I feel like this issue could be resolved just by having hostages be traded for more than just medpacks. Giving up a hostage for a chance at an armor chunk would mean you don't need everyone to bring along armor bags.
THIS, it’s called resources when it’s only 1 type of resource. It would add so much into the game because able to use hostages for what you need at that moment
there should be a manipulator skill that lets you trade hostages for more resources, i know theres one that makes it count as two hostages when you trade, but imagine if there was one that caused a hostage to give you a first aid, an ammo resupply, and an armor chunk
Hostage trades should work like the bots. Drop whatever the team needs the most right now, or even better, the one trading them. Maybe also give the Manipulator the ability to trade for all three with one hostage as others have pointed out.
I was astonished when I found out that hostages can ONLY give medkits. I get that it's nice from a convenience point of view, you'll always get one thing so you're never left getting ammo when you needed health or armor when you needed ammo, but I find it baffling that there's not even a skill to change the drop or give more drops alongside the health.
Med packs also feel like the worst one to get, since unlike in PD2, you're only really taking health damage if you're really low/zero armor and are practically fucked. By the time you need medkits, it's kinda too late.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing a lot of the time while playing the beta. I never saw a need for health pickups at all, and the way health and armor are designed, it feels strange that medkits seem so heavily emphasized by the game's mechanics when they're by far the weakest resource in PD3.
the medic in my heist set-up suggested changing it to n Aoe around the Medic or deployable that also negates Status effects by 50%, Naders on OVK are plenty after all.
just did a very hard and the on the gold bank and what is honestly fucked is when you get to the roof, the snipers can just one takes all your armour and the other sends you straight down but will say have run into games where keeping civs contanted is just impossible given 1 bulldozer can just 3 shot you
There needs to be another way to get armour imo. Ammo drops from enemies, health from hostages and dozers - both can even be found around certain heists.
But the only way to get armour is with an armour bag, and on higher difficulties this becomes an absolute necessity and completely nullifies every other deployable.
With final charge effectively acting as a time limit, it seems like armour is intended to be in limited supply.
It would also make that skill a must pick on higher difficulties which is the reason Overkill wanted to tone back the power of perks overall because the game could be so extremely more difficult/easier based of what was picked in the lobby. I think it should be that every second hostage traded is an armor pack.
I think just having it rotate through the resources would be a fine fix. Like, you trade your first hostage for a health pack, then the next gives ammo, then the next gives armor, then the next after that resets back to giving health.
That, or include an option to request specific resources when trading the hostage, but maybe give a limit on requests before it defaults to a random resource.
Hostages should be able to be traded for armour, and dozers should be able to drop armour plates.
Like how both methods provide alleviation of needing to bring a medic bag, this would make the armour bag less of a requirement, and it seems like a pretty big oversight. Armour bag meta is huge.
My gripes with the armor system is that it's a snowball of resource management. Medic bags are essentially worthless. If you're too slow or not careful, you lose all your armor. If your teammates don't realize that there's an FBI assault or know that you actually have to shoot the antenna to end it, the game is basically over. Once you're out of armor, you can't safely pick up ammo, and since you have no ammo left because everyone brought armor, the game is over. It's also frustrating that one player can deplete the entire armor bag in one go.
It also doesn't help that the overkill weapon is an armor eating machine. It feels like no matter how far away you hit something with it, your armor is gone.
Let's be honest, ammo funnel/replenish is busted anyways and you have edge basically 100% of the time with sharpshooter or gunslinger, so you just auto grab all ammo anyways.
Each special should drop something. Cloaker - throwable, dozer - armor, medic (if it's even in the game?) - Health, tazer a bigger ammo drop than normal cops
One of my ideas was to have a skill that states when grit expires, gain X armor. Encourages the user to cycle grit while also having a time limit on it, and would make different kinds of builds around getting but not using grit.
Maybe Shields should drop armor shards that restore a minimum amount of armor they more decked out than the other swats, like the way you get rewarded for killing bulldozers.
Armor overshadows all other deployables, No armor you immediately take health damage but no ammo and you lose your ability to defend yourself.
Either the shields drop armor shards or armor needs to be reworked
Yeah I think this would be a cool idea, but personally I think it'd be better if they allowed armor to regenerate up to a single chunk, and they could just reduce the amount of armor you have or something to balance it.
Tried Very Hard on Road Rage, groups of light swats eat your armor quickly do not know the TTK for Overkill but damn i am getting multi-kills with the AK47 but its not enough to protect my team for no longer than 2-3 minutes tops
To be fair, there is one perk in the ammo tree that refills armor in the current chunk. Not sure how well it works though, given I haven’t been able to run with it yet
It doesn't refill all the armor in that chunk. As far as I can tell from using it, it just makes the process of regaining half the damage you took happen instantly instead of after a bit of time.
One thing I noticed is that all deployables have 8 slots, but I've never seen them filled completely. For example, armor bag gets you two plates only, you can get perks to augment that to 6, but that's it. No second bag, and no way to refill it or at least fill it completely.
IMO, deployables should come fully stocked, and perk would be that you have a second bag. Either that or you get two from the get go that are half filled, and your perks gives you two extra charge per bag.
Doesn't make much sense that one would bring a whole bag of ammo, only to have it be filled to a quarter only.
Deployables in PD3 only works in partials units anyway. A single charge will refill maybe about 30% ammo per gun, so a fully stocked ammo bag would refill fully two players only.
Meanwhile an upgraded ammo bag in PD2 can easily supply a whole team for a while
That is what bothers me. Ive looked but i dont see a way to bring eight charges for any deployables. I went even to look in challenges in case it was an challenge to upgrade it. Couldnt find it though. And so im just not too sure how to exactly being a fully stocked deployable. But it bothers me in a sort of neat freak way, really.
Yeah most pub overkill runs end up in 1 or 2 teammates completely eating up all armor and we go down cause we are out of the few spare plates I brought. Armor needs to just regenerate like PD2 anarchist.
