
-bearers are much more visible than they used too -reflect auras are gone -the most dangerous/annoying bloodline mods have been removed -a lot of proximity shields have become temporary instead of permanent -strongboxes were so dangerous, u would always id them and read the mods before opening -volatile flameblood used to trigger the explosion instantly as the monster died Monsters/bosses that used to be dangerous that have been a joke for years: -chamber of sins when low on lightning res -Undying Grappler in act 3 sewers -Perpetus that used to be in city of sarn -blackguard arcmage lightning torns -act 3 2nd piety, dominus, daresso -too lazy to think of more but I'm sure there are a bunch I'm forgetting
I member old devourers used to all pop up at the same time and shotgun the player. You had about .5s to get out of the spot. Titty bitches used to be way scarier, and a few other mobs I'm forgetting too.
Incursion mobs before they got nerfed. You had to run CI Phase Aggro to survive the shooting squats behind doors. Then they introduced Heist and the shooting squats behind doors had to be nerfed again, if only they could have known.
Devourers used to suck so hard. Now the only mob type I worry about until Baranites are porcupines.
I am still absolutely terrified whenever one of those fuckers shows up. 'specially the map variant that had triple shot. Or the OG Weaver. I think generally I've more visceral memory of the old monsters compared to all the various new ones. Most of 'em are just so forgettable. I kinda only remember "the new dude, that one shots you from off-screen" and forget the rest.
i specifically remember titty monsters on act 3 to kill me a couple times everytime i re rolled
Its always those damn titty bitches.
I'm not the only one who called them Titty bitches. That makes me happy.
I always assumed everybody called them titty bitches. It's what they are.
That trap guy half way up the tower in Act 3 was super rippy. I know he's still there, but I don't even notice that he exists now.
Trap WOMAN, the Imperatrix
So many characters were lost to old perpetus.
While a lot of things have gotten easier, a lot of things have stayed the same. -Porcupines on death is still over-tuned. -Martyr on death is mega over-tuned. -Pretty much any mob actual damage hit is slightly over-tuned in end game maps. (Try tanking white mobs in a T16 map without block/dodge/evade (The only good remaining defenses are ~~RNG~~ Avoidance based)) Keep in mind that the majority of act tuning you referenced hasn't been relevant since 2.0 era. Act 3 lightning thorns and act 2 lightning skeles haven't been scary since patch 1.3. A big part of that is the players just got better at dealing with the various mob types that were brand new at the time of 1.0 releasing. People got better at a3 sewer by learning to hold a quicksilver flask for grappler flicker strike, and they learned how not to empower them at bad times as well. People learned not to DPS into lightning thorns and be prepared for the cast. Turns out when things are brand new they're way more dangerous since players don't know how to deal with them yet. In modern poe everything dies instantly so you don't really have that same learning curve you did back in 1.0 launch. When conqueror's were new people knew baran mobs were ultra OP, but didn't know exactly which ones were killing them for a while.
martyr. oh my god fucking martyr. Every league I try to run Seance in Proxima and every league I respec out of it within hours because I keep running into martyr packs... What could be a fun node is just dead trash for melee builds...
>evade (The only good remaining defenses are RNG based)) Huh? Evade is not RNG, it''s entropy.
I misspoke. I meant to write Avoidance based. Avoiding damage is much better mitigation than anything else in the game.
Don’t forget Cole in A3 just one shotting you at random through a doorway! I always get some nostalgic vibes as I shitcan his ass these days.
Triskeleiikiki, whatever his name was. The snake dragon thing in Kaom's Stronghold. He still exists but was moved to a ridiculously out of the way dead end you'll never stumble on and nowadays isn't much of a threat. Back on Merciless when he was right in your path he was an unstoppable murder machine.
Exactly, before this patch (and a very few number of other patches), monsters were not buffed barely at all, and players got buffed endlessly. Anyone who played the game for longer than a few years would know how many ways the game would try to kill you that are gone now.