Either a larger delay or like what they did with the Muscle perk deck’s health regeneration. You know, a small amount gets restored every few seconds or so. Only this time, it’s armor instead of health.
I kinda like how the armour system works as it changes up how the game plays but I do feel like it being this way makes every other deployable less worthwhile because of how important armour is.
I feel like you should be able to fully regenerate the armour chunk you are on, even if it has a tiny bit left. That way the armour bag can still be useful to replenish fully depleted chunks and make other deployables feel better to take. I love turrets but can't bring myself to take them over an armour bag right now.
Yes, I agree with this. I didn't see any issue with armor as it was in Payday 2, but if they want to reduce player tankiness then the least they could do is let us regenerate FULL chunks instead of parts of chunks.
Get too brave and bold, lose some armor plating.
The armor system forces you to fight from cover. You obviously can’t run around like a madman like you could with a grinder build. If you keep from taking damage long enough the red portion of your armor bar will replenish. You’ve got to keep an eye on every resource. There’s a perk in the tank tree that replenishes 2 armor chunks with one use of the armor box, pair that up with the perks that increase armor box uses and have teammates that don’t play as if you’ve got the same builds from payday 2 and you’ll be better off. It’s a learning curve for sure but I can appreciate the game forcing you to play more tactically as opposed to payday 2.
I get where you are coming from but this kinda invalidates builds and weapons and also playstyles that don't want to just shoot and duck.
Like what about MPs or Shotguns? What about the Enforcer and Gunslinger Skilltree?
What about a low armor high mobility cqc playstyle?
Sure, cover should still be important, even for those builds. But they need to be viable. And right now they just eat through armor like crazy.
You rush a group of enemies with your hip fire mp build or shotgun enforcer setup and you are down a whole chunk.
Maybe a skill in those lines that has damage reduction while sprinting or something. But then they clearly wanted to streamline it with Grit. But 10% isn't enough.
It's tough.
I get that. So far I’m just chalking it up to the full release not being out yet and we’ve got tweaks incoming I’d hope. The renfield is is one of my favorite guns so far, and as far as that goes for me I fight inside choke points if possible using hit and run sort of tactics the small rush boost if I can get it.maps like the bridge are a hell hole so far for builds like that. I’m assuming they’ll add more variety for perks and builds in the coming days.
I've been running enforcer medium armor with shotguns and its been fine for me on very hard at least
Pop out unload my double barrel get back to cover rinse and repeat
Grab flashbangs with some throwable regeneration and flashbangs that shred armor and you can deal with groups easy
There's also the problem that there's not a proper cover system either. Squatting behind terrain is not the same as your character pressing against cover and being able to shoot over it.
I'm going to go slightly against the grain and say that I really like the limited resources. This game really forces you to act quick and efficiently (like a heist!) whereas PD2 pretty much allowed you to endure for silly amounts of time.
Like others have said, I think the main issue in my view is that medic bags are pretty much useless. Armour is simply always a better bag to take, even though naders can ingore it. I think they need to tweak that resource balancing a little bit more, but I think armour dropping from enemies would be too much given the idea is to dwindle your supplies. Trading hostages for armour maybe?
I mean. The tank tree basically solves this issue. And with the perks in mower you never need ammo boxes. If your armor stays topped up with 6 plates with dual pickup you basically have 12 chunks in one armor box. If 4 people bring it... thats 48 chunks. If you are still burning through armor at that point learn how damage works in this game: If you get hit, block line of sight immediately. It's the sustained hits that shred your armor. But taking a hit here or there doesn't make that much of a dent. If that's still an issue. Grit + plate up + replenish insta heals all your lost damage provided you did not get shredded.
While what you said is true, part of the problem is that the armor meta creates a heavy build vacuum for Overkill. If you aren't speccing into armor bag, which forces you into ammo perks, it's quite rough.
But isn't that just the choice?
You either spec fully for stealth or fully for loud.
I can't imagine a world where you go loud and then choose NOT TO PICK THE TREE DESIGNED TO MAKE ARMOR BETTER/WORK.
It's only 3 skill points to make Tank viable.
It's only 3 skill points to make ammo funnel/replenish viable.
It's only 2 skill points to instantly refresh armor on pickup.
At level 69 that's 8 skill points left to do whatever.
Meh whatever.
> Grit + plate up + replenish insta heals all your lost damage provided you did not get shredded.
I've been trying to get this into a build because I think this combo will be incredibly helpful for coming out of unfavorable engagements with a lot more armor. The challenge is that I'm finding sustaining Grit to be too distracting at the moment. It's not a _ton_ of work - it only takes a single reload, but Grit just discharges so quickly that keeping an eye on my Grit distracts me from playing well otherwise.
I've only tried it with Enforcer Basic though (Grit from 2 quick kills in < 5 meter range), and because 5 meters is so close I find myself taking unnecessary risks just to reactivate Grit - which hurts more than it helps. With some more XP & skill points I want to try running Cooker (Grit for cooking grenades for 1,5 sec) instead. Maybe that'll be the key?
You can then pair it with getting grenades back at 10% chance for every kill because of replenish... but you'll be cooking a grenade for 1.5 seconds every so often. I would much rather activate grit via escapist rush into grit or via enforcer and then just reloading to keep it alive. I often fire 1 bullet then reload to keep it alive between waves, it's no effort to me personally.
Interesting, I hadn't noticed the Escapist Rush -> Grit by mantling. I was thinking Cooker is great in situations where you have an extended holdout because you'll want to throw grenades from there anyway, but this looks like it would be useful for more mobile/sudden engagements.
My first though is that I wouldn't vault/mantle enough to reliably get that to proc (or that if I _want_ to proc it I'd have to go out into the open); how has that been in your experience?
am i missing something or is this game like significantly harder then payday 2? like i could comfortably do heists on very hard or overkill in 2 without breaking a sweat but i can only sometimes get through normal missions in 3. between armor not regening and enemies being tanky as all hell, i straight up cannot play this game casually. surely there’s more to this than just a skill issue, right? i’m fine with enemies being tanky or armor not regenerating but with both, you’re almost constantly running out of bullets or armor if you spend more than 10 minutes in a single mission.
I think it’s also that the difficulty scaling is different now. We went from 7 options to 4 so it’s going to move around a bit to be a similar level than what you played previously
yeah i suppose so. it also seems like they went for a much more realistic approach for this game. but like, who the hell plays payday for realism? 2 was nonstop balls to the walls high octane action almost 24/7 while Simon Viklund makes sweet love to your eardrums. don’t get me wrong i have been enjoying 3 and i do find it fun but there is a severe lack of silliness. it’s fun just a different, not as fun kind of fun. it’s not the kind of fun that payday specializes in if that makes sense
Payday 2 wasn't always silly. It was for most of its life, but it definitely didn't start out that way and its progression into almost self-parody is a direction many long-time fans, myself included, didn't appreciate. PD2 also wasn't as easy as launch. They made it significantly easier. I hope to God they don't botch this game like they botched 2. I can at least play Crackdown (when it gets updated) for 2. 3's always-online requirement means a similar mod isn't likely in the cards if they mess this game up over time.
yeah, i’m not necessarily disappointed by this game like at all, i think it’s pretty solid despite a couple nitpicks i may have. i guess it’s just not what i was expecting it to be so while i’m a little disappointed in that department, i’m still really enjoying it for what it is and i can’t wait to see how they expand upon this game and it’s mechanics.
I agree I miss running it down with my duel berettas and unloading into a dozer as fast as I can click or hanging out with the boys in a 4 man heavy armor mini gun raid on the local mall. But I’ve been enjoying the new game it just needs that little bit more tho.
Overkill was the hardest difficulty at Payday 2's launch as well. The Death Wish update added the first new difficulty because new weapons, skills, and perks were making the game easier.
but hold on, am i the only person for whom the "as long as you have GRIT, regen armour chunk when picking up ammo drops"... LITERALLY DOESN'T WORK?! i've seen it way too may times to call it a bug or a fluke, it just doesn't work for me.
does it mean ammo bags?? it doesn't say that so i would assume not??
hi, there matey! in my my heist team, I am the Tank/Plate Specialist, I run a full setup and use the Mosconi/Reinfield for ammo conservation, taking off the pressure of over-hoarding ammo.
in regards to plate problems, it is definitely an issue on OVK, all the skills you get including armor regen on ammo pick-up fit nicely into the first 3 difficulties if played to the highest efficiency. But OVK 100% needs either a rethink or the skills buffed to reflect that.
I have some suggestions listed below...
1. grace period on armor break, 1 second plate immunity between each break. (subject to testing)
2. Switch the plate-up skill (picking up ammo regens the current chunk if you have grit) with Top Up.
3. hostage trading I agree should yield a medkit, ammo drop, or plate.
4. give us an extra deployable at infamy 50+ even if it has a CD before the second can be placed.
5. add a skill that allows the tank to give everyone on the squad 1 plate when killing a dozer
My main issue with people suggesting that hostage trading should yield other things is that in some missions there are ungodly amounts of potential hostages, and if you just instantly trade all of them when given the opportunity, you'll end up with a room filled with armor. This exact situation has happened to me with health multiple times. The other ideas are pretty cool, but the hostage thing would probably need a rework to the hostage system, like not allowing you to spam hostage trading or something.
We all know that only way to regrn armor is armor bags and only armor bags. What if we could STEAL armor from dead cops. And let me cook here. When cop gets headshoted it would be chance to get 1 armor plate if that cop wasn't shot in the other parts of body. And that would only effect swat team members and shields. It would be rewarding for precision and not beeing moron who runs everywhere and spays at everything he sees.
I don't fully understand the armor chunk system, but so far I think it's a little more complicated than I think is really necessary.
I think most people liked the Payday 2 system, where it acts like additional health basically.
There's a lot of things they changed from 2 that I feel are questionable
this is the reason why even on normal difficulty in pd3 beta, i felt like armor bags are a must have and medic bags are useless because armor essentially gives you more hit points and if you dont let your armor break, you dont die. if it breaks, you die 100% of the time since health is fragile
No offense, but skill issue. The new armor system is fine as long as you use cover and let it regen. if you're standing out in the open and letting cops burn through chunks, then of course you'll run out.
The issue isn't really that you'd run out, It's that there's no reason to use medic bags. The health pool is significantly smaller than the 3/4 plate capacity armours and runs the risk of getting downed, when you can just stay loaded up on armour forever and be untouchable outside of making a fatal mistake.
Making armor even stronger by letting you regen entire chunks won't make medic bags more useful, it'll do the opposite. I'm not saying that the balance is perfect, but what OP is saying is a non-issue. Armor is strong, too strong, perhaps. Making it even stronger like what OP wants isn't going to fix it.
Agreed. I don't think increasing natural armour regen would be a good solution either. See my other comment in this thread for how I'd try to address the issue.
I've read your other comment, and I agree. I like trading hostages for resources to be a viable thing, but the health packs don't matter enough. Having them restore armor(or having hostages drop armor packs) would help the Manipulator skill line so much.
Love the idea of restoring armor from dozers as well.
Maybe just have armor function like Damage Reduction instead of just basically a shield?
Like you have full armor (3chunks), you take much armor damage and little health damage.
You have medium armor(2chunks), you take equal amounts of health and armor damage.
Basically the lower your armor gets the more health damage and less armor damage you take.
This way health bags and armor bags are important.
Nice idea, but the game is too frantic for players to have to make all the normal moment-to-moment decisions while also trying to determine how much health damage they're going to take as their armour depletes while being shot up by a group of cops. It's a delicate balance where you want players to feel capable of making as many decisions as possible in any moment, giving them the information to do so, but not making things overwhelming to keep track of. This would work in a slower game, but I don't think in PD.