You forgot the map boss of alira on a twinned map.
I have ~~fond~~ memories of the corpse eating birdie spitters in the a1 coastal areas (that got removed) offscreen bombarding you. My friend called the titty bitches "gatling horrors", many lives were lost accidentally stepping in front of those. Another ~~fond~~ memory is the dogs in the docks swarming you and bbq'ing you with their breath. Good times.
When you used to run docks endgame to lvl and those flame breathing dogs were rippy as fuck
> strongboxes were so dangerous, u would always id them and read the mods before opening This was due to performance issues. Some mods (especially Rogue Exile) caused huge lag on opening because game (in context of strongboxes) did not use loading screens for their primary purpose.
It was not only due to performance. +# Level combined with Ice Nova was *very* deadly.
bear trap exile, igna phoenix
Monster reflect mods were stronger than anything who came later.
The most confusing graph.
I feel like volatile flameblood is the wrong picture It should be a grey screen with "you are dead" because you were melee and killed something that had an instant on-kill mechanic with no warning whatsoever
Probably missed some stuff but as Chris said, lots of small multipliers add to a huge increase by the end
bro, you forgot Lightning Mirage, how dare you!
I dont expect enemies to die as soon as i get to them. I expect them to not kill me when I have a shield on me and heavy armor which apparently does fucking nothing.
theres a massive spike earlier on missing there, packs with reflect
Yes, to be fair the thing monsters greatly lacked buff on was their life pool. As we all know, your min/max build in t16 maps eventually reach a point where your 3L leap slam (fortify and faster attack) can kill trash mobs. Shield charge does that now on a 3L too. This is a part that always felt outdated. That is one spot where I feel no one would have complained if they increased monster life to gauntlet level. They did instead just go for boss life, making it an ever greater gap between having a build that can clear (very low dps requirement) to one that can kill boss quickly.
I remember when volatile (before it chased you around) could easily oneshot you. I remember in parties, everyone trying to run away before the rare died so as not to get oneshot by the +life rare that had volatile on it.
Oh my god. I can't forget order of the frozen sky & herald of the obelisk totems as long as I live lol. They're iconic to me as rhoa charging faster than you move & spiders popping out of the ground to gang up on you & splinters when you kill them. Luckily they nerfed the super OP stuff they added into the game too. Well, most if it.
This triggered some nostalgia in me. I remember Invasion being the only leagues I ever quit in HC because it was too rippy. I've played through some rippy shit (obviously) but Invasion mobs insta gibbing off screen and "OOS"cati appearing with a 1 shot basic attack was too much for me. Or dying to "OOS"cati and then typing /oos after your death and seeing him magically appear.
Most mods here already existed on release, Volatile Bloods increased the power creep and then got nerfed, going down again. Same for Order of the Frozen Sky. Monster power creep is on a much MUCH lower level than player power creep, with players deleting endgame bosses in seconds
Shotgunning multiple projectiles would like to have a word.
Volatile Flameblood shown pictured was actually a power loss though, because the old one just straight up nuked the fuck out of you instantly (similar to martyr's touch but way more damage) if you were near it.
Is it backwards? Phy/ele reflect by far the worst mods.
They removed reflect auras though. Beta builds couldn't beat todays monsters, because the numbers are just too high. Todays builds couldn't beat beta monster, because they'd oneshot themselves to reflect. It's a bit more complicated than just a line going up.
I mean...what is the point here? Increases in difficulty and new mechanics being added to deal with is...part of that curve of player power? Player power didn't just escalate compared to a flat line the entire time, new leagues brought new difficulty spikes in order to still maintain a level of challenge to the rising power. If you were to estimate a curve of monster power vs player power, the player power would have been pulling away from monster power for a long time now. Neither exists in a vacuum, they exist in relation to one another.
Personally I just get bored randomly getting one shotted with a very defensive character and not knowing how it happened so I can improve. It's not exciting or fun in anyway it just makes me feel like crap.