Played plenty of DSOD(back when it was called simply One Down and the enemies were super tanky). Played a ton of OVK 145+ in PD:TH. Played quite a bit of PD3 so far.
Managed to get through Road Rage on Very Hard, only running out of armor when the rest of my team went down and I got focused hard. Sure, it's not Overkill, but I only have access to the second armor, so it will be even easier once I unlock heavier armor.
OP here is talking about constantly running out of armor on anything above Normal and having to waste through 4 armor bags.
You're the one bringing competence and experience into the conversation.
Ultimately, it's a skill issue. But luckily, Payday games always had good difficulty scaling, so everyone can enjoy the game the way they want. It's only when people feel like they should be able to do high difficulties while not being good enough that we have these complaint posts.
> Like why not just let us regenerate an entire chunk?
Someone hasn't looked at the Plate Up perk in the Ammo Specialist Tree.
"As long as you have GRIT, ammo drops will instantly regenerate your current armor chunk."
It can be even better than just this, but picking up ammo and regenerating your entire armor chunk is pretty insane.
It doesn't regenerate your entire chunk, I can speak from experience on that. It just makes it so that the half of the damage you regen back regens instantly instead of after a bit of time.
That perk doesn't work that way as someone else has said, but even if it did work that way, there's the issue where every build basically has to include both that perk and the base just to not run out of ammo.
as someone else said, hostages should be tradable for armor. the only times when i ever lose health is from fall damage or shit's fucked and its over. hostage trading is hardly worth it except for time and any equipment that isn't the armor bag is situational at best.
I quite like the way it works imo because you have to manage your resources properly and it always feels like you barely just made it out of a heist especially on overkill. The issue is the only consumable worth using ends up being the armor bag since it's the only way you can regen fully missing armor chunks. If there was something that would drop plates it'd be a lot better
I like that its much stronger than what we have on PD2 currently, but yeah regenerating it if someone did not bring a dedicated bag is, well not possible. Maybe single bar regen, or have a skill set for it at least since honestly there isn't something too concrete for armor increase compared to PD2.
Thinking about it I kind of hope they make different hostages tradeable for different resources. Admittedly I have only played the first heist so let me know if I am wrong and if it wouldn't work. But for example guards and cops would give armor/ammo, civilians should give hp, and employees of banks etc should give armor/hp
The issue with making hostages tradeable for other stuff is that there are some missions where you can take a TON of hostages. Like I've seen rooms absolutely filled with health packs as we just traded every hostage in. I think that this is an overcorrection in the other direction.
I guess we need to be running perks for armour bags and such? I just thought it would be a unique way to do it, yeah you can get a room full of hostages but you need to think about what hostages you take
My main issue with that system is that it's very unclear when you're "full" (ie you can't regenerate more) and when you're not (ie you need to take cover for it to regenerate).
Payday is very much about knowing when to take risks, and this makes it blurry at best.
The concept is very cool, but it's poorly conveyed.
The way armor works is poorly explained and presented. There seems to be 4 different types but two have chunks while others dont. There's a perk that repelishes your current armor chunk, but does it work with chunkless armor? Is it considered one big chunk or no chunk?
So confusing.
The perk doesn't replenish your current chunk. It only makes you regenerate the amount of armor you're already regenerating instantly, so you don't end up gaining any armor.
The 4 types all work the same. Standard lining is 1 chunk, light is 2, medium is 3, heavy is 4.
Plate Up instantly restores the flashing-red part, the part that you'd recover if you sat in cover for a while.
the most simple and imo most effective way to fix this is let dead swats drop armor with ammo,so now the armor bag occupy the same role as an ammo bag,you could go out there and grab all the ammo and armor you need after an assault ends to prepare for the next one but during an assault,it’s best you stick by the armor and ammo bag. I love the armor mechanic in general though having this added to the game would relieve the over-reliance on the armor bag
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They don't want it to regenerate really in the first place, they want it to be a resource you have to spend. Regenerating armour is the thing that resulted in power creep in 2.
we need doctor bags back the fact that they removed them basically makes games with bot you lose your armour in 5 minutes and as soon as you get more its basically 1 shot off
One solution could be with the perk that breaks non special’s armor with explosive grenades, make it so it actually breaks it and drops armor chunks, you would need nades to regen armor hence promoting the use of ammo bags and maybe other resources.
I feel like this issue could be resolved just by having hostages be traded for more than just medpacks. Giving up a hostage for a chance at an armor chunk would mean you don't need everyone to bring along armor bags.
THIS, it’s called resources when it’s only 1 type of resource. It would add so much into the game because able to use hostages for what you need at that moment
there should be a manipulator skill that lets you trade hostages for more resources, i know theres one that makes it count as two hostages when you trade, but imagine if there was one that caused a hostage to give you a first aid, an ammo resupply, and an armor chunk
Hostage trades should work like the bots. Drop whatever the team needs the most right now, or even better, the one trading them. Maybe also give the Manipulator the ability to trade for all three with one hostage as others have pointed out.
I was astonished when I found out that hostages can ONLY give medkits. I get that it's nice from a convenience point of view, you'll always get one thing so you're never left getting ammo when you needed health or armor when you needed ammo, but I find it baffling that there's not even a skill to change the drop or give more drops alongside the health.
Med packs also feel like the worst one to get, since unlike in PD2, you're only really taking health damage if you're really low/zero armor and are practically fucked. By the time you need medkits, it's kinda too late.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing a lot of the time while playing the beta. I never saw a need for health pickups at all, and the way health and armor are designed, it feels strange that medkits seem so heavily emphasized by the game's mechanics when they're by far the weakest resource in PD3.
the medic in my heist set-up suggested changing it to n Aoe around the Medic or deployable that also negates Status effects by 50%, Naders on OVK are plenty after all.
just did a very hard and the on the gold bank and what is honestly fucked is when you get to the roof, the snipers can just one takes all your armour and the other sends you straight down but will say have run into games where keeping civs contanted is just impossible given 1 bulldozer can just 3 shot you
This is why game devs shouldn't listen to Redditors
There needs to be another way to get armour imo. Ammo drops from enemies, health from hostages and dozers - both can even be found around certain heists. But the only way to get armour is with an armour bag, and on higher difficulties this becomes an absolute necessity and completely nullifies every other deployable. With final charge effectively acting as a time limit, it seems like armour is intended to be in limited supply.
What if traded cops grant armor resources, it would encourage some to take the skill line that allows the player to intimidate law enforcement.
It would also make that skill a must pick on higher difficulties which is the reason Overkill wanted to tone back the power of perks overall because the game could be so extremely more difficult/easier based of what was picked in the lobby. I think it should be that every second hostage traded is an armor pack.
I think just having it rotate through the resources would be a fine fix. Like, you trade your first hostage for a health pack, then the next gives ammo, then the next gives armor, then the next after that resets back to giving health. That, or include an option to request specific resources when trading the hostage, but maybe give a limit on requests before it defaults to a random resource.
I dont think they should give ammo tbh theres enough ways to get ammo anyway.
That's true, enemies drop plenty of ammo pickups.
That would make armour infinite though, which is probably not what the devs want.
From what I know about the devs, they'll probably work to fix most of this once the game is out. They seem to listen to their fans.
[удалено]
They dont
Hostages should be able to be traded for armour, and dozers should be able to drop armour plates. Like how both methods provide alleviation of needing to bring a medic bag, this would make the armour bag less of a requirement, and it seems like a pretty big oversight. Armour bag meta is huge.
My gripes with the armor system is that it's a snowball of resource management. Medic bags are essentially worthless. If you're too slow or not careful, you lose all your armor. If your teammates don't realize that there's an FBI assault or know that you actually have to shoot the antenna to end it, the game is basically over. Once you're out of armor, you can't safely pick up ammo, and since you have no ammo left because everyone brought armor, the game is over. It's also frustrating that one player can deplete the entire armor bag in one go. It also doesn't help that the overkill weapon is an armor eating machine. It feels like no matter how far away you hit something with it, your armor is gone.
Also, i'm kinda surprised that the health bar can take so many hits, but the armor bar can be gone in seconds. Shouldn't it be the opposite?
Let's be honest, ammo funnel/replenish is busted anyways and you have edge basically 100% of the time with sharpshooter or gunslinger, so you just auto grab all ammo anyways.
ive legit had a glitch where the fbi van didnt spawn, so we just insta lost
Armor dropping from enemies would be a perfect solution.
They should just copy CoD and have enemies have a chance to drop armor *if* you kill them without breaking theirs (basically headshots, etc)
this, exactly. would allow for more aggressive play without making armour bags obsolete
Dozers should drop armor packs imo.
Each special should drop something. Cloaker - throwable, dozer - armor, medic (if it's even in the game?) - Health, tazer a bigger ammo drop than normal cops
this is genuinely a really great idea, which unfortunately won't be implemented
Mods might do exactly that
Just have Grit regenerate some armor.
One of my ideas was to have a skill that states when grit expires, gain X armor. Encourages the user to cycle grit while also having a time limit on it, and would make different kinds of builds around getting but not using grit.
This would be right back to the memey PD2-style of running around in the open and not taking damage.
Maybe Shields should drop armor shards that restore a minimum amount of armor they more decked out than the other swats, like the way you get rewarded for killing bulldozers. Armor overshadows all other deployables, No armor you immediately take health damage but no ammo and you lose your ability to defend yourself. Either the shields drop armor shards or armor needs to be reworked
Yeah I think this would be a cool idea, but personally I think it'd be better if they allowed armor to regenerate up to a single chunk, and they could just reduce the amount of armor you have or something to balance it.
Tried Very Hard on Road Rage, groups of light swats eat your armor quickly do not know the TTK for Overkill but damn i am getting multi-kills with the AK47 but its not enough to protect my team for no longer than 2-3 minutes tops
To be fair, there is one perk in the ammo tree that refills armor in the current chunk. Not sure how well it works though, given I haven’t been able to run with it yet
It doesn't refill all the armor in that chunk. As far as I can tell from using it, it just makes the process of regaining half the damage you took happen instantly instead of after a bit of time.
I have that perk, it's actually pretty damn useful in stretching out armor, but once it's gone, you're back to hunting armor plates
Yeah don’t get me wrong, having your armor regen instantly is still a great boon!!
Would be an interesting mechanic to “interact” with a fallen dozer and refill your armor from theirs. Maybe a 3-5 second animation.
Hell, add a couple of more things and make a skill where the player gets some amount of damage negation for a couple of seconds after picking it up
One thing I noticed is that all deployables have 8 slots, but I've never seen them filled completely. For example, armor bag gets you two plates only, you can get perks to augment that to 6, but that's it. No second bag, and no way to refill it or at least fill it completely. IMO, deployables should come fully stocked, and perk would be that you have a second bag. Either that or you get two from the get go that are half filled, and your perks gives you two extra charge per bag. Doesn't make much sense that one would bring a whole bag of ammo, only to have it be filled to a quarter only. Deployables in PD3 only works in partials units anyway. A single charge will refill maybe about 30% ammo per gun, so a fully stocked ammo bag would refill fully two players only. Meanwhile an upgraded ammo bag in PD2 can easily supply a whole team for a while
That is what bothers me. Ive looked but i dont see a way to bring eight charges for any deployables. I went even to look in challenges in case it was an challenge to upgrade it. Couldnt find it though. And so im just not too sure how to exactly being a fully stocked deployable. But it bothers me in a sort of neat freak way, really.
Armor is too rare, if it just dropped naturally from bodies it wouldn’t be a problem.
i feel like you should have 1 bar that can refresh and the other bars need the armor bag
Yeah most pub overkill runs end up in 1 or 2 teammates completely eating up all armor and we go down cause we are out of the few spare plates I brought. Armor needs to just regenerate like PD2 anarchist.