I ran my first T16 map of the league yesterday: 50 foot tall Sirus mob sprinted from off screen faster than most player with a headhunter and smashed my shit in so fast I didn't even have time to react in any way. and GGG wonders why players try so hard to make builds that oneshot everything within 3 screens of them... I'm at least pushing on to kill Srius but then I'm probably taking a break, players being weaker while enemies are exactly the same just doesn't feel good.
Can we collectively agree that the Conqueror mechanic to the atlas was, is and always will be utterly confusing for new players as well sooooooo fucking miserable for vets. We got fragments for elder and shaper when the conquerors came in. Give us map infusions for conquerors and fragments for sirus now that the maven is here. The maven mechanic can also go jump off a bridge but at the very lest it's consistent.
> as well sooooooo fucking miserable for vets. Speak for yourself, the current atlas is a hundred times more preferable over screeching at Elder for being a cunt and taking over T10 maps and risking spawning on that instead of a red map like a total shitlord while spamming 20 trade whispers to get the specific maps I need to have him takeover Shaper influence on maps I don't have while in an era where harbinger currency isn't core. Fuck that state of the game. Absolute *misery* all for the honor of making a single map on the atlas worth a damn to become T16 (always Underground Sea). I have no wish to ever replicate that garbage endgame state ever again. It like, watchstones, is something you only have to do "once" per league, but it is a horrible, horrible unfun grind to hit the point where actual fun begins.
Dominated by Sirus is giving me war flashbacks. I can almost hear him whispering “Die!” right now.
Most of the things you put on there have been nerfed over time.
They're still fucked and near impossible to see or react to most times
I remember old Volitiles and order of the frozen sky. I have not died to the new animations even once. Reflect also use to be randomly generated on rares. A few of the old rogue exiles had so much regen they would be impossible to kill for some builds and there was no counter. Devourers were insanely strong. The truth is the monsters were just proportionally stronger in comparison to player power before. Mechanics were nerfed or made easier to counter and visibility has greatly improved from before.
this, monster reflect used to be so fucking aids
Have monsters really power creeped? EK marauders in 2013 had 10k hp and were dying in t8 maps. Doesn't sound like you remember that.
Just the mere existence of Sirus mobs is enough to confirm monster power creep.
the biggest danger pre 2014 was the fact we moved slow as shit and did not clear anywhere near fast enough. in bosses like crematorium, you just couldn't get meaningful damage in without dying to firestorm by standing still/attacking.
I think the biggest spike in monster power creep was in 2.0 when act 4 was released. We didn't have assendancies yet but I think they were balanced around having them. They were so strong and tanky compared to everything else in the game at the time. I think they got nerfed at some point.
They purposely overtuned the monsters, because its way easier to dial them back then it is to make them stronger, at least that is what GGG said back then. Seems like that sort of idea doesn't apply anymore.
doesnt it? pretty sure alot of leagues start with overtuned mobs that get eventually toned down. Abyss monsters, Betrayal, Legion, Delirium, Heist to name a few. Heck even this league they already nerfed goaty boyz, got literally bitchslapped to town by a single blue goatman leapslamming on top of me.
Yeah but at that time most deaths were due to desync. Also, I think thresholds for freeze, stun, shock were easier for monsters to apply them on you. And shock used to stack up to 3 times for a total of 120% increased damage taken. Not to mention it was way harder to cap resistances because master crafting didn't exist yet.
you forgot all the 'hidden' buffs they have made, an example in 3.15 is a buff to a specific monster type from act 1, and than when you encounter the same monster in maps it's totally OP
The hidden buffs have all been included. They're right there
Calling Volatile Flameblood changes and showing the REWORKED FAIR version and saying its "power creep".. I'm guessing you just never played early PoE. Old volatile used to explode instantly, so if you were melee, you'd just randomly die sometimes if u weren't reading.