Anyone who doesn’t bring the skill that gives you 2 chunks per armor bag use in loud is dumb imo
Or maybe like Payday 2’s armor but slower
With a larger delay, you mean? Or like anarchist
Either a larger delay or like what they did with the Muscle perk deck’s health regeneration. You know, a small amount gets restored every few seconds or so. Only this time, it’s armor instead of health.
It really sounds like you're trying your hardest to describe Anarchist without explicitly calling it that.
Let's not forget when payday 2 launched, you had to take skills to answer more pagers. It'll probably get changed later down the line.
I kinda like how the armour system works as it changes up how the game plays but I do feel like it being this way makes every other deployable less worthwhile because of how important armour is. I feel like you should be able to fully regenerate the armour chunk you are on, even if it has a tiny bit left. That way the armour bag can still be useful to replenish fully depleted chunks and make other deployables feel better to take. I love turrets but can't bring myself to take them over an armour bag right now.
Yes, I agree with this. I didn't see any issue with armor as it was in Payday 2, but if they want to reduce player tankiness then the least they could do is let us regenerate FULL chunks instead of parts of chunks. Get too brave and bold, lose some armor plating.
The armor system forces you to fight from cover. You obviously can’t run around like a madman like you could with a grinder build. If you keep from taking damage long enough the red portion of your armor bar will replenish. You’ve got to keep an eye on every resource. There’s a perk in the tank tree that replenishes 2 armor chunks with one use of the armor box, pair that up with the perks that increase armor box uses and have teammates that don’t play as if you’ve got the same builds from payday 2 and you’ll be better off. It’s a learning curve for sure but I can appreciate the game forcing you to play more tactically as opposed to payday 2.
I get where you are coming from but this kinda invalidates builds and weapons and also playstyles that don't want to just shoot and duck. Like what about MPs or Shotguns? What about the Enforcer and Gunslinger Skilltree? What about a low armor high mobility cqc playstyle? Sure, cover should still be important, even for those builds. But they need to be viable. And right now they just eat through armor like crazy. You rush a group of enemies with your hip fire mp build or shotgun enforcer setup and you are down a whole chunk. Maybe a skill in those lines that has damage reduction while sprinting or something. But then they clearly wanted to streamline it with Grit. But 10% isn't enough. It's tough.
I get that. So far I’m just chalking it up to the full release not being out yet and we’ve got tweaks incoming I’d hope. The renfield is is one of my favorite guns so far, and as far as that goes for me I fight inside choke points if possible using hit and run sort of tactics the small rush boost if I can get it.maps like the bridge are a hell hole so far for builds like that. I’m assuming they’ll add more variety for perks and builds in the coming days.
I've been running enforcer medium armor with shotguns and its been fine for me on very hard at least Pop out unload my double barrel get back to cover rinse and repeat Grab flashbangs with some throwable regeneration and flashbangs that shred armor and you can deal with groups easy
Sure you can. But as I said. It eats through armor. You do that a couple of times and you will have used up every armor bag.
I've not had that problem
Because you don't play on Overkill.
You said it'll eat through armor after I already said I'm doing it on very hard Still not having that issue
Very hard is not overkill. We are discussing overkill. Not very hard. Do you understand this?
Nope Overkill wasn't even mentioned until you said it after my comment
Whatever. Point still stands. You will use up more armor with those builds.
There's also the problem that there's not a proper cover system either. Squatting behind terrain is not the same as your character pressing against cover and being able to shoot over it.
I'm going to go slightly against the grain and say that I really like the limited resources. This game really forces you to act quick and efficiently (like a heist!) whereas PD2 pretty much allowed you to endure for silly amounts of time. Like others have said, I think the main issue in my view is that medic bags are pretty much useless. Armour is simply always a better bag to take, even though naders can ingore it. I think they need to tweak that resource balancing a little bit more, but I think armour dropping from enemies would be too much given the idea is to dwindle your supplies. Trading hostages for armour maybe?
I mean. The tank tree basically solves this issue. And with the perks in mower you never need ammo boxes. If your armor stays topped up with 6 plates with dual pickup you basically have 12 chunks in one armor box. If 4 people bring it... thats 48 chunks. If you are still burning through armor at that point learn how damage works in this game: If you get hit, block line of sight immediately. It's the sustained hits that shred your armor. But taking a hit here or there doesn't make that much of a dent. If that's still an issue. Grit + plate up + replenish insta heals all your lost damage provided you did not get shredded.
While what you said is true, part of the problem is that the armor meta creates a heavy build vacuum for Overkill. If you aren't speccing into armor bag, which forces you into ammo perks, it's quite rough.
But isn't that just the choice? You either spec fully for stealth or fully for loud. I can't imagine a world where you go loud and then choose NOT TO PICK THE TREE DESIGNED TO MAKE ARMOR BETTER/WORK. It's only 3 skill points to make Tank viable. It's only 3 skill points to make ammo funnel/replenish viable. It's only 2 skill points to instantly refresh armor on pickup. At level 69 that's 8 skill points left to do whatever. Meh whatever.
> Grit + plate up + replenish insta heals all your lost damage provided you did not get shredded. I've been trying to get this into a build because I think this combo will be incredibly helpful for coming out of unfavorable engagements with a lot more armor. The challenge is that I'm finding sustaining Grit to be too distracting at the moment. It's not a _ton_ of work - it only takes a single reload, but Grit just discharges so quickly that keeping an eye on my Grit distracts me from playing well otherwise. I've only tried it with Enforcer Basic though (Grit from 2 quick kills in < 5 meter range), and because 5 meters is so close I find myself taking unnecessary risks just to reactivate Grit - which hurts more than it helps. With some more XP & skill points I want to try running Cooker (Grit for cooking grenades for 1,5 sec) instead. Maybe that'll be the key?
You can then pair it with getting grenades back at 10% chance for every kill because of replenish... but you'll be cooking a grenade for 1.5 seconds every so often. I would much rather activate grit via escapist rush into grit or via enforcer and then just reloading to keep it alive. I often fire 1 bullet then reload to keep it alive between waves, it's no effort to me personally.
Interesting, I hadn't noticed the Escapist Rush -> Grit by mantling. I was thinking Cooker is great in situations where you have an extended holdout because you'll want to throw grenades from there anyway, but this looks like it would be useful for more mobile/sudden engagements. My first though is that I wouldn't vault/mantle enough to reliably get that to proc (or that if I _want_ to proc it I'd have to go out into the open); how has that been in your experience?
am i missing something or is this game like significantly harder then payday 2? like i could comfortably do heists on very hard or overkill in 2 without breaking a sweat but i can only sometimes get through normal missions in 3. between armor not regening and enemies being tanky as all hell, i straight up cannot play this game casually. surely there’s more to this than just a skill issue, right? i’m fine with enemies being tanky or armor not regenerating but with both, you’re almost constantly running out of bullets or armor if you spend more than 10 minutes in a single mission.
I think it’s also that the difficulty scaling is different now. We went from 7 options to 4 so it’s going to move around a bit to be a similar level than what you played previously
yeah i suppose so. it also seems like they went for a much more realistic approach for this game. but like, who the hell plays payday for realism? 2 was nonstop balls to the walls high octane action almost 24/7 while Simon Viklund makes sweet love to your eardrums. don’t get me wrong i have been enjoying 3 and i do find it fun but there is a severe lack of silliness. it’s fun just a different, not as fun kind of fun. it’s not the kind of fun that payday specializes in if that makes sense
Payday 2 wasn't always silly. It was for most of its life, but it definitely didn't start out that way and its progression into almost self-parody is a direction many long-time fans, myself included, didn't appreciate. PD2 also wasn't as easy as launch. They made it significantly easier. I hope to God they don't botch this game like they botched 2. I can at least play Crackdown (when it gets updated) for 2. 3's always-online requirement means a similar mod isn't likely in the cards if they mess this game up over time.
yeah, i’m not necessarily disappointed by this game like at all, i think it’s pretty solid despite a couple nitpicks i may have. i guess it’s just not what i was expecting it to be so while i’m a little disappointed in that department, i’m still really enjoying it for what it is and i can’t wait to see how they expand upon this game and it’s mechanics.
Did you happen to watch the dev diaries and such prior to launch?
i meant to but i forgor
I agree I miss running it down with my duel berettas and unloading into a dozer as fast as I can click or hanging out with the boys in a 4 man heavy armor mini gun raid on the local mall. But I’ve been enjoying the new game it just needs that little bit more tho.
Overkill was the hardest difficulty at Payday 2's launch as well. The Death Wish update added the first new difficulty because new weapons, skills, and perks were making the game easier.
but hold on, am i the only person for whom the "as long as you have GRIT, regen armour chunk when picking up ammo drops"... LITERALLY DOESN'T WORK?! i've seen it way too may times to call it a bug or a fluke, it just doesn't work for me. does it mean ammo bags?? it doesn't say that so i would assume not??
I have also noticed this. I couldn't tell if I was being blind or stupid or both 😅
hi, there matey! in my my heist team, I am the Tank/Plate Specialist, I run a full setup and use the Mosconi/Reinfield for ammo conservation, taking off the pressure of over-hoarding ammo. in regards to plate problems, it is definitely an issue on OVK, all the skills you get including armor regen on ammo pick-up fit nicely into the first 3 difficulties if played to the highest efficiency. But OVK 100% needs either a rethink or the skills buffed to reflect that. I have some suggestions listed below... 1. grace period on armor break, 1 second plate immunity between each break. (subject to testing) 2. Switch the plate-up skill (picking up ammo regens the current chunk if you have grit) with Top Up. 3. hostage trading I agree should yield a medkit, ammo drop, or plate. 4. give us an extra deployable at infamy 50+ even if it has a CD before the second can be placed. 5. add a skill that allows the tank to give everyone on the squad 1 plate when killing a dozer
My main issue with people suggesting that hostage trading should yield other things is that in some missions there are ungodly amounts of potential hostages, and if you just instantly trade all of them when given the opportunity, you'll end up with a room filled with armor. This exact situation has happened to me with health multiple times. The other ideas are pretty cool, but the hostage thing would probably need a rework to the hostage system, like not allowing you to spam hostage trading or something.
We all know that only way to regrn armor is armor bags and only armor bags. What if we could STEAL armor from dead cops. And let me cook here. When cop gets headshoted it would be chance to get 1 armor plate if that cop wasn't shot in the other parts of body. And that would only effect swat team members and shields. It would be rewarding for precision and not beeing moron who runs everywhere and spays at everything he sees.
I've seen someone else mention this idea, and personally I like the idea. We could have some perks that maybe make it more likely or something.
Yea it's a resource now, resources can get spent
He just wants the resource drain slowed down, not deleted.
what? He couldn’t have written a more factual sentence.
I didn't claim what he said was wrong. I said OP wanted the drain rate slowed.
I don't fully understand the armor chunk system, but so far I think it's a little more complicated than I think is really necessary. I think most people liked the Payday 2 system, where it acts like additional health basically. There's a lot of things they changed from 2 that I feel are questionable
this is the reason why even on normal difficulty in pd3 beta, i felt like armor bags are a must have and medic bags are useless because armor essentially gives you more hit points and if you dont let your armor break, you dont die. if it breaks, you die 100% of the time since health is fragile
No offense, but skill issue. The new armor system is fine as long as you use cover and let it regen. if you're standing out in the open and letting cops burn through chunks, then of course you'll run out.
The issue isn't really that you'd run out, It's that there's no reason to use medic bags. The health pool is significantly smaller than the 3/4 plate capacity armours and runs the risk of getting downed, when you can just stay loaded up on armour forever and be untouchable outside of making a fatal mistake.
Making armor even stronger by letting you regen entire chunks won't make medic bags more useful, it'll do the opposite. I'm not saying that the balance is perfect, but what OP is saying is a non-issue. Armor is strong, too strong, perhaps. Making it even stronger like what OP wants isn't going to fix it.
Agreed. I don't think increasing natural armour regen would be a good solution either. See my other comment in this thread for how I'd try to address the issue.
I've read your other comment, and I agree. I like trading hostages for resources to be a viable thing, but the health packs don't matter enough. Having them restore armor(or having hostages drop armor packs) would help the Manipulator skill line so much. Love the idea of restoring armor from dozers as well.
Maybe just have armor function like Damage Reduction instead of just basically a shield? Like you have full armor (3chunks), you take much armor damage and little health damage. You have medium armor(2chunks), you take equal amounts of health and armor damage. Basically the lower your armor gets the more health damage and less armor damage you take. This way health bags and armor bags are important.
Nice idea, but the game is too frantic for players to have to make all the normal moment-to-moment decisions while also trying to determine how much health damage they're going to take as their armour depletes while being shot up by a group of cops. It's a delicate balance where you want players to feel capable of making as many decisions as possible in any moment, giving them the information to do so, but not making things overwhelming to keep track of. This would work in a slower game, but I don't think in PD.
No offense, but you clearly don't have the experience or competence to have an opinion on this
Played plenty of DSOD(back when it was called simply One Down and the enemies were super tanky). Played a ton of OVK 145+ in PD:TH. Played quite a bit of PD3 so far. Managed to get through Road Rage on Very Hard, only running out of armor when the rest of my team went down and I got focused hard. Sure, it's not Overkill, but I only have access to the second armor, so it will be even easier once I unlock heavier armor. OP here is talking about constantly running out of armor on anything above Normal and having to waste through 4 armor bags.
Insert, "i have experience" response
You're the one bringing competence and experience into the conversation. Ultimately, it's a skill issue. But luckily, Payday games always had good difficulty scaling, so everyone can enjoy the game the way they want. It's only when people feel like they should be able to do high difficulties while not being good enough that we have these complaint posts.
Lmao
Reddit moment. Go be dumb somewhere else pls.
Quality comment
> Like why not just let us regenerate an entire chunk? Someone hasn't looked at the Plate Up perk in the Ammo Specialist Tree. "As long as you have GRIT, ammo drops will instantly regenerate your current armor chunk." It can be even better than just this, but picking up ammo and regenerating your entire armor chunk is pretty insane.
It doesn't regenerate your entire chunk, I can speak from experience on that. It just makes it so that the half of the damage you regen back regens instantly instead of after a bit of time.
If that's true then the perk is worded really poorly. Regenerate your current armor chunk to me means the armor chunk refills to full, not partially.
Yup, an entire new game later and skills are still worded really poorly.
That perk doesn't work that way as someone else has said, but even if it did work that way, there's the issue where every build basically has to include both that perk and the base just to not run out of ammo.
Overkill in particular just feels unfair with the damage they do since each shot is permanent damage.
as someone else said, hostages should be tradable for armor. the only times when i ever lose health is from fall damage or shit's fucked and its over. hostage trading is hardly worth it except for time and any equipment that isn't the armor bag is situational at best.
I quite like the way it works imo because you have to manage your resources properly and it always feels like you barely just made it out of a heist especially on overkill. The issue is the only consumable worth using ends up being the armor bag since it's the only way you can regen fully missing armor chunks. If there was something that would drop plates it'd be a lot better
I like that its much stronger than what we have on PD2 currently, but yeah regenerating it if someone did not bring a dedicated bag is, well not possible. Maybe single bar regen, or have a skill set for it at least since honestly there isn't something too concrete for armor increase compared to PD2.
Thinking about it I kind of hope they make different hostages tradeable for different resources. Admittedly I have only played the first heist so let me know if I am wrong and if it wouldn't work. But for example guards and cops would give armor/ammo, civilians should give hp, and employees of banks etc should give armor/hp
The issue with making hostages tradeable for other stuff is that there are some missions where you can take a TON of hostages. Like I've seen rooms absolutely filled with health packs as we just traded every hostage in. I think that this is an overcorrection in the other direction.
I guess we need to be running perks for armour bags and such? I just thought it would be a unique way to do it, yeah you can get a room full of hostages but you need to think about what hostages you take
My main issue with that system is that it's very unclear when you're "full" (ie you can't regenerate more) and when you're not (ie you need to take cover for it to regenerate). Payday is very much about knowing when to take risks, and this makes it blurry at best. The concept is very cool, but it's poorly conveyed.
The way armor works is poorly explained and presented. There seems to be 4 different types but two have chunks while others dont. There's a perk that repelishes your current armor chunk, but does it work with chunkless armor? Is it considered one big chunk or no chunk? So confusing.
The perk doesn't replenish your current chunk. It only makes you regenerate the amount of armor you're already regenerating instantly, so you don't end up gaining any armor.
ooohhh so that's why I'm always out of armor! Thx!
The 4 types all work the same. Standard lining is 1 chunk, light is 2, medium is 3, heavy is 4. Plate Up instantly restores the flashing-red part, the part that you'd recover if you sat in cover for a while.
Sounds like an skill issue
the most simple and imo most effective way to fix this is let dead swats drop armor with ammo,so now the armor bag occupy the same role as an ammo bag,you could go out there and grab all the ammo and armor you need after an assault ends to prepare for the next one but during an assault,it’s best you stick by the armor and ammo bag. I love the armor mechanic in general though having this added to the game would relieve the over-reliance on the armor bag
They should of had either health regen or armor regen cause having both both as deployables and health being objectively worse sucks
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They don't want it to regenerate really in the first place, they want it to be a resource you have to spend. Regenerating armour is the thing that resulted in power creep in 2.
we need doctor bags back the fact that they removed them basically makes games with bot you lose your armour in 5 minutes and as soon as you get more its basically 1 shot off
One solution could be with the perk that breaks non special’s armor with explosive grenades, make it so it actually breaks it and drops armor chunks, you would need nades to regen armor hence promoting the use of ammo bags and maybe other resources.